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Ichneumon
2009-05-23, 03:55 PM
Would you feel society treats men/boys different from women/girls? I'm not just talking about sexism, but also about people's general view towards individuals of certain gender.

I have to do a school paper on something like this and I would just like some introductory views of different people on this before I start doing my research.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 04:18 PM
I think it would be entirely naive to think that gender discrimination, both malevolent and benevolent, of some kind affects all forms of interpersonal relationships. Considering the huge amount of factors that influence our perceptions of other people to a greater and lesser degree - personality, intellect, social class and grouping, ethnicity (which is not to say everyone is racist, but just like we tend to pick up generalised perceptions of social groups, we tend to do the same with ethnic groups. Everyone I meet assumes I can hold huge amounts of drink purely due to my Irish ethnicity)... even completely superfluous details like where we met them - I think it's impossible to honestly claim that anyone treats men and women truly equally.

I certainly don't, being a complete sexist, a male chauvinistic pig of the highest order... that's right, I hold doors open for women, carry their bags for them and even stand between them and the road when walking down the street.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-23, 04:23 PM
This is definitely true, but it's hard to think of examples that aren't arguable. Men are definitely expected to be less emotional, but are expected to be more open about their personal lives.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 04:26 PM
This is definitely true, but it's hard to think of examples that aren't arguable. Men are definitely expected to be less emotional, but are expected to be more open about their personal lives.

I think the reason that examples are arguable is because your prejudices regarding gender vary from society to society, culture to culture and person to person.

Although... I've just had me an idea...


A Man Is Not A Virgin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AManIsNotAVirgin)
All Guys Want Cheerleaders (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGuysWantCheerleaders)
Men Have No Self Control When Attractive Women Walk By (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DistractedByTheSexy)
Men Are Uncultured (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreUncultured)

Women Are Monogamous (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyGirlIsNotASlut)
All Girls Want Bad Boys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGirlsWantBadBoys)

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-23, 04:33 PM
Gender, or sex?

Because most people don't even care about the gender of the people they are interacting with, or whether they even have one. All they see is a human with a penis or a vagina (and boobs, don't forget boobs).

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 04:44 PM
(and boobs, don't forget boobs).

Hah, like we could ever forget them...

:smallsmile:

GoC
2009-05-23, 05:11 PM
Isn't it obvious that your gender matters in society?:smallconfused:
Treating everyone the same is both impossible and inadvisable. Circumstances such as whether the individual you're speaking to is a possible mate affect how you treat them.
A person is very influenced (maybe even defined) by their upbringing and that upbringing does not treat the two sexes the same.
It's likely that even the small things (such as PMS:smalltongue:) can have a difference in how you percieve and react to things.

Hmm...
From an evolutionary perspective is it possible that men and women have evolved to have slightly different brains? Niether superior to the other but better at different things.

Dogmantra
2009-05-23, 05:25 PM
Hmm...
From an evolutionary perspective is it possible that men and women have evolved to have slightly different brains? Niether superior to the other but better at different things.

Not only is it possible, I'm pretty sure it has happened. I seem to recall reading something about females having more grey matter than males, who have more white matter, or vice versa.

potatocubed
2009-05-23, 05:34 PM
I think "Does gender affect how people treat you?" is a trivial yes. There are plenty more interesting questions related to this issue along the lines of "Why does gender affect how people treat you?" or "To what extent, if any, can these differences be justifed by the physiological differences between men and women?"

GoC
2009-05-23, 05:37 PM
I think "Does gender affect how people treat you?" is a trivial yes. There are plenty more interesting questions related to this issue along the lines of "Why does gender affect how people treat you?" or "To what extent, if any, can these differences be justifed by the physiological differences between men and women?"

Or even: Which differences need to be justifed and which are harmless?

Recaiden
2009-05-23, 05:38 PM
I think "Does gender affect how people treat you?" is a trivial yes. There are plenty more interesting questions related to this issue along the lines of "Why does gender affect how people treat you?" or "To what extent, if any, can these differences be justifed by the physiological differences between men and women?"

Or even, how has it affected you?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 05:40 PM
Hmm...
From an evolutionary perspective is it possible that men and women have evolved to have slightly different brains? Niether superior to the other but better at different things.

Studies regarding the subject are innumerable. The general consensus is that, quite frankly, men's and women's brains are different.

An interesting fact, actually - did you know that women, on average, have a wider field of vision than men? Men actually have slight tunnel vision.
Which allegedly is why men turn their heads and look at passing women, then get slapped by their partner. Whereas women do exactly the same thing but, not having to turn their heads to see the same amount, don't get caught.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-23, 05:47 PM
I still tend to place men/women in certain gender roles. I see a girl acting flamboyant, I think nothing of it. I see a man do it, probably gay.

Also, I had an idea for a thread kind of like this awhile back. I don't mean to side track this one, but what if gender traits were undetectable. Both men and women had the same facial and body structures. Genitals would be different and how they are now for men and women, but nothing else about them could be used to distinguish gender. Basically, an entire planet of V's. How do you think relationships would change? Trying ask someone out, hanging out with "the guys" and not knowing there's a chick amongst you (or vice versa).

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 05:53 PM
Also, I had an idea for a thread kind of like this awhile back. I don't mean to side track this one, but what if gender traits were undetectable. Both men and women had the same facial and body structures. Genitals would be different and how they are now for men and women, but nothing else about them could be used to distinguish gender. Basically, an entire planet of V's. How do you think relationships would change? Trying ask someone out, hanging out with "the guys" and not knowing there's a chick amongst you (or vice versa).

I think that people would probably dress deliberately to denote gender.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-23, 06:08 PM
I think that people would probably dress deliberately to denote gender.

Not necessarily; People dress in what they're comfortable in. Sometimes that isn't the norm for their gender. There was once a time when women only wore dresses and men had short hair. That's not the case any more.

GoC
2009-05-23, 06:13 PM
I think that people would probably dress deliberately to denote gender.

Correction: They dress like their gender when on the lookout for a possible mate. With humans this is likely to be almost always.:smalltongue:

Faulty
2009-05-23, 06:16 PM
I think it's blatantly obvious that men and women are treated differently, and women often get the shaft.

Toastkart
2009-05-23, 06:18 PM
Would you feel society treats men/boys different from women/girls? I'm not just talking about sexism, but also about people's general view towards individuals of certain gender.

Men and women are treated distinctly differently in a lot of ways, and not so differently in others. This starts happening even before you're born. Just take a look in a toy store and see the vast difference between the kinds of toys boys are expected to play with and the kinds of toys that girls are expected to play with.

Princess fever reigns for girls (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30827260//) and What's wrong with Cinderella? (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/magazine/24princess.t.html) are both pretty good articles.

As for all the talk about differences between men's and women's brains, chances are that, like most differences between the sexes, there are more differences within one group than there are differences between groups.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-23, 06:20 PM
I think it's blatantly obvious that men and women are treated differently, and women often get the shaft.

Am I he only one that thought double entendre? :smallbiggrin:

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 06:27 PM
I think it's blatantly obvious that men and women are treated differently, and women often get the shaft.

That's true. I hate to admit it, but I only ever give the shaft to women and never to men.



Am I he only one that thought double entendre?

:smallwink:

Nameless
2009-05-23, 06:33 PM
Men and women are treated very differently. Although men and women officially have equal rights in this country, I find that itís not true socially. On of the things I find as a guy is the annoying issue of ďnot being allowed to touch a girlĒ. I can literally pat a girl on the shoulder and all of a sudden Iím a freaking rapist. The other thing that annoys me a little, though I donít pay much attention to is the ďboys canít hit girlsĒ thing. Iím sorry but if a girl hits me Iím just as likely to hit them back as if it was a boy. I honestly thought this was just a stupid school playground thing, but it appears that it isnít.
Another thing that applies to both women and men is that they are both expected to act, dress behave and contribute to society in certain ways, and if a man or women does what the other is expected to do then thereís something wrong with them.
I try not to pay to much attention to any of these things, and I know all these thing seem pretty pathetic- but it doesnít matter what people (including myself ) say , everyone cares about what others of them to a certain degree and itís something that can be pretty difficult to get over.

Coidzor
2009-05-23, 06:52 PM
Well, depending upon where one goes in life, it can be quite disturbing to have someone either directly say or at least imply that due to one being a young man, one is little more than a genetic syringe and liable to commit rape at the drop of a hat to boot.

Suffice to say, whatever women get in this life, they're not likely to be called out for being or wanting to be rapists due to their genitals.

I find such behavior to be rather rude, myself.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 06:54 PM
I get funny looks if I take my little sister to the park.

That is what is wrong with society.

GoC
2009-05-23, 07:05 PM
As for all the talk about differences between men's and women's brains, chances are that, like most differences between the sexes, there are more differences within one group than there are differences between groups.
We're a planet of 6 billion. I would be very surprised if this were not the case.


I get funny looks if I take my little sister to the park.
That is what is wrong with society.
Yeah... Our screwed up world.:smallfrown:

Now here's a difficult question: Who has the better deal? Men or women? Or are both sexes being screwed by eachother?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 07:08 PM
Now here's a difficult question: Who has the better deal? Men or women? Or are both sexes being screwed by eachother?

That depends what you want from life.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 07:30 PM
Not having taken any time to think this post out, my knee jerk response is blind, homicidal rage. :smallfurious: I've been raised by females, most of my closest friends growing up were female, and I LIKE doing activities that females stereotypically do together (sans going to the restroom, usually. I mean, there WAS the one time they pulled me into the ladies' room to put make-up on me, but that's a story for another time). That being the case, I OBVIOUSLY have to be either flaming gay (an accusation that got me thrown out of the private school I grew up in) or there is something equally as "wrong" with me. Such a view killed my self-esteem as a kid and, to this very day, usually leaves me alienated from my male peers. Gender "roles", or rather the default view thereof, are always (if only a small one) part of how people view each other. It's just the nature of the beast, and will only change in time.

DraPrime
2009-05-23, 07:34 PM
The other thing that annoys me a little, though I donít pay much attention to is the ďboys canít hit girlsĒ thing. Iím sorry but if a girl hits me Iím just as likely to hit them back as if it was a boy. I honestly thought this was just a stupid school playground thing, but it appears that it isnít.


I hate this too. If women want equal rights and such, they can damn well take a punch. It's not that hard.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 07:42 PM
^I still have trouble with this one. I see the reason behind the stance, but I still can't do more than play strike females.

DraPrime
2009-05-23, 07:44 PM
^I still have trouble with this one. I see the reason behind the stance, but I still can't do more than play strike females.

Well, I would typically only play strike females too, but if they anger me enough that I want to hit them, I'm not going to give the sudden protection.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 07:52 PM
I suppose I HAVE worked around the issue though. My fighting style has always been, especially since I got into martial arts, more along the lines of grappling and other such debilitating methods that are NOT striking. Male, female, they all tap out the same in a wrist lock. I just have a damnable hard time causing females pain of any sort unless it's a matter of life or death.

Poppy Appletree
2009-05-23, 07:53 PM
That's true. I hate to admit it, but I only ever give the shaft to women and never to men.

I just wanted to reply to this from a view that would probably be considered opposite: I'm male, and the vast majority of my friends are female* - towards males, my disposition is usually a tad hostile unless they're quite passive. When I am consciously aware of some discrimination, it is against males and for females.

* Interesting point: On the Internet, I tend to talk more with males and less with females - this could be because, having a rather negative history with people, and males especially, I am generally wary when in proximity to others, though I am more inclined to trust females.

GoC
2009-05-23, 07:54 PM
The "don't hit girls" thing has a reason. Female homo sapiens are generally smaller, weaker and slightly more fragile. Of course, these same concerns should apply to smaller boys too...
I'd love some consistency in society.

EDIT: Just thought of something. Fighting can often devolve into a grapple and people might not believe you weren't feeling her up (in fact you might even "discretely" try it while you're down there).

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 07:55 PM
Poppy: I find that I default to viewing males as being dumb brutes. Sure, that's not ALWAYS the case, but the "guilty-until-proven-innocent" method seems to cull the herd of my social circle nicely.

Coidzor
2009-05-23, 07:57 PM
We're a planet of 6 billion. I would be very surprised if this were not the case.


Yeah... Our screwed up world.:smallfrown:

Now here's a difficult question: Who has the better deal? Men or women? Or are both sexes being screwed by each other?

Depends on how adept/comfortable you are with the box you've got to play in. If you're a man's man and have the charisma and social cunning then you can easily have a very good time of it with what you enjoy with society not noticing/caring unless you manage to do something exemplary or praise-worthy. A man's "goal" is to 1. get women, 2. get money, 3. become a patriarch of his family, and while YMMV even if that's the path 'you' gravitate towards, it's much clearer for men as the accepted way of things.

If you're a woman and fit nicely into any of the major gender roles, there's still the fact that said gender role is changed/changing and there's no clear "path" to follow like there is for men. Since the only thing, as far as I can tell, being told to women is to be everything: monetarily successful, genetically successful, maternally successful, etc.

Of course, this is all colored by my own perspective and experience, so I may be wrong about what's expected of my female counterparts.

Hmm, a bit rarer to have happen, but I am assumed to be less intelligent than I am on occasion due to being male and/or being big (6'+)

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 07:58 PM
I only ever give the shaft to women and never to men.

I just wanted to reply to this from a view that would probably be considered opposite: I'm male, and the vast majority of my friends are female* - towards males, my disposition is usually a tad hostile unless they're quite passive. When I am consciously aware of some discrimination, it is against males and for females.

You just totally missed the innuendo, didn't you?
:smallwink:

GoC
2009-05-23, 08:00 PM
Poppy: I find that I default to viewing males as being dumb brutes. Sure, that's not ALWAYS the case, but the "guilty-until-proven-innocent" method seems to cull the herd of my social circle nicely.

Wow. That's... not nice.
Will you at least give every person an equal chance of a trial and ignore your biases in the meantime? Oops. I just asked a human to ignore his biases, something completely impossible.:smallfrown:

Poppy Appletree
2009-05-23, 08:03 PM
Poppy: I find that I default to viewing males as being dumb brutes. Sure, that's not ALWAYS the case, but the "guilty-until-proven-innocent" method seems to cull the herd of my social circle nicely.

I've always been considered rather "odd", and because of this, I've taken quite a lot of abuse over the years, so I have a tendency to act up this oddness, as a sort of defence mechanism to push away others before they can do so to me. Doing so gets rid of those who would be likely to cause me grief, leaving those who are more tolerant, who have a tendency to be female.

Yeah, it's not a wonderful way of doing things, I know. It's largely a fear response.

EDIT: DamnedIrishman: I figured that it wasn't just an innuendo, or you probably wouldn't have bothered posting it.

DraPrime
2009-05-23, 08:03 PM
Poppy: I find that I default to viewing males as being dumb brutes. Sure, that's not ALWAYS the case, but the "guilty-until-proven-innocent" method seems to cull the herd of my social circle nicely.

Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 08:05 PM
Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.

Personally, I prefer women who think men are big, dumb brutes than those who are convinced that we're big, thick children who are completely incompetent at anything remotely domestic and don't understand anything more complicated that lager and football.


EDIT: DamnedIrishman: I figured that it wasn't just an innuendo, or you probably wouldn't have bothered posting it.

I'm sorry to lower your expectations of me, but it was just an innuendo I'm afraid. I treat women far better than men, to be honest. Partly because I like playing the gentleman (nothing wrong with chivalry) and I think simply partly because the fact that you're attracted to someone makes it easier to put up with their flaws.
I know that sounds awful, but be honest: we all do it to some extent.

Poppy Appletree
2009-05-23, 08:05 PM
Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.

"Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid,_throw_rocks_at_them!)"? :roy:

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 08:13 PM
Wow. That's... not nice.
Will you at least give every person an equal chance of a trial and ignore your biases in the meantime? Oops. I just asked a human to ignore his biases, something completely impossible.:smallfrown:

Actually, I really do mean it when I say it's a trial. Even if the look of a guy screams "idiot meathead" I'll (usually) give him a chance to show me that there is more to him than the content of his pants or a lack thereof upstairs. Hell, I've worked with a couple guys that left me with a TERRIBLE first impression but later showed me that they actually had depth. While I've found that I can relate to females better, I tend to hold onto those few guys who manage to earn my trust just as tightly.

DraPrime
2009-05-23, 08:15 PM
"Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid,_throw_rocks_at_them!)"? :roy:

Indeed. There would be far more outrage had that said that girls are stupid.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 08:22 PM
Girls are often just as dumb as guys. That's not an issue. I just tend to dislike guys who are excessively male, especially those that are mind-numbingly STUPID about it.

GoC
2009-05-23, 08:43 PM
Actually, I really do mean it when I say it's a trial.
Hmm...
Gender discrimination. Check.
When someone first meets you they know very little about you. First thing they see is that they get put on trial. Why not then just move on to someone else who is less antagonistic? How do you have any male friends at all?:smallconfused:
Actual question btw ^
Why did these friends decide to try and get to know you?
Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. I simply want to know more.


I just tend to dislike guys who are excessively male
What do you mean by "excessively male"?

Cyclone231
2009-05-23, 09:01 PM
Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.Poor men! Oh, how oppressed they are, crushed under the high heeled boots of the feminine oppressor! Why god? WHY????

Anyway, OP, I'd recommend you check out some feminist websites, lurk a bit on feminist forums, get an idea of what feminism is and (more specifically) what it is a reaction to. Honestly, asking the question on Giant in the Playground of all places was kinda dumb.

Also, universal on gender: people from across the world ****ing hate Carmen from the Starship Troopers movie, but not Rico.

FatJose
2009-05-23, 09:16 PM
Anyone here feel anger when in the movie 40 Days and 40 Nights, the main character is flat out raped..and he has to apologize about it? :smallannoyed:

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:19 PM
Hmm...
Gender discrimination. Check.
When someone first meets you they know very little about you. First thing they see is that they get put on trial. Why not then just move on to someone else who is less antagonistic? How do you have any male friends at all?:smallconfused:
Actual question btw ^
Why did these friends decide to try and get to know you?
Also, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. I simply want to know more.

What do you mean by "excessively male"?

Having my childhood uprooted by boys that found me wanting in the "male" department was just the first of many events that has left me with a rather... unkind (bitter/resentful?) default view of members of my gender. This "trial" is nothing that shows in my actions or words. What people claim to see upon meeting me is a quiet, nice guy who keeps to himself. Sometimes "damaged" is added to the description, though that's usually tossed in by those attracted to me (I'm not even going to look at that connection too hard).

On the subject of male friends, I honestly have had few that were very close to me. I can usually play nice with guys since I don't often come off as a threat (in whatever alien way males seem to determine pecking order), but I just don't understand the way they think. Get me in a room full of gals though, and I find that I am in my element. I just seem to understand them in a way I've never been able to with "my own kind".

As for friends, I've not had trouble making them since early gradeschool. I am emotional, soft, a people pleaser, and a great host by nature. Slap an apron and bust on me, and I'm an ideal stay-at-home wife... -thing. :smalltongue: I'm also obsessive about helping make life better for those around me, which is a trait that seems to be hard NOT to like. I don't take these questions as an attack at all, but I do appreciate the concern anyway. :smallsmile:

In other news, you know that stereotype of the "jock"? The guy that acts more like a shaved ape rather than a sentient person? That's the poster child of all that I loathe in guys. It's okay to accidently have an emotion that isn't anger or lust. There is no point in waving your metaphorical junk around to prove that you are the alpha male (I'll just stab you in the back if I can't take you to head on, you won't even see me coming). It's just as shallow and stupid as those vapid females that cut each other down over petty nothing slights. I hate that behavior just as much, but I seem to be able to relate to even those people over most guys. It's just the way I'm wired.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:19 PM
On of the things I find as a guy is the annoying issue of ďnot being allowed to touch a girlĒ. I can literally pat a girl on the shoulder and all of a sudden Iím a freaking rapist.

A lot of people don't necessarily want to be touched by anyway. :smallconfused: If you tap a girl on the shoulder to get her attention, no reasonable person, PC or un-PC, is going to get on your problem. Something makes me think you're not being literal, because that's an absurd hyperbole. Try a bit of an experiment here, touch guys you don't know exactly as you touch girls you don't know, and see how they react.


The other thing that annoys me a little, though I donít pay much attention to is the ďboys canít hit girlsĒ thing. Iím sorry but if a girl hits me Iím just as likely to hit them back as if it was a boy. I honestly thought this was just a stupid school playground thing, but it appears that it isnít.

Yeah, it's another part of the ubiquitous sexist patriarchy. It functions off the idea that women are limp little flowers made of glass who need to be protected by men. It's actually based in masculine chauvanism. The fact is, in most cases a guy could probably take down rather easily, so hitting a girl as hard as you'd hit a guy in many cases really is needless, even disregarding most men's general size and muscularity advantage. The fact is, people are raised thinking sports and martial arts are for boys. Women are brought up being told that they need men to defend them, so it's often a cheap shot.


Another thing that applies to both women and men is that they are both expected to act, dress behave and contribute to society in certain ways, and if a man or women does what the other is expected to do then thereís something wrong with them.

Well yeah.


Suffice to say, whatever women get in this life, they're not likely to be called out for being or wanting to be rapists due to their genitals.

Well... more men sexually abuse than women. For that matter, men are trained to be sexual agressors through a variety of channels.


Now here's a difficult question: Who has the better deal? Men or women? Or are both sexes being screwed by eachother?

Men by far. More specifically, white heterosexual Christian men. Bonus points if you don't belong to any fringe groups, like vegans.


I just wanted to reply to this from a view that would probably be considered opposite: I'm male, and the vast majority of my friends are female* - towards males, my disposition is usually a tad hostile unless they're quite passive. When I am consciously aware of some discrimination, it is against males and for females.

* Interesting point: On the Internet, I tend to talk more with males and less with females - this could be because, having a rather negative history with people, and males especially, I am generally wary when in proximity to others, though I am more inclined to trust females.

Most of my friends are girls and most of my favorite relatives are female, and I'm male. :smallannoyed: My disposition tends to be hostile towards males because I was abused (emotionally, not physically or sexually) by my male peers during most of my formative years, and I'm attracted to women sexually more so than men, so I often don't want to entertain the thought of women being bad, especially attractive ones, for obvious biological reasons.


If you're a woman and fit nicely into any of the major gender roles, there's still the fact that said gender role is changed/changing and there's no clear "path" to follow like there is for men. Since the only thing, as far as I can tell, being told to women is to be everything: monetarily successful, genetically successful, maternally successful, etc.

Women are taught to be submissive, surpressed and obsessed with their physical image. The messages they get are generally things like SHOP, GET MARRIED BEFORE YOU'RE 30, etc.


Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.

I don't see this, seeing as hatred of women is painfully acceptable in our society. Really, it's ubiquitous. Hell, just watch porn.


What do you mean by "excessively male"?

Probably referring to macho men. I really generally hate people who have fit themselves into society's perscribed gender roles. I have a deep seated loathing for really most big things about our (Western, that is) society.

Mr. Mud
2009-05-23, 09:20 PM
Girls are often just as dumb as guys. That's not an issue. I just tend to dislike guys who are excessively male, especially those that are mind-numbingly STUPID about it.

As in 'Macho'?

I disagree. While not all men eat beef and smoke and work out all the time, I mean, being a little 'macho' is only normal... But even those among us that are 'excessively macho' aren't necessarily bad or annoying... I'd judge them by their personality as a whole, thus being 'macho' very subjective to the rest of your personality.


In other news, you know that stereotype of the "jock"? The guy that acts more like a shaved ape rather than a sentient person? That's the poster child of all that I loathe in guys. It's okay to accidently have an emotion that isn't anger or lust. There is no point in waving your metaphorical junk around to prove that you are the alpha male (I'll just stab you in the back if I can't take you to head on, you won't even see me coming). It's just as shallow and stupid as those vapid females that cut each other down over petty nothing slights. I hate that behavior just as much, but I seem to be able to relate to even those people over most guys. It's just the way I'm wired.

Being known as the 'Jock' around in my hometown, I think that you might have the wrong idea about all of us... I mean sure most 'jocks' are arrogant but not all are ill-tempered or ill-willed. The kind of person you are referring to is different that a jock... They're called Jerks :smallwink:. Again its really not just the social image of the person, but their real personality... Being in the opposite element Hadri, I see 'Jocks' as ordinary people, but the jocks that are asinine, are a-whole-nother breed.

Ninja Chocobo
2009-05-23, 09:20 PM
Sexuality is most certainly a Thing.
As far as my (admittedly very limited) experience in these matters goes, a girl can do anything up to and including having sex with her female friends and still be considered straight; whereas the instant a guy shows any affection more than a Manly Hug(tm) he is instantly and irrevocably gay in the eyes of his peers.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:22 PM
I disagree. While not all men eat beef and smoke and work out all the time, I mean, being a little 'macho' is only normal...

Normalcy does not mean it's acceptable.

Trizap
2009-05-23, 09:22 PM
beh.

I don't like to discriminate, treat everyone the same way, I focus more on mental attributes than physical ones.

if said person is an idiot, I don't like them, doesn't matter if they are boy or girl.

to me, gender is a thing not to be worked up over. so what if your a boy/girl?
doesn't matter to me.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:22 PM
As in 'Macho'?

I disagree. While not all men eat beef and smoke and work out all the time, I mean, being a little 'macho' is only normal... But even those among us that are 'excessively macho' aren't necessarily bad or annoying... I'd judge them by their personality as a whole, thus being 'macho' very subjective to the rest of your personality.

I've found that most of the guys I've come across (outside of my circle of friends) fall into the catagory of being "macho, and not much else due to a crippling fear that it makes them less of a man" -or some such tripe. It's enough to make me want to start going Chuck Norris on them. :smallsigh:

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:24 PM
As far as my (admittedly very limited) experience in these matters goes, a girl can do anything up to and including having sex with her female friends and still be considered straight

No, men will probably think their "lesbians". In quotations, because there's this twisted male idea that all lesbians secretly want to have threesomes with guys.

Arachu
2009-05-23, 09:25 PM
If you ask the "all-knowing" television, then men are supposed to be brutalists, and women are supposed to be perfect, but annoying.

I'm not saying that this is, should be, or has to be true, but I'm pointing out the stereotype. Men are capable of higher levels of comprehension, and women are capable of standing up for themselves. But, of course, pop-culture fervently denies this, despite how most people at least say they think otherwise.

One of the more annoying bits of this lies in how people (no, not just children; adults too) model parts of themselves off of this. The "role" of the male gender is muscular, emotionless, and/or amorous, while the "role" of the female gender is faithful, pure, and loud.

As far as society is concerned, not only is deviation from this seen as 'weird', but it is also seen as 'homosexual'. Which, mind you, is always seen as wrong, because, you know, that's different from normality too. So, it has to be wrong. I mean, you woke up one day saying "I choose to like -gender-", didn't you? :smallcool: But I digress...

Lightly veiled sarcasm aside, I am of the opinion that gender roles began when men noticed that women make children (not realizing their part in it), and said "I must protect them".

I have no idea how this went from worshiping mother-goddesses to strict gender roles, but somehow it did.

... Anyone notice that female mammals tend to be smaller, female reptiles tend to be larger, and others tend to be... Well, in varying proportions?
Hey, aren't female fish about the same size?
...Crap, I digressed again...

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:25 PM
I've found that most of the guys I've come across (outside of my circle of friends) fall into the catagory of being "macho, and not much else due to a crippling fear that it makes them less of a man" -or some such tripe. It's enough to make me want to start going Chuck Norris on them. :smallsigh:

But Chuck Norris is macho. :smallwink:

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-23, 09:28 PM
No, men will probably think their "lesbians". In quotations, because there's this twisted male idea that all lesbians secretly want to have threesomes with guys.

No, it's a wish that two lesbians WILL have a threesome with you. I'll show you the math:

Sex with a girl = awesome
Therefore, sex with two girls = double awesome

The reason we hold out hope for the lesbians is because when we ask straight girls then they get all creeped out by the idea of having another woman there, just like most men would get creeped out in a man-woman-man threesome.

Plus, it's bisexuals we really like.

There is a difference between fantasy and expectation.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:30 PM
No, it's a wish that two lesbians WILL have a threesome with you. I'll show you the math:

Sex with a girl = awesome
Therefore, sex with two girls = double awesome

The reason we hold out hope for the lesbians is because when we ask straight girls then they get all creeped out by the idea of having another woman there, just like most men would get creeped out in a man-woman-man threesome.

Plus, it's bisexuals we really like.

There is a difference between fantasy and expectation.

MWM = hot. Seriously though, throw the idea of their girlfriend cheating on them with another woman, and most guys would think it hot. Lesbians are abused as much as gays, it just happens to be that they're objectified.

I do like bisexuals though. It opens up a lot of possibilities for swinging and group sex.

RS14
2009-05-23, 09:30 PM
At least in the United States, I think it is very revealing that women in the armed forces are generally kept out of intentional engagements and cannot serve in "Infantry, Special Forces, Artillery, Armor, and Air Defense Artillery." They are also exempt from selective service registration and drafting. Nobody seems to care.

I also recently watched Venus Boyz. At least one woman remarked on the noticeably different treatment she received when in drag.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:30 PM
But Chuck Norris is macho. :smallwink:

How else can I speak a language they understand!? :smalltongue: The cliche "how does that make you feel" bit makes them cower from my raging "gayness", so I substitute a roundhouse kick to the head. It works.

Mr. Mud
2009-05-23, 09:33 PM
My earlier edit:


In other news, you know that stereotype of the "jock"? The guy that acts more like a shaved ape rather than a sentient person? That's the poster child of all that I loathe in guys. It's okay to accidently have an emotion that isn't anger or lust. There is no point in waving your metaphorical junk around to prove that you are the alpha male (I'll just stab you in the back if I can't take you to head on, you won't even see me coming). It's just as shallow and stupid as those vapid females that cut each other down over petty nothing slights. I hate that behavior just as much, but I seem to be able to relate to even those people over most guys. It's just the way I'm wired.

Being known as the 'Jock' around in my hometown, I think that you might have the wrong idea about all of us... I mean sure most 'jocks' are arrogant but not all are ill-tempered or ill-willed. The kind of person you are referring to is different that a jock... They're called Jerks . Again its really not just the social image of the person, but their real personality... Being in the opposite element Hadri, I see 'Jocks' as ordinary people, but the jocks that are asinine, are a-whole-nother breed.

Ninja Chocobo
2009-05-23, 09:34 PM
No, men will probably think their "lesbians". In quotations, because there's this twisted male idea that all lesbians secretly want to have threesomes with guys.

Okay, fine. Up to but not including.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:36 PM
At least in the United States, I think it is very revealing that women in the armed forces are generally kept out of intentional engagements and cannot serve in "Infantry, Special Forces, Artillery, Armor, and Air Defense Artillery." They are also exempt from selective service registration and drafting. Nobody seems to care.

I care. It's very sexist, treating women like fragile little flowers that need to be protected by men. Other than that, I think selective service and drafting are ridiculously unethical and would sooner kill a soldier than become one. :smallannoyed:


How else can I speak a language they understand!? :smalltongue: The cliche "how does that make you feel" bit makes them cower from my raging "gayness", so I substitute a roundhouse kick to the head. It works.

My first instinct is often violence, though not really my first action, so I'm equally uncreative I guess. Chuck Norris really is off his bloody rocker though.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:42 PM
Meh. Changed my mind about this post.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:42 PM
Meh. Changed my mind about this post.

You indecisive chucklehead.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:49 PM
You indecisive chucklehead.

I was going to use first hand experience to clear up some things about the three-way notion, but thought that it might violate "da rulz" so I wiped it. Summed up: The WMW thing that guys seem to daydream about can easily become way too complicated and lead to a metric TON of life disrupting drama.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 09:51 PM
I was going to use first hand experience to clear up some things about the three-way notion, but thought that it might violate "da rulz" so I wiped it. Summed up: The WMW thing that guys seem to daydream about can easily become way too complicated and lead to a metric TON of life disrupting drama.

I was teasing. :smallsmile: I don't believe in monogomy or sexual morality, so MMW and WWM sound pretty nifty to me, and I think all it requires is people who can detatch sex from romance.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 09:58 PM
Amesoeurs: Having recently ended a (somewhat) poly relationship of around 3 years, my views on things have gone through some serious changes. That said, the actual execution of such 3+ party situations is a tricky matter to tackle. Yes, it'd be real fun and simple if people could consistantly keep emotion out of physical activities, but they usually can't. It's not the way we're wired. Get a group of people together who agree that it's all play, and eventually emotions will come into the picture and make things explode. Any exceptions to this statement are just that, exceptions.

Ya Ta Hey!
2009-05-23, 10:43 PM
Q: Do men or women get the better deal?

Depends on the social circle. I've seen gender favoritism, bias, prejudice, hated, and everything else go in either direction. Its not right, but its also not helped by getting defensive or coutner-prejudiced.

For better or worse, society's gonna view a person however it pleases. Raising a hue and cry about it can get new laws passed in their favor and its good to have institutional justice.

....but that alone can't change minds. When confronted by prejudice, a person's only chance of helping the situation is by exemplifying fairness and compassion in their own dealings in hopes of counteracting the stereotypes. I can say from experience that become counter-defensive, while emotionally satisfying, does not help; railing only reinforces the emnity and ensures that the cultural rift will stay in place. Does this mean being a doormat that passively accepts victimization while forcing a smile and wishing on a star? No, no, obviously no one should have to be a punching bag, but the idea here is not to internalize and reflect the bad blood.


As a man, how does society treat me? Depends on the social circle; it would, in turn, be prejudiced of me to paint all of society with a single brush and say that the entire United States views me this way or that. Some people view me as a level headed young engineer with a dream of philanthropy and a compelling philosphy of hope for the future. Others view me as an inhibited relic of outmoded Christian thinking who should never have been born because its a forgone conclusion that I'll repeat everything wrong and unjust about the past. Its all depends on which worldview dominates.

Genderwise, its the same; some people don't have the same definition of equality that I do and may see me as controlling or spineless, depending on the level of stringency they're accustomed to.

More than anything, I find that I get back what I put in. I prefer to show people resepct and dignity, and usually see the same thing returned. On the occasions when I'm discouraged and start being combative about some percieved slight, I get that malice slung right back at me and nothing is accomplished.

Faulty
2009-05-23, 10:59 PM
Amesoeurs: Having recently ended a (somewhat) poly relationship of around 3 years, my views on things have gone through some serious changes. That said, the actual execution of such 3+ party situations is a tricky matter to tackle. Yes, it'd be real fun and simple if people could consistantly keep emotion out of physical activities, but they usually can't. It's not the way we're wired. Get a group of people together who agree that it's all play, and eventually emotions will come into the picture and make things explode. Any exceptions to this statement are just that, exceptions.

I was thinking like picking up partners from swingers clubs. Not poly.

Trizap
2009-05-23, 11:34 PM
seriously, I don't see the big deal over gender, humanity is all the same to me, we all have our differences and things that make us unique, I don't see how the only true flip-coin category in the world really effects how I treat anyone differently from anyone else, why make a big deal over it?

Coidzor
2009-05-23, 11:42 PM
Ah yes, this reminds me of something. It's seems to be far more acceptable to hate men than it is to hate women.

Yeah, most of that is dismissed as silly straw feminism from those who are either lost causes or are going to become lesbians and largely withdraw/cut interaction with males in the general public anyway.

Whereas feminists are constantly on the lookout for the slightest offcolor thing said while drunk at a party somewhere by anyone who could remotely be newsworthy to harass (hyperbole, of course), so there's actual watchdogs on that end.

Mostly because no one actually pushes for gender equality, there's groups that aim to push men down, women up, women down, and men up (whether as part of the stated goal of said groups or just in practice), in the great tradition of humans reacting in one direction and then another until equilibrium is reached.

Cyclone231
2009-05-24, 12:05 AM
I was going to use first hand experience to clear up some things about the three-way notion, but thought that it might violate "da rulz" so I wiped it. Summed up: The WMW thing that guys seem to daydream about can easily become way too complicated and lead to a metric TON of life disrupting drama.I'm sorry sir, you clearly don't understand. The ideal sex position is the man on the bottom and a BILLION girls on the top. hth
Mostly because no one actually pushes for gender equality, there's groups that aim to push men down, women up, women down, and men up (whether as part of the stated goal of said groups or just in practice), in the great tradition of humans reacting in one direction and then another until equilibrium is reached.Yeah, there are groups that aim to push women down and men up. Most groups are like this. We live in a patriarchal society. Every known society in the history of humanity is patriarchal (except, arguably, modern-day Rwanda).

Coidzor
2009-05-24, 12:16 AM
I'm sorry sir, you clearly don't understand. The ideal sex position is the man on the bottom and a BILLION girls on the top. hth
Hmm, let's see... 2...2...2...2... 6....6....2...8... so...
2+2=4+4=8+12=20+10=30... So about 30... Depending upon how well the ribs are constructed. I haven't done much research into how much weight the ribcage can take during physical exertion before suffocation sets in.


Yeah, there are groups that aim to push women down and men up. Most groups are like this. We live in a patriarchal society. Every known society in the history of humanity is patriarchal (except, arguably, modern-day Rwanda).

While no one can argue against there being a majority of patriarchies, I believe there are arguable positions on a couple historical societies/cultures for them being either matriarchies or something neither. Certainly it could be said that civilization is patriarchy.

I figure we'll get something figured eventually though, call me an optimist....

Faulty
2009-05-24, 12:21 AM
become lesbians

Excuse me?


Whereas feminists are constantly on the lookout for the slightest offcolor thing said while drunk at a party somewhere by anyone who could remotely be newsworthy to harass (hyperbole, of course), so there's actual watchdogs on that end.

You realize that those "offcolor" remarks are part of a deep cultural undercurrent of sexism that has real effects on people's lives.


Mostly because no one actually pushes for gender equality

Please speak for yourself.

Coidzor
2009-05-24, 12:31 AM
Excuse me?

Yeah. There is a belief amongst certain segments of the population that I have come into contact with that an intense misandry is either associated with or culminates in lesbianism as a rejection of patriarchy. **** if I know the truth, since I'm really not going to be able to pick the brain of someone who hates me very well. Haven't really mastered that skill yet... I've tried practicing but it's... just downright difficult to get someone who hates you to talk to you at length.


You realize that those "offcolor" remarks are part of a deep cultural undercurrent of sexism that has real effects on people's lives.

My point being more that there are people watching out for this sort of thing whereas no one gives a crap about the reverse.

Doesn't mean I'm obligated to care about it if it's something outside of my actual life, as it stands, at the current point in my life, I have very little emotional pain that I am willing to take on in addition to what I have to deal with on my own.

Well, believe what you will about what you believe. I'm sticking with a warped view of Dialecticism such that it's a sum-forces game with acceleration in two directions signifying the struggle.

Faulty
2009-05-24, 12:34 AM
Yeah. There is a belief amongst certain segments of the population that I have come into contact with that an intense misandry is either associated with or culminates in lesbianism as a rejection of patriarchy. **** if I know the truth, since I'm really not going to be able to pick the brain of someone who hates me very well.

One cannot become a lesbian. One either is or is not predilicted towards sexual attraction to ones own gender.



Yeah, but having a giant conference of women acting in such a manner that their countenances are rendered grotesque by the group's self-indulgent hatred is just showboating. My point being more that there are people watching out for this sort of thing whereas no one gives a crap about the reverse.

If I'm male and a feminist and I have no problem with that... am I... self-indulgently hating myself? :smallconfused: What do you mean by "no one gives a crap about the reverse"?


Well, believe what you will about what you believe. I'm sticking with a warped view of Dialecticism such that it's a sum-forces game with acceleration in two directions signifying the struggle.

That seems very narrow, you know.

Recaiden
2009-05-24, 12:39 AM
If I'm male and a feminist and I have no problem with that... am I... self-indulgently hating myself? :smallconfused: What do you mean by "no one gives a crap about the reverse"?

That many fewer people care if women discriminate towards men than if men discriminate towards women.

Faulty
2009-05-24, 12:41 AM
That many fewer people care if women discriminate towards men than if men discriminate towards women.

How often do women really get a chance to discriminate against men? :smallconfused:

Coidzor
2009-05-24, 12:43 AM
One cannot become a lesbian. One either is or is not predilicted towards sexual attraction to ones own gender.
Well, yes. Some look for something more than sheer proclivity for justification though. One certainly can become a practicing lesbian from having tried and realized one's dissatisfaction/unfulfillment/whatever with the straight game.


If I'm male and a feminist and I have no problem with that... am I... self-indulgently hating myself? :smallconfused: What do you mean by "no one gives a crap about the reverse"?
Didn't say you couldn't be a feminist, just said that you can't really push for things to be equal due to the huge discrepancy and human nature. I'm not the wisest being, so maybe things'll change so that equality is possible and not just a see-saw of struggle.

I meant that no one cares about misandry, due to the low numbers and how silly it seems to most. And possibly other things that slip my mind.

[QUOTE=Amesoeurs;6144720That seems very narrow, you know.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much. I'm not very passionate about such things, since the most I care about feminism is being able to find an equal and a partner in my mate. Doesn't really seem like there's anything I can do to increase the odds of that by contributing to the movement, since any change I could help to effect would only really influence girls... a generation or more from now. Who knows though, maybe my sense of altruism'll grow again after my hormones settle down and I get used to the idea of never finding love due to it being a false ideal.

GoC
2009-05-24, 12:52 AM
Men by far. More specifically, white heterosexual Christian men. Bonus points if you don't belong to any fringe groups, like vegans.
How so? Where I come from women are under less pressure due to reduced expectations. A man is expected to work. Sounds easy? It's a third world country. Working is to survive. Expect 72 hour weeks. You're expected to leave decisions regarding household matters (new chairs) to your wife and occasional gifts are a MUST. The man generally has the final say in financial decisions but it's very rarely one-sided. They are expected to conceal all emotions and be "tough". This can lead to severe damage to their psyche.
A women is expected to keep the house tidy, sleep with her husband (and before you ask, yes, she does have a choice though refusing sex is going to make the marriage unhappy), cook and spend the rest of her day chatting with her friends.
Both genders lack options and which has the better deal depends on what you're after.

Note: I just described how one of the most chauvinistic cultures on earth isn't quite as one-sided as it seems. Most are in fact fairly content with their gender role in society (there are obviously much worse things to be discontent about:smalltongue:). Perhaps the lack of feeling of entitlement... americans and westerners in general feel that they are entitled to persue their own path and choose their role in society. I think this feeling is much less strong in the country mentioned above.


Women are taught to be submissive, surpressed and obsessed with their physical image. The messages they get are generally things like SHOP, GET MARRIED BEFORE YOU'RE 30, etc.
Submissive and surpressed? Depends where I suppose. I'm not so sure it's true here in the UK. And the problem is you can't really convince me because I distrust anecdotes and you can't really make a decent survey about whether there is an increased submissiveness in women due to this being taught be society.
Are you sure the obsession with physical image wasn't originally caused by basic biology and evolution? And then this natural tendency gets amplified by society and media.


I don't see this, seeing as hatred of women is painfully acceptable in our society. Really, it's ubiquitous. Hell, just watch porn.
Not quite willing to look up porn I must request another source.


How often do women really get a chance to discriminate against men?
Very often. While it is believed that women have less power in terms of positions of authority they do wield quite a bit of social power due to (apparently) superior networking skills and greater enphasis on such.


Normalcy does not mean it's acceptable.
Actually it does. People won't do something that is unacceptable in society unless there's a very big advantage in it.

You certainly seem to be quite an ardent feminist.
Perhaps it's that being brought up in a chauvinistic society has made me think that the UK is very egalitarian...


Mostly because no one actually pushes for gender equality, there's groups that aim to push men down, women up, women down, and men up (whether as part of the stated goal of said groups or just in practice), in the great tradition of humans reacting in one direction and then another until equilibrium is reached.
Not just this, it's the whole "ingroup/outgroup" mentality that humanity has had since before we were homo sapiens. It's just changed from tribe-tribe to country-country and male-female.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-24, 12:56 AM
How often do women really get a chance to discriminate against men? :smallconfused:

You don't date much, do you? That's basically the entire point of the heterosexual dating scene. A chance for women to discriminate against men based on any number of criteria.


Actually it does. People won't do something that is unacceptable in society unless there's a very big advantage in it.

Not quite. To wit: Sociopathy.

Ichneumon
2009-05-24, 01:22 AM
Wow, I wouldn't have expected this thread to grow so quickly....

I saw a discussion on tv a few days/weeks ago with a police officer who had to hire people and he said that if he prefered women because they "think" differently and that if he would find 2 people a man and a woman who were both equally capable of doing the work, he would hire the woman. I thought this was rather sexist, but no one, no one, was shocked about this. If it would have been the other way around, if he had prefered men above women everybody would have said something, I am sure of it.

Chas the mage
2009-05-24, 01:24 AM
if you where a guy you'd hold open doors for girls...
if you where a girl youd have doors hel open for you.

FatJose
2009-05-24, 01:25 AM
Would you feel society treats men/boys different from women/girls? I'm not just talking about sexism, but also about people's general view towards individuals of certain gender.

I have to do a school paper on something like this and I would just like some introductory views of different people on this before I start doing my research.

On the flipside, you should also check out Masculism sites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism
http://www.ncfm.org/
http://www.gendereconomy.com/main/index1.html
http://www.hisside.com/

THere is a culture of super machismo that really pisses me off. Me and my friends call it Mookery or D-Baggery (http://www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/). We even make songs about them since they are everywhere.
Hey, you.
Yeah, you
Guy with the muscle shirt,
maybe a t-shirt that's far too small for you.
Oh, you so cool, pop your color for me
Just one more tiiiiime.
Got yo' hair so spikey
Yo beard is a straight line
If I didn't know better, I'd say..I'd say
Its a strap to keep your hair oooonnn!!
Needs work.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 01:35 AM
Submissive and surpressed? Depends where I suppose. I'm not so sure it's true here in the UK. And the problem is you can't really convince me because I distrust anecdotes and you can't really make a decent survey about whether there is an increased submissiveness in women due to this being taught be society.
Are you sure the obsession with physical image wasn't originally caused by basic biology and evolution? And then this natural tendency gets amplified by society and media.



Since nothing I can say can convince you, I won't bother trying. But I do have to throw it out, for the record, that as a female, society does exert these pressures, for whatever reason.

On another note, what do you all think of the studies that show that women are still doing the majority of the housework/child care even when they work as much or more as their male partner?

Goldwing
2009-05-24, 02:20 AM
I saw a discussion on tv a few days/weeks ago with a police officer who had to hire people and he said that if he prefered women because they "think" differently and that if he would find 2 people a man and a woman who were both equally capable of doing the work, he would hire the woman. I thought this was rather sexist, but no one, no one, was shocked about this. If it would have been the other way around, if he had prefered men above women everybody would have said something, I am sure of it.

This reminds me of a funny story...

This random company is in dire straights, has to lay off folks, etc., etc...(not recently, about twenty years ago). The department my mother worked in had to lay off one person, came down to her and this dude, both of whom did the exact same job. Somehow, by virtue of some freaky wormhole that exploded in the Easter Bunnys' face or something, both were supporting a family, both had worked for the same amount of time, and they managed to get almost identical performance reviews all through their time with that company. Freakyness, I know. Only real difference beyond gender was that he got paid a few thousand dollars more a year. Their boss was a woman, knew of the creepy identicalness of their situations, their department had to try to save as much money as possible, and she fired my mother instead of the dude that got paid more.

:smallconfused:

No wait, that one wasn't the funny one...never mind. That was the infuriating one. Maybe...let's see...no, the United Airlines story isn't it...


:smallsigh: My memory fails me.

GoC
2009-05-24, 02:32 AM
Since nothing I can say can convince you, I won't bother trying.
Well... If you can link to a survey that shows these results that would work...


On another note, what do you all think of the studies that show that women are still doing the majority of the housework/child care even when they work as much or more as their male partner?
Tragic.:smallfrown: Are they doing this by choice or because they are being forced to?
Got a link?

Goldwing: Job sexism certainly existed, but is it still as prevelant these days? If so I'd love to know who the morons doing the employing are...:smallannoyed:

Ichneumon
2009-05-24, 04:06 AM
By original question was geared more towards regular situations like buying a bread in the supermarket where people may treat you differently then job discrimination.

Quincunx
2009-05-24, 07:23 AM
Since nothing I can say can convince you, I won't bother trying. But I do have to throw it out, for the record, that as a female, society does exert these pressures, for whatever reason.

On another note, what do you all think of the studies that show that women are still doing the majority of the housework/child care even when they work as much or more as their male partner?

Impressive, we got to post 86 before a female even replied, and the Girl Thread wasn't responsible for drawing off parallel discussion either. Counting done, going back to read the thread and pound one fist into my other palm in rage.

Rollory
2009-05-24, 07:27 AM
Words have gender. People have sex.

averagejoe
2009-05-24, 07:35 AM
Counting done

You know that each post is numbered, right? You don't actually have to count. :smalltongue:


Words have gender. People have sex.

Speak for yourself.

I mean...

Um...

Your mom had sex.

FatJose
2009-05-24, 07:44 AM
By original question was geared more towards regular situations like buying a bread in the supermarket where people may treat you differently then job discrimination.

Umm, they get referred to as Ma'am or Sir. That's about it. I don't see how any discrimination could happen there and have never seen it done.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 01:12 PM
Well... If you can link to a survey that shows these results that would work...


All I have is my personal experience, which is fine for me.


Tragic.:smallfrown: Are they doing this by choice or because they are being forced to?
Got a link?

A quick google search produces many. But for starters: http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=726


Goldwing: Job sexism certainly existed, but is it still as prevelant these days? If so I'd love to know who the morons doing the employing are...:smallannoyed:

Obviously you've never talked to anyone who was pregnant and trying to get hired. :)

THAC0
2009-05-24, 01:14 PM
Umm, they get referred to as Ma'am or Sir. That's about it. I don't see how any discrimination could happen there and have never seen it done.

Maybe not in a grocery store. But how about an auto shop? Honestly, I HATE taking the cars in to be serviced without my husband, because I get treated like a complete moron.

Similar note: buying cars. It is my experience that the salespeople look at the men as the deciders and all they tell the women about (if anything) are things like "Oh, aren't these leather seats gorgeous."

GoC
2009-05-24, 01:31 PM
All I have is my personal experience, which is fine for me.
But sadly useless to me...


A quick google search produces many. But for starters: http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=726
Hmm...
In that link most of them seem like they are primarily a product of choice (likely influenced by gender roles) more than the imposition of outside will.
The only unfair, non-choice one I see is this: "Women spend more time on the physical care and supervision of children while men spend a much greater proportion of their time on social childcare such as playing."
Which, while very unfair, is still only one thing AND it isn't quantified.

There's also no mention of a wage gap or a glass cieling. Have these factors been eliminated?


Obviously you've never talked to anyone who was pregnant and trying to get hired. :)
True. But isn't that more a stupid law that says pregnant women must have payed maternity leave?
Also, don't most employers want reliability? And the chance of someone suddenly taking an X month break while still having to be payed.
Can this explain it?

THAC0
2009-05-24, 01:46 PM
But sadly useless to me...

As I said in the first place.



Hmm...
In that link most of them seem like they are primarily a product of choice (likely influenced by gender roles) more than the imposition of outside will.
The only unfair, non-choice one I see is this: "Women spend more time on the physical care and supervision of children while men spend a much greater proportion of their time on social childcare such as playing."
Which, while very unfair, is still only one thing AND it isn't quantified.

Some choices are more choices than others. For example, no one is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to clean the house instead of my husband (assuming he were in the country, anyway), but it is my experience that the state of ones home is seen as reflecting more on the wife than the husband. So I put in more effort than he does. Of course, this is something that is difficult to prove in a study, so you might just be out of luck there. A lot of the blatant discrimination has been mitigated or eliminated. That still leaves a lot of gray area that can be experienced, but has a harder time being proved.



There's also no mention of a wage gap or a glass cieling. Have these factors been eliminated?

That's a different subject from the topic of the article and would require another google search.

Wage gap: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20050914/

Glass ceiling: http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4197626




True. But isn't that more a stupid law that says pregnant women must have payed maternity leave?
Also, don't most employers want reliability? And the chance of someone suddenly taking an X month break while still having to be payed.
Can this explain it?

Personally, I'm all for paid maternity AND paternity leave. May I ask why you do not seem to be in favor of paid maternity leave?

Whether or not they want reliability or not, it's still discrimination based on gender, is it not?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 01:52 PM
Personally, I'm all for paid maternity AND paternity leave. May I ask why you do not seem to be in favor of paid maternity leave?

Whether or not they want reliability or not, it's still discrimination based on gender, is it not?

Much as I try to avoid this thread, I must point out: no, it's descrimination based on pregnancy.

In a world with equal maternity and paternity leave, a man who was about to take time off to raise a child would also be less likely to be hired. the difference is that it's harder for a woman to lie about it.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 01:55 PM
Much as I try to avoid this thread, I must point out: no, it's descrimination based on pregnancy.

In a world with equal maternity and paternity leave, a man who was about to take time off to raise a child would also be less likely to be hired. the difference is that it's harder for a woman to lie about it.

It is, however, listed under "sex discrimination" under title XII, it appears.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 02:12 PM
It is, however, listed under "sex discrimination" under title XII, it appears.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

Yes, but then we don't have equal maternity/paternity leave yet, do we? So only women will suffer until men get the same rights to raise their children as women do.

I'd say the fact that, in a divorce with children, law and public prejudice is predisposed to the mother having custody over the children rather than the father, is far more unjust than pregnant women being unable to find work. Mothers don't neccessarily make better parents.
That is a question of priorites though. Children are far more important to me than working. If I could stay at home and raise my children whilst my partner worked without being culturally stigmatised, then that would be a happy day.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 02:24 PM
Yes, but then we don't have equal maternity/paternity leave yet, do we? So only women will suffer until men get the same rights to raise their children as women do.

I'd say the fact that, in a divorce with children, law and public prejudice is predisposed to the mother having custody over the children rather than the father, is far more unjust than pregnant women being unable to find work. Mothers don't neccessarily make better parents.
That is a question of priorites though. Children are far more important to me than working. If I could stay at home and raise my children whilst my partner worked without being culturally stigmatised, then that would be a happy day.

Oh, I agree, I do. Especially about the "culturally stigmatized" bit.

Ichneumon
2009-05-24, 03:02 PM
Yes, but then we don't have equal maternity/paternity leave yet, do we? So only women will suffer until men get the same rights to raise their children as women do.

I'd say the fact that, in a divorce with children, law and public prejudice is predisposed to the mother having custody over the children rather than the father, is far more unjust than pregnant women being unable to find work. Mothers don't neccessarily make better parents.
That is a question of priorites though. Children are far more important to me than working. If I could stay at home and raise my children whilst my partner worked without being culturally stigmatised, then that would be a happy day.

I read this article today http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-467390/Househusband-backlash-high-flying-wives-ditch-men-em-em-wanted-stay-home.html that might be interesting, I got it from a fellow forum member through a pm.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 03:16 PM
I read this article today http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-467390/Househusband-backlash-high-flying-wives-ditch-men-em-em-wanted-stay-home.html that might be interesting, I got it from a fellow forum member through a pm.

Yes, I've read that article even though I am of the opinion that the Daily Mail is possibly one of the most bigoted institutions in the entirety of the UK. It doesn't suprise me. I've had girlfriends in the past who've lost respect for me if I didn't have a job and they did, even if I still have money. To some extent, I think many women still expect men to be a provider, even if they don't need to be because the woman wants to work.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 03:20 PM
I read this article today http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-467390/Househusband-backlash-high-flying-wives-ditch-men-em-em-wanted-stay-home.html that might be interesting, I got it from a fellow forum member through a pm.

Interesting read, definitely.

LXH
2009-05-24, 04:01 PM
I registered specifically to comment in this thread.

First off, here's a link to one of the studies mentioned that show employed women still spend more time on housework than their working partners: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6011245/ And though they average about a half hour less at work, they still end up with less total leisure time, so it can be concluded that time not spent at the paid job is still spent working nonetheless.

Second, I'd like to lend a bit of personal experience due to the fact that I am what would be referred to as "transgender" in our society. Meaning I was born outwardly physically male but now live as a woman. And I can definitely say, in my own experience, that life was much easier prior to transition. In my post-military career, I had averaged roughly a 10% salary increase per year, simply by talking up a big game in interviews and performance reviews. As a woman, I have had two interview experiences in the past eight months in which I'd answered every single technical question correctly and was later told they wanted to go with a more "technically experienced" candidate. On the occasion that I have received an offer, each has been at a lower rate than I made at my last job worked as a male. I also had to step down from my pre-transition engineering track in IT and back into systems administration simply for the sake of paying the bills.

When talking with coworkers about current political events, I am frequently condescended to with variations of the line "you just don't understand the severity of the situation." Usually I have to start quoting passages from our Constitution before I can get anyone's respect if we're discussing legalities. When speaking about something related to the war in Iraq, I was told by a coworker that, even though I was in the military, I was probably taught differently about the rules of war because I'm female and therefor wasn't qualified to lend an opinion on matters.

Post-transition life has been an enormous culture shock. I alternate between frequent dismay at the way some men interact with me and shock at the frighteningly low expectations some women have for their own careers and personal relationships. All of these things are cultural and I do not say these things to suggest that men are inherently one way or women are another, but that, in our society, it is all too common to raise boys as emotional cripples and women to be superficial princesses with low expectations. And when those boys and girls grow up, their actions and words reveal the extent of that upbringing, and I believe its influence is a crime against both sexes. That we continue to perpetuate it willingly is even more of a tragedy.

But to sum up, I would say that our system lends itself to granting most of the power to the males in our society. That doesn't mean they don't have their own set of hindering expectations and roles thrust upon them, but that they simply still hold the lion's share of authority after all is said and done.

Nameless
2009-05-24, 04:27 PM
^I still have trouble with this one. I see the reason behind the stance, but I still can't do more than play strike females.

The thing is, I still see women protesting for equal rights, but in many cases, women sometimes have more rights. Not official rights, but more social stuff, whatís expected of men and women by others, when it comes to dressing and behaving etc.
One example is that itís almost perfectly fine for a girl to make a sexist remark towards men, but if a guy doesÖ WOOOOO! Heís evil! Heís a male fascist!
And of course, vice-versa, which pees me off too.


The "don't hit girls" thing has a reason. Female homo sapiens are generally smaller, weaker and slightly more fragile. Of course, these same concerns should apply to smaller boys too...
I'd love some consistency in society.

Thatís not the point. I donít usually hit people, unless in a ďplayĒ sense, but I am just as likely to hit a girl as I am a guy, and just as hard. If a boy kicks me, Iím just as likely to hit them as if it was a girl.
Girls being more ďfragileĒ is that girls problem and not mine.

LXH
2009-05-24, 05:19 PM
The thing is, I still see women protesting for equal rights, but in many cases, women sometimes have more rights. Not official rights, but more social stuff, whatís expected of men and women by others, when it comes to dressing and behaving etc.
One example is that itís almost perfectly fine for a girl to make a sexist remark towards men, but if a guy doesÖ WOOOOO! Heís evil! Heís a male fascist!
And of course, vice-versa, which pees me off too.



Thatís not the point. I donít usually hit people, unless in a ďplayĒ sense, but I am just as likely to hit a girl as I am a guy, and just as hard. If a boy kicks me, Iím just as likely to hit them as if it was a girl.
Girls being more ďfragileĒ is that girls problem and not mine.
Is the problem that it's socially not acceptable to hit women or that it is to do so to a man? 'Cause I'm a big fan of the whole "don't hit girls" thing. I just change out "girls" to "people." Obviously that wouldn't apply in a genuinely dangerous, threatening situation, but if someone smaller than me and clearly not much of a threat was trying to throw down, I'd probably just subdue them until they calmed down.

I'm not necessarily saying this about anyone in this thread, but I've heard a few men (boys) in my day brag about how they'd never hit a girl unless the girl hit them, and then all bets are off and they'd go ape**** on her. Looking forward to such an unequal reprisal suggests a fair amount of anger or frustration towards women.

But anyway, I think finding it less socially acceptable to hit women than to hit men is symptomatic of the problems in our society and suggests a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. I don't think that particular inequity is the problem in and of itself. Ideally, violence of any kind would be equally as discouraged.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 05:29 PM
I registered specifically to comment in this thread.

First off, here's a link to one of the studies mentioned that show employed women still spend more time on housework than their working partners: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6011245/ And though they average about a half hour less at work, they still end up with less total leisure time, so it can be concluded that time not spent at the paid job is still spent working nonetheless.

Second, I'd like to lend a bit of personal experience due to the fact that I am what would be referred to as "transgender" in our society. Meaning I was born outwardly physically male but now live as a woman. And I can definitely say, in my own experience, that life was much easier prior to transition. In my post-military career, I had averaged roughly a 10% salary increase per year, simply by talking up a big game in interviews and performance reviews. As a woman, I have had two interview experiences in the past eight months in which I'd answered every single technical question correctly and was later told they wanted to go with a more "technically experienced" candidate. On the occasion that I have received an offer, each has been at a lower rate than I made at my last job worked as a male. I also had to step down from my pre-transition engineering track in IT and back into systems administration simply for the sake of paying the bills.

When talking with coworkers about current political events, I am frequently condescended to with variations of the line "you just don't understand the severity of the situation." Usually I have to start quoting passages from our Constitution before I can get anyone's respect if we're discussing legalities. When speaking about something related to the war in Iraq, I was told by a coworker that, even though I was in the military, I was probably taught differently about the rules of war because I'm female and therefor wasn't qualified to lend an opinion on matters.

Post-transition life has been an enormous culture shock. I alternate between frequent dismay at the way some men interact with me and shock at the frighteningly low expectations some women have for their own careers and personal relationships. All of these things are cultural and I do not say these things to suggest that men are inherently one way or women are another, but that, in our society, it is all too common to raise boys as emotional cripples and women to be superficial princesses with low expectations. And when those boys and girls grow up, their actions and words reveal the extent of that upbringing, and I believe its influence is a crime against both sexes. That we continue to perpetuate it willingly is even more of a tragedy.

But to sum up, I would say that our system lends itself to granting most of the power to the males in our society. That doesn't mean they don't have their own set of hindering expectations and roles thrust upon them, but that they simply still hold the lion's share of authority after all is said and done.

Thank you for sharing your experiences - you definitely have a unique viewpoint for this topic!

Faulty
2009-05-24, 06:02 PM
Girls being more ďfragileĒ is that girls problem and not mine.

Actually, it is your problem, seeing as you're interacting with it. That's like justifying hitting someone who was crossing the street because they didn't walk fast enough.

Nameless
2009-05-24, 06:25 PM
Actually, it is your problem, seeing as you're interacting with it. That's like justifying hitting someone who was crossing the street because they didn't walk fast enough.

No, not quite. If a girl started punching me in the face and nose, and then I punched her back in the nose and it broke, thatís her problem. Itís called self defence and retaliation.
I donít care what sexual organs the person has, if I need to defend myself I will, even though I really donít like hitting people and usualy I don't.


Is the problem that it's socially not acceptable to hit women or that it is to do so to a man? 'Cause I'm a big fan of the whole "don't hit girls" thing. I just change out "girls" to "people." Obviously that wouldn't apply in a genuinely dangerous, threatening situation, but if someone smaller than me and clearly not much of a threat was trying to throw down, I'd probably just subdue them until they calmed down.

The point Iím trying to make is that guys shouldnít feel bad for hitting a girl, but feel fine with hitting a guy, so I partly agree with what youíre saying.

LXH
2009-05-24, 06:30 PM
No, not quite. If a girl started punching me in the face and nose, and then I punched her back in the nose and it broke, thatís her problem. Itís called self defence and retaliation.
I donít care what sexual organs the person has, if I need to defend myself I will, even though I really donít like hitting people.
I don't know if this kind of thing is even frowned upon. Would you really suffer under negative stigma for having defended yourself? Nobody I've talked to of either gender has ever suggested it's OK for women (or men) to attack someone while expecting nothing to happen to them.

The point Iím trying to make is that guys shouldnít feel bad for hitting a girl, but feel fine with hitting a guy, so I partly agree with what youíre saying.
I think a person should feel bad if they lost control and took the reprisal to levels it didn't need to go to mitigate the threat. Like being slapped in the face and retaliating by breaking several teeth and the person's nose.

Faulty
2009-05-24, 06:31 PM
No, not quite. If a girl started punching me in the face and nose, and then I punched her back in the nose and it broke, thatís her problem. Itís called self defence and retaliation.
I donít care what sexual organs the person has, if I need to defend myself I will, even though I really donít like hitting people.

My point is, you could easily punch her in the stomach or kick her leg out from under her. There's no need to hit someone smaller than you as hard as you'd hit someone your size.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 06:34 PM
My point is, you could easily punch her in the stomach or kick her leg out from under her. There's no need to hit someone smaller than you as hard as you'd hit someone your size.

That's a sexist assumption that men are bigger than women. I'm not hugely tall - 5'8", and I know a fair amount of girls who are bigger than me, including one who is 6'3" and pretty damn broad.

Faulty
2009-05-24, 06:37 PM
That's a sexist assumption that men are bigger than women. I'm not hugely tall - 5'8", and I know a fair amount of girls who are bigger than me, including one who is 6'3" and pretty damn broad.

Men are generally bigger than women, that's not sexist... it just is. :smallconfused: The context was "fragile" girls if you look a few posts back. He said that if he hits a woman who is fragile and hurts her, it's not his problem, when it is.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 06:38 PM
Men are generally bigger than women, that's not sexist... it just is. :smallconfused: The context was "fragile" girls if you look a few posts back. He said that if he hits a woman who is fragile and hurts her, it's not his problem, when it is.

I am totally joking.

LXH
2009-05-24, 06:39 PM
That's a sexist assumption that men are bigger than women. I'm not hugely tall - 5'8", and I know a fair amount of girls who are bigger than me, including one who is 6'3" and pretty damn broad.
It's not sexist if that assumption were made; simply not entirely accurate. But sexual dimorphism being what it is, it would be a safe generalization in most cases.

Obviously, that will not be the case in each instance, and I don't think Amesoeurs is suggesting that. But even in cases when a woman is taller than a man, assuming equal levels of physical activity, the man is much more likely to be more physically overpowering.

Nameless
2009-05-24, 06:40 PM
My point is, you could easily punch her in the stomach or kick her leg out from under her. There's no need to hit someone smaller than you as hard as you'd hit someone your size.

I disagree, someone being smaller or weaker shouldn't give that person the right to attack you and take away your right to deffend yourself.


I don't know if this kind of thing is even frowned upon. Would you really suffer under negative stigma for having defended yourself? Nobody I've talked to of either gender has ever suggested it's OK for women (or men) to attack someone while expecting nothing to happen to them.

You would be surprised with the kind of guys I've spoken too.


I think a person should feel bad if they lost control and took the reprisal to levels it didn't need to go to mitigate the threat. Like being slapped in the face and retaliating by breaking several teeth and the person's nose.

I think you're exaggerating a little. I didn't say if someone slapped me, I said if someoneís punched me in the face/nose.

LXH
2009-05-24, 06:40 PM
And...never mind. :smallwink:

LXH
2009-05-24, 06:46 PM
I disagree, someone being smaller or weaker shouldn't give that person the right to attack you and take away your right to deffend yourself.



You would be surprised with the kind of guys I've spoken too.



I think you're exaggerating a little. I didn't say if someone slapped me, I said if someoneís punched me in the face/nose.

It doesn't take an equal response in every case to defend oneself. It all depends on the situation, and if we're talking about a common case of larger man/smaller woman, it's usually enough to push her away or grab her wrists, or just do the good old fashioned bear hug. Provided this isn't some crazy woman off the street, usually you can control the situation afterward by ending contact or the relationship. If it is the crazy woman off the street and she's coming at you like some feral raccoon, then yeah, subdue whichever way you can (and then go get your tetanus/rabies shots).

Yeah, you could hit her the same way she hit you, and probably end up doing a lot more damage. But that's more getting revenge than self defense in most cases. It doesn't have to be the exaggerated example I used, but simply giving a punch-for-punch exchange would leave most women--and half the men--as greater recipients of pain and damage. That kind of thing isn't always necessary if defense is the victim's primary concern.

Recaiden
2009-05-24, 06:53 PM
My point is, you could easily punch her in the stomach or kick her leg out from under her. There's no need to hit someone smaller than you as hard as you'd hit someone your size.

Actually there is. If you pull your punches/kicks/grabs/whatever, they are mor likely to continue attacking you, since they may think you won't fight back or since they are less injured/hurt/in pain/off balance.

THAC0
2009-05-24, 07:15 PM
If you hit anyone and hurt them, that's your problem.

And yes, that also goes for girls too.

Nameless
2009-05-24, 07:36 PM
If you hit anyone and hurt them, that's your problem.

And yes, that also goes for girls too.

Well, that depends. If it's self defence then it's their problem. They're the ones in pain after all.


It doesn't take an equal response in every case to defend oneself. It all depends on the situation, and if we're talking about a common case of larger man/smaller woman, it's usually enough to push her away or grab her wrists, or just do the good old fashioned bear hug. Provided this isn't some crazy woman off the street, usually you can control the situation afterward by ending contact or the relationship. If it is the crazy woman off the street and she's coming at you like some feral raccoon, then yeah, subdue whichever way you can (and then go get your tetanus/rabies shots).

Yeah, you could hit her the same way she hit you, and probably end up doing a lot more damage. But that's more getting revenge than self defense in most cases. It doesn't have to be the exaggerated example I used, but simply giving a punch-for-punch exchange would leave most women--and half the men--as greater recipients of pain and damage. That kind of thing isn't always necessary if defense is the victim's primary concern.

Like you said, it all depends on the situation. But if a random women starts punching me, I'm just as likely to hit her back as if it were a guy.
But like I said, I don't usually like to hit people.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-24, 08:00 PM
I like how this has turned from a discussion on gender perception in society to a discussion on assaulting people.

:smalltongue:

ThunderCat
2009-05-24, 08:06 PM
Would you feel society treats men/boys different from women/girls? I'm not just talking about sexism, but also about people's general view towards individuals of certain gender.

I have to do a school paper on something like this and I would just like some introductory views of different people on this before I start doing my research.From what I can remember from various studies, and interviews with transsexuals (I'd be very interested to hear about your experiences with this LXH):

Men are generally assumed to have higher status and be more intelligent than women. They tend to be awarded a higher salary and have an easier time getting hired. They're also listened more to, and it's considered more acceptable for them to interrupt women than vice versa. Unlike the common perception, it is actually often (though far from always) considered more acceptable for men to show emotions than women. Anger and lust are given, but men also seem to be evaluated more positively when they cry than women are. It is more accepted, and expected, for women to explain the reasons for their emotions, which can often negate the negative consequences of showing emotions in the first place. On the other hand, men are more likely to lose status if they explain themselves.

Women in male-dominated areas are often looked down on by other people in the field, required to 'prove' themselves more, and are at a greater risk of harassment. On the positive side, they're often admired by their surroundings for holding their own in a male field. Men are more likely to be welcomed by other participants in a more typically female field, but on the flip side, they can lose status from their surroundings by engaging in feminine activities. Men tend to provoke more violent reactions from other men, and subsequently suffer a greater risk of being assaulted by strangers. Women are more likely to get assaulted by men they know (especially spouses). Women are more often warned more about not getting assaulted by strangers, despite their statistically smaller risk.

On a more personal level (since I've never heard about a study in this field) it seems women (or actually people in general, but mostly women) are very likely to be labelled feminist (which immediately associates them with a bunch of very negative stereotypes) if they talk about sexism against women, while guys complaining are more often assumed to speak from a personal, or more generally moral, or even a 'neutral' standpoint. Despite a good deal of rather militant and fundamentalist members of the men's rights (and especially fathers' rights) movement, there's no masculinist version of a feminazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi) or straw feminist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist).

Then there's all the obvious stuff, such as how women are more likely to have men buy them drinks than vice versa, but are also more likely to be called nasty names if they have sex with the men buying them drinks (and often even if they don't), or how it's less acceptable for men to hit women than vice versa, but more acceptable for them to bare their chest. But you don't need studies to figure that out :smallsmile:

LXH
2009-05-24, 08:21 PM
On a more personal level (since I've never heard about a study in this field) it seems women (or actually people in general, but mostly women) are very likely to be labelled feminist (which immediate associates them with a bunch of very negative stereotypes) if they talk about sexism against women, while guys complaining are more often assumed to speak from a personal, or more generally moral, or even a 'neutral' standpoint. Despite a good deal of rather militant and fundamentalist members of the men's rights (and especially fathers' rights) movement, there's no masculinist version of a feminazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi) or straw feminist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist).

Great post all around, but this part was absolutely beautiful.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 12:41 AM
Great post all around, but this part was absolutely beautiful.

I'd like to second this, both for the entire post and the segment.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 03:11 AM
Unlike the common perception, it is actually often (though far from always) considered more acceptable for men to show emotions than women. Anger and lust are given, but men also seem to be evaluated more positively when they cry than women are.

A great post all round, but I would just like to point something out.

I think that this point you made isnít all true. Itís not so bad now because Iím in college (although it does apply to a level), but when I was in secondary school, if I were to cry the kids there wouldíve never let it down.
Girls could pretty much cry and let out their emotions freely but if a guy did (or still does it) it would be weird.
A lot of people say that women are under a lot more pressure then men in society, but I think men and women both have a lot of pressures especially when it comes to looking and behaving. Women are expected to look fragile and beautiful or sexy. Men are expected to have a nice toned body in order to be considered attractive (which kinda sucks for me because I canít put on muscles (or at least itís much harder for me)). The media doesnít exactly help men and women when it comes to this and I know that when I compare myself to models in magazines I feel like cripe after. Even though I try not to let these things get to me and I donít usually care much about whatís expected of me by society, it can still be hard sometimes and I know itís just has hard for women.
When it comes to behaving, men are generally expected to be mentally and physicaly strong and not show a lot of fear, even for trivial things like spiders, lights, the dark etc. But it seems to be okay for women.
Even when some women say that the like ďemotional menĒ, I doubt they would want their boyfriend to be scared of spiders.
And vice-versa, women are expected to act opposite to men in many ways and sometimes are under pressure to feel that they have to.

Castaras
2009-05-25, 04:13 AM
Ichneumon: This forum (http://womengamers.com/forums/) I would recommend to you if you want to look up various information about how some women feel they are treated in the gaming and work world.

Yes, I do have an account there but haven't posted there in years, so can't really tell you much, because it's probably out of date already. =P

Personally, I feel the society treats me reasonably well. Sure, we're treated differently to men, but it'd be strange if we weren't, because we are physically and mentally different.

There's a few problems still though I find - how women get paid less some of the time; yet I feel there's also problems going the other way - it really irks me how you get women being chosen over men because they have 2 things that men don't, and don't have a thing men do. Or when you have places giving women more leeway, however if men asked for something like what the women get, it'd be "No, bugger off". :smallmad:

Gender inequality goes both ways. I don't want a matriarchal or a patriarchal society. I just want people to be able to be chosen for their various jobs on their merits, not on what happens to them every month.



Even when some women say that the like ďemotional menĒ, I doubt they would want their boyfriend to be scared of spiders.

Eh, I'm fine with my boy being not so great with spiders, and I'm very happy to deal with spiders instead of him, because he could deal with the wasps which I am scared stiff of. :smallbiggrin:

randman22222
2009-05-25, 04:35 AM
<snip>
because we are physically and mentally different.
<snip>

To what extent can one back this up, I wonder? :smallconfused:
Of course, without specifying how different, and in what ways, I suppose both the statement and my question are a bit weak. :smallconfused:

Anywho, does anyone know any (reputable, scientifically/epistemologically sound) links, articles, books or something on this subject? I'm wondering how many physical and mental differences are reactions to society, and how many happen regardless of a person's environment.

At any rate, I do my best to be genderblind when dealing with people. Not easy. At all. Ever. Especially when you get yelled at for things like not constantly paying restaurant bills, or just generally striving for total non-bias. :smallsigh: :smallfrown:

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 04:37 AM
Men are generally bigger than women, that's not sexist... it just is. :smallconfused:

Comments like that are what got us to sexism today, were they not? I remember in my lifetime when it was acceptable to say that women are less intelligent than men. Why? Because "it just is" fact. Challenging the established belief is generally what activism does.


If you hit anyone and hurt them, that's your problem.

Context. If I feel I am in legitimate life-threatening danger and seriously maim someone in order to survive, then I have not broken any laws and thus it's not my problem.


On a more personal level (since I've never heard about a study in this field) it seems women (or actually people in general, but mostly women) are very likely to be labelled feminist (which immediately associates them with a bunch of very negative stereotypes) if they talk about sexism against women, while guys complaining are more often assumed to speak from a personal, or more generally moral, or even a 'neutral' standpoint. Despite a good deal of rather militant and fundamentalist members of the men's rights (and especially fathers' rights) movement, there's no masculinist version of a feminazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi) or straw feminist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist).

I think this is primarily due to the significantly lower exposure of masculine movements versus feminine movements. Feminism has been a prevalent facet of society for quite some time. Heck, Masculism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism) as a term didn't even exist until the 1990s at the earliest. Even as I write this Chrome has red-lined Masculism as being misspelled or a non-word. In fact, I would go so far as to say were Masculism to rise to the same word-of-mouth level as Feminism then it would stand to reason that "Maninazi" and straw Masculist would be oft used terms.


At any rate, I do my best to be genderblind when dealing with people. Not easy. At all. Ever. Especially when you get yelled at for things like not constantly paying restaurant bills, or just generally striving for total non-bias. :smallsigh: :smallfrown:

As you should know, total non-bias is a pipe-dream. :smalltongue:

randman22222
2009-05-25, 04:46 AM
^: 'Course I know that. Striving for it, however, isn't, and can't really be.


Comments like that are what got us to sexism today, were they not? I remember in my lifetime when it was acceptable to say that women are less intelligent than men. Why? Because "it just is" fact. Challenging the established belief is generally what activism does.

I remember in my fitness classes at my last school, looking at Olympic records, and comparing the male and female records. The women are catching up, yes, even in weightlifting. Again I ask, how much is due to views in society changing, and how much is semi-random quasi-evolutionary stuff? Considering our non-social environments haven't changed too much, I'd go so far as to say that this has to be mostly social change. But then, I've forgotten the dates attached to the said Olympic studies. :smalltongue:


I think this is primarily due to the significantly lower exposure of masculine movements versus feminine movements. Feminism has been a prevalent facet of society for quite some time. Heck, Masculism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism) as a term didn't even exist until the 1990s at the earliest. Even as I write this Chrome has red-lined Masculism as being misspelled or a non-word. In fact, I would go so far as to say were Masculism to rise to the same word-of-mouth level as Feminism then it would stand to reason that "Maninazi" and straw Masculist would be oft used terms.

Is there such a thing as Androgynism? Can I sign up? :smalltongue:

Nameless
2009-05-25, 04:48 AM
Eh, I'm fine with my boy being not so great with spiders, and I'm very happy to deal with spiders instead of him, because he could deal with the wasps which I am scared stiff of. :smallbiggrin:

I see, but I'm scared of both. :smalltongue:

randman22222
2009-05-25, 04:50 AM
I see, but I'm scared of both. :smalltongue:

Just spiders for me. Mostly because they can shoot sticky string out of their rears... And climb up it. And bite you.

Wasps just fly. And are far more frail.

EDIT: What is a pipe-dream, as opposed to a normal dream?

@V: More people need to think like that.
@VV: Circular as it may or may not be (It seems that you haven't written down all of your thoughts, so I shan't judge.), it's still light years ahead of most people I know.

Quincunx
2009-05-25, 04:52 AM
@/\: Actually I'm thinking in a circle here, clarifying things with every circuit but not getting anywhere. People with ideas for exiting the loop are the ones to follow.


I like how this has turned from a discussion on gender perception in society to a discussion on assaulting people.

:smalltongue:

Worshippers of the evangelical and baby-devouring hells, yes!--chop off your penises, hit someone, and see what happens--LXH excepted, for providing the testimony of what happens when you do so but do not use your fists--for all that I wish she'd registered before and was known to us, I hesitate to accept a controlled testimony from an unknown--well, I will tell you about the part LXH skipped, the fact of "I hit him" is my face and the opinion "girls don't hit people" is the pillow bearing down--the opinion looks remarkably like a lie--smells, sounds like a lie--anyone can hit anyone if they are unafraid of the punishment--and if you will pummel me after the first hit, I _must_ disable you with the first hit--leave you as powerless in fact as your opinion of your fist is now--powerlessness (fact? opinion? lie?) and rage and the impulse to slam a fist against flesh, the same state in which we began, transmuted.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 04:57 AM
Just spiders for me. Mostly because they can shoot sticky string out of their rears... And climb up it. And bite you.
Wasps just fly. And are far more frail.


Those God darn Daddy-Long-Legs are the worst.

SPIDERS WITH WINGS I SAY! O_e

Quincunx
2009-05-25, 05:04 AM
What? Daddy-long-legs don't have wings. . .Do you mean those leggy, flying crane flies, the ones that leave an unbelievable amount of stain in proportion to their (lack of) volume when you nail 'em with a newspaper? Reverence for life I ain't got. Spiders are predators of the bugs that are too small for me to handle, though, and so they get one chance to follow the shooing hand out of my house, except for that exotic which crept out (all legs and saucer-wide) from underneath recently used luggage. I dropped a roleplaying book on it. Funny, there weren't even any spiders in that book's setting.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 05:11 AM
What? Daddy-long-legs don't have wings. . .Do you mean those leggy, flying crane flies, the ones that leave an unbelievable amount of stain in proportion to their (lack of) volume when you nail 'em with a newspaper? Reverence for life I ain't got. Spiders are predators of the bugs that are too small for me to handle, though, and so they get one chance to follow the shooing hand out of my house, except for that exotic which crept out (all legs and saucer-wide) from underneath recently used luggage. I dropped a roleplaying book on it. Funny, there weren't even any spiders in that book's setting.

Actually, you can get daddy long legs without (http://www.sagamedev.com/files/journals/CB2A4788-D720-4C26-A042-B0AD34EC6D14/dll-1-full-small.jpg) wings. but the ones we get here are moslty ones with (http://www.samhchair.com/photo/cranefly.jpg) wings.

Castaras
2009-05-25, 05:14 AM
What? Daddy-long-legs don't have wings. . .Do you mean those leggy, flying crane flies, the ones that leave an unbelievable amount of stain in proportion to their (lack of) volume when you nail 'em with a newspaper? Reverence for life I ain't got. Spiders are predators of the bugs that are too small for me to handle, though, and so they get one chance to follow the shooing hand out of my house, except for that exotic which crept out (all legs and saucer-wide) from underneath recently used luggage. I dropped a roleplaying book on it. Funny, there weren't even any spiders in that book's setting.

... You call a different creature daddy long legs. Daddy long legs are what you describe. Yay british peoples!

Keris
2009-05-25, 05:16 AM
Actually, you can get daddy long legs without (http://www.sagamedev.com/files/journals/CB2A4788-D720-4C26-A042-B0AD34EC6D14/dll-1-full-small.jpg) wings. but the ones we get here are moslty ones with (http://www.samhchair.com/photo/cranefly.jpg) wings.

That's a cellar spider and a crane fly. The name "daddy long legs" can be applied to both, but they are unrelated species.

And just so you know, they are not the most venomous creature in the world. They are actually rather harmless. Just creepy.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 05:20 AM
That's a cellar spider and a crane fly. The name "daddy long legs" can be applied to both, but they are unrelated species.

And just so you know, they are not the most venomous creature in the world. They are actually rather harmless. Just creepy.

Look the both have creepy legs, therefor they're both creepy and evil.
And yeah I knew that. :smalltongue:

randman22222
2009-05-25, 05:20 AM
*Threadnudge.*

So the red widow spiders. The big ones that are all poisonous are female, and after being impregnated, they eat the one that impregnated them. The male spiders are scarcely the size of aphids. <More gender related stuff here slowly putting the thread back on topic.>

EDIT: *Plots the demise of TPBM.*

Innis Cabal
2009-05-25, 05:37 AM
That's a cellar spider and a crane fly. The name "daddy long legs" can be applied to both, but they are unrelated species.

And just so you know, they are not the most venomous creature in the world. They are actually rather harmless. Just creepy.

Though neither of those are the American daddy long leg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opiliones)

LXH
2009-05-25, 06:50 AM
@/\: Actually I'm thinking in a circle here, clarifying things with every circuit but not getting anywhere. People with ideas for exiting the loop are the ones to follow.



Worshippers of the evangelical and baby-devouring hells, yes!--chop off your penises, hit someone, and see what happens--LXH excepted, for providing the testimony of what happens when you do so but do not use your fists--for all that I wish she'd registered before and was known to us, I hesitate to accept a controlled testimony from an unknown--well, I will tell you about the part LXH skipped, the fact of "I hit him" is my face and the opinion "girls don't hit people" is the pillow bearing down--the opinion looks remarkably like a lie--smells, sounds like a lie--anyone can hit anyone if they are unafraid of the punishment--and if you will pummel me after the first hit, I _must_ disable you with the first hit--leave you as powerless in fact as your opinion of your fist is now--powerlessness (fact? opinion? lie?) and rage and the impulse to slam a fist against flesh, the same state in which we began, transmuted.
Can you clarify this post? I honestly can't make sense of it for the life of me.

I will, however, object to the rather annoying use of the "chop off your penis" meme. Not exactly what happens, and it's also not the absence of the phallus that does or does not make someone a woman. :smallconfused:

GoC
2009-05-25, 07:20 AM
Wage gap: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20050914/
A clear example of discrimination. One that cannot be explained by payed maternity leave requirements. But I don't understand why it comes about...:smallconfused:
Why do people discriminate in this fashion?


Glass ceiling: http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4197626
Partially explainable as delayed discimination and a possible lack of desire (due to the slow social shift)? Just trying to come up with an explanation beyond "99% of superiors are bigots" <- unrealistic for obvious reasons


Personally, I'm all for paid maternity AND paternity leave. May I ask why you do not seem to be in favor of paid maternity leave?
After looking it up I've changed my mind. Paid leave for both.:smallbiggrin:


Whether or not they want reliability or not, it's still discrimination based on gender, is it not?
Discrimination isn't automatically a bad word. You can discriminate against people who are less intelligent or not as good looking. You can also discriminate against people who may spontaneously take a year long break that you have to pay for.

btw: DamnedIrishman speaks the truth!

LXH: I have a firm rule against taking anecdotes into account (especially from a random stranger and not a person with a reputation to preserve) so I can't really accept your testimony at face value. However, It's interesting enough to be worht considering. I really should get off my arse and do some research but it's hard to find trustworthy sources an the internet.


On a more personal level (since I've never heard about a study in this field) it seems women (or actually people in general, but mostly women) are very likely to be labelled feminist (which immediately associates them with a bunch of very negative stereotypes) if they talk about sexism against women, while guys complaining are more often assumed to speak from a personal, or more generally moral, or even a 'neutral' standpoint. Despite a good deal of rather militant and fundamentalist members of the men's rights (and especially fathers' rights) movement, there's no masculinist version of a feminazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi) or straw feminist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist).
Can't speak for anyone else but I don't even know a militant supporter (iow: a preacher) of men's rights but I do know a few feminazis. Are militant feminists more common than militant masculinists?
I know plenty of people with a vague "men are worse off in a divorce and it's unfair" when the topic comes up but nothing as extreme as some feminists ("all men are rapists just waiting for the chance"?:smallconfused:).


To what extent can one back this up, I wonder? :smallconfused:
It's currently impossible. The type of experiment required to test it is one we are both unwilling and unable (due to practical considerations) to do.
Once our genetic code has been deciphered...
Then again, it seems that the easiest way of finding out what each gene codes for requires deactivating it and seeing what the result is. Something we are, again, unwilling to do.:smallfrown:

LXH: What does make someone a women then? Is it physical or something deeper? Desiring a female body? Having a female body? Conforming with the stereotypes and social norms that are "female"?

LXH
2009-05-25, 07:36 AM
LXH: What does make someone a women then? Is it physical or something deeper? Desiring a female body? Having a female body? Conforming with the stereotypes and social norms that are "female"?

That's a good question, and one that usually makes me uncomfortable because I don't believe in gender stereotypes. Especially the ones that a lot of trans women use like "well, from as young as five I always wanted to play with Barbie instead of GI Joe." That's total garbage. Kids will play with just about anything if you don't stigmatize what they're doing as inappropriate.

I think it's best to let the individual decide what makes them most comfortable. I didn't transition because I wanted to wear certain clothes or wear my hair a certain way; it was due to a basic and persistent discomfort with the physical sex of my body that dated back to as long as I could remember, and that's all there was to it. My personal opinion, after having read certain studies and research, is that the brain is blueprinted, so to speak, during pregnancy and is either masculinized or feminized to the extent of expecting certain parts and not expecting others to be there, and a trans person's brain perhaps is hit with the wrong infusion of hormones at the wrong time which causes the outer body to go one way and the brain the other.

That last point is why the gender absolutists bother me when they declare you're either XY or XX, and if you're XY you can only ever be a man. Putting aside the fact that there are other chromosomal combinations that muddy the waters even more (like XXY), there's no way to tell how an individual's brain is wired. If someone wants to use the minutiae of a person's body to discredit their claims, they need to be ready to consider all of that person's body, including the brain.

And I guess this makes you the second person to suggest that what I'm saying is worthless because I haven't been here prior to this thread. Pretty unfair, but not much I can do except hang around until I've gained some tenure and credibility.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 07:59 AM
What does make someone a women then? Is it physical or something deeper? Desiring a female body? Having a female body? Conforming with the stereotypes and social norms that are "female"?

Genitals. Including 'modified' ones.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 08:06 AM
The way I see, if you're born a man, you die a man. It doesn't matter what you do or what kind of surgery you have. You're a guy. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, in fact I respect people who get it done because it shows that they have a lot of guts and I think that people are slowly becoming more open to it. (very slowly) which is good. But at the end of the day, you're still a guy.
It was like that whole ďman gives birthĒ thing. But it wasnít a man, it a woman, otherwise she wouldnít of have been able to give birth.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 08:16 AM
I can only imagine it to be quite disturbing to live a very large part of your life in a body of the opposite gender you feel you are supposed to be and I have a large respect for anyone who can come out and admit it and change it. It's very brave and should be more accepted in our society.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 08:20 AM
The way I see, if you're born a man, you die a man. It doesn't matter what you do or what kind of surgery you have. You're a guy. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, in fact I respect people who get it done because it shows that they have a lot of guts and I think that people are slowly becoming more open to it. (very slowly) which is good. But at the end of the day, you're still a guy.
It was like that whole ďman gives birthĒ thing. But it wasnít a man, it a woman, otherwise she wouldnít of have been able to give birth.

So you judge gender by chromosomes then?

Nameless
2009-05-25, 08:39 AM
So you judge gender by chromosomes then?

A bit more then that, but Pretty much, yeah.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 08:44 AM
A bit more then that, but Pretty much, yeah.

What else then? Chromosomal (XX or XY in one of 23 pairs) differences are the only genetic differences between male and female. The reason we have different physiology (and arguably different minds) is due to different hormones released into our bodies, initially as babies (causing the formation of the genitals) and then through our lives. And it is generally accepted that hormones do have an effect on the brain, which is interpretable as why men and women sometimes seem to think and react in slightly different ways (or occasionally completely different ways).

You were born a woman before you mutated due to testosterone. That's why you have nipples.

GoC
2009-05-25, 08:47 AM
And I guess this makes you the second person to suggest that what I'm saying is worthless because I haven't been here prior to this thread. Pretty unfair, but not much I can do except hang around until I've gained some tenure and credibility.
Worthless?! Certainly not! But I cannot be sure that you are telling the truth because this is the internet. People lie all the time.
However someone with a long history here is less likely to lie due to the fact that inconsistencies can appear in their story over time. If you've got 2000+ posts there's a decent chance two will contradict if you don't tell the truth about yourself. Expecially as with that many posts you can get a feel to someone's character and tell wether they're the kind of person to lie about it.

Nameless: You do realize that all you're doing is defining "guy" and not refuting anyone, right?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 08:49 AM
Expecially as with that many posts you can get a feel to someone's character and tell wether they're the kind of person to lie about it.


Yes, and I get a feel for your character being just as naturally argumentive as mine!
:smallbiggrin:

To many debates and blessedly few discussion-killing agreements!

Nameless
2009-05-25, 08:52 AM
Nameless: You do realize that all you're doing is defining "guy" and not refuting anyone, right?

I wasn't trying to refute anyone... :smallconfused:
I was just giving my opinion, whilst some consider going under the knife can give you a different gender, I say that's it's more complicated then that.

LXH
2009-05-25, 09:07 AM
I wasn't trying to refute anyone... :smallconfused:
I was just giving my opinion, whilst some consider going under the knife can give you a different gender, I say that's it's more complicated then that.

Nature is never as absolute as you're being. Did you give any thought to the whole brain vs. genitalia concept? Sometimes they are not congruous, and it is neither fair nor accurate to give significance only to one.

Also, there's the whole thing about women with AIS. For all intents and purposes, they are outwardly female--never had male genitals or other masculine traits--but by your definition they are "guys" because they have a Y chromosome. It's just weird to place top priority on the one factor you can't even see or discern when there are so many other variables staring you in the face.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 09:13 AM
Nature is never as absolute as you're being. Did you give any thought to the whole brain vs. genitalia concept? Sometimes they are not congruous, and it is neither fair nor accurate to give significance only to one.

Also, there's the whole thing about women with AIS. For all intents and purposes, they are outwardly female--never had male genitals or other masculine traits--but by your definition they are "guys" because they have a Y chromosome. It's just weird to place top priority on the one factor you can't even see or discern when there are so many other variables staring you in the face.

Thatís not what I mean. What I mean is, nature made you a guy, and you can have as much surgery as you want, but youíre still a guy. You might change your genitals and hormones but at the end of it all, youíre still male. And vice-versa.
A lot of people would disagree with me but thatís how I see it. Like I said, I honestly have nothing against trans-genders and I have a lot of respect for them, but in my eyeís guy that has a sex change is still a guy.

LXH
2009-05-25, 09:22 AM
Thatís not what I mean. What I mean is, nature made you a guy, and you can have as much surgery as you want, but youíre still a guy. You might change your genitals and hormones but at the end of it all, youíre still male. And vice-versa.
A lot of people would disagree with me but thatís how I see it. Like I said, I honestly have nothing against trans-genders and I have a lot of respect for them, but in my eyeís guy that has a sex change is still a guy.
You seem to be focusing solely on corrective actions and not the reasons for why they are taken. That's what I keep trying to get you to consider, but you're operating from a binary gender system that, for purposes of making an argument fit, excludes many variations in the spectrum that are found in nature and in our species.

I agree with you that someone with XY chromosomes will always have XY chromosomes, but that is hardly what makes up what is often socially or scientifically classified as "male."

Oh, and about the "pregnant man." That story was sensationalized and became sort of ridiculous after a while. Thomas Beatty isn't even the first trans man to become pregnant, but it's still pretty disrespectful to refer to him as a "she" simply to make a statement. He is legally male and identifies as male himself. Stripping a person of their pronouns is the same as attacking their identity, and I don't know if it's accurate to say on the one hand that you respect trans people while on the other you're insisting you know better when it comes to what gender each person is.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 09:29 AM
Stripping a person of their pronouns is the same as attacking their identity, and I don't know if it's accurate to say on the one hand that you respect trans people while on the other you're insisting you know better when it comes to what gender each person is.

This. Very much this. Well said.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 09:30 AM
You seem to be focusing solely on corrective actions and not the reasons for why they are taken. That's what I keep trying to get you to consider, but you're operating from a binary gender system that, for purposes of making an argument fit, excludes many variations in the spectrum that are found in nature and in our species.

I agree with you that someone with XY chromosomes will always have XY chromosomes, but that is hardly what makes up what is often socially or scientifically classified as "male."

Oh, and about the "pregnant man." That story was sensationalized and became sort of ridiculous after a while. Thomas Beatty isn't even the first trans man to become pregnant, but it's still pretty disrespectful to refer to him as a "she" simply to make a statement. He is legally male and identifies as male himself. Stripping a person of their pronouns is the same as attacking their identity, and I don't know if it's accurate to say on the one hand that you respect trans people while on the other you're insisting you know better when it comes to what gender each person is.

I think you're twisting my words. Viewing a man who has had a sex change as a man is not disrespectful, I can't help how I see people and what I think about people, many thoughts come subconsciously. I would still refer to that person as she when talking about them or talking to them, but I wouldn't personally see them as a she.
Even people who say "Yes I few him as a she", many (not all) would still think of them as man deep down. You can't help how you feel about people, these feelings just come to you subconsciously.
I can still respect a trans-gender and think of them as their original sex.

LXH
2009-05-25, 09:35 AM
I think you're twisting my words. Viewing a man who has had a sex change as a man is not disrespectful, I can't help how I see people and what I think about people, many thoughts come subconsciously. I would still refer to that person as she when talking about them or talking to them, but I wouldn't personally see them as a she.
Even people who say "Yes I few him as a she", many (not all) would still think of them as man deep down. You can't help how you feel about people, these feelings just come to you subconsciously.
I can still respect a trans-gender and think of them as their original sex.

You absolutely can help how you feel about people. The first step is learning as much about them as you can and discarding the "one size fits all" mentality in which you try to hammer round pegs into square openings. It's not always the peg who's wrong. :smallsmile:

Nameless
2009-05-25, 09:51 AM
You absolutely can help how you feel about people. The first step is learning as much about them as you can and discarding the "one size fits all" mentality in which you try to hammer round pegs into square openings. It's not always the peg who's wrong. :smallsmile:


I used to consider trans-genders as their new sex, but I just realised that the gender you're born into is the gender you're going to die in, that's just how I feel. If I were to get a sex change, I think I would still realise this.
I'm not saying you can't change how you feel about someone, but you can't help the feeling that you're feeling. I might change how I feel about at a later point, but at the moment that's how I feel.

I know it's difficult for you to believe me, but frankly- I couldn't care less if the person is a man, women, trans-gender, gay, bisexual, pansexual, heterosexual or whatever, I honestly don't look at things like that.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 09:54 AM
You absolutely can help how you feel about people. The first step is learning as much about them as you can and discarding the "one size fits all" mentality in which you try to hammer round pegs into square openings. It's not always the peg who's wrong. :smallsmile:

Actually, in a man who wants a sex-change, it IS the 'peg' that is wrong.

BAH-ZING!

LXH
2009-05-25, 09:58 AM
I used to consider trans-genders as their new sex, but I just realised that the gender you're born into is the gender you're going to die in, that's just how I feel. If I were to get a sex change, I think I would still realise this.
I'm not saying you can't change how you feel about someone, but you can't help the feeling that you're feeling. I might change how I feel about at a later point, but at the moment that's how I feel.

I know it's difficult for you to believe me, but frankly- I couldn't care less if the person is a man, women, trans-gender, gay, bisexual, pansexual or whatever, I honestly don't look at things like that.
If you didn't think about things like that you would not make it a point to still think of someone who is outwardly male or female as the opposite sex. Also, you're conflating sex with gender. They are not always in alignment, which is why I've been trying so hard to stress the point about internal factors that those on the outside can't discern. Just because they aren't conveniently tangible does not remove them from consideration.

And in the case of trans people, the gender they're born in IS the gender they'll die in. It just happens that their gender isn't the same as their outward sex, so in this case we are in agreement, but for entirely different reasons.

Did you consider the other examples I gave? AIS or intersex people? Some are born with chromosomes of both and genitals of both sexes. Does your binary system have a place for those individuals?

Recaiden
2009-05-25, 10:00 AM
Thatís not what I mean. What I mean is, nature made you a guy, and you can have as much surgery as you want, but youíre still a guy. You might change your genitals and hormones but at the end of it all, youíre still male. And vice-versa.
A lot of people would disagree with me but thatís how I see it. Like I said, I honestly have nothing against trans-genders and I have a lot of respect for them, but in my eyeís guy that has a sex change is still a guy.

What makes them still a guy to you then? I see it as very disrespectful. You can respect other things about them, but if you won't accept their gender, you're not really accepting them. And if you don't care about sexual preference or gender, why won't you think of them as their new gender?

FatJose
2009-05-25, 10:04 AM
Maybe not in a grocery store. But how about an auto shop? Honestly, I HATE taking the cars in to be serviced without my husband, because I get treated like a complete moron.

Similar note: buying cars. It is my experience that the salespeople look at the men as the deciders and all they tell the women about (if anything) are things like "Oh, aren't these leather seats gorgeous."

Well then, now that you mention that, I usually get looks when I get my Martha Stewart on at Target. Two men can't have a conversation about a very "kitschy" looking microwave without getting the accusing look. I like women..can't I also like cool kitchen appliances?

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:06 AM
Well then, now that you mention that, I usually get looks when I get my Martha Stewart on at Target. Two men can't have a conversation about a very "kitschy" looking microwave without getting the accusing look. I like women..can't I also like cool kitchen appliances?
Absolutely you can. You just have to be prepared to defend yourself for several pages on the internets in order to get people to rethink things they've always taken for granted. :smalltongue:

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 10:07 AM
Thatís not what I mean. What I mean is, nature made you a guy, and you can have as much surgery as you want, but youíre still a guy. You might change your genitals and hormones but at the end of it all, youíre still male. And vice-versa.


Actually, nature made us all women. Then we mutate due to presence of testosterone. Thus, nipples.

What's the difference between natural mutation and the artificial mutation that transgenders work upon themselves with surgery and hormone therapy?

Nameless
2009-05-25, 10:08 AM
Did you consider the other examples I gave? AIS or intersex people? Some are born with chromosomes of both and genitals of both sexes. Does your binary system have a place for those individuals?

Do you mean Hermaphrodites?


What makes them still a guy to you then? I see it as very disrespectful. You can respect other things about them, but if you won't accept their gender, you're not really accepting them. And if you don't care about sexual preference or gender, why won't you think of them as their new gender?

Because I try and see people for what they really are. But I also respect who they really are inside, and if they're the opposite sex on the inside then I would refer to them as that sex, if that's what they wanted.


Actually, nature made us all women. Then we mutate due to presence of testosterone. Thus, nipples.

What's the difference between natural mutation and the artificial mutation that transgenders work upon themselves with surgery and hormone therapy?

That's not a mutation, that's part of development.
Mutation is something that changes in the genes which is not supposed to happen or is abnormal.

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:11 AM
Do you mean Hermaphrodites?



Because I try and see people for what they really are. But I also respect who they really are inside, and if they're the opposite sex on the inside then I would refer to them as that sex, if that's what they wanted.
"Hermaphrodite" is something of a pejorative in the intersex community, from what I understand. And yes, I am talking about them. Where do you put them?

My problem is that you've taken it upon yourself to decide what a person really is. That idea isn't compatible with respecting someone when they say they are what they are. It's also refusing to take the other factors into consideration. Accommodating their choice of pronoun is a good start, but I'd hate to find out you were only doing it for convention and didn't really believe it.


That's not a mutation, that's part of development. It's also part of development when prenatal hormones work to shape the developing brain into what it will be and identify as later in life. Glad we're in agreement.

dish
2009-05-25, 10:14 AM
Intersexuality, as always, wiki knows everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex).

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 10:14 AM
I'd say that you should let people decide for themselves what gender they want to be and that you should respect that, although you can of course say that someone really looks like a boy or girl, in some cases that doesn't equate to what they are and you should respect that.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 10:18 AM
"Hermaphrodite" is something of a pejorative in the intersex community, from what I understand. And yes, I am talking about them. Where do you put them?

That depends, are they hermaphrodites because they went through surgery or some sort of procedure?


My problem is that you've taken it upon yourself to decide what a person really is. That idea isn't compatible with respecting someone when they say they are what they are. It's also refusing to take the other factors into consideration. Accommodating their choice of pronoun is a good start, but I'd hate to find out you were only doing it for convention and didn't really believe it.

The difference is, unlike other people that pretend that they consider trans-genders as their new sex even in their thoughts, I'm actually admitting and saying how I actually feel about it. I guarantee, in fact; I promise you that most of the people that say they consider trans-genders as their new gender, deep down still think of them as their old gender.
Are those people who don't admit it disrespectful just because they're not honest about it?


I'd say that you should let people decide for themselves what gender they want to be and that you should respect that, although you can of course say that someone really looks like a boy or girl, in some cases that doesn't equate to what they are and you should respect that.

And I do respect that, which is why I would refer to them as their chosen gender. But in my thoughts I would think about that person in the gender they were born to.

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:21 AM
One of the most consistent themes I've encountered post-transition is people really hate to suddenly have to rethink things they've always taken for granted since their earlier days. Men are men and women are women because that's what they are. We aren't usually given cause to think about what makes us men or women, and when confronted with someone who doesn't conform to the norm, it can be extremely discomfiting; akin to having a cornerstone ripped from the foundation that holds up everything we think we know and believe about humanity.

But it should be noted that this behavior is a human convention. Nature itself loves deviations and even thrives on it. It's our society that hates challenges to The Way Things Are because it's not taught as a part of our foundation and in many ways can initially be seen as a threat (see the "marriage equality equals marriage destruction" argument).

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:24 AM
That depends, are they hermaphrodites because they went through surgery or some sort of procedure?
I am talking about people who are born intersex.



The difference is, unlike other people that pretend that they consider trans-genders as their new sex even in their thoughts, I'm actually admitting and saying how I actually feel about it. I guarantee, in fact; I promise you that most of the people that say they consider trans-genders as their new gender, deep down still think of them as their old gender.
Are those people who don't admit it disrespectful just because they're not honest about it?
Yes, it's quite easy to disrespect someone in your thoughts. I prefer people to be forthcoming so that differences can be discussed, as is happening now. I think your approach is disrespectful because you only seem to want to consider the factors that would back up your argument, and when confronted with realities that exist outside the binary system, you've ignored them entirely.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 10:28 AM
That's not a mutation, that's part of development.
Mutation is something that changes in the genes which is not supposed to happen or is abnormal.

Our bodies and minds continue to develop outside the womb. What is the real difference between gender changes and say, deliberate exercise (to modify one's muscle mass) or education (to improve one's brain)?

You were born a helpless infant. That doesn't mean you'll always be one.

dish
2009-05-25, 10:32 AM
LXH is right. Nature doesn't neatly provide us with two biological sexes, instead there is a lot of variation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions). Genes don't always correlate with physical primary and secondary sexual characteristics, let alone with gender.

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:36 AM
Here is a very good, very detailed study on variations in the limbic nucleus and striae terminalis (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034) among transgender individuals.

I strongly recommend reading it to anyone who doesn't believe the brain should be given at least as much consideration as one's chromosomes or physical appearance in determining gender identity.


Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 10:37 AM
I am talking about people who are born intersex.


Yes, it's quite easy to disrespect someone in your thoughts. I prefer people to be forthcoming so that differences can be discussed, as is happening now. I think your approach is disrespectful because you only seem to want to consider the factors that would back up your argument, and when confronted with realities that exist outside the binary system, you've ignored them entirely.

Iím going to end this particular part of the discussion for a few reason. As much as I honestly would like to discuss this, you seem to be making personal assumptions, not just that but these accusations are things that Iím totally against and Iím finding it a little frustrating because youíre just repeating these and Iím also finding it hard to explain and justify myself properly and fully simply by typing. I also donít want this to get heated up further and I know that we probably wonít end up reaching an any sort of neutral ground like this.
And because weíve gone slightly off-topic. :smalltongue:
I would just like to say one last thing, and that is that I in no way or form discriminate, dislike, or think less of any trans-gender and that I do not usually think of this when socialising with a person. I also totally understand and take into account the notes mentioned above. ^

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 10:38 AM
Nature doesn't provide us with a gender. Nature provides us with a unique personality that cannot be neatly categorized, and a sex. It's people that provide us with a gender depending on our sex and the most common traits seen in our sex.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 10:40 AM
From gender perceptions, to assault, to intersexuality! Huzzah for thread hijacks!

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:41 AM
From gender perceptions, to assault, to intersexuality! Huzzah for thread hijacks!
To be fair, we are technically still discussing gender perceptions. :smalltongue: But I do apologize for continuing the threadjacking for so long.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 10:43 AM
I'm slightly confused by how I posted a topic that was so easy to get off-topic and turn turn in some what heated debates, more than once...

Not that I mind, it is very interesting.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 10:44 AM
Nature doesn't provide us with a gender. Nature provides us with a unique personality that cannot be neatly categorized, and a sex. It's people that provide us with a gender depending on our sex and the most common traits seen in our sex.

You're right, sex and gender are two different things.
A person's sex can be female but their gender can be male.
Which is how I view the whole trans-gender thing.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 10:46 AM
You're right, sex and gender are two different things.
A person's sex can be female but their gender can be male.

Don't get drawn in again after you so carefully removed yourself.

:smallwink:

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 10:48 AM
DamnedIrishMan: You seem like a guy to like politics? Are you enjoying the political debates for the European elections as much I am?

Nameless
2009-05-25, 10:48 AM
Don't get drawn in again after you so carefully removed yourself.

:smallwink:

I removed myself from that particular argument, not the discussion. :smalltongue:

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:49 AM
I removed myself from that particular argument, not the discussion. :smalltongue:
I didn't see our discussion as being particularly heated. :smallconfused:

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 10:52 AM
A person's sex can be female but their gender can be male.

Wrong. A person's sex can be female. That's it. Gender is a sociological construct which only has a slight basis in reality.

I refuse to categorize personalities according to the prevalent traits of sexes.

Vizen
2009-05-25, 10:53 AM
A whole page went past as I was cooking some bacon. :smallannoyed:


To be fair, we are technically still discussing gender perceptions. :smalltongue: But I do apologize for continuing the threadjacking for so long.

Going back to the topic at hand now are we? :smallsmile:

As I was cooking I got to thinking about the topic and thought I'd put in my two cents.
I work in a supermarket, in the checkouts department, which a lot of men don't tend to work in, and as such I get the odd comment from a customer saying "Oh..You don't see much men on the checkouts" or parents saying (before looking at the checkout operator) "Put the lollies on the checkout so the nice lady can scan it" before noticing my gender and correcting themselves, but on the whole im treated just like any other checkout operator The problem with jobs is that even though a unisex society is being pushed for, people are still expected to work in certain areas, you don't expect to see a man on the checkouts just the same as you don't expect to see a woman on a construction site.
As for the wages side of things, I believe that depends on the person who writes your paycheck. I'm getting $12.90 an hour, whereas most of the other checkout girls are getting $14.20 an hour. This one isn't based on gender, its based on time with the company, pretty soon ill be getting paid the same as everyone else.

...I was going to say some other things, but I got distracted. I ate all my bacon! :smallfrown:

dish
2009-05-25, 10:54 AM
We have intersexuality, and we also have intergender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergender). Again, it's not necessarily a binary. And I don't think this discussion was an example of thread-drift. Gender and society covers a lot of ground.

(That said, I preferred the bit about cultural differences in the naming of a daddy-long-legs.)

Recaiden
2009-05-25, 10:54 AM
You're right, sex and gender are two different things.
A person's sex can be female but their gender can be male.
Which is how I view the whole trans-gender thing.
True. But I think it's more like their sex used to be male and female gender, and now their sex is female along with their gender. Or the other way around.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 10:54 AM
Would someone be gay if he fell in love with someone of the same gender, but not the same sex? What about same sex, yet different gender?

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:55 AM
Wrong. A person's sex can be female. That's it. Gender is a sociological construct which only has a slight basis in reality.

I refuse to categorize personalities according to the prevalent traits of sexes.
I don't know about this (see the study I linked to on the last page). Most people definitely are gendered to varying degrees one way or another. It's when society interprets what gender means that we get it all wrong. It's more of a "this is what makes me comfortable" thing and not a "hah! You have boobies so you can't do math or navigate" thing.

But approaching things from a gender neutral perspective is probably ideal since it's not good to go in with assumptions about people, so I do agree with the principle behind what you're saying.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 10:56 AM
Would someone be gay if he fell in love with someone of the same gender, but not the same sex? What about same sex, yet different gender?

In my opinion (which does not accept gender as a valid way of viewing personalities)? No. When it comes to matters of sexuality, your sex is the only thing that matters.

LXH
2009-05-25, 10:57 AM
Would someone be gay if he fell in love with someone of the same gender, but not the same sex? What about same sex, yet different gender?

Sexual orientation is usually specific to the sexes and their typical characteristics. If a woman fell in love with a woman who identified as male, but the attraction was to a physical female, that would be gay. If it was a "staying together for love's sake" deal, then probably not so gay. Then again, there are oceans in between the two to have fun swimming around in. :smallsmile:

Vizen
2009-05-25, 10:57 AM
Would someone be gay if he fell in love with someone of the same gender, but not the same sex? What about same sex, yet different gender?

I happen to just love my friend Jerry. Big guy is just a giant teddy bear. We are almost always on the same wavelength and often have 'girly moments' about something, yet at the end of the day I'm still in love with my girlfriend.

Wait, thats not what you asked. =/

Nameless
2009-05-25, 11:01 AM
Wrong. A person's sex can be female. That's it. Gender is a sociological construct which only has a slight basis in reality.

I refuse to categorize personalities according to the prevalent traits of sexes.

What I mean is, a person can have a Y and X chromosome, making his sex male, then get a sex change and his social GENDER be legally female.


In my opinion (which does not accept gender as a valid way of viewing personalities)? No. When it comes to matters of sexuality, your sex is the only thing that matters.

And in my opinion we should just abandon these labels as they confuse people too much these days when it comes to things like this. :smalltongue:
Hopeful, if we abandon these labels people would become more open minded and less critical of otherís sexual preferences as there's nothing to label them as.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 11:02 AM
And in my opinion we should just abandon these labels as they confuse people too much these days when it comes to things like this. :smalltongue:
Hopeful, if we abandon these labels people would become more open minded and less critical of otherís sexual preferences as there's nothing to label them as.

I agree, it seems far to limited to label people as their are all kinds of weird exceptions and loopholes.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 11:05 AM
DamnedIrishMan: You seem like a guy to like politics? Are you enjoying the political debates for the European elections as much I am?

Debates? On each side you get erudite and educated speakers reasoning for and against a unified Europe, with good points raised by both sides. And then, in the middle ignoring the debate you get a huge crowd of reactonaries wanting to leave Europe because they think it is the source of the global financial crisis.

Aye aye aye. Why do people default to bigoted xenophobia in any time of crisis?


But the erudite and educated people are entertaining to watch, yes.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 11:06 AM
Debates? On each side you get erudite and educated speakers reasoning for and against a unified Europe, with good points raised by both sides. And then, in the middle ignoring the debate you get a huge crowd of reactonaries wanting to leave Europe because they think it is the source of the global financial crisis.

Aye aye aye. Why do people default to bigoted xenophobia in any time of crisis?

But the erudite and educated people are entertaining to watch, yes.

I fully agree.:smallbiggrin:

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 11:06 AM
And in my opinion we should just abandon these labels as they confuse people too much these days when it comes to things like this. :smalltongue:
Hopeful, if we abandon these labels people would become more open minded and less critical of otherís sexual preferences as there's nothing to label them as.

I disagree: instead, we should adopt new labels that purely cover the imporatnt bits.
To start the ball rolling, I'll label myself:

I'm a male-genital gynosexual. Anyone else like to continue?

Nameless
2009-05-25, 11:07 AM
I agree, it seems far to limited to label people as their are all kinds of weird exceptions and loopholes.

Let's see...

Heterosexual
Homosexual
Bisexual
Pansexual
Polysexual

Those are the five main ones, how many other ones can do we know of? :smalltongue:

@Irishman: Isn't gynosexual just an umbrella term for heterosexual? Or is it slightly different?

LXH
2009-05-25, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure I understand the consistency behind wanting to shirk all labels of sexuality (which I agree with) but insisting sex itself must be set in stone, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

dish
2009-05-25, 11:11 AM
What I mean is, a person can have a Y and X chromosome, making his sex male, then get a sex change and his social GENDER be legally female.

But, people can be born with an XY chromosome and female genitalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Complete_AIS). An XY chromosome does not necessarily give someone the male sex.


And in my opinion we should just abandon these labels as they confuse people too much these days when it comes to things like this. :smalltongue:
Hopeful, if we abandon these labels people would become more open minded and less critical of otherís sexual preferences as there's nothing to label them as.

I think humans like classifying things a bit too much for that to be possible. Though it does remind me of a quotation from Trainspotting.

Quincunx
2009-05-25, 11:12 AM
Worthless?! Certainly not! But I cannot be sure that you are telling the truth because this is the internet. People lie all the time.
However someone with a long history here is less likely to lie due to the fact that inconsistencies can appear in their story over time. If you've got 2000+ posts there's a decent chance two will contradict if you don't tell the truth about yourself. Expecially as with that many posts you can get a feel to someone's character and tell wether they're the kind of person to lie about it.

Ditto this for why I expressed doubt, and doubly so because of all the times I've sat back during such discussions here and wondered "Why can't we find someone with this experience of both male and female*? That would control for any difference in personality causing the different perceptions." Call yourself too good to be true, LXH, it's more accurate, at least from where I'm sitting.

*****

Most of what I've had to say about the last page of the thread has been covered in the LGBT thread, probably more than once. As a forewarning, though, since it was started to be a collection point and support, it's only built to handle one dissenting (yet willing to find common ground) poster at a time, and we've got more than that in here, thus no direct link. Read over it, it's interesting, but maybe we shouldn't all pile into it like an invading army. If you don't wish to read over it, here's my stance, digested: We are what we're born to be, sex organs first and chromosomes only if those are inconclusive, and there's presently no way of unshackling ourselves from that body; the only ones searching for a way instead of reconciling to the shackles are the transsexual; the ones who still are searching I respect as the field slave respects the abolitionist, the ones who call themselves my sisters in shackles I do not respect at all.

*****

@V is the way to address a remark to the post below yours and @/\ to the post before, used mostly when people are posting so fast they ninja-post atop one another. Those remarks don't always fall in the same timeline as the rest of the post.

*****

The feminine are assumed not to hit first. The androgyne believe that nobody should be hit. What group, then, believes that hitting first is a privilege being withheld from them? What is the classic metaphor for removing someone from that group (which, also, is insufficient to push them into a new one)? I will continue to use that metaphor, because for once I've got one that works as intended!

*The regulars are all pre-, if my information isn't outdated: masculine identity cards and such.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 11:16 AM
But, people can be born with an XY chromosome and female genitalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Complete_AIS). An XY chromosome does not necessarily give someone the male sex.

It also does not make them female, however. It makes them "other", on grounds of being incapable of reproducing as befits their allosomes (or being incapable of reproducing at all).

dish
2009-05-25, 11:17 AM
@^ Hence, "intersex".

LXH
2009-05-25, 11:18 AM
It also does not make them female, however. It makes them "other", on grounds of being incapable of reproducing as befits their allosomes (or being incapable of reproducing at all).
There are genetic, chromosomally correct women who also cannot reproduce. We're getting into dangerous territory by defining people based on their ability to procreate.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 11:21 AM
There are genetic, chromosomally correct women females who also cannot reproduce. We're getting into dangerous territory by defining people based on their ability to procreate.

Being sterile due to allosomal problems is far from being sterile due to... other genetic factors. I'm pretty sure they are also based on allosomes, but you get what I mean.

LXH
2009-05-25, 11:23 AM
Being sterile due to allosomal problems is far from being sterile due to... other genetic factors. I'm pretty sure they are also based on allosomes, but you get what I mean.
I do. Which is why my default position is "why don't we just ask the person?" There's simply too much gray area for anyone to walk around sticking labels on others based on narrow criteria.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 11:27 AM
Let's see...

Heterosexual
Homosexual
Bisexual
Pansexual
Polysexual

Those are the five main ones, how many other ones can do we know of? :smalltongue:

@Irishman: Isn't gynosexual just an umbrella term for heterosexual? Or is it slightly different?

Gynosexual implies sexual attraction to women. Androsexual would be the sexual attraction to men.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 11:28 AM
The main problem I would personally have with changing sex, if I wanted to do it, would be that you would still be able to see that you weren't born the same sex you are now. I'd be interested to know your opinion on this LXH. As I can imagine the social pressure from everybody looking at you when they see you are transgender would be enormous. Not trying to be disrespectful, I have no idea how you look, just imagining.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 11:31 AM
I'm not sure I understand the consistency behind wanting to shirk all labels of sexuality (which I agree with) but insisting sex itself must be set in stone, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Gender is entirely unimportant, as it's something which affects personal identity and thus is entirely people's own business.

I insist sexuality should be labelled purely for the benefit of other people. If people identified themselves purely by what they've got and what they want, then people can pair up based on what they're looking for.

I, as a male-genital gynosexual am thus looking for a female-genital andro- or -bisexual, rather than male-genital andro- or bi-sexuals or female-genital gynosexuals (although it's fairer to say they're not interested in me).

LXH
2009-05-25, 11:34 AM
The main problem I would personally have with changing sex, if I wanted to do it, would be that you would still be able to see that you weren't born the same sex you are now. I'd be interested to know your opinion on this LXH.
One of the more agonizing points to be sure. If anything, this reality should speak to the overwhelming desire the person would have to still follow through despite this possibility. One of the things I'm extremely grateful for is not having developed into an incredibly masculine looking man (my dad is 6'5") and my features were always somewhat ambiguous. I also transitioned relatively young (20's) as opposed to those who do it in their 50's when all hope of living without broadcasting your medical and psychological histories is almost completely gone.

This is one of the most important reasons for getting society comfortable with this reality as soon as possible, so that trans kids don't have to wait until they're completely done with puberty before they can transition. If they can be assessed early enough, they'd be able to start in their teens and develop almost identically along with their same-gendered peers, thus sparing them a potential life of ridicule, discrimination, and increased likelihood of violence.

Not trying to be disrespectful, I have no idea how you look, just imagining.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Lenut/40a.jpg

Sorry, I have a thing about posting overly clear photos online.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 11:41 AM
<picture>

Sorry, I have a thing about posting overly clear photos online.

Oh you didn't have to do that, I'm also very careful with posting pictures of myself online.

You look nice though.:smallsmile:

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 11:44 AM
Oh you didn't have to do that, I'm also very careful with posting pictures of myself online.

You look nice though.:smallsmile:

I don't, but then I'm a boy past the age of fourteen.

I've always thought that shortish, neat hair was much more feminine than long hair.

Nameless
2009-05-25, 11:54 AM
This is one of the most important reasons for getting society comfortable with this reality as soon as possible, so that trans kids don't have to wait until they're completely done with puberty before they can transition. If they can be assessed early enough, they'd be able to start in their teens and develop almost identically along with their same-gendered peers, thus sparing them a potential life of ridicule, discrimination, and increased likelihood of violence.

I have a friend in his early teens (well, a friend of a friend) who took hormone pills to beggin his transition because he basically wasn't happy with being male, although I didn't really get a lot of information about why, I had to ask my friend about most of it. Anyway he started in his early teens, but I'm not sure how she's doing at this moment because I haven't seen or spoken to her in a while. But it appears from what I've seen that in many ways it's a little bit easier to do it while your still going through puberty, especially for once you become an adult.
But I guess it also has itís difficulties, especially when youíre in school.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 11:56 AM
How easy was it for your family/friends to accept it you wanted to be a woman? Was there a moment you had to "come out"?

LXH
2009-05-25, 12:01 PM
:smallsmile:

But back to the topic, my personal, apparently unreliable until more posts come in testimony is that life was easier as a male. Being a white male also in this country probably had a lot to do with it. You just seem to get away with more and be rewarded for less work.

Being female comes with advantages, but not many are professional or financial. Respect is also much harder to come by. It can be big things like, as mentioned previously, having my arguments and life experience dismissed because of my gender, or little things such as going to dinner with a male friend, paying with my debit card which was clearly on my side of the table, then having the server return and give my card to the friend. Or simply leaving the check with the man instead of somewhere in the middle.

I've also been openly leered at in the office by a man who was there to stop by and talk to a friend of his. Each time I walked past him he stopped his conversation and stared me up and down until I was out of view, which was accompanied by laughter from others in the office. Talk about uncomfortable.

My boss' (female) boss (male) will interrupt her, myself, or other women during meetings to ask a lower ranking/skilled man at the table if what she's saying is true. I don't think I've ever seen the inverse of this particular situation happen.

When I bought my new tv, I was told by the guys at Best Buy who loaded it into my car that I should have them come and install it for me. When I said I had it under control, they asked if my husband was going to do it. I'm pretty sure the shape of my genitals doesn't affect my ability to understand which wire goes where, but whatever. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, it's things like that. Of course, I had strange assumptions made about me in the past life, too. Like when discussing our relationship with our parents, two female coworkers agreed I was a typical, emotionally distant son because I did not talk to my mother every day on the phone. Never mind the fact that we had a distant relationship due to my coming out. Chalk it up to that pesky Y chromosome!

In summation, people are dumb. :smalltongue:

Nameless
2009-05-25, 12:08 PM
:smallsmile:

But back to the topic, my personal, apparently unreliable until more posts come in testimony is that life was easier as a male. Being a white male also in this country probably had a lot to do with it. You just seem to get away with more and be rewarded for less work.

Being female comes with advantages, but not many are professional or financial. Respect is also much harder to come by. It can be big things like, as mentioned previously, having my arguments and life experience dismissed because of my gender, or little things such as going to dinner with a male friend, paying with my debit card which was clearly on my side of the table, then having the server return and give my card to the friend. Or simply leaving the check with the man instead of somewhere in the middle.

I've also been openly leered at in the office by a man who was there to stop by and talk to a friend of his. Each time I walked past him he stopped his conversation and stared me up and down until I was out of view, which was accompanied by laughter from others in the office. Talk about uncomfortable.

My boss' (female) boss (male) will interrupt her, myself, or other women during meetings to ask a lower ranking/skilled man at the table if what she's saying is true. I don't think I've ever seen the inverse of this particular situation happen.

When I bought my new tv, I was told by the guys at Best Buy who loaded it into my car that I should have them come and install it for me. When I said I had it under control, they asked if my husband was going to do it. I'm pretty sure the shape of my genitals doesn't affect my ability to understand which wire goes where, but whatever. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, it's things like that. Of course, I had strange assumptions made about me in the past life, too. Like when discussing our relationship with our parents, two female coworkers agreed I was a typical, emotionally distant son because I did not talk to my mother every day on the phone. Never mind the fact that we had a distant relationship due to my coming out. Chalk it up to that pesky Y chromosome!

In summation, people are dumb. :smalltongue:

Does the "DC" in your location part on your profile mean "Washington DC"? Just wondering where about you live, because from what I've noticed, things here are very different around here.
I know I'm not a girl, but I often get mixed for one, and when I decide to play along for the hell of it I don't get treated like that, and when I look at other girls I don't really see too much of that. :smallconfused:

LXH
2009-05-25, 12:10 PM
How easy was it for your family/friends to accept it you wanted to be a woman? Was there a moment you had to "come out"?
Some friends were great, others not so much. Some people will really surprise you. One particular female friend, who I had previously thought to be one of the most progressive, liberal people I knew, had a really hard time with it. She had something of a crush on me and would attempt to convince me not to do it because I was too big or was just confused because I hadn't yet had sex with a man (whatever the hell that meant!).

When that failed, she told our mutual friends behind my back that I was making the entire thing up in order to gain empathy from women and use that as an "in" to take advantage of them sexually. She basically stopped an inch away from calling me a rapist. Needless to say, we don't keep in touch.

Of my family, I only told my mom and brother. My dad and two sisters still don't know. My dad is a bit of a Catholic fundamentalist and has shown extreme hostility towards people who deviate from sexual and gender norms. My brother has been great with it. Mom is a work in progress. She tried very hard for me to quit to save her from the stress of "rocking the boat."

I would say work has been the most difficult. When I finally went full time, I tried very hard to find a job at a place far, far away from any I had worked in previously. But because I work with a security clearance and had one granted by a bureau that isn't compatible with other agencies, I ended up having to go back to a place where I was known. My office was in a different building from where I used to work, but someone for some reason had to stop by and recognized me. He didn't say anything to me, but waited for me to leave before outing me to two coworkers. Afterward, he started coming by with old coworkers of mine and using his badge to gain access to my office and let them take glimpses of me. Then someone came in and yelled my old name out loudly, in front of my entire office, thus outing me to everyone in the office and the bureau.

Before that happened, a coworker had reason to look at my old files and figured out what was going on. Her reaction was to tell some of my other coworkers behind my back so that they don't say something that would offend me. I think that excuse is garbage and she just needed to rationalize her gossip in order to appear professional, but what can I do? When you're trans, everything about you is fair game: medical history, genital status, whatever. Respect goes out the window.

LXH
2009-05-25, 12:11 PM
Does the "DC" in your location part on your profile mean "Washington DC"? Just wondering where about you live, because from what I've noticed, things here are very different around here.
I know I'm not a girl, but I often get mixed for one, and when I decide to play along for the hell of it I don't get treated like that, and when I look at other girls I don't really see too much of that. :smallconfused:
Yep, I'm in the DC area.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 12:16 PM
I would say work has been the most difficult. When I finally went full time, I tried very hard to find a job at a place far, far away from any I had worked in previously. But because I work with a security clearance and had one granted by a bureau that isn't compatible with other agencies, I ended up having to go back to a place where I was known. My office was in a different building from where I used to work, but someone for some reason had to stop by and recognized me. He didn't say anything to me, but waited for me to leave before outing me to two coworkers. Afterward, he started coming by with old coworkers of mine and using his badge to gain access to my office and let them take glimpses of me. Then someone came in and yelled my old name out loudly, in front of my entire office, thus outing me to everyone in the office and the bureau.

Before that happened, a coworker had reason to look at my old files and figured out what was going on. Her reaction was to tell some of my old coworkers behind my back so that they don't say something that would offend me. I think that excuse is garbage and she just needed to rationalize her gossip in order to appear professional, but what can I do? When you're trans, everything about you is fair game: medical history, genital status, whatever. Respect goes out the window.

That's really aweful when that happens. I don't know what I would do in a situation like that. Maybe cry, run away? But at work (or at school) you can't do that. Really aweful how shallow some people can be.

LXH
2009-05-25, 12:21 PM
That's really aweful when that happens. I don't know what I would do in a situation like that. Maybe cry, run away? But at work (or at school) you can't do that. Really aweful how shallow some people can be.
I did both. Even walked out of the office and refused to come back for several days. My company has been trying to find me a new position, but nothing's happened yet.

The worst part is that people don't seem to care about this type of harassment. The government client never stepped in to address the matter and the companies of those doing the harassment only gave what amounted to a slap on the wrist.

The cleared contracting world here is very small, and my personal business is now going to follow me anywhere I go. I am not ashamed of being trans, but I don't like the fact that I'll have to rely on a person's lack of bias when applying for a job. It's already enough to be a female in IT without having to throw in more hurdles.

THAC0
2009-05-25, 12:34 PM
Wow, this thread has taken some twists and turns since I went to bed last night! :smallbiggrin:

@ZeroNumerous


Context. If I feel I am in legitimate life-threatening danger and seriously maim someone in order to survive, then I have not broken any laws and thus it's not my problem.

Only true if the only thing that makes it your problem is law. For me, it's not. I didn't make my comment about "your problem" to assign blame or anything, merely pointed out that gender (any gender) is not a method to absolve oneself of blame or caring.



Well then, now that you mention that, I usually get looks when I get my Martha Stewart on at Target. Two men can't have a conversation about a very "kitschy" looking microwave without getting the accusing look. I like women..can't I also like cool kitchen appliances?

Let's take this a little deeper, as well as my example about the cars.

A woman in an autoshop is treated as less intelligent as a man. However, if she proves herself to be competent in this area, then this is regarded as a good thing.

A man shopping for kitchen appliances is given strange looks - not because he's assumed to be stupid, but because he is acting like a woman.

Why is it socially acceptable for a woman to be good at traditionally male things and not socially acceptable for a man to be good a traditionally female occupations (though I might add that the world of professional chefs is male-dominated)?

So on the surface, you might be being discriminated against for choosing to participate in "feminine" activities, but this seems to me to be indicative of a deeper underlying social concept about women that isn't at all flattering.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 12:54 PM
The cleared contracting world here is very small, and my personal business is now going to follow me anywhere I go. I am not ashamed of being trans, but I don't like the fact that I'll have to rely on a person's lack of bias when applying for a job. It's already enough to be a female in IT without having to throw in more hurdles.

Society is stupid like that sometimes and being part of aminority group hurts sometimes because people are naive and want to hurt you, just because you are different. I sometimes experience the same thing from being vegan. People make stereo types and are forced to make jokes and everone thinks they are being original and don't understand you have heard them already a million times and why you find some of them insulting.

This might be too personal, I just don't know how this really works, but do you need keep taking medication to stay looking like a woman?

LXH
2009-05-25, 01:05 PM
Society is stupid like that sometimes and being part of aminority group hurts sometimes because people are naive and want to hurt you, just because you are different. I sometimes experience the same thing from being vegan. People make stereo types and are forced to make jokes and everone thinks they are being original and don't understand you have heard them already a million times and why you find some of them insulting.

This might be too personal, I just don't know how this really works, but do you need keep taking medication to stay looking like a woman?
I never mind questions provided they aren't blatantly disrespectful. Pre-op you will typically take androgen blockers as well as estrogen. Post, only the latter is needed, and in much smaller doses.

FtMs will just take testosterone before and after.

We live the life of the acceptable target (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableLifestyleTargets). :smallamused:

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 01:08 PM
I never mind questions provided they aren't blatantly disrespectful. Pre-op you will typically take androgen blockers as well as estrogen. Post, only the latter is needed, and in much smaller doses.

FtMs will just take testosterone before and after.

We live the life of the acceptable target (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableLifestyleTargets). :smallamused:

I see. Thank for answering.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 01:09 PM
A more important question I asked before was "how do they pee?". Got a fairly detailed answer.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 01:12 PM
The main problem I would personally have with changing sex...

You can no more change your sex than you can change your eye color. You can make it look different, but we're far from being able to change people's sexes.

((Meanwhile, I should keep looking at that one - there may be something in that field of research.))

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 01:14 PM
You can no more change your sex than you can change your eye color.

That reminds me of reading something about the first eye tattoo recently. That was a very scary article.

GoC
2009-05-25, 02:15 PM
Yes, and I get a feel for your character being just as naturally argumentive as mine!
:smallbiggrin:

To many debates and blessedly few discussion-killing agreements!
I believe argumentation sharpens the mind.:smallamused:


Stripping a person of their pronouns is the same as attacking their identity, and I don't know if it's accurate to say on the one hand that you respect trans people while on the other you're insisting you know better when it comes to what gender each person is.
The thing is I don't think what pronoun you have should be an important part of your identity. If it is then it might be wise to start considering why. Surely there are more interesting and unique things about you then "I'm a guy/girl"*?:smallconfused:

Also, debates over semantics are pointless.

* Or guy->girl in your case.:smallbiggrin:


I'd say that you should let people decide for themselves what gender they want to be and that you should respect that
What does the bolded part mean?


The difference is, unlike other people that pretend that they consider trans-genders as their new sex even in their thoughts, I'm actually admitting and saying how I actually feel about it.
What does it mean to consider someone male or female? Is it about how you expect them to act? How you expect them to look? Which pronoun you use in your thought-stream? To think that their sex at birth was X?
The first is very sexist. The second goes against your argument when applied to transgendered. The third is... meh. The fourth is irrelevant to anything.


The feminine are assumed not to hit first. The androgyne believe that nobody should be hit. What group, then, believes that hitting first is a privilege being withheld from them? What is the classic metaphor for removing someone from that group (which, also, is insufficient to push them into a new one)?
I could kiss you for this quote!:smallbiggrin:


In summation, people are dumb. :smalltongue:
No, people have expectations. And these were usually correct (or they wouldn't have them).
20 or so years ago (when the TV men were young kids): Most of the time the guy payed and generally it was the men who took it upon themselves to study electrical things.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 02:20 PM
What does the bolded part mean?

It means, as I see it, that you should just accept what that person wants to be and accept that as what he/she is and not question or oppose it as it means much more to them than it can possibly mean to someone else.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 02:29 PM
You can no more change your sex than you can change your eye color. You can make it look different, but we're far from being able to change people's sexes.

((Meanwhile, I should keep looking at that one - there may be something in that field of research.))

It's true, you can't properly change the sexes. We need to find a way to keep genitals on ice (and attached vital organs, like wombs) so transsexuals going in different directions can simply swap them over and have fully functioning business.

LXH
2009-05-25, 02:35 PM
The thing is I don't think what pronoun you have should be an important part of your identity. If it is then it might be wise to start considering why. Surely there are more interesting and unique things about you then "I'm a guy/girl"*?

Also, debates over semantics are pointless.

* Or guy-girl in your case.

There are many things that are much more interesting and unique about me. But this is one of the few that I've had to swim against an entire societal tide to achieve, and I'm not about to lose that footing because someone else doesn't think it's so important when they call me a man. It doesn't have to be my entire identity to be a part of it, and considering how, for better or worse, so many of our interactions as a species in every day living are based on our gender/sex, you can probably see why such things would matter to me.

It's also one of the things most taken for granted in day-to-day living, and 99.9% of people won't ever have to deal with something basic like their gender being challenged by random strangers.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to you. It matters to me, and since we're dealing with me, the respectful thing to do is to be mindful of that. That's 101 level human interaction and empathy.


No, people have expectations. And these were usually correct (or they wouldn't have them).
20 or so years ago (when the TV men were young kids): Most of the time the guy payed and generally it was the men who took it upon themselves to study electrical things.
I wasn't treating people to dinner twenty years ago. I was seven twenty years ago. And the only reason things changed at all is because people spoke up about those types of inequities and assumptions.

And did you seriously just call me a "guy-girl?"

LXH
2009-05-25, 02:41 PM
I'd also like to point out that not all assumptions that are prevalent in society at any one time are due to having been true at some point. It used to be assumed by the majority that black people were too stupid to vote or to control their own destiny. Hell, ten years after Loving v. Virginia, 94% of Americans polled were still against interracial marriage.

The reason men dominated certain fields and continue to do so is because, for quite a few centuries, the belief in the intellectual inferiority of women has been perpetuated by the vast majority of civilizations. Those perceptions were (are!) due to misinformation and not an effect of the norm at that time.

GoC
2009-05-25, 02:44 PM
There are many things that are much more interesting and unique about me. But this is one of the few that I've had to swim against an entire societal tide to achieve, and I'm not about to lose that footing because someone else doesn't think it's so important when they call me a man. It doesn't have to be my entire identity to be a part of it, and considering how, for better or worse, so many of our interactions as a species in every day living are based on our gender/sex, you can probably see why such things would matter to me.
You fought through hell merely so you could have the letter "s" in front on your pronoun?:smallconfused:
Wasn't it more about what the "s" represents?


It's also one of the things most taken for granted in day-to-day living, and 99.9% of people won't ever have to deal with something basic like their gender being challenged by random strangers.
This is due to the stupid culture that classifies activities as male and female. If this distinction did'n't exist then there would be no gender and it wouldn't be challenged!
Let's kill two birds with one stone!
Onwards to equality!:cool::determined:


It doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to you. It matters to me, and since we're dealing with me, the respectful thing to do is to be mindful of that. That's 101 level human interaction and empathy.
You are assuming I have empathy towards you infernal demons!
Sent by the devil to lead us astray from the lord god and from the sanctity of marriage!:smalltongue:

Note: The above is parody and in no way reflects upon any real world beliefs.


I wasn't treating people to dinner twenty years ago. I was seven twenty years ago. And the only reason things changed at all is because people spoke up about those types of inequities and assumptions.
Of course, I wasn't criticizing you for bringing attention to it. Merely pointing out that they're not necessarily stupid. Ok, maybe they are a bit slow... but stubborness is part of human nature.

DamnedIrishman: Care to take apart my ideal society in that thread?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-25, 02:47 PM
Hell, ten years after Loving v. Virginia, 94% of Americans polled were still against interracial marriage.

Which is ridiculous because, let's face it, half-cast people are hawt.

Also, he called you a guy-> girl, not a guy-girl. The important difference being the first imples you used to be a guy and are now a girl, whereas the second implies some form of androgyne.


EDIT: @GoC YOU POSTED?! Woohooo...

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 02:49 PM
You can no more change your sex than you can change your eye color. You can make it look different, but we're far from being able to change people's sexes.

If I change the pigmentation of my iris then I change the color of my eye, yes? The one natural way would be becoming blind and/or wearing blinders at all times. My iris will atrophy to white due to disuse. I have changed my eye color, doesn't that make your allusion a little weak?


I'd say that you should let people decide for themselves what gender they want to be and that you should respect that

I've always been weirded out by that assumption. The words I use to qualify an individual is irrelevant compared to level of response. If I qualify someone as a "dude" despite being of obvious female sex then is it disrespecting them? No, because there's no inherent meaning in the word but the individual places meaning upon it. It's not my fault they feel disrespected, it's their choice to feel disrespected. The world would be so much easier if people weren't emotional rhinos guided by the midget of logic.

LXH
2009-05-25, 02:52 PM
Which is ridiculous because, let's face it, half-cast people are hawt.

Also, he called you a guy-> girl, not a guy-girl. The important difference being the first imples you used to be a guy and are now a girl, whereas the second implies some form of androgyne.


EDIT: @GoC YOU POSTED?! Woohooo...
I guess it was edited. What came out from hitting the quote button was "guy-girl." Either that or the > symbol doesn't translate.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-25, 02:54 PM
Would you feel society treats men/boys different from women/girls? I'm not just talking about sexism, but also about people's general view towards individuals of certain gender.

I have to do a school paper on something like this and I would just like some introductory views of different people on this before I start doing my research.

I think you should define society as it is made up of many social cliques each with its own specific idea. Homosexuality and transgender individuals will most definitely be viewed as different amongst the conservative and the liberal.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 02:56 PM
I've always been weirded out by that assumption. The words I use to qualify an individual is irrelevant compared to level of response. If I qualify someone as a "dude" despite being of obvious female sex then is it disrespecting them? No, because there's no inherent meaning in the word but the individual places meaning upon it. It's not my fault they feel disrespected, it's their choice to feel disrespected. The world would be so much easier if people weren't emotional rhinos guided by the midget of logic.

The word choice has a strange meaning here. You can't consciously chooseto find something offending, ei you do or you don't. However it is a personal experience and some people find things more offending then others.

GoC
2009-05-25, 02:57 PM
I guess it was edited. What came out from hitting the quote button was "guy-girl." Either that or the > symbol doesn't translate.

It was edited when I noticed the mistake.

LXH
2009-05-25, 03:01 PM
You fought through hell merely so you could have the letter "s" in front on your pronoun?:smallconfused:
Wasn't it more about what the "s" represents?
It was about achieving comfort in my life, and I can hardly be comfortable with people around me who would constantly remind and associate me with a past that was full of pain and hardship.



This is due to the stupid culture that classifies activities as male and female. If this distinction did'n't exist then there would be no gender and it wouldn't be challenged!
Let's kill two birds with one stone!
Onwards to equality!:cool::determined:
I'm not talking about riding the bus in Iran. I'm talking about basic level interactions between males and females. How many men are going to want to talk to me if I've got people walking around referring to me as "he" because it "doesn't matter?"

I also find it a bit suspect that all the "it doesn't really matter!" arguments only come out when it's a trans person who's the subject. You're probably not about to start randomly referring to female friends and family members as "he" in the name of progress.



You are assuming I have empathy towards you infernal demons!
Sent by the devil to lead us astray from the lord god and from the sanctity of marriage!
Dad?!



Of course, I wasn't criticizing you for bringing attention to it. Merely pointing out that they're not necessarily stupid. Ok, maybe they are a bit slow... but stubborness is part of human nature.
I was sort of hoping the :smalltongue: would have conveyed the levity in what I was saying.

DarthArminius
2009-05-25, 03:01 PM
Much of my life people treat me like I'm retarded because I have a wang and a set of hush puppies.

Ichneumon
2009-05-25, 03:08 PM
It was about achieving comfort in my life, and I can hardly be comfortable with people around me who would constantly remind and associate me with a past that was full of pain and hardship.

Did you always know you were a woman/girl or did it develop like that and did you found it becoming more and more and isse? I can immagine it to be hard, either way, but you say you changed in your 20's so did you hide it very long or not? You're heterosexual, right, at least I think I can conclude from your posts that you are attracted to men, so were you always attracted to them or did that change?:smallsmile:


I also find it a bit suspect that all the "it doesn't really matter!" arguments only come out when it's a trans person who's the subject. You're probably not about to start randomly referring to female friends and family members as "he" in the name of progress.

That's a very good point indeed and indeed true.

LXH
2009-05-25, 03:15 PM
Did you always know you were a woman/girl or did it develop like that and did you found it becoming more and more and isse? I can immagine it to be hard, either way, but you say you changed in your 20's so did you hide it very long or not? You're heterosexual, right, at least I think I can conclude from your posts that you are attracted to men, so were you always attracted to them or did that change?:smallsmile:
I was aware of being different from the very young years (upwards of four). I honestly didn't know what it was but just that I didn't seem to identify with men the way I was expected to. Figured it out around age ten and spent the next decade overcompensating in order to either outgrow it or fool people into thinking I was normal.

I had a few strained relationships with women but I never felt all that attracted to them. I was very freaked out about my attraction to men due to the religious upbringing and did my best to stifle those thoughts for many years. I think my orientation has always been constant, but that I didn't allow myself to be comfortable with it until I was living full time.

My first date with a guy felt all sorts of right. It was one of those "this is what it's supposed to be like?! No wonder people like living!" king of moments. I didn't even end up liking him all that much. Just the interactions felt like a huge piece of the puzzle had finally settled into place.

GoC
2009-05-25, 03:17 PM
It was about achieving comfort in my life, and I can hardly be comfortable with people around me who would constantly remind and associate me with a past that was full of pain and hardship.
Hmm...
You have an excellent point there. Conceded.
But I've just finished answering all the other points you raised and it would be a shame to waste these arguments so I'll post them anyway:


I'm not talking about riding the bus in Iran. I'm talking about basic level interactions between males and females. How many men are going to want to talk to me if I've got people walking around referring to me as "he" because it "doesn't matter?"
Now here's a difficult question. Most men would dislike sleeping with a transexual. I'd say that any who would be fine sleeping with you or marrying you would be fine with the "he" bit.
If you mean just general talking then the only ones who will be affected are the bigots and really, who wants to talk to them?:smalltongue:


I also find it a bit suspect that all the "it doesn't really matter!" arguments only come out when it's a trans person who's the subject. You're probably not about to start randomly referring to female friends and family members as "he" in the name of progress.
Indeed I wouldn't, nor would I call you a "he"! But if I did I would go :smallconfused: if they got offended at it.
Then again... to the best of my knowledge I've never got offended at anything and honestly don't understand the emotion.:smallsigh:


I was sort of hoping the :smalltongue: would have conveyed the levity in what I was saying.
D'oh!
:facepalm:

kpenguin
2009-05-25, 03:22 PM
The world would be so much easier if people weren't emotional rhinos guided by the midget of logic.

You mean bear (http://www.drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=48&issue=3).

LXH
2009-05-25, 03:24 PM
Now here's a difficult question. Most men would dislike sleeping with a transexual. I'd say that any who would be fine sleeping with you or marrying you would be fine with the "he" bit.
If you mean just general talking then the only ones who will be affected are the bigots and really, who wants to talk to them?
I figured this would be the reply, being the logical conclusion. From talking to people about this issue, though, I've come to realize that quite a few men would give it more consideration if they got to know the person first. It's one thing not to approach a stranger if you know something about them, but if you already like someone, you're going to be a little more amenable to dealing with certain circumstances, depending on the character of the individual.