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olelia
2009-05-23, 06:52 PM
So..wow...cussing time :smalleek:

Rosnet
2009-05-23, 06:52 PM
Epic. Go Parson.

tribble
2009-05-23, 06:52 PM
crowning moment.

reignofevil
2009-05-23, 06:53 PM
Holy...
****?!?!?

DarthArminius
2009-05-23, 06:55 PM
Hmmmmmm. Erfworld lost its power for a little bit.

Darkfalle
2009-05-23, 06:55 PM
::Applauds::

Well done Rob and Jamie... well done.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-23, 06:57 PM
And we still don't get to cuss as board members?

Man, that is such a letdown.

Tyrael
2009-05-23, 06:58 PM
Holy boop. I wasn't expecting that.

WarriorTribble
2009-05-23, 06:58 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have officially hit the upper limits of PG-13. Guess there a joke in there since Erf is moving, and therefore can't hit the R mark with another well timed... fudge.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-23, 06:59 PM
Wow.

That was a very powerful use of the word ****.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 07:03 PM
Applause indeed.

This clinches it. I'm buying it when it hits print.

Kornaki
2009-05-23, 07:05 PM
He won't keep cursing; as long as he knows it's in his power he'll probably settle for saying boop.

The Giant
2009-05-23, 07:05 PM
And we still don't get to cuss as board members?

Man, that is such a letdown.

The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

gamerboy6000
2009-05-23, 07:05 PM
Hmm... no boop. I guess he got his Christmas gift.

elrod13
2009-05-23, 07:05 PM
Bravo!

The value of the obsenity is less than the meaning of the soliloquy. The part about not being a gamepeice; but being a player: That is what separates the PCs from the NPCs. :smallsmile:

Moriarty
2009-05-23, 07:06 PM
whoa.

That was unexpected.

On second thought, I hope Parson isn't going to abuse his newfound cussing powers, I'd miss the *boop*

Justyn
2009-05-23, 07:07 PM
I think that there is definately some deeper meaning behind why Parson was able to drop an F-bomb like that... and this really blind-sided me.

This is how to effectively swear.


The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Is this a challenge Mr. Burlew? :smallamused: Either way, your post there hit the nail on the head: you were able to say what I wanted to without me knowing exactly how to word it properly, thanks Rich.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-23, 07:07 PM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Didn't expect that.
But seriously, /agree.

Erfworld is awesome, and I've been following it from the begining.
Much like I buy the Giant's books, I'm more than likely going to be mkaing the purchase.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 07:08 PM
Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Promise? :smallamused:

It's amazing what silly little things can motivate a shiftless person to action.

cnsvnc
2009-05-23, 07:10 PM
All I can say is WOAH! Way to go man! Show the Erf who's the player!

The Giant
2009-05-23, 07:10 PM
Promise? :smallamused:

No. :smalltongue:.........

Dogmantra
2009-05-23, 07:11 PM
Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.
Dammit Rich, why do you have to hog all the awesome?

Actually on topic:
Wow. I'm not too sure what actually has been going on in Erfworld (I'm going to have to have another archive binge), but just reading this one strip shows that there's so much more than meets the eye.
Also: I think that Parson deserves the Rory for the most gratuitous use of the word "****" in a comic.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-23, 07:13 PM
I was thinking, and the curse, while being a perfect end to Parson's rage against the heavens universe, reminded me of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0154.html) page.

To be specific, Panel seven.
"He breaks things, Rules, ideas, people."

Lukmar
2009-05-23, 07:13 PM
The eyestones on the handle are glowing and it appears that magic is being activated/released as the sword sinks into the lava. Is that the 'ruthlessness', 'combat' and 'leadership' gone?

Or has Parson matured/grown to the point where he no longer has need of the sword to act as a focus for these qualities, as they have now been "awakened" in him? Perhaps, as he continues his development (or as a necessary part of it) he'll be able to keep breaking more of the shackles imposed by Erfworld.

Mortizal
2009-05-23, 07:15 PM
Epic. Very well done!

tribble
2009-05-23, 07:18 PM
So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

quoted for funny.

Doran
2009-05-23, 07:21 PM
An excellent final!
This is foreshadowing some interesting themes in Book 2.

I would recommend updating with one last faux page, with the erfworld.com url in it, as the newspot with it in it will get pushed down eventually, so future readers know where to go.

EDIT: Wow, just caught the significance of the page layout.

This last page, like the volcano linkup page one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0148.html), is 'breaking' the usual layout.

Jimor
2009-05-23, 07:21 PM
:::Applause:::

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-23, 07:23 PM
Woot! Awsome! Throw off those shackles of oppression...

You'll need them to place on others soon.

slurpz
2009-05-23, 07:24 PM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

One of my favorite posts on the board, ever.

That was almost exactly how I thought of the single curse.

Jeivar
2009-05-23, 07:29 PM
Very good finish.

. . . how long till book two?

Ya Ta Hey!
2009-05-23, 07:31 PM
I find Earth to be much less forthcoming when I demand changes of it. Seriously, 1.6x10^-19? Isn't that a bit excessive?

Rutskarn
2009-05-23, 07:32 PM
Hoo-ooo boy.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-23, 07:39 PM
Considering anything I write semi-professionally does not have a single swear word (unless you count "damn" as a swear word), I was surprised to be taken seriously.

Hopefully it does not repeat itself in the future, y'know. Would kind of take away the strength of the moment away.

...I just realized I must add another URL to my daily comics visit. That blows, man.

Tubal-Cain
2009-05-23, 07:39 PM
Suddenly, I am much less worried about Stanley possibly being able to disband Parson.

T-O-E
2009-05-23, 07:41 PM
Wow.

Most powerful utterance of a curse word in the history of webcomics, anyone?

Roderick_BR
2009-05-23, 07:42 PM
First time posting here. I must say this story was a very interesting one, with Parson's trying to figure out what's going on, and using meta-knowledge to overcome his problems.
And the ending, with him just simply giving the finger to that world, was awesome. I'll be checking the new site.

Xenon
2009-05-23, 07:47 PM
Everything melts in lava!

looks like parson is finally free of a great many restrictions. not just the censorship- probably a lot of other rules of the realm as well. a Player.... well this will be interesting.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-23, 07:48 PM
Wow.

Most powerful utterance of a curse word in the history of webcomics, anyone?

Well, there was Black Mage's one-strip bomb in 8-Bit Theater. Although that was powerful in terms of the webcomic itself, which refrained from using the word for hundreds of strips and did it when Black Mage lost the rulership of Hell.

Then it used it a second time and it kind of made the first lose impact.

Clamps
2009-05-23, 07:56 PM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Personally, I just like the idea that this is a statement of individuality so powerful no one's even allowed to repeat it.

WarriorTribble
2009-05-23, 07:57 PM
Very good finish.

. . . how long till book two?All the info you seek is here (http://www.erfworld.com/page/5/).

Xorbon
2009-05-23, 08:03 PM
Nice way to end the book. Now that Erfworld is moving, I guess I'll have to add another bookmark to my favorites list. : sigh :

:smallwink:

Scylfing
2009-05-23, 08:04 PM
Just posting to say congrats to Rob and Jamie on completing this first major milestone, and a well-made completion at that. Even though I've vocally disagreed with some of your artistic decisions in the past (not like it matters what a stranger on the internet says about anyone's work) I and I think most everyone on this board will commend you on a job well done.

Best wishes for Erfworld.com, for the dead tree version of Book 1, and for a successful Book 2 and beyond. :smallsmile:

Arkaim
2009-05-23, 08:06 PM
That was an awesome ending.

Gunslinger47
2009-05-23, 08:09 PM
Breaking my two-year silence to say:

Congratulations.

msb
2009-05-23, 08:11 PM
*Great* ending. I really love this story. I cannot express how satisfying it is to have completion to a story arc I've been following for a couple years, and have it be actually really good. Rare, precious stuff. THANKS and CONGRATULATIONS to the authors. Looking forward to buying the book with my tool credits.

Blackjackg
2009-05-23, 08:12 PM
...I liked that sword...

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 08:14 PM
The sword... huh. Maybe not such a good idea.

Rich: That was pretty much the exact, correct thing to say.

I'm going to miss having two stellar comics on this site; still, forward and onward!

toasty
2009-05-23, 08:21 PM
Epic ending. I'll buy the book once its out.

Aerysil
2009-05-23, 08:22 PM
holy boop.

The Giant
2009-05-23, 08:28 PM
I would recommend updating with one last faux page, with the erfworld.com url in it, as the newspot with it in it will get pushed down eventually, so future readers know where to go.

Yeah, this is already the plan. There should be a "The End" page sometime next week or so, depending on when the guys finish making it.

Calmness
2009-05-23, 08:29 PM
That was epic.

*Claps*

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 08:34 PM
No. :smalltongue:.........

Tease. :smallannoyed:

Hell Puppi
2009-05-23, 08:35 PM
Awesome guys :smallbiggrin:

I'm really glad you let us go on this journey with you, and will most definitely pick up book one when it's out.


Mr. Burlew, any idea on who will be trying to fill Erf's rather large shoes?

The Giant
2009-05-23, 08:37 PM
Mr. Burlew, any idea on who will be trying to fill Erf's rather large shoes?

No plans at this time. Right now, I'm content to let Erfworld stand completed for a good while before considering what (if anything) will be added to the site.

Hell Puppi
2009-05-23, 08:41 PM
Understood. Thank you for the response :smallsmile:

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-23, 08:43 PM
I really have got to say that it was a nice pick. It's going to be a little sad not having the two strips on the same site anymore.

Half_Moon
2009-05-23, 08:46 PM
That was a great ending to Book 1. For a second I almost thought he was about to kill himself there to see if he gets out of this "dream".

Also, this final page raises the questions about a universe which censors swearing but allows for wholesale slaughter. This statement seemed to have silenced those detractors from the story who objected to the prevalence of violence in the comic during the battles.

What this says about the nature and Rating of the story, I don't know but it is a fun one and I don't intend to stop reading it.

Sir_Ophiuchus
2009-05-23, 08:49 PM
I started applauding at my computer screen.

What an amazing scene; reminded me of "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

The Dark Fiddler
2009-05-23, 08:52 PM
Hmm... no boop. I guess he got his Christmas gift.

It came early too, didn't it? Still say that if the censor didn't exist, he could have just dropped a bunch of f-bombs and defeated Ansom.

I've used this joke thrice now though, time to hang it up.

Undead Prince
2009-05-23, 08:56 PM
Congratulations on a book well done.

Although, seeing how wonderful is evil Wanda, I was pained to see the sword of ruthlessness go. Such great potential... squandered. Just like that other artifact. You know, the One Ring.

Good job, and looking forward to Book 2!

Bookkeeper@Arms
2009-05-23, 09:00 PM
So Erfworld forced Parson to do what Earth could not - take control of his own destiny. Impressive. And what will he do with his newfound ability to defy natural law?

Hmmm ... dead raising, lake of fire, raging against the gods ...

Parson the Anti-Titan?

MadScientistMat
2009-05-23, 09:20 PM
Also: I think that Parson deserves the Rory for the most gratuitous use of the word "****" in a comic.

If anything, I'd say that may have been the least gratuitous such use in a comic I've ever seen. Very well done ending there. (I never thought an f-you could be such a powerful final word of a storyline.)

Chilliwack
2009-05-23, 09:37 PM
One of my favorite posts on the board, ever.

That was almost exactly how I thought of the single curse.

Yes yes agreed

I've just decided to re-read Erfworld. DEFINITELY buying when it hits print.

Boneyard
2009-05-23, 09:37 PM
Well done. Rob and Jaime, you guys have done a great job. I eagerly await the next chapter.

I also can't wait to see who will be the next to stand on the shoulder of the Giant.

aka Argent
2009-05-23, 09:39 PM
Parson vs Charlie I expected for the next book. Parson vs The World? Wasn't on my radar.

Excellent Ending.

Doshi
2009-05-23, 09:56 PM
I'd just like to thank, and congratulate, the authors. Reading Erfworld 1 has been a brilliant, fascinating journey. I'm very much looking forward to Chapter 2.

Jamin
2009-05-23, 10:00 PM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 10:07 PM
It really was a stellar first go; and from what I understand picked up very good recognition for a nascent webcomic when it was younger.

I doubt we're going to have quite as much fun with the next comic hosted here, but I'll keep an open mind.

Glyde
2009-05-23, 10:08 PM
Brilliant. Can't wait for book two.

Gamebird
2009-05-23, 10:08 PM
Ah, darn. I was hoping to see the look on Stanley's face when he got back and saw... everything that was wrought in his name.

But it was a great story and I look forward to reading more of it. I admit, I've been won over. Some time ago.

I was surprised Parson was able to get a curse word out. It was a good illustration for how he was able to wrench his status from piece to player.

Justyn
2009-05-23, 10:09 PM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

Did you hear that? That was the sound of the point going right over your head.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-23, 10:10 PM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

You're missing the point.
The use of the word **** is signifcant as each and every other time Parson cursed, we were greeted with a merry little 'boop'. An affect of the universe our Protoganoist found himself stuck in. Aftewr his long and harrowing trial and battle, he has a conversation with the universe there, and devlops a will strong enough to activly break the rules.

It is possible to use vulgarity in an artistic manner, you know.

I don't see it as an attempt at Dark and Edgy, but rather just that.
Art.

linkhyrule5
2009-05-23, 10:11 PM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy


...

...

It's a real shame flaming is forbidden. A real shame.

I think you have entirely missed the *point* of Erfworld. It IS dark and edgy, if you don't like it DON'T READ. And the point of the word is to demonstrate Parson finally breaking free.

Forgotten2
2009-05-23, 10:13 PM
It appears the next pages will not come until fall. :smallfrown:

But we do have mini updates during the summer :smile:

CDRrules
2009-05-23, 10:14 PM
I had to resurrect this old forum account to say thank you to the authors of Erfworld for this fantastic conclusion to a truly excellent webcomic. I hope that your Book 2 brings greater success.

Opal Tide
2009-05-23, 10:15 PM
Great ending to a great webcomic (soon to be book hopefully).

I'm really looking forward to it in print with all the extras.

I wonder how many other rules Parson may be able to break now. Also, I wonder why he can break those rules now.

Anyway, looking forward to the updates and the next story line!

Lunaya
2009-05-23, 10:19 PM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

XD Brilliant. In other words Rose, you're not Parson Gotti. :smallwink:

Tanaar
2009-05-23, 10:19 PM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

1) It is cool and funny when used appropriately, as on page 150. It is only lame when used casually and excessively, as is probably 99% of the modern usage.

2) Erfworld is dark and edgy, and brilliant in the execution of this motif. Your complaint would only really be valid if it Rob and Jamie tried and failed.

3) Lighten up. :smallsmile:

Azukar
2009-05-23, 10:34 PM
Hmm, I guess reading this strip in context makes it more awesome than in isolation...

Ellye
2009-05-23, 10:36 PM
Congratulations.
Great ending to a great book. Best wishes for Book 2. :)

Pieces
2009-05-23, 10:39 PM
Congratulations, Rob and Jamie, on an amazing book.

While I enjoy many comics (and webcomics), Erfworld is something special. Really quite brilliantly conceived and drawn. Thank you for sharing this achievement with us.

Diolki800
2009-05-23, 10:42 PM
.... Wow...
I just.... Wow.
I had to post on this just how Awesome I thought this was.
Good luck to Erfworld on your new site. I will be watching.:smile:

Also, Giant said it best. Well done!

DanReiv
2009-05-23, 10:46 PM
Best luck with book 2.

erfworld.com is now bookmarked. I'll see you soon. :smallsmile:

shadowdemon_lord
2009-05-23, 10:53 PM
Well, not sure I've ever joined the masses to just post how awesome a comic was, especially for one as in depth as Erfworld, but here I go.

That was an extremely satisfying, even brilliant ending to Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Knob. I applaud the authors for a job well done, and I eagerly (for again the first time ever) await the publishing of the book so I may purchase a copy. This book has been possibly the best most well thought out webcomic I've ever seen, and without a doubt featured the best illustrations. In short: That was awesome.

ss49
2009-05-23, 10:55 PM
How did he say that?

I took the sword's eyes glowing as the sword being pissed. The sparklies may be the swordy magic dissipating- or moving on.

ishnar
2009-05-23, 11:07 PM
Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

You have it backwards. It's not a cute, happy world pretending to play war; It's a world dedicated to war with a superficial veneer of cute.

If the Nazi uniform was a pink sailor suit and they ended every sentence with "pyon!" as in "Heil Hitler pyon!" "I do not see why man should not be as cruel as nature pyon!" and the standard issue for German soldiers was a Hello kitty (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/17/hello-kitty-ar-15-assault-rifle-makes-you-wish-it-was-photoshopp/) assault rifles, and all the tanks were painted baby blue had a pretty bow tied to the barrel--would the Nazi's have been accused of "trying to be dark and edgy?" pyon!

It doesn't have to be Nazi's. Do this to any army and it doesn't change the fact that making something cute doesn't change the nature of the deeds.

Often Normal
2009-05-23, 11:22 PM
Well done and thanks for the story.

Aquillion
2009-05-23, 11:23 PM
So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once....does that mean you've earned four-and-one-third epic cuss words you have stored up for a rainy day? :smallbiggrin:

Rollory
2009-05-23, 11:27 PM
The one point made in this thread so far that I agree with is that Erfworld can do what Earth couldn't; get Parson to take control of his environment. If the overall arc had had some visible focus on that rather than this last-minute swerve into guilt trips it might've been far more interesting.

Other than that, blah. This comic has been trying too hard and not going anywhere worthwhile.

The whole guilt trip thing is particularly untenable. It's a game world. The people in it exist (pop) for the purpose of fighting and dying. There can't possibly be any guilt involved in making that happen and doing it well. Actually it's downright crazy to suggest otherwise - and I still don't believe a dedicated gamer, put in that situation, would have the guilt reaction.

Anyway I'll get out of the echo chamber and let you all get on with the praising now.

ShiningTed
2009-05-23, 11:33 PM
...does that mean you've earned four-and-one-third epic cuss words you have stored up for a rainy day?He could have used those 4 words for V.

Great work Rob and Jamie, a worthy ending.

Regarding that word: reminds me of Zelazny's single use of it in his 10-book Amber series. Swearing is hinted at, half-shown, suggested, but when it suddenly appears, you know its for a good reason. Very well done. (And an unexpected twist for the direction of the next story with Parson throwing his sword away).

Arkaim
2009-05-23, 11:38 PM
The one point made in this thread so far that I agree with is that Erfworld can do what Earth couldn't; get Parson to take control of his environment. If the overall arc had had some visible focus on that rather than this last-minute swerve into guilt trips it might've been far more interesting.

Other than that, blah. This comic has been trying too hard and not going anywhere worthwhile.

The whole guilt trip thing is particularly untenable. It's a game world. The people in it exist (pop) for the purpose of fighting and dying. There can't possibly be any guilt involved in making that happen and doing it well. Actually it's downright crazy to suggest otherwise - and I still don't believe a dedicated gamer, put in that situation, would have the guilt reaction.

Anyway I'll get out of the echo chamber and let you all get on with the praising now.
Hmm. But, is it a guilt trip? I know that Parson recognizing the erfworlder's as real people is part of the dynamics, however, it is really focused on "Erfworld" controlling Parson. Like a game piece. People have the last say on whatever they do on Earth. When you are in Erfworld though, you do what Erfworld tells you to do else you get kicked out. Or,in other terms, you die. There is no other option. What I believe Parson is doing here is taking that final control on whatever actions he makes. That's what it means to be a player.

So, can Parson swear whenever he feels like it now? Could he directly disobey an order to remain silent without disbanding? It remains to be seen. To say this is nothing but a guilt trip is not fully appreciating what is happening. In essence, this is Parson's struggle against the Erfworld universe. That he is no instrument of fate that must play his part. This was the real battle. And he won.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-24, 12:02 AM
Ladies and Gentlebeings, I think we have an excellent example of the beast known as the Precision F-Strike (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParentheticalSwearing), especially loaded as this is literally a world where one can't swear,(at least English swears anyway), so there must mean something important.
But what?
Bravo Messers Balder and Naguchi, bravo.:smallamused:
On another note, I caught myself using boop as a mild, but seriously indented, expletive inside my head. Has anyone one done that yet, or do I need to get out more?

Lance
2009-05-24, 12:15 AM
Wow.. Thank you both for a marvelous and beautiful story. I especially love the ending that illustrates just how powerful words can be if used correctly. Best of luck on getting your book published. You can be assured you have one more person in me who is eager to purchase it when it comes out.

factotum
2009-05-24, 12:26 AM
Stone. Cold. Classic. Brilliantly done, Rob and Jamie, and you can add me to the list of people who'll buy the book when it comes out, shipping costs to the UK be damned!

lord of kobolds
2009-05-24, 12:30 AM
HOORAY, PROFANITY!!!!

I personally think that the strip sould have been improved if Parson had said "playa":smalltongue:

Seriously, that was an amazing strip. Great use of symbolism, truly gripping, a masterpiece.

Tubal-Cain
2009-05-24, 12:32 AM
The whole guilt trip thing is particularly untenable. It's a game world. The people in it exist (pop) for the purpose of fighting and dying. There can't possibly be any guilt involved in making that happen and doing it well.

You don't usually get to know your units in games. Wargaming has glossed over all the more unpleasant aspects of real warfare. Like Bogroll's death. He wasn't just a generic 'unit' to Parson.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-24, 12:42 AM
I am extremely difficult to satisfy with endings. Extremely.

I have been disappointed universally with Lord of the Rings, Hitch Hikers Guide, which in turn are some of my favourite books. So don't take this too personally.

I do really like what you've done with this. I like the direction you've taken it in. I just really dislike endings that aren't endings. This, if anything, is about 40 pages before the ending. :P

This is the main reason I don't write, I cannot write endings that satisfy myself.

ishnar
2009-05-24, 12:53 AM
The whole guilt trip thing is particularly untenable. It's a game world. The people in it exist (pop) for the purpose of fighting and dying. There can't possibly be any guilt involved in making that happen and doing it well. Actually it's downright crazy to suggest otherwise - and I still don't believe a dedicated gamer, put in that situation, would have the guilt reaction.



First of all, it is supposed to be a real universe modeled after a game world, it's not actually a game world.

Second of all. That's a rather sociopathic argument to make. That's no different than the argument made by some criminals who feel no guilt killing people because, "They were going to die eventually anyway, all I did was help them die a little sooner." I've actually heard people argue that people here, in the real world, have no other purpose than dying. Everyone dies, therefore it is everyone's purpose. At least, that's the argument I've heard. If that's what you believe, of course you won't take seriously anyone claiming to feel guilty after killing another. Heck, there are still people in the world that believe you haven't earned the right to be alive until you've killed at least one person to make room for yourself.

And third, this isn't just about guilt. There is a lot of anger at being used and frustration for feeling out of control.

Juhn
2009-05-24, 12:53 AM
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I'm personally wondering if the decision to have Parson too far in the background in the last panel (after he decides to destroy the sword) to be able to see if he once again has pupils. I believe it had been theorized that as he was adjusting to Erfworld more and more, he was becoming more and more like its denizens (physically, in this case), and the loss of pupils was one of the more noticeable changes. I'd have liked to see whether, if in actively rejecting Erfworld (and, evidently, enough to bypass the swear filter) he also got some of his other attributes back.

Amazing ending, though. There's a masterful use of the Precision F Strike if I ever saw one.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-24, 01:05 AM
Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Can I sig this? Please?

Hectonkhyres
2009-05-24, 01:17 AM
Ok. This word is no longer profane. It is sacred. This strip has made it this.

RMS Oceanic
2009-05-24, 01:17 AM
Precision F-Strike Aside, I wonder what does this means Parson intends to do in the future? Maybe he'll go down the path that the Hippymancer thinks he has the potential to do.

Gaiyamato
2009-05-24, 01:27 AM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

Hear! Hear! *claps*

-----------------------

Great comic. I wonder if Parson could possibly become a ruler in his own right, if he did, and he took the capital that would leave our old hammer wielding buddy as a barbarian. lol.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-24, 01:28 AM
How did he say that?

I took the sword's eyes glowing as the sword being pissed. The sparklies may be the swordy magic dissipating- or moving on.
It was the breaking of the spell that bound Parson.

Apparently, the Summoning Spell only had control over him so long as he accepted that it did. The Sword was the physical representation of that spell; it made him the Perfect Warlord - now he wants to be a Player.

Gentlemen, this is how a book is ended :smallcool:

Rebarth
2009-05-24, 01:30 AM
I hope the giant will keep book 1 here on the site. If nothing else, Rob and Jamie deserve it.

Jølly
2009-05-24, 01:46 AM
I read this page and reached the bottom without even acknowledging that the word wasn't censored. Five seconds after finishing it my brain clicked and I went back to make sure I saw what I thought I saw. :smalltongue:

An amazing ending! Sucks that its so long until book 2 begins...Its become a part of my life to check to see if there is a new page every day. I can't wait!! :smallredface:

SohumB
2009-05-24, 01:50 AM
Ah boop, someone's already linked to Precision F Strike.

Congratulations on a fantastic story, gents. I'll be following the continuation on erfworld.com as well!

(Although, page 149? That - oh, right, page 149-150. Right, ok.)

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-05-24, 01:57 AM
F***ing awesome

MrPhoenix
2009-05-24, 02:03 AM
my god... two and a half years.
i can remember it clearly when i went to giantitp.com for oots and wondered about that new link at the comics section.
i took a look and saw a bunch of giant elvises and crazy figures telling a ridiculous story about some crackpot world about wich i didn't know anything, except that it was friggin' cool.

i didn't even realize that two and a half years of my life had passed, two and a half years in wich that comic played a small role in my daily life.

well. i'm looking forward to another two and a half years. :smallbiggrin:

cheers rob and jamie and cheers to the giant, allowing them to use his page and thus showing them to me from day one.
i'm one of thus half-lurkers who commentet maybe three comics in the last years, but watched and enjoyed every single one of them.
(mostly keeping my distance to the forums and it's critics. :smallwink:)

thank you.

Manoftyr
2009-05-24, 02:51 AM
LAME that is not a cool or funny word it is vulgar word that I don't like seeing or hearing. Erfworld needs to stop trying to be dark and edgy

*de-lurk*

Wow...just, just wow. This comment *ACTUALLY* made me de-lurk it pissed me off so much.

Yeah, just because *YOU* don't like seeing or hearing a certain word it can't have artistic merit, *ever*, right?, this entire planet revolves around you and your own feeble minded perceptions of it right?, honestly; grow up.

This isn't a flame, just an honest expression of frustration at such mindless criticism and thoughtless critique directed at something so freaking epic as Erfworld.

Rich put it the best how symbolic that swear was, in fact, he put it so well I'm not even going to state it myself since I'd just be restating. Nevertheless this comic has been entertaining and enthralling from the beginning and as a writer myself I understand just how hard endings can be but *THIS* this was a good ending.The buildup was subtle but not absent, it takes you completely by surprise but when you see it you say to yourself "how did I not see this happening?!" because it fits so perfectly it seems obvious; as far as endings go this one is top notch for its beautiful simplicity. The whole book tiptoed around this issue from the beginning and then right at the end it just breaks everything and throws it all in your face like a sledgehammer to the face; brilliant, it's a sign of good writing to be able to pull that off.

And to those who say this was a sudden twist with no foreshadowing or attention paid to it, that's inaccurate, it was all subtle but still there; in Parson's behaviors, in his reactions to situations, in some of the things he would say 'in his Klogs especially'. If more direct attention was paid to this idea and it was outright stated and beaten over the reader's head it would have taken away from just how exaggerated the concept of 'breaking' was in this final page, final two pages rather, it's awesome due to the sense of 'wait, can this even happen?...apparently!' it generates in the reader.

Absolutely *FANTASTIC* job Rob and Jamie; it's stuff like this that inspires me to continue writing.

*re-lurk*

Nenec
2009-05-24, 03:11 AM
Wow, this was...just wow :smallbiggrin:

You know, when I started reading this comic I couldn't totally appreciate it, it didn't convince me at all. But from time to time it grew a special strenght, every time a little more. So, while at the beginning I was just curious about it (like: oh, a new comic, let's see if it's good enough) now I'm totally in love with it.
So thanks for writing that and thanks to Giant for letting us know it. :smallwink:

tomaO2
2009-05-24, 03:30 AM
Aboard the Starship Jamin...

"Captain, enemy ship, de-lurking behind us."

"Fire the snarkazers."

"Snakrazers ineffective. Perhaps if you stopped insisting on using the "cuss words are completely devoid of any artistic merit" setting..."

"Such talk has no place on my ship, off with his head."

"Enemy vessel is now charging it's main cannon."

"Quickly, go to warp to escape the beam. Prepare the Picard Manouver!"

"We can't sir."

"What? Why not?"

"You just had the navigator killed."

"...
Aw poop."

"We've taken a direct hit. Damage is critical. We're going down Captain. We should have enough time to get to the escape pod before we sink though."

"Going down? We're in space, we literally cannot sink."

"So sorry Capt'n, would you rather I say that the blast hit the an engine and we are about to explode, killing everyone before we have a chance to escape?"

"Um, no. I like the first option better. Let us hurry to the escape hatch.

You won this round Starship Manoftyr but I have a fleet of ships. Each with a more powerful snarkazor then the last. We shall destroy...

*re-lurk*

Oh... Right.
Stupid lurking device.
I'll find him anyway though.

HEAR THAT?
I'll get you yet Manoftyr!
I'll... get.... yoooouuuuuu!!!"


Will Jamin get Manofyr?
Will Manofyr ever de-lurk again?
Find out on the next episode of ErfStar Trek. *cue Star Trek, theme song*

Ulrich_Brew
2009-05-24, 04:16 AM
Oh....

Well, that isn't how I thought it would end. I thought it'd end with something vastly more cool... I mean, if it was the authors intent, that action could be grounds for the whole world being unmade.

Am I the only one mourning for Ruthlessness(my name for Parsons late sword)? He was slain far before his time....

I do see the whole "dude, he's fighting fate" aspect of it, but it seems kinda selfish when you don't know what will happen to Erfworld. But, that could just me being a careful parser of actions and lacking the necessary emotions to say, "boop".

I guess I must wait for the "sequel".

Stallogarro
2009-05-24, 04:53 AM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit. It is unlikely that turning off the board filters is likely to generate many such moments compared to the tens of thousands of careless usages per day it will enable.

So no, board members still don't get to cuss. Write and draw a brilliant 150-page fantasy epic, and maybe I'll let you cuss here. Once.

I sincerly believe this will be the start of the great "Epic Webcomic with Boop in it" boom of ought nine...

Seriously, I was taught in free form writing classes that I should use the actual profanities... which of course helped keep down the cussing. Cause it needed to... well... be NESCESSARY?

But of course, given that this is an internet forum and flaming neds to be kept down, I guess I grudgingly support the filter.

Mc. Lovin'
2009-05-24, 05:25 AM
The single curse at the end of this book is a powerful statement of individuality and self-determinism that, in my opinion, has significant artistic merit.

Yeah I thought that but I was gonna express it like a simpleton so, nice one there.

Pantler
2009-05-24, 05:28 AM
Wow. Don't I feel silly now, being one of the guys complaining about Erfworld in its initial stage. It really spread its wings since then.
Booping awesome.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 05:54 AM
XD Brilliant. In other words Rose, you're not Parson Gotti. :smallwink:

Yes, I know. For one thing, I don't try to swear nearly as often as he does.

Fafnir13
2009-05-24, 06:00 AM
I was kind of hoping to see the Tool return, be amazed, and declare his new plans for world conquest. Something that would at least give a solid direction to be anticipated. Now I'm left with literally no real idea what's going to happen next and won't get to find out for ages. Arg! Ultimate cliffhanger!


In essence, this is Parson's struggle against the Erfworld universe. That he is no instrument of fate that must play his part. This was the real battle. And he won.

I'd look at it more as deciding to fight. The first action of this battle (throwing away the sword) was certainly a good start, but I wouldn't go declaring victory just yet. Give it a few more turn. :smallwink:

Shepard
2009-05-24, 06:12 AM
You know what, now that Parson has both literally and symbolically foresaken the sword, I think this could be where his career as a hippimancer really starts to come out :)

thevorpalbunny
2009-05-24, 06:14 AM
I read this page and reached the bottom without even acknowledging that the word wasn't censored. Five seconds after finishing it my brain clicked and I went back to make sure I saw what I thought I saw. :smalltongue:

An amazing ending! Sucks that its so long until book 2 begins...Its become a part of my life to check to see if there is a new page every day. I can't wait!! :smallredface:

Truth, and also truth. This has convinced me to join the Erfworld site.

Simanos
2009-05-24, 06:20 AM
You're missing the point.
The use of the word **** is signifcant as each and every other time Parson cursed, we were greeted with a merry little 'boop'. An affect of the universe our Protoganoist found himself stuck in. Aftewr his long and harrowing trial and battle, he has a conversation with the universe there, and devlops a will strong enough to activly break the rules.

It is possible to use vulgarity in an artistic manner, you know.

I don't see it as an attempt at Dark and Edgy, but rather just that.
Art.
That was one point, the in-story point. The broader point was that it is hypocritical in our world (as in Erfworld) to sensor swear words and allow violence (even murders and rapes) to be shown in various media. A point SouthPark has also made in one wonderful episode about "sh!t".

Also, don't feed the troll :smallcool:

WarriorTribble
2009-05-24, 07:06 AM
Hmm, so not liking a strip is trolling, and is indicative of inferior intellect? Ayup, even with all the rules here, it's still the ol' internet.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-24, 07:34 AM
That was one point, the in-story point. The broader point was that it is hypocritical in our world (as in Erfworld) to sensor swear words and allow violence (even murders and rapes) to be shown in various media. A point SouthPark has also made in one wonderful episode about "sh!t".

Also, don't feed the troll :smallcool:

You mean "the broader point may be", not "the broader point is".
I don't really think they were going for a cheap dig at censorship, and to be honest, I think if they were, it weakens the comic immensely.

It cheapens it from a comic about self determinism and free will and our place in the universe, to a petty squabble about saying **** on teh interwebz.

Bakta
2009-05-24, 08:03 AM
A hearty round of applause, well deserved.

Interesting point about what one defines as profanity, too often forgot if one takes newscast as reference, wherever in the world you are.

Can't wait 'til book 2

Vreejack
2009-05-24, 08:08 AM
The whole guilt trip thing is particularly untenable. It's a game world. The people in it exist (pop) for the purpose of fighting and dying. There can't possibly be any guilt involved in making that happen and doing it well.

I do not see how Erfworld is fundamentally different from our own. I've always thought of it as a metaphor for our own history. Except that maybe our history is a lot more brutal.

Wisp Wings
2009-05-24, 08:31 AM
And so ends Book 1: Water Fellowship of the RingsA New HopeThe Battle for Gobwin Knob. One thing is that in the protection of GK, only one major of the elite (Misty) died. So, I sort of say that Parson did manage to protect most of the "Player Characters" on his side, sort of.

SatyreIkon
2009-05-24, 08:33 AM
YAY! PROPER SWEARWORDS!!!

This is a really strong ending for book 1 - the hero against the "system" of the whole world!!!

T-O-E
2009-05-24, 08:35 AM
A decryped gobwin should have dived into the lava, after the sword. :smalltongue:

Justyn
2009-05-24, 08:44 AM
I was kind of hoping to see the Tool return, be amazed, and declare his new plans for world conquest. Something that would at least give a solid direction to be anticipated. Now I'm left with literally no real idea what's going to happen next and won't get to find out for ages. Arg! Ultimate cliffhanger!

You consider two weeks to be "ages"?

Jamin
2009-05-24, 08:44 AM
In my opinion using the f-word is rude and never justified.
In your opinion that swear was important way to show parson's control over his own fate
Is my opinion right? For me it is. Is your opinion right? For you it is. I expressed my opinion that Erfworld tries too hard to be edgy and you call me troll.Well maybe that makes me a troll, I don't know. I do see the reason behind the swear and I see why you all thought it was important but I didn't. The great thing about life is that people can disagree and choose for themselves what to believe.
Jamin out

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 08:54 AM
In my opinion using the f-word is rude...

Glad you think so, since it was probably supposed to be rude. At this point, Parson hates the world around him (more than he hates himself for what he has become) and lashed out at it with one single strike. It remains to be seen if that will be repeated, although I hope not so the moment will not lose its impact.

Never justified? Never say never.

Is it possible to have the same dramatic impact in an epic story without using a swearword? See God of War and God of War II. The game is full of violence, nudity and implied sexuality and it's as epic as they come, but it does not contain a single swearword that breaks the PG-13 level (the game is rated M or R, I'm not sure).

Faramir
2009-05-24, 09:13 AM
As someone who read the first few strips way back when and thought "what a waste of time" and gradually changed his mind as things progressed I've now come full circle. A brilliant, unexpected, and yet totally appropriate ending. It accomplishes the incredibly difficult trick of changing the way you look at everything that's gone before without changing anything that actually happened.

One of my complaints along the way has been the lack of almost any characters (other than Sizemore and to some extent Vinnie) that could be considered admirable. Parson has now joined that list big time.

Marbit-Chow
2009-05-24, 09:17 AM
In my opinion using the f-word is rude and never justified.

I fully acknowledge your opinion, and heartily support it. A question for you, however:

Did any of the graphic violence appear justified to you? Did it disturb you as much as the swear word did?

If not, did you ask yourself why a word that, while rude and coarse, refers to an act of procreation bothered you much more than numerous scenes of wholesale destruction, and what that says about our society in general?

pendell
2009-05-24, 09:21 AM
Everything melts in lava!

looks like parson is finally free of a great many restrictions. not just the censorship- probably a lot of other rules of the realm as well. a Player.... well this will be interesting.

Erm ... no.

Why does everyone assume that ... just because he broke Erfworld's control for one fleeting second .. that he is now permanently free?

It may have been a one time thing brought on by extreme emotion and stress. He's still *in* that world. When the next book starts, we may find he can't swear again. And then he may spend the next book or three trying to figure out how he broke free of the control of Erfworld -- of Fate Magic -- and still longer do it again.

One second of free expression is not freedom. It may take the next book -- or many books -- for him to become truly free. Who knows? Perhaps when he does, he can also free the rest of Erfworld as well. God Emperor of Dune, anyone?

But other posters are right -- There is a time and place for swearing, and THIS is why you swear. Not as a meaningless amplifier every third or fourth word because you lack appropriate vocabulary. In context, it's a powerful expression of the will of the individual defying Fate, a moment of freedom against the overwhelming determinism of Life that is Erfworld. If I were an English major instead of a software engineer, that last panel would give me fodder for many, many critical essays.

Y'know, there are things I haven't liked about Erfworld. There are things I still don't like about it. But I will say this for it: It has artistic merit. It's great entertainment, but there's some real honest-to-goodness *thinking* that went into it. I applaud the authors.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Simanos
2009-05-24, 09:25 AM
You mean "the broader point may be", not "the broader point is".
I don't really think they were going for a cheap dig at censorship, and to be honest, I think if they were, it weakens the comic immensely.

It cheapens it from a comic about self determinism and free will and our place in the universe, to a petty squabble about saying **** on teh interwebz.
No I meant what I said. Parson spelled it out for you:
"You're fine with this obscenity."
The point is not saying f... on teh interwebz as you so eloquently put it. The point is hypocricy.

Gez
2009-05-24, 10:10 AM
God Emperor of Dune, anyone?

Please no. That book was awful. Last Dune novel I ever read.

Killer Angel
2009-05-24, 10:14 AM
this is totally AWESOME!
A great book, and a greater end. Parson's inner strenght and the real comprehension of his situation, gives him the power to break (probably once-in-a-life?), the language laws of erfworld.
Finally, Parson had his uncensored cuss word, and it's not even christmas (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0077.html), but i doubt that he's happy about it.

Again, a great ending, also very well drawn.

Thanks

Wyvv
2009-05-24, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure if I think it'd be a good idea for Parson to start cussing more. On the one hand, cosnidering how much he said Boop, it'd be kind of odd. On the other, it would lessen the impact of this strip. Then again Parson cussing and Erfworlders reactions to it could be used to add even more emphasis how alien he is. :smallconfused:

Baalthazaq
2009-05-24, 10:37 AM
No I meant what I said. Parson spelled it out for you:
"You're fine with this obscenity."
The point is not saying f... on teh interwebz as you so eloquently put it. The point is hypocricy.

Pfft. "The point is" again.

You think the point is. You don't know any more than I do. You're guessing intention. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but stating it as fact is just silly. (After all, the internet has been know to block those wands of detect thoughts).

Personally, I think him breaking that bond is a a tiny window into how he is breaking the hold the universe has on him through sheer force of will.

"I can fight the universe, I will fight the universe and I will win" is what it seems like to me, to you it seems like the end of the fight. "I can say ****! Yes! How cool is that!"

The first makes him a hero, ready to undo creation to rebuild a better future for this world. The second makes him a 7 year old who just figured out what the word means and is giggling to himself.

You may also wish to consider why it is the erfworld creators seem to agree so strongly with you when you're doing the interpreting. It may not be a coincidence.

Gez
2009-05-24, 12:45 PM
Pfft. "The point is" again.

You think the point is.

<snip>

to you it seems like the end of the fight. "I can say ****! Yes! How cool is that!"

Irony, thy name is Baalthazaq.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-24, 12:54 PM
Now, a cluster of f-bombs all smacking into each other both cheapens the word, and just sounds just vulgar. Tropes are not bad, and if vulgar is the way you want to characterize a character, then spray and pray with the f-word is a great way to do that. Now all through the series, Parson has been 'trying' to swear. Now he succeeds, breaking the rules. This laser guided f-strike is part of that freedom, and the delicious tension it provides while we wait for the next installment is 'what else can he break'?
This doesn't mean he's going to get permanently bestubbled, spout Duke Nukem one liners, and become Mr. Chunkwad McBeefcake.
No, this is about freedom.
I don't like swear words,I actively avoid using them.
But this, in my opinion, is a well wrought use of a word in the English language. A word that through overuse would become tiresome, but is used well here, in my opinion.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-24, 01:01 PM
Irony, thy name is Baalthazaq.

You snipped an important part. "You don't know any more than I do."
I figured the following paragraph would be obvious interpretation without further elaboration. Evidently not.

HandofShadows
2009-05-24, 01:07 PM
Excellent end for the chapter. Parson is pissed and NOT going to take it anymore. He is out to change the world around him and not be a tool.

Cannot help but think this is exactly what Janis was looking for AND if Parson was brought by Erfworld, what Erfworld may want as well. Erfworld may not like what it is now. but cannot change itself. So it may be using Parson to force a change. Time will tell.

Gez
2009-05-24, 01:16 PM
You snipped an important part. "You don't know any more than I do."
I figured the following paragraph would be obvious interpretation without further elaboration. Evidently not.

I'm talking about how you interpret Simanos' post in a way which really doesn't seem to be what he meant.

Parson is rebelling against Erfworld for many reasons, which include both the hypocritical nature of it ("you're fine with this obscenity" is definitely calling it on its hypocrisy, being fine with gruesome violence and mass-scale massacres, but making everything look cute and child-friendly -- until half-melted bodies start falling down from the sky) and his affirmation of free will ("I won't be a gamepiece").

Those two elements are there. Simanos points out the former, and you think he views it as just Parson doing a Beavis & Butthead routine. That's definitely not it.

Simanos
2009-05-24, 01:31 PM
Irony, thy name is may be Baalthazaq.
Fixed it for you :smallcool:
Thanks for explaining what I said (or may have said) to Baa.

Cloudbreaker
2009-05-24, 02:26 PM
That was an awesome first book. Can't wait for the summer updates and book two in the fall! (not that anyone cares that I can't wait :P )

cnsvnc
2009-05-24, 03:24 PM
It may have been a one time thing brought on by extreme emotion and stress. He's still *in* that world. When the next book starts, we may find he can't swear again. And then he may spend the next book or three trying to figure out how he broke free of the control of Erfworld -- of Fate Magic -- and still longer do it again.
This is a valid point. We don't know if this is permenant.
...

Since I've been mentally inserting appropriate words instead of boop from day 1, I didn't even notice Parson wasn't censored when I read the comic the first time.


why a word that, while rude and coarse, refers to an act of procreation bothered you is considered offensive much more than numerous scenes of wholesale destruction, and what that says about our society in general?

Regardless of the comic, regardless of whatever opinion you have on F, B, S, other B, other F and other S words, this is a point worth thinking about. Just like pornography being seen more disturbing than carnography, there's simply no nonstupid answer to that question, and I'll put dough where my mouth is: A cookie to anyone who can answer me that.

I'm also quite compelled to say FU to those who don't like the use swearwords, but that'd be too immature...

ishnar
2009-05-24, 03:35 PM
Please no. That book was awful. Last Dune novel I ever read.

Funny, After God Emperor the series got really good again. I've liked every book since.

ishnar
2009-05-24, 03:38 PM
Hmm, so not liking a strip is trolling, and is indicative of inferior intellect? Ayup, even with all the rules here, it's still the ol' internet.

Well, no one was called a troll for "not liking the strip." rather there were some unjustified accusations made and a few closed minded comments made that drew a negative response. If someone just came on and said, "The ending just didn't do anything for me." then they would not have been accused of trolling.

There is a difference between not liking someone and hitting them because you don't like them.

Juhn
2009-05-24, 04:15 PM
Why does everyone assume that ... just because he broke Erfworld's control for one fleeting second .. that he is now permanently free?

It may have been a one time thing brought on by extreme emotion and stress. He's still *in* that world. When the next book starts, we may find he can't swear again. And then he may spend the next book or three trying to figure out how he broke free of the control of Erfworld -- of Fate Magic -- and still longer do it again.

One second of free expression is not freedom. It may take the next book -- or many books -- for him to become truly free. Who knows?

This right here is effectively why I mentioned not being able to tell whether or not Parson got his pupils back in the last panel, which would have been another indication of his freedom. I wonder if it was a deliberate decision for us not to be able to tell, or a limitation brought on by image size.

galdon
2009-05-24, 05:32 PM
I like the ending part, the cursing probably distracted attention from it, but the sword represented ruthlessness. He could actually be a hippymancer afterall; a hippy doesn't need ruthlessness.

Lamech
2009-05-24, 05:45 PM
The doom artifact melted in the volcano? That always gets rid of it never to reappear again; no ominous sparkels of magic flying away too... aw, crap.

Also very well drawn Jamie did a very good job on this strip. And congrats to Rob, this strip was very powerful use of a swear word. The best I can recall by a wide margin.

Estelindis
2009-05-24, 06:09 PM
Wow, that was amazing. I never thought such a commonly-used swearword in the world at large could be made into a crowning moment of awesome. The cutesy lack of swearing in the comic so far really made this have such a huge, meaningful impact. Epic win.

WarriorTribble
2009-05-24, 06:13 PM
Well, no one was called a troll for "not liking the strip." rather there were some unjustified accusations made and a few closed minded comments made that drew a negative response. If someone just came on and said, "The ending just didn't do anything for me." then they would not have been accused of trolling.The thing that drew most ire (and the troll comment) was Jamin's post that called the strip vulgar, and trying to be dark and edgy. They are just subjective measurements, and don’t deserve comments telling him to "grow up," "lighten up," and worse. Thinking the strip is vulgar boils down to someone saying "The ending just didn't do anything for me. Here's why:" why in nine hells rationalizing a dislike of something is considered trolling I'll never know.

Island Gorilla
2009-05-24, 06:59 PM
In my opinion using the f-word is rude and never justified.
In your opinion that swear was important way to show parson's control over his own fate
Is my opinion right? For me it is. Is your opinion right? For you it is.

Swell. Unfortunately for you, all opinions are not born equal. Hell, I can think of half-a-dozen situations in which using the word is justifiable, just off the top of my noggin.
As writers, Rich and Rob think the word has merit when applied in the right situation. As a writer, I agree. And may I ask, from which position exactly are you opposing?



XD Brilliant. In other words Rose, you're not Parson Gotti.
Yes, I know. For one thing, I don't try to swear nearly as often as he does.

Dude, have you been reading this comic? If you had his life you'd be swearing too.
Gamers swear all the damn-hell-ass time. Rob's most likely going for verisimilitude with his portrayal of Parson, the epitome of 'gamer'. Not making a value judgement about profanity. Representing a traditionally profane section of society accurately.
Would you prefer it if soldiers in the war movies minded their p's and q's too?

Jamin
2009-05-24, 07:21 PM
Swell. Unfortunately for you, all opinions are not born equal. Hell, I can think of half-a-dozen situations in which using the word is justifiable, just off the top of my noggin.
As writers, Rich and Rob think the word has merit when applied in the right situation. As a writer, I agree. And may I ask, from which position exactly are you opposing?



So my opinion is less than yours because you are writer. Kay in that case as a comedian I decide all that is funny in the world. Wait no that isn't how it works. we all human and deserve to have our voices heard.

Island Gorilla
2009-05-24, 07:33 PM
So my opinion is less than yours because you are writer.

Hey, don't put words in my mouth. I asked you a question.

Jamin
2009-05-24, 07:35 PM
oh maybe I misunderstood What do you mean by position?

Island Gorilla
2009-05-24, 07:38 PM
oh maybe I misunderstood What do you mean by position?

I was asking if you had any special insight which might make your opinion carry more weight.

Jamin
2009-05-24, 07:42 PM
No I don't have a phd in Erfworldology I have an opinion it worth just as much as yours. Why is yours better than mine?

Island Gorilla
2009-05-24, 08:01 PM
No I don't have a phd in Erfworldology I have an opinion it worth just as much as yours. Why is yours better than mine?

I'm not saying it's better. I'm throwing my lot in with Rob and to a lesser extent Rich, who both have made it clear where they stand and what they think that profanity can contribute to a scene of catharsis. It's a technique I've used in the past, and will use again; although considering the mechanics of Erfworld itself, this was an especially effective instance.

People, and I will include myself in this, are irritated because several posters, including yourself, seem inclined to dismiss this attempt at a poignant and dramatic coda to an unquestionably epic story as merely an offhand and vulgar application of an overused epithet.

I won't apologise for not holding your opinion in the same esteem as theirs, as they're both artists whose work I respect, whereas I don't know enough about you to confer upon you a similar level of regard. Having assumed that you don't define yourself as a writer and that therefore that you weren't likely to be familiar with creative use of profanity, I mentioned my occupation as an indication that I perhaps would be more cognizant of the creative process that would lead to a product like the one we are discussing.

Elder Wraith
2009-05-24, 08:33 PM
Wow...Just wow.:smallcool:

Nice conclusion too part one.

Jamin
2009-05-24, 08:38 PM
Well I can see that my words are not wanted here. Clearly if I have a different opinion than the creators of something they are right and I am wrong. Well by that logic we should love everything because writers wrote it.
But I just want to say that I never attacked anyone it was you guys who said "I wish I could flame him" "Grow up" "You don't write so you are not as cool as people who do" You are all just defending what you love and I can understand that but there was no need to attack me for not liking it. I don't like swearing or over the top violence or sex scenes. If you do, great it doesn't hurt me. I was not trying to troll because truthfully I did not think that anyone would really care enough to respond. I am sorry if my not loving that swear and not saying that it is the greatest thing ever has hurt you somehow.
I hope you all keep on enjoying Erfworld
Jamin's Fleet will find that lurker and give him a big hug
Jamin Out

WarriorTribble
2009-05-24, 08:47 PM
Well, I at least like seeing dissenting opinions. If nothing else, I've this crazy theory that the anger people feel for unpopular opinions will eventually exhaust them, and make people slightly more tolerant (or at least more civil) overall.

Surfing HalfOrc
2009-05-24, 09:27 PM
Well, I'm back. I said I wasn't going to post after Stanley made his run for the mysterious Stealthy Mountains, and I meant it. But now that the story is over, I do have a few observations to make, both story and audience.

There were a number of plot holes in this story, and for as much thought and argument that went into the audience participation area, after a certain point no one wanted to point them out. I would say that the intimidating walls o' text that often come from the regular posters had a bit to do with it.

First, (and for those who remember me) there was the "Why did Parson put Jillian back into play so close to the Donut of Doom?" Yes, I'm STILL beefing on that. Having played numerous hex based games, I know you don't put an enemy piece back on the board where there is ANY possibility of them hitting your strongest units, or anything super critical to you plans.

Second, and the reason I left, mountains are not stealthy. They don't hide behind the trees, they don't duck down into valleys. They LOOM! They DOMINATE the skyline! If they are lurking way back on the horizon, they are far away. Too far for Stanley to fly to in a single move, especially if they were the shorter ranged dwagons as was presented in the story. And I lived in the Shadow of Pikes Peak when I wrote of my displeasure with that particular plot point, and often drove east quite a ways into Eastern Colorado. One thing I noticed, even 40 or 50 miles away was The Mountain. So when we see Gobwin Knob, and a lack of "nearby" mountains, I'm gonna say something about it. The mountains on page 3? Yeah, I saw them. Notice the haze around them, their small size? That's usually indicative of distance.

Third, can't these guys count? Seriously, "one" does not equal "many," in any math text book I ever studied. Now I'll admit I was a Liberal Arts major (History and Political Science, and a Master's of Education), and took the easiest Algebra class I could find for my math credits, but HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html) it says GK has one metal golem, while here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html) there are four more. Now before you try to say the metallic color is the same as the soft rock golem, Golem (sorry, didn't want to dig up the umlat, but I know it belongs there) must be the same as the Christopher Cross golem, let me cut you off right there with a "Don't even try it!" Golem more or less equals Kiss, and Beth not withstanding, Kiss was metal through and through. The Hard Rock Golems were presented as brown, in this panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0088.html), so if Golem was only a Hard Rock unit, the color shift needs to be explained in story. If Sizemore upgraded his Hard Rockers into Metal, we kind of need to see that somewhere, otherwise it is what is commonly known as an asspull.

Fourth: varying gravity. It's a different world, with different rules, but Wanda should have been all over the Arkenpliers here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0134.html), and not having to wait until the end of the story. Sure, it would have changed the endgame, but if the authors could just stop cheating Parson to advance the story, it would have been much more satisfying.

There is more, but I'll hold off for now.

So, you're probably asking why do I read the story, if I don't like it so much? Actually, I loved this story, from the time I started reading it about 30 pages in until the ending. The artwork is amazing, the story and especially the details are so rich and clever, what's not to like? Besides the gaping plot holes that so many people are willing to ignore. :smallwink:

I'll see you guys over on the Erfworld page! I'm using the Erf version of my GiantITP avatar, so feel free to tell me in all the myriad ways I am wrong, and Rob and Jamie wrote nothing but pure perfection.

Aliquid
2009-05-24, 09:58 PM
Well, I'm back. I said I wasn't going to post after Stanley made his run for the mysterious Stealthy Mountains, and I meant it. But now that the story is over, I do have a few observations to make, both story and audience........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief (Click here for response)

valce
2009-05-24, 11:52 PM
So my opinion is less than yours because you are writer. Kay in that case as a comedian I decide all that is funny in the world. Wait no that isn't how it works. we all human and deserve to have our voices heard.

"We are all human and deserve to have our voices heard."

That is a fine and noble sentiment, right up until somebody uses it to say something like "The sun revolves around the earth" or "I think we should boil the children alive." These, while they are certainly opinions, are not in any way worth hearing.

All opinions are not equal. If you express an opinion that is contrary to the prevailing social currents, then you should expect some antagonism. That doesn't have to mean you're wrong, but it does mean that if you can't handle antagonism, then you shouldn't express your opinions.

<3 :)

PS: I liked the strip, can't wait for the book :)

Alexei P
2009-05-25, 12:29 AM
If you express an opinion that is contrary to the prevailing social currents, then you should expect some antagonism.

Really, now. I wouldn't call six forum pages "prevailing social currents". Personally, I found the cussing less significant than the fact that Parson threw away the sword. There are strong symbolic associations with that gesture.

chefsotero
2009-05-25, 12:33 AM
Bravo, great comic, great ending and quite outstanding job Mr Balder and Mr. Noguchi. I can't wait to get my hands in the printed version and I'm very glad I got the chance to read it here. Many thanks.

I do have to agree partially with Srufing HalfOrc thou, there r some minor plotholes in the comic. But IMHO and great stroy counts way more then the ability to proprely acount for golens :smalltongue:

And about the discussion if booping is good/bad/should be used/will be... seriously....

Its an matter of opinion. If someone is an vegetarian someoneelse shouldn't be cooking steak in this veggie kitchen. That dosen't mean that steaks ar good or bad, just that they shouldn't be in the space that belongs to someone that don't like then.

Mr. Burlew created an wonderfull 655 course vegie meal, and in his house he welcomed erfworld that gave us an 150 course vegie meal plus one single strip of bacon.

I personaly like brazilian BBQ quite a lot, but hey this ain't my house and here there is some amazing food, so lets enjoy this place under the rules of the guy how made it all. Now if in the 2nd Erfworld book there is going to be more meat, thats up to Rob and Jamie, now they are in there own joint. But one thing that I belive really matters, and I'm quite shure won't be an desapontment is: "Will the food be Tasty?"Vegetarian or not, I bet it will.

Oh boy I need to get out more, way to many culinary analogies :smallcool:

Kizor
2009-05-25, 12:47 AM
"We are all human and deserve to have our voices heard."

The fact that this was thrown into a forum debate over a comic strip and a swearword suggests that the guy who said it has some trouble with perspective.

The fact that it was taken completely seriously suggests that the lot of us need to leave our keyboards and go outside. Howsabout we lay the debate to rest? Fine, done, amen. The sword's glowing eyes have been pointed out as a possible sign that the magic in it is dissipating or moving elsewhere. If we go by the giant hippiemancer gambit, it's also a sign that the sword has done its job by getting Parson to choose throwing it away. But when you're against the hippiemancer conspiracy, what isn't its instrument?

Arkenputtyknife
2009-05-25, 01:39 AM
As someone who read the first few strips way back when and thought "what a waste of time" and gradually changed his mind as things progressed I've now come full circle.

So, Faramir has returned to considering it a waste of time? :smallbiggrin:

I know it's not what was intended, but it's what “come full circle” means: returning to your starting point.

StClair
2009-05-25, 01:46 AM
Nice. A great conclusion to Book 1.

Of course, come Book 2, it'll probably show up in his Stupid Meal. Cursed items are like that.

Fafnir13
2009-05-25, 02:40 AM
First, (and for those who remember me) there was the "Why did Parson put Jillian back into play so close to the Donut of Doom?" Yes, I'm STILL beefing on that. Having played numerous hex based games, I know you don't put an enemy piece back on the board where there is ANY possibility of them hitting your strongest units, or anything super critical to you plans.

Needed to be within range of the column so Ansom could be lured out to rescue her. That was the plan at that moment. IIRC, it wasn't until the next turn that he came up with and implemented the doughnut.



Second, and the reason I left, mountains are not stealthy.

Artistic license. Plus, erfworld may not have the best draw-distance. :smallwink:



HERE it says GK has one metal golem, while here there are four more....If Sizemore upgraded his Hard Rockers into Metal, we kind of need to see that somewhere, otherwise it is what is commonly known as an asspull.

I'll admit that this one has me wondering as well. Likeliest suspect is that they were upgraded as the aformentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html) bonus that golems receive when lead by a Dirtamancer, but that certainly can't be proven without the authors confirmation. I don't expect them to explain everything in their comic, but it would have been nice to know in this particular case.



Fourth: varying gravity. It's a different world, with different rules, but Wanda should have been all over the Arkenpliers here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0134.html), and not having to wait until the end of the story.

Varying gravity? Eh, not really. Pliers fall. She gives orders, then flies down. Flying is probably slower then falling, especially as she does need to pull up a little towards the end of the flight. Plenty of time for an intercept shot. Some of the perspective shots do look a little off, but I would chalk that up to artistic license once again.
As for waiting the extra time, Parson needed to be forced into using his terrible last resort in order to grow as a character. Decrypt would have probably won the day, but not in such a horrific manner that would allow Parson to question himself and the world. This is the position that the authors needed him to be in for the next chapter. I don't think winning the battle in any other way would have had the necessary impact.


You consider two weeks to be "ages"?

Yes. :smalltongue:

DoctorJest
2009-05-25, 03:12 AM
The thing that drew most ire (and the troll comment) was Jamin's post that called the strip vulgar, and trying to be dark and edgy. They are just subjective measurements, and don’t deserve comments telling him to "grow up," "lighten up," and worse. Thinking the strip is vulgar boils down to someone saying "The ending just didn't do anything for me. Here's why:" why in nine hells rationalizing a dislike of something is considered trolling I'll never know.

It may not be trolling, but it's telegraphing "I missed the entire point!" pretty loud and clear.

You know, there's a forest out there, and one might see it, if they stop focusing so much on those pesky trees getting in their way.

DoctorJest
2009-05-25, 03:13 AM
That doesn't have to mean you're wrong

Nor does it mean you're right.

glissle
2009-05-25, 03:57 AM
The boop filter isn't the only rule Parson broke - throwing away the sword would seem to be a violation of Duty.

I wonder if he will order Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie not to mention the sword to Stanley (who doesn't know he had it). I guess until Book 2, and probably even then, I'll just have to assume that Stanley is so overwhelmed by everything that's happened that what the sword thing says about Parson's loyalty won't stand out to him.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-25, 03:59 AM
No I don't have a phd in Erfworldology I have an opinion it worth just as much as yours. Why is yours better than mine?

I kinda see your positions as one of Armchair Moralist. You sit back and simply criticise whatever media that violates your personnal convention. It's easy to have basic moralities in that situation (like your "Swear words are never acceptable", very basic)

I am in the same boat than you. However, there are some people (writers) who actually have to ask themselves wether or not a swear word here would emphasise what they want to say, or if it would be simply vulgar. Then again, maybe they effectively want to show vulgarity, and that's the point?

The people who properly write and try to be serious about it (and don't go over the top to create Cluster F-bomb) have to consider swearing in their work, and thus they have more experience in actually consdering the pros and cons of including swear word into their story.

You? You read, and say: "that's wrong". You don't consider, you simply criticize/condone the media that you absorb, like the majority of the population.

Are you wrong because of it? No. wether you are right or wrong in the argument is irrelevant on how much you are qualified to talk about it. Like somebody said, you can be right for all the wrong reasons, or wrong for all the right reasons.

Personnally, I think that any "absolutism" view of morality, in any kind of case, is wrong. If you restrict yourself to always take the same side of an issue, no matter the circumstances, then I say you would lack proper consideration of that issue. which is why I totally dislike Rorschak's morality, he is an abomination (but he's great as a character). Rorschach is right, but for the wrong reasons. In the end, he does good, but he is still misguided, in my opinion.

There are issues that I have difficulties to find the circumstance that would make them "acceptable" on the side of morality. But because I lack imagination doesn't mean I don't have to always look at what's presented to me.

So, for me, saying that "swearwords are never justified" is wrong. But you could say: "Saying **** in that coming was out of place" might be right. In the end, you are simply examining Erfworld #162, and its content. So rather than making generalisation out of your jugement of #162, or using your generalisation to juge #162, let's just keep our talk @ #162, without needing to create Grand Rules of Morality out of it.

Killer Angel
2009-05-25, 05:43 AM
The boop filter isn't the only rule Parson broke - throwing away the sword would seem to be a violation of Duty.


In that precise moment, probably Parson was totally free from Erfword's rules.
But Duty compels you not simply to obey (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html), but to act in a way that favors your Leader.
Parson could throw away the sword, if said object doesn't let him think by his own way.
A strategist most precious weapon is his mind, and Parson is no exception; he's not confortable with the sword.

Island Gorilla
2009-05-25, 06:23 AM
Really, now. I wouldn't call six forum pages "prevailing social currents".

I think valce was talking about the increasingly casual use of profanity across society. I may be wrong.

teratorn
2009-05-25, 06:45 AM
I think valce was talking about the increasingly casual use of profanity across society. I may be wrong.

All the talk about this in a comic where the protagonist curses the whole time is somewhat amusing. The curse was always there it was simply censored. What did people thing many of those boops were? If the poster thinks this stuff is vulgar then he's objecting to most of the comic. I have no problem with that, it's just strange he needed to see the thing written to object to a word I guess was there a lot of times.

The thing to note is not that Parson cursed, but that the world allowed it. I see it as the confirmation that the world really wished for Parson and is happy with him, so it granted him this small reward.

HandofShadows
2009-05-25, 07:06 AM
The thing to note is not that Parson cursed, but that the world allowed it.

It could also be that the world could not stop him.

Gez
2009-05-25, 07:19 AM
I don't like swearing or over the top violence or sex scenes.

All three are repeatedly present in Erfworld (even if swearing is censored all but once).


About the plot holes:

- Stealthy mountains -- irrelevant, really. Just a question of artistic license and stuff. Maybe hex limits make things more blurry out there? It would fit with the gamelike qualities of the world, making it computer-gamelike ("the current hex and the six around it are fully displayed, then the ring around that use LOD stuff and the rest isn't displayed").
- Metal golems or rock golems wouldn't have changed anything to the scene. You can say it's a blooper and invert the number on the sheet. As such, it's at most a continuity error, not a plot hole. Kinda like when an actor in a costume movie forgot to remove his watch. "Plot hole! Robin Hood never had a Casio Digital!" Sorry, no. No effect on the plot.
- Dwagon Donut. Here I agree about it, the trap thing was half-assed and he should have placed the entire donut on the lake, with the wounded dwagons protected by the ring of fresh dwagons, and Ansom unable to bring his heavies (such as gumps) to bear.

Koretsu
2009-05-25, 07:34 AM
I fully acknowledge your opinion, and heartily support it. A question for you, however:

Did any of the graphic violence appear justified to you? Did it disturb you as much as the swear word did?

If not, did you ask yourself why a word that, while rude and coarse, refers to an act of procreation bothered you much more than numerous scenes of wholesale destruction, and what that says about our society in general?

De-lurking to quote this for truth.


...But as long as I'm here, let me express my profound gratitude towards the Giant, Rob, and Jamie. Thank you allowing me to experience such a wonderful story. Thank you for taking gobwins and dwagons and a world with Elvis-Gods and making it into a truly thought-provoking story.

I've been a dedicated follower since this story started two years ago. I loved every panel. Every major plot point. Every character's introduction and development. Every subtle joke or gag that I didn't catch until my fifth or sixth read.

I could go on forever, but instead of posting a wall of text, let me just close with this:

Thank you. I'm truly happy to have read this. :smallsmile:

Ulrich_Brew
2009-05-25, 08:12 AM
Ok, I'm less grumpy about the cliffhanger now.

I can't properly understand what everyone means when they say, "OMG HE SWORE CMOA!" For me it a just a Trivia: Parson swore at the end of Book 1. I really didn't even register that he swore. I should have. He swore as he threw is sword. I bet Bogroll would think he swor(e)d.

My opinion matters more than yours because I'm so booping cool, ask me about it sometime.

So, protagonist has refused the call, but the call knows where he lives.

Essentially the actions of 162 contribute to his breaking the rules to win, not resigning to fate, and keeping fighting. I see him as Frodo and Samwise thrown into one body. Several conversations that they had in the movies (I can never remember text but enjoy the books more than the movies) about how sad the big ol' world is come to mind. Then, as all seems lost, the other hobbit pops in and delivers some great insight on why they need to fight the current and save the world.

I just broke my slightly humorous post. Bummer.

Can wait til Book 2, but I'd prefer not to.

Simanos
2009-05-25, 08:56 AM
Dude, have you been reading this comic? If you had his life you'd be swearing too.
Gamers swear all the damn-hell-ass time. Rob's most likely going for verisimilitude with his portrayal of Parson, the epitome of 'gamer'. Not making a value judgement about profanity. Representing a traditionally profane section of society accurately.
Would you prefer it if soldiers in the war movies minded their p's and q's too?
Interesting. One might say Parson could say it because it was the only time he really meant it (as an insult). All the other times (like when his head hurt), it was only an expression, that's how he's used to speaking about everyday events. Like saying "this is fukin great".

Opinions are like anuses, everybody's got one. What matters is how you support it. I would post George Carlin's "7 words you can't say on TV" link here to youtube, but I'm not sure how some would see that.

PinkysBrain
2009-05-25, 11:18 AM
Seems a bit late to be offended by the off colorness of this strip. What with the lesbian dominatrix who slept her way up in the strip. Maybe they should end book 2 with the famous quote from Epicurus just to make the last few people understand it was never cute and safe to begin with.

Dizcorp
2009-05-25, 12:46 PM
For me, that was a very good way to end the book. More than one layer in that strip!

As for the profanity... artistic licence, baby. The Giant put it perfectly - 150 strips, one obscenity. It was quite a booping effective obscenity too. Someone linked to an appropriate TV Tropes article about rare F-bombs which sums it up well.

Thanks Jamie and Rob, you two have done very well. I was a bit sceptical about Erfworld when you started it (some of the humour was too esoteric for me, and I call myself a nerd), but I'll certainly be following the next book on your new site.

Can't wait.

ishnar
2009-05-25, 01:21 PM
Well, I'm back. I said I wasn't going to post after Stanley made his run for the mysterious Stealthy Mountains, and I meant it. But now that the story is over, I do have a few observations to make, both story and audience.

Don't try to apply RW physics to alternate dimensions, especially an alternate dimension based on game mechanics. In game physics, you only see as far as your character's vision stat. No matter how big a mountian is in the distance everything else is fog of war. In other words, in a war game, you don't see a mountain until you're practically standing on it.




First, (and for those who remember me) there was the "Why did Parson put Jillian back into play so close to the Donut of Doom?"

Parson didn't put her in play there, Wanda put her there. Don't forget that Wanda was completely confident of her ability to control Jillian. Her breaking out of control hindsight.


Third, can't these guys count? Seriously, "one" does not equal "many," in any math text book I ever studied. Now I'll admit I was a Liberal Arts major (History and Political Science, and a Master's of Education), and took the easiest Algebra class I could find for my math credits, but HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html) it says GK has one metal golem, while here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html) there are four more.

This is a valid point, but keep in mind. Usually a writer writes many drafts of a story before publishing it and the process of writing will usually dictate many changes to the original vision, even if they are rather small. Then during the drafting process, they go back and edit in any necessary changes. Here I just assume it was the original intention to have 1 Metal golem and later they changed their mind. Don't forget we are looking at a pre-published version of the story and that Rob and Jamie already said a lot will be edited when the book is published. So don't criticize this draft as if it were a final copy.




Fourth: varying gravity. It's a different world, with different rules, but Wanda should have been all over the Arkenpliers here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0134.html), and not having to wait until the end of the story. Sure, it would have changed the endgame, but if the authors could just stop cheating Parson to advance the story, it would have been much more satisfying.

I can only assume you are not familiar with normal RP conventions but this is simply the "Talking is a free action" mechanic present in nearly every tabletop RPG. Someone can stand two feet away from you and shoot you in the face, and you can still get off a short speech before the bullet hits. It has nothing to do with gravity.

DoomedPaladin
2009-05-25, 02:45 PM
Nawsome!!

I like how Parson declares that he is a player, and as such, Effing the plot is exactly what he will do.

Tanaar
2009-05-25, 03:53 PM
Is your opinion right?

Yes.

Words only have the power and meaning they are given, and the meaning given that word by Jamie and Rob is completely unrelated to its common usage. As it is the common usage that you object to, your objection to it here is close-minded and nonsensical. You applied meaning that was not intended by the writers; ergo the vulgarity you perceive is non-existent.

docstrange
2009-05-25, 06:54 PM
What a fantastic ride! I'm looking forward to the next book, and seeing what Parson does with his newfound power to curse.

Thank you Rob and Jamie--among other inspirations, your success (and Rich's with OOTS) encouraged me to start a serial webnovel of my own.

Jamin
2009-05-25, 07:14 PM
Yes.

Words only have the power and meaning they are given, and the meaning given that word by Jamie and Rob is completely unrelated to its common usage. As it is the common usage that you object to, your objection to it here is close-minded and nonsensical. You applied meaning that was not intended by the writers; ergo the vulgarity you perceive is non-existent.

When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.

Decius
2009-05-25, 07:32 PM
So my opinion is less than yours because you are writer. Kay in that case as a comedian I decide all that is funny in the world. Wait no that isn't how it works. we all human and deserve to have our voices heard.

Ok, but you took a position different than any of us. "Cussing is never justified."

My position is "Cussing is seldom justified. This is one of the cases in which it is." Had Parson actually cussed every time he was booped, it would have been excessive. That Parson tried to cuss excessively is part of his character.

In this case, the line "I am a player. F- YOU." is several acts of rebellion against reality fantasy(?) that literally cannot be conceived or understood by anyone else. It is further justified by the fact that Parson is responsible for the permanent death of killed the only entity that was his friend in Erfworld- Bogroll.

He has declared that he is not a Pawn, and not a King, but a Player. The sword, which was within the rules, no longer applies to him. The censorship, which is also part of the rules, no longer applies. He wants to know that, and he needs to let the readers and the world know that as well.


Words only have the power and meaning they are given, and the meaning given that word by Jamie and Rob is completely unrelated to its common usage. As it is the common usage that you object to, your objection to it here is close-minded and nonsensical. You applied meaning that was not intended by the writers; ergo the vulgarity you perceive is non-existent.

Um, words have no meaning. Maps do not have mountain ranges, and blueprints do not have mill scale. Words signify meaning, and I give Jamie and Rob credit for choosing the right words: Ones that their audience will interpret to mean what they wanted them to mean. To imply otherwise is a slur upon the authors, and I don't think you intended that. What the audience reads into the work is what an artist actually creates.

While there is a school of thought that says that "Only author intent is real", even they admit that the author cannot intend for the work to be created in a vacuum. "Author intent" is a cry to ignore history that the author was unaware of (Such as things that happened after production of the work).
If we look at the meaning of the phrase "F- YOU", as it was in the time and culture in which it was written, (I.E. a few days ago) it IS vulgar. In its current context, I don't think it is obscene, but that matter is open to discussion.(See above)


EDIT:

When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.

As regards language,
vulgar: spoken by, or being in the language spoken by, the people generally
obscene: offensive to morality or decency; indecent; depraved

vulgar and obscene are almost mutally exclusive: One is what is in common use, the other is what goes beyond the pale.

To say that vulgarity is offensive is to assert that one is in a class distinct from the common class. Is that what you intend?

Lamech
2009-05-25, 07:52 PM
Well, I'm back. I said I wasn't going to post after Stanley made his run for the mysterious Stealthy Mountains, and I meant it. But now that the story is over, I do have a few observations to make, both story and audience.

<snippity>

Third, can't these guys count? Seriously, "one" does not equal "many," in any math text book I ever studied. Now I'll admit I was a Liberal Arts major (History and Political Science, and a Master's of Education), and took the easiest Algebra class I could find for my math credits, but HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html) it says GK has one metal golem, while here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html) there are four more. Now before you try to say the metallic color is the same as the soft rock golem, Golem (sorry, didn't want to dig up the umlat, but I know it belongs there) must be the same as the Christopher Cross golem, let me cut you off right there with a "Don't even try it!" Golem more or less equals Kiss, and Beth not withstanding, Kiss was metal through and through. The Hard Rock Golems were presented as brown, in this panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0088.html), so if Golem was only a Hard Rock unit, the color shift needs to be explained in story. If Sizemore upgraded his Hard Rockers into Metal, we kind of need to see that somewhere, otherwise it is what is commonly known as an asspull.

<slicity>

I'll see you guys over on the Erfworld page! I'm using the Erf version of my GiantITP avatar, so feel free to tell me in all the myriad ways I am wrong, and Rob and Jamie wrote nothing but pure perfection.
First off... 1, 2 and 4 have been better answered than I could. Now, 3; ask your self how are golems made? Magic. Now how could Sizemore pop all those units? No way he has that much juice, he would need some sort of convient storage method for spells. Notice those scrolls? They store spells until needed? I think he might have used those.
My alternate theory is golems are like pokemon and evolve as they level; which presumably happened a lot.

Island Gorilla
2009-05-25, 08:48 PM
I would post George Carlin's "7 words you can't say on TV" link here to youtube, but I'm not sure how some would see that.


When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.

"But there are some two-way words, those double-meaning words. Remember the ones you laughed at in sixth grade?
'And the coc|< crowed three times--'
'Hahaha, the coc|< crowed three times hahaha, it's in the Bible hahahaha...'"

:smallwink:

Jamin
2009-05-25, 09:07 PM
Look it is fine that you guys think it was a cool swear. More power too you. You feel that swearing is justifiable and I don't. We disagree about how we see page 162. This is a forum for discussing Erfworld. I, Jamin Big huge stick in the mud that I am think Erfworld is offensive and confusing. Others see it as a amazing and well thought out comic. I won't be reading book 2. Others will. Who is right? Everyone is right.
Look all I am trying to say is that my opinion is equal to yours not better or worse just the same . But you seem to feel that your world view is right and mine is close-minded. Well maybe mine is but who among you can say that there is not at least one thing you are close-minded about and that is okay
here come the attacks
Jamin Out

Suicide Junkie
2009-05-25, 09:21 PM
You can argue all day that dwagons cannot ever exist.
But if everybody around you is talking about how awesome it is to be riding these toothy winged things around... you should consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Empirical evidence trumps opinion.

Jamin
2009-05-25, 09:26 PM
50 million french Men can't be wrong

Gez
2009-05-25, 09:52 PM
50 million french Men can't be wrong

It's well know French men have no problems with profanity. That's why the English say "Pardon my French". :smalltongue:

Anyway, you're taking a rigid, dogmatic and close-minded approach to the issue. "Profanity is bad, m'kay" and the thought stop here. No room left for context, register, verisimilitude, characterization, build-up, and other literary elements.

As was remarked before, the story was full of profanity -- just censored with a cutesy "boop" -- since Parson appeared; even before if you consider "crap" to be profanity (shouted loudly in the first batch when Erfworld debuted with several pages all at once). It has also included gruesome violence and sex scenes, two other things which you've said you never like. So why did you read all 162 pages of Erfworld if it's full of stuff that is never acceptable in a story, no matter how and why it's told?

Jamin
2009-05-25, 09:58 PM
I only read like 40 pages than stopped than saw it was over looked into.
Also just what do you guys want to say anyways

Decius
2009-05-25, 10:25 PM
Look it is fine that you guys think it was a cool swear. More power too you. You feel that swearing is justifiable and I don't. We disagree about how we see page 162. This is a forum for discussing Erfworld. I, Jamin Big huge stick in the mud that I am think Erfworld is offensive and confusing. Others see it as a amazing and well thought out comic. I won't be reading book 2. Others will. Who is right? Everyone is right.
Look all I am trying to say is that my opinion is equal to yours not better or worse just the same . But you seem to feel that your world view is right and mine is close-minded. Well maybe mine is but who among you can say that there is not at least one thing you are close-minded about and that is okay
here come the attacks
Jamin Out

I do not refuse to consider points of view because they are not my own, and I do not refuse to consider attempts to convince me to change my point of view. I am not aware of anything that I am close-minded about, even though it has been over a year since I changed a significant aspect of my belief system.

You expressed an opinion different from ours. We asked why you felt that way. You restated your opinion in different terms, without explaining why.

I think that profanity is seldom justified- It is a tool that dulls quickly when overused. I found p.150 a very appropriate use of profanity.

You, however, assert that profanity is never justified- what appears to be a small difference of opinion. But you cannot have the same reasoning as I do.

Now, since your opinion is "equal" to mine, and I explained mine, would you mind explaining why "Swearing is not justifiable"? Because the only line of reasoning that I can see is 'Somebody said so'. There's nothing immoral or unethical about that line of reasoning, it's just that I lack the mental/social skills to understand it or empathize with someone who is constrained by it.

Jamin
2009-05-25, 10:44 PM
In my opinion using a bad word for art is like using poo to make art sure it is a good use for it but there is always something better to use.

Decius
2009-05-25, 11:20 PM
Nevermind then. If you want to assert that there is such a thing as a bad signifier, then I think the chances of you having an insightful reasoning are vanishingly small. Also, that you changed your viewpoint when asked to clarify indicates that you had not yet challenged it yourself, so you didn't have your own reason in any case.

The fact that 'art' was involved is trivial; as well, there are many great uses for feces. The key issue is that profanity, along with vulgarity, vernacular, slang, and a host of other "pejorative language" is perfectly fine.

In deference to the medium, I'm going to self censor here, even though it confuses my point slightly:

The biggest difference between "I am a PLAYER. F- YOU!" and "I am a player. Your position on the matter is irrelevant." is intensity: The former uses an intensive form of "You don't matter.", while the latter uses a simple descriptive.

Keeping the intensive and superlative forms rare is economy in language: In order for any one thing to be 'exquisite', many lesser things must be 'good', 'great', 'excellent', and so on. If, however, NOTHING can be 'exquisite', then of necessity, the other degrees of intensity lose some precision in meaning.

Jamin
2009-05-26, 12:43 AM
Well okay than. Now I see the error of my ways you guys where right and using your huge space brains your belittled me and my one small voice into seeing the light of day. Thanks for saying that reasoning is so unfounded and that I don't have huge insight the way you all do. Now that I have grown up like you said I see that I was wrong the whole time. what was I thinking taking a word that is supposed to offend people as offensive. I really liked how people said I had to wrong because everyone else was going the other way. What a good truth to live by.
there happy now
Jamin Out

VariaVespasa
2009-05-26, 01:46 AM
I'm sensing.... petulance.... :P

Majutsukai
2009-05-26, 02:21 AM
Here's what's actually happening here.

Jamin states his opinion. Fine, great, more power to you.

A few other people say, "I think you're wrong, and here's why." Fine. Great. Two opinions have been stated.

Jamin responds by saying that this is unfair, and if people disagree, they should only ever do it by saying "I disagree". If they support with why they disagree, then they're devaluing his opinion and saying he isn't allowed to have that opinion.

This isn't a place to go and never have your opinion challenged. It's a discussion thread, and that kind of thinking goes against the entire idea of discussion.

So... no. When somebody says "Here's why I think you're wrong", they're not saying that you're not allowed to have an opinion. They're stating their opinion. And that's what this thread is here for.

DoctorJest
2009-05-26, 02:21 AM
I only read like 40 pages than stopped than saw it was over looked into.

In other words, you didn't even read enough to understand the context of the last page?

Congratulations, I have never seen someone invalidate their own opinion so very effectively in one sentence.

DoctorJest
2009-05-26, 02:23 AM
So... no. When somebody says "Here's why I think you're wrong", they're not saying that you're not allowed to have an opinion. They're stating their opinion. And that's what this thread is here for.

Correction, you're allowed to have an informed opinion.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-26, 02:30 AM
I'm sensing.... petulance.... :P

No kidding, the Scarcasm-o-meter is in the red! :smalleek:


In my opinion using a bad word for art is like using poo to make art sure it is a good use for it but there is always something better to use.

Actually, in this very instance, it was probably the only appropriate thing to do to convey the feeling. The very reason Parson said **** is because of the presence of the censor present in the comic.

He did not said **** to express rage, to talk about sexuality or disapointment. He said **** to be able to beat the very mechanic of the world he lives in. To prove that he was beyond those mechanics.

However, the only mechanics that effectively had an influence on him were... the Censorship, the Loyalty, and the "You will obey the order of Stanley". Now, both of the latter have a very distinct plot favor that might influence the events that will follow, while the Censorship issue is... irrelevant to the plot.

Thus, the ONLY way to show us that Parson could break the rules of the world without having to further the plot in a major way was to violate the profanity filter. There was just no other way around it, if you really want to end Book 1 with: "Parson can be master of his own destiny". Throwing the sword away was slightly ambivalent, we needed to be shown a strong and clear violation of the world's rules.


It's well know French men have no problems with profanity. That's why the English say "Pardon my French".

French-speaking in general (specially Quebecois). But they aren't as liberal with profanity as you might think. And the general French stereotype you might had is more of a "Parisian" reality/stereotype.

Yes, they are a little more liberal than the average Englishman or American on average when it comes to profanity, but you will find prude or Haddock-type on both sides of the language barrier.


Look all I am trying to say is that my opinion is equal to yours not better or worse just the same . But you seem to feel that your world view is right and mine is close-minded. Well maybe mine is but who among you can say that there is not at least one thing you are close-minded about and that is okay

Actually, it is not. Many people's opinion is not equal to other people's, either because of lack of data on the topic, or because of hindering personnal philosophy that simply cloud one's jugement over the argument. You aren't telling your opinion about the comic, you are simply reciting a mantra. There is no value in that, and that is why I disregard what you say as something of a lesser intellectual value as most other people that posted beforehand.

And don't think I say this because your mantra is opposed to my point of view on the topic of the conversation. People who are reciting the mantra "Free speech should never be stopped" are about as intellectually valueless as your statements.

Now, if you came and gave me a good (and not dogmatic) reason why **** You was of bad taste in this comic, I might disagree with you, but your arguments will actually be interesting and of value, and treated with respect by many here (peoples will probably argue against it, but they will not deride what you say as they do now)

I<3Bed
2009-05-26, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Jamin
In my opinion using a bad word for art is like using poo to make art sure it is a good use for it but there is always something better to use.

Actually, I've seen some really interesting skid marks on my underwear that I SWEAR look like Don King.

...

It's creepy.

glissle
2009-05-26, 02:45 AM
To say that vulgarity is offensive is to assert that one is in a class distinct from the common class.

I don't agree with Jamin's position on cussing, but the above is not necessarily true. Many people believe there are turns of phrase that are acceptable in speech but inappropriate in writing. For works of fiction, naturalist dialogue is not the classical Western tradition.

glissle
2009-05-26, 03:01 AM
Actually, in this very instance, it was probably the only appropriate thing to do to convey the feeling. The very reason Parson said **** is because of the presence of the censor present in the comic.


That argument is a bit circular, as it was an authorial decision to set up a profanity censor and have Parson constantly test it in order to set up this moment. To avoid making Parson into a frequent cusser, some other silly linguistic rule could have been imposed by Erfworld. For example, there could have been an automatic spell-check for goblin => gobwin and Parson could have been more stubborn about those names.

I certainly don't object to the last page of Book I, but frankly Book II might be unpleasant if Parson is permanently uncensored and is a major character.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-26, 03:15 AM
I certainly don't object to the last page of Book I, but frankly Book II might be unpleasant if Parson is permanently uncensored and is a major character.

Parson never struct me as somebody who would be a big swearer, to be honest. The only time the profanity filter kicked in was when he was summoned to a new world (with a headache side effect). I don't know how I would react, but I would probably let go my mouth about it.

The few others instances were quite minor, and he was still learning about the world. Usually underlining surprise.

I don't think the writers are going to include cluster profanity bomb in their next book. They effectively seem to accept the fact that the scarity of the bad thing makes it more powerful (a philosophy I tend to strongly agree with). This time, it was a powerful message conveyed.

Yes, the argument is a bit circular, but it worked, didn't it? :smallwink: In the end, they managed to show what they wanted to show.

Twisted Otaku
2009-05-26, 03:53 AM
It's been a long time since I logged on to post, but I wanted to commend the author and illustrator on a job very well done. I remember it got kind of rocky in the middle there but you guys held on to your vision, and it is wonderful ^_^


I eagerly await the next book to start, and until then there's plenty of oots archive to munch on ^_^

Gez
2009-05-26, 04:38 AM
French-speaking in general (specially Quebecois). But they aren't as liberal with profanity as you might think. And the general French stereotype you might had is more of a "Parisian" reality/stereotype.

The :smalltongue: denoted a joke. In my own experience, the worst potty mouths I've heard have invariably been Americans. :smallwink:

The actual etymology of the expression stems from the French Norman conquest of England, which resulted in a society where the educated elite spoke French, and later English with a lot of French words, while the words of Germanic or Norse roots were deemed crude and vulgar because they weren't the words of the elite. Compare "feces" with "sh*t". "Pardon my French" is thus "Pardon my insufficient French, I have to use the vulgar word instead."

Simanos
2009-05-26, 05:05 AM
Look it is fine that you guys think it was a cool swear. More power too you. You feel that swearing is justifiable and I don't. We disagree about how we see page 162. This is a forum for discussing Erfworld. I, Jamin Big huge stick in the mud that I am think Erfworld is offensive and confusing. Others see it as a amazing and well thought out comic. I won't be reading book 2. Others will. Who is right? Everyone is right.
Look all I am trying to say is that my opinion is equal to yours not better or worse just the same . But you seem to feel that your world view is right and mine is close-minded. Well maybe mine is but who among you can say that there is not at least one thing you are close-minded about and that is okay
here come the attacks
Jamin Out
No, everyone is not right. Is NAMBLA's opinion right too? How about Hitler's or Bush's?
Opinions are not right by default. You have to provide rational arguments to support them. I and others already told you that. Did you read it?

BTW, putting "here come the attacks" in white like that is another thing that makes me think you're trolling, persecution complex and self-fulfilled prophecies and all that. You're not that important...

And again, the "frack you" at the end didn't convey the writer's opposition to censorship. It was merely a story element. Parson broke free enough to curse. The writer's opposition to censorship of this (idiotic) kind is shown before it. The curse word isn't needed at all, he could have not said it if he didn't want to. He already has said:

What d'you have against obscenity, anyway?
You're fine with this obscenity.

Killer Angel
2009-05-26, 06:01 AM
When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.

But sometimes, you'll enter in history for swearing, and in a positive way. I know at least two examples: one probably a legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Cambronne), one confirmed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_C._McAuliffe)

Decius
2009-05-26, 02:30 PM
Well okay than. Now I see the error of my ways you guys where right and using your huge space brains your belittled me and my one small voice into seeing the light of day. Thanks for saying that reasoning is so unfounded and that I don't have huge insight the way you all do. Now that I have grown up like you said I see that I was wrong the whole time. what was I thinking taking a word that is supposed to offend people as offensive. I really liked how people said I had to wrong because everyone else was going the other way. What a good truth to live by.
there happy now
Jamin Out
Troll. Don't just accuse everyone of persecuting you. If you want to stop listening to others, don't attack them, stop talking to them.

Spot
2009-05-26, 03:01 PM
When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.

In my opinion, your vision may be narrower than it needs to be on this subject.

It seems to me that you may be so rooted in the lessons that you were taught as a 5-year-old, that you might be unable to comprehend WHY you were taught those lessons when you were 5.

Small children are taught NEVER to use certain words, because those words are bad. They are told this, not because the words are inherantly bad, but because small children only understand simple, direct, and non-complex instructions.

As these small children later grow up to become adults, and become capable of comprehending nuance, subtlety, the use of differing social mores for differing social contexts, most of them will grow to understand that the world is much more complex than the simplistic maxims they were taught as a 5-year-old.

Others, however, will simply remain obediant to their early lessons, foreswearing all subtlety, nuance, and complexity, in favor of the warm and comforting feeling of virtuousness that comes from unquestioning obediance of rules that need never be explained, but must merely be obeyed.

As the latest strip demonstrates, the character of Parson Gotti is *not* one of the latter type of person.

I assume that most readers (as I do) find this to be a virtue of Parson's, rather than a flaw.

glenstorm74
2009-05-26, 03:55 PM
Erfworld has this habit of building up momentum and delivering anti-climatic resolution.


The Ansom Uhnn Tiss dance move
Ansom's Death
The close to the first book


Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him. So instead of realizing the core issue, Parson blames the world and his sword. :smallannoyed:

I'm also dissapointed in all of the loose ends left behind. Transylvito, Vinny, Jillian, Stanley, Wanda, Faq, tid-bits on Parson, etc. Yes, I know many of these loose ends could be lead-ins for the following book. I just hate the felling that I have been left hanging. Do any of you remember the movie V?

That said, I still like the Erfworld universe. The art rocks. I appreciate the efforts made to flesh out the characters. I guess...Erfworld is good, but it stops short of being great for me. I can't put my finger on it.

teratorn
2009-05-26, 04:09 PM
The :smalltongue: denoted a joke. In my own experience, the worst potty mouths I've heard have invariably been Americans. :smallwink:

No, French, at least in the Paris area, are definitely worse. The colloquial use of the F word (and verb) is rampant in France. In the States people never used it with me in regular social situations outside of the drinking buddies kind of thing,

I still remember arriving in France and most of the informal small talk being stuff that would be big cuss words in my corner of the world. Simple things equivalent to "what are you doing", "just dump that in the corner", "it's ruined", "I don't care" and "I'm such an idiot" nearly made blush when my boss (a much older reasonably strict lady) used them. It took me some time not to get sort of shocked when my friends told them to their kids.

Xiander
2009-05-26, 05:24 PM
Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him. So instead of realizing the core issue, Parson blames the world and his sword.

This is actually a rather big assumption on your part.

Parson says to the world you do not control me and throws away a sword that nudges on tendencies that exist within him. This could as you claim be a way of laying the blaame onto the world rather than taking it upon himself, but it might as well be the first step to a complete change of character. I guess wel will have to wait for book two to see. But the point stands: throwing away the sword can symbolise both throwing away the blame that should actually adhere to him, and throwing away the influence the world have on him in orde to rework his ways from the buttom up.

Cruxador
2009-05-26, 07:15 PM
No, French, at least in the Paris area, are definitely worse. The colloquial use of the F word (and verb) is rampant in France. In the States people never used it with me in regular social situations outside of the drinking buddies kind of thing,

I still remember arriving in France and most of the informal small talk being stuff that would be big cuss words in my corner of the world. Simple things equivalent to "what are you doing", "just dump that in the corner", "it's ruined", "I don't care" and "I'm such an idiot" nearly made blush when my boss (a much older reasonably strict lady) used them. It took me some time not to get sort of shocked when my friends told them to their kids.
I might wager a guess that Americans probably didn't talk like normal out of deference to you. Finding certain words offensive is not uncommon in America, and people tend to respect each others sensibilities as much as is conveniently possible. As far as profanity on the streets - it depends where you go. Not using much profanity is often part of what certain subcultures use in an attempt to allevieate other psychological issues. Go to a poor area in LA, see if you don't hear language that would put the Parisians to shame.


Opinions are not right by default.Um, yes they are. That's a pretty big part of the difference between opinion and fact. I agree with your overall point, though.

ishnar
2009-05-26, 08:28 PM
No I don't have a phd in Erfworldology I have an opinion it worth just as much as yours. Why is yours better than mine?

All opinions are not equal; there are different kinds of opinions.

-An ignorant opinion is the least useful opinion.
-An unsupported opinion is only slightly stronger because you are given a little benefit of the doubt.
-A supported opinion is next because it at least shows the person put some thought into it.
-An educated opinion is the first opinion having some value because the opinion is supported by second hand knowledge. In other words, it's the first justified opinion.
-Best of all is an experienced opinion because it reflects first hand knowledge. Consider this a professional opinion.

So in other words, if someone gives an opinion and supports it, you cannot counter that "my opinion is just as valid as yours" if you don't at least meet the same standards of support.

Killer Angel
2009-05-27, 02:05 AM
Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him.

I don't think so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0161.html).
Parson is well aware that he's a monster, and he hate the world for have awaken his inner monster.
He don't like killing, so he destroy the sword (which symbolizes the grip Erfworld had on him), because he wants to regain the control.

Simanos
2009-05-27, 06:14 AM
Um, yes they are. That's a pretty big part of the difference between opinion and fact. I agree with your overall point, though.
What do you mean? Do you mean that opinions are one's right to express them? Or that they seem right to that person?

Jamin
2009-05-27, 10:01 AM
In my opinion, your vision may be narrower than it needs to be on this subject.

It seems to me that you may be so rooted in the lessons that you were taught as a 5-year-old, that you might be unable to comprehend WHY you were taught those lessons when you were 5.

Small children are taught NEVER to use certain words, because those words are bad. They are told this, not because the words are inherantly bad, but because small children only understand simple, direct, and non-complex instructions.

As these small children later grow up to become adults, and become capable of comprehending nuance, subtlety, the use of differing social mores for differing social contexts, most of them will grow to understand that the world is much more complex than the simplistic maxims they were taught as a 5-year-old.

Others, however, will simply remain obediant to their early lessons, foreswearing all subtlety, nuance, and complexity, in favor of the warm and comforting feeling of virtuousness that comes from unquestioning obediance of rules that need never be explained, but must merely be obeyed.

As the latest strip demonstrates, the character of Parson Gotti is *not* one of the latter type of person.

I assume that most readers (as I do) find this to be a virtue of Parson's, rather than a flaw.
This made me laugh. The 5 year Jaimn used cuss words all the time. It was only when I was older that I decided that swearing was wrong.

DrivinAllNight
2009-05-27, 11:37 AM
Parson finally has come to realize he may have the thoughts of a cold blooded murderer, but than again, he does design war games and had thought of a really bad one for his friends, so when the spell brings him in, it nudges those forward, even if he wouldn't have thought of doing them in real life, it is one thing to kill a million people in a game, since in a game there is no real death, and now that he knows the big fight is over, he realizes he is not just playing some game, but that all of his actions have consequences, so now he will no longer let something control him and make him do things he can no longer live with.
How would you feel if you suddenly found out that the old Contra game you played as a kid was real and you killed off thousands of characters in real life, even if it was another dimension of time/space that they were killed in? Parson has come to this same conclusion, and wants to never be a part of the mass slaughter without his express desire, which judging by his own words, he doesn't like the idea killing as he has done.
That is my 2 cents regarding this.

Athanatos
2009-05-27, 12:31 PM
Well okay than. Now I see the error of my ways you guys where right and using your huge space brains your belittled me and my one small voice into seeing the light of day. Thanks for saying that reasoning is so unfounded and that I don't have huge insight the way you all do. Now that I have grown up like you said I see that I was wrong the whole time. what was I thinking taking a word that is supposed to offend people as offensive. I really liked how people said I had to wrong because everyone else was going the other way. What a good truth to live by.
there happy now
Jamin Out

This is the classic "Everyone's entitled to their opinions... as long as they don't conflict with mine" argument.

You gave your opinion, which happened to oppose that of the majority of this forum. And sure, some of the responses were improper. There were the people who just said "loltroll" or "I wanna flame this guy!", and those are undeniably silly men who did a silly thing. But then we have people who are trying to give logical, well-reasoned arguments for why the use of profanity was acceptable here? And what are your responses? They fall into two camps:

1) "Profanity is always wrong, because it is always vulgar. It is vulgar because it is always wrong."
2) "You're persecuting me for having a different opinion. It's my right to have an opinion, don't act like you're better than me!"

Both of these are fallacies, and both completely undermine the entire purpose of a forum. This purpose is discussion, which can sometimes lead into disagreement and debate. In that situation, it should proceed like so:

Person A: I like Position X.
Person B: Well, I prefer Position Y, because of reasons 1, 2, and 3.
Person A: Reasons 1 and 2 don't really hold up because of counter-arguments 4 and 5, and I'd also say reason 6 speaks to the merits of X over Y.

And so forth. People with differing opinions trying to reasonably discuss which side of an argument is better supported by logic and evidence. Sure, there's no guarantee that somebody's opinion will be changed, but each side hopefully comes out understanding the other better, and becomes better at articulating their own positions. You, on the other hand, seem to advocate this:

Person A: I like Position X.
Person B: Well, I prefer Position Y.
Person A: So you do.
Person B: Aye.

What does that do for anyone? Why even have a discussion board at that point, when a simple "X vs. Y" poll would suffice? If providing reasons in favor of the legitimacy of Parson's curse constitutes persecution, and you're unwilling to provide arguments against its legitimacy, why not lock this thread, start up a poll that says "Is the swearing OK?" and delete any posts people make in it?

Be reasonable here. Your persecution argument makes absolutely no sense, and if you're going to stick around in this thread at all, please provide reasons why you think the swearing is unacceptable other than circular logic or truisms, i.e. not simply saying "it's vulgar, it's always vulgar and bad and wrong."

Jamin
2009-05-27, 01:16 PM
Let me make some statements
1st I read erfworld all the way though
2nd I got to the end and then posted on the forum my opinion on the end
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool
4th If you want to write an a comic with a R-rating than write one but at least tell people that there will people melting and some other bizarre stuff in it.
The main reason I disliked that f-bomb was that although I give erfworld about a 5/10 the ending was interesting to me but than they ruin the moment for me by saying look he can cuss now. yay I don't cuss anymore and I never have said the f-bomb (well maybe I have I don't know). I know I can't stop people from cussing but to have that word thrown up at me on a site that I go to mostly so I don't have to see that word made me mad.
So that was me trying to explain.

Athanatos
2009-05-27, 01:47 PM
1st I read erfworld all the way though


I only read like 40 pages than stopped than saw it was over looked into.

what


3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool

Thank you. This is, as far as I'm aware, the first actual point you've made in this thread, and it's great to see it. Obviously the point itself can be debated with, but that's good, because it's the whole point of what we're trying to do here.

Like uh, for example, in that case, doesn't throwing the sword also show that he's still ruled by rage? It's certainly a violent, emotional action (it's certainly not a symbolic laying down of arms, when we look at what else he's doing and saying in the strip), so why is that "kinda cool" while the curse word is "lame"? Both show that he's no longer bound by the rules of Erfworld but is still influenced by his own passions and emotions... so why does one get a free pass?

ishnar
2009-05-27, 02:51 PM
Thank you. This is, as far as I'm aware, the first actual point you've made in this thread, and it's great to see it. Obviously the point itself can be debated with, but that's good, because it's the whole point of what we're trying to do here.

I have to agree. Thank you. It's a good argument--good enough I have to spend some time considering a good response. A flipant argument draws a flippant response. A thoughtful argument requires a thoughtful counter.

Bravo.

SteveMB
2009-05-27, 03:38 PM
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool.

Now that's an interesting point that can lead to meaningful discussion. Simply lashing out against external control makes you every bit as much the controller's puppet as if you simply give in to external control -- the control merely has the opposite polarity, as it were. I think that as the story proceeds, Parson's reactions will be more nuanced than that, but this moment can be seen as a howl of frustration.

PinkysBrain
2009-05-28, 02:59 AM
I'm not ruled by my emotions for showing them ... and that's all curse words are to me, a show of emotion.

Also that's obviously all they were to Parson, he didn't stop cursing from day 1 even if he was censored by the rules of the game world. Hell, wouldn't it be stranger still if in the end he broke all the rules, but still was forced to say boop?

Killer Angel
2009-05-28, 04:10 AM
Like uh, for example, in that case, doesn't throwing the sword also show that he's still ruled by rage? It's certainly a violent, emotional action (it's certainly not a symbolic laying down of arms, when we look at what else he's doing and saying in the strip), so why is that "kinda cool" while the curse word is "lame"? Both show that he's no longer bound by the rules of Erfworld but is still influenced by his own passions and emotions... so why does one get a free pass?


I could debate that throwing away the sword, implies that Parson is in self-control: he knows the value of the item, nevertheless he "accept" to rid free of it, because he wants to think by himself, without a magical compulsion (even if subtle and relatively weak), that stimulates his worst inner self.
While it's only the rage that make him swearing. (well, on this last point, I totally agree on the self-determination PoW, but this is for discussion's sake, right? :smallbiggrin:)

Cruxador
2009-05-28, 07:05 PM
What do you mean? Do you mean that opinions are one's right to express them? Or that they seem right to that person?

I say ice cream is good. This is an opinion. We assume it to be true, and treat it as such. Obviously, if you then say ice cream is bad, we may discuss it with the aim of discovering whose opinion is more valid. But before a contradictory opinion is stated, my opinion was treated as wholly correct. Ergo, right by default.

Facts, by contrast, we assume to be incorrect. Consider, the fact that you can't lick your own elbow. People hearing this the first time will try to lick their elbows. That's because it's a fact, and we assume that any given fact is untrue until proven to be true.

Simons Mith
2009-05-28, 07:23 PM
Now that's an interesting point that can lead to meaningful discussion. Simply lashing out against external control makes you every bit as much the controller's puppet as if you simply give in to external control -- the control merely has the opposite polarity, as it were. I think that as the story proceeds, Parson's reactions will be more nuanced than that, but this moment can be seen as a howl of frustration.

But how else can you test a magical restriction that stops you from swearing than by swearing? It's also entierly possible that only being in a rage gave him the ability to override it. Now he knows he can get round it the presence of the restriction when he's not angry matters far less, even if the boop-shields descend again once he cools off. But he had to swaear, once, either to break the block in the first place, or to confirm that he actually could overcome it.

Half_Moon
2009-05-28, 08:53 PM
Swearing is a part of the world we live in. People often swear in society and that is a fact that is not likely to change.

Something that is so frequently done in society by a large percentage of the population shouldn't be unacceptable in a entertaining webcomic.

BlueWizard
2009-05-28, 09:41 PM
I wish the Erf World Creators well as they venture out on their own.

Simanos
2009-05-29, 10:55 AM
I say ice cream is good. This is an opinion. We assume it to be true, and treat it as such. Obviously, if you then say ice cream is bad, we may discuss it with the aim of discovering whose opinion is more valid. But before a contradictory opinion is stated, my opinion was treated as wholly correct. Ergo, right by default.

Facts, by contrast, we assume to be incorrect. Consider, the fact that you can't lick your own elbow. People hearing this the first time will try to lick their elbows. That's because it's a fact, and we assume that any given fact is untrue until proven to be true.
I see. That's kinda what I thought too. Anyway since we agree on the important stuff I won't waste our time discussing semantics.

BTW, some people can lick their elbow, so it's not a fact. They said so in an episode of Brainiacs and then apologised for their error in a following episode.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-05-29, 12:58 PM
Nice ending.

On the curse word debate, different people are offended by different things. The point at which they become offended differs from yours. There's not much point in debating it because there's not much chance of changing anyone's long held "point at which they become offended" simply by discussing or arguing about it with them. There's also not much point in slamming someone who is more easily offended than you.

I will admit to a bit of confusion about the end on this chapter, though. The sword came deep into the story, and it had already been established by that time that Parson was subject to either or both the compulsions of the summoning spell and they typical Duty and Loyalty which all Erf units are subjected to. "Ruthlessness" was only mentioned when the sword was completed, and it was never either shown or explained as having any influence on Parson's actions. Duty was shown to influence Parson, in the explanation of why he couldn't order the casters into the portal without having them link up and try to uncroak the volcano, and the summoning spell was also shown to be able to compel Parson's actions, right from the start.

Then Ruthlessness gets discussed in the penultimate strip, and Parson starts off asking about Thinkamancy and the summoning spell, but then segues into Ruthlessness and the sword is prominently featured in the next 3 panels as Parson fiddles with it, half drawing it, etc.

When he asked Maggy to explain how Ruthlessness worked on him and rolling it up with Thinkamancy I was left wondering why they were discussing Ruthlessness instead of Duty or the summoning spell, as Ruthlessness had never been described as being a game mechanic previously.

And then he throws away the sword, as if that was freeing him up somehow, and indeed we see him break out from the control of the censor. But freeing him up from what? From the latecomer Ruthlessness, perhaps, and from the censor, once at least and perhaps permanently (especially with the comic changing venue) but what of the summoning spell, and what of Duty?

This seemed odd to me, and I just do not understand why the focus on Ruthlessness is supposed to be such a powerful expression of individuality with these other controlling factors still present. And they are still present, or Parson wouldn't still be on Erfworld.

Dr. Roboto
2009-05-29, 02:18 PM
Nice ending.

On the curse word debate, different people are offended by different things. The point at which they become offended differs from yours. There's not much point in debating it because there's not much chance of changing anyone's long held "point at which they become offended" simply by discussing or arguing about it with them. There's also not much point in slamming someone who is more easily offended than you.

I will admit to a bit of confusion about the end on this chapter, though. The sword came deep into the story, and it had already been established by that time that Parson was subject to either or both the compulsions of the summoning spell and they typical Duty and Loyalty which all Erf units are subjected to. "Ruthlessness" was only mentioned when the sword was completed, and it was never either shown or explained as having any influence on Parson's actions. Duty was shown to influence Parson, in the explanation of why he couldn't order the casters into the portal without having them link up and try to uncroak the volcano, and the summoning spell was also shown to be able to compel Parson's actions, right from the start.

Then Ruthlessness gets discussed in the penultimate strip, and Parson starts off asking about Thinkamancy and the summoning spell, but then segues into Ruthlessness and the sword is prominently featured in the next 3 panels as Parson fiddles with it, half drawing it, etc.

When he asked Maggy to explain how Ruthlessness worked on him and rolling it up with Thinkamancy I was left wondering why they were discussing Ruthlessness instead of Duty or the summoning spell, as Ruthlessness had never been described as being a game mechanic previously.

And then he throws away the sword, as if that was freeing him up somehow, and indeed we see him break out from the control of the censor. But freeing him up from what? From the latecomer Ruthlessness, perhaps, and from the censor, once at least and perhaps permanently (especially with the comic changing venue) but what of the summoning spell, and what of Duty?

This seemed odd to me, and I just do not understand why the focus on Ruthlessness is supposed to be such a powerful expression of individuality with these other controlling factors still present. And they are still present, or Parson wouldn't still be on Erfworld.

I think he's talking about the philosophical side of ruthlessness, not as a game mechanic, but as a part of his personality. I think.

Athanatos
2009-05-29, 02:45 PM
I could debate that throwing away the sword, implies that Parson is in self-control: he knows the value of the item, nevertheless he "accept" to rid free of it, because he wants to think by himself, without a magical compulsion (even if subtle and relatively weak), that stimulates his worst inner self.
While it's only the rage that make him swearing. (well, on this last point, I totally agree on the self-determination PoW, but this is for discussion's sake, right? :smallbiggrin:)

Ah, but violently throwing something is often a sign of rage, and the swear word could also be a calculated, non-raging method of showing that he's free of control. After all, if his intent is to display his freedom from Erfworld's systems, swearing is a way that he can accomplish easily and doesn't involve any violent action. He says it loudly because he wants "Erfworld" to hear him.

See? This is all based on assumptions of "this action is obviously emotional, this one obviously isn't", which may very well be true, but are not necessarily true.

Spot
2009-05-29, 04:53 PM
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool


Interesting point.

Personally, the throwing of the sword shocked me much much more than Parson's swearing.

Perhaps other people might react in a different fashion, but... for me... seeing Parson throw away the sword almost triggered an involutary "what are you doing???!!" from me while reading the story, while the use of the word **** hardly registered at first, since I'm so used to already substituting **** whenever I see "boop".

Because, he's been trying to get around the Erfworld word filter since he first arrived... but to actually THROW AWAY an object of usefullness and value within a wargame where it might be needed, probably went against every principle that Parson has as a war-gamer.

So, from my perspective (also being a war-gamer), it was the throwing away of the sword that broke Erfworld's hold on him, with the subsequent breaking-down of Erfworld's word-filter for that one instance, simply being an outward manifestation of how shocking the sword-throwing as an act was.

Killer Angel
2009-05-30, 03:32 AM
See? This is all based on assumptions of "this action is obviously emotional, this one obviously isn't", which may very well be true, but are not necessarily true.

I like your way of thinking.. :smallbiggrin:
Yes, with the words we try to support our PoW and so, basing on our assumptions, we can support different reasonings on the same argument.
Which is exactly the point in having a forum!

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-30, 10:44 AM
I don't buy the "not in control" and "driven by rage". Maybe Parson was angry, maybe he had powerful emotions flowing trough him..

But I think the whole final comic was him being in complete moment of purpose. It was Him Vs The World. Parson Vs The Rules. He had to put all his focus into that moment, when he shattered what existed in the world of Erfworld...

It makes a complete difference between someone who "let loose" a swear word because he has been angered, injured or surprised. These swearwords are usually involountary, and I agree that they are rarely needed.

But this time, it wasn't an accidental swearword. If anything else, I don't think there have been a swearword more intentional than this one. And that's what makes it powerful.

glenstorm74
2009-05-31, 12:42 AM
Yes, destroying the sword could symbolize Parson's desire to change. He wants to shake free from the bondage Erfworld has placed on him.

However, he also just destroyed a powerful tool that could help him bring peace to both Erfworld and himself.

The sword only nudges foward things you already want to do. Parson would have been better served by focusing his attention inward. It can't nudge foward what isn't there.

blackbird71
2009-06-02, 12:31 PM
I don't buy the "not in control" and "driven by rage". Maybe Parson was angry, maybe he had powerful emotions flowing trough him..

But I think the whole final comic was him being in complete moment of purpose. It was Him Vs The World. Parson Vs The Rules. He had to put all his focus into that moment, when he shattered what existed in the world of Erfworld...

It makes a complete difference between someone who "let loose" a swear word because he has been angered, injured or surprised. These swearwords are usually involountary, and I agree that they are rarely needed.

But this time, it wasn't an accidental swearword. If anything else, I don't think there have been a swearword more intentional than this one. And that's what makes it powerful.

(Okay, I'm a little late to the party, that's what I get for only reading once a week)

Actaully, I'm much more inclined to forgive a curse let out accidentally on impulse than one given directly and intentionally. While it's definetely "rarely needed," an accidental curse is not given with the same intent. An intentional use of such a word is more calculated to be offensive, and it is the intent behind the use that perverts an otherwise legitimate word and turns it into a "swear word." That's probably why I tend to be more offended by such words in print (like this comic) then when dropped in conversation, because it had to be put there intentionally and with forethought and decision. It means someone is actively trying to cause offense.

However, my problem with this comic has nothing to do with the level of offense I may have taken at the use of the word, but rather with the violation of the rules of the website. I know Rich gave his justification/explanation for this, and I know there are all manner of arguments in favor of "artistic" use of foul language (which frankly, more often than not tend to be half-done excuses to be vulgar rather than true artistic expression), but the fact of the matter remains that the established rules were broken, and an exception was made. This sets the precedent that the rules here may be suspended without warning, and it means that this is no longer a safe site. I can no longer browse it on my break at work, I can't read it at home where family is present, because now I never know if the site is going to open up with something "unsafe" emblazoned across the page.

The thing is, this all could have been easily avoided. There could have been a warning included with the link. The final page could have consisted of a link to the new Erfworld site. But instead, it was put up like any other page, with no warning or disclaimer of the content.

The bottom line is, Rich has shown he is willing to bend or ignore the rules laid down on his site without warning, and that means I can no longer trust the content on this site. Truthfully, that loss of trust is the greater offense to me, and because of it, I won't be returning.

So I bid a regretful farewell to the Order of the Stick and the Giant in the Playground. It was fun while it lasted, and I'm sorry it had to end this way. Best of luck.

-Blackbird71

Jamin
2009-06-02, 12:58 PM
I too feel betrayed which is why I posted in the 1st place. I have always liked the rules this forum has and I really did not think that I would have to see that word on this site ever. Than I read the comments and felt even more betrayed that Rich would support breaking the rules.