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Sundog
2006-07-18, 05:20 PM
Just been thinking Roman a little. Any comments appreciated.

Veteran Legionnaire PRC

Requirements:

BAB: +5

Feats: Phalanx Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting

Skills: Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, 2 Ranks

Hit Dice: D10


Level:
. Bab Fort Ref Will
Level 1: Scutum Mastery+1 +1 +2 +0 +2

Level 2: Fighter Bonus Feat +2 +3 +0 +3

Level 3: Scutum Finesse +3 +3 +1 +3

Level 4: Weap Spec: Gladius +4 +4 +1 +4

Level 5: Scutum Mastery +2 +5 +4 +1 +4

Skills: 4+Int Bonus

Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Ride, Profession, Spot, Swim

Scutum Mastery(EX): At first level the Veteran Legionnaire learns to use the large size of the Scutum to get a plus one bonus to attack rolls using the Scutum (large shield). This bonus increases to plus two at level five. These bonuses may only be applied if also using a light piercing weapon.

Fighter Bonus Feat(EX): As the Fighter class ability of the same name.

Scutum Finesse(EX): At third level the Veteran Legionnaire has become so comfortable with the Scutum that he is able to treat it as a light weapon.

Weapon Specialization: Gladius(EX): At fourth level, the Veteran Legionnaire gains the benefit of the Fighter class ability Weapon Specialization with the Gladius. He does not need the usual prerequisites for this feat.


As an aside, how do you make this board do tabs?

Fax Celestis
2006-07-18, 05:21 PM
Try using the {table] tags.

Interesting idea, but it seems weak.

Hurlbut
2006-07-18, 05:51 PM
Fighter Bonus Feat(EX): As the Fighter class ability of the same name. take that out. Just put in bonus feat. Like Scout, list certain feats that will add to the flavor of a roman style legionnaire like endurance (long march, able to keep fighting long), shield ward (shield bonus to touch ac), and so on. I would increase the rank in Engineering to 5. It would fall under the skill Craft right? So you would be looking at Craft (Engineering).

Hurlbut
2006-07-18, 08:12 PM
Lemme see; Agile Shield fighter should be included to the bonus feat list as well. Of course to get the Shield Ward and Agile Shield figher you need first the Shield specialization which increase your shield bonus by +1.

Sundog
2006-07-19, 12:21 PM
Thanks, guys. I'll consider this for a bit then post the modified version.

Matthew
2006-07-31, 10:59 AM
One problem I have with this PrC is the 'Two Weapon Fighting' Feat requirement; this necessitates too high a Dexterity (15) for my liking. Also, perhaps 'Bull Rush' and Javelin Throwing should have some impact?

Does the Legionary need Weapon Focus: Gladius to benefit from Weapon Specialisation: Gladius? If so, it ought probably to be a requirement to enter.

What kind of PCs would take this PrC?

Human Fighter 5?
Level One ~ 3 Feats
Level Two ~ 1 Feat
Level Three ~ 1 Feat
Level Four ~ 1 Feat
Level Five ~ No Feats

Total 6 Feats, three of which have been expended to qualify (four if you need Weapon Focus). Chances are this PC took Weapon Specialisation: Gladius at Level 4. Is this the kind of progression you have in mind? It would be a lot more attractive if the BAB to qualify was +4 or less.

*Thinking*

Okay, let's see...

Pilum, Scutum and Gladius are the weapons of our prospective Legionary. At Level One he has three Feats to spend; one of them is probably going to be Weapon Focus: Gladius. Any suggestions for the others?

Level 1 WF: Gladius
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4 WS: Gladius

If the Scutum is the primary weapon, the Gladius becomes the Light off Hand Weapon for the purposes of TWF. I would like to see TWF become a benefit of joining this PrC without Dexterity requirement. This would probably necessitate lowering the BAB requirement, but I think this would be no bad thing. How about BAB +3 and drop the requirement of TWF? Then we would see:

Fighter 1 ~ WF: Gladius, [2 Feats]
Fighter 2 ~ [1 Feat]
Fighter 3 ~ [1 Feat]
Veteran Legionary 1 ~ TWF (No Dex requirement)
Veteran Legionary 2 ~ WS: Gladius
Veteran Legionary 3 ~ ITWF (No Dex requirement)
Veteran Legionary 4 ~ [1 Feat]
Veteran Legionary 5 ~ [1 Feat]

Now, where would the Pilum fit in? A work in progress, any thoughts?

Premier
2006-07-31, 01:38 PM
Why Two-Weapon Fighting as a requirement? Legionnaires are carrying around big honking shields all the time, they'd need three arms to wield two weapons at the same time in addition to that!

Thomas
2006-07-31, 01:43 PM
Agile Shield Fighter makes more sense than TWF. It requires Shield Specialization, which fits fine, and both are from the PHB2.

Matthew
2006-07-31, 03:38 PM
Why Two-Weapon Fighting as a requirement? Legionnaires are carrying around big honking shields all the time, they'd need three arms to wield two weapons at the same time in addition to that!

For Shield Fighting before the PHBII.


Thomas

Does Agile Shield Fighter do the same thing for Shields as TWF? i.e. does our Legionary with Agile Shield Fighter use his Shield or Sword as his primary weapon? (assuming he wants to take minimum AB penalties). I ask because Agile Shield Fighter has no 'Improved' progression, so if the Legionary leads with his Shield to benefit from the Gladius as his Offhand Light Weapon, he might get multiple blows with his Shield, but only one with his Gladius. If this is the case, then TWF and ITWF without the Dex requirement remain the way to go, though Shield Specialisation is pretty much a must have...

Telonius
2006-07-31, 03:53 PM
Maybe put in Endurance as a bonus feat in there somewhere. I know the legions were able to move incredible distances in short periods of time (might have had some help from the roads).

Matthew
2006-07-31, 03:59 PM
Hurlbut mentioned that. Probably a good idea, but should it be part of the PrC or just left up to the individual?

[Actually, shouldn't this thread be in the Homebrew section?]

Rigeld2
2006-07-31, 04:15 PM
Scutum Finesse(EX): At third level the Veteran Legionnaire has become so comfortable with the Scutum that he is able to treat it as a light weapon.

Add the words "when favorable" to that... otherwise you take away the ability to use Power Attack. And thats rarely/never worth it.

Sundog
2006-07-31, 05:01 PM
Add the words "when favorable" to that... otherwise you take away the ability to use Power Attack. And thats rarely/never worth it.


Good point...though I'd have thought that was implied (as it says "is able", not "must").

Oh, and I don't have PHB II. The Weapon Spec does NOT require a previous weapon focus, which is why it is not a requirement for the class.

Matthew
2006-07-31, 05:11 PM
Indeed, niether do I own a copy of the PHB II. So, you're going along the TWF route, then? Is a Dexterity of 15+ going to remain a prerequisite of this class? Seems high for even a Veteran Roman Legionary to me... I suppose one could argue that Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting might make for a good Roman Legionary Gladius and Shield build, but I would have thought Dexterity would be subordinated to Strength and Constitution? If so, then are we to assume minimum stats for a veteran Roman Legionary of Strength 15, Dexterity 15 and Constitution 15? That pretty much rules out your average NPC Adventurer, I think, which would be sad...

Ooops. Missed that bit about WF: Gladius. Still, Level Nine seems quite late on to acquire WS: Gladius; is there an alternative if the character has already acquired the Feat?

What do you think of the possibility of the Legionary leading with his Shield and using his Gladius as his Light Offhand Weapon? Would that affect the usefulness of Scutum Finesse?

Following on from this, I was thinking Scutum Mastery might work better (conceptually) if it granted a +1 / +2 to a single attack with a Gladius following a successful Shield Bash (reflecting the conjectured Roman tactic of using the Scutum to first unbalance his foe before striking with his Gladius).

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/mil_roman_soldier_shield.htm

Also, it might be nice if the Veteran Legionary PrC was in some way connected / linked to the Centurion PrC...
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11543021 53;start=0

Sundog
2006-08-01, 02:21 PM
Mm, that's an interesting one, I haven't noticed that one before.

I think I'm definitely going to have to do a re-think. Probably drop the TWF requirement, maybe put it in as a class feature, reduce the BAB requirement to 4. It's supposed to be something anybody who survives long enough could get, not just the super-agiles.