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Kekken
2009-05-25, 02:00 AM
Do the small races (halflings, gnomes, etc), treat versatile weapons as two-handed weapons for the purpose of things like Power Attack, or still as a one handed weapon?

I ask because I'm wanting to make a halfling barbarian, but 3 out of four of the barbarian at-wills state they can only be used as with two-handed weapons.

NecroRebel
2009-05-25, 02:06 AM
Yes.


BEING SMALL
Small characters follow most of the same rules as Medium
ones, with the following exceptions.
✦ You canít use two-handed weapons (page 215), such as
greatswords and halberds.
✦ When you use a versatile weapon (page 217), such as a
longsword, you must use it two-handed, but you donít
deal additional damage for doing so.

From PHB p. 44.

Edit: Actually, that might not quite answer your question. The answer is still yes, because any weapon you wield in two hands is, by definition, a two-handed weapon. Essentially, if you're wielding a weapon in two hands (which normally only two-handed and versatile weapons can be), it's a two-handed weapon.

Kylarra
2009-05-25, 02:07 AM
It's a two-handed weapon for small characters.

Kekken
2009-05-25, 02:38 AM
The answer is still yes, because any weapon you wield in two hands is, by definition, a two-handed weapon. Essentially, if you're wielding a weapon in two hands (which normally only two-handed and versatile weapons can be), it's a two-handed weapon.

This than leads to another question: If a human is wielding a longsword in two hands, and power attacks, does he get +2 damage or +3 (i.e. does he use the one handed table (for a one handed weapon wielded in two hands?) or the two handed table?

Quietus
2009-05-25, 02:39 AM
This than leads to another question: If a human is wielding a longsword in two hands, and power attacks, does he get +2 damage or +3 (i.e. does he use the one handed table (for a one handed weapon wielded in two hands?) or the two handed table?

I've always ruled two handed.

NecroRebel
2009-05-25, 02:48 AM
This than leads to another question: If a human is wielding a longsword in two hands, and power attacks, does he get +2 damage or +3 (i.e. does he use the one handed table (for a one handed weapon wielded in two hands?) or the two handed table?

Agreed with Quietus; it's wielded in two hands, thus it's a two-handed weapon.

Kekken
2009-05-25, 03:02 AM
I've always ruled two handed.

Then I have to wonder if its even worth welding many two handed weapons. A human wielding a longsword instead of a greatsword in two hands does only 1 less damage max (9 instead of 10), but has a higher minimum (2 instead of 1), and probably average. And, he has the ability to switch back to one handed at anytime for whatever reason (hanging from a cliff, for example).

I thought one of the main the benefits of two-handed weapons (i.e. those weapons listed as two-handed in the PHB) was that the great weapon fighter bonus applied, and that one could use the better damage bonus for Power Attack.

Dhavaer
2009-05-25, 04:32 AM
Then I have to wonder if its even worth welding many two handed weapons. A human wielding a longsword instead of a greatsword in two hands does only 1 less damage max (9 instead of 10), but has a higher minimum (2 instead of 1), and probably average. And, he has the ability to switch back to one handed at anytime for whatever reason (hanging from a cliff, for example).

I thought one of the main the benefits of two-handed weapons (i.e. those weapons listed as two-handed in the PHB) was that the great weapon fighter bonus applied, and that one could use the better damage bonus for Power Attack.

They only have the same average and higher minimum as long as it's a 1[W] attack. The versatile bonus doesn't increase for more [W]s, but the two-hander's higher damage does benefit.

Ashes
2009-05-25, 10:41 AM
In the Character Creator, it says:
A Small character such as a halfling must use a versatile weapon two-handed and doesn't deal extra damage.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-25, 10:50 AM
I thought one of the main the benefits of two-handed weapons (i.e. those weapons listed as two-handed in the PHB) was that the great weapon fighter bonus applied, and that one could use the better damage bonus for Power Attack.

What Dhavaer said. And I think that Great Weapon Fighter works with versatile weapons held in two hands, too.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 11:15 AM
:smalleek: Oh noes! The gnome barbarian complaint form the WotC forums comes here!

Run for the hills!

I am of two minds on this.

Versatile states it is used with two-hands but does not make it a two-handed weapon. So yes.

Other side says, 4th edition keywords everything, and I see nothing keyworded as a two-handed weapon. Since no two-handed weapon exists then nobody can use a two-handed weapon.

Previous editions stated which weapons required two hands to use. Maybe it is not in the PHB or I missed it in the weapon description about any being two-handed.

With current wordings of the books as-is, I would say that small races don't gain anything from something requiring a two-handed weapon. They may be able to use some weapons with two-hands, but it really doesn't count until things are given the proper keyword as to identify which property they are standardly for all the races concerned.

Which weapons are considered two-handed? Great Axe? Surely not a dart because you use both hands with it, that is likely to be worse than just with one handed use.

Asbestos
2009-05-25, 12:18 PM
I'm in agreement with anyone saying 'something you wield with two hands is two-handed'. One-handed non-versatile things are not worth mentioning. However, there is a 5th, rules legal, Barbarian at-will.
Here it is, it can be found in the Character Builder, Compendium, or an overpriced box of Minis.

Foe to Foe
At-Will Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. If you have reduced at least one non-minion enemy to 0 hit points during this encounter, this attack deals 1d8 extra damage. While raging, you instead deal 1d10 extra damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.


Doesn't have that 'two-handed weapon' clause and can lay out a fair amount of damage. Sadly, it can not be used on a charge.

Artanis
2009-05-25, 01:05 PM
*looks at the rules*

*looks at the rules again*

It looks to me like RAW could easily go either way, and RAI seems to lean towards two-handed wielding = two-handed weapon, but not conclusively so. So like many other people, I'd go with two-handed wielding = two-handed weapon (i.e. "yes" to the OP's question) because of what Dhavaer pointed out: it's still less damage than a "real" two-handed weapon. The intent seems to be 2H > versatile in 2 hands > 1H damage-wise, and treating a two-handed-wielded versatile weapon as an official two-hander doesn't change that hierarchy.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 01:24 PM
Wielding a weapon with two hands, does not make it a two-handed weapon.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18651127#post18651127

Artanis
2009-05-25, 01:32 PM
You're going by a response from Customer Service? The same Customer Service that's notorious for contradicting itself?

shadzar
2009-05-25, 01:41 PM
You're going by a response from Customer Service? The same Customer Service that's notorious for contradicting itself?

Customer Service is core!!!!!!

I don't trust WotC if my life depended on it, but was relaying an answer that may or may not be accepted form a semi-official source.

Use that answer as you will, but CS was the ones that compiled the last errata IIRC, and then someone else just looked it over prior to putting it online.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-25, 06:54 PM
Two handed weapons are specified as such by being in a seperate table in the equipment sections, I believe, rather than keywords. Much like whether they are simple, martial, or supirior weaponry.

By RAW and Customer-Service style RAI, a Halfling, Gnome, etc, cannot benefit from the barbarian at wills, because they cannot weild any two handed weapons at all. (In the future, it's possible that they may be able to, because a weapon with the Small quality, two handed or otherwise, can be used pretty much as normal by a small race. See Short-bow.)

Personally, I proposed a house-rule for my group;

Quick and simple addition;
Original Version -
Versatile (Versatile weapons are one-handed, but you can use them two-handed. If you do, you deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for the weapon.
A Small character such as a halfling must use a versatile weapon two-handed, and doesnít deal extra damage.).

New Version -
Versatile (Versatile weapons are one-handed, but you can use them two-handed. If you do, you deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for the weapon.
A Small character such as a halfling treats a versatile weapon as a Two-Handed weapon, and doesnít deal extra damage.
If the weapon also has the 'Small' property however, it is treated as a if the small-character was instead medium, and may be weilded in either one or two hands as per the above).
See also Property - Small

Small (This property describes a two-handed or a versatile weapon that a Small character can use in the same way a Medium character can. A halfling can use a shortbow, for example, even though halflings canít normally use two-handed weapons.).

They do not gain the ability to use any new weapons in any way, this only effects feats and pre-requisites for powers.

A halfling could already spend a feat and weild a Bastard-sword with proficiency, effectively gaining a halfling-greatsword. it still counted as one handed, however, so some classes were basically entirely off-limits, despite in that situation the halfing having a weapon identical to the greatsword for all purposes.

TheOOB
2009-05-25, 08:06 PM
Customer Service is core!!!!!!

Wrong, core is the material in the core rulebooks. Customer Service and FAQs are not RAW, aside from the books only errata is.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 08:27 PM
Wrong, core is the material in the core rulebooks. Customer Service and FAQs are not RAW, aside from the books only errata is.

:smallfrown: ~rolls a -1 on his humor skill check~

Burley
2009-05-26, 06:56 AM
I find it a little... "Meh" to assume that a small race can't be a barbarian. I've always assumed that, for small races, versatile weapons transport themselves onto a special little (pun intended) two-handed table. That way, no extra damage, and not complaining about any rules being un-fair. Otherwise, a halfling fighter's Weapon Talent would apply to every weapon he can wield. It really doesn't matter. There's no extra damage, but it shuts down a lot of extra options. But... maybe I'm just crazy.
Still, give your Gnome Barbarian a khopesh and call it a day.

Ashes
2009-05-26, 06:27 PM
Wrong, core is the material in the core rulebooks. Customer Service and FAQs are not RAW, aside from the books only errata is.

Wrong. In 4E, basically everything is core. Including Web Enhancements and Dragon Mag.

shadzar
2009-05-26, 06:42 PM
Wrong. In 4E, basically everything is core. Including Web Enhancements and Dragon Mag.

And Dungeon....everything except for campaign specific material is "core".


[ontopic]

I think AV actual states something about two-handed weapons and small critters in regards to double weapons or something as I was told.

Paraphrased.

"It must be a small weapon for a small race to use two-handed."

Don't know if that helps, but maybe someone with the book could check to see if it has to do anything with versatile weapons of what other than those listed as two-handed weapons can make use for small races as barbarians.