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Barbarian MD
2009-05-25, 08:18 PM
So I'm currently building a 21st level monk for the epic campaign that's recruiting on the boards, and I've never played a monk before.

My question is: his unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons and whatnot for damage reduction purposes, but what are some ways to actually improve his attacks as though they were magic.

It's been approved by the DM to purchase a permanencied "+5 Greater Magic Fang", but I'm looking for other ways to do it.

Feats?
Magic items?

I'm also looking for ways to treat him as a larger size than he is (Medium-sized), because the damage die for a large monk is just so much better than for a medium.

Thanks!

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 08:21 PM
Sources?

Depending on your lactose tolerance, Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD) is the obvious first choice.

Barbarian MD
2009-05-25, 08:23 PM
I think any source is allowed, but certain things are being nerfed. So I'll take anything you've got and present it to the DM.

What's RotD? All I've got is Realmshelp at this point.

arkol
2009-05-25, 08:25 PM
Races of Destiny

Zergrusheddie
2009-05-25, 08:26 PM
Greater Mighty Wallop is Races of the Dragon. It increases the damage you do with a blunt attack by 1 size category/4 Caster levels if I recall correctly.

There is no real reason to go past level 15 Monk because of a Monk's Belt. If you are allowed to stack Superior Unarmored Strike, than you can get by on 11 Monk levels. Monk doesn't grant that many other bonuses. I played a Monk11/Cleric9 in a one-shot campaign and had massive fun. With Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Greater Mighty Wallop (CL12) as buffs with Improved Natural Attack, I hit for 16d8 at a BAB of +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5. I will say that Damage Reduction was really annoying to get through because my damage came from dice and not pluses like a 2-handed Fighter. I couldn't roll that many dice to attack, so I just did averages at 75 per hit. Was fairly brutal.

I used this chart (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Natural_Attack) to figure out what my damage should be.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-25, 08:27 PM
If you swap out 10 levels of monk for 10 levels of Kensai you can turn your unarmed strike into a +10 weapon.

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 08:27 PM
Improved Natural Attack from the MM 1 works. Since your UAS is considered both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon, you qualify at level 6 when you have a BAB of +4 or higher. That ups you 1 size. You can only take it once per natural weapon though.

The spell Greater Mighty Wallop in the book Races of the Dragon increases the damage of a bludgeoning weapon by 1 size catagory per 4 caster levels. So...CL20 would net you +5 size bumps, to a maximum of Colossal. INA from there would make you Colossal+, since you can apply them in the order that is most beneficial.

Everything else requires that you multiclass out. Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion increases your die size by 2 bumps in 3 levels. Warshaper does too, but you have to be able to change forms. If you are a Changeling (Ebberon Campaign Setting), then you would always get the benefits.

If you really want to go all out, make your character a Monk2/PsychicWarrior19. Then nab the feat Tashalatora from the book Secrets of Sarlona. It allows you to stack Monk + any Psionic class to determine your UAS damage, your Flurry of Blows progression, and your AC bonus. Thus, you lose out on all of your normal Monk abilities except those, but you gain a whole ton of WAY useful PsyWar abilities like Psionic Lion's Charge for Pounce, Psionic Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Displacement, and of cource...Expansion. Manifesting Augemented Expansion will boost your base size up to Huge. INA from there boosts your damage to Gargantuan, and things just get good from there. The increased size will automatically make you a very good grappler too, if you take that feat. Its a pretty solid build by any right.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-25, 08:27 PM
If you swap out 10 levels of monk for 10 levels of Kensai you can turn your unarmed strike into a +10 weapon.

I was about to suggest kensai.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 08:30 PM
What's RotD? All I've got is Realmshelp at this point.
Races of the Dragon.

Greater Mighty Wallop is an absolutely ridiculous spell there that adds the CL of its caster/4 size categories to your bludgeoning damage.

Buy the Wizard a Pearl of Power III and milk it for all its worth, if that's what you're going for.

Otherwise, Expansion and Polymorph effects will do it.
And the obvious feats: Improved Natural Attack (DMG) and Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) will add a size category each.

Faleldir
2009-05-25, 08:33 PM
Warshaper does too, but you have to be able to change forms.
there are some Monk prestige classes in Dragon Magazine #319 with animal forms, but I don't know how powerful they are.

EarFall
2009-05-25, 08:39 PM
I am aware it is not RAW so PLEASE spare me the inevitable crapstorm.
Ask your DM if he'll let a Golaith's Powerful Build let you count as large for your unarmed strike. No, it is not RAW. I am aware.

Barbarian MD
2009-05-25, 08:39 PM
Wow, thanks everyone for the quick response!

To give some more info (sorry I didn't do this before), I'd like to stay pure-monk all the way.

Improved Natural Attack requires natural armor. Best way to go about it?

Also, don't have Tome of Battle. Could you tell me if there are there any pre-reqs for Superior Unarmed Strike?

Oh, and a monk's belt won't work, because unarmed damage doesn't increase after level 20.

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 08:44 PM
Improved Natural Attack requires natural armor. Best way to go about it?

You sure? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack)



Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.




Also, don't have Tome of Battle. Could you tell me if there are there any pre-reqs for Superior Unarmed Strike?

It won't help you either. It does almost the same as a Monk's Belt.

EarFall
2009-05-25, 08:50 PM
Wow, thanks everyone for the quick response!

To give some more info (sorry I didn't do this before), I'd like to stay pure-monk all the way.

Improved Natural Attack requires natural armor. Best way to go about it?

Also, don't have Tome of Battle. Could you tell me if there are there any pre-reqs for Superior Unarmed Strike?

Oh, and a monk's belt won't work, because unarmed damage doesn't increase after level 20.

That's an error in one of the books, can't remember which. But everytime it's been reprinted in ANY source, including SRD, natural ATTACK is the pre req, not natural armor.

Barbarian MD
2009-05-25, 08:56 PM
Thanks! That helps a lot. I'll definitely be taking it.

Now I just have to find a way to compete with an attack roll of +40...

D Knight
2009-05-25, 09:06 PM
comp divine has an magic item called gauntlets of the talon but you need to worship bahamut, have the true believer feat and 7 hit die. on the up side it stacks with monk's belt and add another effective 5 monk lv to you. so at lv 7 you would be treated as a monk of lv 19 for damage in addition all damage is now counted as slashing, armor class, ki strike abilities, and the gauntlets fuction as ghost touch weapons and give a +4 bonus to grapple.

unarmed damage should increase after level 20 it follows a pattern so find it and repeat it. the basic pattern is 1:4, so at level 25 you should be doing like 4d6 or something like that or you could check the DMG or epic handbook

woodenbandman
2009-05-25, 09:16 PM
I think that you should not take Monk to 20th level. Take 2 levels at the very utmost, and then take Psychic Warrior 18 and Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlonna, I believe). Psychic Warrior Expansion, add in some Claws of the Beast, Improved Natural Attack, Maybe a bit of greater mighty wallop, and BANG instant good build. Plus, you've devoted, what, a tenth of your resources to being good at unarmed damage? Focus on something else cool, like Grappling or Stunning Fist.

EDIT:

Tashalatora
Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 1 / Monk +1 / Psychic Warrior +17

d8 HD
3+Int skills, Monk list + Autohypnosis, Knowledge (psionics), Search

1 +0 +2 +2 +2 - - Monk Feat, Flurry Unarmed Strike (1d6), AC Bonus (+0)
2 +1 +3 +2 +2 0 1 1st Bonus Feat
3 +2 +5 +3 +3 0 1 Monk Feat, Evasion
4 +3 +6 +3 +3 1 2 Bonus Feat, Unarmed Strike (1d8)
5 +3 +6 +4 +4 3 3 AC Bonus (+1)
6 +4 +7 +4 +4 5 4 2nd
7 +5 +7 +4 +4 7 5 Bonus Feat, Unarmed Strike (1d10)
8 +6 +8 +5 +5 11 6
9 +6 +8 +5 +5 15 7 3rd
10 +7 +9 +5 +5 19 8 Bonus Feat, AC Bonus (+2)
11 +8 +9 +6 +6 23 9
12 +9 +10 +6 +6 27 10 4th Unarmed Strike (2d6)
13 +9 +10 +6 +6 35 11 Bonus Feat
14 +10 +11 +7 +7 43 12
15 +11 +11 +7 +7 51 13 5th AC Bonus (+3)
16 +12 +12 +7 +7 59 14 Bonus Feat, Unarmed Strike (2d8)
17 +12 +12 +8 +8 67 15
18 +13 +13 +8 +8 79 16 6th
19 +14 +13 +8 +8 91 17 Bonus Feat
20 +15 +14 +9 +9 103 18 Unarmed Strike (2d10), AC Bonus (+4)

There's the progression. Full unarmed strike damage. The numbers are, left to right, level, BAB, Fort save, Ref Save, Will Save, Power Points/day, Powers known, and sometimes Max level of power known.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-25, 09:36 PM
You left out the requirements for Tashalatora. He needs to be at least 5th level before he can take it, so his build has to be Monk 2/PsiWar 3.

Dogmantra
2009-05-25, 09:41 PM
That's good advice, woodenbandman, but he said:

I'd like to stay pure-monk all the way.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-25, 09:43 PM
That's good advice, woodenbandman, but he said:


And that's a bad idea. Monk has very poor class features past 6th level, and it really isn't worth it. Not even the Spell Resistance is worth losing out on 4 more levels worth of actual class features that matter, as the Incarnate does Spell Resistance better (4 level dip and you have SR that scales for the rest of your career).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-25, 11:28 PM
Monk is one of the worst/weakest designed classes in the game, I would strongly advise against staying single-classed Monk. I'd recommend using Unarmed Swordsage, or going with a hybrid build such as a Tashalatora Psychic Warrior or an Enlightened Fist/ Master of the East Wind build. Monk is one of those classes that lacks the versatility to remain viable in the higher levels, especially the epic levels, so you'll want to mix in some other abilities.

Going Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) 10 gets 18th level Sorcerer spellcasting before Practiced Spellcaster, and 16th level Monk abilities before a Monk's Belt. Master of the East Wind is ten levels, adds 10/10 to spellcasting, 10/10 to Monk abilities, and 5/10 to your Familiar if any, plus it grants the Air domain at the 6th or 7th level. Everything else you need to know about it should be at Crystalkeep. Take the feat Ascetic Mage in Complete Adventurer and don't worry about your Wisdom score. Get Persistent Spell from Complete Arcane, and use it with Wraithstrike each day and you'll seldom miss on any attack roll. Use Moment of Prescience to win initiative and (Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch from Frostburn with your Arcane Fist ability from Enlightened Fist.

There's an Amulet of Mighty Fists in the DMG that gives you an Enhancement bonus on all of your natural attacks, including unarmed strikes. Permanencied Greater Magic Fang can be dispelled, so the amulet is better. There's also the Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species, which can be used to add special properties to your natural weapons in addition to an Enhancement bonus. For example, you could make it +5 Wounding Marrowcrushing (BoVD) and your unarmed strikes will deal two points of Con damage per hit.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-25, 11:33 PM
DM in question here.

Two things...firstly, (and I haven't seen this offered yet, but it's a "just in case"), I'm trying to avoid game-shattering cheese...the game will be tailored to the characters involved, so being a pure monk won't hurt him. I'm the sort who'll give bonuses for good writing over pure mechanics, so he can compensate for his rather underpowered class.

Secondly, if you want to purchase it, I'll allow that item that enhances your unarmed attacks (the name escapes me) to give them enhancements rather than simply bonuses. That one you WILL need to wear though. :smallbiggrin:

MustacheFart
2009-05-26, 12:23 AM
Nobody has suggested it but another easy cheap way to increase size damage for unarmed strikes is through two items:

Mighty Arms Graft:
Mighty Arms Graft - You get metal arms! They allow you to wear Battlefists, which are normally only for warforged. You also gain a natural weapon slam attack (another attack is good :smallsmile:) that starts out dealing, with Battlefists equipped, 1d8 damage for a medium creature.

Source: Faiths of Eberron Price: 1,000gp + 2hp

Battlefist:
Battlefist - +1 Spiked Gauntlet that lets monk's deal unarmed damage as though they are one size category larger. Also add enhancement to UA attack and damage. Can be enhanced further.

Source: Eberron Campaign Setting Price: 2,600gp

I guess its kind of cheesy but they're a cheap and easy way to increase your unarmed damage; not to mention, you get an extra attack to boot! Plus I really like the idea of a human monk with metal arms slugging it out for massive damage. You're basically Jax from Mortal Kombat! :smallbiggrin:

Wanna get super cheesy? Get a +1 Returning Throwing Amulet of Natural attacks and reflavor it to say your fists shoot off rather than being chucked off. Now you have SUPER ROBO BLASTER ARMS!!!

Haven
2009-05-26, 12:51 AM
Be a vampire. Ability bonuses to everything to help out with your MAD, dole out two negative levels every round, your HD become d12s, and a smattering of miscellaneous bonuses.

The LA isn't quite as prohibitive, since you still get to be level 13, which means you still get spell resistance, and the vampire abilities make up for what you lose--Timeless Body, obviously; Gaseous Form instead of Empty Body; Damage Reduction instead of Perfect Self, a +3 attack modifier from strength, and six extra points of natural armor. Plus you can still take advantage of a Monk's Belt.

But mostly because it's awesome. I mean, how can you pass up the chance to play Karate Action Dracula.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-26, 01:11 AM
Forget Vampire, take one level in Soul Eater from BoVD and deal a negative level on every attack!

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-26, 02:27 AM
Monk is one of the worst/weakest designed classes in the game,


I was wondering how many post were needed to see this sentence.

Generally..how many? 3? 4? This time 21.

Woooow.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-26, 02:38 AM
Seriously, Monks have no class features worth the name after level 11, especially with Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt.

That said, your best bet is stacking Size increases. Greater Mighty Wallop is of course great, get it from a caster if you have to beg. Enlarge Person or similar spells add another category(I'd get it permanancied or through a constant-effect item), and INA means you can go from medium to Collasal++, which is where size maxes out.
Now add Scorpion Kamas(Sandstorm, deals your Unarmed damage with an actual weapon) for a vessel for weapon enhancements instead of the Necklace or the stupid Amulet. I'd recommend getting it +1 with various enhancements, then begging the caster for the other GMW spell as well, instead of going +5.

Khanderas
2009-05-26, 02:48 AM
Be a vampire. Ability bonuses to everything to help out with your MAD, dole out two negative levels every round, your HD become d12s, and a smattering of miscellaneous bonuses.

The LA isn't quite as prohibitive, since you still get to be level 13, which means you still get spell resistance, and the vampire abilities make up for what you lose--Timeless Body, obviously; Gaseous Form instead of Empty Body; Damage Reduction instead of Perfect Self, a +3 attack modifier from strength, and six extra points of natural armor. Plus you can still take advantage of a Monk's Belt.

But mostly because it's awesome. I mean, how can you pass up the chance to play Karate Action Dracula.
I like it. But dont forget some drawbacks. Sunlight, cant enter uninvited, postive/negative energy for healing.

I still like it though.

Maltore
2009-05-26, 04:48 PM
Superior Unarmed Strike (feat from Tome of Battle) allows you to calculate your unarmed damage as if you were 5 levels higher, just like a Monk's Belt does. Your DM might rule that the two don't stack, though.

If you are allowed to use it, Savage Species has an item that you can enchant and that transfers it enchantment to one of your natural attacks (for you, choose unarmed strike). It is cheaper than the amulet from the DMG, because it is specific as to which attack it enhances (for example a dragon with the Savage Species amulet would have to pay separately for his bite, claw, tail and wing attack, so it would be better off with the DMG amulet. You, on the other hand, are not). If not, your DM might allow gloves or bracers to do the same. It's more expensive to buy an item than to have permanencied Greater Magic Fang, but it can't be dispelled.

Another idea for an item would be to ask for one that carries the Expansion power (like winged boots, only power instead of spell). Advantage: you can grow one size for a limited amount of rounds/day without having to bother another party member.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-26, 07:24 PM
You could also get a wizard to permanency enlarge person on you. Up the size damage.

Chronos
2009-05-26, 07:28 PM
You could also get a wizard to permanency enlarge person on you. Up the size damage.Nope, the capstone ability of the monk class is that Enlarge Person doesn't work on you any more.

Siosilvar
2009-05-26, 07:31 PM
Secondly, if you want to purchase it, I'll allow that item that enhances your unarmed attacks (the name escapes me) to give them enhancements rather than simply bonuses. That one you WILL need to wear though. :smallbiggrin:

Name's the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and it costs 50% more than just a magic weapon.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-26, 11:22 PM
Name's the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and it costs 50% more than just a magic weapon.Necklace of Natural Attacks(SS) works, too(for a better price), as does reslotting the Amulet to something that actually deals with attacks(designers admitted the poor slot for the Amulet is why it's so expensive), or, as I said before, Scorpion Kamas(Sandstorm).

Also, what's the abreviation for those 2? I just realized I've been using SS for both Savage Species and Sandstorm. :smallfrown:

The Glyphstone
2009-05-26, 11:53 PM
I think (SSt) is for Sandstorm, whereas simply (SS) is for Savage Species.

Frosty
2009-05-27, 12:02 AM
Monk is one of the worst/weakest designed classes in the game

Umm...doesn't that dubious honor belong to the Samurai or Soulknife or Truenamer?

MisterSaturnine
2009-05-27, 12:30 AM
Umm...doesn't that dubious honor belong to the Samurai or Soulknife or Truenamer?

One of. Which means those guys get their place, too.

Of course, you can actually do stuff with a monk. You can do it better with other classes, but there are still some cool things you can do. So, while Monk is one of the worst classes, at least they're usable (to an extent), such as with the many suggestions proffered on this thread. Soulknife/Samurai/Truenamer?...yeah, not so much.