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Xallace
2009-05-28, 03:38 PM
Hello all!

So I will not be a PC in a 4E campaign for a while (probably), but when I am, I am very interested in playing a sorcerer (from PHBII). Specifically, Arcane Power's Storm Sorcerer. I'm having a couple issues with my theoretical build, though, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to lend me a hand?

First, the mechanical! I would like my main implements to be daggers. Two of them, specifically. The vision of lightning arcing between my knives as I fight is just too cool, so this is a definite.

For Race I'm thinking human, although Goliath might be fun just for kicks (though hardly optimal, I bet. I also have an idea for a Goliath astronomer, so I may save that for then).

For feats, I'm thinking Sorcerous Blade Channeling (to meld melee and spells), Dual Implement Spellcaster (for coolness factor but also extra damage) and Melee Training (changing my melee attacks to either Dex or Cha for that extra synergy). I'll also have to take feats that improve Thunder and Lightning powers (Tempest Casting and Solid Sound are the only ones off the top of my head). But you get a LOT of feats in 4th edition, I don't think that'll cover all of my slots. Perhaps some Light Blade feats? Racial feats? I'm not sure. I definitely need some help here.

My paragon path is completely up in the air. Lightning Fury (from Arcane Power) seems the logical choice, but what if I multiclass Rogue and take Daggermaster? Would multiclassing be a poor choice, or perhaps an excellent one? Throwing in some rogue would definitely up my melee skills a little.

My skills would be Arcana, Athletics, Diplomacy, and at least one other (two if I multiclass). I was considering taking Sorcerous Vision later, which would allow me to use Arcana in place of Perception or Insight.

Now, as for roleplaying... I'm not entirely sure what I want to do. I feel like the choices here are pointing towards something in his back-story, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

So, that's about all, I think. Any suggestions?

DM Raven
2009-05-28, 04:05 PM
Implement Expertise (Dagger) of course. You might also want to grab two-weapon fighting as it gives all your attacks +1 to damage. (I know it sounds weird, but the feat does not specify what type of attacks and Character Builder backs it up!) You can always retrain out of it later once you get two magic daggers. But the +1 damage for lower levels is nice and you can then grab two weapon defense (to continue your two-dagger theme.)

kieza
2009-05-28, 04:11 PM
Dual-Implement Spellcaster; when wielding two implements, you can add the enhancement bonus from both when making an attack with either. (So, if you have a +1 and +2 dagger, you have +3 enhancement bonus to damage with attacks using either implement.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-28, 04:31 PM
Dual-Implement Spellcaster; when wielding two implements, you can add the enhancement bonus from both when making an attack with either. (So, if you have a +1 and +2 dagger, you have +3 enhancement bonus to damage with attacks using either implement.

Broooooooken.

Sir Homeslice
2009-05-28, 04:38 PM
Broooooooken.
Not at all, actually.

OP: You're going to want Focused Expertise (Daggers) and Reaper's Touch. MCing into Rogue for Daggermaster is a pretty good choice, as you'll get an 18-20 crit range, which makes Sorcerors incredibly crazy at Epic. Weapon Focus is a good feat, but at Heroic you might want to find other things, as imo +1 to damage ins't that great. As far as DiS and daggers though, you do want a staff of ruin, but since you're going dual daggers, a paired dagger would help you pretty well. Sneak of Shadows is a nice way to add damage once per encounter, especially with Reaper's Touch. Leather Proficiency is a good +2 AC for you.

AgentPaper
2009-05-28, 04:48 PM
Broooooooken.

You get the extra enhancement to damage, not to attack rolls. :smallwink: It gives 1-6 extra damage, see.

Xallace
2009-05-28, 06:48 PM
I'd just like to start off by thanking everyone who's posted so far, you've all been big helps (except you, Tengu_Temp, but I laughed so it's all good).


Not at all, actually.

OP: You're going to want Focused Expertise (Daggers) and Reaper's Touch. MCing into Rogue for Daggermaster is a pretty good choice, as you'll get an 18-20 crit range, which makes Sorcerors incredibly crazy at Epic. Weapon Focus is a good feat, but at Heroic you might want to find other things, as imo +1 to damage ins't that great. As far as DiS and daggers though, you do want a staff of ruin, but since you're going dual daggers, a paired dagger would help you pretty well. Sneak of Shadows is a nice way to add damage once per encounter, especially with Reaper's Touch. Leather Proficiency is a good +2 AC for you.

Thank you, but there are several things that I don't recognize. Specifically, Reaper's Touch and Paired Daggers. Where (or what) are these?

Colmarr
2009-05-28, 06:58 PM
You get the extra enhancement to damage, not to attack rolls. :smallwink: It gives 1-6 extra damage, see.

Phew! Glad you clarified that, otherwise I would have had to join Tengu's choir.

NecroRebel
2009-05-28, 07:10 PM
Thank you, but there are several things that I don't recognize. Specifically, Reaper's Touch and Paired Daggers. Where (or what) are these?

Paired weapons are from the Adventurer's Vault, and split into two identical weapons with an at-will minor action. This means that you can get the maximum enhancement bonus on both your daggers without having to pay through the nose for the second one, which in turn adds extra damage

I'm not familiar with Reaper's Touch, though.



A piece of advice, though; the vast majority of Storm Magic spells, and indeed lightning-damage spells Sorcerors have available, target Reflex. You may chance to happen upon an enemy with an extremely high Reflex defense, but lower Fortitude or Will defense, so make do try to choose at least one or two powers that target these defenses instead. Humans can pick up Lightning Strike, Storm Walk, and Chaos Bolt, for instance, as at-will powers, which would mean they can target whatever NAD (Non-Armor Defense) is lowest at will. Can be extremely beneficial, particularly if it means targeting a defense 3, 4, 5, or even 6 or more lower.

Gralamin
2009-05-28, 07:15 PM
As an Alternative idea...

I recently made a Rogue-Sorcerer hybrid Level 1 build for fun (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=129190)
While this build is not using dual daggers it can easily be adapted to do so.

Some key things: Focused Expertise Is like Weapon and Implement Expertise combined into one feat. At low levels stay out of melee, your to easy to hit. At higher levels you can wade in pretty well.

Feats I planned on taking:
(2) Leather Armor Prof
(4) Sorcererous Blade Channeling
(6) Dual Implement Spellcaster
(8) Two-Weapon Fighting
(10) Rash Sneak Attack or Toughness
(11) Storm Spellfury
(12) Paragon Defenses (Retrain to Robust Defenses in Epic)
(14) Reserve Maneuver
(16) Resounding Thunder
(18) Weapon Focus (Dagger)
(20) Raging Storm
(21) Fury of the Storm
(22) Quickened Spellcasting
(24) Ruthless Spellfury
(26) Sorcererous Flux
(28) Lasting Advantage
(30) Explosive Spellcasting

I'm sure theres some amount of optimization that could be done that I'm missing, though this is an alternative that might be very strong.

Edit: On Reapers Touch: Its from Dragon 372


Reaperís Touch
Prerequisites: Invoker, sorcerer, warlock, or
wizard class
Benefit: You gain a benefit with any of the following
attack powers you know.
...
Acid Orb (sorcerer, see Playerís Handbook 2, page
138): This power gains a range of Melee touch in
addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee
basic attack.
Dragonfrost (sorcerer, see Playerís Handbook 2, page
139): This power gains a range of Melee touch in
addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee
basic attack.

greenknight
2009-05-28, 07:37 PM
There's a build which uses this idea on the WotC Character Optimization boards. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1175304)

Personally, I think going Daggermaster perverts the intent of the PP, since that's intended for when the character uses a dagger as a weapon, not as an implement. You'd be on safer ground with your DM if you took the Sorcerer Implement Expertise feat instead, and in that case I'd suggest you take the Essence Mage PP.

Xallace
2009-05-28, 10:36 PM
Paired weapons are from the Adventurer's Vault, and split into two identical weapons with an at-will minor action. This means that you can get the maximum enhancement bonus on both your daggers without having to pay through the nose for the second one, which in turn adds extra damage

Alright, cool, I'll have to take a look at Adventurer's Vault. That's one I don't own.



A piece of advice, though; the vast majority of Storm Magic spells, and indeed lightning-damage spells Sorcerors have available, target Reflex. You may chance to happen upon an enemy with an extremely high Reflex defense, but lower Fortitude or Will defense, so make do try to choose at least one or two powers that target these defenses instead. Humans can pick up Lightning Strike, Storm Walk, and Chaos Bolt, for instance, as at-will powers, which would mean they can target whatever NAD (Non-Armor Defense) is lowest at will. Can be extremely beneficial, particularly if it means targeting a defense 3, 4, 5, or even 6 or more lower.

I wanted to try and take about even parts Lightning and Thunder, and I think Thunder targets Fort so that just leaves me lacking in the Will area... OK, thank you for the advice I'll make sure to remember it.

As an Alternative idea...
Where do I find Focused Expertise, anyway? I thought I knew, but I can't seem to spot it.
And thank you for the progression idea, I'll have to switch a few things around but it looks good.

Also, I can't imagine why I would take Reaper's Touch, I won't be using those spells.

Personally, I think going Daggermaster perverts the intent of the PP, since that's intended for when the character uses a dagger as a weapon, not as an implement. You'd be on safer ground with your DM if you took the Sorcerer Implement Expertise feat instead, and in that case I'd suggest you take the Essence Mage PP.

Well, I do plan on using the daggers as weapons, too. Don't I only get the increased crit range when using a melee dagger attack anyway? I mean, yeah, when using Sorcerous Blade Channeling it's the spell, but I still have to be in melee and hit them with the dagger.

I understand the concern though.

Asbestos
2009-05-28, 10:51 PM
PHB2 has two feats you may want to check out.

Echoes of Thunder:
Heroic Tier
Benefit: When you hit with any thunder attack power, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

and...

Oncoming Storm:
Heroic Tier
Benefit: When you hit with any lightning attack power, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with thunder powers until the end of your next turn.

How has no one else pointed this out? Do I overvalue this feats for a storm sorcerer?

Gralamin
2009-05-28, 10:52 PM
Where do I find Focused Expertise, anyway? I thought I knew, but I can't seem to spot it.
Monk Article


And thank you for the progression idea, I'll have to switch a few things around but it looks good.
Your welcome.


Also, I can't imagine why I would take Reaper's Touch, I won't be using those spells.

Exactly why I didn't take it.

Burley
2009-05-29, 06:48 AM
Well, I do plan on using the daggers as weapons, too. Don't I only get the increased crit range when using a melee dagger attack anyway? I mean, yeah, when using Sorcerous Blade Channeling it's the spell, but I still have to be in melee and hit them with the dagger.

I understand the concern though.

Technically, no. You don't have to use a melee dagger attack. You just have to make an attack with a dagger. Any of your spells would work, because the feature doesn't specifically say anything at all to the contrary.

However! In Arcane Power, an epic (maybe paragon) tier feat released that increases the crit threat range for sorcerer powers to 19-20. This is kind of a nudge in the direction of "Stay out of paragon paths that don't want you in them."
It's all WotC fault for STILL not clarifying the whole "weapon as implement thing." We should all only play Swordmages and Sorcerers and Avengers and THEN WE'LL SEE WHO'S LAUGHING!

V'icternus
2009-05-29, 07:04 AM
Well, from a role-play aspect, I just had a vision of a backstory where the character got struck by lightning... (therefore unleasing the Chaos in his blood and making him a Sorceror in the first place)

As for the rest, I'd probably stick with Human for the race... (Human Defences are good for classes that try to avoid melee attacks, and an extra feat is fun, and another At-Will as well.)

But, there are other classes that make great Sorcerors. Optimally, I think Dragonborn work, and for fun, well, lots of things can be fun.

Also, because a Sorceror boosts Strength, Melee attacking is a viable option. Double-weild magic daggers, get the dagger/Sorceror feats as suggested.

I'd stick with a Sorceror Paragon Path or a Racial one, but that's just me. The benefits of the PP's are usually catered towards the class that they're a part of.

Above all, just remember that in this edition, it doesn't take a rules expert to get a decent character.

The main points to remember are chance to hit > damage, increase your main attack score as much as possible (remembering to increase others if you need them for feats and whatnot), and remember to roleplay the hell out of this lightning-based Sorceror.

"Shocking, isn't it?"
Hehehe, how cliche...

AbyssKnight
2009-05-29, 07:53 AM
Optimally, I think Dragonborn work, and for fun, well, lots of things can be fun.

Also, because a Sorceror boosts Strength, Melee attacking is a viable option. Double-weild magic daggers, get the dagger/Sorceror feats as suggested.



Actually Dragonborn probably isn't the best race for this. Cosmic and Dragon sorcerers use Charisma and Strength. Chaos and Storm sorcerers use Charisma and Dexterity. So Drow and Halflings (and of course, Humans) work well.

V'icternus
2009-05-29, 08:04 AM
Ah, that's right. Sorry, my AP and PHBII knowledge isn't as, uh... knowlegable, as I would like.

But yeah, in that case, for optimisation purposes, I'd go human.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-29, 08:35 AM
You get the extra enhancement to damage, not to attack rolls. :smallwink: It gives 1-6 extra damage, see.

And only after reading this I realized this is not homebrew, but a real feat from Arcane Power. Not broken, just very good (at paragon and higher at least).

Blackfang108
2009-05-29, 08:47 AM
(21) Fury of the Storm

I have to second this, especially if you go Daggermaster.

Full Crit? yes Please!

(Fury of the Storm maximizes your extra Crit dice.)

Burley
2009-05-29, 08:53 AM
Actually, the best best best race for a Storm Sorcerer is a halfling. Why? Because a lot of the Storm Sorcerer powers are "Area Burst X within Y squares" powers. Arcane power has a halfling sorcerer only feat that makes all 'area' attacks stop provoking opportunity attacks.
This means, if you ever get surrounded you can drop those "Area Burst 1 spells with the Storm source: Origin Square not affected" powers on yourself.
Plus the halfling's got a lot of really great "please don't hit me" abilities, like +2 against OA attacks, and, of course, the racial power.
Also, definitely pick up a familiar, most notably, the rat familiar. It makes thievery checks for you, at your modifier +2. Halflings get +2 and you'll have a high dex for damage. You should have a +5 to +8 without even being trained. Plus, they can manipulate and use tools. Since you're multi-classing into rogue anyways........

Leon
2009-05-29, 09:50 AM
Hmm
Storm & Sorcerer... i may have to take a second look at 4e

Xallace
2009-05-29, 10:12 AM
Technically, no. You don't have to use a melee dagger attack. You just have to make an attack with a dagger. Any of your spells would work, because the feature doesn't specifically say anything at all to the contrary.

"You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18-20."
...Yeah, that's pretty vague. I think the intent was with melee attacks, though. I'll bring it up with the eventual DM and see what they say.


Well, from a role-play aspect, I just had a vision of a backstory where the character got struck by lightning... (therefore unleasing the Chaos in his blood and making him a Sorceror in the first place)

I like it. Also with all this knife fighting and the suggested rat familiar this character sounds like he was some kind of street urchin until the powers hit. Maybe I oughta send a good amount of my loot back to the slums (and not tell anybody).

Actually, the best best best race for a Storm Sorcerer is a halfling.

Interesting idea. Thanks, I'll definitely think about it (though I'm really thinking human at this point).

Artanis
2009-05-29, 10:28 AM
I like it. Also with all this knife fighting and the suggested rat familiar this character sounds like he was some kind of street urchin until the powers hit. Maybe I oughta send a good amount of my loot back to the slums (and not tell anybody).
If you get your hands on a few Everlasting Provisions, you could set up a small "soup kitchen". They're relatively cheap (by magic item standards, at least), and each one can provide fifteen good meals a day.

Xallace
2009-05-29, 12:47 PM
If you get your hands on a few Everlasting Provisions, you could set up a small "soup kitchen". They're relatively cheap (by magic item standards, at least), and each one can provide fifteen good meals a day.

That's a good idea! I'm thinking I need a couple contacts in my backstory, at least one that's willing to start a "neighborhood refurbishment" project. Maybe my character's parents? Maybe not. I don't want to go the orphan route- too cliche.

I need a name... how does Bastian Fischer sound? I guess that makes his parents fishermen (german ones, at that). So he lives in a port city? Man, it's too bad Sorcerers don't get Streetwise as a class skill (maybe I should see if I can use Backgrounds).