Relationship Woes and Advice, 2 cubed

[xPANCAKEx]

first and fore-most, glad shes of the age of consent, else thats and instant no-no. As for the age gap... its still do-able, but be aware she won't be at the same place emotionally or in the maturity stakes

everyone gets weird/defensive about the person they're dating seeing other people... but if its casual, and you're not too keen on either girl just yet, then forcing yourself to choose before you're better equipped to make that choice seems a bit silly. Just be honest about things. Until you know you like one girl more than the other, you have to prioritise your feelings, not theirs

[MethosH]

you have to prioritise your feelings, not theirs

I think I really have an issue with that :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Then the Emperor has already won.

Seriously though. It's like romantic liaisons. If either party isn't getting their share out of it, then that's going to sour things for their opposite number.

First enjoy yourself. Second enjoy them. Third they enjoy you.

And then once you get really good you can manage them simultaneously despite the hierarchical order.

Sort of like Maslow....

[skywalker]

and if you're 20, and girl 2 is 4 years younger, then she is 16. As im assuming you're from the states, sex is a no-no with her too

Age of consent is 16 most places... It depends where you are, but as long as he's less than exactly 4 years older, it probably wouldn't matter here either.

I'm sheepish to say that I've done extensive research on the topic...

[MethosH]

wait.. what? you are saying that its ok for a 9 years old boy to have sexual relations with a 8 years old girl? :smallconfused:

[Pyrian]

No, he was referring to the specific situation. C'mon.

[skywalker]

wait.. what? you are saying that its ok for a 9 years old boy to have sexual relations with a 8 years old girl? :smallconfused:

You are responding to me?

That's not what I was saying at all. The point was that when someone turns 16, it gets very fuzzy over here. I was not saying that you're free and clear if you're within 4 years. But that once you go past 16, then you are much more likely to be free and clear. And much more likely to be at very little risk of legal proceedings regardless.

[MethosH]

Over here starts to get pretty fuzzy at the age 14. I remember researching about that when I was 15... Apparentlyif you are between 14 and 16 its ok to have that kind of relation with a girl that is between 14 and 15. At least it was 5 years ago :smalltongue:

[Milskidasith]

Legally, a 9 and an 8 year old being together wouldn't be a crime, anywhere (assuming it was consensual), because age of consent is only a crime if somebody over it does it with somebody under it. Anyway, in the US, in most places you can be 16 and have sex legally, though in some states there are "age gap" laws that says that, though it's legal at 16, it's illegal if the non 16 year old partner is over 18-21 years old (in most states, at 18 anybody can legally have sex with you).

[Shikton]

MethosHazara
I would date neither of them in your situation. They say opposites attract eachother, but c'mon, you have to have some common interests for things to work. Anything. So if you really have nothing in common with the first one, I doubt it's gonna work in the long run. A lover is supposed to be your best friend and share you interests y'know, at least imo.

And the 16-year old. Long distance with a 16-year old? Not gonna happen. Sure, you could be one of the very few who manage to make it work, but the odds weigh heavily against you on that matter. I'd steer clear.

Plenty of other "fish in the sea". Play and have fun instead, until you meet someone else. :)

[Klose_the_Sith]

Dunno why I'm even posting this, but in case anyone cares? I took my approach to the situation.

Y'know, the one where everyone thought it would end horribly etc.

She was thankful I was there. Near as I can tell I intervened in something that could otherwise have ended in self harm.

Just thought you ought to know that there was a happy ending.

[Pyrian]

Legally, a 9 and an 8 year old being together wouldn't be a crime, anywhere (assuming it was consensual), because age of consent is only a crime if somebody over it does it with somebody under it.There are a large number of places where this is not true at all. Typically, the chain is that both children are considered to have committed statutory rape, but as children, they aren't really legally liable; their parents or guardians are. So, if a nine and an eight year old are getting it on somehow and that becomes clear to authorities, both of their parents are likely to get into a world of trouble over it.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Zeful: Oh, I know it doesn't change overnight. I've known the truth of my statement for years, and I still have work to do on my own self-image. Old habits die hard, and one's views seem to change either suddenly/violently or at a snail's pace.

MethosHazara: I don't know what you're after, but options 1 and 2 both feel as if they are long term dead-ends. That in mind, in the short run, I'd suggest being 1's friend and seeing 2 (if you even bother seeing either at all given the doomy forecast).

[Coidzor]

Truly, is there anything more annoying than having to explain age of consent laws?

I once had the same girl ask me questions about it about 7 times over the course of three years. Despite the fact that I just sent her to google after the first two times.

And why would anything change overnight other than legal status based upon an arbitrary date?

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

U.S.
. . . . Male-Female, Male-Male, Female-Female

USA Alabama 16 16 16
USA Alaska 16 16 16
USA Arizona 18 18
18
USA Arkansas16 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA California 18 18 18
USA Colorado16 15/17 15/17 15/17
USA Connecticut 16 16 16
USA D.C. 16 16 16
USA Delaware16 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Florida16 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Georgia 16 16 16
USA Hawaii 16 16 16
USA Idaho 18 18 18
USA Illinois 17 17 17
USA Indiana16 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA Iowa16 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA Kansas 16 16 16
USA Kentucky 16 16 16
USA Louisiana16 17 17 17
USA Maine 16 16 16
USA Maryland 16 16 16
USA Massachusetts 16 16 16
USA Michigan 16 16 16
USA Minnesota 16 16 16
USA Mississippi 16 16 16
USA Missouri 17 17 17
USA Montana 16 16 16
USA Nebraska 17 17 17
USA Nevada 16 16 16
USA New Hampshire 16 16 16
USA New Jersey 16 16 16
USA New Mexico 17 17 17
USA New York 17 17 17
USA North Carolina16 16 16 16
USA North Dakota 18 18 18
USA Ohio 16 16 16
USA Oklahoma 16 16 16
USA Oregon 18 18 18
USA Pennsylvania 16 16 16
USA Rhode Island 16 16 16
USA South Carolina 16 16 16
USA South Dakota 16 16 16
USA Tennessee 18 18 18
USA Texas16 17 17 17
USA Utah16 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Vermont 16 16 16
USA Virginia 18 18 18
USA Washington16 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA West Virginia 16 16 16
USA Wisconsin 18 18 18
USA Wyoming16 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Travelling citizens17 12/16 12/16 12/16
USA Military personnel18 16 Illegal Illegal

[ForzaFiori]

In the US at least, the age of consent is 16 in every state (I think). In about half the states, at 16 you can have "relations" with anyone you want to as long as your both 16 or up. In most of the other half, 16 and 17 yr olds can have "relations" with each other, but 18 and up can't. In a very few, 16 can only go with 16 and 17 can only go with 17. SC almost passed that kind of law, but it didn't go through, so were still with the 16-17 and 18 and up categories.

Unless a bunch of laws have changed recently, that's a fairly good explanation of Age of consent laws in the US

[Syka]

I'm glad stuff worked out, Klose.

I'm curious, has anyone else ever had friends who they don't think are aiming for someone they are happiest with but more who they are least miserable with? It's a very interesting situation and ended up with this couple breaking up and getting back together (for the second main time) and...well, it's just very interesting.

[Kaelaroth]

I'm curious, has anyone else ever had friends who they don't think are aiming for someone they are happiest with but more who they are least miserable with? It's a very interesting situation and ended up with this couple breaking up and getting back together (for the second main time) and...well, it's just very interesting.

Yes. It starts interesting, and then gets horrific.

[Bookman]

In the US at least, the age of consent is 16 in every state (I think). In about half the states, at 16 you can have "relations" with anyone you want to as long as your both 16 or up. In most of the other half, 16 and 17 yr olds can have "relations" with each other, but 18 and up can't. In a very few, 16 can only go with 16 and 17 can only go with 17. SC almost passed that kind of law, but it didn't go through, so were still with the 16-17 and 18 and up categories.

Unless a bunch of laws have changed recently, that's a fairly good explanation of Age of consent laws in the US

SC actually changed age of consent in November from 14 to 16. I dunno the DETAILS of said change... but yeah. We were like the youngest or 2nd youngest in the nation.

[Tar Palantir]

Apologies in advance for any possible incoherence, I'm writing this "stream of consciousness" style.

I am currently 0-2 when it comes to initiating a relationship, and while it is far too early to say for certain, I am beginning to suspect some flaw in my methodology. although the precise nature of the flaw is still quite unclear. The relative similarity between the two individuals and scenarios poses a further difficulty. Both girls are reasonably intelligent, not unattractive (by general opinion and on a scale of 1-10, the first would be a 7-8, and the second a 5-6; obviously they were both attractive to me if I asked them out, but it is still a piece of data worth noting), compassionate, artistic, religious (I suspect this as a possible negative factor only in the first case; the second individual is far less...orthodox is not the correct term here, but I can think of no better), and on good terms with me (the second girl and I remain extremely close friends; things were slightly more...awkward with the first, although I can discern no overt reason other than that we simply weren't as close to begin with). I considered the second girl preferable to the first, but asked the other girl out first because a) if she did turn me down, it would help me should the second do the same (worked, too), and b)if she said yes, but the relationship later soured, I would be able to apply my experiences to the second and have an improved chance of long-term success in the relationship which mattered to me more (this is not to say that I wouldn't have been perfectly happy with a relationship with the first girl; quite the contrary, in fact). The second girl is one of those people who you have absolutely nothing in common with, but whose company you enjoy immensely, and they yours, despite having every reason to loath each other. When it comes to the actual proposition, in both cases my requests were reasonably, although not extremely, confident. In both cases, I was rejected with rather feeble excuses, obviously intended to avoid hurting my feelings (although in the second case, I estimate there is a 30% likelihood that her excuse was genuine, a number I reached through reasons I won't detail here for the sake of time). The first was done in person, the second over the phone. I can't think of what other factors could be applicable as far as choice of partner or circumstances of attempt are concerned. The third category, my own personality and behaviors, appears to me far and away the most likely source of failure, but I hesitate to trust my own judgment in this matter, for obvious reasons. I will thus attempt to list any and all traits, both positive and negative, that come to mind.

I am extremely intelligent. This is considered by most to be my defining characteristic, and has alternately been described as "inhumane" or simply "holy ****", "woah", or some variation thereof.
I am a gamer, specifically a PC gamer, although I do not partake of any MMOs, as they seem a poor substitute for D&D, which I also play.
I excel at nearly all academic and artistic pursuits, with the exceptions of music and drawing/painting. I participated in drama (a hobby shared by both girls), and am something of an author as well (which is well known as my eventual employment goal).
As far as appearance is concerned, I am stereotypically "geeky": pale skin, glasses, acne, etc. While it has been expressed by some that I am not entirely unattractive, physical appearance is by far one of my weakest areas.
I maintain a reasonable level of hygiene, showering and using deodorant daily and shaving when necessary.
I am quite narcissistic and arrogant, although I will gladly admit when someone is clearly superior to me in some area (an uncommon enough occurence to warrant some degree of narcissism, in my opinion :smalltongue:).
I have a tendency to debate, and do so quite well, to the point where some people find it irritating (although the second girl for sure, and I believe the first as well, enjoyed our occasional debates on religion, morality, and metaphysics).

I can't think of anything else right now. Any opinions are welcome, from carefully drawn conclusions to reasonable suppositions to wild speculation. i just thought it might help to get it down on paper (on on screen, as the case may be).

[Syka]

Debates are fun. Condescension is not. Take a look into what your 'debates' are like and you may find yourself seeming to look down upon the very girls you were trying to woo.

I had a guy do that. It's one of the main reasons I distanced myself from him- who wants to feel like their friend is just humoring the 'unenlightened' one?

Narcissism is NOT a good trait even if warrented. It means you are full of yourself and for most people that is a huuuge turn off. I am confident, I know I am intelligent and attractive enough and all but I do not think that makes me better than my friends who maybe don't do so well in school or haven't accomplished as much or whatever. Confidence=/=narcissism.

Try taking an honest look at how you TREAT these girls and maybe you'll see the problem.

[Faulty]

I am quite narcissistic and arrogant, although I will gladly admit when someone is clearly superior to me in some area (an uncommon enough occurence to warrant some degree of narcissism, in my opinion :smalltongue:).

Narcissists tend to overrate their own capabilities, so there's a good chance your arrogance is not warrented. Either way, narcissism is never attractive, and it represents an inability to properly consider those outside yourself, which is really necessary for maintaining a healthy relationship. Honestly, I had a sense of your narcissism before even reading that paragraph. The way you wrote, to me at least, showed a real sense of smugness in your intelligence. This would, of course, carry over into debate and conversation IRL. That's going to severely turn people off. You should probably reign in your ego a bit. Maybe they both just weren't interested in relationship, or one with you, or liked someone else. Try asking other girls out once you feel you're prepared.

[xPANCAKEx]

Tar Palantir

firstly - i'd like to know what you actually said when asking them out - this can often be a deal breaker without people realising

secondly - a problem many of us suffer - you're over thinking everything. I know this is counter intuitive, but when it comes to dating you sometimes have to switch off and go on instinct. In retrospect you should have gone for the 2nd girl first - you seem far more into her, and if she or others found out your reasoning for going about it the way you did they might accuse you of being overly analytical or cold. Girls want passion.

debating can be a touchy issue - be inquisitive, not dogmatic

[Faulty]

they might accuse you of being overly analytical or cold. Girls want passion.

In general, you shouldn't be using people as means to ends. Any relationship, romantic or not, is about trust and consideration, and if someone feels like you see them as something to be used or objectified, they won't feel comfortable.

[Tar Palantir]

I can definitely concur that the narcissism is a problem, and one that I am trying to work on, with significant difficulty, I must admit. Part of the problem is that I can find very few people intelligent, talented, skilled, or interesting enough to warrant my esteem, and I have trouble with the notion that people should be unconditionally given any more than the sliver of attention and respect needed for me to learn their name. I can see how this may not be conducive to relationship-building.

That being said, these two are some of the half dozen odd people whom I show great respect. With many people, I simply tear their arguments to shreds while they lie weeping on the floor. With them, I listen considerately to their points, asking for clarifications and presenting counterpoints, but always open to the possibility of "losing" the debate and revising my opinions. In other cases, we have respectfully agreed to disagree, and in a few I have swayed them to my view. With people I do respect, I approach debate from the standpoint of two people seeking wisdom together, rather than two people striving against one another, and (to the best of my knowledge) that comes across reasonably clearly. If it didn't, then I don't believe the second girl would continue to participate in and initiate these debates.

It is possible that I may have inadvertently offended the first girl by challenging some of her unquestioned religious beliefs, often a touchy area. Hmm. Something to consider.

EDIT: Faulty and Pancake, I can see what you mean, though I didn't intend it that way. And as far as my instinct goes, I tried that the first time, and it didn't work out so hot. Mr. Instinct is still in time out while Mr. Intellect tries to clean up this mess. Though I'm not exactly in the best position to argue that my method is better, now am I?

[Quincunx]

Or--not as quick, but better in the long run--you can throttle back your speech patterns until you're speaking in a conversational tone and not a confrontational one. (Insert point-by-point rebuttal of your post, by means of breaking the quote block and answering each line with a paragraph, here. Try replicating that nuisance in casual speech. Bleh.)

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Tar: I just want to hug you and call you Spock. :smallbiggrin: That aside, well... aside: as a general rule, the art of seduction is more about being pursued rather than doing the pursuing. I cannot know the details of the 0-2 approach taken, but given the way you've presented yourself, I think it's safe to assume that it was more direct than not. Often, the lay of the land within the human mating game is much like the wolf spider's: failure if one approaches too directly. You own up to arrogance and narcissictic behavior. That's honest and wonderfully self-aware, I can appreciate just how rare that combination is in a person. However, such a mentality often alters one's behaviors, turning such things as instinctive body language into a subconscious warning flag that you are a potential foe as opposed to friend. There are many unspoken variables here.

[Tar Palantir]

Hadrian, you're spot-on. The first approach more or less consisted of me saying, "I'd like to go out with you," while the second was a long conversation just chatting, trying to set it up, until I got sick of that and just came out and asked. I take to subtlety like carp to quantum physics, and I don't do self-deception at all. I'm confident in most things because I nearly always succeed at them, and lack confidence in relationship matters for the same reason (heck, the only reason I could pull it together and ask either of them out at all was because the first time I assumed it couldn't be that hard, if all these other people can pull it off, and the second time I considered the first time a fluke).

Also, somehow I completely missed your first post, Faulty. I need a new mouse wheel.

[Pyrian]

I'm curious, has anyone else ever had friends who they don't think are aiming for someone they are happiest with but more who they are least miserable with?Certainly; a cynic might consider that quite reasonable. But heck, I have friends who seem to aim for the person they're most miserable with...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Hadrian, you're spot-on. The first approach more or less consisted of me saying, "I'd like to go out with you," while the second was a long conversation just chatting, trying to set it up, until I got sick of that and just came out and asked. I take to subtlety like carp to quantum physics, and I don't do self-deception at all. I'm confident in most things because I nearly always succeed at them, and lack confidence in relationship matters for the same reason (heck, the only reason I could pull it together and ask either of them out at all was because the first time I assumed it couldn't be that hard, if all these other people can pull it off, and the second time I considered the first time a fluke).

Also, somehow I completely missed your first post, Faulty. I need a new mouse wheel.

It helps to think that it's not being subtle so much as correctly doing the steps in a dance, as opposed to simply striding with purpose across the room. If the process strikes you as too obnoxious to bother with, you'll just have to find more like-minded people and/or ones who find comfort in your brand of overt tranparency.

Note: I'm no sage. Just calling things as I see them given my own... special backround.

[Faulty]

Part of the problem is that I can find very few people intelligent, talented, skilled, or interesting enough to warrant my esteem, and I have trouble with the notion that people should be unconditionally given any more than the sliver of attention and respect needed for me to learn their name.

You need to change this attitude, or no one will like you or want to engage in any form of relationship with you.

[Tar Palantir]

Note: I'm no sage. Just calling things as I see them given my own... special backround.

That sounded really ominous in my head, but your point is still appreciated.


You need to change this attitude, or no one will like you or want to engage in any form of relationship with you.

While I appreciate your forthrightness, in practice this isn't very different from how people actually behave. If you are good at or knowledgeable about something they find interesting, they give you their attention. If you're good at something they aren't interested in and nothing they are, they typically have little to do with you beyond the necessities of basic interaction. People who like intelligent people hang out with intelligent people. People who like baseball hang out with people who like baseball. Extend this to all applicable interests, and you'll have covered practically ever person they associate with (minus coworkers, family members, etc., of course). With few exceptions, people like people who have qualities they like or who have common interests.Other people are most often little more than names, faces, and the occasional gossip. I simply admit it, and find few people who hold my interest.

[Froogleyboy]

Okey, There is this girl. We've used to go to the same church but then she had to change so we barely ever get to see each other, but we text twenty four seven (no kidding we text each other till we dose off and she wakes me up with a text.) She sent me a message saying "I really like you. You're the sweetest guy i've ever met. But we never get to see each other and I don't like long distance."

Is there anything I can do?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Tar: :smallbiggrin: Your reaction is amusing.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Okey, There is this girl. We've used to go to the same church but then she had to change so we barely ever get to see each other, but we text twenty four seven (no kidding we text each other till we dose off and she wakes me up with a text.) She sent me a message saying "I really like you. You're the sweetest guy i've ever met. But we never get to see each other and I don't like long distance."

Is there anything I can do?

Not unless you are able to close the distance. Long range relationships very, very rarely work. Ever.

[Faulty]

While I appreciate your forthrightness, in practice this isn't very different from how people actually behave. If you are good at or knowledgeable about something they find interesting, they give you their attention. If you're good at something they aren't interested in and nothing they are, they typically have little to do with you beyond the necessities of basic interaction. People who like intelligent people hang out with intelligent people. People who like baseball hang out with people who like baseball. Extend this to all applicable interests, and you'll have covered practically ever person they associate with (minus coworkers, family members, etc., of course). With few exceptions, people like people who have qualities they like or who have common interests.Other people are most often little more than names, faces, and the occasional gossip. I simply admit it, and find few people who hold my interest.

You disperage and demean people who aren't up to your personal bar. Also, if what you value is intelligence, and you're over-convinced of your brilliance, then that will be a turn off to girls. They'll feel like you devalue them, or see them as inferior.

[Tar Palantir]

You disparage and demean people who aren't up to your personal bar. Also, if what you value is intelligence, and you're over-convinced of your brilliance, then that will be a turn off to girls. They'll feel like you devalue them, or see them as inferior.

I don't devalue them. I simply see them as having little connection to me. Someone who shares no interests with me, and has none of the traits that I admire and enjoy in those around me, is someone who I would rather not associate with. It's not a matter of people who are at least this good are great, and people who aren't are worthless. It's people who are intelligent, artistic, creative, passionate about what they love, have a sense of humor that meshes well with mine, or enjoy the things I enjoy are people who I can see myself enjoying spending time with, and those who are none of those things at all are generally not the type of people who I enjoy spending time with. People who are most or all of these things, naturally, are people more after my own spirit, so to speak, and are people I like more. Simple as that. You can't tell me that there's nothing at all about people that differentiates between those you would be interested in, as friends or romantically. What do you do, pick names out of a hat? I know, through empirical observation, the qualities that are common in people who I prefer as friends, and don't spend too much effort on people whom I have nothing in common with, besides the common courtesies of basic social interaction.

[Tiger Duck]

What do you do, pick names out of a hat?

mostly convenience if you sit next to me on the first day of school I will consider you my friend till one of us quits.:smallamused:

[Syka]

I still think you sound like you are stuck up and if that comes across in writing, chances are the people around you also feel a bit as if you look down your nose at them. You may not intend it that way, you may see them as an equal, but if your general mode is "Well, so-and-so isn't up to snuff", even when you ARE OK with something but debating it...it'll bleed through.

My friend had no intention of condescending me. But he definitely came across thusly. If you deem only a handful up to your standards, chances are those few pick up on your superiority thing and are turned off by it- even if they are up to your standards doesn't mean they are as selective in their acquaintences.

[Sir_Norbert]

Okey, There is this girl. We've used to go to the same church but then she had to change so we barely ever get to see each other, but we text twenty four seven (no kidding we text each other till we dose off and she wakes me up with a text.) She sent me a message saying "I really like you. You're the sweetest guy i've ever met. But we never get to see each other and I don't like long distance."

Is there anything I can do?
Dude, I've dated someone on the other side of the world. Going to a different church is not long-distance.

[Tar Palantir]

I still think you sound like you are stuck up and if that comes across in writing, chances are the people around you also feel a bit as if you look down your nose at them. You may not intend it that way, you may see them as an equal, but if your general mode is "Well, so-and-so isn't up to snuff", even when you ARE OK with something but debating it...it'll bleed through.

My friend had no intention of condescending me. But he definitely came across thusly. If you deem only a handful up to your standards, chances are those few pick up on your superiority thing and are turned off by it- even if they are up to your standards doesn't mean they are as selective in their acquaintences.

I can see what you mean. I'll have to take this into consideration in the future. Thanks for your advice.

[Syka]

I do wish you luck. :) There's also the possibility that neither happened to be interested in you. I was 0-2 for relationships (ie, the only two guys I'd dated ended up cheating on/betraying me similarly), but upon evaluation it wasn't anything particular I was doing. It was bad luck (and no, they weren't the same guy- it was two very different situations).

So if you DO take a close look at yourself and there isn't anything, it's probably just bad luck/timing.

[Froogleyboy]

Dude, I've dated someone on the other side of the world. Going to a different church is not long-distance.

I know thats what I said.

UPDATE: now she wont respond to my text.

[Syka]

I'd wait until you don't feel the need to be in a relationship. It sounds like you'd be just hopping into a relationship not out of genuinely wanting on with the girl but because you feel you 'should' be in a relationship.

If you really want to date someone, I'd recommend the third as you seemed to have the least reservations about her and know her better, but would stay away from the first at all costs (assuming you know her to actually be unfaithful to partners, not just assuming she is). But that's my opinion if I HAD to choose.

Frankly, I'd wait it out until a relationship seems right rather than forcing it because you want A girlfriend. You JUST got out of a (presumably) serious relationship and there is no shame in taking a break from dating in general. I know both Oz and I were taking breaks from dating when we got together. It just seemed right in a way other prospects hadn't been.

[snoopy13a]

I know thats what I said.

UPDATE: now she wont respond to my text.

Sounds like she was dumping you in a nice way.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Malfunctioned:
1. She sounds more like a 'fling' than a 'thing'.
2. Possible.
3. So long as you don't pull a jerkass move, she sounds like a good match for you.

Froogleyboy: She's fighting against you on being together. It sucks, but you're done. When the hurting stops, move on.

[Coidzor]

Froogley Guy. Not much you can do once someone has made up their mind. Especially when they want to stop communicating whatsoever. Sorry you lost her as a friend, but that's life.

Mal. Ex sounds like a rather spurious character. Who says that kind of ****, really. gah.

1. sounds rather spurious as well. The circumstances surrounding her alone seem to be bleck for any kind of commitment as well as the culture you two seem to share if this kind of thing is common enough.

2. sounds like a maybe. *shrug*

3. *shrug* Go for it if you like her.

No sense waiting anyway, and as long as you're not a ******, then whatever happens happens.

Your friend kinda sounds like a drag, but maybe I'm misinterpretting how this all went down between the two of you in discussing these women.

[xPANCAKEx]

Tar Palantir

dear lord - you definately over analyse a lot of stuff. May i suggest you serve yourself a BIG of humble pie, because your social graces appear to be lacking somewhat.

You're still riding on intellect, when a lot of what goes on in relationships can appear counter-intuitive, even irrational. Being knowledgable isn't good enough - its also about how you convey that knowledge. If you're too overbearing with your vast array of knowledge then you'll come across as a bit of an ass.

Prime example - i like climbing. Wait. I LOVE climbing. I also love talking to people about climbing, especially those more experianced/better skilled than myself. But theres a guy i know from clubs, we got talking the other day, climbing came up, and all he seemed to want to do was reel off information. This just bored the hell out of me.

When someone can bore you about someone you're into, its a bad sign. So even if you are a know-it-all, and even on the odd occasion when you disagree with something, just let it slide.

Infact - just don't have "debates" with girls you want to date. Probably for the best.

sometimes the best conversations are not about who is right, or the persuit of intellectual truth... but more just about exchanging ideas. I know you say you don't do subtlety, but ponder this one. When you get the difference, it will be a good start

Besides - with this vast array of knowledge you have, let them come to you, and slowly prize out all the answers they seek. Make them work for it (just a bit) - and don't give it all away too freely


Froogleyboy

You could always offer to actually MEET UP - which begs the question why haven't you done so before now? If she says no, or makes it difficult, then put some distance between the two of you

Malfunctioned

why does your friends opinion matter so much? If you genuinely like a girl, then just go for it.

[Syka]

So, evidently Girl was displeased with our not attending her going away party tonight. Very displeased. It was mildly amusing, actually, given Oz is SICK, has to work in the morning, and we were having a severe storm during the time we'd have to drive the 30-40 minutes to the party. But according to one of her (evidently) drunk texts she's really pissed at him for not showing and other stuff that he's got no idea about. :smallsigh:

I so called this one.

Even our good friend whose birthday party we had missed understood the whole "sick and have to work in the morning" thing. And, judging by my pretty calm outward reaction and shockingly only minor paranoid Crazy Brain that was easily controlled, my new medicine is working well. I like being sane again. This was a good test of it. :smallbiggrin:

Note: do NOT take a normal dose of the Pill if you have PMS. Low dose is where it's at.


I will be pissed, though, if I get woken up by Oz 'cause he got woken up by a drunken call/text at 4am...not at him, the caller lol

[Coidzor]

Ahhh... That kind of friend... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnluckyChildhoodFriend)

Well, I guess you'll just have to bone up on the signs of attraction and people watchin'...

...

...

:smallconfused:...Why on earth would you want to risk messing with your birth control like that, Syka?:smalleek:

[Kobold_Love]

So this very attractive, yet very intelligent, girl was nice to me all semester long and helped me pass the class.

At the end she even asked me my final grade and gave me a high five. Extremely nice girl despite her great looks (quite popular in the class).

Needless to say I am a bit confused. The complete opposite of the treatment I usually get from such women.

Perhaps she felt bad for me because I was struggling in the class?

[billtodamax]

...Yes, maybe. I think you might have an admirer.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Sure-fire way to find an answer.
Flirt, but expect nothing.

[Serpentine]

Um... I think maybe she thinks you're friends?

[Kobold_Love]

...Yes, maybe. I think you might have an admirer.

Highly doubt it. I did not ask, but I believe she had a bf. Even if she didn't and wanted one there were plenty of suitors there to have been picked from. She was very talkative/flirty with two pretty built and attractive fellows, and there were others obviously interested. I was not, though she made for good conversation, especially since the professor was a bore.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Um... I think maybe she thinks you're friends?

I like my flirting idea more.
And if she does just want to be your friend, for <Insert Diety of choice here>'s sake, be friends!

[Kobold_Love]

Um... I think maybe she thinks you're friends?

Really?

But girls like that don't tend to have guys like me in their circles. At least none that I have seen. That is kinda what surprises me about the whole incident. Seen some guys tricked nasty by believing otherwise back in high school.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Studies show women are more attracted to personality and intelligence than to physique - the latter just helps sweeten the deal. I know this is 100% true for me, I don't know a single girl who would disagree with me.

Not saying she does like you, but I wouldn't discount it out of principle. At the very least, she considers you a friend of sorts. The big threat is more peer pressure than anything, I guess.

[OverdrivePrime]

Um... I think maybe she thinks you're friends?

This is the safest assumption. Then again, maybe you've just got a low self-image and she sees through it, or possibly even finds it endearing. Is she someone you'd want to be just friends with, or would it be hard for you to be friend without wanting romance?

[raitalin]

Here one of the things I find trickiest about females:

Sometimes, the less interested you are, the more interested they are. Especially attractive women that are used to having men fawn all over them. Especially attractive intelligent women that are used to having idiots fawn all over them.

Now, this trait can range from the completely reasonable (it gets boring having people treat you differently because you're an attractive female) to the neurotic (self-esteem issues, generally linked to their father, cause them to be more interested in guys that show less interest).

My suggestion? Ask her to lunch. Specifically lunch, its nice and non-committal. Could be a friendly thing, could lead to more. Play it by ear when you get one-on-one time.

[Serpentine]

So this very attractive, yet very intelligent, girl was nice to me all semester long and helped me pass the class.

At the end she even asked me my final grade and gave me a high five. Extremely nice girl despite her great looks (quite popular in the class).

Needless to say I am a bit confused. The complete opposite of the treatment I usually get from such women.

Perhaps she felt bad for me because I was struggling in the class?She talked to you in class. She helped you study - maybe you helped her back, even if it was just by explaining things (a very useful way of learning). She enquired after you after the class was over, and initiated a friendly gesture.

SHE'S YOUR FREAKING FRIEND. A good portion of my friendships - male and female - started in pretty much this exact same way. Don't overthink it, just go with it. Suggest a friendly meet-up. Lunch is a good one. If you're so inclined, maybe ask her out at some point, but don't assume that that's what she wants.
To be honest, I'm oddly offended that you claim to know what sort of guys "girls like that" want to be friends with <.<

[Salt_Crow]

I agree with Serpentine. Nice people are just nice. That doesn't necessarily mean (nor does it often coincide with) the presence of an underlying motive. Of course, this doesn't mean you can't advance the relationship further! But as people go, you can't always take things for granted either.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Serp is right. The possibility for a relationship is there but that sort of thing can only be taken slowly. Something that's built up to, not a sudden jump. Right now she clearly views you as a friend. Be her friend as well, and be good friends. Don't push things, maybe offer to spend time (in a friendly way, NOT a date), and that's the best chance you probably have of getting anything serious out of it, if that's what you want.

If it's not what you want, do it anyway. Good friends are hard to find these days.

[Totally Guy]

But girls like that don't tend to have guys like me in their circles.

Stop putting yourself and her in boxes, labelling them and then forming your conclusions based upon you own perceived filing system for said boxes.

It's actually pretty rude. Know yourself and know your friends and the answers should be forthcoming.

[Swordguy]

Attractive and intelligent woman interested in a gamer?

It's a trick, get an axe.

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/images/evil-dead-2-ash-the-killer.jpg


(Kidding, obviously. :smallbiggrin: Try just being friends first, and THEN see if anything develops. Good luck!)

[Serpentine]

:frown:

My first (real) boyfriend played Warhammer, my ex was my co-DM, and my present Boy is playing Worms with someone over the internet on his Playstation.

:smallfrown:

Oh! Oh wait, you specified "attractive and intelligent". Right, fair enough then. Proceed :smallwink:

[Kobold_Love]

She talked to you in class. She helped you study - maybe you helped her back, even if it was just by explaining things (a very useful way of learning). She enquired after you after the class was over, and initiated a friendly gesture.

SHE'S YOUR FREAKING FRIEND. A good portion of my friendships - male and female - started in pretty much this exact same way. Don't overthink it, just go with it. Suggest a friendly meet-up. Lunch is a good one. If you're so inclined, maybe ask her out at some point, but don't assume that that's what she wants.
To be honest, I'm oddly offended that you claim to know what sort of guys "girls like that" want to be friends with <.<


I am sorry I offended you. Again, it is just that I have seen guys be tricked and ridiculed for believing otherwise. I myself included.


And I find it interesting how everyone assumes I automatically want a relationship with her of the dating kind. I am a strong believer in that men and women can just be friends, and I have been fortunate to have had female friends in the past. It's just that this was the type that usually would not even talk to me unless required to, so I found it surprising. And trust me, she had no romantic interests in me.

[OverdrivePrime]

It's just that this was the type that usually would not even talk to me unless required to, so I found it surprising. And trust me, she had no romantic interests in me.

Sounds great. If you're pro-friend, and she seems cool, then go ahead and add her to your friend list. I don't see a down side here, particularly if you're not looking for anything beyond friendship.

[Serpentine]

And I find it interesting how everyone assumes I automatically want a relationship with her of the dating kind. I am a strong believer in that men and women can just be friends, and I have been fortunate to have had female friends in the past. It's just that this was the type that usually would not even talk to me unless required to, so I found it surprising. And trust me, she had no romantic interests in me.You're right, I did assume that. I inserted an "is this girl interested in me?" into your post, when in fact there was actually a "did this girl only talk to me out of pity?"

I still find it... distasteful, I guess, that you keep on using words/phrases like "such women", "girls like that" and "the type". There might be a trend (though you haven't given us much of any idea as to what this "type" is), but a trend is not a rule.
Oh, and also: "very attractive, yet very intelligent"? "Extremely nice girl despite her great looks"? Come on, really? I know that there have been studies that have shown that attractive women (and men) tend to be less pleasant or whatever than less attractive women, but nice and intelligent are not mutually exclusive to good looks.

Girls like that...
Girls like that don't go for
guys like us.
I still wanna see the facts.
But this time, she's serious.
She says there's too too many worlds,
too many worlds wrapped up in science fiction.

[Elderac]

It might also be the commonality of a shared experience, in your case the class. People tend to form bonds when placed together in a situation for a period of time. This is especially true if there is some sort of adversity (like passing the course) that must be overcome. Time is also a factor and, I think, 21 days is the magic number.

I experienced this several times in the Navy. When first assigned to a ship, I was associated with the crew, but by time we finished my first deployment with that ship, I was part of the crew. We may not have always liked each other, but we had that shared experience of the deployment.

Another place I have experienced this is with the various groups I have gamed with. Most of my best friends and people I keep in contact with are those with whom I have had the shared experience of gaming.

If you are not interested in persuing a relationship with this woman, accept that, for the time, you and she were friends. Now that the class is over, her reaction to you might be different. If you see her on campus, be friendly without expectations.

If you are interested in a relationship, the flirting route is not a bad way to go, and see where it goes from there.

[Mr.Moron]

Uh? It's a very silly question. Sounds to be like she was just being nice to someone in class. It doesn't have some kind of hidden meaning or special reason, it was just one person being friendly to another. The same as with any other person you might interact with in a positive manner in the context of a class. The fact that this person happens to have ovaries doesn't turn it into some kind of mysterious mystery of mysteriousness with secret motives.

Jeez Louise man. Just take it at face value.

[Syka]

There are varying dosages. I'd been on low dose brands for years but the one they put me on back in January was a 'normal' dose and made me feel completely insane. That's why I'm back on one of the low dose of hormones. They are still effective, just don't mess with my mind as much.

Actually the first one I'd been on was one my mom had years ago and she didn't get pregnant with me unt going off it.

But yeah all this is being done under doctors supervision. So I'm not chancing pregnancy or anything.

[Last_resort_33]

I'm sorry, This first post made me cringe almightily.

The assupmtion is that women (or girls) come in one of two catagories; attractive or intelligent. But you have found a girl (A GIRL no less) who is BOTH of these, not "attractive AND intellegent" but "attractive YET intelligent" and "Extremely nice DISPITE her great looks."

It's likely an attitude like this means that the majority of intellegent women stay away from you.

Sorry, but the thread title and your opening post sicken me.

[dish]

Serpy and LR_33 have both said it, but I have to agree: since when were attractiveness and intelligence mutually exclusive?

Get a grip, boy. She's friendly; you be friendly.

[Mr. Mud]

Here one of the things I find trickiest about females:

Sometimes, the less interested you are, the more interested they are. Especially attractive women that are used to having men fawn all over them. Especially attractive intelligent women that are used to having idiots fawn all over them.

Now, this trait can range from the completely reasonable (it gets boring having people treat you differently because you're an attractive female) to the neurotic (self-esteem issues, generally linked to their father, cause them to be more interested in guys that show less interest).

My suggestion? Ask her to lunch. Specifically lunch, its nice and non-committal. Could be a friendly thing, could lead to more. Play it by ear when you get one-on-one time.

This. Although Lunch is a one-way ticket to the friend zone, it can be the first step of anything that may or may not come of this. Flirt a little, and see what you get back from it... I'd also over to pay for it :smalltongue: (she'll most probably think of you covering lunch one of three ways:

1.) He's paying?! He must like me! Squee!
2.) He's paying? What a nice guy *friendly smile*
3.) Why is he paying? Is he expecting something more of this? Or is it because I helped him in class?)

Also, how long ago did school end? Have you been keeping in Contact?

Disclaimer: Advice may or may not make situation worse. Common signs of decline are exhaustion, nausea, paranoia and itchy hands, and in serve cases, a slap to the face. Use this at your own risk

[Mr.Moron]

.....friend zone.......

Oh god.

What's next a link to "Ladder Theory"?

[AstralFire]

Oh god.

What's next a link to "Ladder Theory"?

I don't drink, but I was very tempted to make a drinking game for the words 'friend zone' on social message boards.

[Faulty]

@ Tal:

One thing I'd like to add to what Syka and Pancake said: stop with the "I know through empirical evidence", "there's a 30% chance", etc stuff. Human relations are not that precise or logical. A lot of things aren't. Giving off an aura that you run on pure logic is not going to be an attractive quality to most people, and is out of touch with reality. Also, earlier on you said that differences can give you reasons to hate other people, and you also described people you're not interested in in grossly inferior terms. That problem comes off to other people, and you need to watch that. Even if you don't share much in common, you can be at least aquianted with people, and no matter what you think of other people, as long as we live in a community, we're all interconnected.

[Faceist]

Christ, I hate the friend zone. It's like the negative zone. There's no escape.

Anyway, I think you're being overly analytical. If someone's being friendly, male or female, just take it at face value and be friendly back. If she's faking it to try and harvest your organs, a knife helps, I guess.

[Mr. Mud]

Oh god.

What's next a link to "Ladder Theory"?

The friend zone is a very real thing. It's like hell. And Uwe Boll films.
THERE. IS. NO. SALVATION.

:smalltongue:.

[Faulty]

So this very attractive, yet very intelligent

Extremely nice girl despite her great looks (quite popular in the class).

I suggest you never mention that to her. She'd probably feel insulted.

Also, she probably thinks you're friends. That sounds like friendly behaviour.


Christ, I hate the friend zone. It's like the negative zone. There's no escape.

There is no friend zone.

The fact that people think all women's brains work so simply is really insulting.

[Faceist]

Nobody mentioned womens brains working simply. If anything, they're working on a plane men can only dream of. But denying the existence of the Friends Zone is stupid, it clearly does exist, and once you're in there there's no getting out. I suspect you have yet to encounter it. When you get in, I'll lend you some ciggies, it's how we buy goods in here.

[paddyfool]

Kobold_love,

Whatever silly games some particular pretty girls may have played in high school, don't let them jade you too much with future encounters with girls who happen to look about as good as or better than them. Compare yourself, and how you act, to the broad pool of blokes who look vaguely similar to yourself, and you'll see what I mean.

In my time, I was made fun of in those self-same silly games in my early/mid-teens, but practically never afterwards - people grow out of them, generally. A lot of people get nicer as they stop being adolescents, and yes, that includes the "beautiful people".

Also, I second everything about your assumptions. You've got to let go of this prejudice; it'll only hold you back, and it could make you be very unfair to others.

[Last_resort_33]

She's not a game, she's a person. She will do what SHE wants, if she (for some reason) likes you, then that's what she thinks, and and if she doesn't like you, then no amount of playing social games will change her mind.

Really, honestly, a real person and not a sociological experiment to outwit!

[Moff Chumley]

They really actually are. Sorry.

[/xkcd fanboy]

[AstralFire]

The thing with the friend zone is its overuse as an excuse and a ubiquitous phenomenon, not its existence. It's the same sort of frustration I have with people who read TV Tropes so much they have difficulty making a conversation of plot without thinking in familiar trope terms, even when the tropes they're drawing on are barely relevant if at all.

Regarding the OP - she's a friend. Be friendly.

[Mr. Moon]

I think the point has already been made, (thanks, Serph), but let's repeat it one more time.
For luck.
Yeah.

The girl in question likely sees you as a friend, and is acting as such. And dispite what you see on TV, people in high school are allowed to have friends outside their stereotype. Shocking, I know. Take it, or over analyze the crap out of it and subsequintly ruin it. Your choice.

[ghost_warlock]

Oh god.

What's next a link to "Ladder Theory"?

Gak! XD Please no!


Christ, I hate the friend zone. It's like the negative zone. There's no escape.

Joking aside, this is simply untrue. The hypothetical friend zone1 is easy to escape. All you have to do is grab her in a tight embrace and try to plant a kiss on her lips. This action will immediately resolve any confusion regarding whether or not you're in the friend zone as well and push the relationship immediately "to the next level."

Of course, the "next level" may well be a restraining order or at least avoidance/awkwardness but at least you've figured out where you stand.

1Hypothetical as in mythological.

[RabbitHoleLost]

OH HAI RWA THREAD
I am back.
But not about the ex, no, not that.
You see, I met somebody. A friend of a friend, who is now part of our newly born gaming group. We've all hung out as a group, and, when the group includes the friend who introduced us, who is a lesbian, and movies, there were always snuggled between lesbian friend, maybe-love-interest, and me.
On my birthday, maybe-love-interest gave me a few kisses. Its hard to explain what kind of kisses they were, except that they were brisk, forceful surprises on my lips that made me blush, and, subsequently, made everyone else tease me for blushing.
And then he went home early because he felt sick.

It was later revealed that he admitted to having some kind of feelings for Lesbian friend, maybe perhaps. And that they also spent most of the day after together, having what lesbian friend described as "out there" talks.
And maybe-love-interest has not answered a text message from me.
'Course, it was only one and was about a movie I had seen with my friend that he had once said was good, but, you know, whatever.

I'm just really confused here :smallconfused:
Its not even that this interest I have in him is all that great, because I still don't know him very well, but, you know, its...agh. I don't understand people. If he liked lesbian friend, why would he kiss me several times? And, if he did have interest in me, why would he not text me back or not get on instant messenger or whatever?

[Quincunx]

My friends opinion counts for a lot to me as she is pretty like a sister to me. The conversation between us pretty much went like this:

......
Me: And then she told me that I should try and find another girlfriend.
Friend: So that shouldn't be too hard
Me: Huh? I don't know if you've noticed this in the last 10 years but I'm not really the most attractive guy.
Friend: Okay, are you blind?
Me: When was the last time any girls you know of were interested in me?
Friend: Pretty much the whole our group in high school
Me:What?
Friend: Seriously, dude, you are blind. They were practically throwing themselves at you.....
Me: Okay, just so I've got this clear, a load of girls wanted me back in high school and ignored them because I pretty much had no idea that they did? Just tell me if there's anyone in college who's interested in me now.
Friend: Erm...I'm not too sure but I think there's a few.......(types the list)

I don't think she really sounds like a drag, but still, thanks for all the advice guys.

Just for everyone's benefit, this is an example of doing things right. First, once Malfunctioned found out he wasn't reading the signs of interest, he asked someone who was for input. Second, that person was willing to share them. Third, and maybe most important, he gave that female friend a chance to speak up if she was one of the ones chasing after him--look how impartial he was when asking about "anyone".

As for what you asked, it sounds safer to flirt with 2 before 3.

[Tar Palantir]

@ Tal:

One thing I'd like to add to what Syka and Pancake said: stop with the "I know through empirical evidence", "there's a 30% chance", etc stuff. Human relations are not that precise or logical. A lot of things aren't. Giving off an aura that you run on pure logic is not going to be an attractive quality to most people, and is out of touch with reality. Also, earlier on you said that differences can give you reasons to hate other people, and you also described people you're not interested in in grossly inferior terms. That problem comes off to other people, and you need to watch that. Even if you don't share much in common, you can be at least aquianted with people, and no matter what you think of other people, as long as we live in a community, we're all interconnected.

I just want to clarify that this isn't the way I always talk. This is simply how I talk/think when I'm applying pure intellect and logic to a situation. Given that the "go with your gut," intuition path failed to get me the girl both times, and it was intellect that allowed me to maintain the emotional breathing room necessary to avoid losing my friendship with the second girl and not lie weeping in a corner writing crappy emo poems, I decided to see what Mr. Intellect had to say about the whole situation. He certainly hasn't done a great job, but he's done a heckuva lot better than Mr. Intuition (heck, Mr. Coin Flip has a better record than Mr. Intuition). Just because I can go all Spock when necessary, doesn't mean I always act that way.

Why are relationships so difficult? It's like trying to play a game where you don't know the rules, you don't know where any of the pieces are, and your opponent is cheating. :smallsigh:

[Quincunx]

RabbitHoleLost: He kissed you. That's one notable move. It's still your turn to 'move'.

Tar Palantir: Logic would have pointed out that a sample size of two is worthless. If you must apply logic, ask out twenty women and re-analyze. Control the experiments such that you were equally likely to enjoy a date with any one of them.

[Serpentine]

Mr. Moron, I like you a bit more now.

If anyone's interested in my views on the subject (or want a refresher), see the links in my sig.

[AstralFire]

Quite accurate. I'd lament that no one will listen, but people do; it's just that in three years there'll be a fresh batch of teens who need to be enlightened.

[Tar Palantir]

Tar Palantir: Logic would have pointed out that a sample size of two is worthless. If you must apply logic, ask out twenty women and re-analyze. Control the experiments such that you were equally likely to enjoy a date with any one of them.

Indeed. However, I don't know twenty women by name in my age bracket who aren't in a committed relationship, much less that I would actually want to date. Now that I think about it, that might be something I should work on. That is a downside to having a small, tightly-knit social circle as opposed to a large, expansive one. Doubtless I will meet new people when I start college less than a month from now, which should give me ample opportunity to increase my sample size (although less so than I would like; my college has less than a thousand people, approximately the same as my former high school).

[Syka]

Relationships are so difficult because it involves two fallible humans who only know their own thoughts and feelings with certainty.

They can be really hard but there is usually a balance.

[Pyrian]

...who only know their own thoughts and feelings with certainty....And all too frequently aren't too clear on their own thoughts and feelings, from what I've seen. :smallamused:

[xPANCAKEx]

Tar Palantir

stick with mr instinct - he may have faultered in recent times, but in human history he has a FAR more illustrious track record...

sadly there is no sure fire way of making things work, you just have to wing it. The more you think about things, the less natural it will seem - no one likes an awkward guy.

RabbitHoleLost

you could just call him up and ask to hang out - see what the vibe is then?

[Nevrmore]

First of all, I fail to see what the point of this thread is. But it gives me something to rant at, so. Secondly,


So this very attractive, yet very intelligent, girl was nice to me all semester long and helped me pass the class.

At the end she even asked me my final grade and gave me a high five. Extremely nice girl despite her great looks (quite popular in the class).

Needless to say I am a bit confused. The complete opposite of the treatment I usually get from such women.

Perhaps she felt bad for me because I was struggling in the class?
Here's what you probably wanted this post to look like:

"Man it's so weird that pretty, smart girls ar einto me, lol right?"

Here's what I read:

"I have low self-esteem. Compliment me."

But maybe not. If not, you are being oversensitive because of a...good situation? A nice girl wants to be friends with you and you're complaining and being paranoid about it?

Also, directed towards the thread in general:

There is no "friend zone." The "friend zone" is an invention originally made up by wusses too afraid or inept to try and get anywhere with a girl as a justification for why they aren't getting anywhere with a girl. It's an excuse for them to shift the blame to the girl so they can have a reason to whine about their problems with starting relationships without looking like losers.

[Kaelaroth]

There is no friend zone.

The fact that people think all women's brains work so simply is really insulting.

There's a fricking friend zone. It doesn't just apply to relationships involving women, either.

[Nevrmore]

And thus you can easily interchange "justification for why they aren't getting anywhere with a girl" with " justification for why they aren't getting anywhere with a boy."

[RabbitHoleLost]

There is no "friend zone." The "friend zone" is an invention originally made up by wusses too afraid or inept to try and get anywhere with a girl as a justification for why they aren't getting anywhere with a girl. It's an excuse for them to shift the blame to the girl so they can have a reason to whine about their problems with starting relationships without looking like losers.

Sometimes, in the depths of Nevrmore's general darkly vicious nature on these forums, we get nuggets of actual thought-provocation that are helped by his blunt ways.

I rather like these times.

This is just a long drawn-out way of saying thanks for the thought, Nevr, and I found myself actually nodding along as I read it.

[SilverClawShift]

You can enjoy someones company without wanting to have sex with them.

Why people feel compelled to call that the "Friend Zone" and treat it like it's some kind of act of war is beyond me.

[Mr.Moron]

There's a fricking friend zone. It doesn't just apply to relationships involving women, either.

The "Friend Zone" at least as the term is commonly used is a concept specifically invented by whiny males to try and excuse their failure with the opposite sex to themselves.

"Oh woe is me. For I would be such a wonderful partner were not foolish ovary-aliens systematically making making me a friend for the express purpose of excluding me from relationships."



Mr. Moron, I like you a bit more now.


Time to make thread reading too much into this. "There's this woman on the internet...."

[Perenelle]

I wouldnt go jumping to conclusions if I were you. Chances are she was just being nice, and you should be nice to her. If you go making assumptions like this then you might end up breaking the friendship that you're making with her. Girls and Guys can be just friends with each other, I have plenty of friends that are guys that I'm not interested in at all, or will ever be interested in for that matter (plus the fact that I have a bf). If i were you i'd be friends with her and just see what happens. Its easier for the both of you that way. :smallsmile:

I'd also drop the stereotypes, all they do is limit the bonds you could make with people that are different than you.

[ZeroNumerous]

There is no friend zone.

The fact that people think all women's brains work so simply is really insulting.

Bubkiss.

There's a friend zone and it's something used by every single person in the world. There are people you simply would not date, ever, because the idea is an alien concept to you. Why? Possibly because they remind you of your father/mother/brother/sister/aunt/uncle/other relative. Or because they have that one really annoying habit but everything else is fine. Who cares about the reasoning? Gender is irrelevant in that as it's simply a mind-set applied due to time spent with that individual.

Is it possible to go from Friendship to Relationship? Yes. Does this mean there's no such thing as a "friend zone"? No.

[paddyfool]

As another xkcd fanboy, I'd like to suggest that anyone complaining of being in "the friend zone" consider the potential creepiness of their role in the situation (http://www.xkcd.com/513/). OK, we can all understand the (intense) frustration of being strongly attracted to a friend, whom you spend a lot of time with, and who doesn't return your feelings. But you'll get no sympathy if you haven't at least tried to make it something more in a genuine, positive, way. And if you haven't, also, genuinely done your level best to honour your friendship throughout.

On the bright side, if your position is clear, even if the chances look slim, it might still work out. Two friends of mine were in the situation where one wanted to make it something more, and the other didn't, for a couple of years or so (in an entirely above-board, non-creepy way). They're now a very happy, married couple, and I only had to put them in the path of a charging buffalo once :smallwink:.

[Quincunx]

I call bupkis on ZeroNumerous calling bupkis. That is the "Not if we were the last two people on earth zone" and has nothing to do with friendship.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Is it possible to go from Friendship to Relationship? Yes. Does this mean there's no such thing as a "friend zone"? No.

You just contradicted yourself.
By saying that the friend bin exists, you are stating that friends do not date.
If I have a friend that's interested in me, and I'm not interested in them, its not because they're a friend. Its because I'm just not interested.

Unlike what everyone else says, I think the friend bin is used by the person being pursued as an excuse, a way of trying to nicely let someone down.
Instead of saying "I'm just not interested in you that way, or attracted to you", women (or men) get supersensitive and state "Well, you're just too close to me as a friend, and I wouldn't want to lose that friendship with you."

Being a friend does not eliminate you from being a romantic interest. Just not being their type does.

[Vmag]

This is all such a very silly situation. To think that, in this day and age, people still cry "GIRL!" and dive for cover.

All I need to know is that high-fives are involved. Let me tell you from experience, man gals don't give high fives if they don't mean it.

The issue here is merely one of social insecurity and a lack of self-confidence. If you're really worried about this girl's intent, and your confidence is really this lacking, then satisfy yourself developing a friendly relationship. No harm in that, and you get to enjoy her company, right? There's no need to prove Oscar Wilde every step of the way, man.

If you are interested in this gal, confidence is really the only thing you need. It means clearing your mind of all strategems and tactics, and forgetting any notion of her playing games or being coy.


Life really isn't as complicated as people make it for themselves.

[ZeroNumerous]

I call bupkis on ZeroNumerous calling bupkis.

Bubkiss.

That doesn't change the fact that you can hang out with someone and not have the thought of dating them cross your mind. Sure, I agree that it's not the end-all be-all anti-relationship zone, but to say that makes it's existence a myth is ridiculousness to the extreme.


By saying that the friend bin exists, you are stating that friends do not date. If I have a friend that's interested in me, and I'm not interested in them, its not because they're a friend. Its because I'm just not interested.

You didn't read the rest of my statement. There are people you wouldn't date, and I didn't say it was because they were friends with you. This means there are people whom you could not be interested in having a relationship regardless of their own attraction. As such that makes the only possible reactions you'd have with that person being friendship or non-interaction. Therefore, there is a friend zone.

[Nevrmore]

You can enjoy someones company without wanting to have sex with them.

Why people feel compelled to call that the "Friend Zone" and treat it like it's some kind of act of war is beyond me.
I'll explain it to you, in detail. It's been said before by others over the internet, and more eloquently than I am about to put it, but it bears repeating.

You see, you say that you "can enjoy someone's company without wanting to have sex with them," whereas a very healthy percentage of the males that you are friends with enjoy your company exactly because they want to have sex with you. The problem is twofold for them, however; 1) It's a simple biological fact that, in general, women have a lower sex drive than men do, and, somewhat more importantly, 2) the type of people who become friends with women for the ultimate goal of getting to know them Bible-style are usually emotionally manipulative creeps who don't see any harm in creating a sham friendship with a girl that is nothing more than a veil of their true intentions and desires.

What happens, then, is this: These manipulative douchebags continuously get nowhere with the girl because of their general social ineptitude, never proceeding past the first stage of their multi-tiered plan to get laid (1: Become friends, 2: ??? 3: Profit, as it were.) And so they created a theory to try and explain why it wasn't working: The Friend Zone. In their world, The Friend Zone is the pratfall of any nice, genuinely caring and sensitive guy who only wants to treat a girl right, because to them girls only fall for badass boys who will treat them like crap. Thus, any guy who treats them "well" and "with respect" are not seen as relationship material, and instead tossed off into the mystical Friend Zone where no man can ever escape. This magical place is what has been labeled as a pandemic among potential relationships, instead of the real virus, which is creepy a-holes who hide their true feelings of lust behind masks of friendliness.

This is becoming somewhat longer than I intended, so let me append a summary.

If you believe in The Friend Zone, stop right now. Take your hand off the mouse and keyboard, put it at your side, and think about your life. If you truly, truly believe that you can be labeled as a friend by a potential love interest and never escape from that prison, then chances are that you show shades of the same emotional manipulation as I have described. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you can't be friends with a girl/guy/alien that you have a crush on. I'm saying that you can't view that friendship as an obstacle in your path to establishing a relationship. And I'm definitely not saying that you can use that friendship as a tool to further your own, sexually-driven goals. Because if you do, you are a douchebag. Plain and simple.

[Vmag]

Bubkiss.

...the end-all be-all anti-relationship zone...

That's another thing I forgot to cover.

Abandon all children's games, ye who wish to enter.

[RabbitHoleLost]

You didn't read the rest of my statement. There are people you wouldn't date, and I didn't say it was because they were friends with you. This means there are people whom you could not be interested in having a relationship regardless of their own attraction. As such that makes the only possible reactions you'd have with that person being friendship or non-interaction. Therefore, there is a friend zone.

Yes, but the "friend zone" or "friend bin" theory states that you will never be in a relationship with someone if they regard you as a friend, because you are a friend.
What you are stating exists is not the friend zone, but something else.

[Mr.Moron]

Being a friend does not eliminate you from being a romantic interest. Just not being their type does.

Also an Excluding Factor: Being otherwise their type but having a pair of drippy nostrils growing from your forehead.

[FoE]

Dames is trouble, kid. You just can't win with them. Do what I do and channel your urges into a hobby ... like reading various things you find on the ground, or arson.

[Quincunx]

Yes, but the "friend zone" or "friend bin" theory states that you will never be in a relationship with someone if they regard you as a friend, because you are a friend.
What you are stating exists is not the friend zone, but something else.

Zero's got the info now (and I covered that point already). It's up to him to realize he's wrong.

[FoE]

Abandon all children's games, ye who wish to enter.

Even children's card games?

[Vmag]

Even children's card games?

Just when it comes to romances, social norms, etc. Most people torment themselves over what to do and not do because they think in terms of the games they play throughout their various levels of education, as opposed to thinking in terms of company-seeking humanity.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Zero's got the info now (and I covered that point already). It's up to him to realize he's wrong.

Yes, Mama Quin v.v

[Keld Denar]

My advice? Accept the friendship, but don't get too "into" her. Sound her out, ask her lots of questions about herself, her interests, and what she does outside of school. This serves 2 roles. It helps you determine if she really is into you, or if shes seeing someone else. If you find out that she is seeing someone, don't fret. Keep cultivating the friendship. Good friends are good to have, especially genuine friends in higher social situations, as they often stick up for you when you are in social trouble. This also plays into another facet. Girls LOVE to play match-maker. So she's seeing someone...big deal. She's probably not the "one" anyway, allow yourself to be pulled into the friends zone. Once your friendship is established, let on that you are interested in dating someone, but you don't know who would be a good match. Chances are she'll jump on that like a hobo on a ham sammich and start scemeing some sort of elaborate set-up encounter. This doesn't work if you throw yourself at her too hard though, since you'll always be thinking about her. Be a man about it, be optimistic, yet not overcommited, and accept that she might not be interested in you that way, so sound out all your options before you move too far one way or another.

If you are cool about it, you could end up with a good friend who will help you out both educationally and socially, a few dates that could develope into something fruitful, and will all that, increased confidence, better understanding of social situations, and possibly a great wardrobe consultant!

[Trog]

To start tossing around the friend zone... either as the admirer who has been rejected or as the rejector who has been admired... is really just perpetuating the fraudulent existence of this supposed "zone."

The friend zone is a convenient excuse for whoever uses it. No more.

[loopy]

To start tossing around the friend zone... either as the admirer who has been rejected or as the rejector who has been admired... is really just perpetuating the fraudulent existence of this supposed "zone."

The friend zone is a convenient excuse for whoever uses it. No more.

When I first started overcoming my shyness, it was a tool that helped me be more overtly flirtatious with girls. (as in "oh noes, don't want to be friend zoned!")

Luckily as soon as I learned a bit more about girls, I quickly realised that the whole idea is a load of crap.

[Pyrian]

It's up to him to realize he's wrong.He's not so much "wrong" precisely as talking about something completely different without realizing it.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Why are relationships so difficult? It's like trying to play a game where you don't know the rules, you don't know where any of the pieces are, and your opponent is cheating. :smallsigh:

You're killing me Spock! :smallbiggrin: For people like us, who initially think things to death in order to ensure that we have complete understanding of the subject, that actually is what's going on. The point of romance is to NOT think about it. You've got to try to switch off your higher functions (save for when you're keeping track of dates and looking for gifts) and practice going with instinct. It isn't easy (hell, I still don't have it down after years of working on it) but it is a vital skill to pick up.

RabbitHoleLost: I like you as a personality. You really seem to have an anime cliche 'pure heart' and that appeals to my inner idealist. That said, my guess is that he's attracted to you both. With the little detail that you've given, it's hard to suggest what move to make. Ignoring your thoughts on the matter for the moment, what is your gut first response telling you?

[Kobold_Love]

Um, I guess thank you for the advice on the "friend zone", and even more posts suggesting that I not jump to the conclusion that she likes me, but did no one read my last post?

Even on the very unlikely event that she was for some reason attracted to me on a romantic level, I was not to her. And I believe she had/has a bf.

And again, I am a strong believer in that men and women can be just friends.

[Mr. Mud]

*feels so atrociously bad for starting the friend zone debacle :smallfrown:. *

[Zeful]

Why are relationships so difficult? It's like trying to play a game where you don't know the rules, you don't know where any of the pieces are, and your opponent is cheating. :smallsigh:

Actually relationships are more like suddenly realizing your in the middle of a game you don't know the rules of, don't know where your pieces are, and are three moves away from losing.

It's the big reason (besides low self-esteem) that I can't get into relationships at all, I never realize I'm playing at all.

[Coidzor]

Of course women and men can just be friends.

Doesn't change the OMG WESTERMARCK EFFECT. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_(psychology)#Westermarck_effect)

So, yeah.

Well, seems like a potential friendship even if you're not into her. Otherwise, eh, slightly amiable acquaintances.


:smalleek: Also.... How did I miss this thread?! :smallconfused:

[ghost_warlock]

Um, I guess thank you for the advice on the "friend zone", and even more posts suggesting that I not jump to the conclusion that she likes me, but did no one read my last post?

Even on the very unlikely event that she was for some reason attracted to me on a romantic level, I was not to her. And I believe she had/has a bf.
Well, if you're not interested in her, then the presence of the bf is inconsequential. So, what you're left with if you're not interested in her, is either accept her actions at face value instead of trying to psychoanalyze her or just assume she's being friendly and get on with your life.

Or, I suppose, if she starts trying to become more than friends, simply tell her that you're not really interested in her that way.


And again, I am a strong believer in that men and women can be just friends.

I'd hope so because it's true! :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

^: You're always playing. BAM!

On my birthday, maybe-love-interest gave me a few kisses. Its hard to explain what kind of kisses they were, except that they were brisk, forceful surprises on my lips that made me blush, and, subsequently, made everyone else tease me for blushing.
And then he went home early because he felt sick.

It was later revealed that he admitted to having some kind of feelings for Lesbian friend, maybe perhaps. And that they also spent most of the day after together, having what lesbian friend described as "out there" talks.
And maybe-love-interest has not answered a text message from me.
'Course, it was only one and was about a movie I had seen with my friend that he had once said was good, but, you know, whatever.

Umm. If he knew he had feelings for a lesbian, do you not think he would be embarrassed by it? :smallconfused: That's, popularly, a fairly ignoble thing to have happen to you in the realm of guy-hood. It's sort of a combination WTF?, :smalleek:, :smallyuk:, :smallfrown:, and :smallfurious:.

So yeah, as has been said, the ball is in your court, and it's best not to start to freak out over a delay in replying to a text about a silly little movie.

I would definitely agree that it seems likely he likes the both of you. Unsure of how much and what type, but, there you go. Gotta find that out yerself. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Even on the very unlikely event that she was for some reason attracted to me on a romantic level, I was not to her. And I believe she had/has a bf.

Which plays into my last piece of advice. Does she have any hot friends she can hook you up with?!?!?

[Syka]

To the person who'd had the hickey problem: concealor is your friend. I just got one and put some on it. It still looked a bit red but more like a scratch. Then I wiped it off and realizes how bad it was lol. So I'd advise investing in concealor if it'll be regular.

And he did this right before we are supposed to dress up for his birthday dinner with his mom...sigh.

[Mr.Moron]

Which plays into my last piece of advice. Does she have any hot friends she can hook you up with?!?!?

Because being someones "Friend" in hopes of bedding people they know is soooo much better than doing it in hopes of bedding them. Can't people just interact for the sake of interacting without some ulterior motive?

I mean really. Contrary to what the Castrol commercials may lead you to believe thinking with the dipstick is not something to be encouraged.

[Coidzor]

He just wants to show you off is all.:smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Och, aye. It happens without being encouraged anyway, Jimmeh!

[FoE]

Which plays into my last piece of advice. Does she have any hot friends she can hook you up with?!?!?


Because being someones "Friend" in hopes of bedding people they know is soooo much better than doing it in hopes of bedding them.

Exactly! I like the way you think.

When life hands you lemons, try to see if the lemons have any cute lemon friends that are willing to give you their number.

That's what my dad used to say, anyway. When he wasn't drinking, that is. HA HA! Broken childhood.

[Yarram]

Maybe she's just a friendly person:smalltongue:. I know I do stuff like that all the time to guys and girls who I don't even like, but I want to make feel just a little bit happier.

[Serpentine]

You didn't read the rest of my statement. There are people you wouldn't date, and I didn't say it was because they were friends with you..Then you are not talking about the "friend zone". You're talking about "being friends, but not interested in anything "more"". The friend zone is explicitely the "this girl will not go out with anyone she sees as Friend, because someone she sees as Friend can only ever be considered Friend because he is Friend".

[arguskos]

Then you are not talking about the "friend zone". You're talking about "being friends, but not interested in anything "more"". The friend zone is explicitely the "this girl will not go out with anyone she sees as Friend, because someone she sees as Friend can only ever be considered Friend because he is Friend".
You know, the way you write that makes me thing this hypothetical girl is some cave person. "Ug is Friend, can never be Husband, because is Friend." Heh, that's funny.

[Serpentine]

Seems like that's how Friend Zone proponents think of girls :smallannoyed:

[FoE]

Reading through the whole thread now, it's amusing to see so much division and arguing in a thread that had no point whatsoever. Though certainly the opening post can be misconstrued that way, the OP apparently wasn't seeking advice on romance ... he just apparently felt the need to tell us some girl was nice to him. It's the rest of us who have made it THIS WHOLE THING.

Well, uh, good for you, OP? I guess? Do girls normally throw rocks at you? I would start wearing a helmet.

[Serpentine]

Well, you know what they say...

http://shivamantra.freeblog.hu/files/BoysAreStupid-759160.jpg

And yeah, I acknowledged my particular preconceptions regarding the OP.

[Coidzor]

Then you are not talking about the "friend zone". You're talking about "being friends, but not interested in anything "more"". The friend zone is explicitely the "this girl will not go out with anyone she sees as Friend, because someone she sees as Friend can only ever be considered Friend because he is Friend".

Hmm? No? Is because there is subset of traits for which girl values for friendship but also disqualify someone from being a potential mate. For example, Throg like Jane for talking but considers her too critical for anything other than maybe a one week stand but knows it would be too much of a bother to deal with the fallout from sleeping with her and leaving her. Or Elizabeth being appreciative of Charles for his support and conversation but finding him about as physically attractive as a jar of jam.

It's just that one of these is becoming a fixture in someone's life as a conceptually neutered friend such that any attempt to express interest in her romantically or sign that said friend is in fact a sexual entity causes severe mental anguish and trauma. Which is the infamous case, I think.

[Serpentine]

That's what I say in my sigged posts. But pretty much every case of the "friend zone" (or similar) being brought up, say, in the relationships thread, involves someone saying basically that the only reason some girl won't go out with them is because they're friends. Alternatively, it's someone warning a petitioner to make sure they "avoid falling into the friend bin". If a girl is interested in a guy, she's interested. It makes little to no difference whether they're friends, it has to do with the characteristics she seeks in a potential partner, as opposed to a friend (one possible exception being the case of people who effectively or actually grew up together, and so really consider each other to be more like siblings - probably at least something to do with that Westermark Effect that was mentioned). But, again, this has nothing to do with the "friend zone", which states that girls are only capable of thinking of guys as "Friend" or "Potential Mate", and if the guy isn't considered the latter it's because he's the former.

[Raistlin1040]

My two cents here, coming from a male(ish) perspective. I've almost always viewed girlfriends/romantic interests as both "Romantic Interest" and "(Best) Friend". I've found that when you find someone you really like/love, you get romance, obviously, but you also get a very close friend.

*May be missing the point. Dunno*

[Coidzor]

Maybe. I'm never quite sure anymore, really.

I always figured there was a sort of paradigm shift once an actual friendship was kindled rather than merely being acquaintances, and again if one became a close friend from being a regular-level friend. Something that changed the game enough the not only is momentum changed, but also interpersonal dynamics became more complicated due to a dimension of politics entering into things.

[Keld Denar]

About the most profound thing I've ever heard in marraige vows is thus: "Today, I marry my best friend". To classify someone too much a friend to enter a relationship with is ludacris.

[Ninja Chocobo]

^: You're always playing. BAM!

I dunno about him but I sure ain't.
This has been your periodical "NC makes a sarcastic remark in the RWA thread". Have a better day than me.

[Kaelaroth]

My thoughts on the friend zone, thing. Forgive me if I hadn't read the thing in Serp's signature before I made my last post. I disagree with it, but it might have made it easier for me to understand what people were going on about. And, forgive me further, I'm now going to talk about male-male relationships. Because a large amount of this discussion, to me, seems to have been about men thinking women are stoopid. Or vice versa. Whatevs.

Serp's example of the hypothetical friend bin:
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Serp's example of what she thinks is happening:
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. I really like you and enjoy being around you. But, I'm sorry, for one reason or another, you're just not the sort of person I'm interested in dating right now.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?

What I think's happening?
Boy: Hello! I like you. As in, you know, like.
Other BOY: Sorry. You are my friend. I really like you, and enjoy being around you. Perhaps, if we weren't friends, I'd consider dating you, because of various attractive properties you might have, but, at the moment, because of what's happened between us since we've been friends, I don't think we can ever date.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?
Other BOY: Not a bin, mate. It's a zone. I like you. We're friends. Us being friends has made me see you in a different light, perhaps, and I'm scared we'd ruin our friendship through massive awkwardness, or more.

I am not saying this happens every time. I'm saying it happens.

Someone will likely disagree. Go for it. :smallsmile:

[Nameless]

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

[Prowl]

Let's see a pic of the girl in question and that can help diagnose the issue.

[Serpentine]

Serp's example of the hypothetical friend bin:
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang....What I think's happening?
Boy: Hello! I like you. As in, you know, like.
Other BOY: Sorry. You are my friend. I really like you, and enjoy being around you. Perhaps, if we weren't friends, I'd consider dating you, because of various attractive properties you might have, but, at the moment, because of what's happened between us since we've been friends, I don't think we can ever date.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?
Other BOY: Not a bin, mate. It's a zone. I like you. We're friends. Us being friends has made me see you in a different light, perhaps, and I'm scared we'd ruin our friendship through massive awkwardness, or more.Those look exactly the same to me. Are you able to genuinely tell me that you would make a decision to not go out with someone based ENTIRELY on the fact that you're friends with them? By the way, I did actually put that question out there, and am still perfectly willing to hear people say yes, and explain why. So far, it's all pretty much been the "we've known each other for so long we're more like siblings, and it'd be weird" type thing, or "being friends with them has made me realise that we wouldn't make a good couple".

[Faulty]

Boy: Hello! I like you. As in, you know, like.
Other BOY: Sorry. You are my friend. I really like you, and enjoy being around you. Perhaps, if we weren't friends, I'd consider dating you, because of various attractive properties you might have, but, at the moment, because of what's happened between us since we've been friends, I don't think we can ever date.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?
Other BOY: Not a bin, mate. It's a zone. I like you. We're friends. Us being friends has made me see you in a different light, perhaps, and I'm scared we'd ruin our friendship through massive awkwardness, or more.

If the BOY actually thought Boy had attractive qualities, they wouldn't be just friends. "We're such good friends" is in most cases BS. That's BOY trying not to make Boy feel bad.


I suggest you never mention that to her. She'd probably feel insulted.

Can I draw notice to this again, Kobold? Really, the fact that you acted like actractiveness and intelligence/kindness are antithetical in a woman is really offensive and simple.

[Vizen]

Whats with all this hate over a so-called "Friend Zone"? There's no such thing. In my opinion (And correct me if I'm wrong) the term 'Friend Zone' is derived from the sentence "I like you, but only as a friend". Which as I understand is just a way to let you down gently instead of flat out saying "No".

Course, if you don't go for what I said there, consider this: The marriages that last the longest are because the couple don't see each other as boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife, etc.. They see each other as best friends.

[Shadowbane]

Studies show women are more attracted to personality and intelligence than to physique - the latter just helps sweeten the deal. I know this is 100% true for me, I don't know a single girl who would disagree with me.

I really hope that's right, 'cause it sure don't look that way over here in high school.

[Blackjackg]

Ye gods, when will gamers and forumites learn to stop categorizing things in such black-and-white terms, as if something is either nonexistent or omnipresent. Every human relationship is unique. To say that there either is or there isn't a Friend Zone ignores this basic fact.

I have known some women who, by personal mandate or unusually active schemata, choose not to date anyone they consider a friend. However, my greatest romantic relationships have grown out of friendships, so it goes the other way too.

The point is, if you are romantically interested in someone who considers you a friend, you might have hope, and you might not. Just like when you're romantically interested in someone who's not a friend.

I recognize this has nothing to do with the OP's original point, but the thread seems to have changed topics. To that self-same OP: Welcome to the wonderful world of adulthood, where friendships are not predicated on arbitrary social rankings. Yes, a beautiful, intelligent women may regard you fondly and want to be your friend. Or, if not, she may just be acting nicely toward you without an ulterior motive. High school is over, my friend, you don't need to jump at every shadow. Enjoy!

[RabbitHoleLost]

Update: So he did text me back. Apparantly, his mom is gone for the next few days,so we're going to try to have the gaming session at his house.
That...was it.
But, hey, atleast my crazy paranoid thoughts of him avoiding me were wrong.
My move.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Rabbit: Playfully punch him in the jeans as you warn him to never leave you hanging again or next time you'll have brass knuckles. :smallbiggrin:

[Faulty]

There's always the possibility that they don't date their friends because they're only their friends because they don't find them dateable.

[Kaelaroth]

Those look exactly the same to me. Are you able to genuinely tell me that you would make a decision to not go out with someone based ENTIRELY on the fact that you're friends with them?

Yes. I would. :smallsmile: Obviously, it's not an every-situation thing, but I can see myself doing it.


If the BOY actually thought Boy had attractive qualities, they wouldn't be just friends.
Sorry - could you explain this better? :smallconfused:


"We're such good friends" is in most cases BS. That's BOY trying not to make Boy feel bad.

Read what you wrote. I'm not saying the friend zone is an omnipresent thing in a every turndown. I'm saying, merely, there is one.

[Faulty]

punch him in the jeans

My, I do love you for this.

[Faulty]

Sorry - could you explain this better? :smallconfused:

The reason the two people are just friends is because BOY did not find Boy mate-worthy.

[Mr.Moron]

There's always the possibility that they don't date their friends because they're only their friends because they don't find them dateable.

Oh, now come on. People not dating people cause they aren't good enough to date? Sorry, that makes entirely too much sense.

I think it would be much better if we made up some nonsensical arbitrary nonsense about a magical plot to keep all these wonderful guys down by making them friends.

[Kaelaroth]

The reason the two people are just friends is because BOY did not find Boy mate-worthy.

And that's nonsensical. What if they meet when BOY is dating someone else? They become friends, rather than "mate", as you put it. All kinds of situations could stop them... yeah.

[Mr.Moron]

And that's nonsensical. What if they meet when BOY is dating someone else? They become friends, rather than "mate", as you put it. All kinds of situations could stop them... yeah.

The point is it's not a system of mutually exclusive categories. Someone could very well meet someone while in another relationship, becomes friends and a later date enter into relationship themselves.

Hell, that's what happened with one of my family members and his wife. They were part of a group of friends and were both dating different people at the time they met. In fact they went though of couple of relationships before finally going after each other.


Someone who is "Not with a 10-ft pole" is "Not with a 10-ft pole" regardless of if their current status is friend or not.

Someone who isn't "Not with a 10-ft pole" isn't regardless of if their current status is friend or not.

[Kaelaroth]

The point is it's not a system of mutually exclusive categories. Someone could very meet someone while in another relationship, becomes friends and a later date enter into relationship themselves.

"Could very well". Yes, I'm not saying that - I've hardly said that the friend zone is an omnipresent thing. In fact, I've already said it isn't. They could get together, yes. They could be turned down for other reasons, yes. They could be in "the friend zone", yes.

[Mr.Moron]

"Could very well". Yes, I'm not saying that - I've hardly said that the friend zone is an omnipresent thing. In fact, I've already said it isn't. They could get together, yes. They could be turned down for other reasons, yes. They could be in "the friend zone", yes.

The entire concept of the "Friend Zone" is that someone being a friend inherently rules out any possibility of a more intimate relationship. You can't be using the term "Friend Zone" and say it's possible for a female to later get romantic with someone she considers a friend.

It's like trying to redefine the word "Gun" so you can claim you didn't shoot somebody with one when you're standing over their body holding a smoking firearm.



The entire point of the "Friend Zone" is idea that all (or at least the vast majority) of female human beings have in place a rigid system of "Friend" and "[Bleep]able" that make the two entirely mutual exclusive. They use this system to persecute "Nice Guys" and reward "Jerks"

[Kaelaroth]

Surely, one relationship might fail due to the presence of the friend zone, and one might not? Not all friendships are going to stop becoming romantic relationships due to being in the friend zone, but some may very well -no?

[Mr.Moron]

SNot all friendships are going to stop becoming romantic relationships due to being in the friend zone

No! That's exactly what the "Friend Zone" philosophy states: "Being a friend and becoming a romantic partner are mutually exclusive. If two people are friends the female rules out all chance of romance ever, automatically, regardless of the individuals or circumstances involved. Period end of story, friends only. No matter what . This is universal or near-universal."

That is what "Friend Zone" means. There is no "maybe" or "some" when dealing with the "Friend Zone".

[Hadrian_Emrys]

My, I do love you for this.

I never get sick of hearing/reading those words. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaelaroth]

No! That's exactly what the "Friend Zone" philosophy states: "Being a friend and becoming a romantic partner are mutually exclusive. If two people are friends the female rules out all chance of romance ever, automatically, regardless of the individuals or circumstances involved. Period end of story, friends only. No matter what . This is universal or near-universal."

That is what "Friend Zone" means. There is no "maybe" or "some" when dealing with the "Friend Zone".

Then this debate was pointless. :smalltongue: We're working offof different definitions.

[Faulty]

There's really no friend zone. You're interested in someone at a certain point or you aren't. It has nothing inherently to do with friendship.

[Mr.Moron]

There's really no friend zone. You're interested in someone at a certain point or you aren't. It has nothing inherently to do with friendship.

That doesn't stop people from believing in it. At least we didn't have any "Nice Guys" show up.

[Faulty]

Those people drive me up the wall, across the sealing, down the opposite wall, across the room and back up the wall again.

[Pyrian]

...Do you have video? 'Cause that sounds awesome! :smallcool:

[xPANCAKEx]

Rabbit: Playfully punch him in the jeans as you warn him to never leave you hanging again or next time you'll have brass knuckles. :smallbiggrin:

yes - because none of THAT would make you seem crazy/irrational/lacking in patience

[Hadrian_Emrys]

How many :smallbiggrin:'s do I have to use to not be taken seriously?

[xPANCAKEx]

my bad - my sarcasm detector is rubbish today

[Faulty]

I'm still editing Benny Hill music into the video, I'll get it to you later. :smalltongue:

[The Extinguisher]

You know what's funny. I learned of this "Friend Zone" through the internet, this forum specifically. I've never heard anyone talk about it, and all my relationships have grown out of friendships, so I've never, ever noticed anything like it.

Just goes to show, eh.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

:smalleek:

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

I'm all smiles, no 'sorry' needed!

[ThunderCat]

Then this debate was pointless. :smalltongue: We're working offof different definitions.According to wiki "The friend zone (or friendship zone) is a popular psychology concept found in many texts geared towards a male audience about "dating advice." It refers to the situation where the female has begun to view a male as a friend only and not a potential suitor, a psychological classification supposedly exceptionally difficult to undo."

This seems to suggest that 'friend zone' refers to how a female supposedly wont date a male because she's categorised him as a friend. Imo, BS. A good deal of my relationships have grown out of friendships, and the traits I value in my friends are very close to those I value in my romantic partners. Of course there are differences, especially when it comes to appearance, but generally, people who make friends with me have a much higher chance of getting my romantic interest because of it.

Also, as someone who's been hurt more by 'friends' turning out to have sexual motivations, than by anyone who was ever honest about their intent, this is so QFT:

What happens, then, is this: These manipulative douchebags continuously get nowhere with the girl because of their general social ineptitude, never proceeding past the first stage of their multi-tiered plan to get laid (1: Become friends, 2: ??? 3: Profit, as it were.) And so they created a theory to try and explain why it wasn't working: The Friend Zone. In their world, The Friend Zone is the pratfall of any nice, genuinely caring and sensitive guy who only wants to treat a girl right, because to them girls only fall for badass boys who will treat them like crap. Thus, any guy who treats them "well" and "with respect" are not seen as relationship material, and instead tossed off into the mystical Friend Zone where no man can ever escape. This magical place is what has been labeled as a pandemic among potential relationships, instead of the real virus, which is creepy a-holes who hide their true feelings of lust behind masks of friendliness.

[Jalor]

I suppose I might as well try to contribute to this rapidly declining conversation.

In my experience, the "Friend Zone" is not the type of thing it is made out to be. There's no arbitrary "friend" group into which girls place the guys who genuinely care about them. There are, however, guys whom a particular girl would not consider a relationship with and only treat as platonic friends. It's not a black-and-white situation by any means, which Kaelaroth has been trying to explain. Is it the use of the words "there is a friend zone" that upsets so many people?

I've generally found that if a girl repeatedly rejects platonic friends who are actually decent people (rather than sleazy guys looking for cheap sex) but then gets into unhealthy relationships, it's a lack of maturity or some deep-seated problem, not the Friend Zone. These people do exist though; they're just probably not worth your time.

I've seen plenty of the issue; I have comforted a sobbing female friend, who I actually cared about, while she complained about how she didn't know any decent guys, nobody valued her, and everyone just wanted to get into her pants. I felt like I was on a frakking sitcom. Needless to say, she was a special case. Most of my failed attempts at relationships were a result of my being labeled "creepy", not The Friend Zone. To be honest, I can only think of one time where anybody could even cite The Friend Zone. In that case, we had known each other for years and she actually said "it would be like incest". Coidzor already linked to the wiki page of that phenomenon.

As for the OP;

-Are you in middle school or the first year of high school? It's almost mandatory for popular girls to "adopt" unpopular guys. At best, it's friendly. At worst, patronizing. If you are not in middle school or a freshman, then congrats; you have a new friend.

-Implying that looks and brains are mutually exclusive on GiantITP is like slapping a nest of killer bees, except intelligent, attractive women are stinging you instead of bees.

[Faulty]

-Implying that looks and brains are mutually exclusive on GiantITP is like slapping a nest of killer bees, except intelligent, attractive women are stinging you instead of bees.

Jesus, thank God someone else picked up on this.

[Nevrmore]

-Implying that looks and brains are mutually exclusive on GiantITP is like slapping a nest of killer bees, except intelligent, attractive women are stinging you instead of bees.
And thus, a new fetish was born.
If anyone knows that this fetish already actually existed, I'm going to have to demand you don't tell/show me or else I'll be forced to murder you and your family.

[Faulty]

It probably exists. I don't think there's an object on this planet known to mankind which doesn't make at least one person horny.

[Jalor]

I don't think there's an object on this planet known to mankind which doesn't make at least one person horny.

Mind if I sig this?
It existed already. I would know. I'm a /d/viant.

[Faulty]

Knock yourself out.

[The Rose Dragon]

It probably exists. I don't think there's an object on this planet known to mankind which doesn't make at least one person horny.

I want to test that theory but I'm afraid what will happen if it is indeed true.

[Faulty]

Read News of the Weird (http://www.newsoftheweird.com/). Some weird stuff is reported there.

[Coidzor]

I really hope that's right, 'cause it sure don't look that way over here in high school.

Well, status is important.

It basically mostly depends on what sort of moral value judgment you think goes on in the subconscious categorization of those we know.

There's A: Boy: Hey, now that we've known each other for a couple of months, I feel comfortable saying, hey, would you like to go see a play with me?
Girl: umm....
Boy: What?
Girl: Sorry, I call you my friend, but really I view you as a piece of **** who I wouldn't trust alone with me without about a gallon of mace between the two of us.
Boy:...What? ...What the hell have I done to give you that impression of me?
Girl: I mean, you're just like a brother to me.
Boy: You have to worry about your brothers wanting to rape or at least trying to seduce you?
Girl: GTFO
Boy: Wow, and here I thought we were friends. Should've let this all out sooner, ma'am. Good day, *****.

and there's B Boy: So y'know, I'd really like it if you'd come to this concert with me.
Girl: Sorry, I'm going out with Guy No. 24.
Boy: What happened to Guy No. 25?
Girl: nothing, just Guy No. 24 bought me some really nice jewelry.
Boy: ...
Girl: Anyway, you had that three month window back when we were getting to know each other to ask me out.
Boy: You were ****ing the guy who lived across the hall from me last year at that time. And bawling about it to me and everyone else who would listen.
Girl: Welp, your loss, now give me a backrub and if I even feel the hint of an erection, I'm ripping it off and feeding it to my roommate's dog.
Boy: ...Yes'm... (I just know one of these days I'll fix her and then she'll realize, oh yes, then she'll realize how she's meant for me.)

See the difference in attitudes!? :smallbiggrin:

[ThunderCat]

I really hope that's right, 'cause it sure don't look that way over here in high school.Where are you from? How much people value appearance varies wildly across cultures, to the point where women from one culture can easily prioritise appearance higher than men in other cultures. There's still a tendency for men to prioritise appearance higher than women across cultures, but the actual biological difference doesn't seem to be as significant as some make it.

For America, it's becoming less and less true that women don't go for looks. Basically, 70 years ago it was custom that the sons got most, if not all, of the parents' wealth, and then found themselves the highest paid job they could get and got married, while daughters would marry, take on their husband's name and identity, and either get lower paid jobs (working class) and live primarily of their husband's income, or never get a job at all and be completely financially dependant on their husband (middle class). This meant that the husband's status and income were a lot more important for the wife than the wife's were for the husband. Surprisingly enough, surveys at that time revealed that wealth and status was lot more important for women than for men when choosing whom to marry :smallamused:

Today, the importance people attach to appearance in the US has gone up for both sexes, but more for women than men, to the point where appearance is a significant factor most people in a relationship, and pretty much the number one priority for short flings. The idea that 'women' as whole don't prioritise appearance is a myth, and if it hasn't done anything else, Twilight has at least proven that ("Edward has no personality save for being an abusive stalker :smalleek:", "But he's so pretty! :smallbiggrin:"). Of course, some women indeed don't care about looks, but a lot of them do, especially the most sexually promiscuous, which are the ones most guys will be in sexual contact with (for obvious reasons).

[Trog]

-Implying that looks and brains are mutually exclusive on GiantITP is like slapping a nest of killer bees, except intelligent, attractive women are stinging you instead of bees.
*walks into thread wearing beekeeper's outfit and a big stick*

Trog feels that a test must be done... for science.

*walks off. In the distance a there is indecipherable talking and then a loud WHACK!*

BZZZZZZZZZZ!

GAH! NO! AAAAAH! DEAR GOD THE SWELLING THE SWELLI - oh, right there feels sort of good, actually. So tell Trog, do you do acupuncture or GAH! AAAH! NOT THERE!

POISON... COURSING THOUGH... BODY... BUT NOW TROG KNOWS... WHERE THE STINGERS ARE. MUST... RECORD IN... journal for... posterity.

regret...... nothing...

[SDF]

-Implying that looks and brains are mutually exclusive on GiantITP is like slapping a nest of killer bees, except intelligent, attractive women are stinging you instead of bees.

This lends to my theory that ugly people are stupid and uninteresting.

[Mr.Moron]

This lends to my theory that ugly people are stupid and uninteresting.

As an ugly person I must say that hurts man.

[Coidzor]

*sniffles* Now that's just not very nice.

[Serpentine]

Anyone watch True Beauty? :smallamused:

[xyzzy]

Is there a single smart girl in the world who isn't either already taken or not interested in dating? Because if so, what's her number? :smallfrown:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Is there a single smart girl in the world who isn't either already taken or not interested in dating? Because if so, what's her number? :smallfrown:

I'm not giving it to ya. You have to earn those special numbers.

[ericgrau]

First disclaimer: I know hardly anything about relationships.

In my opinion if she's a girl who's nice to everyone then she's being the same with you. At least initially. She may be closer friends now that you've hung out for a while. Other than that she's a person like you and might like you just like you might like her. As in probably kinda a possibility. If you want anything to happen you gotta make it happen. Otherwise you'll just be friends. Again, my opinion. I hardly know anything about this type of stuff.

[Mando Knight]

I'm not giving it to ya. You have to earn those special numbers.

Or be on the lookout and go to the right university...

...Or get lucky and then realize that you're probably one magnetic girlfriend (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagneticGirlfriend) away from being the protagonist from a harem anime (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnwantedHarem). Which I think I might be.

[Coidzor]

^:Of course, the simplest solution to any unwanted harem is, and always has been, to summon the beast with two backs.


I dunno about him but I sure ain't.
This has been your periodical "NC makes a sarcastic remark in the RWA thread". Have a better day than me.

See, this is the sort of thing that good friends kick their friends' asses for.

[Serpentine]

In relation to that discussion going on in that other thread (which really should've been brought over here...), I maded a diagram.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931443531241516.png

[Coidzor]

Obviously if hints don't work, it's not only the person who won't take the hint's fault. The rule of escalating force and whatnot.

Mostly though, I just think it's a disservice to claim a good friendship with someone you can't be honest with.

The way I've always read it, it's more of the view that anyone who finds himself in the friends zone and aware of it in a painful way is usually a schmuck who doesn't know the rules of engagement rather than being "nice."

[Mando Knight]

In relation to that discussion going on in that other thread (which really should've been brought over here...), I maded a diagram.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931443531241516.png
I don't think I've ever believed in that "friend zone" as defined in the upper diagram. The lower diagram has a part of the "potential mate" zone that looks like it could even fit in with "happily married couple."

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's a funny thing, that megnetic girlfriend trope. One, the confidence boost really does tend to help on a social level. Two, the scent of another female on a guy has proven to be a passive chemical lure to others on a wierd, animalistic level. So really, single dudes should be borrowing clothes from females friends rather than hosing themselves down with cologne. :smalltongue:

[Faulty]

Serp is science.

[evil-frosty]

Serp also has a new and insanely cool avatar.

[Serpentine]

Not that new :smalltongue: But thanks ^_^ It's just for Classical Mythology week... Wait, is that over now?
I do has a shiny new signature, though :smallwink:

[SilverSheriff]

{Scrubbed}

[evil-frosty]

Well i just saw it so its new to me.

[Serpentine]

In the absence of convincing evidence, I maintain my position of "it's total bunk". See my siglinks for past reasonings. Even Kael failed to give me any explanation of his stance. This discussion should be moved to the Relationships thread, anyway.

[Faulty]

{Scrubbed}

[SilverSheriff]

{Scrubbed}

[Nevrmore]

{Scrubbed}
It's the belief in the Friend Zone that keeps people from trying to move on in their relationship with their interest, thus causing them to perpetuate the idea of the "Friend Zone" because the very fear of it keeps them from progressing, which in their mind proves it true.

Ever heard of a "self-fulfilling prophecy?"


My plan to be in a Romantic Relationship involves working my way into the friend zone and working my way out. It simply ensures that the lovely lady I'm after knows she can trust me.
Oh, wow, cool, emotional manipulation, why haven't I ever thought of that? You're grade A boyfriend material right there.

[Serpentine]

That's still insulting. Furthermore, you failed to offer any more evidence or explanation of its existance than "it's just so", and didn't even acknowledge all the discussion and evidence against it beforehand.
If you do want to have an actual discussion about this subject, I suggest you move it to the Relationships thread where it belongs.

[SilverSheriff]

That's still insulting. Furthermore, you failed to offer any more evidence or explanation of its existance than "it's just so", and didn't even acknowledge all the discussion and evidence against it beforehand.
If you do want to have an actual discussion about this subject, I suggest you move it to the Relationships thread where it belongs.

Some Women do have a Friend Zone, hell some men have a friend zone. I have a friend zone as in: I could never date a woman who I wasn't friends with first.

Oh, wow, cool, emotional manipulation, why haven't I ever thought of that? You're grade A boyfriend material right there.

Fine...if you want to take it that way....

[Coidzor]

It's a funny thing, that megnetic girlfriend trope. One, the confidence boost really does tend to help on a social level. Two, the scent of another female on a guy has proven to be a passive chemical lure to others on a wierd, animalistic level. So really, single dudes should be borrowing clothes from females friends rather than hosing themselves down with cologne. :smalltongue:

So it's the smell, eh? I'd wondered what triggered that.

[Serpentine]

Moved to the Relationships thread.

[Faulty]

Fine...if you want to take it that way....

It's abusing a woman's trust. You become friends with her, letting her think that you're a friend interested in her in a platonic and trustworthy way, and then use that to try and get in a relationship with her, betraying that trust. It's smoke and mirrors.

[Serpentine]

Moving this discussion to where it belongs.


Some Women do have a Friend Zone, hell some men have a friend zone. I have a friend zone as in: I could never date a woman who I wasn't friends with first.A statement of "fact" is not evidence, and what you're talking about is not the friend zone.

[Trog]

In relation to that discussion going on in that other thread (which really should've been brought over here...), I maded a diagram.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931443531241516.png
Diagram! ^(^_^)^

[Coidzor]

Now you're just willfully using the same term to refer to disparate things.

[SilverSheriff]

It's abusing a woman's trust. You become friends with her, letting her think that you're a friend interested in her in a platonic and trustworthy way, and then use that to try and get in a relationship with her, betraying that trust. It's smoke and mirrors.

Its called "Hey you want to see if we could be more?"

I do this because I don't want a ****ty relationship like that of my parents.:smallannoyed:

[Nevrmore]

Fine...if you want to take it that way....
I take it exactly at face value. There's a difference between becoming friends with someone and letting the relationship grow naturally from that, and becoming friends purely with the endgoal of having a relationship. I'll give you one guess as to which one makes a person a douche.

[Serpentine]

>points at Relationship thread<
=====>

[Coidzor]

So, wait... a guy asking out a girl that he is friends with is immoral and emotionally manipulative due to a violation of some unspoken compact that a friend will only view another friend in a completely storge and philia way? And this is while denying the existence of a state where friendship precludes eros? :smallconfused:

[RabbitHoleLost]

So, wait... a guy asking out a girl that he is friends with is immoral and emotionally manipulative due to a violation of some unspoken compact that a friend will only view another friend in a completely storge and philia way? And this is while denying the existence of a state where friendship precludes eros? :smallconfused:

No, if we're going by Nevr's comment, I think he meant that becoming friends with a girl with the intent to eventually date her is immoral.

[Serpentine]

^_^ You should go to GraphJam.com and vote for it so it comes up on the site :smalltongue:


My plan to be in a Romantic Relationship involves working my way into the friend zone and working my way out. It simply ensures that the lovely lady I'm after knows she can trust me.1. You have a "plan" for romantic relationships, rather than just letting it happen.
2. "Working your way in" implies manipulation and underhanded methods.
3. The friend zone, a discussion all on its own.

I, and obviously others, read this as saying that you will wheedle your way into a friendship under false pretences (wanting to be friends) and then pretty much tricking her into liking you more than as a friend. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it looks like it. If that's not what you meant, explain yourself, don't get snarky.

[Nevrmore]

So, wait... a guy asking out a girl that he is friends with is immoral and emotionally manipulative due to a violation of some unspoken compact that a friend will only view another friend in a completely storge and philia way? And this is while denying the existence of a state where friendship precludes eros? :smallconfused:
So, wait...Intentionally misreading every single thing that's been explained in detail in such a way as to debase the opposing opinion makes you wrong?

[Coidzor]

^: Was not intent, must've confused you and someone else's statements on the matter. Still, curiosity has been triggered by your statement.

So where does seeing acquaintance X, deciding to try to get to know her, managing to associate with her enough to get a better grasp of her character, and then deciding to try something or not based upon this fall in the great big scale of morality?

What is the morally ideal way of going about things?

At what level of familiarity/closeness does it become emotional manipulation rather than simply asking someone one knows out?

What is the primary flaw of the selection method wherein one feels one must know a potential mate well enough to call them friend before attempting to gain a romantic liaison?

Where does the emotional manipulation come in? How does a suitor actually use this position to make any real undue influence upon the decision of the one so sought?

[averagejoe]

What is the morally ideal way of going about things?

Having the whole thing be arranged by the parents of the involved parties for purely social/economic reasons. :smalltongue:

[Nevrmore]

So where does seeing acquaintance X, deciding to try to get to know her, managing to associate with her enough to get a better grasp of her character, and then deciding to try something or not based upon this fall in the great big scale of morality?

What is the morally ideal way of going about things?

At what level of familiarity/closeness does it become emotional manipulation rather than simply asking someone one knows out?

What is the primary flaw of the selection method wherein one feels one must know a potential mate well enough to call them friend before attempting to gain a romantic liaison?

Where does the emotional manipulation come in? How does a suitor actually use this position to make any real undue influence upon the decision of the sought?
You are intentionally trying to paint an ideal picture that I think the same people I've been calling douchebags for two days would do. No one has said anything about the rightness or wrongness of someone who feels that they need to know a person better as a friend before wanting to go out with them, and you're just trying to set up a straw man argument by making it so. There's a difference between a person who uses a friendship as a gauge of romantic possibility, and a person who uses a friendship as a tool to achieve a relationship. There's a difference between letting something grow naturally, and having it planned out in advance. There's a difference between being genuine and being an asshat.

[arguskos]

I normally avoid these threads, but I do want to mention that planning out a relationship doesn't make someone a bad person, just forward thinking. Let's not assume Black Pants is a horrid, manipulative, evil bastard. Just saying, no need for the hate and anger, yeah? :smallredface:

[SilverSheriff]

I don't ever think Platonic, I think "Hey, she might be someone I could spend the rest of this miserable existance with, she might actually make me happy, why don't I work on a friendship so sometime in the future? she might actually be the one instead of some silly fling."

If you don't like that then fine, you don't have to like me or even know me but I'm not about to go out and take a chance on some irrational feeling a get when I see some lady down the street. I'm looking for long term only.:smallmad:


I normally avoid these threads, but I do want to mention that planning out a relationship doesn't make someone a bad person, just forward thinking. Let's not assume Black Pants is a horrid, manipulative, evil bastard. Just saying, no need for the hate and anger, yeah? :smallredface:

It just happens that in this case I am using my head instead of FAIL Logic, other times I am the 'horrid, manipulative, evil bastard'.

The worst of me comes out at times where I am trying to display the best...:smallsigh:

[Zeful]

Having the whole thing be arranged by the parents of the involved parties for purely social/economic reasons. :smalltongue:

Or getting placed in Vault 69 (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_69).

[Renegade Paladin]

The idea that 'women' as whole don't prioritise appearance is a myth, and if it hasn't done anything else, Twilight has at least proven that ("Edward has no personality save for being an abusive stalker :smalleek:", "But he's so pretty! :smallbiggrin:").
Hello? Vampire? :smalltongue:

[TFT]

Ok, I have typed and scrapped two posts so far because I can't get what I am trying to say right. Here goes try number 3...

You can't trick someone into a relationship by becoming friends. You can't make anyone like you just because your friends, kind of the opposite in fact, since they know you better then if you tried to date them up front. If you call someone trying to get into a relationship by befriending the person manipulative, I think you would have to call how most people try to get a date "manipulating" - trying to give the person the best first impression of you so they will actually go on a date. Black Pants Guy, the way I interperet it(and I may be wrong), is that he finds a girl he likes. He becomes friends with her, in hopes that she will see his personality and good side and eventually date him. There is no manipulation, no forcing into a relationship - he just does it a different way then most.

[Quincunx]

"Vampire" is not a personality--a lesson learned slow and painfully across several RPGs.

"So what're you going to do now that you got here?"
"Pff, that was part of my mortal existence. I'm a VAMPIRE!"
"Huh. . ."
(silence)
". . .So. What did you want to do?"
"Dunno. Hey, you heard about that new torrent site?"

[Serpentine]

Black Pants Guy, to repeat myself (with some edits) because you apparently decided not to respond to it:

My plan to be in a Romantic Relationship involves working my way into the friend zone and working my way out. It simply ensures that the lovely lady I'm after knows she can trust me.1. You have a "plan" for romantic relationships, rather than just letting it happen. Not necessarily a bad thing.
2. "Working your way in" implies manipulation and underhanded methods.
3. The friend zone, a discussion all on its own.
4. You seem to be basically saying that the only reason you will be friends with this hypothetical girl is as part of your plan for getting into their... heart, not out of any genuine desire to be friends with them.

I, and obviously others, read this as saying that you will wheedle your way into a friendship under false pretences ("wanting to be friends") and then pretty much trick her into liking you as "more" than a friend. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it looks like it. If that's not what you meant, explain yourself, don't get snarky.

[SilverSheriff]

How does one trick another into love?

[HellfireLover]

Via misrepresentation, generally.

[YPU]

Via misrepresentation, generally.
Actually there are some pretty subtle psychological forces at work there. If you think of somebody as a potential partner you often start to try and present yourself in a better fashion. That could be a simple improvement in wardrobe or small lies to make you look better. The problem is that this effect fades during the actual relationship bringing up a probably more shabby you. Its not really fair but it is “natural”

[Serpentine]

You're still not addressing the point - or substance, or any except for a tiny nitpick - of my post. This is what your statement said to us. If we got it wrong, explain us what you meant.

[SilverSheriff]

I don't see why I should have to explain myself to anyone. If you are so immature as to not see it from a 'Black Pants Guy wants to know a specific lady before he asks her out.' point of view then all of you obviously aren't worth knowing.

[potatocubed]

If we got it wrong, explain us what you meant.

Consider the following categories:

Complete Strangers
Friends
Romantic Entanglement


As I understand it, BPG is saying that it is best to go from 'complete strangers' to 'romantic entanglement' via 'friends' somewhere in the middle.

[Serpentine]

I don't see why I should have to explain myself to anyone. If you are so immature as to not see it from a 'Black Pants Guy wants to know a specific lady before he asks her out.' point of view then all of you obviously aren't worth knowing.If you are of the view that you should never have to explain yourself or back up your statements with evidence, then I suggest you never seek a career in journalism, politics, science or history.

Potato: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the original statement, which is the one I've been trying to get him to explain rather than simply declare that we've all gotten it wrong, implies that he only goes through step 2 in order to get to step 3.

[Coidzor]

Via misrepresentation, generally.Actually there are some pretty subtle psychological forces at work there. If you think of somebody as a potential partner you often start to try and present yourself in a better fashion. That could be a simple improvement in wardrobe or small lies to make you look better. The problem is that this effect fades during the actual relationship bringing up a probably more shabby you. Its not really fair but it is “natural”

It seems to me like drawing things out by maintaining a facade through forging and maintaining a friendship would merely serve to increase the chance that it would be seen through or foiled in some other manner.

My mind is straining at the problem but cannot figure out the means of how one could trick someone into falling in love or entering into a long-term relationship, either by becoming their friend or by going for the lay from the get go. Maybe I'm just tired though.

Sorta ignoring seduction due to a perception that in order for a woman to really be seduceable she has to be at least slightly amenable to the concept of sleeping with another out of a formalized relationship in the first place. Also, because that's generally just about one night rather than anything lasting.

[Kaelaroth]

In the absence of convincing evidence, I maintain my position of "it's total bunk". See my siglinks for past reasonings. Even Kael failed to give me any explanation of his stance. This discussion should be moved to the Relationships thread, anyway.

*pops up*
So, are we discussing this in that thread, now?

Saw it! To the thread!

[HellfireLover]

Actually there are some pretty subtle psychological forces at work there. If you think of somebody as a potential partner you often start to try and present yourself in a better fashion. That could be a simple improvement in wardrobe or small lies to make you look better. The problem is that this effect fades during the actual relationship bringing up a probably more shabby you. Its not really fair but it is “natural”

I concede that you may want to make more of an effort to look good for someone you find attractive, and as long as you aren't completely negating your own comfort for someone else's sake, then that's fine. Likewise, if you decide to genuinely take an interest in a subject because your object of desire is interested in that particular subject, I have no problem with it. If you're feigning an interest in an attempt to get closer, that is when I start to have a problem.

Lying to make yourself look better is quite frankly, setting yourself up for a fall at a later date; even tiny, seemingly harmless lies, when exposed, have repercussions that may involve the loss of trust within that relationship. When one person goes into a relationship of whatever kind with a totally different intention from that which is presented outwardly, that is misrepresentation. When a person, by words or actions, leads another to come to a conclusion which is not the correct one, and does not care to clarify the point, I call misrepresentation. You're basically tricking the other person. Conning them, to an extent. To go into any relationship with an ulterior motive is a thing I personally find distasteful.

@ BlackPantsGuy: I think you've really left yourself open to criticism here, because from the phrasing you use, it seems that the only way you would pursue friendship with a member of the opposite sex is precisely because you do have an ulterior motive. With the unspoken caveat that, should said friend prove to be unsuitable as a mate for whatever reason, not least her own unwillingness, that the 'friendship' would not be worth pursuing further and that you might then discard that person in favour of another.

It's likely that you don't mean to come across this way, but it does.