PDA

View Full Version : A breath of our inspiration...



The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 10:07 AM
...Is the life of each generation.
A wondrous thing of our dreaming,
Unearthly, impossible seeming-
The soldier, the king, and the peasant
Are working together in one,
Till our dream shall become their present,
And their work in the world be done...

...But we, with our dreaming and singing,
Ceaseless and sorrowless we!
The glory about us clinging
Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing;
O men! It must ever be
That we dwell, in our dreaming and singing,
A little apart from ye...

...You shall teach us your song's new numbers,
And things that we dreamt not before;
Yea, in spite of a dreamer who slumbers,
And a singer who sings no more.

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

Imagineered

Large Construct (extraplanar, incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 17d10+30 (123 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 19 (+7 deflection, +3 dex, -1 size), 20% miss-chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/-
Attack: Touch +15 melee (touch of maladroitness)
Full attack: Touch +15 melee (touch of maladroitness)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Daydream, epiphany, imagineering, psi-like abilities, touch of maladroitness
Special Qualities: Assume idea, born of dream, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sonics, incorporeal traits, naturally psionic, power resistance 23, telepathy 120 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +5
Abilities: Str -, Dex 17, Con -, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 24
Skills: Knowledge (psionics) +23, Knowledge (the planes) +23, Listen +10, Lucid Dreaming +20, Perform (any two) +27, Spot +10
Feats: Dodge, Dreamtelling (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dreamtelling,HH), *Focused Skill User, Lightening Reflexes, Opportunity Power, Psionic Meditation
Environment: Region of Dreams
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Chaotic
Advancement: 17-23 HD (Large), 24-36 (Huge), 37-40 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

* From Complete Psionic.

An imagineered is a mental creation constructed by psionicists who delve deep into the amazing creative proccesses of sentient beings in the locale where this potential roams rampant, the Region of Dreams. It is a being of congealed imagination and endless possibilities held together by fascination and inspiration. It roams the dreams of sleeping beings, continuously intrigued by what the subconscious mind can bring to being.

An imagineered reveres its creator beyond all others, and reguards everything its maker says as if Charmed. However, it is still an independent, free willed being and does not mindlessly obey commands given it. Though always chaotic, an imagineered takes its creator's alignment on the Good-Evil axis at the time of its creation.

Imagineered weigh precisely as much as an idea. They speak only through telepathy.

Combat
An imagineered rarely fights, being far too busy experiencing the rapture of continuous inspiration. However, if it must fight for its life it draws upon the darker impulses of the subconscious and temporarily becomes a being of pure nightmare to defeat its opponent.

Assume Idea (Su): An imagineered can assume the likeness of any Small to Huge creature or object as a free action once per round that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Its abilities do not change, but it appears to be that creature or object, though unreal seeming. Those who use true seeing or other like abilities lose sight of the creature for as long as the ability is in effect, as once its veil is pierced it has no more visibility than a flash of insight.

Born of Dream (Ex):
As a being of dream, an imagineered appears hazy and out of focus, such that all melee and ranged attacks are assessed a 20-percent miss chance. This 20-percent miss chance is not the same as concealment.

Construct Traits: An imagineered has immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. It cannot heal damage, but it can be repaired.

Daydream (Su):
An imagineered's close presence causes intense creative overstimulation. It extends some five feet from the Imagineered and those within must succeed on a DC 25 Will save or be caught up in a helpless flight of fancy. Every minute a new check can be made to disbelieve, and if the Imagineered moves out of range the effect ends 1d4 rounds later. If the enthralled being has a Charisma or Wisdom of 18 the Imagineered can bring forth its inner potential to the surface, thus granting it the Wild Talent feat. The Imagineered is very specific about who it bestows this gift, and in particular will not give it to one who has attacked it. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is charisma based.

Epiphany (Su):
An imagineered's form is indescribably enthralling and those who look upon it within 60 feet must succeed on a DC 25 will save or become Fascinated for the duration of its presence. Those who make the save are unaffected for the day. Whether or not they are enthralled they are filled with inspired ingenuity. While within range all Craft and Perform checks are made with a +10 circumstance bonus. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is charisma based.

Incorporeal Traits: An imagineered is harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, powers, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. It has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source, except for force effects or attacks made with ghost touch weapons. It can pass through solid objects, but not force effects, at will. Its attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against them. An incorporeal creature always moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be.

Imagineering (Ps):
Once per minute an imagineered may use a flash of inspiration to bring forth a curious creature from his imagination alike to the Astral Construct power as a 15th level manifester, except it is woven from the essence of dream itself. The construct appears real in all ways, with even color and specific mannerisms. This creature gains the same born of dream quality as its creator. An imagineered may only have one dream construct created at the same time and can dismiss it at will.

Naturally Psionic: Imagineered have 1 bonus power point.

Psi-like Abilities:
At Will/Dream Travel, Id Insinuation, Psionic True Seeing; 3/day Call to Mind, Form of Doom, Hyperconscious, Realized Potential. Manifester level 20. Save DC's are Charisma based.

Telepathy (Su): An imagineered can communicate telepathically with any creature within 120 feet that has an Intelligence score. The creature can respond to the imagineered if it wishes - no common language is needed.

Touch of Maladroitness (Su):
An Imagineered continuously seeks inspiration and if it wishes its touch permanently drains 1 skill rank from every skill the victim possesses, and 2 ranks from Craft and Perform skills, unless they succeed on a DC 25 will save.
These skill points can be replenished once the victim gains a level by investing the additional points into the missing ranks. The loss of these points may cause the victim to no longer meet the prerequisites for certain class features, feats, or prestige classes, causing them to lose their benefits until their points are replaced, at which point they rediscover their calling. This ability may be reversed with uses of such powers as Psychic Reformation, Psychic Chirurgery, Reality Revision, and spells such as Limited Wish and Miracle. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills: Imagineered gain a +10 insight bonus on all Craft and Perform checks.

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 10:19 AM
Touch of Maladroitness (Su):
An Imagineered continously seeks inspiration and its touch permanently drains 1 skill rank from every skill the victim possesses, and 2 ranks from Craft and Perform skills. These skill points can be replinished once the victim gains a level by investing the additional points into the missing ranks. The loss of these points may cause the victim to no longer meet the prerequisites for certain class features, feats, or prestige classes, causing them to lose their benefits until their points are replaced, at which point they rediscover their calling.

Is there a save?

As a player, I'd take serious issue if something came in the night and stole my skill points without a warning and without means to defend myself.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 10:23 AM
No, no save. Think of it as alike to a ghost's 'Draining Touch' which also allows no save. In fact, a ghost would be more dangerous because it can drain any ability, even intelligence, which would be even more detrimental.

Now, a ghost's damage can be healed more easily, but then its touch can also drain con and do damage. All this does is drain skill points which is in no way fatal. Just absolutely annoying. As a player, which would you prefer? ;)

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 10:37 AM
Something that isn't permanent and doesn't result in the possibility of losing qualifications for a PrC.

And if it does, I'd like a chance at defending myself.


Hmm, since the Imagineered traverse the dreamscape...

Wouldn't you end up dreaming a dream where you're defending a fortress (your mind) and the Imagineered is trying to invade it? So that you'd have to battle it?

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 10:43 AM
Something that isn't permanent and doesn't result in the possibility of losing qualifications for a PrC.

And if it does, I'd like a chance at defending myself.
I'll specify that it is a mind-affecting effect, so that powers that protect the mind will defend against it. However, is it worse than dying?



Hmm, since the Imagineered traverse the dreamscape...

Wouldn't you end up dreaming a dream where you're defending a fortress (your mind) and the Imagineered is trying to invade it? So that you'd have to battle it?
Not neccessarily. Lucid Dreaming is a skill from the Manual of the Planes that lets you enter other folk's dreams. You may in fact have dozens of creatures wandering through your dreams and never know it.

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 11:06 AM
I'll specify that it is a mind-affecting effect, so that powers that protect the mind will defend against it. However, is it worse than dying?


As a character, certainly not. As a player, if it ends up ruining my character, I stop having fun with the game.

As A GM, if I used something like this against my players they'd be up in arms. Screw with their heads all you want, but touch their class features (through putting them in a no-win situation, no less) and you're asking for bloodshed to happen. ;)

Edit: minor typographical error

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 11:13 AM
As a character, certainly not. As a player, if it ends up ruining my character, I stop having fun with the game.
So to lose skill points is worse than dying? That'd 'really' ruin your character.


As A GM, if I used something like this against my players they'd be up in arms. Screw with their heads all you want, but touch their class features (through putting them in a no-win situation, no less) and you're asking for bloodshed to happen. ;)
It isn't a no-win situation ::)

Maryring
2006-05-11, 11:19 AM
Oh it is. This monster is one of your worst creations so far as it screws with PLAYERS in the most horrible way.

Why?

From what I understand...

Creatures and characters with permanent "True Seeing" can't ever hope to see it.

Fighters (and other characters with low will save, but especially fighters) are runied by it because they are helpless whenever they get close to it. (DC 25 will save means that a normal fighter needs a natural 20)

Skill ranks are drained and lost forever. Way to screw up characters, especially those who like to have many spread out ranks or who love to use perform and craft skills.

I do not like this critter at all and think it is a perfect PLAYER ruiner.

Rydax
2006-05-11, 11:25 AM
I agree that the Touch of Maladroitness ability should be thrown out unless you make it an epic level creature. Something like that is too powerful for a campaign of anything less than that. Potentially taking away thirty or more skill points in one touch is disgusting, especially if it's permanent. Consider how many skill points a character gains each level. Not nearly enough to make up for the loss even after four or five levels in some cases. And in this situation, the characters are trying to make up for what they've lost over those levels instead of getting better. If my DM were to tell me that I lost a rank in each skill with no hope of ever getting them back, I would seriously consider quitting the game right then. That is an evil thing for a DM to do, and not in a good sense. If nothing else, at least allow a Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, etc. to restore the lost skill points. This I would find acceptable. Maximiuk makes a good point. Of course the character would not want to die, but from the player's point of view, taking such a hit would be a lot worse. If my character lost all of those skill points permanently, I'd prefer to kill him off anyway and bring in a new character who wasn't so totally screwed on his abilities.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 11:34 AM
Creatures and characters with permanent "True Seeing" can't ever hope to see it.
Look at the Trilloch from the MM III. It can't be seen even with True Seeing, and is 'always' invisible. And seriously, how many players have permanent true seeing that they can't turn off?


Fighters (and other characters with low will save, but especially fighters) are runied by it because they are helpless whenever they get close to it. (DC 25 will save means that a normal fighter needs a natural 20)
Thats why you don't attack it from up close. Ranged is the ebst way to deal with it. A CR 10 Bebelith can kill a Wizard in one blow, immediately dealing 1d6 and then 2d6 con damage with a DC 24. Even a Fighter would have to roll a 17. Any caster or rogue would have absolutely no save possibility. Or what about the spells/powers that kill any without saves below a certain ammount of HP?


This thing deals no damage whatsoever EXCEPT to skills, and its broken? Sure it's annoying, but I'm trying to figure out why skill loss is worth than death.


If my DM were to tell me that I lost a rank in each skill with no hope of ever getting them back, I would seriously consider quitting the game right then. That is an evil thing for a DM to do, and not in a good sense. If nothing else, at least allow a Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, etc. to restore the lost skill points.
Well of course they can be regained magically. Plenty of powers or spells tha do that kind of thing. Egads, there are spells and creatures that drain entire LEVELS (which includes more than just skill and PrC benefits, folks). How is this worse?

And it can only do it once per round to one person. As its only true attack.

And really, skill drain is not worth killing off a character. I find that kind of thinking abhorent. 'My character isn't uber anymore, he must die.' What is that?

Edit: Oh, and there is the little bit about how YOU have to initiate combat. Its not likely to ever make a go at you unless you start it. So that kinda cuts down on its nastiness, as if you get skill drained it ain't its fault.

Maryring
2006-05-11, 11:44 AM
Characters with the VoP feat gain true seeing, which can't be turned off, and there are those who make it permanent with permanency (which costs XP).

And deaths can be restored with raise dead and ressurection. Skill drain can't be restored at all it seems. What would you use to restore them? Limited wish? That thing costs XP.

Seriously, this critter seems like nothing but a monster made to irritate players, and especially fighters, with their low skill points and will saves.

EDIT: Then change the fluff. For I get the impression that this critter goes around and drains skill points from everyone.

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 11:48 AM
So to lose skill points is worse than dying? That'd 'really' ruin your character.

*takes a deep breath*

*deflates*

OK, first of all, sorry if my responses so far seemed like knee-jerk reactions. As with most of your creations, I really like that monster. It's only that one class feature that set off alarm bells for me.


It isn't a no-win situation ::)

Ok, story time.

It's about one of those bad mistakes that I made as an inexperienced GM. See, I had an IDEA for a great campaign arc. The game has been on break for the summer, which I spent planning out what was going to happen next. The hook featured a southern empire that found a way to create super-powerful warriors through unknown means (that's what the PC's were going to have to investigate). That was only the first layer of the plot, but that's irrelevant.

Now, the group had encountered those warriors before, but only one at a time (assasins slaughtering the northern mages) and I wanted to impress upon the party how deadly they could be when there was more of them.

Thus was born the Siege of Loreda.

There'd be a mercenary company, about 600 strong, hired by the town to protect them. There'd be the enemy with 500 regular soldiers, 50 of the warriors and one battle mage. There'd be the party stuck in the city in the middle of all this. There'd be a grand battle, but the fact would be, the mercenaries would lose.

Come autumn our group gathered again, with the addition of one player. He played in the campaign world before (the current events were taking place 8 years after he left) so I allowed his old character back in, suitably upgraded to make him on par with the rest of the group.

He told me that in those 8 years his character was building up his leadership and tactical command skills and started his own mercenary company. I liked the idea and we both got pretty engaged in designing the what, how, and why of his unit. Then, as a way to bring him back into the game, I put his company in charge of defending Loreda.

And here's the mistake: I didn't change my original plan. The town would still be captured.

To make this story shorter, the battle went as predicted (my only defense is that the player was an extremely poor tactician) and the party barely escaped the town alive on a livestock barge. And, needless to say, some egos were bruised.

Through my poor handling of the situation I made a large portion of the character's skills useless to him, thus making him much weaker compared to the rest of the party. After a long discussion with him I realized that ensuring a fun game for everyone is more important to me than the grand ideas and plot hooks, and allowed him to remake his character as more geared towards small party adventuring.

Now to get to the point. :)

I messed up that player's character (and enjoyment of the game) through putting him in a no-win situation - the comments I got from other players that I made the warriors so powerful that no matter what the party did, they'd have lost regardless.

The Touch of Maladroitness is, to me, an overpowered feature since it gives the character little or no means of defense and ends up putting them behind the rest of the party. Perhaps the biggest issue I have is that it's permanent and, apparently, the lost skill points can't be restored in any way other than leveling up (you might as well said that they're lost forever then, since leveling up should've let you upgrade you skills, not restore them). Per D&D mechanics, not even Int drain can take away the skill points you already invested into something.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 11:55 AM
Skill drain can't be restored at all it seems. What would you use to restore them? Limited wish? That thing costs XP.
Remove Curse would probably do the trick as Bestow does –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

Now please tell me how this ability is any worse than an enemy Wizard who can throw Bestow Curses around? A 12th level Wizard can cast Bestow Curse at LEAST 6 times a day. Thats a -24 to every single roll, save, ability check, and skill check. It has a save, sure, but look at what it does in addition.


EDIT: Then change the fluff. For I get the impression that this critter goes around and drains skill points from everyone.
The fluff says as a touch attack it can drain them. It only has one touch. It thus can only make one touch attack per round to one person.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 11:59 AM
I messed up that player's character (and enjoyment of the game) through putting him in a no-win situation - the comments I got from other players that I made the warriors so powerful that no matter what the party did, they'd have lost regardless.
So do you consider any no-save power or ability to be unfair and fun killing?

And btw, as a Mind-Affecting Effect, this ability can be blocked by many powers and spells. So its not a no-win in any shape, form, or fashion.

Rydax
2006-05-11, 12:00 PM
And really, skill drain is not worth killing off a character. I find that kind of thinking abhorent. 'My character isn't uber anymore, he must die.' What is that?

It isn't about characters being "uber" or whatever. Monsters should attack the characters, not character sheets. The ability hardly helps at all in combat and none at all if you expect characters to use ranged attacks, so there is no good reason for this monster to have such an attack except for purposes of flavor. If that is the reason for the ability, then it should be something that is not so devastating. It simply creates the feeling that the DM is screwing over the players and no one wants to be put into that situation. It isn't "oh crap, my character lost this really cool ability so now I'm going to pout in the corner because I don't want to play anymore". I wouldn't want to play in a game run by a DM who would do ANYTHING like this because it takes all the fun out of playing a character. Sure, I expect bad things to happen to PCs from time to time. This is horrendous, though.

Also, if there are magical effects are able to restore the skill points, you need to say that because it sounds like nothing can be done. The character is just screwed if it gets touched. Maryring brought up a good point about that, though. Those spells still have a heafty XP cost. Even energy drain attacks give you the chance to remove the negative levels before they become permanent, and it usually only requires a fortitude save or two.

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 12:05 PM
So do you consider any no-save power or ability to be unfair and fun killing?

No, I don't. It largely depends on how it's handled, and with this one there's just so much potential for abuse.

*ponders*

Or maybe I'm just prejudiced by what I did, and by what other GM's did to my characters.


Remove Curse would probably do the trick

Then state so in the ability's description. I think the issue here is (from what others have posted in this discussion) that there's no immediately apparent way to negate that effect.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 12:13 PM
Well, I've played RPG's for probably a good 10 years, and i've only DM'd for perhaps 3. I would not go crying if this happened, as its merely part of the game. I don't see how it takes all the fun out of it. As a DM and player I've always been seriously ticked by those who lag behind the others in any way can't stand to play any more. And all you are losing are SKILL points, of which powers, such as Bestow Curse, can do the same, if not worse.

Any player with a low intelligence could have nearly no skill points for the entire duration of play, from beginning to end. Does this mean you wouldn't play an ignorant character?

And as has been mentioned, those likely to have high intelligences, and therefore more skill ranks, are better able to resist this. And as skills are not so important to a barbarian or fighter or whatnot, they won't be affected half as bad.

And whats to stop you from running a side quest to take the affected to a special healer of the mind?

And how does ith elp this creature in combat? Well, obviously when folks start forgetting things they knew and their minds go all wierd they will leave this being alone, who didn't want to fight in the first place.

All in all I don't understand the concern here.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 12:14 PM
I think the issue here is (from what others have posted in this discussion) that there's no immediately apparent way to negate that effect.
I'll be sure to.

Maxymiuk
2006-05-11, 12:21 PM
And how does it help this creature in combat? Well, obviously when folks start forgetting things they knew and their minds go all wierd they will leave this being alone, who didn't want to fight in the first place.

All in all I don't understand the concern here.


Ahh, now I understand.


An Imagineered continously seeks inspiration and its touch permanently drains 1 skill rank from every skill the victim possesses, and 2 ranks from Craft and Perform skills. These skill points can be replinished once the victim gains a level by investing the additional points into the missing ranks. The loss of these points may cause the victim to no longer meet the prerequisites for certain class features, feats, or prestige classes, causing them to lose their benefits until their points are replaced, at which point they rediscover their calling. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Emphasis mine. See, from the fluff I got this image of a being who goes merrily carousing through people's dreams and stealing their knowledge to add to its own. You, on the other hand, see this as a combat-only ability. Thus the confusion, but hopefully we're now on the same fequency. :)

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 12:28 PM
Ok, have now clarified a few things. This loss can now even be restored by use of a 4th level power called Psychic Reformation, amongst others.




Ahh, now I understand.


Emphasis mine. See, from the fluff I got this image of a being who goes merrily carousing through people's dreams and stealing their knowledge to add to its own. You, on the other hand, see this as a combat-only ability. Thus the confusion, but hopefully we're now on the same fequency. :)
Well, good-aligned imagineered would never do it except in self defense, nor is it likely a neutral one woudl either. Now, an evil imagineered may do just that, trying to steal knowledge for their own sake.

Ebonwoulfe
2006-05-11, 12:43 PM
What everyone is balking about here is the permanancy of the effect. I mean, a curse SUCKS, but you can FIX it. You can't compare this to a curse. A drained level SUCKS, but after your character regains that level it's like nothing happened. But after this effect hits you, you suddenly have considerably less skill points - and you will be missing them until you start a new character. If you want to stick with this idea, change it so that the effect might be more dramatic (like -6 to those skills, to put it on par with a nasty curse) but make it fixable. You get the point across, you cut into a character's skills, but they can move on.

Other than that, it's a fine idea. Everyone seems to be down on this one effect, and for some reason you seem too attached to your idea to change it. If you're gonna post something, we're gonna PEACH it.

If you're gonna make a character that strikes skills like this, you might want to consider similar effects that hit BAB, or spell progressions.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 12:49 PM
Other than that, it's a fine idea. Everyone seems to be down on this one effect, and for some reason you seem too attached to your idea to change it. If you're gonna post something, we're gonna PEACH it.
I've now made it clear that certain spells and affects could get rid of it. It 'is' fixable. Take a look at the entry. '

And thanks everyone for PEACHing, btw.

(Just doesn't neccessarily mean I'll agree ;) )

Dalcassius
2006-05-11, 12:58 PM
Ok, I've not read this entire thread, but I'm getting the impression the general consesnous is this critter is a flop.
I whole-heartedly disagree.
The skill drain can be fixed with a little work and perhap some XP. There is a list of spells that correct the damage. I have no problem hitting my players up with this.
Which brings me to my next thought. Why does everyone say that lossing ablities scores, levels and skill points is character crippling? Adversity and challenge make for a great game. My DM once left a group of 8th level characters penniless. We owned nothing but loin clothes. Another time we were all struck with amnesia. THAT is annoying. A 6th level rogue who has to figure out his class features all over again not to mention his name and reasons for living. Have DM's stopped throwing in cursed items? I got the rogue in my last game to put on a cursed circlet which dropped him 3 levels until he could get it removed with a remove curse. Same with the fighter who put on bracers of defenselessness.
I see the Touch of Maladroitness as the same thing. Just get a remove curse. If there wasn't the occasional permenant negitive effect or serious consequence the game would be like a steady climb up a ladder. With these consequences its more of a scabbling climb up a mountain ridge. Sometimes to have to double back and sometimes you fall. What matters is that you get back up after getting the Cure Serious Wounds cast.

Maryring
2006-05-11, 01:39 PM
Except, when we read it, you couldn't remove it with ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. And I have always hated darkchips if you know what those are. Basically, this critter reminds me of a creature that force you to use darkchips. Permanently crippling you for nothing. Still, nonpermanently it still makes no sense as a creature, since it has no way of defending itself. (You don't fall unconcious from skill drain.) Sorry, but I just can't like this little dreaminvader. I think the fluff is nonsensical and it's abilities too similar to darkchips. That is my PEACH for you.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 01:46 PM
Still, nonpermanently it still makes no sense as a creature, since it has no way of defending itself.
Are you refering to the Imagineered or those it targets with its Touch?

And to PEACH you have to do more than say 'it stinks'. Explain to me 'why' the fluff is nonsensical.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-11, 01:55 PM
If this effect is negated by Remove Curse, I honestly don't see the big problem. Remove Curse is free and a 5th-level cleric can cast it, as can a 4th level wizard/sorceror. Higher level bards and paladins could as well. What's the big problem exactly?

If nobody has it memorized, it might, MIGHT, negate the effects of some prestige classes or make it harder to use your skills for a day. Just kill it, hole up and wait for your cleric or wizard/sorceror to cast remove curse. There's NO way you should ever be throwing any of these against a party who would not be high enough level to use Remove Curse.

Assuming the worst, assuming you don't have a cleric/sorceror/wizard/bard of high enough level, or one at all? Just don't use this monster against them. That's your choice as a DM.

Personally, I like both this foe and its special abillities. I think it makes for an interesting and unique challenge that, while not necessarily deadly by itself, could be extremely frustrating and challenging when combined with other threats.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 01:58 PM
Well, it may also summon the equivalent of an 8th level Astral Construct at any time, and astral constructs can be very deadly. Also, Form of Doom allows it to actually do physical damage.

So it does in fact have offensive capabilities besides skill siphoning. The latter just seems to be what everyone is scared of ;)

Dalcassius
2006-05-11, 01:59 PM
I think the skill drain is a decent defense if the character/player has the sense to run.
"Oh crap, there goes those seven years of piano lessons! Wait! I CAN'T REMEMBER MY DAD!!"

I know it doesn't take life memories, but bonus points to whoever knows the quote. Anywho, its like thowing a monsters who's CR is 5 or 6 higher than the party. The point is to make them run home.
Also, the way this has been written I can see it only being encounted with a master. Either it's creator or someone the critter has made its adopted master. On top of that, it seems like a bit of a pacifist, the type who will try and reason with an attacker to cease attacking. There are plenty of "outs" for a DM to use so the party doesn't forget how to read or listen... good.
I would say though, after giving the write up a third read through that each touch taking one point from ALL skills is a bit much. Perhaps if the touch took 1dx skills from skills of the creatures choice and only one form any given skill. It may seem a bit less TPKish (I know its a non-lethal attack).

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-11, 02:01 PM
Well, it may also summon the equivalent of an 8th level Astral Construct at any time, and astral constructs can be very deadly. Also, Form of Doom allows it to actually do physical damage.

So it does in fact have offensive capabilities besides skill siphoning. The latter just seems to be what everyone is scared of ;)


Well there you go, an immediate ability to throw out an alternative challenge instead of just the skill drain! Even by itself its deadly without doing any real harm! ;D

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 02:06 PM
I know it doesn't take life memories, but bonus points to whoever knows the quote. Anywho, its like thowing a monsters who's CR is 5 or 6 higher than the party. The point is to make them run home.
No, no, that'll just add fuel to the fire. This thing really isn't that difficult for its CR. Now listen, its one of those creatures you just stay out of range and pepper it from a distance. There are alot of creatures like that. I mean seriously, how are you going to deal with a wyrmling gold dragon? 200 flight speed? Add flyby attack and when can you ever kill it? It swoops in from nowhere, bites, flames, zips back into the stratasphere where your arrows and fireballs can't reach. It just takes special strategy.



On top of that, it seems like a bit of a pacifist, the type who will try and reason with an attacker to cease attacking. There are plenty of "outs" for a DM to use so the party doesn't forget how to read or listen... good.
Not so much a pacifist as 'I got better things to do...'



I would say though, after giving the write up a third read through that each touch taking one point from ALL skills is a bit much. Perhaps if the touch took 1dx skills from skills of the creatures choice and only one form any given skill. It may seem a bit less TPKish (I know its a non-lethal attack).
I'll think on it, though I still honestly don't see the need.


Well there you go, an immediate ability to throw out an alternative challenge instead of just the skill drain! Even by itself its deadly without doing any real harm!
Well, once per minute, and never more than one at any given time.

It seems though that either everyone is saying its 'too' powerful, or its not powerful enough. Can't win ::)

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-11, 02:38 PM
It seems though that either everyone is saying its 'too' powerful, or its not powerful enough. Can't win ::)


You misunderstand, I was saying I thought it was just right. ;)

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 02:50 PM
You misunderstand, I was saying I thought it was just right. ;)
Oh, I gotcha, was speaking about some of the other comments.

TBPBenni
2006-05-11, 03:10 PM
Seeing as the Imagineered doesn't have to actually eat inspiration or anything to survive, I would imagine that if one really had a problem with it, he could just ask for his skill ranks back. If it were just a mistake, then "whups, sorry about that, here, I was just looking at them and I got so caught up in this plan I had that before I knew it, I had borrowed them by mistake. So sorry."

Of course, getting them back from a basically harmless, scared, and possibly offended entity that you just attacked might be harder. "No, I don't like you, go away. Your mind is like granite and your ideas are like dross. I hate you and wish only grey and miserable things to happen to you. Proletariat."

Overall, the entire creature is supremely cool, although I'm a little iffy on the whole free Wild Talent thing (which it generally doesn't give out often anyway, and only to the most creative and impressive folks it meets, so it probably just wouldn't come up in my game.) I could see a D&D equivalent of a bohemian community creating one or even a small handful, simply so man and imagination could inspire one another to newer and greater feats of creativity.

Dalcassius
2006-05-11, 03:27 PM
If you think the giving out of feats is too powerful/unbalanced, then add either an AoE or a duration. If the granted leaves the presence of the Imagineered (outside 30 feet) then the feat fades. Or after granting the feat it leaves after 24 hours, or 1d4 days, even.

TBPBenni
2006-05-11, 03:53 PM
Oh, no no, it's balanced, I'm not saying that. =) There are high-end stat prereqs, the creature rarely, rarely gives it out, and in the end it's a DM fiat. In addition, Wild Talent is arguably one of the more flavorful and less powerful of the psionic feats, so it's not like people are getting Divine Metamagics or Greater Weapon Specializations for free.

So it's cool, just something I didn't see anybody touch on.

I do like the idea of psychic inspiration welling up in a radius around a creature though, although I'm not sure that this is the right kind of creature for it to happen with, as it's pretty good as is. To be honest, the idea somewhat reminds me of the Beast God from Princess Mononoke, but with thoughts and creativity instead of lush vegetation blooming wherever it walks, and dying as it leaves.

Maryring
2006-05-11, 03:56 PM
And to PEACH you have to do more than say 'it stinks'. Explain to me 'why' the fluff is nonsensical.

I think I already have said it, but here it is again. Why on earth does it exsist? It doesn't seem to serve any purpose, and ALL constructs serve a purpose. What is it's purpose, other than being a skillpointeater.

Dalcassius
2006-05-11, 04:03 PM
Epiphany (Su):
An imagineered's form is indescribably enthralling and those who look upon it within 60 feet must succeed on a DC 25 will save or become Fascinated for the duration of its presence. Those who make the save are unaffected for the day. Whether or not they are enthralled they are filled with inspired ingenuity. While within range all Craft and Perform checks are made with a +10 circumstance bonus. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is charisma based.

Naturally Psionic: Imagineered have 1 bonus power point.

Psi-like Abilities:
At Will/Dream Travel, Id Insinuation, Psionic True Seeing; 3/day Call to Mind, Form of Doom, Hyperconscious, Realized Potential. Manifester level 20. Save DC's are Charisma based. Its nightmare form and construct summoning aside, this golem makes the perfect companion for any artist or bardic style character. It's sentient so there is companionship available to the creater unlike most all other golems where you get just a mindless servant. Plus, with True Seeing and Incorporealness its the pefect watch dog.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 04:48 PM
I think I already have said it, but here it is again. Why on earth does it exsist? It doesn't seem to serve any purpose, and ALL constructs serve a purpose. What is it's purpose, other than being a skillpointeater.
Well, for one, if you are running a campign that plans on having anything to do with the Plane of Dreams this thing is a perfect guardian. Psionic locales would also benefit from one of these fellows.

And as Dalcassius mentioned its a boon to many a class. Also, it goes right along with a PrC of mine called the Surrealist which is a psion who worships a deity of the Region of Dreams and can craft permanent dreamscapes. Also, it can Dream Travel at will. Thats a great boon as it could take its master all over.

The possibilities are extensive.

Maryring
2006-05-11, 05:16 PM
But then, isn't it quite powerful for a simple tool? I mean, it is stronger than golems made to guard the crypts of kings. Sorry, but I can't make heads or tails out of this critter.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-11, 07:46 PM
But then, isn't it quite powerful for a simple tool? I mean, it is stronger than golems made to guard the crypts of kings.
Its only 1 CR above a Stone Golem and 1 below an Iron Golem. The same as a Kolyarut (Inevitable). Whatchu talkin' bout?

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-11, 07:47 PM
Not only that, the only way it could cause true harm to a stone/iron golem is through summoned constructs...

Maryring
2006-05-12, 06:04 AM
It has a higher CR than 3 of 4 basic golems (not counting greater stone). And yet it is a simple tool. What does it need all those HD and CR for anyway?

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-12, 08:25 AM
It has a higher CR than 3 of 4 basic golems (not counting greater stone). And yet it is a simple tool. What does it need all those HD and CR for anyway?
Yo momma?


Honestly, its probably a hazardous place, the Region of Dreams. Why does any construct have high HD? A creature made of entire dreams, which on the Region of Dreams can be nigh infinite, is likely to be quite advanced.

A hangman golem from the MM III is a CR 13, 18 HD, and its made of ROPE.

Out of the dozen or two construct I've found so far, the majority are within one level of the Imagineered or far above it. So to make it weaker would to make it less than most constructs.

Maryring
2006-05-12, 09:29 AM
How many of those constructs were incorporeal?

And you're one to talk who created a cr 2 construct with 1, or was it 2 HD. This one shouldn't be more than CR 5 I think.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-12, 09:47 AM
How many of those constructs were incorporeal?
At least two. The Prismatic Golem for instance is an incorporeal CR 18.


And you're one to talk who created a cr 2 construct with 1, or was it 2 HD. This one shouldn't be more than CR 5 I think.
Sure, I make creatures of all HD's and CR's. The Rose Immortal was a very small construct to guard a total of one single grave. The Imagineered is generally supposed to guard the Region of Dreams.

Why a CR 5? To get it that low I'd have to remove most of its abilities.

Maryring
2006-05-12, 09:58 AM
So it is a guard now? A guard that drains skillpoints? Now I am totally confused as to what this critter really is. ???

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-12, 10:21 AM
It has many potential uses. For the love of Pete...

Maybe it could infiltrate other's dreams and gather information from them. Its a spy.

Maybe it could protect its maker from the Eberron quori. Its a bodyguard.

Maybe it could watch over a dreamscape or psionic site of power and report of beings who try to breech the borders. Its a scout.

Maybe it could inspire a psionicist and give them more insight into their own abilities. It has Dreamtelling abilities afterall. Maybe its a personal oracle.

Maybe it could communicate with being of alien minds, almost impossible to understand tongues, or coma victims. Maybe it could interpret these alien's bizarre dreams. Its a translator.

Maybe it could transport beings all across the planes through the Region of Dreams, or bring others to the Region of Dreams as a sort of neutral area for discussions as the plane spans to all creatures who dream. Its a diplomatic limousine!

Maybe its two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun. Its a fastfood lawsuit!

Akiosama
2006-05-12, 01:47 PM
Got a question, VT...

Would this thing have to bow down and pay homage and fealty to the giant (by rat mouse standards), anthropomorphic rat mouse with the high pitched voice that rules the Happiest Kingdom? * ;D

Just a thought. * ;)

My 2 E-tickets,

Game on!

Akio

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-12, 01:53 PM
*rolls a will save against confusion... and gets a 1*

Eh?

Akiosama
2006-05-12, 01:58 PM
Imagineers are what Disney calls the group of people that design the rides and whatnot for their theme parks.

Sorry for the confusion... was trying to be funny. :P

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-12, 01:59 PM
Ahhh, is it? I hadn't heard that. No, it wouldn't bow down. It'd hang around and drink coffee while they brainstormed in its presence ;)

Might even figure out how to make a <title> II without it stinking like a week dead orc.