Sherlock Holmes Vs L Lawliet

[Zencao]

Not a direct fight, but catching a serial killer.

The criminal is not magical in anyway, their methods are in the realm of reality as we know it. The criminal IS very intelligent however, rivaling Dr Hannibal Lector* in his knowledge of psychology and general intelligence and class, as well as equal to Dexter** in having a wealth of knowledge in covering up their crimes and disrupting police investigation, House*** in medical knowledge (and therefore, poisons and chemistry), and finally Jigsaw**** in practical mechanics and sheer dedication and belief in his cause.

The setting is a weird alternate universe where Sherlock Holmes and L existed together in Russia in 1962. Basically as close as I could think of to neutral ground.

L has Watari, and retains a strong influence over the police for his assistance in many unsolved cases. He is given complete authority over the officers on the case.

Sherlock has Watson and a few contacts within the police force with which to get access to the crime scene etc. He also has his dirty street Arabs (See chapter six of 'A study In Scarlet' on wikisource).

Finding a murder scene with no apparent evidence, motive, or means the police call in L. L accepts the case as interesting and goes to work through the police force. One of the officers, not being very trusted of the outside who won't even show his face to them, brings in Sherlock Holmes, who he has met personally a few times and respects more. Sherlock Holmes, more interested in his cocaine and rock'n'roll, get's drawn in by the idea of competing in a friendly competition with the 'famous' L.

The criminal IS within the police force, as such it is likely that both L and Sherlock will run into him personally (or in L's case, through proxy).

So who do you think would win? In the discussion I had with my friends, I argued that in such a case, Holmes' more 'hands on' approach would yield evidence missed by the normal flatfoots, giving him an advantage, but was argued in turn that L would have a bigger advantage in basically running the investigating task force and therefore having more official power to access information and suspects, witnesses etc.

* From 'The Silence of the lambs'
** From 'Dexter'
*** From 'House'
**** From 'Saw'

[nothingclever]

L loses because L's detective work is nonsense. He barely did any at all throughout the entire story. He isn't a real detective. He's a character the author decided to call a detective without really showing him doing any actual detective things.

What feats of crime solving can L boast of? A handful.
What feats can Holmes boast of? Numerous

Half of L's detective work is him stating a random percentage of Light being Kira or not. The other half is him second guessing himself over and over again and doing nothing but annoying other characters. "X thing Light does could be an indication that he is Kira because he just said something incriminating. On the other hand it could be proof he isn't Kira because he said something so obviously incriminating since he feels he has nothing to hide because he's just a normal person."

L has no social life or life experiences either. He spends most of his life locked up at a mysterious orphanage with a bunch of antisocial kids with issues while doing extremely complex logic puzzles and other nonsense. After leaving that place he stays inside a little room all day while he lets other people do all his talking for him. He can't even sit properly in his chair and he can't be bothered to wear shoes or comb his hair. Good game.

Sherlock Holmes is classy, sociable, well traveled, skilled in plenty of stuff, studies many things both common and obscure, etc.

What cases has L solved? None that we know of because the author never wrote about them. He didn't even catch Kira because he died and he was too caught up on the idea that he had to be 100% certain before taking out Light.

What cases has Sherlock Holmes solved? We've got several books of information.

[Seraph]

Sherlock Holmes is classy, sociable


we are both talking about the same manic-depressive heroin addict who gets his kicks from insulting people, right?

[averagejoe]

we are both talking about the same manic-depressive heroin addict who gets his kicks from insulting people, right?

He can choose to be sociable. He is a master of disguise, after all, and is quite sociable when it suits his purpose. Sociability isn't typically high on his list of priorities, but he can pull it off masterfully, playing people as deftly as he does his violin.

[Zencao]

What cases has L solved? None that we know of because the author never wrote about them. He didn't even catch Kira because he died and he was too caught up on the idea that he had to be 100% certain before taking out Light.

What cases has Sherlock Holmes solved? We've got several books of information.

I'd recommend the light novel "Death Note Another Note: The Los Angeles BB Murder Cases" for an extra book on L's detective-ing :P

[doliest]

L loses because L's detective work is nonsense. He barely did any at all throughout the entire story. He isn't a real detective. He's a character the author decided to call a detective without really showing him doing any actual detective things.

What feats of crime solving can L boast of? A handful.
What feats can Holmes boast of? Numerous

Half of L's detective work is him stating a random percentage of Light being Kira or not. The other half is him second guessing himself over and over again and doing nothing but annoying other characters. "X thing Light does could be an indication that he is Kira because he just said something incriminating. On the other hand it could be proof he isn't Kira because he said something so obviously incriminating since he feels he has nothing to hide because he's just a normal person."

L has no social life or life experiences either. He spends most of his life locked up at a mysterious orphanage with a bunch of antisocial kids with issues while doing extremely complex logic puzzles and other nonsense. After leaving that place he stays inside a little room all day while he lets other people do all his talking for him. He can't even sit properly in his chair and he can't be bothered to wear shoes or comb his hair. Good game.

Sherlock Holmes is classy, sociable, well traveled, skilled in plenty of stuff, studies many things both common and obscure, etc.

What cases has L solved? None that we know of because the author never wrote about them. He didn't even catch Kira because he died and he was too caught up on the idea that he had to be 100% certain before taking out Light.

What cases has Sherlock Holmes solved? We've got several books of information.

Someone has to overcome some serious anti-death note biases, methinks. Not to mention that L shows remarkable dective abilities routed in advanced pattern recognition, not to mention that Holmes is at times a greater jerk than L/ lacking in knowledge in many subjects if wikipedia is to be believed.

Now as far as the challenge, I'd say we need to know more of the killers habits because of Holmes and L's different detective styles. Where as Holmes is based on following a logical series of events L's biggest advantage is in pattern recognition such as when he quickly recognizes a potential second Kira based on the change in victim types which holmes style would have likely resulted in the assumption of a shift in Light's attitude.

[Haruki-kun]

L has no social life or life experiences either. He spends most of his life locked up at a mysterious orphanage with a bunch of antisocial kids with issues while doing extremely complex logic puzzles and other nonsense. After leaving that place he stays inside a little room all day while he lets other people do all his talking for him. He can't even sit properly in his chair and he can't be bothered to wear shoes or comb his hair. Good game.

Neither does Sherlock Holmes. He barely interacts with other people and lacks a lot of basic human knowledge. When Watson made a list of his skills, he realized that Holmes did not have a lot of elementary-level knowledge. In fact, Watson had to explain to him how the Solar System worked, because Sherlock had no idea, and actually disregarded it as something unimportant.

[SmartAlec]

When Watson made a list of his skills, he realized that Holmes did not have a lot of elementary-level knowledge.

That changes over the course of the stories, almost to the point of being retconned out. Holmes muses on music, quotes philosophers and real-world historical figures and generally seems considerably more worldly in later stories (that is, stories that aren't A Study in Scarlet or The Sign of Four).

Besides which, if this is Holmes post-Return, he's travelled across half the entire globe under the alias of the explorer Sigerson. He's got some life experience alright.

[BRC]

The way I see it. Holmes ability is intense attention to detail. Which means that he will get much more out of any single crime scene than L will, especially because L does not inspect the site himself. L's talents lie in, as stated before, pattern recognition, which requires enough murders to occur for patterns to begin appearing. There must have been at least a hundred Kira killings before L came into the game, while Holmes usually solves his cases with only a single murder.

Therefore, unless the murderer totally obliterates the crime scene after each murder, chances are Holmes will find something useful from it. While L was the perfect person when it came to tracking a killer like Kira, who leaves no direct evidence, I havn't seen him actually work with a crime scene and hard evidence itself. So L wins If the killer commits enough murders in quick succession for L to decipher an incriminating pattern before Holmes figures it out based on things he observed directly.

Therefore, I'll go for Holmes. Because L will only get it if the killer leaves a very incriminating pattern that he can decipher.

[averagejoe]

Someone has to overcome some serious anti-death note biases, methinks. Not to mention that L shows remarkable dective abilities routed in advanced pattern recognition, not to mention that Holmes is at times a greater jerk than L/ lacking in knowledge in many subjects if wikipedia is to be believed.

Well, it isn't entirely unfair. A lot of L's supposed deductions seem to come from nowhere, and have scant justification. Perhaps this could be seen as a weakness of the author and not the character himself, however.

[doliest]

Well, it isn't entirely unfair. A lot of L's supposed deductions seem to come from nowhere, and have scant justification. Perhaps this could be seen as a weakness of the author and not the character himself, however.

True, but that in turn does not imply a lack of skill from L, sense he also makes rather well supported claims or follows through on a logical arguement, not to mention as clever pointed out death note offers a short manga/37 episodes of an anime of which L is not in all whereas Holmes has an entire book series to go through what he can do.

[nothingclever]

I rather look at how a character was written instead of how he was intended to be. Like let's say I write a story and I put a character in it that has the description "better than Sherlock Holmes in every way imaginable" but I make him look like an idiot because I suck at writing. Is my character functionally better than Sherlock Holmes? Nope.

That's how it is with Death Note in a way only worse. Sherlock Holmes is said to be a world class detective and so is L. There's nothing that specifically says L is better. So who's better portrayed/written as a detective? Sherlock Holmes. He has a way more extensive background and the cases he solves are a heck of a lot more realistically done. The writing of his stories is simply better all around when describing his work. Sherlock Holmes doesn't say randomly there's a 57% chance that guy is the culprit. He spends a page listing all his reasons and recounting what he did throughout the book to come to his conclusion.

The portly client puffed out his chest with an appearance of some little pride and pulled a dirty and wrinkled newspaper from the inside pocket of his greatcoat. As he glanced down the advertisement column, with his head thrust forward and the paper flattened out upon his knee, I took a good look at the man and endeavoured, after the fashion of my companion, to read the indications which might be presented by his dress or appearance.

I did not gain very much, however, by my inspection. Our visitor bore every mark of being an average commonplace British tradesman, obese, pompous, and slow. He wore rather baggy gray shepherd’s check trousers, a not over-clean black frockcoat, unbuttoned in the front, and a drab waistcoat with a heavy brassy Albert chain, and a square pierced bit of metal dangling down as an ornament. A frayed top-hat and a faded brown overcoat with a wrinkled velvet collar lay upon a chair beside him. Altogether, look as I would, there was nothing remarkable about the man save his blazing red head, and the expression of extreme chagrin and discontent upon his features.

Sherlock Holmes’s quick eye took in my occupation, and he shook his head with a smile as he noticed my questioning glances. “Beyond the obvious facts that he has at some time done manual labour, that he takes snuff, that he is a Freemason. that he has been in China, and that he has done a considerable amount of writing lately, I can deduce nothing else.”

Mr. Jabez Wilson started up in his chair, with his forefinger upon the paper, but his eyes upon my companion.

“How, in the name of good-fortune, did you know all that, Mr. Holmes?” he asked. “How did you know, for example, that I did manual labour? It’s as true as gospel, for I began as a ship’s carpenter.”

“Your hands, my dear sir. Your right hand is quite a size larger than your left. You have worked with it, and the muscles are more developed.”

“Well, the snuff, then, and the Freemasonry?”

“I won’t insult your intelligence by telling you how I read that, especially as, rather against the strict rules of your order, you use an arc-and-compass breastpin.”

“Ah, of course, I forgot that. But the writing?”

“What else can be indicated by that right cuff so very shiny for five inches, and the left one with the smooth patch near the elbow where you rest it upon the desk?”

“Well, but China?”

“The fish that you have tattooed immediately above your right wrist could only have been done in China. I have made a small study of tattoo marks and have even contributed to the literature of the subject. That trick of staining the fishes’ scales of a delicate pink is quite peculiar to China. When, in addition, I see a Chinese coin hanging from your watch-chain, the matter becomes even more simple.”

Mr. Jabez Wilson laughed heavily. “Well, I never!” said he. “I thought at first that you had done something clever, but I see that there was nothing in it, after all.”

“I begin to think, Watson,” said Holmes, “that I make a mistake in explaining. ‘Omne ignotum pro magnifico,’ you know, and my poor little reputation, such as it is, will suffer shipwreck if I am so candid. Can you not find the advertisement, Mr. Wilson?”
Real detective work. Not random 42% he's the murderer garbage.
I'm not biased. I just felt like posting because I don't like people calling a story like Death Note a mystery when there was no mystery to solve and when people say Light and L are amazing detectives when they did very little investigating/problem solving/whatever.

[Erts]

Nothingclever has it right.

L notices patterns.

Holmes notices these and personalities.
We probably need to know more about the killers personality.

EDIT: I think the criminal would beat them. The intellegence of Hannibal (crazy smart already,) Dexter (scary and crazy smart, leaves no trace) House (means he would never leave any medical trace, or be able to kill people with strange poisons which don't leave traces, and House notices patterns and psychology well) and Jigsaw????

:eek:
Moriaty has nothing on this monster. He would probably figure out L and Sherlock Holmes are trying to solve it, drop false trails all over the place, notice patterns (as in, where is L? And where is Holmes? Where does all this cocaine come from?) and kill them.

He would never leave a trace. He would act completely normal, and kill them.

They might beat him. Might. Depends on circumstance.

[Mando Knight]

EDIT: I think the criminal would beat them. The intellegence of Hannibal (crazy smart already,) Dexter (scary and crazy smart, leaves no trace) House (means he would never leave any medical trace, or be able to kill people with strange poisons which don't leave traces, and House notices patterns and psychology well) and Jigsaw????

:eek:
Moriaty has nothing on this monster. He would probably figure out L and Sherlock Holmes are trying to solve it, drop false trails all over the place, notice patterns (as in, where is L? And where is Holmes? Where does all this cocaine come from?) and kill them.

He would never leave a trace. He would act completely normal, and kill them.

They might beat him. Might. Depends on circumstance.

On top of that, they're in Soviet Russia during the Space Race. How the heroes can expect to get decent funding is anyone's guess.

[Renegade Paladin]

(as in, where is L? And where is Holmes? Where does all this cocaine come from?)
Holmes never took drugs while on a case; he used them to occupy his mind when the business was dry.

[WitchSlayer]

Even Batman says Sherlock Holmes is the World's Greatest Detective.
Are you doubting Batman?

[Finn Solomon]

I love Sherlock, but he is extremely overrated. It hurts me to say it, but it's true. What many people don't realise is that the bulk of Holmes's knowledge relies on factors that are simply not relevant in today's era. For example, being able to identify different types tobacco ash is not very useful when people smoke cigarettes today. Similarly, Holmes's knowledge of chemical forensic techniques extends just as far as being able to identify the presence of blood. Just the presence, mind you, not even who it belongs to. He can deduce things just by looking and he is supremely intelligent, but for solving a case in today's world I'd rather go for David Hodges from CSI.

Still in terms of this match-up alone I'd still go with Holmes. L is pathetically written as a detective, so much so that a man from the late 1890s could still beat him hollow. Put Holmes up against any reasonably competent detective from the modern day, however, and he'd have a much harder time of winning.

[doliest]

Wait...I just noticed the setting! I don't think either of them will get very far with the NKVD breathing down their necks.

[Zencao]

Nothingclever has it right.

L notices patterns.

Holmes notices these and personalities.
We probably need to know more about the killers personality.

EDIT: I think the criminal would beat them. The intellegence of Hannibal (crazy smart already,) Dexter (scary and crazy smart, leaves no trace) House (means he would never leave any medical trace, or be able to kill people with strange poisons which don't leave traces, and House notices patterns and psychology well) and Jigsaw????

:eek:
Moriaty has nothing on this monster. He would probably figure out L and Sherlock Holmes are trying to solve it, drop false trails all over the place, notice patterns (as in, where is L? And where is Holmes? Where does all this cocaine come from?) and kill them.

He would never leave a trace. He would act completely normal, and kill them.

They might beat him. Might. Depends on circumstance.

While I admit the criminal is a bit over-powered, L was able to find a person using a magic notebook that gives anyone anywhere a heart attack while leaving no trace, and Sherlock Holmes... Well look at what Batman said :P Two on one? I don't think he's getting away. It's just a matter of who'd get to him first.

And for the sake of equalization, let's say the secret police is on their side too.


I love Sherlock, but he is extremely overrated. It hurts me to say it, but it's true. What many people don't realise is that the bulk of Holmes's knowledge relies on factors that are simply not relevant in today's era. For example, being able to identify different types tobacco ash is not very useful when people smoke cigarettes today. Similarly, Holmes's knowledge of chemical forensic techniques extends just as far as being able to identify the presence of blood. Just the presence, mind you, not even who it belongs to. He can deduce things just by looking and he is supremely intelligent, but for solving a case in today's world I'd rather go for David Hodges from CSI.

Still in terms of this match-up alone I'd still go with Holmes. L is pathetically written as a detective, so much so that a man from the late 1890s could still beat him hollow. Put Holmes up against any reasonably competent detective from the modern day, however, and he'd have a much harder time of winning.

Ah true, however it is solely because of the era that Holmes developed those skills, if he had been born in this decade, he would have learnt only things relevant to today's crime (such as advanced forensics and computers) while still ignoring other stuff (like T.V. and the solar system).

[JeminiZero]

Ah true, however it is solely because of the era that Holmes developed those skills, if he had been born in this decade, he would have learnt only things relevant to today's crime (such as advanced forensics and computers) while still ignoring other stuff (like T.V. and the solar system).

Indeed. (Shamelessly copied from Nothingclever):


Sherlock Holmes’s quick eye took in my occupation, and he shook his head with a smile as he noticed my questioning glances. “Beyond the obvious facts that he smokes Malboro light menthol cigerettes, where his friends prefer Camel original, that he has recently been involved in a car accident, and that he is a convicted pedophile, I can deduce nothing else.”

Mr. John Smith started up in his chair, with his forefinger upon the paper, but his eyes upon my companion.

“How, in the name of good-fortune, did you know all that, Mr. Holmes?” he asked. “How did you know, for example, that I smoke Malboro light menthol, and my friends prefer Camel?”

“I smelt the difference between what was in your breath, and what was lingering on your suit. Camel tends to have a stronger undertone, and there was enough of it clinging to your jacket for me to conclude that the exposure was systematic, rather than from a one-off visit to some bar.”

“Well, the Car accident?”

“Based on your accent, demeanour, and most importantly of all, the address on your namecard, I surmised you were local. Based on the rental car you parked by the curb, and the stitches on your forehead, I deduced your original vehicle must have been wrecked in some unfortunate smash-up.”

“Ah, of course, I forgot that. But how did you know I was a convicted pedophile?”

“Well, My Smith, even as we speak, a mob of what I can only presume to be angry parents, have gathered outside the building holding anti-pedophile placards. Since you are the only person who has entered the premises in the past few hours, I infer that they are referring to you. Watson, if you could be so kind as to go out and disperse the unruly crowd.”

“Damn you Holmes. I'm a Doctor, not the SWAT riot police.”

[Fri]

Aww man... Now I really want to set a match up between Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot. But I must have a worthy enough scenario.

[averagejoe]

“Damn you Holmes. I'm a Doctor, not the SWAT riot police.”

:smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

And no-one has mentioned the thing that'll cinch it for Holmes if push comes to shove.

Holmes can snap spines with his bare hands.

I mean, this team will get close enough the killer will want to deal with them.

And when that happens, Holmes will demonstrate his often overlooked skills at kicking arse. Seriously, man bends steel bars with his bare hands.

[Lord Seth]

Nothingclever has it right.

L notices patterns.

Holmes notices these and personalities.
We probably need to know more about the killers personality.

EDIT: I think the criminal would beat them. The intellegence of Hannibal (crazy smart already,) Dexter (scary and crazy smart, leaves no trace) House (means he would never leave any medical trace, or be able to kill people with strange poisons which don't leave traces, and House notices patterns and psychology well) and Jigsaw????Jigsaw wasn't particularly impressive. Two ordinary cops tracked him down, and would've caught him if not for the fact they both got massive Idiot Balls just so the plot would work.

And House? To get drugs, he forged a signature, and didn't even do a good job of it. He would've gone to prison if not for a deus ex machina ending to that arc. If he were smart, he would've at least done some practicing in faking Wilson's signature. The real signature and fake one didn't even look alike to a nontrained eye.

[Zencao]

Jigsaw wasn't particularly impressive. Two ordinary cops tracked him down, and would've caught him if not for the fact they both got massive Idiot Balls just so the plot would work.

And House? To get drugs, he forged a signature, and didn't even do a good job of it. He would've gone to prison if not for a deus ex machina ending to that arc. If he were smart, he would've at least done some practicing in faking Wilson's signature. The real signature and fake one didn't even look alike to a nontrained eye.

Well, Jigsaws mechanic skills (which were however you look at it, pretty clever) and his devotion. House's medical knowledge, not his forgery skills :P

[Lord Seth]

Well, Jigsaws mechanic skills (which were however you look at it, pretty clever) and his devotion. House's medical knowledge, not his forgery skills :PThat still doesn't change the fact, and I repeat: Two idiot cops figured out where he was. Any halfway decent detective would've therefore done much better. Honestly, everyone was an idiot in Saw, and the only reason Jigsaw gets away with things is because he's surrounded by said idiots. So I have to say that Jigsaw would be easily caught by any detective who had the slightest hint of competence, and any actually competent detective would've figured it out easily.

As to House, what I was pointing out with the forgery skills was that while he may know a lot about medicine, he doesn't really have the foresight in things like crimes in order to do anything decent in a crime. I'm not even saying he needed good forgery skills; I'm just saying he should've at least done some practicing so it LOOKED like Wilson's signature. He may be good at diagnosing things, but the fact he couldn't even try to be halfway smart with the forgery makes me dubious he'd do well with any more complex crimes.

[doliest]

You're missing the point; It's not their skill as criminals he's adding it's their specific abilitys. Jigsaw was a master of mechanics and House is a master of medicine.

I also think we're missing the fact that L has Watari which gives him access to a good deal of economic and political clout(He got a building built in downtown wherever-deathnote-is-set, which considering what Urban Japan is like, that says something.) Not to mention the fact that Holmes can't get very far working unofficially in Soviet Russia.

[Mando Knight]

I also think we're missing the fact that L has Watari which gives him access to a good deal of economic and political clout(He got a building built in downtown wherever-deathnote-is-set, which considering what Urban Japan is like, that says something.) Not to mention the fact that Holmes can't get very far working unofficially in Soviet Russia.

Except it's Soviet Russia. Don't think Watari has much clout there.

[doliest]

Except it's Soviet Russia. Don't think Watari has much clout there.

True, aside from the being rich part of course.

[Erts]

Fine.

Dexter? He is smart.
As is Hannibal.
Jigsaw, while he might not be that smart in some respects is a pretty good Xanatos Gabiter.
Dexter never leaves a trace. And Hannibal is a genius.
What might happen is Holmes and L will awake in a room with chains around their ankles and hacksaws, and they will be informed how pathetic their lives are and how they should learn to enjoy them more.

[chiasaur11]

You're missing the point; It's not their skill as criminals he's adding it's their specific abilitys. Jigsaw was a master of mechanics and House is a master of medicine.

I also think we're missing the fact that L has Watari which gives him access to a good deal of economic and political clout(He got a building built in downtown wherever-deathnote-is-set, which considering what Urban Japan is like, that says something.) Not to mention the fact that Holmes can't get very far working unofficially in Soviet Russia.

Leg-breaking violence helps any criminal investigation, and THAT Holmes can deliver.

I mean, it's how the local police work. He'll fit right in.

[Zencao]

Fine.

Dexter? He is smart.
As is Hannibal.
Jigsaw, while he might not be that smart in some respects is a pretty good Xanatos Gabiter.
Dexter never leaves a trace. And Hannibal is a genius.
What might happen is Holmes and L will awake in a room with chains around their ankles and hacksaws, and they will be informed how pathetic their lives are and how they should learn to enjoy them more.

I smell fanfiction brewing...

[chiasaur11]

I smell fanfiction brewing...

And I smell a grade "A" beatdown.

Trust me, the beatdown smells much nicer than the fanfics. The terrifying, terrifying fanfics.

[Zencao]

And I smell a grade "A" beatdown.

Trust me, the beatdown smells much nicer than the fanfics. The terrifying, terrifying fanfics.

Pffffffft! I smell bacon!

...Ohhh bacon.

I'll be right back...

[Erts]

It all depends on skill in the end.

For the hell of it, throw in more crazy geniuses.

A whole new kind of vs thread on the forum!

[doliest]

Fine.

Dexter? He is smart.
As is Hannibal.
Jigsaw, while he might not be that smart in some respects is a pretty good Xanatos Gabiter.
Dexter never leaves a trace. And Hannibal is a genius.
What might happen is Holmes and L will awake in a room with chains around their ankles and hacksaws, and they will be informed how pathetic their lives are and how they should learn to enjoy them more.

Not to mention Holmes will be told that he should be nicer to people and L told that if he keeps eating sweets, he's going to get Diabetes.

[Zencao]

Not to mention Holmes will be told that he should be nicer to people and L told that if he keeps eating sweets, he's going to get Diabetes.

Makes me wonder what sort of traps he'd make for them, for Holmes probably something to do with his willful ignorance of common stuff and general apathy to anything non-crime.

For L... Well I can't think of anything weird enough...

[Erts]

Well, see, this is almost like challenge for the criminal.

Can I get two of some of the most apathetic charecters ever into caring about people and their lives?

He'd probably kill cute little stuffed animals in front of them.

[Zencao]

Well, see, this is almost like challenge for the criminal.

Can I get two of some of the most apathetic charecters ever into caring about people and their lives?

He'd probably kill cute little stuffed animals in front of them.

Someone should make another thread:

Villain sue Vs Apathy :smallbiggrin:

[Erts]

Someone should make another thread:

Villain sue Vs Apathy :smallbiggrin:

I think I actually will do this, just with Jigsaw.

Quick, give me some of the most apathetic characters!

Hmmm.

House, Holmes, L, the Joker, Tyler Durden, and Deadpool.
Anymore?

[chiasaur11]

Someone should make another thread:

Villain sue Vs Apathy :smallbiggrin:

They have a fight.

Apathy wins.

Apathy man, apathy man.

[Zencao]

I think I actually will do this, just with Jigsaw.

Quick, give me some of the most apathetic characters!

Hmmm.

House, Holmes, L, the Joker, Tyler Durden, and Deadpool.
Anymore?

I'm not sure about Tyler Durden being on the list, after all, he's an aspect of another persons personality, and that person cured themselves.

Also Deadpool and Joker, are not really apathetic just... Insane. Jigsaw doesn't cure insanity (quite the opposite really...) and needs his victims to be able to comprehend what the hell is going on and why.

How about... Alucard? Johan? Hannibal Lector?

[chiasaur11]

I'm not sure about Tyler Durden being on the list, after all, he's an aspect of another persons personality, and that person cured themselves.

Also Deadpool and Joker, are not really apathetic just... Insane. Jigsaw doesn't cure insanity (quite the opposite really...) and needs his victims to be able to comprehend what the hell is going on and why.

How about... Alucard? Johan? Hannibal Lector?

Deadpool would be great anyway. Just because Deadpool.

Hm, apathy.

Well, for self pitying apathy Marvin the Paranoid Android would be a fine choice. No way to make him feel worse than he does already.

[Erts]

I'm not sure about Tyler Durden being on the list, after all, he's an aspect of another persons personality, and that person cured themselves.

Also Deadpool and Joker, are not really apathetic just... Insane. Jigsaw doesn't cure insanity (quite the opposite really...) and needs his victims to be able to comprehend what the hell is going on and why.

How about... Alucard? Johan? Hannibal Lector?

True, true. The Joker and Deadpool would comprehend, just would't care.

From what I've heard, isn't alucard really sad underneath it all?

[Arakune]

I'm not sure about Tyler Durden being on the list, after all, he's an aspect of another persons personality, and that person cured themselves.

Also Deadpool and Joker, are not really apathetic just... Insane. Jigsaw doesn't cure insanity (quite the opposite really...) and needs his victims to be able to comprehend what the hell is going on and why.

How about... Alucard? Johan? Hannibal Lector?

Johan? Jigsaw will enter in his own trap and activate it while apologising to him...

[Zencao]

Johan? Jigsaw will enter in his own trap and activate it while apologising to him...

Haha... That's quite a funny image :P

[Erts]

Haha... That's quite a funny image :P

Gotta ask, where is Johan from?

[Zaphrasz]

You put House as a part of the villain. You do realize that he was based (http://www.housemd-guide.com/holmesian.php) partially on Sherlock Holmes? The deductive reasoning, the drug addiction, the name, (Holmes=Homes=House) they also have the same apartment number. Holmes won't be able to beat himself combined with a few other super geniuses. But then, neither will L, because he is an idiot and Death Note is not nearly as intelligent as it is made out to be.

[Prime32]

And no-one has mentioned the thing that'll cinch it for Holmes if push comes to shove.

Holmes can snap spines with his bare hands.

I mean, this team will get close enough the killer will want to deal with them.

And when that happens, Holmes will demonstrate his often overlooked skills at kicking arse. Seriously, man bends steel bars with his bare hands.
And L has 1337 capoiera skills - very difficult to defend against if you aren't familiar with it. Also, Watari is an expert sniper. :smalltongue:

As for that percentages thing, according to the author L made them up on the spot. He only ever mentioned any percentage if he was over 90% sure of something.

It's been mentioned that some of the other characters listed were based on Holmes. You do realise that L was based on Holmes? Come on, "Watari"? Watson. He's even (mostly) British.

[darkblade]

It's been mentioned that some of the other characters listed were based on Holmes. You do realise that L was based on Holmes? Come on, "Watari"? Watson. He's even (mostly) British.

Sorry obvious joke. (Holmes - L)= Homes = House therefore Holmes - House = L.

L is the modern remains of Holmes after they finished making House.

[chiasaur11]

Sorry obvious joke. (Holmes - L)= Homes = House therefore Holmes - House = L.

L is the modern remains of Holmes after they finished making House.

In other words, the detectiving and face smashing.

Oddly, the skills that are best for crime committing and or fighting. Mister criminal got the short end of that stick.

[Erts]

You put House as a part of the villain. You do realize that he was based (http://www.housemd-guide.com/holmesian.php) partially on Sherlock Holmes? The deductive reasoning, the drug addiction, the name, (Holmes=Homes=House) they also have the same apartment number. Holmes won't be able to beat himself combined with a few other super geniuses. But then, neither will L, because he is an idiot and Death Note is not nearly as intelligent as it is made out to be.

I raised that point, OP said that it is the medical knowledge of House that the villian has.

Still, if it was all of the villians intellegense, than it would be impossible for them to win.

[doliest]

I raised that point, OP said that it is the medical knowledge of House that the villian has.

Still, if it was all of the villians intellegense, than it would be impossible for them to win.

I'm still pretty sure that Holmes and L, even teamed up, are screwed. Nothing short of the NKVD could win here...wait-

[EvilRoeSlade]

Gotta ask, where is Johan from?

He's from the manga Monster (and though there's no supernatural elements in that manga, he's basically the reason for the title).

He's a blond-haired pretty boy who specializes in mind rape and can make you commit suicide just by giving you a creepy smile.

[chiasaur11]

I'm still pretty sure that Holmes and L, even teamed up, are screwed. Nothing short of the NKVD could win here...wait-

You're kidding.

BATMAN said Holmes was his better in detectiving, and Batman's the best there is in theoretical fight threads. Combine that with a conspicuous lack of combat skills in the depection of the criminal, and Holmes and his very able assistant should have this one done.

Only team up I can see doing better is Father Brown and Detective Chimp. They'd have the case solved inside of a day. And the closing comments would be epic.

[doliest]

You're kidding.

BATMAN said Holmes was his better in detectiving, and Batman's the best there is in theoretical fight threads. Combine that with a conspicuous lack of combat skills in the depection of the criminal, and Holmes and his very able assistant should have this one done.

Only team up I can see doing better is Father Brown and Detective Chimp. They'd have the case solved inside of a day. And the closing comments would be epic.

The problem is that we have some of the most acclompished criminal masterminds in movie history working together;We have a criminal with enough skill in medicine to pull off any poisoning and fake virtually any type of natural cause; We have a criminal with enough mechanical skills to wire up chambers of death even with the paultry resources available, we have a man with the tongue of Hannibal Lector and the skill at avoiding capture of a hardened serial killer. If they find evidence that someone commited a crime they have the wrong man.

[chiasaur11]

The problem is that we have some of the most acclompished criminal masterminds in movie history working together;We have a criminal with enough skill in medicine to pull off any poisoning and fake virtually any type of natural cause; We have a criminal with enough mechanical skills to wire up chambers of death even with the paultry resources available, we have a man with the tongue of Hannibal Lector and the skill at avoiding capture of a hardened serial killer. If they find evidence that someone commited a crime they have the wrong man.

...Um, all of those guys but (not sure on this one) Dexter (Including House) were caught by guys less skilled than Holmes OR L. Well, not Jigsaw, but everyone in his whole friggin world is a moron. No-one leaves no evidence, and the kind of deathtraps jigsaw pulls would have fingerprints both literal and metaphorical all over it. Combine that with an ego that would all but require recognition of one kind or another, and we got an opening for our heroes.

Not that this kind of thing isn't still better suited to Brown and Chimp.

[doliest]

...Um, all of those guys but (not sure on this one) Dexter (Including House) were caught by guys less skilled than Holmes OR L. Well, not Jigsaw, but everyone in his whole friggin world is a moron. No-one leaves no evidence, and the kind of deathtraps jigsaw pulls would have fingerprints both literal and metaphorical all over it. Combine that with an ego that would all but require recognition of one kind or another, and we got an opening for our heroes.

Not that this kind of thing isn't still better suited to Brown and Chimp.

Generally from what I understand we're combining their talents together so the criminal basis would be Dexter with the specific skills of the others added together, but I'm a little confused by the specifics of everything going together.

[darkblade]

The problem is that we have some of the most acclompished criminal masterminds in movie history working together;We have a criminal with enough skill in medicine to pull off any poisoning and fake virtually any type of natural cause; We have a criminal with enough mechanical skills to wire up chambers of death even with the paultry resources available, we have a man with the tongue of Hannibal Lector and the skill at avoiding capture of a hardened serial killer. If they find evidence that someone commited a crime they have the wrong man.

It is at this point there only slim hope would be L's "I'm going to make stuff up and pretend to be certain that it is you who is the killer until you make a mistake but until then we're going to mess around playing pointless mind games with each other" style detectiving. If and only if they happen to pass by the super criminal and talk to him a bit but considering how much of a Sue we got on our hands here that is terribly unlikely.

[doliest]

It is at this point there only slim hope would be L's "I'm going to make stuff up and pretend to be certain that it is you who is the killer until you make a mistake but until then we're going to mess around playing pointless mind games with each other" style detectiving. If and only if they happen to pass by the super criminal and talk to him a bit but considering how much of a Sue we got on our hands here that is terribly unlikely.

This leads me to another question; Would L's anti-social nature make him immune to Hannibal's ability to talk people to death?

[Verruckt]

This leads me to another question; Would L's anti-social nature make him immune to Hannibal's ability to talk people to death?

No, because then Hannibal mind rapes him for being anti-social, he's a walking talking Silent Hill made manifest, and he might eat your brain.

[chiasaur11]

No, because then Hannibal mind rapes him for being anti-social, he's a walking talking Silent Hill made manifest, and he might eat your brain.

So, L's helpless...

But a few sunflowers and some Mellons should deal with the issue.

[doliest]

So, L's helpless...

But a few sunflowers and some Mellons should deal with the issue.

Of course once Holmes insults our little crossbreed of evil he's going to wake up chained to a radiator...

[chiasaur11]

Of course once Holmes insults our little crossbreed of evil he's going to wake up chained to a radiator...

I was making a plants vs zombies reference.

Science has recently confirmed any group of braineaters can be countered by a good enough gardener.

[doliest]

I was making a plants vs zombies reference.

Science has recently confirmed any group of braineaters can be countered by a good enough gardener.

True but as everyone knows Triffids can't fight.

[Anteros]

Well, most of the characters making up the villain in this thread are actually fairly incompetant compared to even real world criminals.

L is also very incompetant by real world standards.

Holmes is actually quite competant.

This sorts itself out rather nicely.

Since Holmes is the only one involved who doesn't rely entirely upon the power of the plot+bad writing, and theoretically we have no plot or writer, it's pretty simple.

[Silver2195]

Let's be fair. Holmes benefits from his share of bad writing.

Edit: To elaborate: Holmes often makes confident deductions (which turn out to be right) that are based on rather flimsy evidence.

[GoC]

Let's be fair. Holmes benefits from his share of bad writing.

Edit: To elaborate: Holmes often makes confident deductions (which turn out to be right) that are based on rather flimsy evidence.

That's because a lot of the evidence goes unmentioned by Holmes.

[BRC]

People have been calling L incompetent. In fact, he's rather smart, but his area of expertise consists largely of guesswork without any hard evidence. Holmes on the other hand, works almost entierly WITH hard evidence and precise attention to detail. L is the wikipedia of crime solving. He's smart, he knows alot, he's probably going to be useful, but he can't verify anything he says, that's up to you. Holmes on the other hand, works with hard evidence. Remember, he's famously quoted as saying "Once you eliminate the impossible whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true", he would likely scoff at L's armchair guesswork detecting. Then Watson would tell L he needs to eat healthier, and make Watari stop giving L sweets before he gets diabetes. L will then curl up into a ball and cry while Holmes gets on to solving the case.

[lisiecki]

People have been calling L incompetent. In fact, he's rather smart, but his area of expertise consists largely of guesswork without any hard evidence.

Im not sure thats detective work

It sounds a lot more like "Makes ALOT of random guesses, and is right sometimes"

[doliest]

Im not sure thats detective work

It sounds a lot more like "Makes ALOT of random guesses, and is right sometimes"

Better summed up as lots of guesswork and is always right....sort of like House.

[lisiecki]

Better summed up as lots of guesswork and is always right....sort of like House.

Ya, but L dosn't have Wilson there to randomly give him the inspiration to solve the case.

[Verruckt]

Better summed up as lots of guesswork and is always right....sort of like House.

Except House does have evidence to work from. He's got symptoms and an extensive backlog of cases from which he can make educated guesses. L just spews numbers.

[doliest]

Except House does have evidence to work from. He's got symptoms and an extensive backlog of cases from which he can make educated guesses. L just spews numbers.

Of course if he did have evidence it wouldn't show up; I mean the shows from Light's POV, not to mention the fact that Sherlock has to explain himself whereas L can essientially act without answering to anybody. If he said the ghost of the emporer was Kira, they'd hire an exorcist instead of asking for evidence.

[Coidzor]

Given it's Soviet Russia... What kind of resources could this killer realistically have access to, even if he's doing all of this while being a corrupt member of the state police(almost obligatorily in Moscow)?

Hmm, I know they were still doing a bit of political removal in those days, so I wonder what his chances of getting erased are before he's caught... And how easily he'd be able to obfuscate his medical background if he's police....

...If anything the specialized training he would require to take on the House aspect just narrows the field of suspects... Actually, most of his aspect-backgrounds would require some fairly heavy training in his background that would require hiding or else the confluence of all of these traits would make it really hard for him to maintain his cover.

And what's his party rank? The OP made it kinda seem like he was at least Mid-level outer party...

[Corncracker]

To expand on Johan, I'd put him as having an even slicker tounge then Hannible.

He as described as having the inteligence and Charisma that was possed by Hitler during World War 2, and they do an excelent job at conveying it.

As described by Lunge, an interpol inspector, a suspect will always leave something behind at a scene, anyone who could do so would have to be a monster. Some kind of evidence, or feeling, something. However a scene Johan left behind had nothing. No evidence, no trail, no leads, not a thing.

You could combine the talents of all of those guys, and it wouldn't match the cruelty, intelligence, and persuasion possessed by Johan. Neither L nor Holmes could stand a chance against him.

[Crow]

Aww man... Now I really want to set a match up between Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot. But I must have a worthy enough scenario.

There is a worthy matchup!

Interestingly, having never heard of L Lawliet before today, when somebody mentioned an orphanage I was pretty sure he was an anime character of some sort. Sad.

[chiasaur11]

To expand on Johan, I'd put him as having an even slicker tounge then Hannible.

He as described as having the inteligence and Charisma that was possed by Hitler during World War 2, and they do an excelent job at conveying it.

As described by Lunge, an interpol inspector, a suspect will always leave something behind at a scene, anyone who could do so would have to be a monster. Some kind of evidence, or feeling, something. However a scene Johan left behind had nothing. No evidence, no trail, no leads, not a thing.

You could combine the talents of all of those guys, and it wouldn't match the cruelty, intelligence, and persuasion possessed by Johan. Neither L nor Holmes could stand a chance against him.

What about Chesterton's Father Brown?

Man well acquainted with evil, all I'm saying.

[Dragonus45]

That's because a lot of the evidence goes unmentioned by Holmes.

So Holmes gets to leave all his evidence in his head, but reputation makes up for it. But L cant do the same. Seems like a double standard.

[Coidzor]

To expand on Johan, I'd put him as having an even slicker tounge then Hannible.

He as described as having the inteligence and Charisma that was possed by Hitler during World War 2, and they do an excelent job at conveying it.

As described by Lunge, an interpol inspector, a suspect will always leave something behind at a scene, anyone who could do so would have to be a monster. Some kind of evidence, or feeling, something. However a scene Johan left behind had nothing. No evidence, no trail, no leads, not a thing.

You could combine the talents of all of those guys, and it wouldn't match the cruelty, intelligence, and persuasion possessed by Johan. Neither L nor Holmes could stand a chance against him.

Except a man that intelligent and charismatic would be in the inner party by now and either be in the secret police or some other position which he has bigger crimes to commit anyway or have been recognized for the threat he is and removed.

Unless he likes pretending to be stupid enough to not be a threat or gain notice without losing out on a relatively comfortable position due to his love of hand-made homicide...

...

... Actually the scenario itself seems to be suggesting that the coroner did it. I just noticed that.

So it basically takes them realizing that someone is repeatedly and willfully making it so that no evidence is shown but with enough for them to realize it's potentially the same individual or group doing the killings. One of them has to deduce that it has to be someone with the knowledge of human anatomy and skill to keep on killing them without leaving a clear indication of (to make a simplified example) how the bodies were interacting when they applied the killing force. I give it about fifty-fifty that holmes can eventually figure out they're being screwed with internally and not just from random bureaucratic hooplah either if this guy is such a demigod, which further narrows it down to people who could have picked up this knowledge, training, and skill within their organization.

It's like... Setting, L, Holmes, and demigod of murder are all at play here and bleck. Too many variables.

Need to get back to just the two...

[GoC]

So Holmes gets to leave all his evidence in his head, but reputation makes up for it. But L cant do the same. Seems like a double standard.
Holmes keeps some of the evidence in his head. L keeps all of it there.

[Dragonus45]

Holmes keeps some of the evidence in his head. L keeps all of it there.

Some or all, i remember L letting quite a bit out. People just like homes more, hence the double standard. Nothing L said was enough and if Holmes were to "pull an L" then people wouldn't blink. His reputation gets to speak for him. Sounds like a double standard to me, unless I'm misusing the term.

[Anteros]

Some or all, i remember L letting quite a bit out. People just like homes more, hence the double standard. Nothing L said was enough and if Holmes were to "pull an L" then people wouldn't blink. His reputation gets to speak for him. Sounds like a double standard to me, unless I'm misusing the term.

Th difference is that Holmes does sometimes explain his reasoning, while L hardly ever does. (And the few times he actually does explain anything, it's obviously just ridiculous guessing.)

Thus, people are much more willing to give Holmes the benefit of the doubt instead of L. Maybe if L actually did some...ya'know..detective work at some point in the entire series it would be different.

[Prime32]

Th difference is that Holmes does sometimes explain his reasoning, while L hardly ever does. (And the few times he actually does explain anything, it's obviously just ridiculous guessing.)

Thus, people are much more willing to give Holmes the benefit of the doubt instead of L. Maybe if L actually did some...ya'know..detective work at some point in the entire series it would be different.L doesn't explain things because it keeps the criminals on their toes. :smallwink: Or maybe he doesn't think the people around him are smart enough to understand (he's not known for his ability to relate to people).

[TheEmerged]

I'd recommend the light novel "Death Note Another Note: The Los Angeles BB Murder Cases" for an extra book on L's detective-ing :P

If this has been answered already I apologize but... That source isn't as useful as you might think.

Naomi essentially solves the case.The person we're led to believe is L during the story is actually the murderer. We see him 'solving' the case as a way of taunting L.

My money would be with L, for the record. Holmes is over-rated, in my opinion.

As for L's habit of "spewing numbers", per Death Note 13 the authors say this is an attempt at humor on L's part -- supposedly if L says there's even a 1% chance, what he's really saying is that it's his current theory.

[Corncracker]

Except a man that intelligent and charismatic would be in the inner party by now and either be in the secret police or some other position which he has bigger crimes to commit anyway or have been recognized for the threat he is and removed.

Unless he likes pretending to be stupid enough to not be a threat or gain notice without losing out on a relatively comfortable position due to his love of hand-made homicide...

...

... Actually the scenario itself seems to be suggesting that the coroner did it. I just noticed that.

So it basically takes them realizing that someone is repeatedly and willfully making it so that no evidence is shown but with enough for them to realize it's potentially the same individual or group doing the killings. One of them has to deduce that it has to be someone with the knowledge of human anatomy and skill to keep on killing them without leaving a clear indication of (to make a simplified example) how the bodies were interacting when they applied the killing force. I give it about fifty-fifty that holmes can eventually figure out they're being screwed with internally and not just from random bureaucratic hooplah either if this guy is such a demigod, which further narrows it down to people who could have picked up this knowledge, training, and skill within their organization.

It's like... Setting, L, Holmes, and demigod of murder are all at play here and bleck. Too many variables.

Need to get back to just the two...

Without actually watching Monster its really hard to understand why Johan does things, and how he accomplishes them.

Trying to catch Johan is like trying to catch a man who doesn't exist.

Just watch the show already. :p

Edit: No Idea who Chestertons Father Brown is.

[nothingclever]

To expand on Johan, I'd put him as having an even slicker tounge then Hannible.

He as described as having the inteligence and Charisma that was possed by Hitler during World War 2, and they do an excelent job at conveying it.

As described by Lunge, an interpol inspector, a suspect will always leave something behind at a scene, anyone who could do so would have to be a monster. Some kind of evidence, or feeling, something. However a scene Johan left behind had nothing. No evidence, no trail, no leads, not a thing.

You could combine the talents of all of those guys, and it wouldn't match the cruelty, intelligence, and persuasion possessed by Johan. Neither L nor Holmes could stand a chance against him.
Johan is just another nonsense L character. He does nothing or very little and magically succeeds at whatever he wants. Sure he is at least explained to be well educated and to have learned very fast as a child but his ability to make people kill themselves and leave crime scenes without a trace of evidence is never logically explained. It's never explained why he impresses and scares people so much and no real reason is given. He's supposed to be terrifying yet there's no explanation for him being so the same way there is no explanation for L's random numbers. Ooh he acts calm and ominous and barely says anything. Big deal. The character doesn't make sense.

It's like what if I wrote an illustrated story about a person that fights amazingly well but I never explain his ability to fight well. Every time he's just about to actually throw a punch or something I decide to leave out what happens and just show his opponent beaten up in the next panel. Or I have a million other characters say "Omg he's the best martial artist ever. I don't personally know anything about how tough he is but I can tell from his eyes he must be."

Is my character a great fighter? Not necessarily. I may have said he was a million times but I never actually showed any proof of it other than baseless claims by other people and showing people beaten up for an unknown reason. It's possible the character never actually fairly fought anyone. Maybe he just hired someone else as his secret bodyguard or something.

Or every time my character is depicted fighting someone his opponent could be some poor defenseless person. If my character beats up a million helpless people does that make him a great fighter? No. It doesn't matter how many times the narrator says he is. He hasn't proved it by actually defeating a formidable opponent.

Pretty much all Johan does is smile. How that accomplishes anything is never explained.

[Haven]

Soviet Russia is a very weird milieu for this. Why not just Britain? That's where both of them are from, after all.

Anyway, I was going to contribute, but I looked back over the thread and couldn't remember what I was going to say (besides "L's capoeira skills make him pretty capable in the violence department himself"). So I'll just say that L's theme song wins.

[Corncracker]

You hear a few of his conversations, though far from all of them. And others you hear a good deal about.
Through the PSycologists interviews of various victims, you learn he manipulated some people by playing to their Psycotic behaviors. He appeared to one man as an Alien, another as an understanding friend through letters, he's used blackmail, and even deciete when dealing with Wolfe's Organization.

You also hear from Roberto's mouth the reasons he joined with Johan. Even without actually seeing all of these events, we are given a good amount of information on them.


For events you do see, there is the Scene from shortly after the fall of Kinderheim 511, where he speaks with the boy hiding under the sink, who later becomes one of Johan's followers.

You also see him torment a young child while he is disguised as Nina.

There is also his talk with The Vampire of Bayrn in the Burning Library.

To say they just claim that he is such a manipulative and clever man without actually showing anything to prove it is showing you've missed out on a lot of things that happened in the series, or you're just not happy unless you get to witness the exact scene first hand.

True, you don't see all of the times he had done it, nor are all of them explained. But do you realize how much longer that would have drug out the show? It's already a whopping 75 episodes.

As for Evidence, what could you possibly find to connect to Johan? He has not Criminal Record, no Fingerprints, no DNA on record, no medical record, an eyewitness won't do any good if they can' hope to Identify the culprit, or predict where he is, on top of that Johan is rarely at the scene of most of his crimes, so any evidence found won't link to him. And from all of the Psyco analysis reports from the Psycologist, I forget his name, Tenma's Friend, it's easy enough to tell that he keeps his distance from the actual murderers to avoid a connection, the one he met as a child being the exception.

[Revanmal]

I think Holmes would be at a serious disadvantage. If the criminal leaves no trace of their presence at the crime scenes, then Holmes wont find too much evidence that will aid in catching the culprit. He may deduce something about their methods and finer minutiae from the victims themselves to form some kind of connection, but without physical evidence of who exactly the person who's doing it is, his deductions only go so far.

L on the other hand has already shown he can deal with a killer who leaves no evidence save the pattern of deaths, a la Kira, meaning he's got a palpable advantage over Holmes.

[druid91]

Sherlock Holmes would be largely useless outside of England or a choice few English colonies. his deductions seem to be based almost entirely on seeing something,
sawdust for example, and remembering that it is the same as the sawdust at that old creepy abandoned lumber mill.
Whereas L actually works all around the world as opposed to solely within British domain. Also L is shown to have Explained himself frequently.
He knew light was in the Kanto area because the tv program that light saw (and killed his proxy on), was only broadcast one district at a time.
He knew that he was in japan because Light , as a Japanese person knew more about, and thus killed, more Japanese criminals than foreign criminals.
He narrowed it down to light and a few others by seeing who the FBI agent that light killed for following him was supposed to be following.

[SmartAlec]

He may be a bit Anglocentric, as befis any British citizen, but there's been plenty of occasions when Holmes has spotted and identified something that came from overseas. A foreign type of tobacco, an American sawn-off shotgun, a deadly plant found overseas, and so on.

[druid91]

well then I apologize as far as Sherlock Holmes, I haven't read much that doesn't have him in either London or Brazil (I think, it was someplace tropical anyway). But my main point was that L isn't nearly as much of a slouch as he is being made out to be.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

Is this debate not over? Holmes, as he is presented by Arthur Conan Doyle (which IMO is what is important; the author can't just say someone is the best detective ever - the "show, don't tell" rule exists for a reason) is a much more capable detective than L, as he makes deductions based on hard evidence, as opposed to what L did, which was seemingly nothing more than random guessing.

Holmes' specific Victorian Britain-based knowledge does not count as a weakness either; had he been born at another time and in another country he would have the required knowledge for that instead. Hell, L only works worldwide because he's a modern-day detective; Holmes in this era might well do the same.

The only edge L has on Holmes is resources, but even then Holmes would be sure to deduce far more from a scene of a crime than L's various lackeys.

It depends on the nature of the crime who has the edge really, as L and Holmes have different methods and think in different ways. When L noticed the 2nd Kira in Death Note Holmes would probably have come to the conclusion that something had caused a change in the killer's targets, not a change in the killer himself. So the nature of our villain is really the only weay it's decided.

In any non-abstract tpe of situation Holmes would be more likely to win as he has evidence to work with in abundance, however if this is a Death Note user or something similarly supernatural I think L would have the lead.

[tregitsdown]

L loses because L's detective work is nonsense. He barely did any at all throughout the entire story. He isn't a real detective. He's a character the author decided to call a detective without really showing him doing any actual detective things.

What feats of crime solving can L boast of? A handful.
What feats can Holmes boast of? Numerous

Half of L's detective work is him stating a random percentage of Light being Kira or not. The other half is him second guessing himself over and over again and doing nothing but annoying other characters. "X thing Light does could be an indication that he is Kira because he just said something incriminating. On the other hand it could be proof he isn't Kira because he said something so obviously incriminating since he feels he has nothing to hide because he's just a normal person."

L has no social life or life experiences either. He spends most of his life locked up at a mysterious orphanage with a bunch of antisocial kids with issues while doing extremely complex logic puzzles and other nonsense. After leaving that place he stays inside a little room all day while he lets other people do all his talking for him. He can't even sit properly in his chair and he can't be bothered to wear shoes or comb his hair. Good game.

Sherlock Holmes is classy, sociable, well traveled, skilled in plenty of stuff, studies many things both common and obscure, etc.

What cases has L solved? None that we know of because the author never wrote about them. He didn't even catch Kira because he died and he was too caught up on the idea that he had to be 100% certain before taking out Light.

What cases has Sherlock Holmes solved? We've got several books of information.
The problem with this is that it mentions multiple times about his previous cases, specifically in The Los Angeles BB murder cases or L: Change the WorLd. L was dealing with very difficult circumstances in the Kira case, considering the fact that he was supposed to find one person who had the ability to kill people with a name and face while leaving no evidence. The fact he even managed to figure out it was Light is amazing within itself. Also, just because L has quirks does not lessen his skills as a detective. He clearly can solve cases, so what does the fact that he doesn't personally go to the crime scene matter? It displays multiple times his detective skills. The most prominent example though would undoubtedly be the Lind L. Taylor Gambit presented in chapter 2 of deathnote. Using this he managed to determine Kira: A, needed a face and name to kill, B, was in Japan, and C, was in the Kanto region. The reason why L operates the way he does is because if he didn't be would have died a long time ago. And it even proves to be the main protection against Kira, while Sherlock Holmes, having no such defences, would be killed as soon as he tried. While Sherlock Holmes goes up against criminals, L's main two enemy's are a supernatural killer who is also a genius capable of killing using only a name and face, and another genius who managed to baffle the entire Los Angeles police department. Those logic puzzles he does are perfect examples of his deductive skills. I have great respect for Sherlock Holmes, but disagree with your opinion on L.

[Ramza00]

Edit, didn't realize I was responding to a several year old post due to thread necromancy. I apologize.

[Sith_Happens]

*writes thread title in Death Note*

Maybe this time it'll stick.:smalltongue: