WoW:Varian Wrynn is Right

[Talkkno]

Source: http://www.wow.com/2009/04/26/varian-wrynn-is-right/

Thoughts, I personally since ever I got to as Horde to, Northrend, a lot of the Horde npc's have been acting like giant *****.

[Poison_Fish]

Can you answer that in the form of question?

wait, wait... the answer is: What is World of Warcraft?

[SmartAlec]

Bloody hell. Is this still going on? I remember writing stuff very similar to this article in posts during my crazy WoW days.

[SAMAS]

I knew it.

From the time the game was first announced, I knew that trying to drag it back to "Horde vs Alliance" was a bad idea.

[Optimystik]

The article summarized:

Thrall keeps the title "warchief" and they have the same logos as the old Horde, therefore they are still bloodthirsty savages.

Very, very poor article. No mention of harboring the Grimtotems, the Forsaken penchant for duplicity, or the Warsong's activities in Ashenvale. If I was looking to discredit Thrall's leadership, I'd start in places like that. Instead Daniel harps on some flags and other cosmetic trappings.

[sihnfahl]

The Forsaken penchant for duplicity
Which is something I was just waiting for. I knew that, eventually, Blizz would have Sylvanas' decision over Varimathras would bite her in the ...

Course, it just shows how poor Sylvanas and Thrall's decision making is.

Sylvanas believed she could cow a member of a race known for duplicity and subversion. And Thrall trusted Sylvanas to watch over Varimathras a little too much; he didn't have his own agents in place.

And that poor Tauren girl in the Undercity has been exposed to poisons and plagues HOW long now?

I mean, it's not like the RAS was making it hard for 'non-aligned mercenaries' (aka, players) to find out what they were up to.

[SurlySeraph]

The article summarized:

Thrall keeps the title "warchief" and they have the same logos as the old Horde, therefore they are still bloodthirsty savages.

Very, very poor article. No mention of harboring the Grimtotems, the Forsaken penchant for duplicity, or the Warsong's activities in Ashenvale. If I was looking to discredit Thrall's leadership, I'd start in places like that. Instead Daniel harps on some flags and other cosmetic trappings.

It does in the later pages. There's a link to the next page at what seems to be the end of the article.

And I can't believe I read that whole thing. I don't even play WoW. I understood about half of it.

[Winterwind]

I haven't ever played WoW (to make up for it, WC3 all the more), but to me, at least, the arguments made in the article actually sound highly sensible (and, as SurlySeraph mentions, the article actually goes way beyond just symbols and titles on the other two pages).

[Optimystik]

It does in the later pages. There's a link to the next page at what seems to be the end of the article.

And I can't believe I read that whole thing. I don't even play WoW. I understood about half of it.

*Wrathgate event spoiler alert*




All right, I admit I missed that link. And he did address my concerns on the later pages (though he took his time getting around to them.) But however justified Wrynn's distrust of the Horde may be, that is NOT what motivates him. Wrynn's motivation is nothing other than pure bigotry.

Let's assume everything in the article is 100% accurate. That means there are factions within the Horde (RAS, Warsong) that are running counter to the Warchief's desires. But the article is so caught up with commending Wrynn that it hasn't considered the consequences of Wrynn's "solution." All killing Thrall would do (and that is what Wrynn tried to do during the UC event) would be to inflame the Horde into war again, leaving Arthas free to mop up both sides as they rail at each other's throats yet again.

However, I will admit that the Horde is not on steady footing at this point. All the infighting and seething beneath the surface seem to me to be leading up to Warcraft 4.

[SmartAlec]

All killing Thrall would do (and that is what Wrynn tried to do during the UC event) would be to inflame the Horde into war again

It might help to bear in mind that The New Horde is kept more-or-less stable by the co-operation between the leaders of its' three founder races; Thrall, Cairne and Vol'jin. Thrall is not immortal, Cairne and Vol'jin are old, and both Thrall and Cairne have enemies within their own faction. The Horde declaring war upon the Alliance again could well be be inevitable, and could be soon; can you imagine the Horde under the leadership of folk like Magatha Grimtotem and Grommash Hellscream?

It might concievably be better from where Varien is standing to take the fight to the Horde and engage them on neutral ground, when the Alliance is already on a war footing, rather than focusing on the Scourge and have the Horde nibble away at the Alliance (as they've been doing), or have the war begin when Northrend is pacified and the Horde's armies are free to encroach on Alliance territory.

When you get down to it, what are his other options?

[mangosta71]

If you look down at the bottom of the third page, there's a response from one of the horde apologists. The author of the second article points out that, if Varian really wants to exterminate the horde, he should put them on the front lines, but if he's as honorable as the first article claims, I think he would prefer to die than work with someone he fully expects to stab him in the back (as has happened many times already, as enumerated). Frankly, I find the first more convincing.

I can't help but notice that the horde is also the aggressor in each of the original battlegrounds. WSG is discussed in the aforementioned articles. AB - Forsaken assaulting a human outpost. Horde apologists try to claim that AV is a dwarven invasion of the Frostwolf ancestral home, but Alterac was dwarven land for thousands of years. The orcs have been there less than a generation. A small archaeological expedition set up camp and a band of orcs ran down and started slaughtering everyone, leading to the erection of defensive fortifications. The horde has NEVER attempted any sort of diplomatic solution to conflict. Meanwhile the alliance has spearheaded every "joint effort" in WoW history. The Argent Dawn was originally a human institution (grew out of the Silver Hand iirc). Everything that happened in Burning Crusade was led by the draenei. The Argent Crusade grew from the Argent Dawn. The Kirin Tor was the order of human magic practitioners. The assault on Ulduar is being led by the Explorers' League - dwarves. What exactly has the horde done?

[Optimystik]

When you get down to it, what are his other options?

Arrange a cease-fire with Thrall through Jaina as she has been suggesting since Wrynn returned. Thrall will listen to her (they were at Hyjal together, not counting any behind-the-scenes developments between the two) and she can handle herself well enough to go to Horde lands alone if need be. Once the Scourge are dealt with and the Legion is confined to Outland, then he can turn his attention to Alterac and Arathi. It was fine for him to be a hothead when he was a gladiator, but he can't keep that same mindset now that he's a king.

But in the end, he's going to stay just as bellicose as he's always been. Like I said, it's likely a setup for Warcraft 4, which will parlay into WoW 2. :smalltongue:


What exactly has the horde done?

Both Hakkar (ZG) and Zul'jin (ZA) were primarily pacified by Horde forces. If it weren't for Tauren, Sargeras would have successfully entered Zin-Azshari during the WotA. If it weren't for the Horde, Onyxia would have still had all of Stormwind under her thumb. Before Draenei shamans joined the Alliance, The Earthen Ring was keeping the world from falling apart. And I'm not even going to go into how bad Outland would have been had ALL of the Blood Elves followed Kael instead of joining the Horde. I could go on.

[SmartAlec]

Arrange a cease-fire with Thrall through Jaina as she has been suggesting since Wrynn returned.

To do so would suggest that the men at the Wrathgate meant nothing; that they were completely expendable. Bolvar Fordragon was a national hero to the citizens of Stormwind and a recognised figure among the other Alliance races - if Wrynn wanted to lose the support of the people of Stormwind and finish off the battered morale of Alliance military, being seen to arrange a cease-fire with the Horde - essentially, backing down and letting the Horde 'off the hook' - would be the way to do it. With the Alliance at war with the Scourge, I daresay he simply can't risk that.

Therefore, I would venture to suggest that trying to broker peace with the Horde is not an option.


Both Hakkar (ZG) and Zul'jin (ZA) were primarily pacified by Horde forces. If it weren't for Tauren, Sargeras would have successfully entered Zin-Azshari during the WotA. If it weren't for the Horde, Onyxia would have still had all of Stormwind under her thumb. Before Draenei shamans joined the Alliance, The Earthen Ring was keeping the world from falling apart.

How many of these were actually Thrall's Horde? My memory may be hazy, but as far as I know, Hakkar's defeat was engineered by the Zandalar tribe of Trolls, who are not part of the Horde, and Marshal Windsor of Stormwind was responsible for revealing Onyxia's identity in Stormwind. The Earthen Ring predates the Horde by over a century, and seeing as any Tauren that participated in the War of the Ancients are long-dead, it's difficult to see how you could attribute their actions to the Horde.

By contrast, many of the organisations mentioned - the Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, the new Kirin Tor, the Explorer's League - were born from Alliance institutions. The Cenarion Circle do predate the Alliance, but that's it.

[mangosta71]

To do so would suggest that the men at the Wrathgate meant nothing; that they were completely expendable. Bolvar Fordragon was a national hero to the citizens of Stormwind and a recognised figure among the other Alliance races - if Wrynn wanted to lose the support of the people of Stormwind and finish off the battered morale of Alliance military, being seen to arrange a cease-fire with the Horde - essentially, backing down and letting the Horde 'off the hook' - would be the way to do it. With the Alliance at war with the Scourge, I daresay he simply can't risk that.

Aside from that, even assuming that Thrall himself is honorable, the forces under his command have proven time and time again that they are not. The soldiers of the horde brag about attacking an alliance force from behind while they were engaged with the Scourge, and even if Thrall didn't countenance the action, he has made no move to discipline the perpetrators. In short, he may not give the order to attack, and may not participate, but he won't stand up to his commanders and tell them to back down.


How many of these were actually Thrall's Horde? My memory may be hazy, but as far as I know, Hakkar's defeat was engineered by the Zandalar tribe of Trolls, who are not part of the Horde, and Marshal Windsor of Stormwind was responsible for revealing Onyxia's identity in Stormwind. The Earthen Ring predates the Horde by over a century, and seeing as any Tauren that participated in the War of the Ancients are long-dead, it's difficult to see how you could attribute their actions to the Horde.

By contrast, many of the organisations mentioned - the Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, the new Kirin Tor, the Explorer's League - were born from Alliance institutions. The Cenarion Circle do predate the Alliance, but that's it.

Also, the CC/CE? Originally Night Elf institutions.

[Optimystik]

To do so would suggest that the men at the Wrathgate meant nothing; that they were completely expendable. Bolvar Fordragon was a national hero to the citizens of Stormwind and a recognised figure among the other Alliance races - if Wrynn wanted to lose the support of the people of Stormwind and finish off the battered morale of Alliance military, being seen to arrange a cease-fire with the Horde - essentially, backing down and letting the Horde 'off the hook' - would be the way to do it. With the Alliance at war with the Scourge, I daresay he simply can't risk that.

Even assuming that morale would take a hit from such a policy (which isn't a sure thing), that doesn't mean the solution is to declare a war on a THIRD front. Morale would be really great when they're being squeezed like a vise on both sides.


Therefore, I would venture to suggest that trying to broker peace with the Horde is not an option.

A cease-fire is not peace. A cease-fire is exactly what it sounds like; the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They'll have plenty of time to fight (and indeed the Orcs would probably enjoy it) once the Scourge and Legion have been dealt with. Add to that whatever the heck is going on in the Emerald Dream, and the fact that Azshara is still alive under the Maelstrom somewhere, oh yeah and let's throw Sargeras in on top of all that, and you'll agree that Wrynn doesn't have time to be an angry child right now.



How many of these were actually Thrall's Horde? My memory may be hazy, but as far as I know, Hakkar's defeat was engineered by the Zandalar tribe of Trolls, who are not part of the Horde, and Marshal Windsor of Stormwind was responsible for revealing Onyxia's identity in Stormwind. The Earthen Ring predates the Horde by over a century, and seeing as any Tauren that participated in the War of the Ancients are long-dead, it's difficult to see how you could attribute their actions to the Horde.

The Zandalari approached the Darkspear first. The Horde were instrumental in exposing Onyxia; do their side of the quest chain. The Earthen Ring was made up exclusively of Horde races until BC for a reason; the Alliance races just didn't have the knowledge or the perspective to care about the elements. As for the Tauren, their actions in that war led directly to them learning druidism from Malfurion later at Hyjal.


By contrast, many of the organisations mentioned - the Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, the new Kirin Tor, the Explorer's League - were born from Alliance institutions. The Cenarion Circle do predate the Alliance, but that's it.

"Born from" does not mean "beholden to." Yes, humans started the original Kirin Tor, but if I recall correctly High Elves were their sponsors, and the Alliance was rather quick to turn its back on them. Yes, The Argent Dawn was started by the Silver Hand, but if it weren't for the Forsaken they would have been crushed like a walnut between the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade.

[SmartAlec]

Even assuming that morale would take a hit from such a policy (which isn't a sure thing), that doesn't mean the solution is to declare a war on a THIRD front.

Well, assuming that offering a cease-fire is off the table, what are Varian's other options?


A cease-fire is not peace. A cease-fire is exactly what it sounds like; the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This is the really important part. Here is what I think many people who think Varian is a bigot don't consider: what if the enemy of your enemy is not your friend? What if the enemy of your enemy has done and is doing as much harm to you as your enemy, and shows no sign of stopping? Thrall talks a good game, and he'd likely see the wisdom of a cease-fire, but would the Horde? Who can say? The Horde has proved that they can't be relied on. They do not necessarily do what Thrall says. The Alliance can't base a strategy on that, and they'd be idiots to. The way I see it, considering the Horde as hostile is the only way the Alliance can be in a position in which they know where they stand.

[Guancyto]

what if the enemy of your enemy is not your friend?

That isn't what a ceasefire means at all. All it would mean in this case would be "we have bigger problems than each other right now," which is 103% verifiable reality.

"As we are at war with Arthas, let's not litter Icecrown with more corpses than we have to" is not hard to justify to the masses. And although the Alliance has tended to be the one to set up the organizations, most of the major victories of those organizations have been joint efforts (because hey, Blizz isn't gonna make Alliance-only raids). Shattered Sun, Argent Dawn/Crusade, etc.

[SmartAlec]

That isn't what a ceasefire means at all. All it would mean in this case would be "we have bigger problems than each other right now," which is 103% verifiable reality.

It is. But would the Horde go along with it? The Alliance would be banking on Thrall's ability to keep the Horde in line - and bearing in mind there was already fighting between Horde and Alliance before the events of the Wrath Gate, that's not a sure thing by any means.

[Optimystik]

It is. But would the Horde go along with it? The Alliance would be banking on Thrall's ability to keep the Horde in line - and bearing in mind there was already fighting between Horde and Alliance before the events of the Wrath Gate, that's not a sure thing by any means.

Whether he can keep the whole Horde in line is irrelevant. Right now, he is the best person for that monumental task. Killing him WILL unite the Horde completely - in bloody rage.

If that were to happen, Arthas would win without lifting a finger.

[SmartAlec]

Whether he can keep the whole Horde in line is irrelevant. Right now, he is the best person for that monumental task. Killing him WILL unite the Horde completely - in bloody rage.

If that were to happen, Arthas would win without lifting a finger.

Why is that irrelevant? If he's the most fit for the task, and he still can't do it, the Alliance has to act with that in mind.

If the only other answer for the crisis is for the Alliance to let it lie, continue focusing on the Scourge and leave themselves open for further betrayals from the Horde, I think the Alliance did well to act in the Alliance's best interests.

Edit: I'm not sure if the Horde is so unified as to all come together seeking vengeance if Thrall had been killed. The Forsaken and the Blood Elves would be looking out for their own interests first, and there'd likely be something of a power struggle within the Kalimdor Horde - as Thrall doesn't seem to have any clear successor. Killing Thrall could potentially disintegrate the Horde, in fact.

[Cúchulainn]

When is it ever going to be a good time for the Alliance and Horde to fight? No way in hell they're both just going to 'wait' until every other major threat is taken care of. If things continue on like they are now, a spite stalemate, nothing is ever going to get done. Letting the Forsaken and the Blood Elves into the Horde was like spitting into the face of the Alliance. The Orcs OWE the Draenei, they basically wiped out their entire race, they only escaped successfully after fighting the Blood Elves for control of the Exodar. Then bam, Sylvanas feels bad and suddenly they're in? Where's the reparations for the slaughter? Where's the honour? Thrall and the Horde are entirely too desperate looking for allies.

It was always the Alliance that were going to deal with Arthas anyway, that was decided the moment he killed Menethil and Uther, the Horde should back the hell off and start preparing for the massacre they're going to suffer when Varian has time to catch up on every backstab suffered while he's been away. The only reason not to just declare open war is because the piles of Orc bodies will probably ensure victory for Arthas, we all know how willing Orcs are to be reanimated just to fight.

[Optimystik]

Why is that irrelevant? If he's the most fit for the task, and he still can't do it, the Alliance has to act with that in mind.

It's irrelevant because he is doing it. Maybe not perfectly, but he still has the majority of the Horde under control.


If the only other answer for the crisis is for the Alliance to let it lie, continue focusing on the Scourge and leave themselves open for further betrayals from the Horde, I think the Alliance did well to act in the Alliance's best interests.

Right now, the Alliance's best interests are to take care of the evil in front of them. A betrayal from the Horde is a possible danger; animosity from the Legion and Scourge is certainty, and insurgents for both are already infesting Alliance forces.


Edit: I'm not sure if the Horde is so unified as to all come together seeking vengeance if Thrall had been killed. The Forsaken and the Blood Elves would be looking out for their own interests first, and there'd likely be something of a power struggle within the Kalimdor Horde - as Thrall doesn't seem to have any clear successor. Killing Thrall could potentially disintegrate the Horde, in fact.

Even if the Blood Elves and Forsaken splinter off, that still leaves the Trolls, Tauren, and Orcs, all of whom are personally indebted to Thrall and would seek vengeance in his name.

[Guancyto]

When is it ever going to be a good time for the Alliance and Horde to fight?

Well, ideally, after Arthas has been turned into a fine lichy paste against some wall somewhere. Now you and I know that Blizzard will come up with something bigger and badder just so the high-level players will have something to do, but the Alliance and Horde don't.


It was always the Alliance that were going to deal with Arthas anyway

Well, see, there's the problem. You don't see it too well if you just play one faction (because there aren't any orcs in your raid), but most threats of that magnitude have been dealt with by combined operations. The Silithid, Illidan, Kel'thuzad. Most neutral factions in the game understand this in some way or another.

The Horde may be a bloodthirsty mass of nigh-unstoppable warriors, but they don't possess the ability to turn your greatest fighters against you, haven't thoroughly infiltrated your society and while not nice people by any stretch, are not dedicated to the destruction of all life or rebinding of it in unholy mind-thralldom. The Horde conquering the Alliance (an unlikely prospect for a number of reasons) is a much better fate even for the Alliance than the Scourge conquering any major faction.

The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, but they are pretty handy at kicking his ass and are mostly incapable of assuming his power (Horde beats Scourge, they get some phat lewts). If you ride them too hard, your enemy is capable of entirely assimilating theirs (Scourge beats and reanimates Horde, congratulations! You are ****ed.)

Genuine Horde-Alliance war is a lose-lose proposition for all participants at the current time. I see why it's being done, and I don't mind it as a story element. To suggest he's right, though, is to say, "everyone is screwed and although not the instigator, he's actively continuing the everyone-being-screwed but it's okay because he has his reasons."

[Narkis]

It's irrelevant because he is doing it. Maybe not perfectly, but he still has the majority of the Horde under control.

Really? That's not at all the impression one gets by the Horde's actions. And it seems that he's been losing even more control lately, after young Hellscream regained his spirit.


Right now, the Alliance's best interests are to take care of the evil in front of them. A betrayal from the Horde is a possible danger; animosity from the Legion and Scourge is certainty, and insurgents for both are already infesting Alliance forces.

It is not a possible danger. It is a certainty. Wraithgate was not the unfortunate action of a splinter faction. It was an attack that the RAS had been preparing for almost the past 80 levels worth of quests with Sylvanas' blessings. Putress mistake was not that he deployed Plague v2.0. It was that he did it for the wrong master.
But even if we ignore that, there are numerous instances where the Horde attacks for ****s and giggles. Heck, they even attacked the Alliance army while it was fighting the Scourge in Icecrown!


Even if the Blood Elves and Forsaken splinter off, that still leaves the Trolls, Tauren, and Orcs, all of whom are personally indebted to Thrall and would seek vengeance in his name.

True. But who would lead them? There's no heir that'd be as accepted (even grudgingly) as Thrall.

[Corvus]

The Orcs OWE the Draenei, they basically wiped out their entire race, they only escaped successfully after fighting the Blood Elves for control of the Exodar.

If anything the Draenei owe the Orcs. Two thirds of their race go over to the ultimate evil and the rest jump from planet to planet trying to stay one step ahead.

Then they land on a planet with a native species (Orcs), rename it after themselves with out asking the natives an then completely forgot to tell the Orcs that the ultimate evil is chasing them down, and oh, by the way, they are masters of deception so if anything odd should start happening (eg ancestor spirits start asking you do so unusual things) you may want to ignore it.

And lets not start with the elves repeatedly trying to blow the world up.

Lets face it - Varian is an exceedingly angsty hate-blinded poor knock-off of Thrall.

Thrall was born into slavery, forced to fight in gladiatorial fights for years and the only human that ever showed him any affection was brutally murdered and her head thrown at him. Then after escaping and trying to find a place for his people far away he was continually pursued and harassed and yet he still tried to make peace with the humans.

Varian though was kidnapped by a faction of his own making (The Defias) after refusing to pay them for the rebuilding of Stormwind. When he is washed up on shore with no memories, he is captured by a neutral faction - not the horde - and made to fight for a short period of time in a neutral run arena (one of his team mates is a blood elf, one of the horde). The horde admire him, and he isn't mistreated like Thrall was. When he escapes, he returns home to find non-Horde elements subverting his nation. From that he turns into a bitter, hate-filled creature that a lot of people think is under the influence of Arthas or even worse...

[Khanderas]

It is. But would the Horde go along with it? The Alliance would be banking on Thrall's ability to keep the Horde in line - and bearing in mind there was already fighting between Horde and Alliance before the events of the Wrath Gate, that's not a sure thing by any means.
You mention the Wrath gate incident like it was sponsored by the Horde aimed at the alliance.
Not only did the Horde and Alliance fight side by side in a direct assault against Arthas, the RAS primary goal was to kill undead and living alike, especially Arthas, who, it should be noted, was greatly affected by the poison thrown causing him to retreat where a defeat may very well be at risk (plot nonwithstanding). The horde did lose alot of men as well including the young Hellscream I think.

After the incident (atleast on the Horde side) the Alliance storms Undercity to deal with Varimathras only to find him already slain, the faction within the Horde who committed treason against the Horde itself had been crushed by a desicive strike from Thrall and Sylvanas. I hadly call that not doing anything about it.

[Talkkno]

Then explain why after the Battle of Undercity quest, the RAS members are still hard at work making their super plague right in the Undercity, indicating that Sylvanas still approves of the actions of the RAS otherwise they would have been phased out for the people that completed that quest, which not the case. All the while, Thrall has yet to restrain horde forces and make peace with the alliance on the battlefronts of Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch, and Alterec Valley where the Horde are clearly the aggressors.

Remember, as Grom said, it was ultimately the Orcs choice to embrace the Burning Legion, as even in Outland their are still orcs living there uncorrupted, the Mag'hr.

Yet Thrall continues to exalt Orgrim and Grom, a war criminals.

[loopy]

Then explain why after the Battle of Undercity quest, the RAS members are still hard at work making their super plague right in the Undercity, indicating that Sylvanas still approves of the actions of the RAS otherwise they would have been phased out for the people that completed that quest, which not the case. All the while, Thrall has yet to restrain horde forces and make peace with the alliance on the battlefronts of Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch, and Alterec Valley where the Horde are clearly the aggressors.

Remember, as Grom said, it was ultimately the Orcs choice to embrace the Burning Legion, as even in Outland their are still orcs living there uncorrupted, the Mag'hr.

Yet Thrall continues to exalt Orgrim and Grom, a war criminals.

Well yes, they were making the plague, but Sylvanas' intention was to make one that wiped out the Scourge. The RAS just twisted her intentions a bit.

And as to the "well it happened in her city so she must have known about it". Well, no. I've known cases where respected scientists were using their labs to create narcotics on the side. Sure the Lord Mayor doesn't know about them.

[Athaniar]

Both sides have their faults. Varian needs to restrain his rage and start negotiating with Thrall, and Thrall needs to work harder to keep the more unruly elements of the Horde under control (the Forsaken and Garrosh, especially). Neither the Alliance nor the Horde can defeat the Scourge alone, and even if that should succeed, the Burning Legion will own them all when they invade again. Unity is power.

So, in short, Varian Wrynn is not 100% right. And neither is Thrall.

[Leon]

The horde did lose alot of men as well including the young Hellscream I think.


It'd have been a blessing if it was Garrosh, but sadly it was Saurfang the Younger

[Blayze]

Well yes, they were making the plague, but Sylvanas' intention was to make one that wiped out the Scourge. The RAS just twisted her intentions a bit.

And as to the "well it happened in her city so she must have known about it". Well, no. I've known cases where respected scientists were using their labs to create narcotics on the side. Sure the Lord Mayor doesn't know about them.

We're talking about the same "cunning" Sylvanas who allowed a Dreadlord to stay in her home city and therefore influence her minions. As far as I'm concerned, she's either been retconned into an absolute idiot or she's playing on Thrall's sympathy to distance herself from the creation of the Wrathgate plague while still being able to reap the benefits of it.

After all, what happened as a result of the Wrathgate? Something of a purge of a collection of undesirables she wouldn't want in her faction at all, a show of the Horde's power, she gets in Thrall's good graces some more, the RAS -- that is, the members loyal to her -- will obviously have nabbed a bit of the superplague somehow and can work on replicating it.

Her position right now is a politician's dream.

[Revlid]

I find it interesting that, whenever anyone mentions such dastardly former-Horde characters as Putress, Grom, etc., they fail to mention such dastardly former-Alliance characters as Kael'Thas, Arthas, Illidan, Kel'Thuzad, etc.

The Horde's screw-ups have generally resulted in a mid-boss. The Alliance's screw-ups have been BBEGs.

Also, I think it's well past time for genuinely sympathetic/nice Forsaken character. A relatively powerful one who isn't down with the whole "Death to the Living" thing. Particularly since Sylvanas needs to put on her nice face for the rest of the Horde.

[Athaniar]

And when you consider Kael'thas, he only became evil because of Grand Marshal Garithos's actions. Alliance Grand Marshal, that is.

But when was Illidan ever part of the Alliance? He was imprisoned millennia before the Alliance even existed. Other than that, you're very much correct. Don't just blame the Horde.

[Revlid]

But when was Illidan ever part of the Alliance? He was imprisoned millennia before the Alliance even existed. Other than that, you're very much correct. Don't just blame the Horde.

Yeah, that was pretty much a rebuttal to those ebul Horde members that existed before the "new" Horde.

[mangosta71]

Thrall was born into slavery, forced to fight in gladiatorial fights for years and the only human that ever showed him any affection was brutally murdered and her head thrown at him. Then after escaping and trying to find a place for his people far away he was continually pursued and harassed and yet he still tried to make peace with the humans.

Varian though was kidnapped by a faction of his own making (The Defias) after refusing to pay them for the rebuilding of Stormwind. When he is washed up on shore with no memories, he is captured by a neutral faction - not the horde - and made to fight for a short period of time in a neutral run arena (one of his team mates is a blood elf, one of the horde). The horde admire him, and he isn't mistreated like Thrall was. When he escapes, he returns home to find non-Horde elements subverting his nation. From that he turns into a bitter, hate-filled creature that a lot of people think is under the influence of Arthas or even worse...

Tell me again, which of the two was forced to fight in deathmatches? Which of the two had a slavemaster that is still currently a high-ranking, honored official in the opposite's faction? Was the other's slavemaster not caught and executed for his crimes?

You're blaming the Defias travesty on Varian as if he was in a position to stop it. At the time, he would have been a boy, or at most a very young man. His father was still king. Varian, as crown prince, had no power of any sort other than name recognition. He had no ability to alter the policies being enacted.


Well yes, they were making the plague, but Sylvanas' intention was to make one that wiped out the Scourge. The RAS just twisted her intentions a bit.

Read the new Arthas novel. Sylvanas knew exactly what the plague did. And she approved. Her agenda has always been the extermination of the Scourge, the Alliance, and even the other Horde races.

[Jibar]

But when was Illidan ever part of the Alliance? He was imprisoned millennia before the Alliance even existed. Other than that, you're very much correct. Don't just blame the Horde.

Well Tyrande, currently a leader of the Alliance was the one who freed him from this millennia of imprisonment.
And Malfurion was the one who would later let him leave to Outland where he would establish a base of power that would further ruin the Orc's homeland and lead to the Burning Legion getting their chance at directly invading Azeroth again.

Also, I really, really hate this debate because from what I've seen a lot of the really dumbass war hungry Horde were only introduced at the same time as Varian to make him seem right.
Yeah, there were moral debates before but it always eventually came down to the Horde are just trying to survive but doing it wrong, the Alliance won't give them a fair chance and have their own demons anyway and the Forsaken are up to bad stuff but as long as they hate the Scourge as much as they do both sides can overlook it until Arthas is taken down
Then Varian comes along, Wrathgate happens, and all of a sudden people are creating this huge issue out of what is essentially a writer's asspull to create some friction between the Horde and Alliance that was already there but in the background. So many quests in shared territories were about screwing with the other faction, but apparently for people to have issues you've got to throw something as obvious as an anti-Thrall at us, while calling him such.
It's a really stupid debate created for really stupid reasons and I'm really sick of it. :smallannoyed:

[Optimystik]

Really? That's not at all the impression one gets by the Horde's actions. And it seems that he's been losing even more control lately, after young Hellscream regained his spirit.

I already admitted his control of the Horde isn't perfect. But no single person in the Horde can do any better.

Having them exist as an organization, however loose, is beneficial to the Alliance. Look at Hellfire Peninsula for instance - Honor Hold would have been overrun in no time without Thrallmar nearby forcing the Fel Horde to divide their forces and Infernals.



It is not a possible danger. It is a certainty. Wraithgate was not the unfortunate action of a splinter faction. It was an attack that the RAS had been preparing for almost the past 80 levels worth of quests with Sylvanas' blessings. Putress mistake was not that he deployed Plague v2.0. It was that he did it for the wrong master.
But even if we ignore that, there are numerous instances where the Horde attacks for ****s and giggles. Heck, they even attacked the Alliance army while it was fighting the Scourge in Icecrown!

An EVENTUAL certainty. The Legion and Scourge are attacking NOW. The Emerald Dream is getting poisoned NOW.

I'm not saying Varian should kiss and make up, but he has bigger fish to fry right now. The Alliance can't handle those threats alone, no matter what Varian thinks.


True. But who would lead them? There's no heir that'd be as accepted (even grudgingly) as Thrall.

Cairne could easily command the three remaining factions. But only Thrall can command the respect, if not the unswerving obedience of all five, and especially the Knights of the Ebon Blade.

[Tengu_temp]

Also, I really, really hate this debate because from what I've seen a lot of the really dumbass war hungry Horde were only introduced at the same time as Varian to make him seem right.

Not really. The Horde in WoW was always a bunch of blood-crazed warmongers led by a naive, hypocritical idealist, and a few people who actually believe in his ideals.

I like Varian. He has his faults, but he's better than Jaina "Mary Sue To The Max" Proudmoore.

[Optimystik]

I like Varian. He has his faults, but he's better than Jaina "Mary Sue To The Max" Proudmoore.

She might be universally liked (almost unrealistically so) but her character is a very necessary one to the mythos. There has to be one character that can serve as a go-between, otherwise events like Wrathgate would be impossible to even orchestrate.

[Tengu_temp]

It wouldn't hurt if that go-between character wasn't always right, though.

[Guancyto]

She might be universally liked (almost unrealistically so)

You mean like she has a bunch of deserters openly subverting her authority right on her doorstep, and the solution ends up being to beat the crap out of them?

[Philistine]

It wouldn't hurt if that go-between character wasn't always right, though.

How is she always right? Or has she given up on the idea of negotiating with Thrall, recognizing that it is at best an exercise in futility?

[Jibar]

Jaina would totally be a Mary Sue if anybody actually listened to her. Right now she's kinda the Cassandra of Warcraft. She's totally right all the time but everybody thinks she's crazy.

[Optimystik]

You mean like she has a bunch of deserters openly subverting her authority right on her doorstep, and the solution ends up being to beat the crap out of them?

No, I mean like the leaders of 3 warring factions are in love with her, while she advises the leader of the 4th. It's definitely a Sue-ism, as much as I dislike admitting it.

Also, the so-called "Deserters" had their master plan sabotaged by joke flyers. (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=11133) Serious threat, that.

[Narkis]

I already admitted his control of the Horde isn't perfect. But no single person in the Horde can do any better.

Having them exist as an organization, however loose, is beneficial to the Alliance. Look at Hellfire Peninsula for instance - Honor Hold would have been overrun in no time without Thrallmar nearby forcing the Fel Horde to divide their forces and Infernals.

Yeah, you're very much correct. The Outland is a place where the Alliance and the Horde managed to set aside their differences and defeat a foe superior to either of them alone. And I loved it for it. I'd have much preferred it if Northrend was such a case as well. Unfortunately, it isn't.


An EVENTUAL certainty. The Legion and Scourge are attacking NOW. The Emerald Dream is getting poisoned NOW.

Yes, the Legion and the Scourge are far greater threats. Yes, the Horde and the Alliance should concentrate on them instead of what they're actually doing. But the Horde is not innocent for this. Their actions in Northrend made it an actual, tangible truth.


I'm not saying Varian should kiss and make up, but he has bigger fish to fry right now. The Alliance can't handle those threats alone, no matter what Varian thinks.

Agreed. But I'm not saying Varian is right for declaring war now. He's right in principle, but he's timing could use some work.


Cairne could easily command the three remaining factions. But only Thrall can command the respect, if not the unswerving obedience of all five, and especially the Knights of the Ebon Blade.

I won't argue about the Taurens, and probably the Trolls as well, but wouldn't a sizeable chunk of the Orcs object to his leadership? I think they'd want a greenskin for the Horde's Warchief.



Lets face it - Varian is an exceedingly angsty hate-blinded poor knock-off of Thrall.

I'm not seeing that in Varian. At all.


From that he turns into a bitter, hate-filled creature that a lot of people think is under the influence of Arthas or even worse...

And here I thought that what made him snap was the brutal murder of his beloved mentor by a Horde splinter group that developed the means to do so with the encouragement of a Horde leader. Must've been wrong.


Also, I think it's well past time for genuinely sympathetic/nice Forsaken character. A relatively powerful one who isn't down with the whole "Death to the Living" thing. Particularly since Sylvanas needs to put on her nice face for the rest of the Horde.

Amen to that. I thought the Forsaken were great back when they first appeared in Warcraft 3. Too bad they turned out to be bitter, hate-filled creatures.


And when you consider Kael'thas, he only became evil because of Grand Marshal Garithos's actions. Alliance Grand Marshal, that is.

I still have no idea how Garithos became a Grand Marshal. What a complete idiot.


Then Varian comes along, Wrathgate happens, and all of a sudden people are creating this huge issue out of what is essentially a writer's asspull to create some friction between the Horde and Alliance that was already there but in the background.

Hear, hear.

[Winterwind]

Sounds like a no-win scenario for Varian to me. Right now, people call him an idiot for not negotiating with a foe notorious for constant betrayal, and if he did negotiate and end up being betrayed by said foe, people would call him an idiot for giving his trust to such obviously untrustworthy enemies.
Ironically, I bet to a fair degree these would be the same people, too. :smallamused:

[sihnfahl]

I'd have much preferred it if Northrend was such a case as well. Unfortunately, it isn't.
Of course, the personages involved now weren't active or still gathering their forces. Remember, TBC ended with the Sunwell's closing. It was only after that little setback that Varimathras went to Plan C.


But the Horde is not innocent for this. Their actions in Northrend made it an actual, tangible truth.
It's not just Wrath...


Agreed. But I'm not saying Varian is right for declaring war now. He's right in principle, but he's timing could use some work.
Well, his more ... forceful, decisive side is in control. The gauntlet was thrown...


I won't argue about the Taurens, and probably the Trolls as well, but wouldn't a sizeable chunk of the Orcs object to his leadership? I think they'd want a greenskin for the Horde's Warchief.
Cairne isn't long for leadership, and his son's not as ... uniting. And it'd be hard for the Orcs to rally behind Magatha, who's pretty much considering genocide against all sentient races on Kalimdor...


I still have no idea how Garithos became a Grand Marshal. What a complete idiot.
He was a pretty good leader back under Terenas. While it wasn't any secret he didn't like non-humans, his loyalty and obligation to his King kept him in check. Still wasn't popular amongst the non-human troops.

When Arthas killed Terenas, Garithos took the troops that would follow him and called himself 'Grand Marshal'. It wasn't really a title he earned; it was just that he had the forces and no superior to 'correct' him.

Institutional momentum of 'follow the highest rank' had Kael under Garithos.

[Optimystik]

Yeah, you're very much correct. The Outland is a place where the Alliance and the Horde managed to set aside their differences and defeat a foe superior to either of them alone. And I loved it for it. I'd have much preferred it if Northrend was such a case as well. Unfortunately, it isn't.

You're forgetting that this is Blizzard's typical MO. The stages are:

1) Get to endgame. Factions are at each others throats.
2) Release a boss in a World-PvP zone to escalate the conflict.
3) A few patches in, release a "big lore boss" that requires both sides come together.
4) Release expansion.
5) Go to 1.

Pre-BC, we saw this with the original set of raids. The AQ patch came out, and with it C'thun; Horde and Alliance rushed off to Silithus together to take him on and fight over dust. Later, Naxx was released, and Horde and Alliance had to work together to grind AD rep. The war was set aside for the greater good.

Cue the Dark Portal. We run through together... and bam, we're at each other's throats again. This time there's a second dimension to the conflict, via the Scryers and Aldor. So we end up at each others throats again. Later, Sunwell is released, and Horde and Alliance had to work together to grind SSO rep. The war was set aside for the greater good.

Now, we're in Northrend. Surprise surprise, we're at each other's throats. But guess which patch is around the corner...'

tl;dr: Northrend will end up just like Outland and Azeroth did if you wait long enough.