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Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 03:30 PM
Draco-Fae
Racial Traits:
• +9 Dex, +9 Cha, -7 Con, 1 Str (always)
• Fine: as a fine creature a Draco-Fae gets a +8 bonus to AC and Attack rolls, a -16 modifier to grapple checks, and a hide bonus of +16, also he must be in the same square as another creature to physically attack it, and can only carry 1/4 of the weight that a medium character can carry.
• Draco-Fae base land speed is 5 ft., and has a fly speed of 40ft., which cannot be utilized while carrying a medium or heavy load. (note: as they are so small they could potentially ride on another characters shoulder if the need arises)
• Fey Touch: Instead of having an unarmed attack, a Draco-Fae has a melee touch attack that deals 1d6 damage.
• Hide Anywhere: As a free action a Draco-Fae can make a hide check, even if he is within the sight range of a creature, provided that that creature wasn’t already actively searching for him, and/or has not been alerted to his presence.
• The Draco-Fae has low-light vision.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Any.
• Favoured Class: Any Spontaneous Spellcaster


For apearance, think a tiny dragonborn with wings

DracoDei
2009-05-31, 03:38 PM
Uber Sorcerer... shoulder mounted, magic missile launcher... build a minature tower on top of some-ones helmet out of metal so they get improved cover... Needs a large LA.


I short, the answer to your question is "Yes".

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 03:43 PM
how big of LA?

TSED
2009-05-31, 03:55 PM
If you're willing to make adjustments (dropping the cha would help a ton) probably not too too much.

As it is now, though, I'd estimate a +6 or more.

And the +odd numbers? That's a big no no.

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 04:01 PM
how much should i drop the charisma, and is their anything else that it needs to lose some of that giant LA? (note that the dex mod shouldn't drop, it makes the end result within the range for fine creatures in the monster manual almost perfectly)

tribble
2009-05-31, 04:13 PM
Well, isnt the rule for this sort of thing something like, "if you have to ask, the answer is yes."?

Starscream
2009-05-31, 04:21 PM
Yeah, this thing's only weakness is that it is small and puny. That means absolutely nothing to casters, especially ones that would benefit from such a big charisma bonus. And between the small size and Dex bonus it will have massive AC. Only downside is a bad fort save.

Edit:
And is there any particular reason the bonuses/penalties are all odd numbers? Aren't they usually all even?

JackTheTripper
2009-05-31, 04:26 PM
There comes a point, I feel, where level adjustments don't help, because the stats of a being are so slanted towards certain character choices that a level adjustment would pretty much force players to go that route, and a small level adjustment would allow abuse.

This is one such point. My suggestion is to make this an NPC-only race with a CR bonus... Or if you want to keep it for a PC, make it Tiny, and reduce the ability score bonuses/penalties by at least 4. (What's up with the 'always 1' Str?)
Also, it's best if modifiers are even, not odd. IMHO.

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 05:17 PM
the bonuses/ penalties are uneven, because i didn't notice before that they were suposed to be even, and because they made sense within the monster manual's idea of the physical ability scores for fine creatures (pg. 296), also the always 1 strength thing is adressed in the same table, probably because they are so small

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-31, 05:20 PM
You are aware that size "fine" means that this race is about the size of...say...your car key? If not smaller. It just seems really odd to me that a sentient, humanoid being would be that tiny...especially one that is part dragon.

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 05:29 PM
The Draco-Fae, is only named as such, becaus of its draconic apearence, and wings, not based on the fact that it is descended from dragons, also, imagine, if a male gold dragon was to take the form of a male grig, then mate with another grig, the result would be a tiny half dragon grig, because when a half dragon is made, the result is always the same size as a the base creature, NOT the dragon.

Cedrass
2009-05-31, 05:35 PM
You are aware that size "fine" means that this race is about the size of...say...your car key? If not smaller. It just seems really odd to me that a sentient, humanoid being would be that tiny...especially one that is part dragon.

Yeah well, what can really be defined "odd" in a D&D setting really?

That being said, it's incredebly powerful. Lower the stats or give them a lot more disadvantages to make up for the incredible boosts.

You have to think about what Fine size affects with your players. Yes, they can't lift as much, and they'll get pretty much destroyed by any combat maneuver (Grapple, Bul Rush, etc), but they get awesome AC boosts and attack boosts too. Think about this when giving them some weaknesses.

On a side note, I know most Fine creatures in the MM have really little Str, put you can't just say a race has a fixed Str score. There isn't a single race that does that in any D&D books, and you shouldn't either, to stay consistent with official D&D content. Giving them a -10 Str modifier is something you can do however.

Gorgondantess
2009-05-31, 05:48 PM
This is not a PC race.
It is uber insanely powerful sorceror, to the point of cheesiness, and sucks at anything else. But if you give it LA, it's a good sorceror, and is absolutely terrible at anything else. Talk about epic pigeonholing.
I'd ban it without a thought in my games.

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-31, 06:16 PM
This is not a PC race.
It is uber insanely powerful sorceror, to the point of cheesiness, and sucks at anything else. But if you give it LA, it's a good sorceror, and is absolutely terrible at anything else. Talk about epic pigeonholing.
I'd ban it without a thought in my games.

Seconded, for the most part.

First of all, I MIGHT allow it... but you'd better hope to god you NEVER get hit by ANYTHING, EVER, because with a Con penalty like that, you'd be extraordinarily lucky to ever have more than 1 HP per level.

Second, odd ability modifiers = no. No, no, NO. Do not do that. With the way that works, they only affect characters half the time. Bad idea. The "1 Str (always)" is also BS. Also, thier carrying capacity is way too high. It should be something like 1/16th the capacity of a medium-sized character.

Third, it would have a godawful LA. Assuming the stat mods were changed to +10 Dex, +10 Cha, -8 Con, and just for the hell of it let's say -12 Str... Now on top of that, thier size and hiding ability (essentially nonmagical invisibilty, so it can't be dispelled, ho convenient...) make them extarordinarily hard to so much as SEE, much less hit. I'd call it a +6 at least, probably closer to +7, maybe even +8. Have fun with the powers of a 1st level character while everyone else in the group is level 9.

Ninetail
2009-05-31, 06:20 PM
Draco-Fae
Racial Traits:
• +9 Dex, +9 Cha, -7 Con, 1 Str (always)


Ability modifiers should be even numbers. Odd numbers are prone to min-maxing abuses during point-buy chargen. "1 Str (always)" is unprecedented in 3e; this should be a modifier too. (Otherwise it would also lead to abuses -- might as well dump an 8 in there, and use your points elsewhere, because it's going to be 1 anyway.)

A more normal set of modifiers would be +8 Dex, +8 Cha, -6 Con, -10 Str. This would force a buy of at least 11 Str before the racial penalty is applied, though, because the stat has to end up at least 1. You could also go -8 Con/-8 Str.

Technically these are balanced modifiers, but because the numbers are so big and favor certain classes to such an extent, you're still looking at an LA.



• Fine: as a fine creature a Draco-Fae gets a +8 bonus to AC and Attack rolls, a -16 modifier to grapple checks, and a hide bonus of +16, also he must be in the same square as another creature to physically attack it, and can only carry 1/4 of the weight that a medium character can carry.


This really tips the scale toward caster classes, and especially the sorcerer.



• Draco-Fae base land speed is 5 ft., and has a fly speed of 40ft., which cannot be utilized while carrying a medium or heavy load. (note: as they are so small they could potentially ride on another characters shoulder if the need arises)


Flight is worthy of an LA in and of itself. At least +2 just for that ability.



• Fey Touch: Instead of having an unarmed attack, a Draco-Fae has a melee touch attack that deals 1d6 damage.


That negates one of the penalties of a low Strength, but it doesn't matter, as these critters will never be delivering melee attacks anyway. They'll be out of reach blasting enemies with spells.



• Hide Anywhere: As a free action a Draco-Fae can make a hide check, even if he is within the sight range of a creature, provided that that creature wasn’t already actively searching for him, and/or has not been alerted to his presence.


...And they can do the blasting by surprise, even if they're flying right out in plain view. That'll bump up the LA again.



• The Draco-Fae has low-light vision.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Any.


Extra free language. Not really a big deal compared to the rest of the stuff they get.



• Favoured Class: Any Spontaneous Spellcaster


Multiple favored classes is a bonus. Not that they'll ever multiclass anyway, because that's bad for casters.

These things are hideously powerful sorcerers, by design. I'd call it at least a +4 LA, and that's probably overly-generous considering you're looking at, at level 1, a flying Cha 26 sorcerer with an AC bonus of +12 just from race alone.

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 06:41 PM
Ok, Ok stop the debates I was just looking for a simple yes or no answer, and possibly how much LA it will need to justify it (would be great in a game where you come in as an epic level sorcerer)

Mando Knight
2009-05-31, 06:47 PM
These things are hideously powerful sorcerers, by design. I'd call it at least a +4 LA, and that's probably overly-generous considering you're looking at, at level 1, a flying Cha 26 sorcerer with an AC bonus of +12 just from race alone.

'Course, then you remember that Leadership is based on Charisma... :smallamused:

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 07:09 PM
ok new question... of all you people who are denouncing this race as too powerfull, if you were a PLAYER, NOT A DM, would you want to play a sorcerer of this class?

Aergoth
2009-05-31, 07:15 PM
The questions is would you not?
I certainly would. This is built towards a plane leveling sorcerer.

Get a couple meatshields (followers from Leadership would do).
Hide at the first sign of trouble.
Drop a nice AoE spell into the middle of them (or try to murder the strongest).

A few choice feats this could be downright world-breaking. It's not Pun-Pun, but it's not good.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-31, 07:29 PM
ok new question... of all you people who are denouncing this race as too powerfull, if you were a PLAYER, NOT A DM, would you want to play a sorcerer of this class?

If the LA was low enough, then absolutely, provided it was a Hack'n'Slash campaign without much of a story. If the LA is to high, never. And I'd never consider it for anything other than a Warlock, Sorcerer, or possibly Beguiler.

Basically, what everyone has been saying is spot on. The race pigeonholes characters into caster roles, and either has a low enough LA for this to be possible (making the race incredibly overpowered), or has a high enough LA that it would be a terrible idea, making the race useless.

If your game is exceptionally overpowered, certainly. But for any game relying on any semblance of balance, this race needs a lot of work.

Dagren
2009-05-31, 07:43 PM
I remember reading a recommendation in the DMG or making new races. I think it said you shouldn't have PC races that were tiny or large, so I think you can see the problem here. Even ignoring the AC and hide skill bonuses, have you considered the impact on dungeoneering? Very little short of solid rock is going to be an obstacle for this race, doors and iron bars likely won't do.

JackTheTripper
2009-05-31, 07:55 PM
ok new question... of all you people who are denouncing this race as too powerfull, if you were a PLAYER, NOT A DM, would you want to play a sorcerer of this class?

Depends on the campaign. Hack n' slash? Fell yes, Warmage ownage away!

A more role-play oriented one? Fell NO, for more reasons than I care to list. It's... Just too much. A fine sorcerer/warmage perfect race with such an obscene AC/Cha boost? It'd kill the challenges.

Lord Orcus
2009-05-31, 08:05 PM
now think about REALLY over powering it's AC, If it took the reinforced wings and heavyweight wings feats from Races Of The Dragon, it would be able to fly around wearing full plate armour,and a heavy steel sheild delivering it's 1d6 touch attack at will, with a new AC of between 21 and 28, or more with magic armour and sheild. The only downside is the huge arcane spell failure.

Kornaki
2009-05-31, 08:16 PM
with a new AC of between 21 and 28

How is that better? At level one with 24 dexterity you're already sporting an AC of 25

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-31, 08:24 PM
ok new question... of all you people who are denouncing this race as too powerfull, if you were a PLAYER, NOT A DM, would you want to play a sorcerer of this class?

As a player? Of course not.

It's practically built of cheese. I mean, what's the story behind it? A pixie mating with a dragon? The concept, from an RP standpoint, seems rather ridiculous.

TSED
2009-05-31, 08:55 PM
Seriously, if you drop the +cha to +2 or +0, and drop the Hide Anywhere (you should NOT get 17th level ranger skills as racials) then this becomes a +1 or so LA race. Maybe drop the touch thing.

Siosilvar
2009-05-31, 09:29 PM
Seriously, if you drop the +cha to +2 or +0, and drop the Hide Anywhere (you should NOT get 17th level ranger skills as racials) then this becomes a +1 or so LA race. Maybe drop the touch thing.

And it'd need to be Tiny, at the absolute smallest, at least as a player race.

TSED
2009-05-31, 09:58 PM
And it'd need to be Tiny, at the absolute smallest, at least as a player race.

Ehhh, I played a Size Fine druid before. It was alright, but I purposely went out of my way to keep from breaking it.

Depends on your group, I guess.

Lord Orcus
2009-06-01, 04:21 PM
Ok then how about this? What kind of LA would you give this? Also, could you give me a strength penalty (and maybe a bonus to go along with it) to make this work?

Draco-Fae
Racial Traits:
•+10 Dex, -8 Con, -?Str
•Fine: as a fine creature a Draco-Fae gets a +8 bonus to AC and Attack rolls, a -16 modifier to grapple checks, and a hide bonus of +16, also he must be in the same square as another creature to physically attack it, and can only carry 1/8 of the weight that a medium character can carry.
•Draco-Fae base land speed is 5 ft., and has a fly speed of 40ft., which cannot be utilized while carrying a medium or heavy load. (note: as they are so small they could potentially ride on another characters shoulder if the need arises)
•The Draco-Fae has normal vision
•Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
•Favoured Class: Sorcerer

JackTheTripper
2009-06-01, 04:26 PM
Honestly, man, you gotta up the size. It's rather ridiculous, any other way.

DracoDei
2009-06-01, 04:28 PM
You mean a challenge... challenges CAN be good... but not always.

Lord Orcus
2009-06-01, 04:30 PM
yes, I know, but having a race that could be played that is smaller than the other characters daggers is the whole point of this race.

Shpadoinkle
2009-06-01, 05:35 PM
Carrying capacity still seems too high, but I can't find where in what book it describes what it should be. Fine is smaller than even Tiny (the average adult housecat is Tiny, a Fine creature would be the size of an average frog- slightly smaller than a man's fist.) I'm thinking it should be 1/32nd (Small is 1/4th, so Tiny would be like 1/16th, and so on). This is just how I figure it since I can't find this sort of thing anywhere in the books.

The STR penalty from being Fine is something like -16, I think. Either that or -12.

Flight is easily worth at LEAST a +2 LA. Since you didn't specify meaneuverability in either version, I'm assuming it's Average.

With the Con penalty (which is massive and pretty severe), that might be enough to bring the LA down by one. So... my rough estimate for the reworked version is about +5.

Also note I completely forgot the flying part in my earlier post, so the first version would have an LA of about +10, not +8.

They could be good thief-type rogues... if not for the huge STR penalty and extremely reduced carrying capacity. They couldn't even lift a key to steal it because of that (bear in mind keys in the middle ages weren't like modern car keys or house keys- they were a lot bigger and weighed at least a pound or two.) They can sneak attack well since they're so good at hiding and can easily take cover behind things medium sized characters can't (hide behind a beer mug and use Flyby Attack to SA someone with a teeny litle bow or something when they come in the room). They'd make good assassins.

So, they're pretty much restricted to caster classes or being assassin-type rogues.

Dagren
2009-06-01, 05:44 PM
You can use the monster filter (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php) to search the SRD for monsters of a given size. According to it, no fine creatures even exist. You have bats and toads in diminuative, and they seem to be the smallest. (I'm sure there are some fine creatures out there somewhere, but it seems they didn't make it to the SRD)

Lord Orcus
2009-06-01, 06:00 PM
Shpadoinkle: small carrying capacity is 3/4 NOT 1/4, and I assumed by that rule that for every size category that you go down you lose a 1/4 of the carrying capacity, which effictivly means that a fine creature can carry 0/4 the carrying capacity of a medium character, so I made it 1/8

Shpadoinkle
2009-06-01, 09:23 PM
Shpadoinkle: small carrying capacity is 3/4 NOT 1/4, and I assumed by that rule that for every size category that you go down you lose a 1/4 of the carrying capacity, which effictivly means that a fine creature can carry 0/4 the carrying capacity of a medium character, so I made it 1/8

Huh... Guess I misremembered, then.

Dagren
2009-06-01, 09:28 PM
Also with the size, (Which, really, seems to be the biggest problem by far), the example given for a fine creature in the PHB is a fly. Are you sure you really want them that small? From how you've described them, diminutive would seem to fit better. (Although this is still well outside the suggested size range for PC races)

Ninetail
2009-06-04, 06:49 PM
Ok then how about this? What kind of LA would you give this? Also, could you give me a strength penalty (and maybe a bonus to go along with it) to make this work?

Draco-Fae
Racial Traits:
•+10 Dex, -8 Con, -?Str
•Fine: as a fine creature a Draco-Fae gets a +8 bonus to AC and Attack rolls, a -16 modifier to grapple checks, and a hide bonus of +16, also he must be in the same square as another creature to physically attack it, and can only carry 1/8 of the weight that a medium character can carry.
•Draco-Fae base land speed is 5 ft., and has a fly speed of 40ft., which cannot be utilized while carrying a medium or heavy load. (note: as they are so small they could potentially ride on another characters shoulder if the need arises)
•The Draco-Fae has normal vision
•Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
•Favoured Class: Sorcerer

Probably -8 Str, as a Fine creature. I think the adjustment "should" be greater, but -8 is already pretty punitive for a PC race.

Lacking any bonuses to caster stats or the hide in plain sight ability, I'd call them LA +2, maybe +3. The AC bonus is still pretty extreme, but any hits that do land are going to be pretty deadly, with that CON. Flight is extremely good, but they can't carry anything to speak of, with that STR and their capacity cut due to size, so that does narrow down on the potential abuses.

Still, you've got a race that's basically really good at one thing. As an aesthetic matter I'd prefer my PC races to be a bit more flexible than that.