Balancing Paladins with the least amount of changes (3.5).

[Tempest Fennac]

I know there's a lot of homebrew Paladins which are more balanced then normal Paladins, but if you wanted to make Paladins more useful while not giving them as few new abilities as possinle, how would you go about doing it? I was thinking that changing Site Evil to x/Encounter rather then x/day would be a good place to start but I can't think of any other ideas.

[Grynning]

To make them better? I would recommend giving them bonus feats selected either from the fighter list or Divine feats at the dead levels, and expanding their casting table to look like the Bard's (for 5th and 6th level spells give them whatever is on the War, Strength, Protection and/or Good domains or something, maybe with a couple other appropriate spells thrown in). Oh, and get rid of that stupid Remove Disease ability and just add it to their frakkin spell list.

But that's just off the top of my head. There are tons of 3.5 paladin fixes out there, just do one search on these boards and you'll find several.

Edit: Fixed a typo and expanded on spellcasting idea.

[Doc Roc]

Very simply put, I suggest giving them a martial progression as per ToB.

[Grynning]

Very simply put, I suggest giving them a martial progression as per ToB.

They did that already. It was called the Crusader :smalltongue:

[Sinfire Titan]

Use OneWinged4ngel's fix (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) from the Gleemax boards. It and the Crusader are the considered by many the best fixes for the Paladin class. You may want to give it Duskblade casting though. That's the only change I would make to it.

[Doc Roc]

:: gently ::

Not at all what I meant. The crusader is entirely devoid of divine casting mechanics. The issue is that classically, through out the lifespan of 3.5\3.0, good has been relatively weak. A lot of core spells such as enervation have the evil descriptor. This makes life.... hard. Good should offer special things, opportunities to counterbalance the sacrifices caused by morality impinging on your actual mechanical capacities.

[Grynning]

Good should offer special things, opportunities to counterbalance the sacrifices caused by morality impinging on your actual mechanical capacities.

Do what now? You're suggesting that a good alignment impedes your mechanical capabilities?

Give me a moment to find an appropriate lolcat to respond with...

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/funny-pictures-this-kitten-is-confused.jpg

[Narmoth]

the best fix is to take one level of cleric, and then prestigeous paladin from UA
This gives you a paladin with spells as cleric, but with slower spell level progression that is still better than the original paladins spells
And you get all the paladin powers that are so defining for the class (smite, lay on hands and so on)

[JonestheSpy]

I know there's a lot of homebrew Paladins which are more balanced then normal Paladins, but if you wanted to make Paladins more useful while not giving them as few new abilities as possinle, how would you go about doing it? I was thinking that changing Site Evil to x/Encounter rather then x/day would be a good place to start but I can't think of any other ideas.

Seems like the problem wih paladins is you get all these great bennies the first three levels, then it just drops off and the spells don't make up for it.

My idea for a simple fix: Smite Evil 1 per day/3 levels instead of 5 and making it more powerful (maybe adding CHA bonus to damage as well as to hit bonus) and a couple extra fighter/divine feats at higher levels.

[Coidzor]

Use OneWinged4ngel's fix (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) from the Gleemax boards. It and the Crusader are the considered by many the best fixes for the Paladin class. You may want to give it Duskblade casting though. That's the only change I would make to it.

Thank you for the link.

[Talic]

For those who think that good is weaker than evil.

See BoED.

See BoVD.

See BoED stabbity BoVD with agonizing Ravages.

*Yay! It's a good action!*

See BoVD, tortured, wracked with agonizing suffering and pain, expire.

The end.

[Sinfire Titan]

For those who think that good is weaker than evil.

See BoED.

See BoVD.

See BoED stabbity BoVD with agonizing Ravages.

*Yay! It's a good action!*

See BoVD, tortured, wracked with agonizing suffering and pain, expire.

The end.

See Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils giving Evil more support than Good. You know, the whole awesomeness that is 5 free Vile feats with no other requirements except Evil alignment and wanting to blow up the world (or something similar, it varies from Elder to Elder).

And see Blessing of the Godless, which gives up to 6 feat EX healing that mimics a min-Heal spell. For 25gp/Mini-Heal, or day depending. Not as time-efficient as Lesser Vigor, but really damn useful.

And see Spaceballs.

[Killer Angel]

I know there's a lot of homebrew Paladins which are more balanced then normal Paladins, but if you wanted to make Paladins more useful while not giving them as few new abilities as possinle, how would you go about doing it? I was thinking that changing Site Evil to x/Encounter rather then x/day would be a good place to start but I can't think of any other ideas.

Call him O-Chul... :smallcool:

Now, seriously... try to double (at least) the number of smite evil / day, lower the level entry for his spells' progression (at least, change the "0", in "1"), and at 9th level, instead of the "Remove disease 2/week", give him a "Holy word 1/week").
These are possible changes, but I've not tested them "on the field".

[Doc Roc]

See Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils giving Evil more support than Good. You know, the whole awesomeness that is 5 free Vile feats with no other requirements except Evil alignment and wanting to blow up the world (or something similar, it varies from Elder to Elder).

And see Blessing of the Godless, which gives up to 6 feat EX healing that mimics a min-Heal spell. For 25gp/Mini-Heal, or day depending. Not as time-efficient as Lesser Vigor, but really damn useful.

And see Spaceballs.

Yes.

Also, BoED classes are.... I'm not particularly sold on them. The BoVD classes are generally stronger. Like, say, oh... I hear Ur-Priest is a decent class :: sardonic ::

[Sinfire Titan]

Yes.

Also, BoED classes are.... I'm not particularly sold on them. The BoVD classes are generally stronger. Like, say, oh... I hear Ur-Priest is a decent class :: sardonic ::

The Apostle of Peace and Fist of Raziel (sic) are the best classes in the BoED, but the BoVD gave us the Cancer Mage. That made the Hulking Hurler viable. The worst the BoED has given us is a headache over the Vows/Starmantle+Evasion.

[bosssmiley]

Always-on smite evil;
Mount advances as a druidic animal companion;
3/4 spell-casting (coz 4th level spells mean 0.00 at 16th level)

Quick-and-dirty paladin fix, done.

@V: :smallbiggrin:

[Talic]

Always-on smite evil;
Mount advances as a druidic animal companion;
3/4 spell-casting (coz 4th level spells mean 0.00 at 16th level)

Quick-and-dirty paladin fix, done.

There. :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding the spellcasting idea, would you give them exactly the same casting as Bards, Grynning? I know there's a lot of other fixes (I really liked the one Fax made a while back: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551&highlight=Paladin ).


3/4 casting would go to level 6, right?

[Myrmex]

A lot of core spells such as enervation have the evil descriptor.

Not many core arcane spells have alignment descriptors. Enervation certainly does not.

[AngelOmnipotent]

I awas actually discussing this last night on a car journey home and all of the above came up in some form or another. We also thought about Paladins getting access to Domains too - I don't see why they don't already.

[Doc Roc]

I have always wished the divine crusader was a little smidge better so I could recommend it at times like this.

[Tempest Fennac]

There are some Paladin Domains but they aren't that good: page 90 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf . I have another idea: combined with Smite Evil becoming an x/encounter attack, would boosting this variant while giving access to the Spirits earlier help? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a

EDIT: What does the Divine Crusader do?

[Narmoth]

3/4 spell-casting (coz 4th level spells mean 0.00 at 16th level)

Well, not exactly. There's some great 3rd and 4th lvl spells I use at ecl 16:
- Implacable Pursuer
- Sadism
- Masochism
- Cure spells

But yeah, the spells is what really lets you down at high lvls with the paladin

I really would like the paladin to be more of a LG fighter becoming a cleric than a gimped fighter becoming a useless gimp with a powerful horse

[potatocubed]

Just as a very quick fix suggestion:

Give paladins a bonus feat at every even-numbered level, like fighters. Essentially paladins gain all their divine powers in exchange for living by the Code. Break the Code, lose the divine powers (but keep your bonus feats).

(Actually... you could lose the paladin class altogether and make 'the Code' a feat or other character option that anyone LG can take in exchange for divine bennies. But that's not exactly a quick fix.)

[Satyr]

Mundane characters - including only partial spellcasters like Rangers and Paladins - are created as Gestalt characters, while spellcasters are created as single class characters.
For every five points of BAB, a character gains a +2 bonus to their Armor class - experienced warriors learn to anticipate and avoid incoming attacks.
Arcane spellcasters need free hands to cast their spells (or use the Still Magic metamgic or suffer ac -10% arcane failure rate for every occupied hand. Divine spellcasters must keep their holy sign in one of their hand to cast spells or it must otherwise occupy one of their magic item slots.

[Everyman]

My official fix (what I use in games I DM)...

1) Spellcasting works off Charisma, instead of Wisdom
2) Smite works on a recharge system. It starts off as 1/five rounds, and decreases by a round at every interval would a paladin would normally get an extra smite per day (eventually limited to once per round)
3) Fighter bonus feats, starting at 6th level and one additional feat every four levels after.
4) A paladin can choose to remove disease OR remove curse one per day (getting additional uses at the rate they used to get once per week).
5) A 20th level paladin overcomes damage reduction as if their weapons were good aligned and epic, as long as the creature being attacked is evil.

I find that the smite fix makes the class "worth" taking more than anything, but reducing MAD and giving the class some build options helps too.

[Devils_Advocate]

Just as a very quick fix suggestion:

Give paladins a bonus feat at every even-numbered level, like fighters. Essentially paladins gain all their divine powers in exchange for living by the Code. Break the Code, lose the divine powers (but keep your bonus feats).

(Actually... you could lose the paladin class altogether and make 'the Code' a feat or other character option that anyone LG can take in exchange for divine bennies. But that's not exactly a quick fix.)
That practically is losing the Paladin class altogether, and turning being a Paladin into a Fighter-only (Exalted?) feat. The only real difference is that Fighters and Paladins have different skill list. If you're going to go that far, I say just make paladinhood a feat.

(Arguably, this is how all divinely-granted and code-limited power should work. In which case it should be available in all forms, too, with e.g. serving the god of thieves giving you bonuses to stealth, sneak attacks, and such. Suck up to the god of magic if you want spells instead.

Alternately, for a more realistic world, you could leave "My abilities reflect the blessing of my deity" as pure flavor/belief.)

[Tempest Fennac]

I really like that fix, Tarkahn. :smallsmile: (I agree with the idea of making the Remove x 1/day due to how x/week seems pointless).

[Starscream]

I recently saw one in which the paladin slowly takes on the Saint template as he progresses. Haven't tried it, but it would make sense from a fluff perspective, and that template is pretty powerful.

[T.G. Oskar]

As someone mentioned earlier, the OW4 version of Paladin. It's pretty well balanced, although the Defensive specialization is a tad stronger than the basic specializations (either the basic Special Mount or the Charging Smite ACF from PHBII)

If you're trying to make some changes to the Paladin without changing it's core functions, Dragon magazine works nicely with that. If you're going to progress on spellcasting but leaving Paladin early, yet you wish your mount to be useful, Holy Mount is excellent for that (it's probably a feat they should have allowed at either BoED or Complete Champion; it's a shame they didn't)

Ironically, most Paladin builds completely ignore spellcasting, aside from the Cleric/Prestige Paladin or using the Fist of Raziel's 9/10 casting progression with Cleric. Paladin spellcasting is moderately useful, but you have to know when and where to use it. Mark of Doom from Spell Compendium is a nifty spell, and despite being weak (1d6 damage), it's enough to add some damage capacity to those enemies who like to damage a lot (Hydras, Dragons using full attack instead of breath-strafing, Druids turning into Fleshrakers, Girallons...you make the count) Sure, it's not pristine spellcasting, but choices are choices.

Now, if you're into full homebrewing and trying to make only simple changes instead of the whole she-bang, I'll go with most choices provided here:

--Smite Evil per encounter. Makes it closer to martial maneuvers, and it's an ability that should find more use. Paladins barely do any damage, so this is a huge increase in damage potential; making it an at-will ability only causes the invocation of "Ping Evil/Smite Evil" lines of thought, and that's a big no. Also, it makes for a nice growth feeling; you evolve from 1/encounter Smites and saving your best feature for when it's necessary, to 20th level near-all day smiting.

--Grant them two extra levels of spellcasting: 0-level spells at first level and 5th level spells at level 17th. That should make it officially half-spellcasting.

Bard progression is actually 2/3rds spellcasting, with roughly 30% divine and 70% arcane. Bards are basically 2/3rds Rogue (6 skill points/level, Rogue weapons, but no Rogue weapons), 2/3rds Cleric (Cleric BAB which is the same as Rogue, healing and loads of buffing spells, no Domains or divine abilities) and 2/3rds Sorcerer (spontaneous spellcasting progression at 2/3rds potency). The amount of abilities done should halve the efficiency of those abilities, so from the rough amount of 2 classes in one, you get a "single" class. Though, in practice, it feels more like half a class.

Paladins should not have that kind of spellcasting, although they could have a slight boost. Some effective spells from Cleric are well missed by the Paladin (namely Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and others I might not actually remember right now), but 6th level spells would make the Paladin quite a powerhouse. In essence, it would remove one of the big things that a Bard has (being more of a spellcaster than other classes aside from the true spellcasters) Duskblade works real well with the limited spellcasting they have (perhaps not as well, but really well), though they have a huge load of spells per day. Paladins should have less spells per day, but access to a larger number of spells to prepare. I'd even go with giving them full Cleric spellcasting progression plus the unique Paladin spells (Bless Weapon, Heal Mount, etc) But keep it Wis; if you're going with Charisma, you should make Paladins progress as Favored Souls instead.

So, in a nutshell: up to 5th level spells, from Cleric spells + unique Paladin spells. Cast from Wisdom. If casting from Charisma, then use Favored Soul progression instead (up to 5th level, of course)

--Bonus feats as Fighter. The Ranger has bonus feats (and the idea of Rangers had to be used on other classes, Samurai coming to mind), and even the Duskblade and Hexblade have bonus feats (one more limited than the other) So why Paladins are the only few who don't? Their spellcasting isn't as tough as a Ranger/Hexblade/Duskblade, and the latter three get some kind of bonus feats (regardless of whether they are true bonus feats or not) Tarkahn's feat progression is good, but I'd make it every three levels (that way, you get 5 bonus feats; effectively half the amount of Fighter bonus feats rounded down) List is limited to divine feats plus a few others (shield feats, mounted combat feats, perhaps Extra Turning). As a rule of thumb, look at Fighter bonus feats: if it's fit for a Paladin, then you should add a superscript P and say "a Paladin can take this feat as part of his bonus feats) You'd still get one extra use of Smite Evil and a bonus feat on a same level.

--As most everyone says, kill off Remove Disease. It would have been awesome...once per day and so on. Once per week seems is way too limited, and it barely finds any use.

--Enhance Lay on Hands. OW4's fix is one I really like.

While it seems a bit complicated, those are relatively simple changes (except the spellcasting change, of course) It wouldn't change the feel of a Paladin, but it would make it harder to replace for a Prestige Class progression.

[Narmoth]

I took my first lvl as cleric, but not the prestigeous paladin (since I went blackguard) and are now building on the cleric spell progression with various prcs. I expect to hit lvl 5 spells at lvl 20

[The White Knight]

Here's what I came up with:

- Remove all per day/per week increases from all class features. Once obtained, these abilities may be used once per day. This should result in an empty chart from level 7 onward.
- Remove ordinary Paladin spell progression.

+ Charging Smite (PHB2) becomes standard to the Smite Evil ability, and does not replace the Paladin's special mount.
+ The Paladin may now spend a Turn Attempt as a swift action to perform additional Smite Evil or Remove Disease abilities. The Paladin may also spend a Turn Attempt as a swift action to recharge her daily healing allotment for her Lay On Hands ability.
+ The Paladin uses the Bard's spells known/spells per day progression, drawing from the Cleric spell list. Spells are cast spontaneously, and the requisite ability score to cast spells is Charisma, which also determines spell DCs.
+ Starting at 5th level, and every third level thereafter, the Paladin receives a bonus feat. This feat may be drawn from the list of Fighter bonus feats, Divine feats, or Extra Turning.

Too much? Thoughts? Looks amazing on a class chart, haha.