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Frosty
2009-06-03, 01:56 AM
Assuming a standard wealth campaign, when is a VoP character worth it? I've always wanted to try playing one, but not being able to have items sort of blows.

Then I thought about classes that don't depend too much on gear, and thought: Why not Druid? But still, I'm tired of playing a straight caster, so I thought: Why not have fun with only partial druid progression?

My brainstorm right now suggests to me that I need a mix of Unarmed Swordsage, Deepwarden, Fist of the Forest, and Druid (wildshape into animal with high Con. My VoP bonuses to my stats should work even after Wildshape). With this, I add Wisdom and 2x Con to my AC, plus whatever natural armor my Wildshape comes with. If I can find a decent shape with a Con of like 30, I can pump my AC into the 40s before Natural Armor.

Now if I can only find an ability or feat to use my Con as my attack stat. Any ideas on where to go from here?

IM@work
2009-06-03, 02:01 AM
VoP is something I've been in close contact with lately: character wanted to do it with a wizard. Eww.
VoP is good in levels 1-10, okay 10-15, and beyond that it sucks as actual items dominate at this stage.
The lack of flight is a big deal.

Classes:
Monks and Druids are your best shot, with monk almost needing it to be any good. Try VoP monk along with Tattood monk prestige class as the tattoos give some needed spells like alter self and haste.

As for your other classes-have to look into unarmed swordsage, that's an interesting idea.

Frosty
2009-06-03, 02:34 AM
Eh...I think Monk with VoP sucks even more than normal. they *need* their magic items to survive.

tyckspoon
2009-06-03, 02:40 AM
Classes:
Monks and Druids are your best shot, with monk almost needing it to be any good.


Quoted for incorrectness. If you gave Monks the benefits of VoP in addition to normal items they'd be pretty good. Vow Of Poverty in itself is not a powerup for any class. Everybody does better with actual items provided the items are anywhere near the assumed power level. "Good" VoP classes are simply those whose class features are good enough to cover the Vow's flaws. Druid is such a class [you could get away with building a Druid who spent all his normal cash on buffing his Animal Companion instead of buying stuff for himself. VoP Druid is a more extreme version of that.] Monk is not one of those classes; its class features do not come anywhere near covering the assortment of options you're supposed to be getting from your magic items.



Assuming a standard wealth campaign, when is a VoP character worth it? I've always wanted to try playing one, but not being able to have items sort of blows.

If you can't tell, my answer to the question is "never." But if you must do it, Druids and Incarnum-using characters usually hurt the least.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:41 AM
My genteel suggestion is that you use VoP with greyguard, which allows you to, at 15th or so, start using items again.

No joke. This way lies madness. Vow Of Peace for additional fun.

I had an apostle of peace build using this that got 9th level spells, wore full plate, and caused weapons to shatter against its skin. Called it chuck norris. If you like, I can post it.

RMS Oceanic
2009-06-03, 02:43 AM
I think that's a deliberate abuse of the Greyguard's capstone ability, and certainly not intended to be played like that.

I love it. :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:44 AM
I'm... I'm fairly well-known on the WotC CO boards for being a hardcore TO guy. This is par for the course with me. I'm glad someone liked it. I owe the excellent malkavon tremendously for it.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-03, 02:50 AM
My genteel suggestion is that you use VoP with greyguard, which allows you to, at 15th or so, start using items again.

No joke.
I'm having a hard time finding where the VoP benefits are listed as 'class abilities.'
I'm not seeing where not needing to atone would help with VoP either.

So while it fits thematically and while it would be pretty slick, I'm not seeing rules support for this.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:53 AM
It's the capstone. It turns off your vows depending on your RAW reading, and how well you scribble up your back story.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-03, 02:57 AM
A Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) is actually a good candidate for VoP, especially if you dip Monk, Ninja, or Swordsage early on for Wis to AC. Go Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen (2 HD, +1 LA) Monk 1/ Soulknife 2/ Soulbow 8/ Soulknife +7, with (Improved, Greater) Multiweapon Fighting, and put the Lucky and Seeking properties on your Mind Arrows. With Zen Archery your only important stat will be Wisdom, it's a bit one-sided but there aren't many ranged builds that can put out as much damage all day long as this does.

olentu
2009-06-03, 03:04 AM
It's the capstone. It turns off your vows depending on your RAW reading, and how well you scribble up your back story.

Yeah I am going to have to go with it is not a class ability and thus you still risk loosing it and since I do not remember the feat it also may not be a code of conduct and thus you may still have to atone.

But in any case I guess a totemist could be alright with the vow of poverty.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:07 AM
I suppose I will go re-read gray guard.
::sighs::

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-03, 03:07 AM
It's the capstone. It turns off your vows depending on your RAW reading, and how well you scribble up your back story.

Right, but the capstone specifies protection of 'class abilities' dependant on codes of conduct and never needing to atone for any breaches of said code.

Aside from 'Code of Conduct' being a game-term specific to the Knight, Paladin and several other classes, Vow of Poverty's benefits are not listed as 'class abilities' so a breach in its code is not guarded by the Grey Guard ability.

If some DMs use the fluff passage of "You are granted the freedom to act on behalf of your faith as you deem necessary" -- a passage that doesn't have any crunch support that extends to VoP -- as the final say, that's fine and dandy, but I don't see any rules here that imply freedom from VoP's restrictions.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:11 AM
Ugh, I suppose you are correct. I'm AFB right now, so if I find any contra-evidence, I'll post it. But for now consider the idea withdrawn. I'm just striking out today.

RMS Oceanic
2009-06-03, 03:14 AM
What if you homebrewed that the Greyguard gained Vow of Poverty as a bonus feat? Would that count as a class ability? :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, the Soulbow is also a good choice to Vopanize.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:18 AM
Oh yes, I remember... Basically the jig was that violating your Vows would lose you the class abilities of Apostle of Peace. Very tenuous, I know.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-03, 03:19 AM
Oh yes, I remember... Basically the jig was that violating your Vows would lose you the class abilities of Apostle of Peace. Very tenuous, I know.

Now that is an idea I like.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:21 AM
Yes, I remembered it was a very clever hack.
Credit goes to Malkavon for that one :)

olentu
2009-06-03, 03:30 AM
Well you only loose the benefit of the feat for violating the vow rather then loosing the actual the feat itself.

But in any case totemist looks alright as it primarily uses natural attacks, and it can get some useful abilities such as flight.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:32 AM
Yes, but losing that would make you lose AoP class features. So clearly, you can't ;)

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-03, 03:53 AM
It's the capstone. It turns off your vows depending on your RAW reading, and how well you scribble up your back story.

Well, RAW is fairly straight forward.


Thus, you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct.

Scribbling up a backstory rarely has anything to do with RAW, unless its qualifying for the occasional prereq. Now a friendly DM might see this and interpret it to work with vow of poverty, there is more than enough to work thematically, and would be interesting how the higher ups in your order would work out you breaking the vows so regularly. But the RAW is specific, this doesn't work with the Vows.

Otherwise to the question at hand. If your interested in playing a druid who isn't caster level dependent (which will be difficult without items) might I interest you in some warshaper? A couple dips and it could really toughen up your wild shapes. Also, if you don't plan on going far in druid your animal companion will suffer at higher levels, take a look at the druidic Avengar, you get some rages per day at the price of your animal companion. Also, there is a Wildshape ranger that gets better bab and hd for your buck.

A 20th level build would be something like this (not really a progression):
Dream Dwarf (races of stone, favored class druid)
Monk**1/Fighter1/Druid Avenger* 8/Warshaper2/Fist of the Forest 3/Deepwarden 2/Whatever (Druid) +3
**Overwhelming Attack: gains power attack
*A very nice DM will maybe let you swap out fast movement for the pounce ability a la lion spiritual totem barbarian (long shot, but worth asking)

Feats:
monk: Improved unarmed strike
monk: power attack
1)Sacred vow
fighter:endurance
3)Vow of Peace
6)Natural Spell
9)Great Fortitude
12)Beast Strike* (DR355)
15)Superior unarmed strike

Other feats to look at:
Improved Grapple>Martial Throw (always a fan)
Hammer fist (more strength damage and power attack damage)

*This is more obscure feat and the dm is bound to say no to this as its dragon mag. The feats lets you combine your natural attack (claw or slam) damage dice with your unarmed strike when making unarmed strikes or grapple checks to deal damage.

Don't forget to use your unarmed strikes as primary attacks for your bab and everything else as secondary and size increasments.

Note: Druidic Avenger 8 lets you be in wildshape 24 hours a day large (3 times per day for 8 hours) and grants that 3rd rage per day. If you grab 1 more level you can get 5th level spells.

Still needs refining but see if you can pull anything out of that as useful.

Edit:

Oh yes, I remember... Basically the jig was that violating your Vows would lose you the class abilities of Apostle of Peace. Very tenuous, I know.
The class ability in question does not save you from breaking your vows (or retraining/psionic-reforming feats for that matter). Breaking your vows makes class abilities unusable as per described in CW page 16 which isn't superseded by this class ability.

Edit2: Bah, I am wrong, olentu is correct.

If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat
You don't lose the feat, and therefore you don't lose the class abilities via the CW page 16 ruling.

Narmoth
2009-06-03, 04:19 AM
A homebrew removing the enchantment bonus from the VoP in trade for retaining weapons makes VoP great for melee classes
Duelist, from DMG would be fun to play with VoP as it is

olentu
2009-06-03, 04:30 AM
Yes, but losing that would make you lose AoP class features. So clearly, you can't ;)

I am taking the feat to mean only the stuff listed under the benefit section to count as a benefit of the feat and thus since only the benefit is lost and not the feat itself one would still qualify for things that require having the feat as a prerequisite.

Edit: Well apparently I should try to get around to replying a bit faster and not leave windows sitting open for so long.

Mark Hall
2009-06-03, 10:39 AM
A suggestion I heard was for a Vow of Poverty Sorcerer, especially with Eschew Materials. Avoid expensive spells, and you can do quite a bit with the VoP's abilities.

Optimystik
2009-06-03, 10:56 AM
Thirding VoP Soulbow. If that enemy wizard takes the sky, perforate him.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-03, 11:01 AM
But in any case I guess a totemist could be alright with the vow of poverty.

Good? Try Awesome. Totemist is one of the best class choices for VoP characters.

WHy? Because you can bypass the weaknesses with soulmelds. The Enhancement bonuses are amazing for your natural weapons (or other ones, how does Manticore Belt sound?), and a few of the bonus feats are just plain broken in the right hands (Touch of Golden Ice on a character than can get 8 attacks/round? Sure, why the hell not. Sanctify Natural Strike is good for killing people with Manticore Belt/Girallon Arms).

The only thing you miss out on? Inherent bonuses, but Animal Devotion can make up for some of that problem. Oh, and Incarnum Foci, but those are worth the trade most of the time.





In short: VoP Totemist is a good idea. Don't take Vow of Peace though. Ever.

Optimystik
2009-06-03, 11:05 AM
Good? Try Awesome. Totemist is one of the best class choices for VoP characters.

Totemist: Like Soulknife, except it works.

Kaiser Omnik
2009-06-03, 11:06 AM
I'd suggest playing whatever class you like. VOP is not about minmaxing, it's about roleplay. Some classes are better with VOP than others, obviously, but if I chose to minmax, I wouldn't choose VOP. Sorry, I know that you were looking to semi-optimize your idea, but I really don't associate VOP and optimization lol. Feel free to ignore this.

I played a VOP monk once and it was lots of fun. He wasn't underpowered (well, no more than a normal monk). He was certainly playable.

namo
2009-06-03, 11:55 AM
I may get to play a VoP Dragonfire Adept soon - I think it works out well, in part because there are few items that are must-have for DAs. And they can get flight as an invocation.

Glyde
2009-06-03, 12:00 PM
Soulbow is good, but I really like unarmed swordsage for VoP. Make it an old-age human for classical kung fu master effect. Nothin but a thin beard, wide brimmed hat, wooden sandals and ragged shorts.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-03, 12:24 PM
Totemist: Like Soulknife, except it works.

I'd compare it more to the Wild Shape Ranger, only more impressive and less questionable.

Heliomance
2009-06-03, 12:32 PM
I am taking the feat to mean only the stuff listed under the benefit section to count as a benefit of the feat and thus since only the benefit is lost and not the feat itself one would still qualify for things that require having the feat as a prerequisite.

Edit: Well apparently I should try to get around to replying a bit faster and not leave windows sitting open for so long.

I'm willing to bet that were you DMing and someone played an Apostle of Peace and violated their vows without having Sacrament of the True Faith you'd strip their Apostle of Peace abilities.

Talya
2009-06-03, 12:43 PM
VOP is actually excellent for a wildshaping druid in a normal campaign. All its benefits work while wildshaped. In core, a wildshaped druid can, with a lot of effort, get their armor to work (+3 wild enhancement), and if they only wildshape into medium sized humanoid types like gorillas want to spend a few rounds putting their jewelry back on and picking up their weapons, you could manage it, but it's not worth it. VOP ends up being a far better choice.

In a campaign where the DM allows druids to use those optional non-core clasps that let their magic items work while wildshaped, well, then VOP is less ideal, but you should probably have quit the moment you found out he was allowing those anyway. Druids don't need need that type of help. Which, incidentally, means VOP fills in for those wilding clasps (or whatever they're called) and re-breaks wildshape again....so I suppose it doesn't matter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-03, 12:46 PM
In short: VoP Totemist is a good idea. Don't take Vow of Peace though. Ever.Beguiler. if you can get your party to not hate you for it, the massive bonuses from VoNV/VoP can be worth it if your class has no direct-damage or death effects anyways.

Edit:
VOP is actually excellent for a wildshaping druid in a normal campaign. All its benefits work while wildshaped. In core, a wildshaped druid can, with a lot of effort, get their armor to work (+3 wild enhancement), and if they only wildshape into medium sized humanoid types like gorillas want to spend a few rounds putting their jewelry back on and picking up their weapons, you could manage it, but it's not worth it. VOP ends up being a far better choice.Actually, all magic items except weapons/armor reshape to fit a new wielder. The example given is a Beholder wearing rings on his eyestalks, IIRC. So you can Wildshape into a Dire Lion and have an ally re-equip you with 2 rings(you have toes), gauntlets(you have paws), bracers(you have legs), a cloak(you have a neck), an Amulet(you have a neck), and all the other slots. The clasps aren't worth the cash, and VoP is still useless.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 12:49 PM
I'm willing to bet that were you DMing and someone played an Apostle of Peace and violated their vows without having Sacrament of the True Faith you'd strip their Apostle of Peace abilities.

Thank you, it's nice to see I'm not just talking out of my unmouth alone in the dark here. In fact, I'm AFB, but I am pretty sure that it actually says something to this effect in the AoP descript.

Heliomance
2009-06-03, 01:15 PM
Actually, it doesn't. Moreover, it actually says in the class description:


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor).

So you could argue that you don't actually need the Greyguard cheese to wear items safely.

Optimystik
2009-06-03, 01:35 PM
I'd compare it more to the Wild Shape Ranger, only more impressive and less questionable.

The reason I compared the two is that the Totemist also does the whole "weapon from thin air" thing. The difference of course is that the Totemist can actually frontline without getting his ass handed to him on a platter.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-03, 01:38 PM
The reason I compared the two is that the Totemist also does the whole "weapon from thin air" thing. The difference of course is that the Totemist can actually frontline without getting his ass handed to him on a platter.

Incarnate does that. Totemists grow natural weapons.

Talya
2009-06-03, 02:49 PM
and have an ally re-equip you with 2 rings(you have toes), gauntlets(you have paws), bracers(you have legs), a cloak(you have a neck), an Amulet(you have a neck), and all the other slots. The clasps aren't worth the cash, and VoP is still useless.



As I stated in my post, at 1 round per item, is that really worth doing every time? I can see it now.


The elemental monolith of earth prepares to squash the party. The druid holds up his hand to the monolith.

"Hold on a moment, my good man. Give us just a second."

The elemental looks down at then quizically, his massive rocky fist paused.

The druid quickly takes off his jewelry and other items (2-3 rounds) that will "meld" with him, looks at the party rogue, thinks better of it and instead drops them into the hands of the party fighter. He then wildshapes. The fighter struggles to get the tiny rings onto the dire tiger's toes, looking back up at the elemental monolith. "Just a minute, we're almost ready..."

*THUMP*


Yeah, you could do it in advance, but one of the sweet things about wildshape is the spontaneous versatility of it, which you entirely lose if you lock yourself into the same form for hours.

It's also worth pointing out that mechanically, VOP gives far more than you can buy with WBL. It's just not flexible. For a monk this is disastrous, as the monk needs the flexibility to be able to fly or other utilities. The druid, however, can do those things WITHOUT equipment, and gets more AC/Damage/attack bonus/etc. than he'd ever get with gear, in addition to most of the staple "must haves" (Freedom of movement, trueseeing, etc.)

olentu
2009-06-03, 02:52 PM
I'm willing to bet that were you DMing and someone played an Apostle of Peace and violated their vows without having Sacrament of the True Faith you'd strip their Apostle of Peace abilities.

Well leaving aside the weapon and armor thing since I would have to consider it for a time.

I do not always play strictly by the rules and in some cases I might make a houserule where an apostle of peace looses its abilities for breaking a vow but it would be a houserule and I would not be able to defend it as anything else.

Otherwise since nothing has yet changed my mind on the subject if I was not houseruling an apostle of peace would not loose class features for breaking a vow.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-03, 03:02 PM
As I stated in my post, at 1 round per item, is that really worth doing every time? I can see it now.Who Wildshapes during combat? Yes, the occasional time you have to Fly or Burrow, but it;s generally best for the Druid to spend most of his time as a Dire Polar Bear rather than a 8 Str 10 Dex Hobbit.
It's also worth pointing out that mechanically, VOP gives far more than you can buy with WBL. It's just not flexible. For a monk this is disastrous, as the monk needs the flexibility to be able to fly or other utilities. The druid, however, can do those things WITHOUT equipment, and gets more AC/Damage/attack bonus/etc. than he'd ever get with gear, in addition to most of the staple "must haves" (Freedom of movement, trueseeing, etc.)I think the general value is 80% of WBL. It's not more, but it's enough that you can almost keep up, as long as you can handle the loss of flexibility.

Talya
2009-06-03, 03:06 PM
Who Wildshapes during combat? Yes, the occasional time you have to Fly or Burrow, but it;s generally best for the Druid to spend most of his time as a Dire Polar Bear rather than a 8 Str 10 Dex Hobbit.

I suppose it depends on the campaign. I don't think most druids are going to self-identify as animals, and would rather spend their time in their natural form. There is no doubt a "Furry" population who'd disagree with me on that, but to each their own.


I think the general value is 80% of WBL. It's not more, but it's enough that you can almost keep up, as long as you can handle the loss of flexibility.

I'm sure it's way higher than that, i worked it out once. The +8 ability score bonus alone is worth 640,000 gp. Even discounting the epic costs involved of a +8 ability score bonus, it's very competitive. And that's not counting the feats (of which there are easily 10 useful exalted feats for a druid).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-03, 03:14 PM
I suppose it depends on the campaign. I don't think most druids are going to self-identify as animals, and would rather spend their time in their natural form.They spend most of their time in violent regions filled with stuff that would like nothing better than to ambush and kill them. I'd rather spend my time as a Lion than a primate in that situation.

Edit:And no, I'm not a Furry. I'm a coward, and I think when in a region that makes Iraq look like Vatican City, most reasonable people would want to be safe more than they'd want opposable thumbs.
I'm sure it's way higher than that, i worked it out once. The +8 ability score bonus alone is worth 640,000 gp. Even discounting the epic costs involved of a +8 ability score bonus, it's very competitive. And that's not counting the feats (of which there are easily 10 useful exalted feats for a druid).It depends on the math the exact percentage, but generally it's calculated as a +6 Enhancement and +2 Inherrant, not a single +8. If you have Wish, that changes, but the -5k XP is not good at that point. The feats are another story, but generally they aren't that good. Some of them are, but trying to calculate their value will vary from character to character(A Beguiler gets great benefits from VoNV/VoP, but most of the characters can't use those at all).

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:18 PM
Edit:And no, I'm not a Furry. I'm a coward, and I think when in a region that makes Iraq look like Vatican City, most reasonable people would want to be safe more than they'd want opposable thumbs.

Sing it, brotha!

Chronos
2009-06-03, 05:56 PM
(Touch of Golden Ice on a character than can get 8 attacks/round? Sure, why the hell not. Sanctify Natural Strike is good for killing people with Manticore Belt/Girallon Arms).Except that, to get that many attacks per round, you probably need Lamia Belt, which (for unexplained reasons) has the [evil] tag. On a standard character, you can debate how many uses of an [evil] soulmeld is needed to cause an alignment shift, but exalted feats don't allow any evil actions at all.

Lamech
2009-06-03, 06:05 PM
Does it say using a soulmeld with the [evil] descriptor is an evil act? It doesn't for spells. Its just a descriptor that interacts with all sorts of things. Such as cleric casting, or other spells.

Talya
2009-06-03, 06:25 PM
Except that, to get that many attacks per round, you probably need Lamia Belt, which (for unexplained reasons) has the [evil] tag. On a standard character, you can debate how many uses of an [evil] soulmeld is needed to cause an alignment shift, but exalted feats don't allow any evil actions at all.

I agree with the essence of your statement, but people with exalted feats are not beholden to a paladin-style code of conduct (at least, not if they are not paladins). They can make mistakes and do the morally wrong thing, the are not saints. (At least, not unless they have the Saint template.) Sacred Vows do bind them to the vow itself, mind you.

Touch of Golden Ice is going to be great for my VOP merfolk druid in an aquatic campaign i'm playing in, combined with Wildshape Giant Squid = 10 primary attacks. Sure, the DC is only 13, but even if you can only fail on a natural 1, that's up to 10 chances per round to roll that natural 1. The giant squid is huge, so that will be a while, but the Giant Octopus gets 8 primary attacks and is only large...

Frosty
2009-06-03, 07:09 PM
Note to posters: I don't use incarnum, so those builds are not useful to me. Wildshape ranger sounds decent too, but aren't they restricted to medium-sized animals?

Vortling
2009-06-03, 07:35 PM
Note to posters: I don't use incarnum, so those builds are not useful to me. Wildshape ranger sounds decent too, but aren't they restricted to medium-sized animals?
This is correct. Mind you it makes for a nice lead in to MoMF or Warshaper if you want to go that route since the ranger keeps his full BaB. Also Fleshrakers are a medium sized animal.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-03, 10:58 PM
I agree with the essence of your statement, but people with exalted feats are not beholden to a paladin-style code of conduct (at least, not if they are not paladins). They can make mistakes and do the morally wrong thing, the are not saints. (At least, not unless they have the Saint template.) Sacred Vows do bind them to the vow itself, mind you.Are you sure? I avoid the book most of the time(hating Exalted), but I thought that being Exalted was essentially never committing an Evil act(which casting an Evil spell, and I assume using an Evil Soulmeld, is) except for the occasional error.

Lamech
2009-06-03, 11:14 PM
IIRC exhalted was basically the good part of being a paladin. Never commiting an evil act, but you would still be allowed to lie and use poison and not have a code of conduct. (Unless you take those vows: they'll all push you in the lawful direction, and give you a code of conduct.)

And where is this idea that casting [evil] spells is an evil act? I'm not seeing it anywhere in the rules, and it doesn't really make much sense to me that casting say deathwatch would be evil. Too put it another way is kidnapping a random celestial a good act?

olentu
2009-06-04, 01:36 AM
IIRC exhalted was basically the good part of being a paladin. Never commiting an evil act, but you would still be allowed to lie and use poison and not have a code of conduct. (Unless you take those vows: they'll all push you in the lawful direction, and give you a code of conduct.)

And where is this idea that casting [evil] spells is an evil act? I'm not seeing it anywhere in the rules, and it doesn't really make much sense to me that casting say deathwatch would be evil. Too put it another way is kidnapping a random celestial a good act?

Well one could not use poison that deals ability damage as doing so is an evil act. Also I believe that the book of vile darkness says that casting an evil spell is an evil act but I would have to look it up to be sure.

Heliomance
2009-06-04, 01:39 AM
Well one could not use poison that deals ability damage as doing so is an evil act.

Unless done by a Ravage, otherwise known as not-a-poison-at-all-despite-having-exactly-the-same-symptoms-and-effects-as-a-poison-honest. If you use one of them then doing ability damage is absolutely fine!