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View Full Version : Dr. Horrible experience... something wrong with me?



BHodges3
2009-06-05, 09:05 AM
Let me preface this by saying that I really enjoyed Firefly and Serenity. I also enjoy The Guild. I DO want to punch Neil Patrick Harris in the face everytime I see him though.

Now that I have all of that out of the way... I purchased and watched Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog yesterday for the first time. As I sat there watching it I couldn't help but think "really?" This is what everyone has been going on and on about for so long? While some of the songs were cute and a line or two stuck out as being pretty amusing (the hammer one), I found myself forcing a smile onto my face so that my wife wouldn't make fun of me for watching this. I guess I shouldn't complain too much since it was only 10 dollars... but what am I missing?

Were there some other really hilarious lines that I missed? I grinned whenever he would read the notes about the Bad Horse and such, but everything else was just "meh". Has my intense wish to see Neil Patrick Harris burst into flames ruined an amazing experience for me? Any insight would be much appreciated.

Fri
2009-06-05, 09:14 AM
Maybe you just don't really care for musical?

Me, for example, is a huge fans of musical, and musical+ superhero+everything else=hillariously awesome for me.

BHodges3
2009-06-05, 09:20 AM
Don't think that is it. Liked the musical episode of Scrubs. Own Chicago, Annie, Phantom of the Opera, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Oliver, and several other musicals... all of which I enjoy. It did seem like the songs were all very similar though and none of them really stood out as being memorable. Maybe I just need to watch it again. I admit that it was pretty early in the morning when I watched it the first time.

Artemician
2009-06-05, 10:00 AM
I didnt' so much find it very funny or musically excellent (Bad Horse Chorus aside), but I found it quite an involving Drama. The first act starts off quite badly though, I agree.

BHodges3
2009-06-05, 11:00 AM
There were only two moments that seemed really genuine to me. The scene with him bumbling through his laundry as he pondered whether to approach her or not. And the final word of the movie. I will admit THAT was a bit of a punch in the gut. I guess I just figured that I had miss some really funny one-liners throughout. Maybe not.

Thanks for your input.

Joran
2009-06-05, 11:07 AM
I think it's one of those things where the hype may have raised your expectations past the threshold for you to enjoy it.

It's the same with my friend and the Usual Suspects. If you hear something is awesome for 5 straight months, very little is going to live up to that kind of hype.

If you like Joss Whedon's stuff, then you'll love Dr. Horrible. If you find his dialogue unnatural and dislike his humor, then you'll probably not like it as much.

BHodges3
2009-06-05, 11:27 AM
I think you probably nailed it with the "expectations" thing. While I thoroughly enjoy Firefly/Serenity, Dr. Horrible was just ok. I guess I thought it was going to be this epic musical (which I should've known better... what with it being this 3 shot on-line episode thing). Since I didn't experience it while it was on-line I went ahead and bought it on DVD. I think I ruined it for myself.

By the way, there IS something wrong with your friend. The Usual Suspects is great.

RabbitHoleLost
2009-06-05, 11:38 AM
To be honest, I didn't like Dr. Horrible the first time through, either.
What gets you is the songs.
They got stuck in my head, so that I had to watch it again, and, on my second watch through, I loved it. I noticed smaller details, and I laughed a lot more than the first experience.

At the same time, it just might not be your cup of tea.

Hzurr
2009-06-05, 11:39 AM
A couple of things:

First off, remember that Dr. Horrible was done simply by a bunch of friends killing time during the writer's strike. This helps put it in perspective, and I personally enjoy movies more when I know that the people doing the movies are enjoying themselves as well

Second, have you watched it with "Commentary: The Musical" playing instead of the default soundtrack? It's currently on my list of things to do, but I've heard several of my friends claim that it's better than the actual film

Finally, I should go ahead and echo expectations may have a lot to do with it, and that Usual Suspects is in my list of greatest movies ever, because I had never heard of it, and found it lying around the house one day, and decided to just pop it in. Since I had absolutely no expectations about it, it made my head explode a little bit.

Philistine
2009-06-05, 11:46 AM
Has my intense wish to see Neil Patrick Harris burst into flames ruined an amazing experience for me?

This probably has something to do with it. The premise of the show is that our protagonist is an ineffectual wanna-be supervillain who's trying to force himself to be bad enough to join the cool kids' club - it's not a terribly endearing scenario. Coming in with such an intense dislike for the actor playing the lead certainly isn't going to help you identify with the character, and I can't imagine the show "working" for you without that.

Starscream
2009-06-05, 02:41 PM
I personally loved it, but to me anything that involves Mad Scientists and Joss Whedon is automatically awesome.

And yes, the songs ruled. Especially Brand New Day.

TRM
2009-06-05, 02:52 PM
What's wrong with Neil Patrick Harris?

I was kind of "meh" on Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog as well, I certainly don't think it deserved all the hype that it's received. I was especially disappointed with the ending, it felt sudden and slightly flat. (I haven't watched it in a while though, so I may be remembering wrong.)


To be honest, I didn't like Dr. Horrible the first time through, either.
What gets you is the songs.
They got stuck in my head, so that I had to watch it again, and, on my second watch through, I loved it. I noticed smaller details, and I laughed a lot more than the first experience.
I agree wholeheartedly about the songs. The story and such was okay, but the songs were really exceptional. I thought both Patrick Harris and the girl who played Penny had great voices.

Philistine
2009-06-05, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure I'd describe either NPH or Felicia Day as having a "great" voice. "Character appropriate," on the other hand - that I could go for. And the two of them harmonized quite well, which is perhaps the more important thing.

Dienekes
2009-06-05, 03:26 PM
Firstly, I love Dr. Horrible, especially Brand New Day (something about a giant singing about killing someone brings a smile to my face every time I hear it). Secondly, I understand irrational dislike of actors but why NPH? He's one of the few actors that doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.
And finally to Rogue Monk, bah. The ending was the best part of the entire flick, with the protagonist victorious and dead inside.

BHodges3
2009-06-05, 04:38 PM
NPH just gives off this kind of "smug" vibe that rubs me the wrong way. One of those "I'm cool because I don't try to be cool... and that is what makes me so freakin' cool. If you don't think so, it is because you obviously aren't cool." kinds of things. The whole Quentin Tarantino syndrome.

Please keep in mind that I know I am absolutely bat-crap crazy.... so again... I just think it may be me and my deep-seated, albeit completely unfounded, anger towards NPH.

Will have to watch it again and pay more attention to the "Brand New Day" song.

Starscream
2009-06-05, 04:45 PM
I like Neil. He co-wrote and performed a Rifftrax on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Anyone who can keep up with Mike Nelson is okay in my book.

sealemon
2009-06-05, 06:48 PM
There's no such thing as an iccorect (subjective) opinion. There are plenty of movies that I am supposed to enjoy, and have thought "meh" about (Natural Born killers is a great example). There's a reason Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

So, while I'm a huge NPH fan, I got no hate for ya at all.

Eldan
2009-06-05, 08:00 PM
Well, Joss Whedon is no guarantee for quality for me... I loved Firefly and Doctor Horrible, but thought that Buffy and Angel were at least 75% rubbish.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-05, 11:35 PM
Wow, I can't imagine not utterly loving every aspect of DHSAB.

In all seriousness, I really mean that.

Finn Solomon
2009-06-06, 12:03 AM
I don't really like Neil Patrick Harris, but Nathan Fillion is awesome, so I find the series pretty much okay.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-06-06, 12:03 AM
I liked it. Thought it was entertaining.

But I never understood as to how someone could love it. What made it so special, really?

Icewalker
2009-06-06, 01:13 AM
I really liked it (although I have been noticing more and more that there are very few things I don't really like, so...)

...more so than usual though. I'm a big fan of musicals, Joss Whedon, NPH, and Nathan Fillion, so that probably helped a lot. Plus, my circle of friends is also hugely into musicals and quite musical themselves, so we tend to burst into song, and Dr. Horrible is definitely high on the list there.

I dunno. I found it very well done.

snoopy13a
2009-06-06, 03:24 AM
Let me preface this by saying that I really enjoyed Firefly and Serenity. I also enjoy The Guild. I DO want to punch Neil Patrick Harris in the face everytime I see him though.

Now that I have all of that out of the way... I purchased and watched Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog yesterday for the first time. As I sat there watching it I couldn't help but think "really?" This is what everyone has been going on and on about for so long? While some of the songs were cute and a line or two stuck out as being pretty amusing (the hammer one), I found myself forcing a smile onto my face so that my wife wouldn't make fun of me for watching this. I guess I shouldn't complain too much since it was only 10 dollars... but what am I missing?

Were there some other really hilarious lines that I missed? I grinned whenever he would read the notes about the Bad Horse and such, but everything else was just "meh". Has my intense wish to see Neil Patrick Harris burst into flames ruined an amazing experience for me? Any insight would be much appreciated.

There's no law that you have to like what your friends like. Personal tastes are personal. For example, I like most of Joss Wheldon's stuff but I didn't like Angel.

However, I don't understand the Neil Patrick Harris hate. He was great in the Harold and Kumar movies* :smallbiggrin:

* Obviously, I'm kidding. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with people about stuff. Unless it is the NY Yankees. If you don't like the Yankees, you're a commie*

* Joking again :smalltongue:

lisiecki
2009-06-06, 05:02 AM
Dr Horrible is the first thing that was ruined for me, by other fans.

Having talked about it with people, they some how seem to thing that Horrible is a endearing, likable, sympathetic character.

He's a guy, who goes around robbing people and causing chaos for no good reason, and eventually kills her.

He kills her, because hes jellious of the guy who actually helped her acheave her dreams, while he was sitting in his lair thinking of yet more ways, to rob more people.

Artemician
2009-06-06, 07:51 AM
Dr Horrible is the first thing that was ruined for me, by other fans.

Having talked about it with people, they some how seem to thing that Horrible is a endearing, likable, sympathetic character.

He's a guy, who goes around robbing people and causing chaos for no good reason, and eventually kills her.

He kills her, because hes jellious of the guy who actually helped her acheave her dreams, while he was sitting in his lair thinking of yet more ways, to rob more people.
That is one warped reading. Really.

Serpentine
2009-06-06, 08:20 AM
If you like Joss Whedon's stuff, then you'll love Dr. Horrible. If you find his dialogue unnatural and dislike his humor, then you'll probably not like it as much.What about those of us who think that most of his stuff - particularly the most beloved stuff - is mildly entertaining and engaging enough if there's nothing better on, easy enough to watch but not particularly something to go out of one's way to see?

lisiecki
2009-06-06, 08:20 AM
That is one warped reading. Really.


Um how so?

Billy goes around committing random and violent crimes, while "In love" with Penny.

Penny forms a relationship with Capt Hammer. Capt Hammer helps Penny acheave her long term goal of opening a homeless shelter.

At the dedication, Billy, who's upset because Penny is with Hammer, and not him attacks. He attempts to impress Penny, by killing the boyfriend who has helped her acheave said long term goal, and to improve the city.

That is EXACTLY what happens in the blog.

Billy is the point of view character, but he is unlikeable, objectifys Penny, and spends long periods of time planing to do harm to other human beings. One of whom he plots to murder, because said target is dating the woman he "loves"

valadil
2009-06-06, 08:29 AM
If you like Joss Whedon's stuff, then you'll love Dr. Horrible. If you find his dialogue unnatural and dislike his humor, then you'll probably not like it as much.

I can't attest to liking Joss's other stuff meaning that you'll like DH, but the other part of this statement is totally true for me.

Artemician
2009-06-06, 10:30 AM
Billy goes around committing random and violent crimes, while "In love" with Penny.

Penny forms a relationship with Capt Hammer. Capt Hammer helps Penny acheave her long term goal of opening a homeless shelter.

At the dedication, Billy, who's upset because Penny is with Hammer, and not him attacks. He attempts to impress Penny, by killing the boyfriend who has helped her acheave said long term goal, and to improve the city.

That is EXACTLY what happens in the blog.

Billy is the point of view character, but he is unlikeable, objectifys Penny, and spends long periods of time planing to do harm to other human beings. One of whom he plots to murder, because said target is dating the woman he "loves"
Billy commits crimes because he wants to get into the Evil League to Evil, because he wants to fit in with the 'cool boys' and not be a failure. His motivation is not to cause harm to people (in fact, he goes out of his way to avoid it), but a drive for any form of success in his pathetic life.

His desire for Penny is entirely unrelated to this.

He has plenty of reason to hate Captain Hammer - Hammer is a sadistic ultramasculine egoist who actively takes pleasure in causing him harm beyond simply stopping his plans, and who doesn't give a damn for anybody except himself.

His helping of Penny is not motivated by any real desire to help the homeless, but rather only to improve his own social standing and to please Penny. He displays a lack of any real concern to the issue, as shown in his riduculous speech at the opening ceremony of the shelter, as well as his internal thoughts (in which he also reveals his womanising and hedonistic lifestyle).

Penny is quite aware of this, and is torn between wanting to reject Hammer's repugnant personality, and staying with him out of gratitude.

Billy only acts to kill Hammer after Hammer has foiled his first attempt to enter the Evil League of Evil (in which nobody would be harmed physically), taken the person of his desire, and rubbed it in his face along with excessive violence. Billy is pretty much deranged at this point - the moment his life seems to be taking a turn for the better, Captain Hammer has destroyed everything and cast his down lower than ever. These rather extreme circumstances drive him to attempt to kill Captain Hammer as part of his Evil League of Evil initiation ritual; Billy is in fact extremely averse to harming people in normal circumstances.

I'll agree that Billy cannot be said to be a beacon of Morality, or a likeable character, but the way you're reading the work isn't justified.

lisiecki
2009-06-06, 10:56 AM
Billy commits crimes because he wants to get into the Evil League to Evil, because he wants to fit in with the 'cool boys' and not be a failure. His motivation is not to cause harm to people (in fact, he goes out of his way to avoid it), but a drive for any form of success in his pathetic life.

Yes, He spends ALOT of time planing bad things, to impress bad people



His desire for Penny is entirely unrelated to this.


I agree


He has plenty of reason to hate Captain Hammer - Hammer is a sadistic ultramasculine egoist who actively takes pleasure in causing him harm beyond simply stopping his plans, and who doesn't give a damn for anybody except himself.

If I were Hammer, I would also most likely enjoy beating the sycophantic followers of an evil horse as well. Also I got to throw this out here. Hammer ONLY beats the crap out of Billy when he finds bill committing random crimes. This may just be me, but if i repeatedly break the law, and am repeatedly done bodily harm by the defenders of the city, Im going to stop doing that. Its clear that Hammer knows who Billy is BEFORE they meet at the laundry mat. If Hammer were "actively taking pleasure" in beating billy up, why not go to Billy's home and beat him up there?



His helping of Penny is not motivated by any real desire to help the homeless, but rather only to improve his own social standing and to please Penny. He displays a lack of any real concern to the issue, as shown in his riduculous speech at the opening ceremony of the shelter, as well as his internal thoughts (in which he also reveals his womanising and hedonistic lifestyle). Penny is quite aware of this, and is torn between wanting to reject Hammer's repugnant personality, and staying with him out of gratitude.

Yes, but as far as we know, Billy is unaware of this. The last time that we know he saw Penny and Hammer, Penny seemed quite infatuated, and has no reason to believe otherwise.




Billy only acts to kill Hammer after Hammer has foiled his first attempt to enter the Evil League of Evil (in which nobody would be harmed physically), taken the person of his desire, and rubbed it in his face along with excessive violence.


Yes, he's willing to kill some one, inorder to join an evil horses fanclub. This is BAD.


Billy is pretty much deranged at this point - the moment his life seems to be taking a turn for the better, Captain Hammer has destroyed everything and cast his down lower than ever. These rather extreme circumstances drive him to attempt to kill Captain Hammer as part of his Evil League of Evil initiation ritual; Billy is in fact extremely averse to harming people in normal circumstances.

Captain Hammer hasn't destroyed anything. BILLY destroyed everything.
If Billy had shown some innovative he may or may not have been dating Penny by this point. If he hadn't attempted to hijack the armored car, Hammer and Penny would never have met. If he didn't put his feelings on a video blog, Hammer wouldnt have known that being with Penny hurt Billy as much as it did



I'll agree that Billy cannot be said to be a beacon of Morality, or a likeable character, but the way you're reading the work isn't justified.

Billy's a pretty horrible person. The fact that he blames others for his actions, doesn't absolve him from his guilt

Dienekes
2009-06-06, 11:01 AM
Actually, I'd have to agree with much of lisiecki's description of the blog. And oddly enough that is exactly why I like the character and find him endearing.

You'll notice, Artemician, that he even says his motivation is to simply upset order. "It's not about making money, it's about taking money." Sure he shies away from causing physical harm, because he really is rather pathetic. His avoidance of fights throughout the blog has the feeling of a misguided geek back in Junior High (or whatever age you noticed geeks getting bullied). He also is shown as increasing egotistic as the series progresses, only not exactly in the way of Captain Hammer. His egotism and dislike of the system (which he can only make random poorly thought up reasons as to why the system is broken) makes his goals completely contradictory; "Anarchy, that I run", only focusing on getting into the evil league of evil. A goal that to achieve he is willing to forget his principles once he finds a guy he really really doesn't like. Much like Captain Hammer, he only cares for the homeless so much as it gets him to Penny. Upon finding that Penny strives for helping the homeless he tacks on and starts stating how that relates to his goal. However, afterward he never repeats this reason, as it becomes clearer that the only reason he wants to upset the established order is through greed and personal ego.

Hammer is an interesting character. He's a complete arse also motivated by his own ego who through the events of the plot does more good than any other character. He is the penultimate example that the audience lets personal feelings toward a character affect their judgment on both him and his actions. Sure he's a git, but he stops crimes, saves the city, and builds a new homeless shelter.

The only character who is admirable in the entire series is Penny. Also, she's the most boring character. I added this to hopefully show that being good or being evil doesn't really affect endearment to the masses.

What I really enjoyed though was that unlike most series involving heroes and villains and the like, the rolls are reversed. The hero is generally a man with a day job, or some other personality, in which they try to live a normal (and often successful) life. The villains either have no other personality, or use it as a facade to help them achieve their evil goals. Here we have a villain whose other personality is really a slightly deranged average joe failure, and the hero is always the hero, so much so that he is only referred to as Captain Hammer, wears no mask, and whatnot.

Fri
2009-06-06, 11:07 AM
I actually agree. Dr Horrible is sympathetic, but he's still a villain. Villain with good intention, maybe, but a lot of villain got good intention.

I wonder why Dr Horrible didn't simply join the league of brooding antiestablishment antihero instead.

lisiecki
2009-06-06, 11:12 AM
I actually agree. Dr Horrible is sympathetic, but he's still a villain. Villain with good intention, maybe, but a lot of villain got good intention.


Ok, This is NOT me trying to be obtuse.
But the only motivation's Ive seen Billy display are.

A) Make Penny his
B) Overthrow the "Status Quo" Now that could be good, but what part of the status quo, personally, im a fan of breathing air, i don't want that part changed.
C) Get revenge on Hammer
and
D) Get in The Evil League of Evil.

Finn Solomon
2009-06-06, 11:12 AM
I actually agree. Dr Horrible is sympathetic, but he's still a villain. Villain with good intention, maybe, but a lot of villain got good intention.

I wonder why Dr Horrible didn't simply join the league of brooding antiestablishment antihero instead.

Too many various clones of Wolverine and Batman already had that job.

Artemician
2009-06-06, 11:26 AM
Yes, He spends ALOT of time planing bad things, to impress bad people
...
Yes, he's willing to kill some one, inorder to join an evil horses fanclub. This is BAD.
You have to examine his motivations in wanting to perform these deeds - he doesn't come across as a villainous character, but rather, a pathetic one.


If I were Hammer, I would also most likely enjoy beating the sycophantic followers of an evil horse as well. Also I got to throw this out here. Hammer ONLY beats the crap out of Billy when he finds bill committing random crimes. This may just be me, but if i repeatedly break the law, and am repeatedly done bodily harm by the defenders of the city, Im going to stop doing that.
Billy is pathetic, nobody disputes that. Hammer, who enjoys beating up pathetic people, is repugnant.


Its clear that Hammer knows who Billy is BEFORE they meet at the laundry mat. If Hammer were "actively taking pleasure" in beating billy up, why not go to Billy's home and beat him up there?
Indeed, why not go to his house and arrest him? If Hammer were truly interested in the welfare of the city, he'd do that. But he isn't, so he simply takes every opportunity he can get to beat up Billy.


Yes, but as far as we know, Billy is unaware of this. The last time that we know he saw Penny and Hammer, Penny seemed quite infatuated, and has no reason to believe otherwise.
Given that Hammer gives a tv-broadcast talk in which he reveals the extent of his depravity despite his attempts to hide it, it's not a big stretch to say that Billy, who has been... intricately involved with Hammer for some time would know what the person really was like. Granted, his views are mostly likely biased, but he was quite correct in saying that Penny was too good for Hammer.



Captain Hammer hasn't destroyed anything. BILLY destroyed everything.
If Billy had shown some innovative he may or may not have been dating Penny by this point. If he hadn't attempted to hijack the armored car, Hammer and Penny would never have met. If he didn't put his feelings on a video blog, Hammer wouldnt have known that being with Penny hurt Billy as much as it did
Don't forget that Captain Hammer almost killed Penny in the armoured car incident, in which Billy was also trying his utmost *not* to harm anyone ,including waiting for the driver to leave the car before hijacking it, as well as taking the time to steer around pedestrians instead of causing them harm.

There's no explicit reference to the video blog being circulated in-universe, so I don't know where you got that from.


Billy's a pretty horrible person. The fact that he blames others for his actions, doesn't absolve him from his guilt
Oh, Billy's a Horrible person alright (he has a PhD in it), but he's not a through-and-through villain like you make him out to be

lisiecki
2009-06-06, 11:33 AM
You have to examine his motivations in wanting to perform these deeds - he doesn't come across as a villainous character, but rather, a pathetic one.Billy is pathetic, nobody disputes that. Hammer, who enjoys beating up pathetic people, is repugnant.

I'm Not disaggreing, but Just because Hammer is bad, dosn't make Billy not bad.



Indeed, why not go to his house and arrest him? If Hammer were truly interested in the welfare of the city, he'd do that. But he isn't, so he simply takes every opportunity he can get to beat up Billy.

Or he can't its not really clear if he works for the city, or is just endorsed by them

OR Billy could take responsibility for his own actions, and stop committing crimes



Given that Hammer gives a tv-broadcast talk in which he reveals the extent of his depravity despite his attempts to hide it, it's not a big stretch to say that Billy, who has been... intricately involved with Hammer for some time would know what the person really was like. Granted, his views are mostly likely biased, but he was quite correct in saying that Penny was too good for Hammer.

Again, I'm not saying he's not a bad person. What im saying is that Billy has decided to save Penny from Hammer, with out regard to what Penny may feel about the situation



There's no explicit reference to the video blog being circulated in-universe, so I don't know where you got that from.


Dr. Horrible:
*cough* ahem. The Freeze-Ray needs work. I also need to be a LITTLE bit more careful about what I say on this blog. Apparently the L.A.P.D and Captain Hammer are among our viewers.

Aside for the explicit reference to the video blog being circulated in-universe



Oh, Billy's a Horrible person alright (he has a PhD in it), but he's not a through-and-through villain like you make him out to be



Oh you got me there, how about "Billy is a bad person, who is responsibly for his own problems. Just because Hammer is possibly a bad person, that dosnt mean that Billy isnt as bad or worse"

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 05:17 PM
I personally think that the ending is brilliant. Reminds me of Porcupine Tree's Fear of a Blank Planet

BHodges3
2009-06-08, 10:40 AM
OK.... so I have watched it a few more times. And I don't hate it. Here is the thing though... and I think it just goes back to me having simple tastes. When I watch something, I want to WANT someone to succeed. I want to WANT someone to fail. I may not be cheering on the person that you intended me to, but I have to have some personal investment in their success. In short... I need to care. The problem is... I don't care about anyone in the film. Dr. Horrible comes across as a whiny brat that just can't get things to go his way. Captain Hammer is a raging neanderthalic (is that a word) jerk. And Penny, the person that probably has the best chance at some form of sympathy ends up coming across as a door-mat / wet blanket. All of that ends up putting quite the damper on the way it all plays out. The final line ends up inspiring a "Sucks to be you" as opposed to a "OMG! What a tragedy!"

All of that being said, the songs are starting to get kind of catchy.
Final word... worth 10 bucks, glad I didn't pay 20.

Connington
2009-06-08, 10:55 AM
Captain Hammer hasn't destroyed anything. BILLY destroyed everything.If Billy had shown some innovative he may or may not have been dating Penny by this point. If he hadn't attempted to hijack the armored car, Hammer and Penny would never have met. If he didn't put his feelings on a video blog, Hammer wouldnt have known that being with Penny hurt Billy as much as it did

While one can definitely argue that Billy was responsible for his own fate, I think your taking the wrong tack here. Talking about Penny on his blog isn't wrong (although his semi-stalkerish behavior is creep), it was Captain Hammer who was to blame there, not Dr. Horrible. Meanwhile, it isn't Bill's fault that his heist led to Hammer and Penny meeting, it is however his fault that he chose to put pulling off his heist at the same level as saving Penny from the runaway truck.

lisiecki
2009-06-08, 01:56 PM
While one can definitely argue that Billy was responsible for his own fate, I think your taking the wrong tack here. Talking about Penny on his blog isn't wrong (although his semi-stalkerish behavior is creep), it was Captain Hammer who was to blame there, not Dr. Horrible. Meanwhile, it isn't Bill's fault that his heist led to Hammer and Penny meeting, it is however his fault that he chose to put pulling off his heist at the same level as saving Penny from the runaway truck.

It wasn't wrong as in a bad thing to do morally. It was a stuped choice.
If hammer hadn't of known that Billy was stalker level nuts for Penny then Hammer wouldn't have gone out of his way to insult Billy at the laundry mat.

(and before some one says Billy wasn't stalker level nuts, i refer you to the scene where he stalks her)

Zencao
2009-06-08, 10:47 PM
There's a reason Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.


I think you'll find there's actually thirty TWO flavors... Just as I suspected...

On topic, I found Dr Horrible to be an enjoyable experience, but hardly the masterpiece it's cracked up to be. People have the whole 'creator worship' of Joss Whedon that really exaggerates his stuff. While I think Firefly IS a masterpiece, there's a lot of Joss' other work that is no where near that quality, yet get's rubber stamped simply because his name is on it.

I like to keep in mind also that it's an internet original, like pure pwnage, or red vs blue. I rank it somewhere between those two on that scale.

The songs were quite good for an internet original, but I simply hated Penny's song. Hated hated hated it. A lot of her character I hated, she represents a lot of the bad things about Joss' writing for me (Even adding the Drama ex Machina death at the end)

Dienekes
2009-06-09, 01:02 AM
It wasn't wrong as in a bad thing to do morally. It was a stuped choice.
If hammer hadn't of known that Billy was stalker level nuts for Penny then Hammer wouldn't have gone out of his way to insult Billy at the laundry mat.

(and before some one says Billy wasn't stalker level nuts, i refer you to the scene where he stalks her)

1) as written it sounds like you're condoning theft. Which, while amusing I'm pretty sure wasn't the point you were trying to make.

2) Why wouldn't Hammer go out of his way to insult his arch nemesis? Even not knowing the stalkering. He saw a crush, so he laughed at it. Doesn't require much presence really, any schoolyard bully can do it.

lisiecki
2009-06-09, 01:13 AM
1) as written it sounds like you're condoning theft. Which, while amusing I'm pretty sure wasn't the point you were trying to make.

2) Why wouldn't Hammer go out of his way to insult his arch nemesis? Even not knowing the stalkering. He saw a crush, so he laughed at it. Doesn't require much presence really, any schoolyard bully can do it.

A) Ya now that you mention it i see it.

B) What I'm trying to say (and i admit, not saying it very well) is that i assume that Hammer knows Billy is Dr Horrible from The blog.
If Billy didn't have the blog up, the Hammer wouldn't have known that Billy is Horrible, and about his stalker crush on penny.

mangosta71
2009-06-09, 09:29 AM
We still have the point that someone made earlier - since Hammer knows that Billy is the good doctor, he could easily hand him over to the authorities if he wanted to. Even assuming that he has no legal authority of his own, there's this little thing called a citizen's arrest.

DHSAB, for me, is a fun little story as long as I don't look too deep. But then, since it was just thrown together in a hurry by a few friends, it can't be expected to have the same planning and substance as Firefly, or Buffy, or Dollhouse. It's an amusing look at a pathetic loser who wants to be part of the "cool" crowd.

lisiecki
2009-06-09, 09:48 AM
We still have the point that someone made earlier - since Hammer knows that Billy is the good doctor, he could easily hand him over to the authorities if he wanted to. Even assuming that he has no legal authority of his own, there's this little thing called a citizen's arrest.


Yes, but the cops also know that Billy is the good doctor, and they could easily and him over to them selves.

Also, after Billy attacked Hammer in a public park while srounded by children, I really think hammer has the right to beat him up.

Zencao
2009-06-09, 02:36 PM
Yes, but the cops also know that Billy is the good doctor, and they could easily and him over to them selves.

Also, after Billy attacked Hammer in a public park while srounded by children, I really think hammer has the right to beat him up.

I'd also like to add that I think hammer is well aware of just how pathetic Dr Horrible actually is. One alternate character interpretation I hold is that Hammer doesn't just arrest him because he knows what prison would do to him.

I mean come on, can you imagine him trying to survive in there? Hammer's a ****, but hardly evil.

Philistine
2009-06-09, 04:15 PM
Also, after Billy attacked Hammer in a public park while srounded by children, I really think hammer has the right to beat him up.

Do what now? One: The only time we see the Doc attacking Hammy at all is at the dedication of the homeless shelter in Act 3; he specifically targets Hammy with a weapon which immobilizes him without doing any other sort of damage or injury to anyone else, then walks up and down the aisle shooting at the ceiling, giving the bystanders an opportunity to escape before he tries to deliver the coup de grace. Two: The only time "a park full of children playing" is mentioned in the show is when the Doc is citing it as one of the reasons for his refusal to meet a challenge from Johnny Snow; while Doc does stalk Hammy and Penny through a park during Act 2, no "attack" ever takes place there... and no children on the screen that I recall.

In the Doc's own words: "What heist were you watching?"

Connington
2009-06-09, 05:20 PM
If Billy didn't have the blog up, the Hammer wouldn't have known that Billy is Horrible, and about his stalker crush on penny.

That's hardly a reasonable expectation of most people. Remember, Billy wasn't the type to expect Hammer to watch his blog, and certainly not the type to imagine someone picking on him for the sake of it.

Zencao
2009-06-09, 07:18 PM
Do what now? One: The only time we see the Doc attacking Hammy at all is at the dedication of the homeless shelter in Act 3; he specifically targets Hammy with a weapon which immobilizes him without doing any other sort of damage or injury to anyone else, then walks up and down the aisle shooting at the ceiling, giving the bystanders an opportunity to escape before he tries to deliver the coup de grace. Two: The only time "a park full of children playing" is mentioned in the show is when the Doc is citing it as one of the reasons for his refusal to meet a challenge from Johnny Snow; while Doc does stalk Hammy and Penny through a park during Act 2, no "attack" ever takes place there... and no children on the screen that I recall.

In the Doc's own words: "What heist were you watching?"

Haven't read the tie-in comics have you?

Yarram
2009-06-09, 08:29 PM
Don't think that is it. Liked the musical episode of Scrubs. Own Chicago, Annie, Phantom of the Opera, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Oliver, and several other musicals... all of which I enjoy. It did seem like the songs were all very similar though and none of them really stood out as being memorable. Maybe I just need to watch it again. I admit that it was pretty early in the morning when I watched it the first time.

Yeah, but all of those had really good story lines to go with them, except for Scrub's which was funny because it was paying out musical's in the first place, where as Dr. Horrible is about the great music, rather than the story.

hanzo66
2009-06-09, 08:38 PM
The side-comics does feature a scene where Dr. Horrible tries to ambush Hammer by being in line for his autographs (with Hammer quickly spotting him). His chosen weapon for the job was a device that disabled the muscles or something (non-lethal but would make Hammer weak).


Billy is portrayed as a villain in the "I'll Show Them, I'll Show Them All!" vein who probably had a miserable time in school, like this example:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z305/hanzo661/Birth_Super_Villian.jpg
He's for the most part someone who just thinks of Supervillainy as wearing an awesome outfit and having people run away from you as explosions happen in the background. Initially at least however he's hardly True Villain material (having a blog that he keeps open to the public for the mere reason of gloating about your plans is not exactly the greatest idea) even if he's a pretty good inventor and at nature he is at nature a rather pathetic individual with some rather petty motivations (Get the girl and SHOW THEM ALL!!! *laugh*).


Hammer is even less sympathetic, being the epitome of Superdickery. While his actions are technically heroic he's definitely one who'd be rejected a seat as a Justice Leaguer (if mainly for the mistake of sexually harassing Wonder Woman and laughing at Batman for being a powerless "nerd") and overall being basically the Jock on a Powertrip who's never been shown up.

'Least, that's how I'd interpret it...

Philistine
2009-06-09, 10:19 PM
Haven't read the tie-in comics have you?

You got me there.

But lisiecki's post (Doc attacked Hammy in a public park full of children!) made it sound like Doc was wantonly risking the lives of bystanders in order to get a shot at Hammy; if that's the same attack hanzo66 is describing, then I'm at a loss to understand lisiecki's vehemence.

lisiecki
2009-06-09, 11:51 PM
That's hardly a reasonable expectation of most people. Remember, Billy wasn't the type to expect Hammer to watch his blog, and certainly not the type to imagine someone picking on him for the sake of it.

That is the problem with putting private information out in public as a blog.
You shouldn't be putting information on a blog, if there's even one person you dont want knowing.

If you anounce that your going to use your freeze ray and give a time and location, dont be suprised when your archfoe is there waiting for you.
Also if you talk about the girl your "In love" with, and do your laundry with, dont be suprised when she starts dating said archfoe, and and he picks on you about it.

Why wouldn't Billy expect Hammer to pick on him for the sake of picking on him. Hammer IS a jackass.



But lisiecki's post (Doc attacked Hammy in a public park full of children!) made it sound like Doc was wantonly risking the lives of bystanders in order to get a shot at Hammy; if that's the same attack hanzo66 is describing, then I'm at a loss to understand lisiecki's vehemence.

There Hammer was signing autographs. There was a long line of children there. Billy pulled a gun. Hammer beat him up.

This MAY just be me, but when known criminals pull guns at parks full of children, I'm OK with people beating them up.

Also, its an example of how hammer Dosn't just go looking for Billy to do something illegal, Billy has, at least once, gone after Hammer.

I find it hard to thing there relationship as Hammer picking on Billy, when Billy has, at least once, gone after Hammer

Philistine
2009-06-10, 09:53 AM
There Hammer was signing autographs. There was a long line of children there. Billy pulled a gun. Hammer beat him up.

This MAY just be me, but when known criminals pull guns at parks full of children, I'm OK with people beating them up.

Sure, but what if the gun the criminal pulls is a Nerf gun (http://www.hasbro.com/nerf/n-strike/)? Or a squirt gun (http://www.hasbro.com/supersoaker/en_US/)? The thing about "known criminals pull[ing] guns at parks full of children" IRL is that it risks injuring or killing said children; does Doc's "non-lethal but would make Hammer weak" ray gun really pose the same kind of threat? Really?

Green Bean
2009-06-10, 10:50 AM
Sure, but what if the gun the criminal pulls is a Nerf gun (http://www.hasbro.com/nerf/n-strike/)? Or a squirt gun (http://www.hasbro.com/supersoaker/en_US/)? The thing about "known criminals pull[ing] guns at parks full of children" IRL is that it risks injuring or killing said children; does Doc's "non-lethal but would make Hammer weak" ray gun really pose the same kind of threat? Really?

The sequence of events is;

1) Hammer notices Horrible standing in line.
2) Hammer jumps over to Horrible.
3) Horrible pulls the weapon.
4) It fails.
5) Hammer breaks weapon and punches Horrible.

Honestly, I'm not seeing any fault with Hammer's reasoning here; if your arch-nemesis shows up at a public event, he's probably not there to get your autograph. Also, for such an introvert, Horrible really seems to love the camera.

lisiecki
2009-06-10, 12:13 PM
Sure, but what if the gun the criminal pulls is a Nerf gun (http://www.hasbro.com/nerf/n-strike/)? Or a squirt gun (http://www.hasbro.com/supersoaker/en_US/)? The thing about "known criminals pull[ing] guns at parks full of children" IRL is that it risks injuring or killing said children; does Doc's "non-lethal but would make Hammer weak" ray gun really pose the same kind of threat? Really?

Dude your TOTALLY right.

When a mad scientist super villain pulls out a gun in public, Hammer should ASK about it first.

He should have waited until AFTER Billy had fired the weapon before doing something.

Looking at Billy's DEATH RAY and FREEZE RAY we can clearly see that he patterns them after real-life fire arms, and that guns that look like NERF or squirt guns would be of no threat to anyone at all.

The only proff we have that it was an "antimuscle ray" is that Billy TOLD Hammer that it was a weapon that would only affect Hammer AFTER it failed.
Hammer REALLY should have trusted him. I mean we ALL see how that the trans-matter worked, even if it WAS an antimuscle ray, Billy NEVER gets things really, really wrong.
So YA i think it REALLY posed some kind of threat
Really

Flame of Anor
2009-06-10, 02:02 PM
I think some of you are forgetting Dr. Horrible's motivation. He wants to make the world a better place, no matter what means he has to use. He thinks that the world is a terrible place, as witnessed here:


Any one with half a brain/Could spend their whole life howling in pain/.../Listen close to everybody's heart/And hear that breaking sound/Hopes and dreams are shattering apart/And crashing to the ground

and so, as he says,


The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it.

You may take issue with his methods, but his motivation is (at least at first) good. As for his methods, he never tries to kill anyone except, at the end, Captain Hammer. When he gets his letter from Johnny Snow, one of the "heroes", he refuses to fight him in the park, showing more moral fiber.

As for Captain Hammer, there is a legitimate reason to kill him--Dr. Horrible could not let Hammer keep interfering with his plans and still move on to ruling the world. As Spock would say, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one", especially when the one is a self-centered jerk who doesn't care about anything but himself. I'm not condoning his attempted murder, but if one accepts the conquer-the-world paradigm, it's the least-death surgical strike.

And, yes, Horrible does descend into evil. The key word here, however, is descend. He was not always evil, and this evil is not as deeply rooted as in some. He recognizes his evil, but hates himself for it and struggles against it. He never completely loses himself to it. In fact, he hesitates and doesn't pull the trigger on Hammer. We don't see him killing anyone afterwards, though I'm afraid he is less likely to hesitate.


In short, I believe that Dr. Horrible is an idealist whose methods--though he tries to control them--are drawing him, possibly inevitably, down the path to being someone he hates and never intended to be.

lisiecki
2009-06-10, 03:30 PM
I think some of you are forgetting Dr. Horrible's motivation. He wants to make the world a better place, no matter what means he has to use. He thinks that the world is a terrible place, as witnessed here:


I'm sorry, but i can't aggre with that.
Yes trying to change the world CAN be a good thing, but Billy never explains what parts he wants to change.
It would seem that a man who wants to change the world for the better, would be more concerned for the care of the homeless.

Doctor Doom is a villain who uses villainy to bring attention to the suffering of his people, and to get his mother out of hell.

This is a good motivation for doing the things he does.

Magneto is a villain who is trying to bring about equal rights for mutants.

This is a good reason for what he does.

If Billy had as set of bullet points, I may aggre with him, but change, for the sake of change, isnt something i can back.

I don't want people to get the wrong idea.
I ENJOY the musical.
It has a fun story, the songs are enjoyable (well for me, but i know nothing about musicals).

It's just the "Billy is a good person, and sympathetic character I can empathic with" statements i hear from alot of people scare the crap out of me

hanzo66
2009-06-10, 06:15 PM
Billy is not meant to be a "Good Guy" so to say. His motivation to better the world is mostly misanthropy and incredible dislike of society in general. Thus one of the reasons he likes Penny is that she's one of the few genuinely decent people of the world in his eyes.

lisiecki
2009-06-10, 09:24 PM
Billy is not meant to be a "Good Guy" so to say. His motivation to better the world is mostly misanthropy and incredible dislike of society in general. Thus one of the reasons he likes Penny is that she's one of the few genuinely decent people of the world in his eyes.

I know that.
You know that.

What drives me nuts is when other people don't know that and some how try to paint Billy as a tragic victim of Hammer, and he and Penny as true romantic loves.

If you can build a transportation ray
Even a BAD one, im fairly sure you can get a pretty good job at anythink tank on earth

Joran
2009-06-11, 11:10 AM
If you can build a transportation ray
Even a BAD one, im fairly sure you can get a pretty good job at anythink tank on earth

This is only true in a world without superheroes and supergeniuses. Something like his freeze ray or Johnny Snow's ice ray would be priceless technology in our world, but it may be fairly common in the Dr. Horrible universe.

lisiecki
2009-06-11, 03:06 PM
This is only true in a world without superheroes and supergeniuses. Something like his freeze ray or Johnny Snow's ice ray would be priceless technology in our world, but it may be fairly common in the Dr. Horrible universe.

TRUE,

But even then i have to assume that it takes a smarter than average person to pull it off.
So I DO assume her could get a fairly good job, somewhere.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-11, 09:47 PM
I'm sorry, but i can't aggre with that.
Yes trying to change the world CAN be a good thing, but Billy never explains what parts he wants to change.
It would seem that a man who wants to change the world for the better, would be more concerned for the care of the homeless.

He doesn't say specifically, but he does say the general idea. And he is concerned for the homeless, but he is more concerned with the bigger picture. See the following:


Penny: You're not really interested in the homeless, are you?
Dr. Horrible: No, I am, but...it's a symptom. You're treating a symptom while the disease rages on, consumes the human race. The fish rots from the head, so they say. So I'm thinking, why not cut off the head?
Penny: [pause] Of the human race?
Dr. Horrible: It's not a...perfect metaphor.

Statements like this above, "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it", and, to some extent, the lyrics of Laundry Day and My Eyes, convince me that his intention is making the world a better place.




It's just the "Billy is a good person, and sympathetic character I can empathic with" statements i hear from alot of people scare the crap out of me

Well, I think his methods are certainly dubious, and his motivation may not be so pure by the end, but at the beginning all the evidence points to the conclusion that Dr. Horrible wants to fix what's wrong with the world, although by taking the "conquer it" shortcut.

lisiecki
2009-06-11, 10:19 PM
Well, I think his methods are certainly dubious, and his motivation may not be so pure by the end, but at the beginning all the evidence points to the conclusion that Dr. Horrible wants to fix what's wrong with the world, although by taking the "conquer it" shortcut.

Above some one said that the evidence points to Billy becoming a villian after being picked on in high school.

Are we going to project an entire back story on to Billy before the thread is done?

This may just be me, but I don't trust the modviation of a man who spends the night stalking a girl he does his laundry with.

Philistine
2009-06-11, 11:14 PM
You're not supposed to trust Dr. Horrible's motivations! He's a villain, of the card-carrying, ominously-laughing, mustache-twirling variety. Of course, he's pretty sad as villains go. On the other hand, Captain Hammer - a violent, stupid, sadistic, petty bully - is even worse at being a hero than Billy is at being a villain.

The tipping point for me, the first time I watched, was the confrontation in the laundromat during Act 2. Up until then, I was pretty sure I was supposed to be rooting for Billy, but I really hadn't seen any particular reason why. Hammy gave me a reason, with the whole "She's givin' it up, she's givin' it up hard. Because I get what you want" speech. That cleared things up nicely.

Green Bean
2009-06-12, 03:13 AM
Well, I think his methods are certainly dubious, and his motivation may not be so pure by the end, but at the beginning all the evidence points to the conclusion that Dr. Horrible wants to fix what's wrong with the world, although by taking the "conquer it" shortcut.

Well, who wouldn't trust a vague, unspecified plan to conquer the world and solve the problems one man sees with it? Especially one coming from someone who knows so much about people.

Zencao
2009-06-12, 07:54 AM
If we judge the characters based on the Batman philosophy of "It's not who I am, but what I do that defines me" disregarding whatever crap they talk and focusing on what they actually do, Captain Hammer is by far more sympathetic than Dr Horrible. Like it or not, he's a hero, like it or not, the people of the city all appreciate what he does, the news-anchors are goddamn crying when he's out of commission.

What does Billy do? He stalks Penny, he steals, he builds super-weapons and tries to join the evil league of evil. Read the goddamn name people, he wants to be evil, not do good. He has admirable qualities sure, a respect for human life for instance. Though only in the first two acts.

Now why does Billy stop his 'no killing' creed? Because Captain hammer is having consensual sex with a woman who likes Hammer more than Billy. Whom Billy never even asked out. So apparently the moral is "Murder is o.k if you want to steal the guy's girlfriend."

Most people in this thread seem to be singing the same song, "But captain Hammer is a jerk!" Yes, he's built around the stereotype of the jock who made fun of you in high school and actually had the stones to ask out the cute girl you just stared at on the bus, grow up. Joss is using an age-old technique of making the character he wants the audience to support the most relatable, and by condoning his extreme actions, basically tells the audience that this is how they should feel too. And because he's flattering the audience, well he must be right!

Let me compare this scenario with another popular character, Dr House. Dr House is an *******, no-body disputes that, yet he has legions of supporters who will immediately leap to his defense in any action he takes (Even at one point, sacrificing the life of a baby).

So why does "House is an ******* but accomplishes good" work, when "Captain Hammer is an ******* but accomplishes good" doesn't? Especially when we see that House is far worse than Hammer?

Because they convey different messages to the audience. House says "You can respect someones skills and the good they do even if they have a bad personality" while Dr Horribles blog says "It's o.k to be a whiny loser, murder that guy who's going out with the girl you like! It's not your fault, it's societies!"

...Wow I got a bit ranty there :( sorry.

P.S. "Oh he just wants to take over the world to solve the problems in society! He say's so himself!" Yeah, you know who else said that? Hitler.

Yeah that's right, I'm playing Godwins law.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard1.jpg

Point is, you don't take the word of the person trying to take over the world as gospel when they say it's for your own good.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-12, 08:57 AM
Yeah that's right, I'm playing Godwins law.


It is generally accepted that whoever is the first to play the "Hitler" card has lost the argument as well as any trace of respect.

You seem to have lost the fight. Just like Hitler! :smalltongue:

Joran
2009-06-12, 10:59 AM
Now why does Billy stop his 'no killing' creed? Because Captain hammer is having consensual sex with a woman who likes Hammer more than Billy. Whom Billy never even asked out. So apparently the moral is "Murder is o.k if you want to steal the guy's girlfriend."


To be fair, we don't know whether or not Dr. Horrible was going to pull the trigger; he ended up hesitating and maybe with the power of Penny, he wasn't going to shoot.


"It's not who I am, but what I do that defines me" disregarding whatever crap they talk and focusing on what they actually do, Captain Hammer is by far more sympathetic than Dr Horrible. Like it or not, he's a hero, like it or not, the people of the city all appreciate what he does, the news-anchors are goddamn crying when he's out of commission.

Well, Captain Hammer did in fact try to kill Dr. Horrible with his death ray. I'd argue that's more evil than anything Dr. Horrible did up to that point.

P.S. Your rant was good up until you Godwined it. Please don't do that again.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-12, 11:46 AM
Well, Captain Hammer did in fact try to kill Dr. Horrible with his death ray. I'd argue that's more evil than anything Dr. Horrible did up to that point.

Yes, in fact. Captain Hammer had no legitimate reason for killing Dr. Horrible. He could just as easily have captured him and given him to the police, but no, he wanted his revenge. Dr. Horrible had no other option for getting Captain Hammer out of the way.

Zencao
2009-06-12, 12:00 PM
Yes, in fact. Captain Hammer had no legitimate reason for killing Dr. Horrible. He could just as easily have captured him and given him to the police, but no, he wanted his revenge. Dr. Horrible had no other option for getting Captain Hammer out of the way.

Okay, what?

Hammer never used lethal force until Billy forced his hand, as soon as Billy stopped being just a thief and started threatening lives lethal force is authorized. Probably not in the 'execution style' Hammer was doing it in, but it's hardly proof that hammer is more evil than Billy.

How did Billy have 'no other option'!? Oh noes! Hammer might open a new homeless shelter with his first long-time girlfriend that he's actually becoming attached to on an emotional level! MUST KILL.

Even if you think Billy is justified in trying to 'defeat' captain hammer and steal his girlfriend, it's been shown repeatedly that Billy is working on stunning and freezing devices (the muscle relaxant example from before).

No, Billy committed assault with a deadly weapon. (Assault in the legal definition of causing a person to fear immediate use of unlawful force) and attempted murder (Men's rea of creating the death ray, Actus Reus of going in and pointing it in his face, until Hammer KO'd him)

Zencao
2009-06-12, 12:01 PM
P.S. Your rant was good up until you Godwined it. Please don't do that again.

You do know the Hitler part was a joke? And not actually part of the argument? I used a card for God's sake! :P

EDIT DOS: Just realised that the image didn't work, go to the Godwins law page! That's the image I meant to use! :(

This is gonna turn like youtube where you can't tell if someones being stupid as a joke or just out of daftness :'(

EDIT: Ouch double post, my bad!

Joran
2009-06-12, 12:13 PM
Hammer never used lethal force until Billy forced his hand, as soon as Billy stopped being just a thief and started threatening lives lethal force is authorized. Probably not in the 'execution style' Hammer was doing it in, but it's hardly proof that hammer is more evil than Billy.

I'd disagree with this. There's a difference between killing in self-defense with no choice and stepping on the chest of a helpless person and firing a weapon at his head. Dr. Horrible was no longer a threat, turn him in to the police.


You do know the Hitler part was a joke? And not actually part of the argument? I used a card for God's sake! :P

It's hard to tell tone in the Internet and I've seen the reference used seriously in that manner many times. So, nope, I initially didn't see it as a joke, my apologies.

Zencao
2009-06-12, 12:18 PM
I'd disagree with this. There's a difference between killing in self-defense with no choice and stepping on the chest of a helpless person and firing a weapon at his head. Dr. Horrible was no longer a threat, turn him in to the police.

It's hard to tell tone in the Internet and I've seen the reference used seriously in that manner many times. So, nope, I initially didn't see it as a joke, my apologies.

Aye, that is suspect, but it's hardly one sided, Dr Horrible did literally the exact same thing to Hammer just moments ago, yet no-one notes that they're BOTH as bad as each other, and Penny is the victim of two equally bad idiots.

And no need for apologies, if the card had shown up it probably would have been clearer XD

Joran
2009-06-12, 12:27 PM
Aye, that is suspect, but it's hardly one sided, Dr Horrible did literally the exact same thing to Hammer just moments ago, yet no-one notes that they're BOTH as bad as each other, and Penny is the victim of two equally bad idiots.

And no need for apologies, if the card had shown up it probably would have been clearer XD

Agreed, Penny is the true victim in all of this. Dr. Horrible didn't fire though; he still might have but that's open to interpretation. My personal interpretation is that if the stun lasted 10 more seconds, Penny would have spoken up and Dr. Horrible wouldn't have shot him.

So, did Penny say the absolutely worst possible thing to Dr. Horrible as her last words?

Zencao
2009-06-12, 12:30 PM
Agreed, Penny is the true victim in all of this. Dr. Horrible didn't fire though; he still might have but that's open to interpretation. My personal interpretation is that if the stun lasted 10 more seconds, Penny would have spoken up and Dr. Horrible wouldn't have shot him.

So, did Penny say the absolutely worst possible thing to Dr. Horrible as her last words?

If only Penny had more personality :(

And I personally think the worst words would have been...

'I'm a man'

Connington
2009-06-12, 12:59 PM
How did Billy have 'no other option'!? Oh noes! Hammer might open a new homeless shelter with his first long-time girlfriend that he's actually becoming attached to on an emotional level! MUST KILL.

I think you forgot the Evil League of Evil.

"He saw the operation you tried to pull today
But your humiliation means he still votes nay!
And now assassination is just the only way!
There will be blood, it be yours, so go kill someone
-signed Bad Horse"

Billy had to kill someone to get into the ELE, and it's heavily implied that he'd be killed if he failed. Look, I'm not a fan of Billy as a person. He's a stalker who hasn't gotten over the fact that he was picked on in high school. But he did have some motivation to kill Hammer beyond rivalry over Penny.

Zencao
2009-06-12, 01:01 PM
I think you forgot the Evil League of Evil.

"He saw the operation you tried to pull today
But your humiliation means he still votes nay!
And now assassination is just the only way!
There will be blood, it be yours, so go kill someone
-signed Bad Horse"

Billy had to kill someone to get into the ELE, and it's heavily implied that he'd be killed if he failed. Look, I'm not a fan of Billy as a person. He's a stalker who hasn't gotten over the fact that he was picked on in high school. But he did have some motivation to kill Hammer beyond rivalry over Penny.

O.k, I'll give you that :P You win this round!!

But still, murdering to join an evil organization is hardly sympathetic motivation...

BHodges3
2009-06-12, 04:17 PM
I think you forgot the Evil League of Evil.

"He saw the operation you tried to pull today
But your humiliation means he still votes nay!
And now assassination is just the only way!
There will be blood, it MIGHT be yours, so go kill someone
-signed Bad Horse"

Billy had to kill someone to get into the ELE, and it's heavily implied that he'd be killed if he failed. Look, I'm not a fan of Billy as a person. He's a stalker who hasn't gotten over the fact that he was picked on in high school. But he did have some motivation to kill Hammer beyond rivalry over Penny.

Fixed? Or is it "could"?

Joran
2009-06-12, 05:00 PM
He saw the operation you tried to pull today

But your humiliation means he still votes ďneighĒ

And now assassination is just the only way

There will be blood, it might be yours

So go kill someone

Signed: Bad Horse

Directly from the Dr. Horrible website.

I thought the Bad Horse parts were sheer brilliance. "So make the bad horse gleeful, or heíll make you his mare" Great line :)

lisiecki
2009-06-12, 07:15 PM
I think you forgot the Evil League of Evil.

"He saw the operation you tried to pull today
But your humiliation means he still votes nay!
And now assassination is just the only way!
There will be blood, it be yours, so go kill someone
-signed Bad Horse"



Yes, Billy tried to get in tot he Evil League.
And because he wants to get in to the Leage, some one else should have to die, VERY sympathetic.


He's a stalker who hasn't gotten over the fact that he was picked on in high school.

I must have missed that part

HamHam
2009-06-12, 11:00 PM
The way I see it, Billy is a basically decent person pushed to evil by circumstances. Which makes him sympathetic.

Hammer is a jerk who happens to be on the side of the law. He's "good" only because he has always been able to get what he wants by being so. But when the going got tough, he got going.

Billy on the other hand would not have crossed the line and become a real villain without Hammer's help/interference.

The story is a basic tragedy. Billy achieves his goal (joining the League) but loses what was truly important along the way, making it a hollow victory. Hammer fails as a true hero. And the audience is launched into depression.

lisiecki
2009-06-13, 02:12 AM
The way I see it, Billy is a basically decent person pushed to evil by circumstances. Which makes him sympathetic.


Yes...

I know that I OFTEN feel sorry for Billy.
the way that Penny MADE him stalk her was horrible.

It really is to bad Billy and Penny never confronted it directly.
After all since Penny made Billy stalk her.
I can already see the lyrics to Billys song "Why do you make me hit you?"

I have to assume if a stalker can be sympathetic
That some one who beats his friends is to

Green Bean
2009-06-13, 02:24 AM
The way I see it, Billy is a basically decent person pushed to evil by circumstances. Which makes him sympathetic.

It's very tragic the way 'circumstances' pushed him to apply to join the ELE. Also, the way 'circumstances' pushed him to try to take over the world. Also, the way the 'circumstances' pushed him to try to 'improve' the world by conquering it, instead of the million other rational options. Also, the way 'circumstances' forced him to follow Penny around, and fall in love with her despite never exchanging more than two words. Also, the way 'circumstances' forced him to try and build a freeze ray instead of just trying to learn to be sociable.

HamHam
2009-06-13, 02:26 AM
Yes...

I know that I OFTEN feel sorry for Billy.
the way that Penny MADE him stalk her was horrible.

It really is to bad Billy and Penny never confronted it directly.
After all since Penny made Billy stalk her.
I can already see the lyrics to Billys song "Why do you make me hit you?"

I have to assume if a stalker can be sympathetic
That some one who beats his friends is to

a) I'm pretty sure staring at her at the dry-cleaners does not qualify as stalking.

b) His inability to interact with Penny is, from a certain perspective, caused by media propagation of gender roles and social ostracism and various things like that.


It's very tragic the way 'circumstances' pushed him to apply to join the ELE.

Society has rejected him and thus he acts out by rejecting society.


Also, the way 'circumstances' pushed him to try to take over the world. Also, the way the 'circumstances' pushed him to try to 'improve' the world by conquering it, instead of the million other rational options.

If you have people with super powers running around and mad scientist is a viable profession, trying to take over the world is a pretty rational option.


Also, the way 'circumstances' forced him to try and build a freeze ray instead of just trying to learn to be sociable.

You can't just "learn to be sociable". You're talking about deep-seated emotional issues which you can't just magically decide to change anymore than you can lift yourself off the ground by your feet. It doesn't work that way.

Green Bean
2009-06-13, 05:29 AM
Society has rejected him and thus he acts out by rejecting society.

Ah, of course. I must've missed that part of the story.


If you have people with super powers running around and mad scientist is a viable profession, trying to take over the world is a pretty rational option.

Care to elaborate?


You can't just "learn to be sociable". You're talking about deep-seated emotional issues which you can't just magically decide to change anymore than you can lift yourself off the ground by your feet. It doesn't work that way.

And the reason Captain Hammer's a jerk is because of his deep-seated emotional issues. I don't see how any of that makes you a "basically decent person".

Zencao
2009-06-13, 09:59 AM
The way I see it, Billy is a basically decent person pushed to evil by circumstances. Which makes him sympathetic.

As said, Billy wasn't forced to become a criminal. To put it in an allegory to real life, it's as if a person who wants to join the mafia is asked by them to kill someone, hardly being 'forced' into it.

Hammer is a jerk who happens to be on the side of the law. He's "good" only because he has always been able to get what he wants by being so. But when the going got tough, he got going.

And by you're admission Billy is on the side of evil because thats how he gets what he wants. The only difference is that Hammer actually helps people. And no, he didn't 'get going', he had NEVER felt pain before. You can't even imagine what it would be like to never feel pain, and then you're first experience being an explosion to the face. And if you actually listen to the ending, when he's crying to the therepist he's saying how it 'hurts inside' and 'in [his] heart'. He's mourning Penny.

Billy on the other hand would not have crossed the line and become a real villain without Hammer's help/interference.

And what did Hammer do to make him a murderer? Go into a consensual relationship with a girl he liked, go out with her, treat her nice, and actually develop feelings he hadn't felt for a girl. And then he had the gaul to boast about it. What does Billy boast about later? He boasts about terrifying a room full of people at a charity event and then murdering the person opening the home for the homeless.

The story is a basic tragedy. Billy achieves his goal (joining the League) but loses what was truly important along the way, making it a hollow victory. Hammer fails as a true hero. And the audience is launched into depression.

Actually, a tragedy is a noble character falling from a great height due to a fatal flaw, ending in his death. Billy starts off living in a crappy apartment with a social life below that of Moist, clamoring to join an evil organization way out of his league, still unable to talk to the girl he does laundry with. Then a hero starts going out with the girl he likes, so he tries to murder him, accidentally murders the girl, and then gets into the league and becomes successful. Hardly the norm of tragedy.


a) I'm pretty sure staring at her at the dry-cleaners does not qualify as stalking.

How about when he stalked Hammer and Penny while they were out on dates? He was carrying a bush to hide behind and everything!

b) His inability to interact with Penny is, from a certain perspective, caused by media propagation of gender roles and social ostracism and various things like that.

O.k that's just reaching. Not talking to girls isn't society's fault, a lot of shy guys would like to think that, but sadly it's an individual issue.

Society has rejected him and thus he acts out by rejecting society.

No, he's rejected society. He could easily get a job, he's obviously very intelligent, I mean come on, he's a doctor. It's not soceity's fault he chose a PHD in horribleness when he could have just become an MD and cured cancer, or any other scientist to help the world.

If you have people with super powers running around and mad scientist is a viable profession, trying to take over the world is a pretty rational option.

And if you have people with guns and handcuffs running around, mafioso is a viable profession, running the city through crime is a rational option. Nothing about the world is different except the scale, he IS STILL A CRIMINAL.

You can't just "learn to be sociable". You're talking about deep-seated emotional issues which you can't just magically decide to change anymore than you can lift yourself off the ground by your feet. It doesn't work that way.

Yes it does. That's exactly how it works. There is no other way to become sociable, there's no injection or anything, you just have to bite your lip and learn, learning on your OWN is hard, but Dr Horrible could have easily gone out with Moist more to learn how to talk to girls, the double dating scene seems quite alive in supervillain town

My replies bolded, sorry if I sound snotty, I'm a bit hung-over.

EDIT: Something that popped into my head in the 'tragedy' example, isn't Hammer the tragic hero by the normal definition?

Noble character at a great height: The city's hero, always on top, get's all the women, then steal's the supervillain's girlfriend, who makes him go to charity org's, and as his first longtime girlfriend has an affect of giving him a new look on life despite his old prejudices against the homeless. Then, through the fatal flaws of his arrogance and generally daftness, he provokes a villain a step too far, and it literally blows up in his face, killing his girlfriend and for the first time making him experience both physical and emotional pain.

Sure he doesn't die, but it's still pretty close ne?

lisiecki
2009-06-13, 04:08 PM
a) I'm pretty sure staring at her at the dry-cleaners does not qualify as stalking.


I aggre

But following her to dinner with hammer
Following them to the pond the next day.

During "On the Rise" is stalking.

Am i watching some special version of the blog that has "On the rise" and the scene where Horrible mentions hammer watching his blog, that one one else gets?

This special ed also seems to lack some sort of special back story where Billy is picked on in high school, rejected by the woman he loves, and is rejected by all of society.

There is no doubt in my mind that Horrible is going to upset the status qou. He has the tacit knowledge to talk turkey with the tall foreheads in the ELoE he alone can think the unthinkable. The question is will they put him on the turkey farm?

Flame of Anor
2009-06-14, 01:30 AM
Good work holding up the pro-Horrible side of the debate, HamHam. I'll be back in force after some sleep.

lisiecki
2009-06-14, 02:17 AM
O.K. I'm done with this for now.
With TWO people on the other side of the argument forgetting key sections of the movie, there's really no point for me to go on.

Pointing out parts of the musical, only exist if everyone is up to speed on what ACTUALLY happened, and the first song of Act II is a big one.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-14, 10:52 AM
The way I see it, Billy is a basically decent person pushed to evil by circumstances. Which makes him sympathetic.

As said, Billy wasn't forced to become a criminal. To put it in an allegory to real life, it's as if a person who wants to join the mafia is asked by them to kill someone, hardly being 'forced' into it.

It's not really like that. Billy intended to get into the E.L.E. without killing anyone. When he failed at this, he didn't decide "Instead of just giving up, I will kill someone"; the E.L.E. implied pretty blatantly that if he did not kill someone, they would kill him. We know that Billy is one who concentrates on the bigger picture; in that situation, with someone going to die anyway, he could not rationalize it being him--he, who was going to fix the world. It would not be logical for him to let himself be killed. Sure, media heroes often value their own lives below that of any one innocent bystander, but 1) he's not trying to be a media hero, he's trying to use whatever means necessary to fix the world, and 2) it's not even logical for a hero to do that, it just makes the audience like him.



Hammer is a jerk who happens to be on the side of the law. He's "good" only because he has always been able to get what he wants by being so. But when the going got tough, he got going.

And by you're admission Billy is on the side of evil because thats how he gets what he wants. The only difference is that Hammer actually helps people. And no, he didn't 'get going', he had NEVER felt pain before. You can't even imagine what it would be like to never feel pain, and then you're first experience being an explosion to the face. And if you actually listen to the ending, when he's crying to the therepist he's saying how it 'hurts inside' and 'in [his] heart'. He's mourning Penny.

First off, I readily concede that it was not cowardice to break down when experiencing one's first pain.

When you say "Billy is on the side of evil because that[']s how he gets what he wants", yes, he is doing what he is doing because that's how he gets what he wants. You're leaving out the fact that what he wants is to make the world a better place. While Hammer does help people, and I'm not suggesting he's evil, he is probably doing it mostly because of his selfishness. How do you know he's mourning the loss of Penny qua person and not Penny qua trophy? For that matter, how do you know he's talking about Penny at all? He could be talking about being defeated for the first time.



Billy on the other hand would not have crossed the line and become a real villain without Hammer's help/interference.

And what did Hammer do to make him a murderer? Go into a consensual relationship with a girl he liked, go out with her, treat her nice, and actually develop feelings he hadn't felt for a girl. And then he had the gaul to boast about it. What does Billy boast about later? He boasts about terrifying a room full of people at a charity event and then murdering the person opening the home for the homeless.

I might have to give this one to Zencao, though I don't like it. While Captain Hammer was being a jerk--as usual--taunting Billy, etc., it wasn't really beyond the pale, as selfish jerks go. It's really Billy who's driving the whole situation, for good or ill.



The story is a basic tragedy. Billy achieves his goal (joining the League) but loses what was truly important along the way, making it a hollow victory. Hammer fails as a true hero. And the audience is launched into depression.

Actually, a tragedy is a noble character falling from a great height due to a fatal flaw, ending in his death. Billy starts off living in a crappy apartment with a social life below that of Moist, clamoring to join an evil organization way out of his league, still unable to talk to the girl he does laundry with. Then a hero starts going out with the girl he likes, so he tries to murder him, accidentally murders the girl, and then gets into the league and becomes successful. Hardly the norm of tragedy.

Your definition of tragedy is quite admirable, Zencao. Since no one but Penny dies, though, and no one is arguing that she's the tragic hero, we can leave that criterion out for the moment. We're left with "a noble character falling from a great height due to a fatal flaw". True, Captain Hammer has fallen from a great height due to a fatal flaw. But is he noble? "I'm gonna give Penny the night of her life, just because you want her. And I get what you want." Reeeeeal knight-in-shining-armor, this one. Also, if we're talking about social/power position, then yes, it is Hammer that fell. If we're talking about moral position, then it's unquestionably Billy who's falling from the high ground.



a) I'm pretty sure staring at her at the dry-cleaners does not qualify as stalking.

How about when he stalked Hammer and Penny while they were out on dates? He was carrying a bush to hide behind and everything!

Well, yeah, that is stalking, but it was partly so that the song would work right.



b) His inability to interact with Penny is, from a certain perspective, caused by media propagation of gender roles and social ostracism and various things like that.

O.k that's just reaching. Not talking to girls isn't society's fault, a lot of shy guys would like to think that, but sadly it's an individual issue.

I'm not sure how this, from either perspective, is even relevant.



Society has rejected him and thus he acts out by rejecting society.

No, he's rejected society. He could easily get a job, he's obviously very intelligent, I mean come on, he's a doctor. It's not soceity's fault he chose a PHD in horribleness when he could have just become an MD and cured cancer, or any other scientist to help the world.

I don't think we know if society has rejected him. We don't know everything that's happened to him--it's certainly possible that something like that happened.



If you have people with super powers running around and mad scientist is a viable profession, trying to take over the world is a pretty rational option.

And if you have people with guns and handcuffs running around, mafioso is a viable profession, running the city through crime is a rational option. Nothing about the world is different except the scale, he IS STILL A CRIMINAL.

Yes, he is still a criminal, BUT YOU'RE LEAVING OUT HIS MOTIVATION AGAIN. Does the mafioso want to run the town to make it a better place? Ha, as if! Billy's intention is to rule the world so he can make it a better place.



You can't just "learn to be sociable". You're talking about deep-seated emotional issues which you can't just magically decide to change anymore than you can lift yourself off the ground by your feet. It doesn't work that way.

Yes it does. That's exactly how it works. There is no other way to become sociable, there's no injection or anything, you just have to bite your lip and learn, learning on your OWN is hard, but Dr Horrible could have easily gone out with Moist more to learn how to talk to girls, the double dating scene seems quite alive in supervillain town

Pardon me if this isn't the case, Zencao, but this sounds like an extrovert talking. There are social difficulties, and then there are social difficulties. Some people, as you say, can just learn to be sociable. Other people cannot. Learn this, please.




O.K. I'm done with this for now.
With TWO people on the other side of the argument forgetting key sections of the movie, there's really no point for me to go on.

Pointing out parts of the musical, only exist if everyone is up to speed on what ACTUALLY happened, and the first song of Act II is a big one.

As Buckaroo Banzai once aptly said, "Don't be mean; we don't have to be mean, 'cause, remember, no matter where you go, there you are."

lisiecki
2009-06-14, 11:38 AM
As Buckaroo Banzai once aptly said, "Don't be mean; we don't have to be mean, 'cause, remember, no matter where you go, there you are."

Oh, I don't think I'm being mean. Artemician and HamHam have no knowledge of scenes that are, for my perceptive to work, essential.

If these guys have some sort of uber-special edition with these parts edited out, its not like i can really present a relivent opinion

Flame of Anor
2009-06-14, 12:18 PM
If these guys have some sort of uber-special edition with these parts edited out, its not like i can really present a relivent opinion

Don't try to tell me that wasn't snarky. :smallwink:

lisiecki
2009-06-14, 01:18 PM
Don't try to tell me that wasn't snarky. :smallwink:

A bit perhaps. But it dosn't change the fact that the first song of Act II is an important one to the storyline, that no one seems to remember

Flame of Anor
2009-06-14, 03:25 PM
A bit perhaps. But it dosn't change the fact that the first song of Act II is an important one to the storyline, that no one seems to remember

I never said you were incorrect.

Zencao
2009-06-14, 03:50 PM
It's not really like that. Billy intended to get into the E.L.E. without killing anyone. When he failed at this, he didn't decide "Instead of just giving up, I will kill someone"; the E.L.E. implied pretty blatantly that if he did not kill someone, they would kill him. We know that Billy is one who concentrates on the bigger picture; in that situation, with someone going to die anyway, he could not rationalize it being him--he, who was going to fix the world. It would not be logical for him to let himself be killed. Sure, media heroes often value their own lives below that of any one innocent bystander, but 1) he's not trying to be a media hero, he's trying to use whatever means necessary to fix the world, and 2) it's not even logical for a hero to do that, it just makes the audience like him.

You know there's this thing in law called the conspirators clause, it means that conspiring with someone makes that person guilty of whatever crime the other commits. Billy, wanted to conspire with the EVIL goddamn league of EVIL. You can't argue that Billy thought his organization would be filled with vegan pacifists. Billy wants to help bad horse, to help all the villains in that organization, that is called guilt by association. And yes, it IS as bad a Billy doing it himself, he's condoning it and supporting it, it may not be his hand on the trigger, but he's still actively seeking to become part of the problem and not the solution. If you're in the army you're as responsible as any other soldier for what happens in that war. And if you know the horrible things that are being done, and join without a second thought? Well it show's pretty clear where your moral compass points.


When you say "Billy is on the side of evil because that[']s how he gets what he wants", yes, he is doing what he is doing because that's how he gets what he wants. You're leaving out the fact that what he wants is to make the world a better place. While Hammer does help people, and I'm not suggesting he's evil, he is probably doing it mostly because of his selfishness. How do you know he's mourning the loss of Penny qua person and not Penny qua trophy? For that matter, how do you know he's talking about Penny at all? He could be talking about being defeated for the first time.



Billy: I want to be an achiever... like Bad Horse.
Penny: The Thoroughbred of Sin?
Billy: I meant Gandhi...

I'm just gonna say my point out right here, Billy doesn't want to help save the world. It's pretty obvious from everything he does that 'saving the world' is just his justification for his massive inferiority complex. He thinks that becoming a villain will make him a big man, make him worthy. He wants respect and power. All his lines about the 'status quo being uneven' is him saying it's uneven because HE isn't in power. He never says what his plan is to help the world beyond 'Well I want to rule it'. It's pretty obvious that he doesn't have any plans, considering how he cuts off whenever the subject is brought up. No, Billy's thought process is "I must be being kept down by the man" rather than any intrinsic weakness. The world isn't a bad place because there are so many homeless people out there, the world is a bad place because Billy is unhappy. Billy doesn't have the girl, Billy Billy Billy. This is perfectly illustrated in 'On The Rise', Penny spends the song singing about how everything is starting to look up, how the world is becoming right again. What does Billy sing about? How everyone must be miserable because he is, and how 'Penny doesn't seem to care that soon the dark in me is all that will remain'. Why should she? Nothing bad has happened to him that she knows of, he hasn't told her his feelings, so why is it the worlds fault? Everything related to his Super-villainy he brings on himself, he is ALWAYS the instigator in that department, while I can understand Billy being a somewhat tragic figure, as soon as he puts on those goggles he loses all sympathy for me.

Your definition of tragedy is quite admirable, Zencao. Since no one but Penny dies, though, and no one is arguing that she's the tragic hero, we can leave that criterion out for the moment. We're left with "a noble character falling from a great height due to a fatal flaw". True, Captain Hammer has fallen from a great height due to a fatal flaw. But is he noble? "I'm gonna give Penny the night of her life, just because you want her. And I get what you want." Reeeeeal knight-in-shining-armor, this one. Also, if we're talking about social/power position, then yes, it is Hammer that fell. If we're talking about moral position, then it's unquestionably Billy who's falling from the high ground.

I'll concede this point gladly. My definition of Tragedy is based off my English course, and when we studied genre we focused on Shakespearean tragedy, the modern tragedy is thankfully a lot more complex than that.



Well, yeah, that is stalking, but it was partly so that the song would work right.

You can't blame it on being a technical necessity, the songs are shaped around the events of the story, not the other way around. If Billy wasn't a stalker they could have easily done it in a variety of different ways. It's a conscious decision by the writer, and you can't disregard that as being 'for the song'



I'm not sure how this, from either perspective, is even relevant.

I think it started as something along the line of 'It's not Billy's fault because...



I don't think we know if society has rejected him. We don't know everything that's happened to him--it's certainly possible that something like that happened.


While it is certainly possible that it happened, it is still completely irrelevant and pure speculation, and therefore about as valid as me blaming the events on space monkeys controlling their minds.


Yes, he is still a criminal, BUT YOU'RE LEAVING OUT HIS MOTIVATION AGAIN. Does the mafioso want to run the town to make it a better place? Ha, as if! Billy's intention is to rule the world so he can make it a better place.

Billy wants to rule the world to Rule the world, this part I've covered above. Have you ever read the book 'A Simple Plan'? It's the story of a man who has quite pure motivations, a better life for his family and unborn baby. He finds 4 million dollars in a crashed plane, surely with his motivation, keeping it would hardly be 'evil'? He only wants to help. He sticks by this ethic for the entire book, justifying his actions throughout in a similar way to Billy and in the end decides that it didn't matter why he wanted to do those things, but the fact he did them. Murder is still murder no-matter your motivation, world domination is still fascism, and stealing is still stealing.



Pardon me if this isn't the case, Zencao, but this sounds like an extrovert talking. There are social difficulties, and then there are social difficulties. (??) Some people, as you say, can just learn to be sociable. Other people cannot. Learn this, please.

Hardly, I'm quite shy actually. But it is simply ignorant to say "Some people are just born that way" in regards to being sociable. It goes against almost every principle of sociology to state that people can exist as intrinsically shy and irremovable from that state, and then to justify any crimes they commit by saying that it's not their fault that they cannot change their attitudes. 'Learn this'? I don't mean to be insulting, but it is very ignorant to state such a fallacy and then imply that I am the one arguing an uneducated view.


I don't want to end on that sour note, so I'll just say that this entire topic has proved to be rich in well-thought out debate, and really is a testament to the Blog in terms of an art-form to provoke such divergent yet equally-justified interpretation.

lisiecki
2009-06-14, 04:15 PM
He's a stalker who hasn't gotten over the fact that he was picked on in high school. But he did have some motivation to kill Hammer beyond rivalry over Penny.

But its important to remember that he only got picked on in highschool after he killed a bus full of children, and was found having sex with a goat

Zencao
2009-06-14, 04:20 PM
But its important to remember that he only got picked on in highschool after he killed a bus full of children, and was found having sex with a goat

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/DarkTremor/motivatorBirdWat.jpg

lisiecki
2009-06-14, 04:22 PM
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/DarkTremor/motivatorBirdWat.jpg

Well

Other people are completely fabricating a back story for Billy that isn't even implied in the blog.

So I figured I would make up some back story as well

Zencao
2009-06-14, 04:30 PM
Well

Other people are completely fabricating a back story for Billy that isn't even implied in the blog.

So I figured I would make up some back story as well

I don't think he was being literal you know...

HamHam
2009-06-14, 05:54 PM
It's not really like that. Billy intended to get into the E.L.E. without killing anyone. When he failed at this, he didn't decide "Instead of just giving up, I will kill someone"; the E.L.E. implied pretty blatantly that if he did not kill someone, they would kill him. We know that Billy is one who concentrates on the bigger picture; in that situation, with someone going to die anyway, he could not rationalize it being him--he, who was going to fix the world. It would not be logical for him to let himself be killed. Sure, media heroes often value their own lives below that of any one innocent bystander, but 1) he's not trying to be a media hero, he's trying to use whatever means necessary to fix the world, and 2) it's not even logical for a hero to do that, it just makes the audience like him.

You are both wrong.

"This appeared as a moral dilemma
Cause at first it was weird though I swore to eliminate
The worst of the plague that devoured humanity
Itís true I was vague on the ĎHowí
so how can it be that you have shown me the light?

Itís a brand new day
And the sun is high
All the birds are singing
That youíre gonna die

How I hesitated
Now I wonder why
Itís a brand new day

All the times that you beat me unconscious Iíll forgive
All the crimes Incomplete, listen honestly Iíll live
Mr. Cool, Mr. Right, Mr. Knowitall is through
Now my futureís so bright and I owe it all to you Who showed me the light

Itís a brand new me
Iíve got no remorse
Now the waterís rising but I know the course
Iím gonna shock the world
Gonna Show Bad Horse
Itís a Brand New Day

And Penny will see the evil me
Not a joke not a dork not a failure
And she may cry but her tears will dry
When I hand her the keys to a shiny new Australia.

Itís a brand new day
Yeah the sun is high
All the angels sing
Because youíre gonna die

Go ahead and laugh
Yeah Iím a funny guy
Tell everyone goodbye
Itís a brand new day"

Billy was set against killing anyone because, like I said before, he's a decent person at heart and has moral character. But then Hammer basically said "I'm going to sleep with Penny for no other reason but to piss you off" and he snaps and decides that, hey, he can kill Hammer and not feel bad about it.

------------------------

Something people seem to be missing is that Captain Hammer was the one that killed Penny, not Dr. Horrible. And that is what drives Billy to fully transform into Dr. Horrible and become truly evil. So Hammer created Dr. Horrible.

------------------------

Finally, it is important to note the dynamic each character has in regards to society. Captain Hammer is one of the winners, who are oblivious and unconcerned by the plight of others. Penny and Billy both see that the world is broken, corrupt, and generally a pretty sucky place, but Penny reacts with optimize while Billy with pessimism. This is a legitimate struggle. When you really think about all the evil in the world, it is no easy task to remain hopeful about the prospects.

Zencao
2009-06-14, 06:08 PM
Finally, it is important to note the dynamic each character has in regards to society. Captain Hammer is one of the winners, who are oblivious and unconcerned by the plight of others. Penny and Billy both see that the world is broken, corrupt, and generally a pretty sucky place, but Penny reacts with optimize while Billy with pessimism. This is a legitimate struggle. When you really think about all the evil in the world, it is no easy task to remain hopeful about the prospects.

Yet to me the only characters who seemed to make progress improving the world were Captain Hammer and Penny. Note that almost every time we see Hammer ourselves is when he's facing off with his arch-nemesis, if you took any hero an watched them only fighting their foes they'd come off a lot more assholish.

Hammer is definitely flawed, he's sexist and homelessphobic(??) and generally quite a moron, yet Penny still insists that he's 'Sweet' after they start going out, calling him 'layered' which of course Dr Horrible refutes. Yet how can he? He's only interacted with him in a villain-on-hero scenario, is there really going to be anything taking place except violence? Except Hammer ruining his plans?

Also to note, when Penny and Hammer initially start going out... Hammer has no idea who she is, or who Billy is yet. He's watched Horrible blog, but I doubt he knew Penny was 'the girl from the laundromat' on just seeing her in the street. Hammer is immediately distracted, letting Billy get away with the wonderflonium (Which from Billy's apparent failure as a villain, we can assume hasn't happened before). They then start serenading each other.

In 'The Perfect Story' he sings about how it's 'so nice' and showing his sexism, 'just might sleep with the same girl twice', showing that he had at least originally intended only to sleep with Penny and then leave her. Probably just to spite Billy.

Then in 'Everyone's a hero' he sings about how Penny has shown him how to show compassion and be kind, and taught him there's more to being a hero than muscles.

Then it all goes kaput when Billy bursts in to assassinate him.

I'm starting to see a pattern of Billy being his own worst enemy here, his reliance on playing the villain only worsening the situation for everyone, when he could probably accomplish more as Billy (note how after he started actually talking to Penny she warmed up to him, and nearly kissed him even). If he had tried to get Penny back the old-fashioned way instead of going kill-crazy a happy ending may even have occurred.

But then again, maybe that's the real tragedy of it?

HamHam
2009-06-14, 09:32 PM
Yet to me the only characters who seemed to make progress improving the world were Captain Hammer and Penny.

Captain Hammer is just keeping The Powers that Be in power. The one thing he does that actually helps someone, the homeless shelter, is because of Penny.

Penny is the only source of goodness in the show, and that's why she's the one who has to die. The moral is that the world is too cruel to allow human kindness to survive.


In 'The Perfect Story' he sings about how it's 'so nice' and showing his sexism, 'just might sleep with the same girl twice', showing that he had at least originally intended only to sleep with Penny and then leave her.

That line implies it was not his choice. Most likely he usually gets dumped as soon as they realize he's actually an idiot.

Zencao
2009-06-14, 09:54 PM
Captain Hammer is just keeping The Powers that Be in power. The one thing he does that actually helps someone, the homeless shelter, is because of Penny.

That's what I was saying, Penny's influence does change Hammer, albeit minutely. And what powers that be is he keeping in power? He's basically a police officer except with superpowers, unless you believe he was up on the grassy knoll?

Penny is the only source of goodness in the show, and that's why she's the one who has to die. The moral is that the world is too cruel to allow human kindness to survive.

Huh, I took the moral to be that revenge and taking out your frustration on the world as an antagonist makes you just that, an antagonist who can only succeed in hurting the cause of good.

That line implies it was not his choice. Most likely he usually gets dumped as soon as they realize he's actually an idiot.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with our interpretations of that line then.

Again, my replies bolded.

tyckspoon
2009-06-14, 10:50 PM
Yet to me the only characters who seemed to make progress improving the world were Captain Hammer and Penny. Note that almost every time we see Hammer ourselves is when he's facing off with his arch-nemesis, if you took any hero an watched them only fighting their foes they'd come off a lot more assholish.


Most heroes stop beating up the villains when they're no longer a threat. Billy is absurdly easy to subdue; just grab him and hold him firmly until the cops show up to gather him. But everything we see is Hammer beating him up after he is already under control. At the Wonderflonium heist, Hammer slams Billy into the hood of the van three times with no apparent reasoning beyond "hey, here's this van, and I've got this geek in my hands..." The highlight reel of Billy being foiled by Hammer contains basically shots of Hammer gratuitously smacking Billy around for the sake of a photo-op. At the most extreme, Hammer attempts to kill Billy outright ("Captain Hammer... threw a car at my head." We have no reason to believe that, or similarly lethal attempts at 'apprehension', hasn't happened before) even before Billy attempts to return the favor. Frankly, if I were in Billy's shoes I probably would have tried to cripple or kill Hammer in self-defense long before that point (well, I probably would have given up on the super-villainy thing first, but you get the idea.) Hammer doesn't just look like an *******. Billy's right about him.

I don't think Hammer was really changing, either. Even his song isn't really about compassion; it's about glorifying himself. At best, Penny channeled his ego and narcissism to more positive ends. If he had really learned anything about "the deltoids of compassion" and "the abs of being kind"... he probably wouldn't have attempted to execute Billy.

paddyfool
2009-06-15, 12:01 AM
Hammer is definitely flawed, he's sexist and homelessphobic(??) and generally quite a moron

You missed "egomaniac" (so is Horrible, of course, but it's a little less befitting a hero).



They then start serenading each other.

Correction - they both start serenading Hammer. Seriously, every time he sings, the jerk's singing about himself.


I'm starting to see a pattern of Billy being his own worst enemy here, his reliance on playing the villain only worsening the situation for everyone, when he could probably accomplish more as Billy (note how after he started actually talking to Penny she warmed up to him, and nearly kissed him even). If he had tried to get Penny back the old-fashioned way instead of going kill-crazy a happy ending may even have occurred.

But then again, maybe that's the real tragedy of it?

Agreed on that, at least.

Let's see - in pseudo-D&D alignment terms, Hammer is Lawful Jerk-off, Horrible is Emo Evil, and Penny Sweet Good. It's amazing it works as well as it does.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 12:15 AM
Billy: I want to be an achiever... like Bad Horse.
Penny: The Thoroughbred of Sin?
Billy: I meant Gandhi...

I'm just gonna say my point out right here, Billy doesn't want to help save the world. It's pretty obvious from everything he does that 'saving the world' is just his justification for his massive inferiority complex...it's pretty obvious that he doesn't have any plans...the world isn't a bad place because there are so many homeless people out there, the world is a bad place because Billy is unhappy.

Yes, Billy probably does have an inferiority complex, and probably also clinical depression, and I agree that they are driving the story. However, the world really is a bad place. His inferiority complex/depression are not making him see delusional misery, it's real and just made clearer.


Everything related to his Super-villainy he brings on himself, he is ALWAYS the instigator in that department, while I can understand Billy being a somewhat tragic figure, as soon as he puts on those goggles he loses all sympathy for me.

I agree that the Dr. Horrible persona does a pretty bad job of upholding Billy's moral principles. Perhaps becoming Dr. Horrible was a bad idea, but I believe it was done with good intentions.


While it is certainly possible that it happened, it is still completely irrelevant and pure speculation, and therefore about as valid as me blaming the events on space monkeys controlling their minds.

I'm not sure it's pure speculation. After all, how many supervillains do you know that 1) are not completely evil/weren't always evil and 2) did not undergo some psychologically traumatizing event? Also, he sings "There's no happy ending/So they say/Not for me, anyway". Not conclusive, but I certainly see a hint of societal rejection--or at least perceived societal rejection.


Murder is still murder no-matter your motivation, world domination is still fascism, and stealing is still stealing.

I would posit that, for almost any act, there is a situation where it is justified--even murder, even world domination. It would be hubristic of me to assume I could tell when those were, and it's probably hubristic of Billy. But it is my firm conviction that Billy truly believes his taking the supervillain path to be justified.


It goes against almost every principle of sociology to state that people can exist as intrinsically shy and irremovable from that state, and then to justify any crimes they commit by saying that it's not their fault that they cannot change their attitudes. 'Learn this'? I don't mean to be insulting, but it is very ignorant to state such a fallacy and then imply that I am the one arguing an uneducated view.

I didn't say it justified any crimes. I didn't say it made it OK. But it is a fact of life that some people's brains are fundamentally different from others' in that they are more directed inward, which both limits their social capacity and focuses their intelligence, as we see in Billy. If you're wondering why I'm so sure, I'm like that, too. And, also, please don't misuse the word "fallacy". It means a logical error, not a falsehood.


Yet to me the only characters who seemed to make progress improving the world were Captain Hammer and Penny. Note that almost every time we see Hammer ourselves is when he's facing off with his arch-nemesis, if you took any hero an watched them only fighting their foes they'd come off a lot more assholish.

Most heroes stop beating up the villains when they're no longer a threat. Billy is absurdly easy to subdue; just grab him and hold him firmly until the cops show up to gather him. But everything we see is Hammer beating him up after he is already under control...At the most extreme, Hammer attempts to kill Billy outright.

And, besides these despicable displays of debasement, Captain Hammer comes off just as 'assholish' as ever when he's 1) talking to Billy in the laundromat and 2) singing his hero song when he doesn't even think Billy's there.


I'm starting to see a pattern of Billy being his own worst enemy here, his reliance on playing the villain only worsening the situation for everyone, when he could probably accomplish more as Billy (note how after he started actually talking to Penny she warmed up to him, and nearly kissed him even). If he had tried to get Penny back the old-fashioned way instead of going kill-crazy a happy ending may even have occurred.

I think you're on to something here. If Billy had given up Dr. Horrible, he could have had Penny. But he didn't realize that that was his choice until it was too late for him to choose just-Billy. He deluded himself into thinking he could have his cake and eat it too. Then again, who knows what his choice would have been if he had known earlier? (I'm leaving out her death for the moment, as that wasn't an inevitable part of his transition to Dr. Horrible.) It's possible that he would have felt his duty to the world was to persevere in his plan of conquest and reform. And I don't know if he would have been right.


But then again, maybe that's the real tragedy of it?

No arguments here.


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with our interpretations of that line then.

I have agree with HamHam on this one. Hammer says "I just might sleep with the same girl twice; they say it's better the second time" etc. This strongly implies that he's never slept with the same girl twice, and it stretches credibility to think that every girl he's ever slept with was a one-night stand to be nasty to an enemy.

I don't think Hammer was really changing, either. Even his song isn't really about compassion; it's about glorifying himself. At best, Penny channeled his ego and narcissism to more positive ends. If he had really learned anything about "the deltoids of compassion" and "the abs of being kind"... he probably wouldn't have attempted to execute Billy.

Nor would he have called the homeless people "smells like poo" and "bunch of scary, alcoholic bums".

Also, thank you, everyone, for being such reasonable debaters. :smallsmile:

HamHam
2009-06-15, 12:35 AM
Captain Hammer is Lawful Neutral.

Billy is Chaotic Good.

Penny is Neutral Good.

Anyway, if people are going to accuse Billy of "stalking" then we should really be calling Captain Hammer's behavior what it is: police brutality.

lisiecki
2009-06-15, 02:13 AM
Anyway, if people are going to accuse Billy of "stalking" then we should really be calling Captain Hammer's behavior what it is: police brutality.

Ok,


So following Penny during the first song of act II
thats NOT stalking?

what word would you use to describe it?

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 08:24 AM
Ok,

So following Penny during the first song of act II
thats NOT stalking?

what word would you use to describe it?

He just said that it was stalking (but Captain Hammer was also using police brutality).

mangosta71
2009-06-15, 09:34 AM
That line implies it was not his choice. Most likely he usually gets dumped as soon as they realize he's actually an idiot.

See, that was my take on that line, too. I figured he was such a narcissistic ass that the girls were dumping him. Never even considered Zen's pov. And the next line being what it is reinforces the idea that he has tried for seconds and always gotten shot down.

lisiecki
2009-06-15, 09:37 AM
He just said that it was stalking (but Captain Hammer was also using police brutality).

No, He said
if people are going to accuse Billy of "stalking

He didn't say that Billy is stalking her, he said that people say that he is stalking her.

Zencao
2009-06-15, 09:41 AM
Nor would he have called the homeless people "smells like poo" and "bunch of scary, alcoholic bums".

Keyword for me there was 'scary', but maybe I'm just a sucker for making as many people sympathetic as possible. It seems to be that Captain Hammer is 'Corporate tool' in the sense that his entire existence is based around being a superhero, and whether that's his choice or the governments could mean completely different things. If Hammer was raised/created by the government as an enforcer, it stands to reason that he would actually be afraid of homeless people, as they would be something completely alien to him, being raised with an over-inflated sense of entitlement and jurisdiction that's now left him socially crippled.

But that's complete fan-wank so I'll refrain from bringing that into it XD

paddyfool
2009-06-15, 11:38 AM
Captain Hammer is Lawful Neutral.


Agreed, although I prefer my term ("lawful jackass")



Billy is Chaotic Good.


Hold the phones, what? I could clearly see a case for Chaotic Neutral, in that he tries not to hurt people too much with his crimes etc., but Good? Seriously? Billy lies, steals, menaces people, indulges revenge fantasies, and ultimately (sort of) kills, despite having had a problem with it before. And regardless of the whole Good/Evil or Lawful/Chaotic axis, his primary descriptor remains Emo.



Penny is Neutral Good.


Agreed.



Anyway, if people are going to accuse Billy of "stalking" then we should really be calling Captain Hammer's behavior what it is: police brutality.

Billy was stalking her, although he managed to avoid letting her notice and get scared by it, and Captain Hammer did freely indulge in what was basically police brutality.

Halna LeGavilk
2009-06-15, 12:58 PM
I like Dr. Horrible. He reminds me a lot of myself. At the beginning and middle, anyway. It's a good show. Good music.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 01:30 PM
He didn't say that Billy is stalking her, he said that people say that he is stalking her.

OK, well, I say that he was stalking them. Though note that the fact that he's stalking them--not her alone--could mean that he's just trying to be protective, though in a kind of creepy way.




Billy is Chaotic Good.
Hold the phones, what? I could clearly see a case for Chaotic Neutral, in that he tries not to hurt people too much with his crimes etc., but Good? Seriously? Billy lies, steals, menaces people, indulges revenge fantasies, and ultimately (sort of) kills, despite having had a problem with it before. And regardless of the whole Good/Evil or Lawful/Chaotic axis, his primary descriptor remains Emo.

The question of Billy's alignment reminds me, funnily enough, of Firefly, where Mal is clearly actually CG, but is trying and failing to be CN. Billy, conversely, is CN, trying and failing to be CG.

lisiecki
2009-06-15, 02:34 PM
Hold the phones, what? I could clearly see a case for Chaotic Neutral, in that he tries not to hurt people too much with his crimes etc., but Good? Seriously? Billy lies, steals, menaces people, indulges revenge fantasies, and ultimately (sort of) kills, despite having had a problem with it before. And regardless of the whole Good/Evil or Lawful/Chaotic axis, his primary descriptor remains Emo.

IT would be nice if there was some sort of discription...

Lets see, Billy does whatever he can get away with. he is out for herself, pure and simple. he sheds no tears for those he kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. he has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make him any better or more noble. On the other hand, he doesnít have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 03:11 PM
Lets see, Billy does whatever he can get away with. he is out for herself, pure and simple. he sheds no tears for those he kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. he has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make him any better or more noble. On the other hand, he doesnít have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

I honestly have no idea where half of this is coming from.
"Billy does whatever he can get away with. he is out for herself, pure and simple." No, he does not. Judging from his ease in constructing the death ray, he could have killed Captain Hammer a hundred times over and gotten away with it. And (assuming you mean himself) I just don't know where people are getting this. I understand your arguments that "he should not be doing this" or "it's his fault" or even "he's a bad person". Billy justifies his plan to rule the world many times over. He's not necessarily right that he should rule it, but it is certain that he thinks he does. This is in no sense "pure and simple".
he sheds no tears for those he kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. Those he kills? Billy has killed no one. No. One. He meant to kill Captain Hammer as a means to his ultimate goal. We have no evidence whatsoever that he ever killed or intended to kill anyone for "profit, sport, or convenience". When he's robbing the bank at the end, he doesn't even have the death ray with him! He's waving around a miniaturized freeze ray, when it would have been just as easy to bring the death ray. And "no tears"? When Penny dies--which is partly Captain Hammer's fault, anyway--DON'T TELL ME he doesn't care.
"he has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make him any better or more noble." Yes. That makes him Chaotic.
"On the other hand, he doesnít have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has." Yes, that would be because he's not evil.

I have to assume that this is a bad day for you or something, because I just don't see how these arguments make any sense.

Joran
2009-06-15, 03:23 PM
I have to assume that this is a bad day for you or something, because I just don't see how these arguments make any sense.

He's doing what he did before, which is fabricating elements of the story. I think he's fed up with people having unsubstantiated opinions and is just acting out. Quote below:


Well

Other people are completely fabricating a back story for Billy that isn't even implied in the blog.

So I figured I would make up some back story as well

P.S. Interestingly enough... Is Dr. Horrible evil at the end? The only crime and villainy we see from him after Penny's death is him robbing a bank and is associating with the Evil League of Evil, but it's hard to tell without more information.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 03:26 PM
He's doing what he did before, which is fabricating elements of the story. I think he's fed up with people having unsubstantiated opinions and is just acting out. Quote below:

Huh. You could be right. I think that would count as trolling, so, if that's the case, please stop, lisiecki. It's not funny.

lisiecki
2009-06-15, 03:27 PM
He's doing what he did before, which is fabricating elements.

Yep.

What EXACTLY did i fabricate, other than the bus and the goat thing?


Connington decided that he got picked on in High School
HamHam forgot the start of Act II
Artemician forgot the Freeze ray thing.

what I did, was copy and paste the SRD's Description for neutral evil

Those people ARN'T trolling, but quoting the SRD IS trolling?

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 04:05 PM
Yep.

What EXACTLY did i fabricate, other than the bus and the goat thing?


Connington decided that he got picked on in High School
HamHam forgot the start of Act II
Artemician forgot the Freeze ray thing.

what I did, was copy and paste the SRD's Description for neutral evil

Those people ARN'T trolling, but quoting the SRD IS trolling?

The bus and goat thing are the only fabrications I remember, true.

Making mistakes isn't trolling. Even putting forward theories without supporting evidence isn't trolling. Quoting the SRD isn't trolling, either. But what you did is put Billy's name into the SRD quote, and not tell anyone it was an SRD quote. It looked just like a badly-formed argument for Billy being evil.

mangosta71
2009-06-15, 04:11 PM
He has raised a couple of good points during the discussion, but agreed, this wasn't one of them.

The fact that Dr. H doesn't have the death ray during the bank heist at the end suggests that, to paraphrase Captain Reynolds, after the pain of Penny's death went away he went back to what he was before. Possibly embittered a little, but not really evil over all.

Connington
2009-06-15, 04:48 PM
OK, well, I say that he was stalking them. Though note that the fact that he's stalking them--not her alone--could mean that he's just trying to be protective, though in a kind of creepy way.

Note the picture of Penny he holds while singing "Brand New Day". It was clearly taken while she was out walking, probably not with Captain Hammer. And the fact that he has her laundromat schedule memorized. It's pretty obvious that he follows her around even when Hammer isn't around. Not quite "Sparklepire breaks in and watches you sleep" level of creepy, but same ballpark.

Also, to those criticizing my "bullied in high school" comment, I'm (mostly) being metaphorical. It's pretty obvious that Billy considers himself to be bullied and kept down by the jocks of the world, ala Captain Hammer. And taking into account that one comic where Hammer recommends reporting nerds and geeks as potential super-villains, I'm guessing he's gone through a rough adolescence. Still, mostly being rhetorical.

Zencao
2009-06-15, 06:40 PM
I Dr Horrible evil at the end? Definitely. Apart from all the stuff above about conspiracy and guilt by association I mentioned above, we can pretty easily guess from all the imagery of the new uniform, his stony demeanor and his taking a seat at the head table of the league that yes, Billy is now unequivocally evil.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 07:30 PM
I Dr Horrible evil at the end? Definitely. Apart from all the stuff above about conspiracy and guilt by association I mentioned above, we can pretty easily guess from all the imagery of the new uniform, his stony demeanor and his taking a seat at the head table of the league that yes, Billy is now unequivocally evil.

Evil? ...yes, probably. Unequivocally evil? I don't think so. What was the last second of the Blog for, if not to show us that "just-Billy" is still--repressed--inside Dr. Horrible, and not liking what he's doing?

Zencao
2009-06-15, 08:35 PM
Evil? ...yes, probably. Unequivocally evil? I don't think so. What was the last second of the Blog for, if not to show us that "just-Billy" is still--repressed--inside Dr. Horrible, and not liking what he's doing?

Hmm, true, but he looks so damn defeated. I doubt Billy's coming out anytime soon unless there's some really major event. Which will undoubtedly be in the sequel that's meant to be coming out.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 09:57 PM
Hmm, true, but he looks so damn defeated. I doubt Billy's coming out anytime soon unless there's some really major event. Which will undoubtedly be in the sequel that's meant to be coming out.

QFT. Yay sequel!

Zencao
2009-06-15, 10:04 PM
QFT. Yay sequel!

I totally heard it may be a feature-length deal. How much would that rock?

Flame of Anor
2009-06-15, 10:55 PM
I totally heard it may be a feature-length deal. How much would that rock?

I heard the same too. It would rock as much as Olympus Mons has rocks! :smallbiggrin:

HamHam
2009-06-15, 11:15 PM
Keyword for me there was 'scary', but maybe I'm just a sucker for making as many people sympathetic as possible.

Everyone is sympathetic once you truly know them.


Hold the phones, what? I could clearly see a case for Chaotic Neutral, in that he tries not to hurt people too much with his crimes etc., but Good? Seriously? Billy lies, steals

Both Chaotic acts, not evil ones.


menaces people

Using Intimidate does not change your alignment.


indulges revenge fantasies

And...


ultimately (sort of) kills

Except that he doesn't.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-16, 12:23 AM
I totally heard it may be a feature-length deal. How much would that rock?

An amount directly and inversely proportional to how much involvement a major studio has in it. Seriously, 90% of its charm is the small-budget bunch-of-friends vibe it has. If a big-name film studio gets its paws on the Horrible IP, it's almost guaranteed to collapse into a massive pile of fail.

Unless it's Pixar - Pixar can't screw anything up - but an animated Dr. Horrible would just look silly.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-16, 12:50 AM
An amount directly and inversely proportional to how much involvement a major studio has in it. Seriously, 90% of its charm is the small-budget bunch-of-friends vibe it has. If a big-name film studio gets its paws on the Horrible IP, it's almost guaranteed to collapse into a massive pile of fail.

Unless it's Pixar - Pixar can't screw anything up - but an animated Dr. Horrible would just look silly.

Serenity didn't suck. I think Joss Whedon knows how to keep his input on top.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-16, 01:33 AM
Unless they pull a Buffy and don't bother consulting Joss at all.

Zencao
2009-06-16, 03:31 AM
An amount directly and inversely proportional to how much involvement a major studio has in it. Seriously, 90% of its charm is the small-budget bunch-of-friends vibe it has. If a big-name film studio gets its paws on the Horrible IP, it's almost guaranteed to collapse into a massive pile of fail.

Unless it's Pixar - Pixar can't screw anything up - but an animated Dr. Horrible would just look silly.

Dr Horrible in The Incredibles style? How would that be silly? :P

Avilan the Grey
2009-06-16, 05:53 AM
Dr Horrible in The Incredibles style? How would that be silly? :P

Epic Crossover Bonanza!!

...Anyway, I really liked DH. I agree with Shamus Young though; he didn't see that coming... (about the ending).

My take on the whole thing is that I enjoy the comedy in it. But also the fact that of the main characters only Captain Hammer is one-dimensional. And an ass. Basically, as someone wrote above, he is Superdickery personified. He is also not Good, he is more True Neutral (he just happens to fight on the good side, because that lets him beat people up without going to jail. Plus Groupies).

DH himself? He is, for a supervillain, very realistic. He is definitely not Good either, but he is a far better person than Hammer. His motivations are Neutral, his goal is Evil, but in the rest of his life (outside the DH stuff) he is Good.

Flame of Anor
2009-06-16, 08:58 AM
Dr Horrible in The Incredibles style? How would that be silly? :P

I would miss Nathan Fillion's facial expressions tremendously...

Halna LeGavilk
2009-06-16, 09:02 AM
I think the point of DHSAB is to look at it not from Dr. Horrible's point of view, but from Billy's. It helps to think of Billy has the guy before the death of Penny.

See, Billy is the average Joe with a bit too much intelligence to the extreme. Ever notice how people with slightly higher than average tend to be a bit more amoral than average. Not always true of course, but they are the minority. Anyway, not the point. Take this man, and put him in a world with superheroes and supervillians, a world where anybody with half a brain can build death rays. Have some jerk get his girl, have the jerk beat him up every other day, what do you think will happen in a society where consequences on the good-evil axis are doubled cause of the power level?

And I don't think he's stalking them, I know in the night scene, he's just walking along and happens to find them in the homeless shelter eating. I'm not sure about the day scene.

Finn Solomon
2009-06-16, 10:49 AM
Everyone is sympathetic once you truly know them.

Both Chaotic acts, not evil ones.

Using Intimidate does not change your alignment.


Why the heck are we using D&D standards to judge Billy's morality? Unless something escaped me and Dr. Horrible is actually his epic-level technomage, D&D rules shouldn't come into the equation.

Connington
2009-06-16, 11:38 AM
And I don't think he's stalking them, I know in the night scene, he's just walking along and happens to find them in the homeless shelter eating. I'm not sure about the day scene.

Yeah, he puts on a fake mustache so he can go in the homeless shelter and glare at the happy couple while pretending to feed the homeless. Real non stalking behavior.

Avilan the Grey
2009-06-16, 03:23 PM
I think the point of DHSAB is to look at it not from Dr. Horrible's point of view, but from Billy's. It helps to think of Billy has the guy before the death of Penny.

I did that by default; I did not think of watching it any other way.

Avilan the Grey
2009-06-16, 03:25 PM
Why the heck are we using D&D standards to judge Billy's morality? Unless something escaped me and Dr. Horrible is actually his epic-level technomage, D&D rules shouldn't come into the equation.

That is a very good question. Why do we (me too, see above) use something as retarded as the Alignment system of D&D to describe what's going on? :smallconfused:

Halna LeGavilk
2009-06-16, 09:08 PM
Yeah, he puts on a fake mustache so he can go in the homeless shelter and glare at the happy couple while pretending to feed the homeless. Real non stalking behavior.

Holy crap. How did you notice that? Okay, yeah, stalker-ish. Don't need the snarkiness though. *tongueclick* :smallwink:

It occurs to me that Billy has never really had a real romantic relationship, and doesn't really know how to go about trying to get Penny. It's more akin to the behavior of a 7th grade geek than an adult. Not trying to excuse his behavior. Just saying.

EDIT: Evidence, at 18:48 "...they are probably going to french kiss, or something." Shows a lack of knowledge about sexual relationships.


I did that by default; I did not think of watching it any other way.

I know, but I don't think everyone watched it that way.

lisiecki
2009-06-22, 10:12 AM
The bus and goat thing are the only fabrications I remember, true.

Making mistakes isn't trolling. Even putting forward theories without supporting evidence isn't trolling. Quoting the SRD isn't trolling, either. But what you did is put Billy's name into the SRD quote, and not tell anyone it was an SRD quote. It looked just like a badly-formed argument for Billy being evil.

...

Yes...

I can see the confusion...

I directly quoted a post that was talking about alignment issues.

My reply to that post, was a direct copy and paste of the SRD portion of alignment.

It makes MUCH more sense to directly post in a public forum that I may be trolling than to ask for clarification.