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ilovefire
2005-11-20, 07:24 PM
Yeah, my idea in the topic about the Occultist spawned it's way to a new, CON based caster class: The Cultist.

The Cultist
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any nonlawful, nongood alignment.
Weapon/Armor profiencies: Staves, Daggers, and Sickles. No armor profiencies.
BAB progression: As wizard
Will Save progression: High
Fort save progression: Low
Ref save progression: Low
Cultists are CON based casters. They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take nonlethal damage equal to the spell’s level, and they can only cast each spell once per day. They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.
Spell lists: As wizard. No material components necessary for spells. Can cast spells spontaneously.


Sound balanced? underpowered? overpowered? Just plain stupid?

The Glyphstone
2005-11-20, 07:28 PM
No material components necessary? Wheeee, a free Trap the Soul spell EVERY SINGLE DAY. ;D Better just make that "Receives Eschew Materials as a bonus feat" - ignoring all material components (and yes, I deliberately misunderstood it) is an Epic feat.

ilovefire
2005-11-20, 07:34 PM
Hmm... well, the whole thing about this class is that it expels magical energy from small open wounds in it's body. hence the taking non-lethal damage each time it casts a spell. and for spells like that... well, it explicitly says in the spell description that it imprisons the targets soul into a crystal. I'd say you'd need a crystal to imprison someone's soul into one.

somebodyelse
2005-11-20, 07:34 PM
I've heard of this idea before, or something very similar to it. I remember because I thought it was so cool when I came up with the idea of casting by causing subdual {or nonlethal or whatever you call it nowadays} damage to yourself, and then someone told me it'd been done before.

How come only cast each spell once per day?
What spells do they know?
Can they do like, Magic Missile, and then, like, Verik's Magical Projectile That Isn't Magic Missile?

ilovefire
2005-11-20, 07:38 PM
They can cast any spell they know once a day. without preperation. So yes, they could do that. and let's say that they know spells formt he Wizard/sorceror spell list, as a sorc.

ilovefire
2005-11-20, 10:50 PM
sorry for the double post, but here's a revised version of the Cultist.

The Cultist V2
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any nonlawful, nongood alignment.
Weapon/Armor profiencies: Staves, Daggers, and Sickles. No armor profiencies.
BAB progression: As wizard
Will Save progression: High
Fort save progression: Low
Ref save progression: Low
Cultists are CON based casters. They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take damage equal to three times the *spell’s level, and they can only cast each spell once per day. They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.
Spell lists: As wizard. No material components necessary for spells. Can cast spells spontaneously. For every 20gp worth of spell components (not spell focuses), you can opt to take 1 point of temporary Con damage, that gets restored at a rate of 1 point per day. Any spell components costing 19gp or less will be ignored. As a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can choose one spell that is one level higher than you can currently cast, and cast it at your current caster level. However, you take two points of temporary CON damage for each spell level. The CON damage returns at one point a day.
Known Spells: As sorcerer.
Spells per day: Equal to spells known.
Feats: Gains the Toughness feat at second level, and every four levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18 )

does it sound more balanced?

Yuki Akuma
2005-11-21, 08:19 AM
Shouldn't they have a high Fortitude save? Seeing as Constitution is their key ability score and all... Playing to their strengths and everything.

Perhaps their bonus spells should be based on a high mental ability score, though. There are a few spellcasters that use one ability score of save DCs and one for bonus spells...

Or don't they get bonus spells?

ILM
2005-11-21, 08:43 AM
As a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can choose one spell that is one level higher than you can currently cast, and cast it at your current caster level. However, you take two points of temporary CON damage for each spell level. The CON damage returns at one point a day.
That's a bad idea.

One, it's likely to be overpowered at some points where you get to cast spells you'd only have access to two levels later.

Two, it's dangerously exploitable when you hit level 17 and get level 9 spells. Epic spells at level 17 ?
From the SRD :
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
Three, it opens a can of worms you definitely don't want to play with in terms of PrC requirements (namely, all PrCs which require you to be able to cast spells of a certain level become accessible two levels earlier, provided there's no other limiting requirement such as skill ranks)

Four, by the RAW you can't cast a spell using a caster level lower than the minimum caster level of the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
Five, if they learn spells as a sorceror, how the hell are they casting spells a level higher than the max level they know ? They don't even know the spell in the first place. Or can they spontaneously cast any spell in existence of that level, until they level up and get normal access to that spell level (at which point they'd lose the ability to cast any spell, since they learn spells as a sorceror) ?

Sciurusaurus
2005-11-21, 09:06 AM
As a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can choose one spell that is one level higher than you can currently cast, and cast it at your current caster level. However, you take two points of temporary CON damage for each spell level. The CON damage returns at one point a day.


Perhaps make this an ability that allows the Cultist to cast a spell he/she doesn't know, but is on the spell list in exchange for Constitution damage. Thus, if the Cultist REALLY need a, say, feather fall spell, but doesn't know it, there is always the option of "burning" 2 Con to get it anyways.

Not sure how balanced this is, but it does solve all 5 points that ILM mentioned. It may require some additional balancing, probably some additional restrictions on use.

While you haven't specified much about the concept apart from being Constitution based, I do agree with Yuki Akuma.

The two main candidates for this is Wisdom and Charisma, I think. The choice would reflect whether it is the Cultist's innate will to change the world or the Cultist's force of personality that shapes the force that comes from the physical sacrifice.

Edit : Also, requiring two good stats is also a balancing factor for the Cultist, something I would consider especially if you like my version of casting unknown spells for Constitution damage.

Seffbasilisk
2005-11-21, 09:14 AM
No bonus spells? How's THAT supposed to work?

The burning con seems like a decent tradeoff to kill the munchkins. Just send goblin hordes. At a CR of 1/3 you could send thirty at a CR of 10. If they're spread out and not set up to easily be taken down with a few spells but make him cast over and over again...he might end up killing himself. And with the HP reduction that Con damage causes, he's startin' to really get hurtin'. Then they start hurling Javalins. At thirty rolls chances are you get a 20 or two. Thats one or two hits no matter what. You'll start breaking them down.

ILM
2005-11-21, 09:46 AM
The burning con seems like a decent tradeoff to kill the munchkins.
I don't think you'll need to kill the munchkins. IMO, the class is almost unplayable as it is. Having a bunch of 1/day spells when you know like 4 or 5 per level (tops) means you suck as a magic user, and your unimpressive BAB and saves, I assume, skills means you're too inept to do anything else. Yeah, you'll have oodles of HP (provided you don't do something stupid like use one of your abilities and lose Con) - enjoy being a tank. In fact, this is the role I see him filling the best : a tank with some battlefield control abilities (because offensive spells are just not going to work for you when you have so few). And that's supposing you can wear armor without ASF...

Lysander
2005-11-21, 09:52 AM
Don't mean to be Mr. Dictionary, but shouldn't the cultist be a divine caster?

gaymer_seattle
2005-11-21, 10:20 AM
i think arcane and divine maybe a moot difference by real world consideration. ask any uber-christian if an occultist should be arcane or divine. just make sure and wear some body armor.

the concept looks pretty cool, though i would lean towards a defined spell list like war mages and the ilk. avoid spells that have to do with spirits, etheral or astral events. heavy evoker choices, some abjuration and transmutation. no enchantment or divination outside of read and detect magic.


OR

non-lethal damage should be somewhat random too.

cantrips - 1 hp
1st - 1d4 hp
2nd - 1d6
3rd - 1d8
4th - 1d10
5th - 2d6
6th - 2d8
7th - 2d10
8th - 3d8
9th - 3d10

This will help stop someone from simply blowing 9th level spells all day long

ilovefire
2005-11-22, 03:51 PM
allright, taking everything said into account, i do believe that this cultist version should work.

The Cultist Version 3
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any nonlawful, nongood alignment.
Weapon/Armor profiencies: Staves, Daggers, and Sickles. No armor profiencies.
BAB progression: As wizard
Will Save progression: High
Fort save progression: Low
Ref save progression: Low
Cultists are CON based casters. They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take damage equal to a roll according to table: The Cultist. They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.
Spell lists: As wizard. No material components necessary for spells. Can cast spells spontaneously. You may cast spells that you do not know, however, you must take CON damage equal to the spell level times two. EX: If a Cultist is falling from a great height, and needs to cast the Feather Fall spell, but does not know it, may take CON damage equal to 2 to cast Feather Fall. CON damage returns at the rate of one point a day. However, because Cultists are generally of the willful sort, and they use a portion of their will to cast their spells, the DC of all spells cast is set by the WIS modifier, not the CON modifier.
Known Spells: As wizard, with banned schools Divination and Conjuration. They also may not take spells having to do with the astral plane, spirits, or ethereal events. They know bonus spells per level equal to the CON modifier they have.
Spells per day: as sorceror.
Feats: Gains the Toughness feat at second level, and every four levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18 )

Table: The Cultist

Cantrips - 1 hp
1st - 1d4 hp
2nd - 1d6
3rd - 1d8
4th - 1d10
5th - 2d6
6th - 2d8
7th - 2d10
8th - 3d8
9th - 3d10

ILM
2005-11-22, 06:02 PM
They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take damage equal to a roll according to table: The Cultist.

Spells per day: as sorceror
Just to be sure : they only get spells per day like a sorc, right ? The first quoted ง sounds a bit like they can cast their spells at will.


You may cast spells that you do not know
Of any level ? Could a level 1 cultist cast Wish ? (yes, he'd die in the process, but it's just an example, k ?)


They know bonus spells per level equal to the CON modifier they have.
You should rephrase that to something like 'the number of the cultist's bonus spell slots is based on his Con modifier', otherwise it sounds like a cultist with 34 Con has 12 bonus spell slots per spell level.

Other than that, I think it's playable now. Not my kind of class, but probably playable.

Cruiser1
2005-11-22, 06:37 PM
The Cultist shouldn't be able to cast spells above their level, as that would be too easy to abuse. You can easily get a Level 1 Cultist to cast Wish:

If casting does 2*spell level in CON damage, then you only need 19 or more CON to be able to cast Wish and live. Just play a Gnome (+2 CON) and max out your CON at character creation.

If casting a 9th level spell does 3d10 damage, then you potentially can do it only taking 3 damage. Get the team Cleric to cast all their Orisons as Virtue on you (+1 temporary hp) and related spells to guarantee yourself enough HP even at level 1.

Thomas
2005-11-22, 06:38 PM
Could a level 1 cultist cast Wish ? (yes, he'd die in the process, but it's just an example, k ?)

But with a Con bonus of +3, at level 6, he'd have no chance of dying casting a 9th level spell. That sounds... bad.

Sciurusaurus
2005-11-22, 06:54 PM
But with a Con bonus of +3, at level 6, he'd have no chance of dying casting a 9th level spell. That sounds... bad.


With a Con bonus of +3 (which is a Con of 16 or 17), he'd die from the 18 con damage the 9th level spell would cost :P

Edit : I agree to the concern I think you are having, namely that the option of casting any spell at any level is overpowered even with the Con damage. I think it is, and that it should be limitied to spells of appropriate levels (as in spells of the same level or lower as he would be able to cast normally).

ilovefire
2005-11-23, 12:25 AM
Just to be sure : they only get spells per day like a sorc, right ? The first quoted ง sounds a bit like they can cast their spells at will.

Let me elaborate. The number of spells they may cast per day is the same number a sorceror of the same level may cast. The only difference is they take damage from it as well. I understand that it was probably confusing. The other points are good as well, and have been taken into consideration. I hope this version will be the final one. But eh, probably not. Also, I have a few buddies on IRC that suggested some changes as well. Here it is, the CON based, self destructive caster class that IS: The Cultist!

The Cultist, Version 4
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any nonlawful, nongood alignment.
Weapon/Armor profiencies: Staves, Daggers, and Sickles. No armor profiencies.
BAB progression: As wizard
Will Save progression: High
Fort save progression: Low
Ref save progression: Low
Cultists are CON based casters. They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take damage equal to a roll according to table: The Cultist. They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.
Spell lists: As wizard. No material components necessary for spells. Can cast spells spontaneously. You may cast spells that you do not know, however, they must be of a level you can cast, and you must take CON damage equal to the spell level times two. EX: If a Cultist is falling from a great height, and needs to cast the Feather Fall spell, but does not know it, may take CON damage equal to 2 to cast Feather Fall. CON damage returns at the rate of one point a day. However, because Cultists are generally of the willful sort, and they use a portion of their will to cast their spells, the DC of all spells cast is set by the WIS modifier, not the CON modifier.
Known Spells: As wizard, with banned schools Divination and Conjuration. They also may not take spells having to do with the astral plane, spirits, or ethereal events. The number of the cultist's bonus spell slots is based on his Con modifier.
Spells per day: As Sorcerer.
Feats: Gains the Toughness feat at second level, and every four levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18 )
Special: At level one, the Cultist is only healed half as much from positive energy. At level three, they are only damaged half as much from negative energy. At level five, and again at level seven, the Cultist gains +2 CON.

Disclaimer: Characters that are healed by negative energies are also healed half as much from negative energy. Characters damaged by positive energies are damaged half as much from positive energies.

Disclaimer 2: Cure Minor Wounds has NO effect on a cultist, however, it WILL stabilize a dying one.

Table: The Cultist

Cantrips - 1 hp
1st - 1d4 hp
2nd - 1d6
3rd - 1d8
4th - 1d10
5th - 2d6
6th - 2d8
7th - 2d10
8th - 3d8
9th - 3d10

ILM
2005-11-23, 10:53 AM
The Cultist shouldn't be able to cast spells above their level, as that would be too easy to abuse. You can easily get a Level 1 Cultist to cast Wish:

If casting does 2*spell level in CON damage, then you only need 19 or more CON to be able to cast Wish and live. Just play a Gnome (+2 CON) and max out your CON at character creation.
You seem to forget that every time you lose 2 points of Con, you also lose 1 hp per level. Now tell me, is a level 1 cultist with 4+Con hp likely to survive 3d10+9 damage ?

Starbuck_II
2005-11-23, 02:07 PM
Let me try to make your class clearer.

Saying as Sorc is fine and dandy but it confuses people without a chart. As shown above a few times.

Why not say they can cast a spell they do not know up to max spell they have known or lower? I don't think they should be able to cast any higher *spell at low levels even with con damage.

ilovefire
2005-11-23, 03:18 PM
hmm... kay, added a spells per day chart. and a few more things a friend of mine suggested. Also

The Cultist, Version 5
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any nonlawful, nongood alignment.
Weapon/Armor profiencies: Staves, Daggers, and Sickles. No armor profiencies.
BAB progression: As wizard
Will Save progression: High
Fort save progression: Low
Ref save progression: Low
Cultists are CON based casters. They can cast any of there spells at any time, but only if they take damage equal to a roll according to table: The Cultist. They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.
Spell lists: As wizard. No material components necessary for spells. Can cast spells spontaneously. You may cast spells that you do not know, however, they must be of a level you can cast, and you must take CON damage equal to the spell level times two. EX: If a Cultist is falling from a great height, and needs to cast the Feather Fall spell, but does not know it, may take CON damage equal to 2 to cast Feather Fall. CON damage returns at the rate of one point a day. However, because Cultists are generally of the willful sort, and they use a portion of their will to cast their spells, the DC of all spells cast is set by the WIS modifier, not the CON modifier.
Known Spells: As wizard, with banned schools Divination and Conjuration. They also may not take spells having to do with the astral plane, spirits, or ethereal events. The number of the cultist's bonus spell slots is based on his Con modifier.
Spells per day: See chart: Spells per day
Feats: Gains the Toughness feat at second level, and every four levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18)
Special: At level one, the Cultist is only healed half as much from positive energy. At level three, they are only damaged half as much from negative energy. At level five, and again at level seven, the Cultist gains +2 CON.

Disclaimer: Characters that are healed by negative energies are also healed half as much from negative energy. Characters damaged by positive energies are damaged half as much from positive energies.

Disclaimer 2: Cure Minor Wounds has NO effect on a cultist; however, it WILL stabilize a dying one.











Table: The Cultist

Cantrips - 1 hp
1st - 1d4 hp
2nd - 1d6
3rd - 1d8
4th - 1d10
5th - 2d6
6th - 2d8
7th - 2d10
8th - 3d8
9th - 3d10


Spells per Day

{table]1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 5 — — — — — — — —
4th 6 6 3 — — — — — — —
5th 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
6th 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 6 4 — — — — — —
8th 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
10th 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6[/table]

Randomman413
2005-11-23, 04:19 PM
Wouldn't it really just be easier to have them know as many spells as a sorceror, but cast with just their hp? no spells per day. or, with spells per day, but more than a sorceror (as the cultist needs to use his hp. otherwise, hes just a sorceror who enjoys hurting himself.)

ilovefire
2005-11-23, 04:24 PM
Wouldn't it really just be easier to have them know as many spells as a sorceror, but cast with just their hp? no spells per day. or, with spells per day, but more than a sorceror (as the cultist needs to use his hp. otherwise, hes just a sorceror who enjoys hurting himself.)
yeah, i thought about the no-spells-per-day thing, but that seemed a little broken, since all you had to do was be a real good friend to the party cleric, and you'd effectively have many, many spells a day.

jdrich
2005-11-23, 05:15 PM
The class is so broken my knee hurts just thinking about it.


You seem to forget that every time you lose 2 points of Con, you also lose 1 hp per level. Now tell me, is a level 1 cultist with 4+Con hp likely to survive 3d10+9 damage ?

This is so strange of a question that I find it hard to answer correctly. A level 1 orc cultist will have max 11 HP. I give my players max HP at first level. They're just too fragile. YMMV

Anyway, this orc guy can take 20 damage without really feeling the burn, right? A 3rd level spell causes 1d8 damage plus 6 con damage, for a total max of 11 damage. How many encounters is this guy going to be in that a fireball wont kill most every monster? A maximized magic missile wont kill every BBEG?

The class is quite a mismash.

Requiring the PCs to be both nonlawful and nongood only leaves 2 alignment options for your average PC, and I see no reason why a chaotic good cultist can't exist, but a chaotic good warklock can.

No melee weapon proficiencies? Not even crossbows? They have less combat prowess than a wizard, but more HP. Why? (Balance...)

What sort of damage is it? Magical? Self-inflicted? Non-lethal? A cultist mineral warrior (broken, I know) would be able to cast spells of levels 1-3 with impunity, and wouldn't really have a good chance of hurting himself until level 7 spells came around.

They set the DC of thier spells with thier Wis modifier, but cannot cast spells related to divine magic? lol what?

If they can cast any of thier spells at any time, then why do they have a spells per day chart?

Let me get this straight, they can cast ninth level spells, but also have the following bonus feats during thier progression:

Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]


Disclaimer: Characters that are healed by negative energies are also healed half as much from negative energy. Characters damaged by positive energies are damaged half as much from positive energies.

What?!?

ILM
2005-11-23, 06:01 PM
This is so strange of a question that I find it hard to answer correctly.
That's because it's a rhetorical question. Anyway, you're a bit late : he's already changed it to allow only spells of a level he can cast. Yes, potential access to all Wiz/Sorc spells in the game, but with a steep cost (@ level 17, for a 9th level spell : 3d10+153 damage. Ouch ; @ level 11, for a 6th level spell : 2d8+66. Ouch).

How does a mineral warrior Cultist can cast spells of levels 1-3 he doesn't know with impunity ? Damage @ level 5, 3rd level spell : 1d8+15, and mineral warrior doesn't grant DR 16/-


Requiring the PCs to be both nonlawful and nongood only leaves 2 alignment options for your average PC, and I see no reason why a chaotic good cultist can't exist, but a chaotic good warklock can.

Actually, four. Besides, the class' flavour belongs to the OP - if he says no CG cultists, then it's no CG cultists. We can, however, offer helpful advice about balance issues (but that's just IMO).


No melee weapon proficiencies? Not even crossbows? They have less combat prowess than a wizard, but more HP. Why? (Balance...)
A point there. Giving them simple weapon proficiency wouldn't help them all that much anyway, so might as well do so.


If they can cast any of thier spells at any time, then why do they have a spells per day chart?
I fail to see your point. A sorc can cast any of his spells at any time, but only a certain number of times per day. What's the problem ?


They set the DC of thier spells with thier Wis modifier, but cannot cast spells related to divine magic? lol what?
I disagree with your argument but not with the fact the Wis is a bit strange. Cha would probably seem a better choice to me.


Let me get this straight, they can cast ninth level spells, but also have the following bonus feats during thier progression:

Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]
Great Constitution [Epic]
a) Toughness feats suck anyway. Ooh, 15 extra hp over 20 levels, look at me !
b) Plenty of classes give +2's to stats over their progression. Me, I'd rather have a Wiz's bonus feats. However, it might be wise to specify the type of bonus they are : inherent ? enhancement ? unnamed ?
c) Comparing class abilities to epic feats is stupid. News flash : Wizards and Sorcs get a form of Improved Spell Capacity every other level, since they gain access to a new spell level. OMG broken !!!


What ????
He means that if you're somehow healed by negative energy (such as from being undead) then the healing restrictions switch around so that they apply to you in the same fashion as if you healed normally.

DarkListener
2005-11-23, 06:19 PM
They must be equipped with a dagger or a sickle to cast spells.



I dont really get this one, is there some special reason i overlooked while reading the thread or is it just some funny idea?

I also have the feeling that the damage the cultist will suffer from casting his spells has swiched from noleathal to leathal. I think it would be a better idea to have him take nonleathal damage. i dont think many players would risk to cast their character to death, especially in battle. Falling unconcious is an entirely diffrent matter.

I also had an idea concidering the spells per day limit. The whole thing is a bit complicated and i needed to introduce a new kind of damage. I feel that its not a good solution since it makes things rather complicated, but i thought id pot it in anyway. Here it comes:
When casting a spell, the cultist takes (non)leathal damage according to the table: the cultist and also takes the same amount of what ill call spiritual damage. The maximum spiritual damage the cultist can take equals his total hitpoint maximum.
The (non)lethal damage th cultist takes can be healed in the normal ways, however the spiritual damage only goes away after a nights rest.
If the spiritual damage the cultist has taken exeeds his total HP maximum, he must make a fortirude save DC 15+amount of spititual damage exeeding his HP maximum. If he fails, he immeadiatly falls unconcious and starts healing spiritual damage at the rate of three points per hour. When his spiritual damage equals his HP maximum, he begins sleeping (he does not wake up, but hes not unconcious anymore and may be woken as a sleeping character) and recovers normally.
If he succeeds on his save, he may stay concious and keep casting spells, but the damage he takes CON damage instead of (non)leathal damage. After casting a spell, he needs to make a new Fortitude save or fall unconcious. If by casting a spell, he reduces his CON score to 0 or below, the cultis dies.
EDIT: using this concept, i think id be more intresting to have the cultist take leathal damage from casting spells.


@Jonathan: i think that last quote that confused you menas this: The Cultist is only healed half as much from healing spells (positive energy) and takes only half the damage fom negative energy. However, creatures (eg undead) that are healed by negative and harmed by positive energy may also become cultists. In this case, they are healed half the amount they normally woul if a negative energy spell is cast upon them and take only half the damage from positive energy.
Also according to your post, i think it would be a bad ideato have the cultist cast divine spells since thatd allow him to heal himself.

ILM
2005-11-23, 06:41 PM
I also have the feeling that the damage the cultist will suffer from casting his spells has swiched from noleathal to leathal. I think it would be a better idea to have him take nonleathal damage. i dont think many players would risk to cast their character to death, especially in battle. Falling unconcious is an entirely diffrent matter.
I don't agree. There are too many ways out there to make yourself immune to nonlethal damage.

Sciurusaurus
2005-11-23, 06:50 PM
Also according to your post, i think it would be a bad ideato have the cultist cast divine spells since thatd allow him to heal himself.


Think of the 11th+ level cultist who memorizes Heal in all his available 6th-lvl slots ;)

Or even worse, a 15th level cultist with quickened Restorations... no more worrying about Con damage.

So I agree with you that the decision to keep away from divine spells is definitely the right one.

ilovefire
2005-11-23, 08:38 PM
Hmm... yeah, no reason not to give them all simple weapons. and the whole 'must be equiped with a dagger or a sickle' thing, well, kinda a flavor thing, kinda not. Ya see, they damage themselves to cast spells, right? i'll change that to any weapon that can deal slashing or stabbing damage.

and the DC set by wis thing was because... i flipped a coin to see if the DC was set by WIS or CHA. If it seems to strange, i'll switch it about.

Aranth
2006-04-10, 12:41 PM
He could cast spells as a wizard, only converting the type to divine! But then you don't have to worry about armor chance failure...

For clarity:
You might want to specify that, when casting a spell he/she doesn't know, the cultist still uses up a slot of that level for that day.
Where the damage comes from (important for damage reduction)
Also for damage reduction- do you inflict upon yourself that amount of damage, regardless of reduction? For example, in the same situation, would a character with no DR deal 8 points of damage to himself, and a character reducing 2 points deal 10 damage to himself, resulting in 8 points being received still?
Constitution based casters, with the exception of DC provided by wisdom (or whatever)... do they cast spells up to the level of (con-10) or (wis-10)? (as in, if they have a wisdom of 12, can they still cast 3rd level spells?)
Can they cast in full plate armor? How about half-plate? How does 'still spell' work? Do they suffer arcane spell failure even for spells without somatic components?
How do they prepare for spellcasting in the morning? Sorcerors and bards concentrate for 15 minutes, psions concentrate for a full round...
Should probably move the comment on bonus spell slots into the "Spells per day" section rather than the "Known spells" section.


Idea: combining intimidate checks with spellcasting?

(Also, crossbows are not melee, except as improvising bashing weapons... they're ranged.)


Edit: D'oh, I only just now noticed how old this thread is.

Nolfar
2006-04-10, 01:09 PM
Reminds me of the casters from the Midnight setting. They originally did nonlethal damage with no spells per day until it was found in playtesting that it was abusive with healing. Granted, the Midnight casters can learn healing spells and this guy can't, but there's no reason for a cleric (possably the cultist's leader anyway!) to heal him up now and then. You might, in face, want to consider making the con damage unable to be healed via Restoration, but possably return faster than normal damage.

All damage incured should bypass any DR.

Also, consider this: a Cultist Lich....

Orion-the-G
2006-04-10, 01:20 PM
Yeah, very definitely have to deal with the ability of some creatures to utterly ignore non-lethal damage.

Since it's Con based, undead and constructs can't use it at all (they would have insufficient Con to cast even 0 level spells)

However, several PrC's allow immunity to nonelethal damage, in that case I'd strongly reccomend converting nonlethal to lethal damage.

axraelshelm
2006-04-10, 01:40 PM
how about this?
This spellcaster can only cast the spells that he doubles his level in. "sorcerer spell progression"
Can cast spontanstly but he takes the level of the spell times 3 in non leathal damage?
level 1=3 points of damage.
and has d8 for hit die?
fort save high
will save low
reflex low
armour and weapon the same.
damage reduction don't work when it's spell damage.
considering the harm the cultist inflicts on itself i think damage reduction like the babarian. but remember it doesn't work for spells.

endoperez
2006-04-10, 02:13 PM
I'm not sure how these examples would work or break this, but:

If I'm a Barbarian 1/Cultist 1, can I cast my spells better than a Cultist 2? It seems so. I'd know less spells, but those I can could cast would be more useful. What about temporary hitpoints the Cultist gets, from e.g. the 0-level divine spell?

Can she summon demons/devils/succubi, or contact some infernal or (abyssal? abysmal? Eeevil?) power? That would fit the class very well IMHO.
Maybe, in addition to the other material components, all such spells would require human sacrifice. That might pull the alignement restriction down to "any non-lawful and evil", though.

Whether the damage a cultist receives when she casts a spell is lethal or subdual, it can potentially be healed. Maybe that damage should be special, so that it only comes back after 8 hours' rest. She could cast spells even if she doesn't get to sleep, she just couldn't heal fully...
If the Cultist's total hitpoints is less than the amount of temporary damage she has, she would be unconscious. After 8 hours of unconsciousness (at which point she would get rid of all temporary damage), she would have recovered, and could wake up. She could be woken up earlier, if her hp total was raised above the number of temporary damage she had taken.
I quess it shouldn't be possible to lessen the amount of sleep needed to recover it. Except possibly as a higher-level class feature. And I quess all such damage should be removed if she gets to sleep even one night.