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View Full Version : Militant Sith vs. The Covenant



Arachu
2009-06-06, 10:56 PM
The Sith in question are from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. In other words, they are armies of badass soldiers (non force-users) with intimidating armor and strong blasters, being led by powerful Sith force-users. They use starships, blasters, and relentless tactics.

The Covenant are the Halo Covenant, and they are as they appear in Halo Wars. They have their strong caste system, as well as the (seemingly anachronis) Brutes on their side. They use massive ships, plasma weapons, and zealotry.

The Scenario: A scout party of Sith soldiers is patrolling an unexplored region of space. A message proclaiming that they "Would be cleansed" is received by them.

For some reason, the Covenant declare war not on the Republic, but the Sith (despite them being a somewhat smaller group).

Who would win this clash of the titans?

Yay! I have a better question now :smalltongue:

Finn Solomon
2009-06-06, 11:11 PM
No lightsabers for the Sith? The force users should have some. A lightsaber/plasma sword duel would be a joy to behold.

Arachu
2009-06-06, 11:17 PM
Well, yeah, the force-using ones have lightsabers. And yes, that would be epic. :smallbiggrin:

Dragonus45
2009-06-07, 12:19 AM
As tough as this is i would vote sith. For all the same reasons star wars tends to win just about anything, there technology is beyond over powered. Throw in the use of the force battle trance whatsit and you have some awesome might to be thrown around. And as cool as a lightsaber verses energy sword fight would be, i would give it to the jedi in question, force powers would eat an elite for lunch, but numbers could even that.

Athaniar
2009-06-07, 03:25 AM
Just to clear things up: the Sith have their "special asset" (the Star Forge), right?

Zocelot
2009-06-07, 10:27 AM
I don't think the Sith even need that asset. Even a single Sith force user could is more powerful than Master Chief who just about singlehandedly wiped out an entire Covenant Armada.

The Sith are more powerful and more intelligent than the Covenant. The Covenant have simply no advantages in this war.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-07, 10:32 AM
The Sith have Revan. This is less a war and more like a slaughter.

chiasaur11
2009-06-07, 10:48 AM
The Sith have Revan. This is less a war and more like a slaughter.

The Sith have HK-47.

This isn't slaughter, it's art.

Arachu
2009-06-07, 11:27 AM
Though, in the Covenant's defense, they have the Halo Wars Arbiter, as well as Scarabs... Not to mention, the larger question is in the infantry (and space, let's not forget space) battles themselves. The Covenant use plasma to kill people in ways lasers can only emulate, and most Sith troopers do not have personal shields.

[/devilsadvocate]

Krytha
2009-06-07, 11:37 AM
The problem is the force. It's as big as the writers wanted to make it, and if you use even a fraction of its "documented" power, it's still over the top.

Jallorn
2009-06-07, 11:38 AM
The sith would suffer more loses, mostly to their infantry and fighter troops, but in the end they'd win. And then kill each other a few years later :D

Arachu
2009-06-07, 11:46 AM
The sith would suffer more loses, mostly to their infantry and fighter troops, but in the end they'd win. And then kill each other a few years later :D

Hey, it even fits chronologically :D

Dragonus45
2009-06-07, 02:21 PM
Though, in the Covenant's defense, they have the Halo Wars Arbiter, as well as Scarabs... Not to mention, the larger question is in the infantry (and space, let's not forget space) battles themselves. The Covenant use plasma to kill people in ways lasers can only emulate, and most Sith troopers do not have personal shields.

[/devilsadvocate]

Gah, must argue, cant stop fingers... Well the thing is the covenant are total idiots. All of there technology is vultured and highly inefficient. They aren't to slick when it comes to combat either. They constantly lost ground engagement after ground engagement, only there total space superiority let them beat back the unsc, which was fulled by technological superiority. Elite swat teams of sith who could be said to be equal to any Spartan II could tear apart there infantry in the same style. And it wouldn't take to long for them to catch on to personal shielding technology, i think there was an item like such in one of the kotor games.

Arachu
2009-06-07, 02:31 PM
Gah, must argue, cant stop fingers... Well the thing is the covenant are total idiots. All of there technology is vultured and highly inefficient. They aren't to slick when it comes to combat either. They constantly lost ground engagement after ground engagement, only there total space superiority let them beat back the unsc, which was fulled by technological superiority. Elite swat teams of sith who could be said to be equal to any Spartan II could tear apart there infantry in the same style. And it wouldn't take to long for them to catch on to personal shielding technology, i think there was an item like such in one of the kotor games.

This is true. Also, there are personal shield units in KotOR, but they are far less common than one would expect them to be...

Dragonus45
2009-06-07, 05:07 PM
A better matchup might me the U.N.S.C Covenant aliance versus the sith, with a bit of a tech upgrade by virtue of a few spartan stolen space ships. Plus i would bet that some force powers would awaken in a chunk of the... wait bad idea. Turns to the darkside would happen so fast in the covenant side of things they would be joining the sith before either side could ready weapons. But the idea of a spartan jedi is to good to let go. So lets say they get one or two for balance sake. That would be a fight worth seeing.

Llama231
2009-06-07, 06:40 PM
My answer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111975)

GoC
2009-06-07, 06:50 PM
My answer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111975)

Emmm... I thought that was a combination of things (with extra enphasis on age) not power?

The_JJ
2009-06-07, 11:38 PM
I dunno. Awesome as X-Wings might be, Star Wars space battles kinda lack the... umph of the MAC cannon/plasma torpedo exchanges of the Halo verse, which are fought out at far longer ranges as well. So in the space race I wanna hand this to the Covenant, especially with their (to me) stronger seeming sheilds.

And ground forces wise... one on one, Force users on Hunters, but that's by no means a guarentee. Call it 75/25 kill ratio, but either way the plasma cannon/beam is not going to be stopped by no lightsaber, and closing to melee with Hunters hurts.
So... Force Sith>Hunters>(and here's where gaps show up)>Elites>Jackles>ground troop Sith>Grunts. Force Sith are few and far between, and even basic Grunt arms like a Needler or plasma grenade or just mass fired plasma pistol shots could screw them right up.
KOTOR Sith to a large extent, and even Star Wars in general sucks at ground vehicles. AT-AT's vs Scarab ends with a very dead AT-AT. Throw in Ghosts and Wraiths and I think the Covvies might actually do okay on the ground. *gasp* (Need a :smallsmile: for that.)

So yeah, it really all devolves down to leadership. Revan? Sith deliver royal beating. Malak? I think we got ourselves a new relgion. Now let's go blow up some Halo's.

Arachu
2009-06-07, 11:57 PM
Yep, the Sith don't have **** in the way of ground vehicles.

But what they do have are tactics. And, despite the weak armor units, they have excellent droids (and, for that matter, a tank that just may rival the Wraith).

Finn Solomon
2009-06-08, 06:38 AM
The Sith have tactics under Revan. Under Malak? He's more a student of the throw-mooks-at-target-until-it-goes-away school. He bombarded an entire frickin' planet to eliminate one woman. That doesn't scream "tactical genius" to me.

Dragonus45
2009-06-08, 11:06 AM
Well that one woman was among the greatest threats to his entire empire, and also in a massive hive planet. Bombarding the place wasn't the worst he could do.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-08, 11:31 AM
So lets say they get one or two for balance sake. That would be a fight worth seeing.

Sith still win. Revan.


He bombarded an entire frickin' planet to eliminate one woman. That doesn't scream "tactical genius" to me.

Lets see. She's a Jedi who has forgotten her history and is currently depowered but still able to unconsciously utilize the Force. You're right, a tactical genius would have called in more ships to bombard the planet, withdrew his command vessel then shoot down each and every single ship trying to leave just to be sure she didn't escape.


So in the space race I wanna hand this to the Covenant, especially with their (to me) stronger seeming sheilds.

The range difference is completely negated by hyperdrives. And the sheer number of guns on most Star Wars ships, particularly guns of equal or greater power than the Covenant plasma guns, would demolish the Covenant entirely.


Call it 75/25 kill ratio, but either way the plasma cannon/beam is not going to be stopped by no lightsaber, and closing to melee with Hunters hurts.

This is just plain wrong. Blasters are plasma weapons, and thus anything the Covenant uses will be deflectable by a lightsaber. Finally, a lightsaber melts through anything short of special material specifically designed not to be melted by a lightsaber. I'll call it an Unstoppable Force. Add to this Unstoppable Force a wielder who effectively has precognition, the ability to leap over you before you can react and no qualms about murdering you? You have a dead Hunter. Heck, Master Chief in his crappy little cyborg suit and human-level reactions can defeat Hunters in melee by leaping over and firing guns into the weak point on the back. A Sith will have even less trouble than Master Chief.


Force Sith are few and far between, and even basic Grunt arms like a Needler or plasma grenade or just mass fired plasma pistol shots could screw them right up.

Needles get melted and plasma shots are deflected while grenades get rejected(I had a rhyme going). Heck, look at the Geonosis Arena in the prequel movies. The only Jedi who died were the guys who didn't pay attention when being taught how to fight. And that's Jedi after 2,000 years of peace. We're talking about Sith whose entire philosophy is that the weak are crushed under the strong.

Plus, there are crazy amounts of Sith. On the Star Forge alone you kill Sith Masters as -grunts-. Sure, the Covenant are gonna cut right through the troopers but they're stormtrooper rejects. They exist as a moving ablative layer of meat.


AT-AT's vs Scarab ends with a very dead AT-AT.

I'll give you that ground vechiles suck, but this is a poor comparison. The Scarab has a significant charge time, and the AT-AT packs equal or better firepower in a rapid-fire form. Nothing is stopping the AT-AT from just shooting off the Scarab's main gun

chiasaur11
2009-06-08, 12:21 PM
This is just plain wrong. Blasters are plasma weapons, and thus anything the Covenant uses will be deflectable by a lightsaber. Finally, a lightsaber melts through anything short of special material specifically designed not to be melted by a lightsaber. I'll call it an Unstoppable Force. Add to this Unstoppable Force a wielder who effectively has precognition, the ability to leap over you before you can react and no qualms about murdering you? You have a dead Hunter. Heck, Master Chief in his crappy little cyborg suit and human-level reactions can defeat Hunters in melee by leaping over and firing guns into the weak point on the back. A Sith will have even less trouble than Master Chief.




Just a correction. Chief has very superhuman reaction times, as in "can punch a rocket out of the air". Combine that with a fairly good cyborg suit, and insane strength and training even without the suit, and we're not so far below Jedi that "Master Chief won, therefore any Jedi can win" is a guarantee.

Especially with the whole order 66 debacle.

Texas_Ben
2009-06-08, 12:27 PM
The Sith? From KOTOR? They have trouble hitting a guy standing still like 10 feet in front of them! Say what you want about the Covenant, but at least *some* of them can shoot straight.

That said, Covenant are boned in space.


Just a correction. Chief has very superhuman reaction times, as in "can punch a rocket out of the air". Combine that with a fairly good cyborg suit, and insane strength and training even without the suit, and we're not so far below Jedi that "Master Chief won, therefore any Jedi can win" is a guarantee.

I only skimmed this thread, but I'm assuming Spartan V. Jedi will come up eventually, or at the very least Elite V. Jedi, So I'll just point out that Jango Fett gave Obi Wan a run for his money, and he was so far as I know unaugmented. So with that said I'm assuming that your Spartans and your Elites are the equals of your jedis.

Fan
2009-06-08, 12:36 PM
The Sith? From KOTOR? They have trouble hitting a guy standing still like 10 feet in front of them! Say what you want about the Covenant, but at least *some* of them can shoot straight.

That said, Covenant are boned in space.



I only skimmed this thread, but I'm assuming Spartan V. Jedi will come up eventually, or at the very least Elite V. Jedi, So I'll just point out that Jango Fett gave Obi Wan a run for his money, and he was so far as I know unaugmented. So with that said I'm assuming that your Spartans and your Elites are the equals of your jedis.

Except Master Chief can't TEAR A MULTI GIGA TON STAR SHIP OUT OF THE SKY, or stop someone's heart with a flick of a finger, or dislodge someones brain stem by thinking about it. The force is a HUGE tool, and the life time of training that Jedi recieve make them pretty bad ass warriors.

hamishspence
2009-06-08, 01:30 PM
and these tend to be very difficult. The Apprentice in The Force Unleashed is one of the most powerful force users of all time, and pulling down a Star Destroyer is difficult even for him.

Darksaber has a small fleet of Star Destroyers thrown across the system. However, this requires a whole group of Jedi working together, using a powerful focus (the Great Temple built by Exar Kun) and it kills the Jedi they channel the power through.

Closet_Skeleton
2009-06-08, 02:32 PM
Lets see. She's a Jedi who has forgotten her history and is currently depowered but still able to unconsciously utilize the Force. You're right, a tactical genius would have called in more ships to bombard the planet, withdrew his command vessel then shoot down each and every single ship trying to leave just to be sure she didn't escape.

No. He killed the planet to kill Bastila, who's essentially an "I win" button for any naval engagement. He didn't know that other jedi was alive at the time.


and these tend to be very difficult. The Apprentice in The Force Unleashed is one of the most powerful force users of all time, and pulling down a Star Destroyer is difficult even for him.

Pity that that guy DID NOT PULL AN OPERATIONAL STAR DESTROYER OUT OF THE SKY.

Arachu
2009-06-08, 07:20 PM
Tactical advantages of the Sith:
-Ambush tactics
-Numbers with moderate power
-Fast ships
-Droids
-A lot more grenades
-Either the skill of Revan or the brutality of Malak; depends
-The occasional Macguffin-in-a-sack-of-meat
-Badass armor :smalltongue:


Tactical advantages of the Covenant:
-Species designed for sniping, strength, tactics (Jackal, Brute, Elite)
-Living tanks (Hunters)
-Better ground vehicles
-Stronger grenades
-Much more effective padding (think Grunts, in Legendary)
-The Scarab
A few more things I just forgot...
-

The_JJ
2009-06-08, 09:11 PM
This is just plain wrong. Blasters are plasma weapons, and thus anything the Covenant uses will be deflectable by a lightsaber. Finally, a lightsaber melts through anything short of special material specifically designed not to be melted by a lightsaber. I'll call it an Unstoppable Force. Add to this Unstoppable Force a wielder who effectively has precognition, the ability to leap over you before you can react and no qualms about murdering you? You have a dead Hunter. Heck, Master Chief in his crappy little cyborg suit and human-level reactions can defeat Hunters in melee by leaping over and firing guns into the weak point on the back. A Sith will have even less trouble than Master Chief.

Yes, plasma rifle will be deflected. The plasma cannon shoots an explode on contact ball of plasma about the size of the Hunter's head. That's like trying to block rocket. You can hit it with the lightsaber, but you die when it explodes. Leet dodging is much better, as I acknowledged.
The plasma beam cannon shoots a beam of plasma of about the same width. A saberwielder might block an inch long slice of that, but the rest goes ahead and sends him off to be one with the force.
Needler shots are semi-homing and also explode on contact for nice shrapnel damage to unarmored flesh. A Sith trying to block a full Needler stream is going to be filled with lots and lots of little glass shards.
And the Brute Shot, Brute shotgun thingy and Brute Spiker are also going to play merry hell with anyone not wearing armor.
Oh, and grav hammers. Much longer reach than a saber, impossible to block. Fun times.

Also, don't go dissin' the cheif's 'crappy little cyborg suit' he jumps about as high and moves about as fast as the average non-Yoda Jedi. Not as acrobatic awesome twisty, but also way stronger. And that's about the performance you get out of the Elites.



Needles get melted and plasma shots are deflected while grenades get rejected(I had a rhyme going). Heck, look at the Geonosis Arena in the prequel movies. The only Jedi who died were the guys who didn't pay attention when being taught how to fight. And that's Jedi after 2,000 years of peace. We're talking about Sith whose entire philosophy is that the weak are crushed under the strong.


Mkay, already talked about the needles, conceeded on the plasma rifles (we'll ignore the much higher rate of fire...) And uh, citation needed on grenades getting rejected. Even the crappy ones in the KOTOR game worked well enough. Now make that an expanding sphere of (if we're accepting your assumption) lightsaberness. That's a plasma grenade for you. It also sticks. Also, um... you were watching a very different Geonosis Arena than I was. Jedi's died. Lots. And that was just to massed small arms fire, something grunts can supply in abundance.



Plus, there are crazy amounts of Sith. On the Star Forge alone you kill Sith Masters as -grunts-. Sure, the Covenant are gonna cut right through the troopers but they're stormtrooper rejects. They exist as a moving ablative layer of meat.


And there are lots of Covenant. Lots. On Keyes alone, when the Covenant are just sending in a 'strike team' you mow through Grunts armed with the aforementioned plasma cannons as, well, -grunts- and they're being backed by elites with sword who love them their plasma grenades.



I'll give you that ground vechiles suck, but this is a poor comparison. The Scarab has a significant charge time, and the AT-AT packs equal or better firepower in a rapid-fire form. Nothing is stopping the AT-AT from just shooting off the Scarab's main gun

Well, yes it's a poor comparison because the Sith have nothing remotely like an AT-AT. :smalltongue:
And, well, whatever. I think Scarab owns AT-AT. It's faster, it has a way bigger gun, much more auxillery fire, better/equitable armor, and a better (read: less likely to fall over) design.

Arachu
2009-06-08, 09:25 PM
The two sides also share one weakness:

Most Grunt squads are led by either Minor Elites or Minor Brutes
Most Sith-at-Armses are lowly Apprentices.

As for grenades: the Covenant definitely have more powerful grenades, but as every game shows, they are few and far between. The Sith, on the other hand, have multitudes of various grenades.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-08, 09:47 PM
So with that said I'm assuming that your Spartans and your Elites are the equals of your jedis.

You'd be right were we comparing the prequel films to Halo. Because in the prequels there had been 2000 years of peace stopping the Jedi from caring about military training. But we're not. We're comparing Sith, who believe in a philosophy of the strong oppressing the weak. An entire society dedicated to creating the most powerful person in the galaxy. No, SPARTAN-IIs and Elites are in no way equal to Sith.


Just a correction. Chief has very superhuman reaction times, as in "can punch a rocket out of the air".

Near-precognition means they react before an attack happens. Master Chief, even with all his supposed superhuman reaction time, still has to react. If Master Chief punches a rocket out of the air, a Sith isn't even where the rocket was aiming before the shooter has a chance to pull the trigger.


and these tend to be very difficult. The Apprentice in The Force Unleashed is one of the most powerful force users of all time, and pulling down a Star Destroyer is difficult even for him.

No, he's the most powerful force user of his time. Exar Kun destroys suns with the Force and he does it as a diversion to escape his pursuers. Starkiller is in no way, shape or form the most powerful force user of all time, or even in the last 2000 years since Darth Bane is canonically able to survive a Thought Bomb--which is an artifact built from the Dark Side channeling the power of a group of Sith and is capable of wiping out all life from a planet. The difference in power between Starkiller and even merely Darth Bane, who is ludicrously weak compared to Revan or Exar Kun, is enormous.


No. He killed the planet to kill Bastila, who's essentially an "I win" button for any naval engagement. He didn't know that other jedi was alive at the time.

I had forgotten that plot point. I rescind my previous statement.


Yes, plasma rifle will be deflected. The plasma cannon shoots an explode on contact ball of plasma about the size of the Hunter's head. That's like trying to block rocket. You can hit it with the lightsaber, but you die when it explodes.

Not quite. See, the assumption is that either a rocket or a plasma cannon shot will -hit- something. A lightsaber is not a physical object that can be struck. It is energy. As such, a lightsaber would not cause an explosion on contact and would deflect anything made of plasma.


The plasma beam cannon shoots a beam of plasma of about the same width. A saberwielder might block an inch long slice of that, but the rest goes ahead and sends him off to be one with the force.

I'll concede that Halo 3 Hunter beams would not be blockable, but they're also irrelevant as they can be dodged by just strafing.


Needler shots are semi-homing and also explode on contact for nice shrapnel damage to unarmored flesh.

Nothing near-precognition and a beam of energy that melts things it doesn't deflect can't solve.


And the Brute Shot, Brute shotgun thingy and Brute Spiker are also going to play merry hell with anyone not wearing armor.

The shotgun might be a problem, but nothing a good Force Push doesn't solve. Or just disarming him with the Force. Or pulling out his clip with the Force. Or pants him with the Force. Point is: Negated by the Force. The spiker rounds would also be melted.


Oh, and grav hammers. Much longer reach than a saber, impossible to block. Fun times.

Unblockable? Cut the head off the hammer. And in the time it takes a brute to swing(which is long enough that Master Chief's crappy little cyborg suit can dodge it) a Sith would have killed him.


Also, don't go dissin' the cheif's 'crappy little cyborg suit' he jumps about as high and moves about as fast as the average non-Yoda Jedi.

Except not. Master Chief is actually a very slow runner and it is incredibly annoying to trek through levels with him. Compare that to how quickly Jedi dash around in Battlefront or KotoR using the Force Speed ability. Or basically anything Mace Windu does in the Clone Wars cartoon. The difference in speed and agility is vast and should not be underestimated


And uh, citation needed on grenades getting rejected.

Force Wave.


Also, um... you were watching a very different Geonosis Arena than I was. Jedi's died. Lots. And that was just to massed small arms fire, something grunts can supply in abundance.

Ya. Lots of Jedi who haven't had any military training in 2000 years. Heck, canon is that the Jedi who died were the ones using Niman because they never bothered learning any other lightsaber style because they never expected to be in combat. Compare that to a Sith, who if he can't fight is dead before he's even accepted into the temple for training.


And there are lots of Covenant. Lots. On Keyes alone, when the Covenant are just sending in a 'strike team' you mow through Grunts armed with the aforementioned plasma cannons as, well, -grunts- and they're being backed by elites with sword who love them their plasma grenades.

All the more bodies to be tossed around using the Force. Again, compare what Mace Windu does to the droids in the Clone Wars cartoon. You're only playing to their strength by using overwhelming numbers, since this is what any sensible Force-user likes doing.


And, well, whatever. I think Scarab owns AT-AT. It's faster, it has a way bigger gun, much more auxillery fire, better/equitable armor, and a better (read: less likely to fall over) design.

Bigger doesn't mean stronger. An AT-AT mounts the same kind of turbolaser used on Star Destroyers. While the AT-AT can be tripped with an airspeeder, I don't see the Covenant with access to anything like that. Ultimately, the Scarab can be just as easily put down with a few rockets to a leg so a single shot of the AT-ATs guns should cripple it.

In closing: It doesn't really matter what the Covenant has to offer. The Sith have Revan. Even if they somehow had a way of defeating the Sith themselves and could utterly crush the Sith's superior space force; Revan would still win. Revan is a walking talking Deus-Ex-Machina. The Covenant has the Arbiter who just respawns upon death. Ya. I wouldn't say this is even relatively close.

GoC
2009-06-08, 11:24 PM
The EU. When fanboys dictate canon.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-08, 11:26 PM
The EU. When fanboys dictate canon.

Since 90% of the sith is EU, its all you've got. Sadly, its all canon till they say its not.

The_JJ
2009-06-09, 12:32 AM
You'd be right were we comparing the prequel films to Halo. Because in the prequels there had been 2000 years of peace stopping the Jedi from caring about military training. But we're not. We're comparing Sith, who believe in a philosophy of the strong oppressing the weak. An entire society dedicated to creating the most powerful person in the galaxy. No, SPARTAN-IIs and Elites are in no way equal to Sith.

Yah, but most of the KOTOR era Sith are crappy aprentices who keep getting dropped by Carth and his pea shooter. What Master class Sith forces are out there (and I don't deny that they'd own, gave them a 75%/25% shot over the Hunters, who I rated as the Covvy's best troops.) Where as there's always more Hunters, Brutes, what have you to keep throwing fire around. Hell, they give Grunts plasma cannons.



Near-precognition means they react before an attack happens. Master Chief, even with all his supposed superhuman reaction time, still has to react. If Master Chief punches a rocket out of the air, a Sith isn't even where the rocket was aiming before the shooter has a chance to pull the trigger.

Yeah, yeah, we know, but they have neither crazy biomechanics nor amped up genetically messed up muscles. Improved reaction time only helps so much, especially when they're dodging, e.g. a Brute squads worth of grenades and spiker shots.


No, he's the most powerful force user of his time. Exar Kun destroys suns with the Force and he does it as a diversion to escape his pursuers. Starkiller is in no way, shape or form the most powerful force user of all time, or even in the last 2000 years since Darth Bane is canonically able to survive a Thought Bomb--which is an artifact built from the Dark Side channeling the power of a group of Sith and is capable of wiping out all life from a planet. The difference in power between Starkiller and even merely Darth Bane, who is ludicrously weak compared to Revan or Exar Kun, is enormous.

Well, we're using KOTOR Era Sith, as per OP. So yeah, let's leave aside the excess of the EU.


Not quite. See, the assumption is that either a rocket or a plasma cannon shot will -hit- something. A lightsaber is not a physical object that can be struck. It is energy. As such, a lightsaber would not cause an explosion on contact and would deflect anything made of plasma.

Dude, it reverses it's velocity. It 'hit's' the blade. Nothing ever 'physically' touches. Go ahead, poke your arm. You're not touching you. It's just the electrons repelling each other. :smalltongue: Point is, momentum reverses, thing blows up. Sithy boy is much better off getting out of the way.


I'll concede that Halo 3 Hunter beams would not be blockable, but they're also irrelevant as they can be dodged by just strafing.

You try running sideways. It's much harder in real life. :smallbiggrin: Nah, but really, I said the Sith would have ~ a 75% kill ratio.


Nothing near-precognition and a beam of energy that melts things it doesn't deflect can't solve.

Frick, forgot what you were refering to. Oh yeah, Needlers. Again, they explode on contact with hard surfaces. They block, they get face full of glass shards. BTW, if we look at things logically (forgive me), lightsaber do not 'bounce' off of solid objects, no? Because then they'd be, well useless. Everything would act like another saber blade or laser blast. So if we hit a metal slug with the lightsaber, it slags down... but it doesn't stop moving toward the target. Yay, you just turned all the fire pointed at you incindiary.
Nah, I'm sure this got wrapped up in some EU novel somewhere.



The shotgun might be a problem, but nothing a good Force Push doesn't solve. Or just disarming him with the Force. Or pulling out his clip with the Force. Or pants him with the Force. Point is: Negated by the Force. The spiker rounds would also be melted.

Yay, Forciness. There is an upper limit, a very low upper limit, on how it can be abused though. Watch the movies, which is a level above the EU when we get conflicting cannons. How often does Luke really use his 'active' force powers (precog dodge aside). It's pretty rarely, even in life or death situations his first option is 'burn force to grab lightsaber, go to town.' As opposed to 'I steal your guns.' I mean it works, in some cases, but it's obviously not an all the time thing.



Unblockable? Cut the head off the hammer. And in the time it takes a brute to swing(which is long enough that Master Chief's crappy little cyborg suit can dodge it) a Sith would have killed him.

It's not the hammerhead that kills you. It's the shockwave that send 2 tonne beheamoths in steel plating flying when their stilll three feet from the head.
Also, if we're assuming plasma sword=lightsaber, then no cut for you.
And we're not even getting into the 'you can kill me for 10 seconds' rediculousness of the equipment Brutes.



Except not. Master Chief is actually a very slow runner and it is incredibly annoying to trek through levels with him. Compare that to how quickly Jedi dash around in Battlefront or KotoR using the Force Speed ability. Or basically anything Mace Windu does in the Clone Wars cartoon. The difference in speed and agility is vast and should not be underestimated

Yeah, battlefield stuff, but if you look at any of the combat scenes it's really just normal human speeds with a lot of acrobatics. Elite's and such can actually run pretty fast, though I don't have the numbers here, and they're damn good at rolling around and stuff.


Force Wave.

Ah, point. But, see above.


Ya. Lots of Jedi who haven't had any military training in 2000 years. Heck, canon is that the Jedi who died were the ones using Niman because they never bothered learning any other lightsaber style because they never expected to be in combat. Compare that to a Sith, who if he can't fight is dead before he's even accepted into the temple for training.

Was not terribly impressed with the Sith in KOTOR. Sometimes war and hard knocks means good soldiers, sometimes it means a lot of green recruits because all your truely good soldiers died already. See the Japanese airforce after a few years of WWII, or even the 'elite' American divisions that were 75% replacements and or injured.
Also, prequel Jedi might have lived in a time of peace but they were the international peacekeepers. There are more then a few EU stories set in that time where they got into hairy stuff. They considered Liam Neison well spent on diplomatic missions for heaven's sake. Lian Neison.


All the more bodies to be tossed around using the Force. Again, compare what Mace Windu does to the droids in the Clone Wars cartoon. You're only playing to their strength by using overwhelming numbers, since this is what any sensible Force-user likes doing.

Yay, one second prequel Jedi's are inadequate, the next, super heros.
:smalleek: Sorry, it's late. But seriously, indicative of general populace? No? Droids dumber (and lighter) than Covvy troops? Yes, even the Grunts, were that possible. Bodies not being throw around are pouring on the fire, with is a bad time to stick out your hand and wave it around.
And yeah, the point I'm making is that the SIth are to few and far between to enact significant change on the war before they get ganked by three Elites and some Jackles.


Bigger doesn't mean stronger. An AT-AT mounts the same kind of turbolaser used on Star Destroyers. While the AT-AT can be tripped with an airspeeder, I don't see the Covenant with access to anything like that. Ultimately, the Scarab can be just as easily put down with a few rockets to a leg so a single shot of the AT-ATs guns should cripple it.

Meh, I really don't know how to compare a 'turbo laser' to the Scarab guns, but judging from the collateral damage, and the stupid amount of fire I have to use to drop Alliance tanks in the video games, my money's still on the Scarab.
But this whole bit is irrelivent, because the Sith don't get no AT-AT's. I was just pitting the Scarab against the biggest thing Star Wars had. And then we've got Wraiths, the AA Wraiths, the AA Canon, the Ghosts, Choppers, Phantoms, etc.


In closing: It doesn't really matter what the Covenant has to offer. The Sith have Revan. Even if they somehow had a way of defeating the Sith themselves and could utterly crush the Sith's superior space force; Revan would still win. Revan is a walking talking Deus-Ex-Machina. The Covenant has the Arbiter who just respawns upon death. Ya. I wouldn't say this is even relatively close.

Yeah, Revan wins. I said that in my first post. Thing is, we're using 'KOTOR' Militant Sith. Do they get Revan? Will Revan be betray halyway through the Covvy killing campaign of 1756? Will Revan be slicing her (and it is a she) way through the Sith home base on her way to the Star Forge.

Okay, so that last one's definatly stepping outside of the senario, but Malak staging a coup is very possible, even if we give them Revan to start with.

Yeah, I'm done.

Oh, though of another point.

Again, never seen anyone in Star Wars use it well, but atmospheric air power is definatly going to the side that is not stuck with the crappy Banshees.

mangosta71
2009-06-09, 09:22 AM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned my favorite Force power from KotOR. Insanity. Whole roomful of guys suddenly stops what they're doing while they all grab their heads and scream for a while. Long enough for the Sith mooks to gun them down. And the only way to avoid the effect is by using a Force power.

Aside from that, you have the Star Forge providing an infinite supply of reserves to the Sith. No matter how many troops the Covenant has, their numbers are still finite.

I can't think of any ground vehicles that the Sith used in the games. But a volley from a warship in orbit would probably blow a Scarab to tiny little Scarab-shaped bits.

Drakyn
2009-06-09, 11:21 AM
I like this vs thread, mostly because if we're using Malak-led KotOR sith, we're comparing two armies of clutzes that only succeed at anything relatively significant when offscreen. Also because it seems really quite even: the sith have loads of incompetent darkside apprentices, the covenant have brutes and elite...elites; the covenant have hunters and the sith have competent dark jedi; the sith presumably have big mechanical ground things hiding somewhere because they weren't able to work well with KotOR's engine, and the covenant have scarabs.
Okay, the last one's sort of stupid, but overall I think these two match up well. It's neat because the groups are so similar: "unstoppable" and dogmatic armies that nevertheless exist to be personally and lethally torn to shreds by the protagonist despite being reputably deadly, and that seen to heartily endorse hurling mooks at problems in droves. Honestly, I find all the arguments pretty persuasive.

Closet_Skeleton
2009-06-09, 12:11 PM
No, he's the most powerful force user of his time. Exar Kun destroys suns with the Force and he does it as a diversion to escape his pursuers.

That was Naga Sadow. Exar Kun gets minions to destroy suns for him.

edit:


I was using the saga edition principles- which place The Apprentice's Use the Force check as comparable to Kun or Bane.

Only because it's only a measly 3 point differance between level 14 and level 20.


And remember that in the novels Bane survives the thought bomb by not being near it.

Yeah, saying Bane survived the thought bomb is like saying Emperor Hirohito survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Valenthyne Farfalla's entire army survived the thought bomb just as well as Bane did.

Jedi have defences against pretty much everything (slugthrowers, plasma, grenades, telekinesis, raw psychic energy, etc). The important thing to remember is that none of those defences have a 100% success rate even under the most favourable conditions.

hamishspence
2009-06-09, 12:38 PM
I was using the saga edition principles- which place The Apprentice's Use the Force check as comparable to Kun or Bane.

And remember that in the novels Bane survives the thought bomb by not being near it.

Texas_Ben
2009-06-09, 04:00 PM
Bringing up needlers again, needler rounds are deflected by energy fields so it's a fair bet that they could be deflected by a lightsaber.


And does anyone even have any information about what ground vehicles the Sith would have during this time? It seems like we sort of need it to continue this discussion.


Also something occurred to me just now that gives the Sith an advantage in space and against vehicles and shielded opponents-- Ion weapons. Seems like zapping the covenant ships and vehicles with a few ion cannons is the way to go.