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The Glyphstone
2005-07-09, 01:01 PM
All warriors must become skilled in the use of their blades to survive. Some, those with more sense than scruples, learn to even the odds with the use of certain substances.

Basically, a warrior-type class especially skilled in the use of poisons.

Hit Die: d8

Requirements: To become a Venomrazor, a character must fulfill the following requirements:
Alignment: Any nongood
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Craft(Alchemy) 9 ranks

Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Profession, Ride, Swim
Skill Points at each level: 4+ Int modifier.



Level *BAB * *Fort *Ref * Will * Special
1st * *+1 * * +2 * *+2 * *+0 * *Poison Use, Brew Poison+1
2nd * *+2 * * +3 * *+3 * *+0 * *Poisonous Talent * *
3rd * *+3 * * +3 * *+3 * *+1 * *Brew Poison +2 * *
4th * *+4 * * +4 * *+4 * *+1 * *Bonus Feat
5th * *+5 * * +4 * *+4 * *+1 * *Brew Poison +3
6th * *+6/+1 *+5 * *+5 * *+2 * *Poisonous Talent
7th * *+7/+2 *+5 * *+5 * *+2 * *Brew Poison +4
8th * *+8/+3 *+6 * *+6 * *+2 * *Bonus Feat
9th * *+9/+4 *+6 * *+6 * *+3 * *Brew Poison +5
10th * +10/+5 +7 * *+7 * *+3 * Poison Mastery, Poisonous Talent
* *

Poison Use: Venomrazors are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Brew Poison: When making a Craft(Alchemy) check to create a dose of poison, a Venomrazor adds a +1 competence bonus to the total. This increases by +1 every odd level, for a total of +5 at 9th level.

Poisonous Talent: At 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels, a Venomrazor can select a special ability from the following chart.
Rapid Application: Once per round, the Venomrazor can apply poison to his weapon as a free action.
Extra Potent: Poisons used by the Venomrazor that deal ability damage will deal an additional 1 point of permanant ability drain if the target fails their initial Fortitude save.
Longer Lasting: When a Venomrazor applies poison to a weapon, it retains its potency longer. The poison does not wear off until the weapon has struck twice, whether at one target or two.
Accelerated Onset: The Venomrazor's poisons take half as long to force a Fortitude save against the secondary damage (5 rounds instead of 10).
Improved Formula: All DC's for the poisons used by the Venomrazor increase by 2.
Bonus Feat: Instead of selecting a special ability, the Venomrazor can select a bonus feat from the list of bonus feats allowed for fighters.

Bonus Feat: At 4th and 8th levels, a Venomrazor can select a Bonus feat from the list of bonus feats allowed for fighters.

Poisonous Mastery: When a Venomrazor reaches 10th level, his skill in formulating and using poisons is at its peak. All poisons that the Venomrazor makes and uses increase the size of their damage die by 1 category (so a poison that deals 1d4 Dex damage will deal 1d6 instead, or 2d6 will become 2d8). This does not affect poison that deals a stated amount of damage, or no damage at all. The price of crafting the poison does not increase, nor does the time required.


So, over/underpowered? I was aiming for a flavorful class that added extra utility to the otherwise boring fighter.

Mick_the_Rogue
2005-07-09, 01:10 PM
Looks fairly good to me...maybe ever so slightly under powered

I'd also give him at say level 5 either a resistence to poisons, and maybe at higher levels an immunity.

MrNexx
2005-07-09, 01:44 PM
Requirements: To become a Venomrazor, a character must fulfill the following requirements:
Alignment: Any nongood


Not a snipe against your class, since I know this is the standard, but why is poison use considered nongood? I see paralytic poisons as being a wonderful way to incapacitate without killing, allowing you to get rid of dangers with minimal harm, or engage opponents with less harm to yourself.



Poisonous Talent: At 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels, a Venomrazor can select a special ability from the following chart.
Rapid Application: Once per round, the Venomrazor can apply poison to his weapon as a free action.

Is it usually a move action? If not, I would have it drop it down a step (from full-round to standard, standard to move, move to swift... because as a free action, you can apply poison infinitely a round).


Extra Potent: Poisons used by the Venomrazor that deal ability damage will deal an additional 1 point of permanant ability drain if the target fails their initial Fortitude save.

I would change this to +1 ability damage in both primary and secondary phases, instead of permanent ability damage; that's a fairly major benefit.


Poisonous Mastery: When a Venomrazor reaches 10th level, his skill in formulating and using poisons is at its peak. All poisons that the Venomrazor makes and uses increase the size of their damage die by 1 category (so a poison that deals 1d4 Dex damage will deal 1d6 instead, or 2d6 will become 2d8). This does not affect poison that deals a stated amount of damage, or no damage at all. The price of crafting the poison does not increase, nor does the time required.

I'd make it (for cost and time) as a masterwork posion (double cost), not free.

Overall, it looks pretty good; this seems very rangerish to me, since they're going to have the spellcasting abilities to make use of alchemy for things other than poisons.

Jibar
2005-07-09, 01:49 PM
I'd also say that if your like my new character (20 rogue, 10 shadowdancer, 10 assasain) and doing a stealth campaign, this'd be perfect for multiclassing, just means that instead of breaking everyones neck you just poison them instead.

The Glyphstone
2005-07-09, 02:00 PM
Mick: Hmmm...resistance to poison..good idea. I'll rename Brew Poison as Poison Affinity and add "the Venomrazor also adds this bonus to any saves made vs. poisons." Combined with his high Fort save, this should work for a good poison resistance.

Nexx: I made it nongood because the standard for D&D is "poison is evil". This could be changed by a DM at their leisure.
The SRD doesn't say what type of action applying poison is, so I put it as a free action with a cap of "once per round". Thus, no infinite poison application.
+1 ability damage is a better idea, I thought it'd be too underpowered. I was thinking mainly as a PC class, where ability damage and ability drain end up as the same thing (monster is dead afterwards either way). But it could be an NPC class, so I'll drop it to +1 ability damage.
Making it masterwork is also a good suggestion. Didn't really think about the idea of "masterwork poison", but it's worth doubling the cost since there's no other way to make something like that.
Oddly enough, this does make for a very good ranger PrC. Especially the TWF type... :o

It'd be somewhat useful for a stealthy character, but it doesn't really have any stealth skills. The assassin's good for sneaky poison use, the Venomrazor would just use them to enhance his combat ability.

McMouse
2005-07-09, 03:01 PM
The only problem I see with the class is the expense of its ingredients, namely high DC poisons. Most cheap poison has such a low DC as to be useless at higher levels, when this class makes the most of it's poison-using skills.

The poisons which are going to be useful to this class, in most cases are the ones with DC's higher than 20:
Purple Worm Poison
Deathblade
Dragon Bile
Black Lotus Extract

Prices on those four range from 700 to 4500 per dose. That cost alone is fairly restricting, especially when it's not garunteed to work. Personally, I would like to see an ability where every other level (or every third level), the Venomrazor got +1 to poison DCs... either that or make the +2 DC special ability stackable.

Just my two pence.

Hzurr
2005-07-09, 03:56 PM
but if you craft them yourself, you can make them for 1/3rd the price, so with the bonuses to craft poison that this class provides, the costs won't be insane.

But on that note, possibly reducing the cost of making poison to 1/4th or 1/6th?

The Glyphstone
2005-07-09, 04:05 PM
I was thinking 1/2. For the "super-poisons", the cost would be doubled, so it'd stay the same. And making the DC-boost ability stack is fair.

The Glyphstone
2005-07-10, 06:44 AM
Venomrazor V. 2.0


Hit Die: d8
Requirements: To become a Venomrazor, a character must fulfill the following requirements:
Alignment: Any nongood
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Craft(Alchemy) 9 ranks

Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Profession, Ride, Swim
Skill Points at each level: 4+ Int modifier.



Level *BAB * *Fort *Ref * Will * Special
1st * *+1 * * +2 * *+2 * *+0 * *Poison Use, Poison Affinity +1
2nd * *+2 * * +3 * *+3 * *+0 * *Poisonous Talent * *
3rd * *+3 * * +3 * *+3 * *+1 * *Poison Affinity +2 * *
4th * *+4 * * +4 * *+4 * *+1 * *Bonus Feat
5th * *+5 * * +4 * *+4 * *+1 * *Poison Affinity +3, Skilled Brewing
6th * *+6/+1 *+5 * *+5 * *+2 * *Poisonous Talent
7th * *+7/+2 *+5 * *+5 * *+2 * *Poison Affinity +4
8th * *+8/+3 *+6 * *+6 * *+2 * *Bonus Feat
9th * *+9/+4 *+6 * *+6 * *+3 * *Poison Affinity +5
10th * +10/+5 +7 * *+7 * *+3 * *Brewing Mastery, Poisonous Talent
* *

Poison Use: Venomrazors are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Poison Affinity: When making a Craft(Alchemy) check to create a dose of poison, a Venomrazor adds a +1 bonus to the total. This increases by +1 every odd level, for a total of +5 at 9th level. The Venomrazor also adds this bonus to any saves rolled vs. poisons or similar effects.

Poisonous Talent: At 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels, a Venomrazor can select a special ability from the following chart.
Rapid Application: Once per round, the Venomrazor can apply poison to his weapon as a free action.
Extra Potent: Poisons used by the Venomrazor that deal ability damage will deal an additional 1 point of ability damage if the target fails their initial Fortitude save, and another if they fail the save against secondary damage.
Longer Lasting: When a Venomrazor applies poison to a weapon, it retains its potency longer. The poison does not wear off until the weapon has struck twice, whether at one target or two.
Accelerated Onset: The Venomrazor's poisons take half as long to force a Fortitude save against the secondary damage (5 rounds instead of 10).
Improved Formula: All DC's for the poisons used by the Venomrazor increase by 2. This ability may be selected multiple times, and its effects stack.
Bonus Feat: Instead of selecting a special ability, the Venomrazor can select a bonus feat from the list of bonus feats allowed for fighters.

Bonus Feat: At 4th and 8th levels, a Venomrazor can select a Bonus feat from the list of bonus feats allowed for fighters.

Skilled Brewing: At 5th level, a Venomrazor becomes more skilled at brewing and mixing his own poisonous concotions. Any poisons made by the Venomrazor cost half the usual price, with a concurrent decrease in time.

Brewing Mastery: When a Venomrazor reaches 10th level, his skill in formulating and using poisons is at its peak. When manufacturing poison, the Venomrazor can choose to make an extra-strong dose. This costs twice as much as an ordinary dose would, and increases the size of iys damage die by 1 category ( so a poison that deals 1d4 Dex damage will deal 1d6 instead, or 2d6 will become 2d8 ). This does not affect poison that deals a stated amount of damage, or no damage at all. Combined with the Skilled Brewing ability, this means a Venomrazor can manufacture "ordinary" poison for half the normal price or invest the full amount to make a stronger variant.



So, opinions? Any DM's that'd use this in their game? Any players that'd want to convince their DM's to use this in their game? Horribly munchkinized?

IonizedChicken
2005-07-10, 07:57 AM
Saving throw bonuses and greater to skill bonuses significantly, and Brew Poison provides a partial skill bonus (Only to poison-making). As the assassin provides partial saving throw bonuses, at these levels i'de suggest doubling or alternating (+1/+2/+1/+2, etc.) the skill check bonuses for Brew Poison. Also, as this bonus is a Competence bonus (The most common, cheapest bonus), while an Assassin's bonus is Natural (A bonus classified as 'other'), it makes this an even less powerful ability.

The Glyphstone
2005-07-10, 08:37 AM
Right...I misread the Assassin entry. Consider the Craft(Alchemy) and save bonuses from Poison Affinity to be "no-type".