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JoshuaZ
2009-06-07, 03:58 PM
The Narrow Bridge was first studied by an order of monks who studied the border of life and death. The practitioners of The Narrow Bridge understand that death and life are more closely intertwined than most realize. Those trained in the proper martial arts can cross the narrow bridge that separates life from unlife. While most practitioners of The Narrow Bridge are living, it is not uncommon for undead martial warriors to also dabble in the techniques.

Although the discipline involves much use of negative energy and undeath, it also involves the use of positive energy and the ability to combat the undead. It is thus not wholly evil, but a mix of powers.

The great masters of the discipline realized the ease at which the discipline could be abused and so were very careful to not teach the discipline to many outsiders. Traditionally, a master would take on a single disciple at a time, one whose ethics and outlooks matched those of the master. However, over time the discipline has slowly become more widely practiced.

The Narrow Bridge was never taught at the Temple of Nine Swords. Due to its association with necromancy and the undead, Reshar disliked the discipline and thus never dedicated much time studying it although he did locate a master who was willing to teach him the basics. In addition to his own dislike, the highly specialized nature of much of the discipline and the reticence of masters to teach it has stopped many martial warriors from taking too much effort to master its techniques.

The associated skill of The Narrow Bridge is knowledge(religion).

The associated weapons are the bastard sword, battleaxe, greataxe, scythe, unarmed strike, and whip.

All Narrow Bridge maneuvers are supernatural unless stated otherwise.

There are two ways to master the discipline. The first is to have been trained in it. If you choose to make a martial adept that has already been trained in the Narrow Bridge discipline at character creation, you simply replace one discipline that adept could normally learn maneuvers from with the Narrow Bridge discipline. Note that The Narrow Bridge should generally be considered a replacement discipline for swordsages and then crusaders. The supernatural nature of the discipline make it potentially inappropriate as a as a starting discipline for warblades.

The other way is to seek out a master of the Narrow Bridge disciplineľa martial adept capable of using at least 5th-level maneuvers from the discipline. You must train for a month under the master and spend 1,000 xp at the end of your training. You gain the ability to learn maneuvers from the Narrow Bridge discipline. In addition, you may exchange your maneuvers known for maneuvers of the Narrow Bridge discipline. You may exchange one maneuver of each level, and the new maneuvers you learn must be of the same level as the exchanged maneuvers, unlike normal. The difficulty of finding an appropriate mentor is left to the DM to choose.

JoshuaZ
2009-06-07, 04:00 PM
The Narrow Bridge Manuever List

1st Level
Death to the Living: Strike- Deals 1d6 negative energy damage.
Peaceful End: Strike- deals extra damage against undead and deathless targets.
Soulshield: Stance- protects against effects from undead and death effects.
Live Without Life: Strike-Deals 1d6 damage and prevents the target from being healed.
Empower the Dead: Stance- Gives bonuses to allied undead.

2nd Level
Disrupt Necromantic Power: Strike- deals 2d6 extra damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells.
Putrefy the Flesh Strike-Deals extra damage over the course of multiple rounds depending on the creature type.
Fear of Death: Strike- Targets must make a will save or be frightened for 1d4 rounds.
Cross the Bridge: Stance - Mindless undead treat you as undead and you take less damage from some forms of vile damage.
Blind the Dead: Strike- Undead subject to this strike are unable to see you.
Burn the Dead: Strike-Targets take extra fire damage and undead with light vulnerability take further damage.

3rd Level
Strength of Life: Boost- Gain 1d10 temporary hit points +1 per an initiator level.
See Those who Have Yet to Die: Stance-Duplicates the Deathwatch spell.
Harness The Soul's Power: Strike-Gain effects similar to the spell Death Knell that you may keep for yourself or give to an ally.
Pierce Soul: Strike-Target must make a fortitude or be paralyzed.
Rebuking Blow: Strike-Target is subject to a rebuke undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level.
Turning Strike: Strike-Target is subject to a turn undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level.
Walk the Narrow Bridge: Stance- You are effected less by both negative and positive energy.

4th level
Momento Vixisti: Strike- Target undeas takes various penalties as it recalls life.
Life Drain: Strike- Target takes 1d6 extra damage and half the damage from the attack is changed into healing energy you may bestow on yourself or an ally.
The Flesh Still Lives Strike- Strike deals an extra 4d6 vile damage.
Die to Serve Strike- Strike deals extra 3d6 damage and if the target dies it becomes a temporary zombie which serves you.
Guardian of the Dead Stance- it becomes harder to rebuke or turn allied undead and non-allied undead have trouble creating spawn within 100 feet of you.
Disrupt the Flow Strike-Undead struck have their effective hit die for turning and rebuking purposes reduced by a function of a knowledge(religion) check.

Shared Souls Stance- You and designated allies do not fail saves unless all of you fail the saves.
Stand Against Death Counter- you substitute a knowledge religion check for a save against an undead being.

5th level
Even the Dead Fear Death: Strike- Undead take 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level and must make a will save or be panicked.
None Truly Control the Dead Forever: Strike - Target must make a will save or lose control of undead it controls.
Preserve the Soul: Stance- Duplicates the effects of the Death Ward spell.

6th level
Slash the Spirit Strike- Deals extra damage against incorporeal undead and ignores the miss chance against incorporeal beings.
Reflect Death: Counter- Reflects back against foe any death effects you are subject to.
Embrace the Vampire: Stance- gain DR 10 /silver or magic and other vampiric bonuses.
Scream of the Dying: Strike deals sonic damage and on target must make a will save or be shaken.

7th level
Return to the Grave: Stance- Allows you to make critical hits against undead.
Rebuke the Controller: Strike- Deals 6d6 damage to an undead being and deals extra damage to anyone controlling it.
Final Rest Strike- You deal 6d6 extra damage and undead must make a will save or be destroyed.


8th level
Fear of the Coming Oblivion: Strike- You deal 10d6 extra damage and the target must make a will save or be panicked.
The Flesh Crawls Strike- You deal an extra 12d6 damage and half the damage from the attack is vile damage.
Destroy the Source Strike destroys an undead target as well as its spawn.


9th level
Life is Precious: Strike- Deals an extra 15d6 damage and the target must make a fortitude save or die.

JoshuaZ
2009-06-07, 04:06 PM
The Narrow Bridge Maneuver List

First level

Death to the Living
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude half.

Your strike channels negative energy. You make a single melee attack. Your attack deals extra 1d6 negative energy damage +1 per 2 initiator levels. This strike allows a fortitude save for half damage of 11 + your wisdom modifier. Additionally, any being that fails its fortitude save becomes fatigued.


Peaceful End
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: One round
Save: None

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 1d6 damage against undead and deathless +1 per every 2 initiator levels. This damage is untyped. Against living beings this instead deals just 1d6 non-lethal damage.


Soulshield
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Initiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance your soul is more strongly intertwined with your body than normal. You gain a +2 bonus on all saves against supernatural and spell-like abilities from undead and gain a +2 bonus against all death effects and fear effects(these two bonuses do not stack), and natural 1s on death effects are not automatic failures. This is an extraordinary ability.


Live without Life
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 day/initiator level
Save: Fortitude partial

Some things do not make life worth living. One of which can be the slow steady degradation of one's flesh. You can show people just how unpleasant that can be.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this strike hits, you deal an extra 1d6 vile damage and your target must make a fortitude save (DC 11 + your Wisdom modifier). If the target fails, the target may not regain hit points for 1 day per initiator level or until the creature is healed at least 1 hit point magically.

Empower the Dead
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intitation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance any undead or deathless created, animated or summoned within 30 feet of you by an ally gain 2 extra hit points. These are permanent additional hit points for the created or animated undead

While any such undead remain within 30 feet of you they get a +2 bonus to turn resistance (which you may ignore when turning or rebuking them). The first time they leave the 30 foot radius this effect is permanently lost. The effect also terminates permanently when you leave this stance.

If your initiator level is at least 15 then when any such undead is animated or created you may take a free action to permanently give that undead a +2 enhancement bonus to strength.



2nd level


Disrupt Necromantic Power
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: One round
Save: None

You make a single melee attack. Your strike deals an extra 2d6 damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells. If your strike hits then you also get a +2 bonus on all saves on all necromancy spells or effects cast by the target for the next 1 round/initiator level.


Putrefy the Flesh
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/ every 2 initiator levels
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. Your strike causes flesh to decay at an accelerated rate. If you strike hits then your target takes an additional 1d8 damage if it is a corporeal undead, 1d6 if it is a construct made out of flesh either in whole or part (such as a Warforged, or a Flesh Golem), and an extra 1d4 against any other being made out of flesh (such as humanoids, monstrous humanoids, etc.) At the beginning of the target's next round and every round thereafter for rounds/ half your initiator level, the target must make a fortitude save of 12 + your wisdom modifier or take an additional die of damage of the same level. A single successful save ends this effect. This is an exception to the normal rule that constructs and undead are immune to fortitude saves that do not effect objects.

If this maneuver is instead used to strike a corpse the corpse immediately putrefies into a pile of bones and black, rotten muck.


Fear of Death
The Narrow Bridge (strike) [mind-affecting][fear]
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1d4 rounds
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 2d6 damage. If the strike deals damage, the target if living must make a will save (DC 12 + wisdom modifier) or be frightened for 1d4 rounds and then shaken for 1 round after that. If they save by 5 or less then the target is still shaken for 1 round.


Cross the Bridge
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance mindless undead treat you as undead (and thus will generally not attack you unless you attack them or they are ordered to attack). You also while in this stance gain a +2 circumstance bonus for any diplomacy check with an undead or deathless being. While in this stance you also register as undead for any divination effect or similar effect that would detect undead. Finally, any effect that would deal vile damage to you due to the creation of undead flesh (such as spells from the Necrotic Cyst line in Libris Mortis or some of the maneuvers in this discipline) the vile damage instead becomes non-lethal damage as your body automatically assimilates the undead flesh into itself.


Blind the Dead
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/ initiator levels
Save: See text

To initiate this maneuver you must make a single melee attack. The target struck if undead or deathless must make a will save (DC 12 + your wisdom modifier) or be unable to detect you by any means as if you had an effect identical to the spell Hide from Undead with your initiator level for your effective caster level. This effect terminates if you take any aggressive action towards that undead being. Only intelligent beings are allowed a save.


Burn the Dead
The Narrow Bridge (strike)[fire][light]
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

With your melee strike your weapon momentarily bursts into a blinding flash of light and fire. You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack does an extra 1d6 fire damage and the target struck must make a fortitude save (DC 12 + your wisdom modifier) or be dazzled for 2d6 rounds. Additionally, undead with any form of light vulnerability take an extra 1d6 damage and if have fewer hit die than half your initiator level are destroyed with no save.

A corpse that is hit by this strike is immediately consumed in a flash of fire leaving nothing but dust. The resulting flash causes all beings within 20 feet other than you to need to make a fortitude save or be dazzled for 2d6 rounds.


3rd level




Strength of Life
The Narrow Bridge (boost)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: You
Target: Personal
Duration: See text

This maneuver functions just like the spell False Life but with duration equal to 1 minute/initiator level.

See Those Who Have Yet to Die
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance you gain all the benefits of the Deathwatch spell.

Harness The Soul's Power
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: One round
Save: See text

You understand the power that exists in the bond between soul and body and can harness the resulting energy when that bond snaps.

To use this maneuver you must make a coup de grace attack (unlike a normal coup de grace, using this maneuver makes the coup de grace take only a standard action). The save DC for the coup de grace is increased by your wisdom modifier (if positive). If the target dies (either from a loss of hit points or a failure of their save), you gain all the benefits of the Death Knell spell with your initiator level as your effective caster level. For the duration of the effect your initiator level is also treated as 1 higher. As long as the duration has not yet expired you may transfer the benefits of this effect to any willing being with a touch. Doing so makes you lose all the benefits but the other being gains them for the remaining duration.

Alternatively, instead of gaining the benefits of Death Knell you may choose to recover one expended maneuver (possibly this one). If you are a crusader the maneuver recovered is automatically granted to you.

Pierce Soul
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/initiator level
Save: Fortitude partial

This strike disrupts temporarily the delicate bonds that normally connect soul, mind and body. You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful, the target must make a fortitude save (DC 13 + wisdom modifier) or be paralyzed for initiator/2 rounds. Whether or not they make the save, they take a -2 penalty on all saves against (mind-affecting) affects for 1 round /initiator level.


Rebuking Blow
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful the target is subject to the equivalent of a rebuke attempt with your your effective cleric level equal to your initiator level or your normal level for rebuking (if any), whichever is higher. The ability to use this strike does not count as the ability to rebuke undead for any prerequisite that requires the ability to rebuke undead.

Turning Strike
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful the target is subject to the equivalent of a turn attempt with your effective cleric level equal to your initiator level or your normal level for turning (if any), whichever is higher. The ability to use this strike does not count as the ability to turn undead for any prerequisite that requires the ability to turn undead.

Walk the Narrow Bridge
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance you take half as much of any damage you would get from positive energy or negative energy effects and are healed by half as much as you would be healed by positive energy and negative energy effects. You also have an effect identical to blindsight out to 30 feet that works only for any being capable of turning or rebuking undead (and so you can immediately tell if someone is able to turn or rebuke undead).

Additionally,while in this stance you subconsciously control the positive and negative energy around you. You and any ally within 60 feet is treated as having its effective cleric level as 2 higher for turning and rebuking purposes. Also, if you personally are capable of either turning or rebuking undead then while in this stance you can expend 2 turn or 2 rebuke attempts to instead do the other type (that is rebuke if you normally turn or turn if you normally rebuke) at effective cleric level half your normal effective cleric level (min 1). Also, you can move out of this stance to another stance as a move action if you expend a turn or rebuke attempt.




4th level


Momento Vixisti
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round / initiator level
Save: Will negates

You make a single melee attack. Your strike must hit a being that was formerly alive (whether now undead, deathless, a construct, etc.) The being must make a will save (DC 14 + wisdom modifier) or have the details of its past life come rushing back to it. It becomes briefly overwhelmed by the emotion and becomes aware of the mockery of what it once was. The target is stunned for 1d4 rounds (this is an exception to the normal rules that might make such a creature immune to stunning). If the target succeeds on its save by 5 or less it is instead dazed for 1 round (this is an exception to the normal rules that might make such a creature immune to daze).


Can someone who has studied latin more recently than me let me know if the Latin name here is correct? It was meant to be a play on Momento Mori but I'm not sure it is correct. It should be "Remember that you lived."

Life Drain
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. This strike does an extra 1d6 damage to a target. Additionally, half the damage dealt by the attack is temporarily stored in your weapon. You can for up to 1 round/initiator level take a swift action to transfer the drained life to yourself or an ally (using an ally requires being able to touch the ally with your weapon or to touch the ally with your hand while holding the weapon). Doing so heals you (or the ally) the stored amount (the healing power is neither positive or negative energy). You cannot have life stored simultaneously from more than 1 copy of this maneuver. Using another copy causes any preexisting life stored by you (whether in the same weapon or a different weapon) to be lost.

The Flesh Still Lives
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: None

You make a single melee attack. This strikes does an extra 4d6 damage to a target and half the resulting damage is vile damage as undead flesh grows into the wound.


Die to Serve
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: see text
Save: None

You make a single melee attack. This strike does an extra 3d6 damage against living creatures. Additionally, if the attack is successful and the being dies in the next minute and has a reasonably intact corpse then the being rises 1 round after death as a zombie under your control. Zombies created by this last 1 round/initiator level from time of rising before crumbling to dust. Zombies controlled in this fashion do not count against your total controlled undead for any purpose that limits your maximum number or amount of undead controlled (such as animate dead or rebuking undead).

Guardian of the Dead
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Initiation:1 swift action
Range: 100 feet
Target: Yourself, allies within 100 feet, undead within 100 feet
Duration: Stance

This stance provides two benefits: First, while in this stance any undead or deathless in 30 feet that are allied with you or controlled by you (or are you) gain a +4 bonus on turn and rebuke attempts and cannot be destroyed by turn attempts.

Additionally, any effect by any undead not allied with you that would create spawn within 100 feet of you or any attempt to create or animate undead by a being that is not allied with you must make a charisma check opposed to your initiator level + wisdom modifier or the attempt to create a spawn or animate dead automatically fails.


Disrupt the Flow
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Save: Will partial, see text.

You disrupt the flow of a negative energy to an undead making it more vulnerable. You make a single melee attack. If you succeed on your melee attack, you make a knowledge(religion) check. The undead being takes additional damage equal to your check/2 and for rounds equal to your initiator level /2 has its total hit die for turning and rebuking attempts treated as reduced by the check result /4. Multiple uses of this strike do not stack.

Alternatively, this strike disrupts the ability to channel the positive and negative energy that a being is able to consciously channel. Any target which is able to rebuke or turn undead must make a will save (DC 14 + your wisdom modifier) or become unable to turn or rebuke undead for 1 minute/initiator level. Also, if the target fails its save by at least 5 then it loses 1d6 daily uses of either turning or rebuking.


Shared Souls
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level:Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

When you enter this stance you designate up to one ally per every 5 initiator levels. While at least two of those allies (possibly yourself) are in 60 feet of you and you are subject to the same either (mind-affecting) or (death)
effect and one of you makes the save the other one automatically makes their save also even if they would not have. This does not apply to effects that only one of you needs to make a save on (such as if one of you were protected by a Death Ward spell). You can as a swift action change which allies you have designated as sharing souls.


Stand Against Death
The Narrow Bridge (counter)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: Instantaneous

You may use this maneuver when you are subject to either an attack by an undead or deathless being or are called on to make a save against a death effect or a supernatural or spell-like ability used by an undead or deathless being. If used in response to an attack, you make a knowledge(religion) check and add 1/2 of the check result as a bonus to your AC.

If used in response to having to make a save, you substitute a knowledge(religion) check for rolling the save. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the save if being using the ability is an undead or deathless of a type you have recognized due to a knowledge(religion) check. You get a +1 circumstance bonus if you recognized the type of being due to a different knowledge skill. The DC is the same as would be for the save. Since this is a skill check, a 1 is not an automatic failure and a 20 is not an automatic success.



5th level



Even the Dead Fear Death
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 1 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1d4 rounds
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. Your attack deals 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level against a target undead or deathless. Additionally, if the attack hits, that being must make a will save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier) or be panicked for 1d4 rounds.

None Truly Control the Dead Forever
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: See text
Target: One creature, see text
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round/initiator
Save: Will negates

You make a single melee attack. If your melee attack succeeds, the target must make a will save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier). If it fails, it loses 1d6 undead it controls starting with those with the most hit die. For each undead lost in this way, the target takes takes additional damage equal to the number of hit die the undead had. Additionally, if this additional damage or the original strike slays the target then any undead freed by the strike transfer temporarily to your control for 1 round/initiator level.


Preserve the Soul
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance your soul is particularly strongly tied to your body. You are treated as being under effects identical to the spell Death Ward with your initiator level as your effective caster level.



6th level



Scream of the Dying
The Narrow Bridge (strike)[sonic][mind-affecting][fear]
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Save: Will partial

Your weapon vibrates as you strike, echoing the screams of the dead and dying. You make a single melee attack. This strikes deals an extra 5d6 sonic damage and whether or not the strike hits the target must make a will save (DC 16 + your wisdom modifier) or become shaken for 2d4 rounds.


Slash the Spirit
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 3d6 damage (but 7d6 if the target is an incorporeal undead). Additionally, when making this strike against an incorporeal foe (whether or not it is undead), your attack is treated as having the Ghost Touch property.


Reflect Death
The Narrow Bridge (counter)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Range: See text
Target: One creature, see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text


You initiate this counter when you are subject to any necromantic effect or death effect. The creator of the effect is subject to an identical effect (with the same save DC etc.) If they fail their save you then get a +4 bonus on your save.

Embrace the Vampire
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6
Prerequisites: 2 The Narrow Bridge maneuver
Intiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You take on some of the aspects of a vampire. While in this stance, you gain DR 10/ silver or magic and get a +4 racial bonus to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Any melee attack you make that deals damage causes you to heal 1 hit point. You can be turned (but not rebuked) like any undead being with any form of successful turning making you lose this stance and being unable to resume the stance for 1d6 rounds (if you are able to be turned this occurs in addition to any other results of being turned).




7th level



Return to the Grave
The Narrow Bridge (stance)
Level: Crusader 7, Swordsage 7
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Initiation:1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance


This stance grants three benefits. First, While in this stance you may make critical hits against undead and deathless. To confirm such a critical hit you make a knowledge(religion) check and use that in place of a roll to confirm. If you have some other ability that allows you to make critical hits against undead or deathless, you may make the attack roll to confirm and make the knowledge(religion) check and then choose which roll to use.

Second, you may each round make an additional attack of opportunity against undead or deathless without it counting against your normal limit in number of attacks of opportunity.

Third, while in this stance, your critical threat range for any weapon associated with the discipline is increased by 1 against all targets.

Rebuke the Controller
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 7, Swordsage 7
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 6d6 damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is an undead being under someone's control then the controller takes additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt to the target +1 additional damage for every hit die the target being has and +1 per an initiator level.

Final Rest
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 7, Swordsage 7
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 6d6 damage. If the target is undead or deathless it must make a will save with DC equal to 17 + your wisdom modifier or be destroyed. Additionally, any being that dies within 24 hours of being subject to this strike has difficulty having the corpse turned into undead or deathless or being resurrected. Any attempt to create undead, animate undead or resurrect or raise the dead being must succeed on a caster level check (DC 15 + your initiator level) to succeed.




8th level


Fear of the Coming Oblivion
The Narrow Bridge (strike) [mind-affecting][fear]
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round/initiator level
Save: Will partial

You make a single melee attack. Your successful melee attack deals an extra 10d6 damage and if the target is living must make a will save against (DC 18 + your wisdom modifier) or be panicked for 3d6 rounds. Also, any being that fails its save or succeeds on its save by less than 5 automatically loses 1d3 readied maneuvers (if it has any maneuvers).


The Flesh Crawls
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 4 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial

You make a single melee attack. This strikes does an extra 12d6 damage to a target. If the target fails a fortitude (DC 18 + wisdom modifier) save then half the damage from the attack is vile damage as undead flesh grows into the wound.

The undead flesh is active and constantly squirms and writhes producing a disgusting sensation. While any of the vile damage from this strike is still unhealed, the target takes a -2 penalty to dexterity, a -4 penalty to all concentration checks, and a -2 penalty on all charisma based skill checks.

The undead flesh also acts as a conduit for necromantic power. While any of the vile damage from this strike remains the target takes a -2 penalty on all saves against necromancy spells or effects and any necromancy spells, spell-like abilities or other necromancy effects that would be subject to spell resistance (such as certain mysteries) automatically penetrate any spell resistance the individual has.

If the target has vile damage from multiple sources, vile damage from this strike is healed last.

Destroy the Source
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Prerequisites: 5 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One undead creature, but see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Will partial

You channel disruptive necromantic impulses with the force of your blow. To initiate this maneuver you must make a single melee attack. If you hit an undead being, that being takes an additional 10d6 damage and must make a will save (DC 18 + your wisdom modifier). If the target fails the will save, it is destroyed, and the necromantic energy cascades through to the creature's spawn. Any spawn created by the creature are treated to being subject to the same effect as if they had been struck by this maneuver. For purposes of this maneuver, spawn are any creature created by supernatural means that arise from a creature's templates or creature type, not class features. (For example, ghouls created by a ghoul or new bodaks created by a bodak would count as spawn, but undead animated by a lich using animate dead would not count.)



9th level




Life is Precious
The Narrow Bridge (strike) [death]
Level: Crusader 9, Swordsage 9
Prerequisites: 5 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round/initiator level
Save: Fortitude partial

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 15d6 damage and if the attack is successful the must make a fortitude save (DC 19 + your wisdom modifier) or die. If the target has fewer hit die than half your initiator level it dies with no save. A targets that dies from this attack (either from the damage or from failing their save) rises as zombies under your control for 1 round/initiator level before crumbling to dust. Zombies controlled this way do not count against any total control pool such as for animate dead.

Trodon
2009-06-07, 04:09 PM
wow this is cool i will probably use this in a game

unosarta
2009-06-07, 04:15 PM
um, just so you know, no class gives access to stances past about 8th level ones, mostly because there are no ninth level stances. which means that embrace the wraith will only be useable with a feat, or with crazy prestige classing.

unless you are eventually going to write up a base class for them, in which case, I will just be wrong.

JoshuaZ
2009-06-07, 04:18 PM
um, just so you know, no class gives access to stances past about 8th level ones, mostly because there are no ninth level stances. which means that embrace the wraith will only be useable with a feat, or with crazy prestige classing.

unless you are eventually going to write up a base class for them, in which case, I will just be wrong.

No. That was deliberate. Incorporeality at will is extremely powerful. It was intended to only be easily taken by either an epic character or someone who burned a feat slot. (The other option I thought of was to have it at 8th level but only have it be usable a certain amount of time daily which doesn't fit with the general way stances function).

JoshuaZ
2009-06-10, 11:12 AM
Ok. I've cleaned up the wording of some of the maneuvers. I'd appreciate input on the balance level. In particular, I'm worried that the discipline might be broken in an undead heavy campaign and too weak in a campaign without many undead. I think the maneuvers focusing on living beings help make up for that but I'm not sure.

So any other concerns, comments or criticism?

Iferus
2009-06-16, 08:51 AM
How does one gain these maneuvres? Is it all available to any martial character? This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389) discipline requires a feat to enter- perhaps something for you to consider?

JoshuaZ
2009-07-09, 12:05 PM
How does one gain these maneuvres? Is it all available to any martial character? This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389) discipline requires a feat to enter- perhaps something for you to consider?

Possibly. I know that one common method people use when they let a martial adept take a different discipline is just swap it out for one of the disciplines they would have normally. However the truth is that there's nothing unbalanced with just letting them take additional disciplines as they please. In fact, a character who takes maneuvers from a wide variety of disciplines will actually generally be slightly weaker than a character who focuses on a few. This is because the character will have difficulty qualifying for that many high level maneuvers.

In any event, if one is using a non-standard discipline one should presumably also have some sort of RP explanation for where one picked it up from.

What I'd really like is some feedback on the power level. I'm not sure if this is overpowered, underpowered or just right.

Cedrass
2009-07-09, 12:43 PM
I'm kinda rushed right now, but what I can tell you is this:

- DCs for maneuvers work much like spells' DCs, it's 10 + Maneuver Level + Ability modifier. So your DCs should also follow that rule. Ie: Momento Vixisti has a base DC of 12, it should be 14.
- You have too many maneuvers. It makes for a discipline with a lot more versatility than others, which results IMO in a much stronger Discipline.
- When you describe your Maneuvers, you should really precise if a "Single Melee Attack" or a "Melee Attack" is required, or it could lead to confusion and slow down play when at the table. It could also lead to some abuse by players.

Aside from those things, as I see it now, it's really flavorful. When I get more time, I'll read more in detail.

JoshuaZ
2009-07-09, 04:56 PM
I'm kinda rushed right now, but what I can tell you is this:

- DCs for maneuvers work much like spells' DCs, it's 10 + Maneuver Level + Ability modifier. So your DCs should also follow that rule. Ie: Momento Vixisti has a base DC of 12, it should be 14.
- You have too many maneuvers. It makes for a discipline with a lot more versatility than others, which results IMO in a much stronger Discipline.
- When you describe your Maneuvers, you should really precise if a "Single Melee Attack" or a "Melee Attack" is required, or it could lead to confusion and slow down play when at the table. It could also lead to some abuse by players.

Aside from those things, as I see it now, it's really flavorful. When I get more time, I'll read more in detail.

Ok. Fixed the DCs and specified single melee attack when intended.

Regarding the number of maneuvers: Is that really going to be an issue? So many of the manuevers are highly specialized and aren't going to be useful aside from very narrow circumstances (roughly half are basically useless if there aren't any undead or deathless around). If it is a problem is there any way to fix it? I'm loathe to simply remove material.

Edit: If I took Iferus's suggestion and required a feat to take the maneuvers would that be enough to deal with the versatility from the large number of maneuvers?

JoshuaZ
2009-07-20, 05:42 PM
Ok, I've added a feat requirement and cleaned up some of the maneuvers. What do people think now?

Death's Shadow
2009-07-20, 07:01 PM
First I would like to say, excellent discipline.. now I have one concern.

Why are you requiring an adapt to possess a feat to gain access to a discipline? Yes the discipline has a good number of maneuvers that have to be chosen by a Swordsage, Crusader or Warblade that fits within the Swordsage's maximum of 25 known, Crusader's 14 and a Warblade's 13 as well as compete against the myriad of other disciplines both from the ToB as well as from Homebrewed sources. But my concern is that by requiring them to have one feat to gain access to an excellent discipline may very well push them towards other disciplines like the ToB's Tiger Claw or the homebrewed Black Lotus or others that do not have this restriction thus freeing up a feat for usage and becoming all the more appealing.

I do like the idea of having to use a feat to gain access to the 9th tier stance, first one I have seen, Congrats.

I plan on playing a Swordsage that uses this discipline very soon in fact and just wanted to voice my concern on the one fact.

JoshuaZ
2009-07-21, 10:09 AM
First I would like to say, excellent discipline.. now I have one concern.

Why are you requiring an adapt to possess a feat to gain access to a discipline? Yes the discipline has a good number of maneuvers that have to be chosen by a Swordsage, Crusader or Warblade that fits within the Swordsage's maximum of 25 known, Crusader's 14 and a Warblade's 13 as well as compete against the myriad of other disciplines both from the ToB as well as from Homebrewed sources. But my concern is that by requiring them to have one feat to gain access to an excellent discipline may very well push them towards other disciplines like the ToB's Tiger Claw or the homebrewed Black Lotus or others that do not have this restriction thus freeing up a feat for usage and becoming all the more appealing.

I do like the idea of having to use a feat to gain access to the 9th tier stance, first one I have seen, Congrats.

I plan on playing a Swordsage that uses this discipline very soon in fact and just wanted to voice my concern on the one fact.

Well, feel free to ignore the feat requirement if you don't like it. It was suggested by some of the individuals in the thread. Could people give more input on whether or not they feel a feat or some other special requirement should be necessary?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 10:33 AM
Well, feel free to ignore the feat requirement if you don't like it. It was suggested by some of the individuals in the thread. Could people give more input on whether or not they feel a feat or some other special requirement should be necessary?

Honestly, the discipline choices are flavor more than anything else. The warblade is the tough, skilled fighter-replacement, the crusader is the divine-inspired, defensive paladin-replacement, and the swordsage is the mystical, mysterious monk-replacement...so the warblade is the only one with tough, skilled Iron Heart, the crusader is the only one with the divine-inspired, defensive Devoted Spirit, and the swordsage is the only one with the mystical, mysterious Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand.

The real measure of balance here is the number of disciplines they have access to--you can always pick up maneuvers from an out-of-class discipline with feats and PrCs, and the existing synergies don't really apply to new disciplines. If you swap out an existing discipline for this one, you definitely don't need a feat. If you just give it out to anyone, you probably don't need a feat; all three initiators get it, so like Stone Dragon it's not anyone's schtick and so doesn't really need to be protected.

I'd say let anyone access it without a feat, personally, but it's your call.

JoshuaZ
2009-07-22, 04:41 PM
Ok. I've removed the feat requirement and cleaned up some wording further.


I plan on playing a Swordsage that uses this discipline very soon in fact and just wanted to voice my concern on the one fact.

Well, I'm currently between games so please let me know how it turns out.

SurlySeraph
2009-07-23, 11:37 AM
Personally, I'd stay with the feat requirement to take it since it has so many maneuvers; it's quite a versatile discipline. The Unquiet Twilight (boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11645927&postcount=1) homebrew discipline is similar, but more about evil necromancy than balance. All in all, I quite like this. I'll bookmark it and may well use it.

Eloel
2009-07-23, 01:56 PM
I would make it an alternate choice for Devoted Spirit myself. "Upon entering Crusader class, the initiator must choose either Devoted Spirit or The Narrow Bridge discipline to master. The other discipline becomes barred to the initiator" kinda thing.

Apropos
2010-02-16, 10:28 PM
This seems to be more of a Swordsage discipline than anything else. And I think(hope) that was the creator's intention:

All Narrow Bridge maneuvers are supernatural unless stated otherwise.

I don't know about you, but I was pretty sure swordsages were the only ones who normally get supernatural maneuvers.

Although I would really just allow it to be swapped for any discipline the same way most of the homebrew disciplines are. Because, as the OP mentioned earlier, the discipline is very circumstantial and spreading out maneuver choices over different disciplines makes your character severely weaker.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-16, 11:18 PM
This seems to be more of a Swordsage discipline than anything else. And I think(hope) that was the creator's intention:


I don't know about you, but I was pretty sure swordsages were the only ones who normally get supernatural maneuvers.

Although I would really just allow it to be swapped for any discipline the same way most of the homebrew disciplines are. Because, as the OP mentioned earlier, the discipline is very circumstantial and spreading out maneuver choices over different disciplines makes your character severely weaker.

It probably would be a Swordsage discipline. I suppose since this is getting added to The Age of Warriors book, I should maybe just throw in The Demented One's wording for alternate disciplines with the caveat that it should normally be applied just to swordsages.

Edit: Done.

DracoDei
2010-02-17, 02:48 AM
Demented One's mechanic still allows for a discipline to be limited to specific classes, it just says how those classes get access to it, so that crusaders don't end up with too many options (since their lack of options is one of the things that balances them).

JoshuaZ
2010-02-17, 11:49 AM
Demented One's mechanic still allows for a discipline to be limited to specific classes, it just says how those classes get access to it, so that crusaders don't end up with too many options (since their lack of options is one of the things that balances them).

Hmm, that actually raises an issue I had not thought about. Although the discipline seems thematically ok for crusaders, it is a very flexible discipline (a lot of maneuvers and a lot of variation in the type of damage dealt). Is letting crusaders have access potentially wrecking their balance?

DracoDei
2010-02-17, 12:41 PM
I had the same concern about Falling Anvil (does Bludgeoning, Electricity, and Fire, all at range, plus a host of negative status effects and defenses). The message I seemed to be getting from people was "Don't worry about it." Then again Falling Anvil (of the classes in the actual ToB) is aimed at Sword Sages, so you might take that with a grain of salt. You might say that you have to give up TWO other disciplines to access it, but I don't really know.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-17, 12:48 PM
I had the same concern about Falling Anvil (does Bludgeoning, Electricity, and Fire, all at range, plus a host of negative status effects and defenses). The message I seemed to be getting from people was "Don't worry about it." Then again Falling Anvil (of the classes in the actual ToB) is aimed at Sword Sages, so you might take that with a grain of salt. You might say that you have to give up TWO other disciplines to access it, but I don't really know.

Hmm, probably fine then. There are three maneuvers that are relevant for this purpose, one that deals fires, but mainly to undead, one that deals sonic, and one that dispells magic. So probably ok.

Danzig
2010-06-23, 10:40 PM
(in character) Hi there, I'm Danzig Nyttafjell, battlemage, and self-proclaimed Nemesis of the Dead.
(out of character) Great discipline, I love how it can cut both ways ...That said, I don't suppose you could include more anti-undead themed maneuvers? It does seem to favour necromancy and creation/bolstering/control of the undead more than combating them. Like, for instance at 8th level, another straight-up anti-undead strike would go really well. Among other levels...

Just something to chew on.

JoshuaZ
2010-06-28, 05:28 PM
(in character) Hi there, I'm Danzig Nyttafjell, battlemage, and self-proclaimed Nemesis of the Dead.
(out of character) Great discipline, I love how it can cut both ways ...That said, I don't suppose you could include more anti-undead themed maneuvers? It does seem to favour necromancy and creation/bolstering/control of the undead more than combating them. Like, for instance at 8th level, another straight-up anti-undead strike would go really well. Among other levels...

Just something to chew on.

Well, there's actually a discussion going on in the Age of Warriors thread about reducing the total number of maneuvers because it is already larger than standard for a discipline. I don't think fitting in more would really be a great idea at this point (although I agree that an 8th level anti-undead strike would be nice).

Danzig
2010-07-02, 07:42 PM
"Shout... shout... let it all out... these are the things I can do without..."

In response to the calls for this discipline to pare back some of the maneuvers, I present a short list of the maneuvers and stances you could afford to lose, IMO (with reasons).

Avoid Death's Touch - Already have a decent anti-undead stance at 1st level, also this is too dependent on movement, and the payoff really isn't that impressive either.

Channel The Power - Too dependent on either the presence of a cleric in the party, or having cleric levels.

Blind The Dead - Why blind the dead when you can simply do extra damage to them, or destroy certain ones outright?

Fear of Death - Fear is no guarantee of victory in and of itself, and indeed, certain targets are completely immune to fear effects. There's a discipline out there that could use a fear effect like this and it's more in line with the theme, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.

Scream of the Dying - Sonic damage is more in line with a sound-based discipline like Lost Lyrics or Holy Word, and shaken isn't really worth it for one target. Once again, the fear immunity of certain targets would apply here.

All Things Come To An End - Doesn't really fit with the theme of this class (undeath), being more suited for something like Solaris Arcanum

Stand Against Death - Sure, a counter that replaces a save against certain attacks is handy, but it's only a counter against one attack. And the save bonus isn't that impressive.

Momento Vixisti - First, undead can't be stunned or dazed, and secondly, even if they were, it's no guarantee they are even that helpless. Certain undead (like for instance Angel of Decay) have dangerous abilities that are active non-stop.

The Flesh Still Lives - With a few exceptions, vile damage seems to be more the province of evil magic rather than necromancy (especially corrupt magic). Not to mention, being able to do 1 less die of non-vile damage and raise the slain target as a zombie (Die To Serve) seems like a much more attractive option, as does Life Drain.

Chill of Death - Cold damage, while having the image of "chill of the grave " to it, would be better suited to a discipline like Placid Lake (which utilizes cold). Unless, however, you were going for something approximating Kelgore's Grave Mist or Chill Touch...?

Embrace The Wraith - Honestly, no discipline I've ever seen has had anything at 9th level besides one mighty strike. Although, I did see one which had four of those at 9th level. This would be better as an epic feat for this discipline.

Now, as to my recommendations, I would say that to balance it out, every level (except 9th) should have at least two or more anti-undead maneuvers or stances, to balance out the pro-necromancy stuff. If a level has a necromantic stance like Embrace The Vampire, it should have the antithetic opposite as a stance available.

This would mean there would be a few anti-undead maneuvers added to the higher levels to balance it out, as the lower-level ones are adequately represented. 8th level is sorely lacking, especially.

Just my two cents, hope the input helps.... \m/

DracoDei
2010-07-03, 08:03 AM
I don't think you should cut anything. Do the 2 for 1 if necessary, but don't cut out anything unless it really is something that really doesn't work in the first place.

Having skimmed the first part of the previous post I would say that lack of options other than dealing damage (or the occasional SoD) is a PROBLEM that most people have with melee types. Thus "Blind the Dead" is exactly the sort of thing that SHOULDN'T go.

Danzig
2010-07-03, 11:47 AM
DracoDei, I'm with you on the "don't cut anything", but if we needed to, those are just my choices for cutting. I understand JoshuaZ has created a discipline that cuts both ways when it comes to undeath. Since the character I play is a vampire hunter and a warblade in addition to being a battlemage (a homebrew class I posted at both D&D wikis), and he quests in a largely-undead city ruled by a vampire lord, you can understand my interest in this class. That's why I spoke up about balancing it more to reflect his statement, about the Narrow Bridge not being just about evil necromancy, but a mix of powers. Since we apparently have to do a little pruning back on the number of maneuvers in this discipline in the first place before we could add anything, that's why I wrote the list I posted.

I'll be watching to see what else happens here....

DragoonWraith
2010-07-03, 12:13 PM
Maybe make two related disciplines, one pro-undead, the other anti-undead, but make them accept each other as pre-requisites? Might work.

Danzig
2010-07-03, 03:13 PM
Maybe make two related disciplines, one pro-undead, the other anti-undead, but make them accept each other as pre-requisites? Might work.

That's actually kind of the idea I was thinking of. And since the two disciplines are related, it could be encompassed by the name Fearful Symmetry. If it was all still one discipline, you could always state that one or the other path must be chosen, with maybe a stance or two (like Cross The Bridge) actually overlapping the two, but all strikes, boosts or counters, and likely most (if not all) stances as well being barred to a practitioner of the other side. That means, of course, that there would be two 9th-level strikes, as opposed to one, but only one would ever be chosen, depending on your position regarding undeath.

Actually, if it was all still one discipline, Fearful Symmetry would work just fine as a name, as it sums up what JoshuaZ was trying to express, to my knowledge.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-03, 03:18 PM
No, I like the idea of someone having both abilities - but if the discipline is twice as large, it should probably be 'worth' two disciplines, and if it's 'worth' two disciplines, someone might just want the thematic half, which would mean having two disciplines might work better.

Danzig
2010-07-03, 04:20 PM
Well, either/or, as long as both sides of the pro/anti-undead dichotomy get their due in some fashion. As it stands, the discipline is probably too large to be considered a single discipline, yet probably not quite enough for two in their own right. There are obvious gaps in the maneuver list at certain levels for both sides, largely for the anti-undead maneuvers; the pro-undead 9th-level maneuver would obviously need to be created, to be the rival of the competing discipline's Final Rest, among others.

So, are we all in agreement, then?

Danzig
2010-07-03, 04:53 PM
Since an anti-undead discipline is my personal choice I've decided to show only the maneuvers and stances that would work to that effect, to show us what would need to be added to make this half of these two disciplines complete. Obviously, at certain levels, including first and eighth, there needs to be some content added. Also, you may note revisionary caveats (in parentheses) for a couple strikes and stances. Since these are ones that sit on the fence, they could probably be split up into two separate ones.

1st Level

Peaceful End: Strike- deals extra damage against undead and deathless targets. (Only against undead; deathless are powered by positive energy)
Soulshield: Stance- protects against effects from undead and death effects.
Avoid Death's Touch: Stance-Gives a 20% miss chance against attacks from undead as long as you moved at least 5 feet in the previous round.

2nd Level

Disrupt Necromantic Power: Strike- deals 2d6 extra damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells. (Once again, deathless are powered by positive energy and not subject to this if revised)
Walk the Narrow Bridge: Stance- You are effected less by both negative and positive energy. (Less affected by negative energy only)
Channel the Power: Stance - Allies ability to rebuke or turn undead are improved. (Only for turning)
Blind the Dead: Strike- Undead subject to this strike are unable to see you.
Burn the Dead: Strike-Targets take extra fire damage and undead with light vulnerability take further damage.

3rd Level

Strength of Life: Boost- Gain 1d10 temporary hit points +1 per an initiator level.
See Those who Have Yet to Die: Stance-Duplicates the Deathwatch spell.
Turning Strike: Strike-Target is subject to a turn undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level.

4th level

Momento Vixisti: Strike- Target undeas takes various penalties as it recalls life.
Guardian of the Dead Stance- it becomes harder to rebuke or turn allied undead and non-allied undead have trouble creating spawn within 100 feet of you. (The interference with spawning would work on its own, since no undead hunter willingly allies with undead)
Disrupt the Flow Strike-Undead struck have their effective hit die for turning and rebuking purposes reduced by a function of a knowledge(religion) check. (Obviously for both, but not many undead hunters rebuke the undead)
Shared Souls Stance- You and designated allies do not fail saves unless all of you fail the saves.
Stand Against Death Counter- you substitute a knowledge religion check for a save against an undead being.

5th level

Even the Dead Fear Death: Strike- Undead take 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level and must make a will save or be panicked.
Preserve the Soul: Stance- Duplicates the effects of the Death Ward spell.

6th level

Slash the Spirit Strike- Deals extra damage against incorporeal undead and ignores the miss chance against incorporeal beings.
Reflect Death: Counter- Reflects back against foe any death effects you are subject to.

7th level

Return to the Grave: Stance- Allows you to make critical hits against undead.
Rebuke the Controller: Strike- Deals 6d6 damage to an undead being and deals extra damage to anyone controlling it.

8th level

No known anti-undead maneuvers or stances here.

9th level

Final Rest Strike- You deal 15d6 extra damage and undead must make a will save or be destroyed.

Anyway, for an anti-undead discipline, that's a good start.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-04, 12:01 AM
Uhhh.... I was making suggestions for JoshuaZ. The author. Who, as far as I've seen, hasn't agreed to any particular changes as of yet. I think you ought to wait for his opinion before going ahead and doing it yourself.

Danzig
2010-07-04, 11:36 AM
Dude, that's who I am waiting on. I'm just here to offer suggestions and feeback. After all, this is his discipline, not mine. But in the case he does one or the other, I just felt like tossing out ideas one where he could start.

JoshuaZ
2010-07-04, 03:46 PM
Sorry about the late reply. I exist but have intermittent internet access at the moment. These remarks may not be as organized as I'd like.

There's a lot of different advice being given here, not all of which is in a single direction, so I'm not quite sure what to do. I've taken out the Bloody Wound maneuver from level 1 full out since I don't think it fits that well, and I agree that reducing the number of maneuvers may be a good idea. However, I agree with Dracodei that substantially removing some maneuvers would probably damage the flavor a lot. The idea of the 2-1 swap seems interesting, but I don't think the discipline is that valuable to make people pay that much, and the result would likely be no one taking the discipline at all.

I don't think there are enough maneuvers to split into two separate disciplines, and I'd be very worried that a discipline that was completely anti-undead would be too narrow focus for a discipline. A crusader for example would probably never take such a discipline. I'm also not sure there's any actual balance issue with having a discipline that has a lot of maneuvers as long as the maneuvers themselves aren't very general.

If maneuvers are going to be removed, Avoid Death's Touch at level 1 by the logic given by Danzig seems like a good candidate to remove since as Danzig points out there's already a stance at that level which is anti-undead.

All Things Come To An End fits in with a general theme of death, but possibly only in a tenuous fashion (seeing the end of spells as part of inevitable end of all things may be pushing it).

The point that Channel the Power is very narrow in purpose seems like a very relevant one also.

I'm not such a fan of Danzig's attempt to break off a separate anti-undead discipline. First, I think it will be too focused for most campaigns: a specialized discipline is ok if it has substantial uses outside the immediate narrow context. Second, the changes seem to push too much to a very one-sided view of how an undead hunter might interact with the walking dead and with those who use the darker side of things. See or example the remark about modifying Channel the Power to only alter turning but not rebuking. Thus, for example, a dread necromancer who fights against evil undead even as they care about their own somewhat self-centered goals would strike me as a perfectly reasonable character who should benefit from this sort of thing. If Danzig or others want to use this discipline as a starting point to spin off an anti-undead discipline by all means feel free to use the material and modify it as you see it.

Regarding the doing of vile damage as undead flesh formation, yes I know it is rare, but there's a whole line of 10 spells and a feat in Libris Mortis that focus on this (the necrotic cyst line), and there's some other official stuff that uses it. I prefer keeping The Flesh Still Lives as it amounts to a low level version of the later The Flesh Crawls maneuver.

Right now, what I'm leaning towards is the following, removing a small number of maneuvers, and possibly adding a single anti-undead strike at 8th level (although I don't have an obvious idea about what that should be).

Maneuvers to be removed: Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End

Maneuvers to consider removing: Channel the Power, Embrace the Wraith, Chill of Death.

Another option would be to combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge into a single third level stance rather than two second level stances and will also deal with the very narrow purpose issue of Channel the Power.

If I remove "Chill of Death" I think I may increase the hit die for "Screams of the Dying" and move that up to 6th level so there's at least one strike at that level which isn't focused on harming undead. I'm a bit partial to the idea of a maneuver that does sonic damage from the screams of dead souls, so I'm not that included to remove Screams entirely.

Right now, most reasonable thing seems to be taking out Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End, Chill of Death. Combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge. Make Embrace the Wraith something separate that could only be gained by a special feat. And add an 8th level anti-undead strike whose name and exact details are open to suggestions.

Danzig
2010-07-04, 04:45 PM
Right now, what I'm leaning towards is the following, removing a small number of maneuvers, and possibly adding a single anti-undead strike at 8th level (although I don't have an obvious idea about what that should be).

Maneuvers to be removed: Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End

Maneuvers to consider removing: Channel the Power, Embrace the Wraith, Chill of Death.

Another option would be to combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge into a single third level stance rather than two second level stances and will also deal with the very narrow purpose issue of Channel the Power.

If I remove "Chill of Death" I think I may increase the hit die for "Screams of the Dying" and move that up to 6th level so there's at least one strike at that level which isn't focused on harming undead. I'm a bit partial to the idea of a maneuver that does sonic damage from the screams of dead souls, so I'm not that included to remove Screams entirely.

Right now, most reasonable thing seems to be taking out Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End, Chill of Death. Combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge. Make Embrace the Wraith something separate that could only be gained by a special feat. And add an 8th level anti-undead strike whose name and exact details are open to suggestions.

Truth be told, I rather prefer the positive/negative and pro/anti-undeath dichotomies you have here in this single discipline. So, the removals, combinations, and upgrades you gave the nod to, and the addition at 8th level, they sound fair enough to me.

...Oh yeah, I remember the necrotic cyst spells. I actually own Libris Mortis myself, that's why I remarked that vile damage is more the province of evil spells, rather than exclusively. But I concede your point.

As to what form an 8th-level anti-undead maneuver would take, you'd likely have to examine what you already created and come up with the next logical step. I'm not sure I'm the right guy to ask about this kind of thing. I've never really designed homebrew martial maneuvers; spells are more my kind of thing, especially battle magic. But, I may be able to make a few suggestions after I read over the lower-level content....

Danzig
2010-07-10, 01:14 AM
...how about this as a possible 8th-level anti-undead maneuver? You do a strike against an undead as normal, and say they take x number of d6s of bonus damage, but then the disruptive energy flashes outward from the target you hit in a small (like maybe 10 feet radius), and does some extra d6s of damage to undead within that radius? It'd make a good area attack for fighting undead clustered in a small area.

Pechvarry
2010-07-10, 01:42 AM
We all know if WotC was still making 3.5 material, all 9 schools would have twice as many maneuvers, a stance or 2 at every level, and 3-4 level 9 maneuvers. While a decent guideline to strive for, I don't see why number of maneuvers should be anything to actively worry about.

Just Sayin'

Danzig
2010-07-17, 12:58 AM
To Pechvarry...So, just what are you getting at? I was trying to give the original author my own personal input. Since WoTC abandoned everything that 3.5 stands for, we have to make do with what hombrewing can do. To that end, if I see something that people say needs help, I do my best to see that it's done.
You don't have to listen to what I say, but please try to be courteous and let the people who have something constructive to say on this thread get the details hammered out.

To JoshuaZ: The concept for the maneuver I posted, I'll write it down as a sample entry and post it, if you want to use it, you can, if you don't that's no problem either.

JoshuaZ
2010-07-17, 09:15 AM
Danzig, that's an interesting idea. I was thinking of a maneuver that if it destroys an undead destroys all of its spawn and their spawn and so on. But yours might be more practically useable. Adding two maneuvers at 8th level would seem problematic given that we were trying to reduce the total number of maneuvers. Will need to think about this.

Danzig
2010-07-17, 10:42 AM
As promised, here's the idea I was going for... I'm not so sure about the name, but this is the concept I had.

Disruptive Shockwave
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 8d6 damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is an undead being then it takes +1 additional damage for every hit die it has and +1 per initiator level. This disruptive energy flashes outward from the target in a 10-foot radius burst, dealing 8d6 positive energy damage to any undead caught within the radius. Undead struck in this fashion may make a Fortitude save for half damage.

Of course, this is just a rough outline of it, you can tweak the numbers up or down, like for instance the splash damage radius can be higher (10 feet is a conservative minimum). I got the numbers incidentally from inverting the way Rebuke The Controller's numbers work, and then upped the damage dice by a couple. I didn't know if it was such a good idea to do 10d6 initial damage, as we already have a maneuver of this level that does this, and this does splash damage in addition to the 8d6 + bonus damage.

I got the idea from glancing over the list and noticing that there were no positive energy maneuvers that did damage in a burst, and I thought to myself "Surely someone who uses positive energy in such a fashion might need to fight undead in a tight crowd?", and presto, here it is.

I'm not so sure we'd need another 8th level anti-undead maneuver if we used this, since Fear of The Coming Oblivion can be used against undead, just not to make them afraid.

DracoDei
2010-07-17, 11:42 AM
I like the whole thing about destruction, that, if it works, chains (with individual saves) to all spawn, and all spawn of those(with saves), and all spawn of those(Ditto)... note that Create Undead via a spell or SLA should NOT count as "spawning".

JoshuaZ
2010-07-17, 12:00 PM
I like the whole thing about destruction, that, if it works, chains (with individual saves) to all spawn, and all spawn of those(with saves), and all spawn of those(Ditto)... note that Create Undead via a spell or SLA should NOT count as "spawning".

Yes, that's exactly how I thought of it, make it only apply to supernatural spawning effects that are not due to class levels (so ghouls, bodaks and vampires get their spawn included but not zombies raised by a vampire).

Danzig
2010-07-17, 12:41 PM
Yes, that's exactly how I thought of it, make it only apply to supernatural spawning effects that are not due to class levels (so ghouls, bodaks and vampires get their spawn included but not zombies raised by a vampire).

That sounds like a phenomenal idea too.

...Hey, if I was to nerf the numbers on the one I thought up, could my maneuver work as a lower-than-8th-level maneuver? I really like both our ideas, but yours is probably better for an 8th-level maneuver than mine.

I just think the idea of anti-necrotic splash damage off of a melee strike is too cool to pass up, IMHO.



...Or, here's another idea: You could always fold the chain-destroy effect you are referring to into Final Rest. It's no guarantee that all the target's spawn will be destroyed, obviously, but it could probably rip through a great deal of them, and their spawn in turn, and so on. Maybe with each lower "generation" down the chain, they'd get a bonus on their saves to avoid being destroyed?

...Mull it over and see what you think.

Pechvarry
2010-07-17, 01:37 PM
To Pechvarry...So, just what are you getting at? I was trying to give the original author my own personal input. Since WoTC abandoned everything that 3.5 stands for, we have to make do with what hombrewing can do. To that end, if I see something that people say needs help, I do my best to see that it's done.
You don't have to listen to what I say, but please try to be courteous and let the people who have something constructive to say on this thread get the details hammered out.

I don't remember trying for discourteous. I appreciate your input as I do my best to read over every martial discipline that floats through these parts (and I've had almost zero luck finding authors willing to revisit their old disciplines for improvement, incidentally). I simply don't see a reason to attempt to split a discipline up. Allow me to translate my above post:

I like where this discipline is, and I agree more work will only make it better. But I don't think saying "we have X number of maneuvers when WotC only used Y" is a good metric for determining when it needs trimmed down.

And, as far as judging my own criticism goes, I believe it to be valid and worth remembering.

Danzig
2010-07-17, 01:54 PM
Fair enough... I do agree that strictly going by WoTC standards is a load of crap, anyway. For instance, the way they implement rules for legacy weapons is completely kife. Ask me about it sometime, I have a pretty solid houserule regarding that.

As you probably know, this is one of my top 7 favourite martial disciplines (the others being Army of One, Jade Throne, Diamond Mind, Solaris Arcanum, Holy Word, and Anima River), hence the interest in helping shine it up. Also, since I have a character who faces undead all the time, this sort of discipline is right up his alley.

As it stands, I prefer the way JoshuaZ has it as one discipline, with the changes he suggested making. Splitting up the discipline was only a suggestion to be considered as a last resort. But we'll have to see what he says on the matter regarding the maneuver I submitted, and the idea of folding the chain-destroy effect into Final Rest or not.

DracoDei
2010-07-17, 05:55 PM
Pechvarry: Have you looked at the Feline Way in Bhu's "Cat Fan's Unite and PEACH!" thread? I never can find the energy to do the careful full read I think I owe him...

Pechvarry
2010-07-17, 10:19 PM
Pechvarry: Have you looked at the Feline Way in Bhu's "Cat Fan's Unite and PEACH!" thread? I never can find the energy to do the careful full read I think I owe him...

OK, all but the cat threads.

DracoDei
2010-07-18, 12:49 AM
OK, all but the cat threads.
I would count it a favor if you did.
And I am always looking to tweak Falling Anvil.

JoshuaZ
2010-08-05, 07:21 PM
Ok. Updated most of above as discussed. I haven't yet made up my mind whether to add the area-effect anti-undead, and I still need to work out the details for making Embrace the Wratih either a feat result or an epic stance.

Danzig
2010-08-06, 03:32 AM
Actually, that looks pretty good as-is.

If you did add an area-effect to anything, maybe that'd be a good side effect of destroying an undead with Final Rest, since Destroy The Source has an interesting secondary effect with the destruction of spawn. It would function only on destruction of the target, and do half the damage that the first target took... Maybe that's where the area effect would work.

Then again, maybe not. But either way, I'm so gonna use your discipline.

Danzig
2010-08-06, 03:44 AM
By the way, DracoDei, I looked over the Feline Way discipline, and I think it's absolutely perfect for a campaign featuring the Cats of Ulthar. Matter of fact, since Bhu never really gave any fluff for where it came from, I'd be willing to fluff the Feline Way as originating in Ulthar, after the awakening of the cats, and the coronation of the first incarnation of the Prince, who was also a weretiger (non-contagious) and happened to be the founder of said discipline.

Maybe I'll go pay Bhu a visit and see what he thinks.

JoshuaZ
2011-01-03, 09:05 PM
Bumping. Note that Havvy has helpfully transferred this over to the D&D wiki (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Narrow_Bridge_%283.5e_Martial_Discipline%29). Havvy has also suggested weakening two of the maneuvers:

Suggested versions are as follows:

For Live Without Life

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this strike hits, you deal an extra 1d6 vile damage and your target must make a fortitude save (DC 11 + your Wisdom modifier). If the target fails, the target may not regain hit points for 1 day per initiator level or until the creature is healed at least 1 hit point magically. .

So reducing the length of time and ending when any magical healing has occurred.

Also, he's suggested a modification for Empower the Dead:


While under this stance, any undead or deathless created or animated within 30 feet of you that you or an ally creates gains 2 extra hit points. Any undead or deathless that you or an ally within 30 feet summon gains +2 hit points during the duration of the summon effect.

Furthermore, all undead within 30 feet of you gain a +2 bonus to their turn resistance. You may ignore this turn resistance when you turn or rebuke.

When you create or animate an undead, you may roll a Knowledge (religion) check with a DC of 10 + the creature's hit dice. If you succeed, the undead gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength.

I like this and think that is probably better than the current version. I am however on the fence about modifying Live without Life as he suggested. Input is welcome.

Havvy
2011-01-03, 11:46 PM
Note that the grammar is modified slightly on the wiki version for most maneuvers. Just one or two words per maneuver though.

I'll start with Live Without Life. Specifically, in the current version, there are three rolls minimum where my change makes it two rolls. Less rolling equals faster gameplay and whatnot. Also, the following part is broken for two reasons.


1 month/initiator level and cannot heal from magical effects unless the caster succeeds on a charisma check of DC your 10 + your initiator level.

First off, the time is ridiculously long for a first level maneuver. Second, when your initiator level becomes 20, the charisma check DC is 30. This means you need a charisma of 30 just to succeed 1 in 20 times. Third off, how often can the charisma check be made, and what action type does it take?

Also, from level 7 and above, you only offer strikes. Yes, this is a strike heavy discipline, but a few more counters or boosts intermixed would help add some diversity.

Finally, your capstone is weaker than a level 7 and a level 8 strike. In fact, the level 7 strike (Life Is Precious) is stronger than the other two. I'd switch the level and prerequisites of Life Is Precious and Final Rest.

Any changes you want to the wiki copy, notify me (or say that something is officially changed.)

JoshuaZ
2011-01-18, 09:30 PM
Note that the grammar is modified slightly on the wiki version for most maneuvers. Just one or two words per maneuver though.

I'll start with Live Without Life. Specifically, in the current version, there are three rolls minimum where my change makes it two rolls. Less rolling equals faster gameplay and whatnot. Also, the following part is broken for two reasons.


First off, the time is ridiculously long for a first level maneuver. Second, when your initiator level becomes 20, the charisma check DC is 30. This means you need a charisma of 30 just to succeed 1 in 20 times. Third off, how often can the charisma check be made, and what action type does it take?

Hmm, yes. All very good points. I favor your version. So both of those maneuvers should have your modified forms (Also can you point out which maneuvers had the grammar issues so I can go back and modify them here? If there were too many, I'll just change the two maneuvers as above and add a link to the wiki.)



Also, from level 7 and above, you only offer strikes. Yes, this is a strike heavy discipline, but a few more counters or boosts intermixed would help add some diversity.

There's been prior issues with people saying that the discipline has a lot of maneuvers in general, I'm slightly worried about adding more maneuvers. I'll consider it (I also don't have any obvious ideas for a thematically appropriate high level counter or boost. If you or anyone else has an idea feel free to suggest it.)



Finally, your capstone is weaker than a level 7 and a level 8 strike. In fact, the level 7 strike (Life Is Precious) is stronger than the other two. I'd switch the level and prerequisites of Life Is Precious and Final Rest.


Huh? I'm missing something here. How is that the case?

Havvy
2011-01-19, 04:18 AM
The level seven strike kills any creature that fails a fortitude save. The level nine strike kills any undead or deathless that fails a fortitude save. Notice the difference? Sure, there are tiny odds and ends, but anything that forces a save or die on more types of creatures is de facto stronger.

If anything the IL+5 HD Cap seems arbitrary to me in the (currently) level seven strike too. It only seems to make it work on creatures that weren't too tough based on abilities alone that the author decided adding additional HD would be a solution. So in effect, it hurts interesting encounters more than uninteresting ones. :smallsigh:

If I could remember which maneuvers I changed a word or two on, I'd have listed them already. Generally though, the gist is understood and the spelling/grammar of works on this forum tend to not be looked at as much.

JoshuaZ
2011-02-08, 03:37 PM
The level seven strike kills any creature that fails a fortitude save. The level nine strike kills any undead or deathless that fails a fortitude save. Notice the difference? Sure, there are tiny odds and ends, but anything that forces a save or die on more types of creatures is de facto stronger.

If anything the IL+5 HD Cap seems arbitrary to me in the (currently) level seven strike too. It only seems to make it work on creatures that weren't too tough based on abilities alone that the author decided adding additional HD would be a solution. So in effect, it hurts interesting encounters more than uninteresting ones. :smallsigh:



Good points. I'll change that as you've suggested. (Will do so later today, internet right now is a bit wonky).