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Borax
2006-05-13, 11:19 PM
I want to know what you guys think of my prestige class i made... ;D

Chain Warrior

Hit Die: d10

Requirements
* * *Stats: Str 13+
* * *Alignment: any
* * *Use Rope: Rank 4
* * *Climb: Rank 8
* * *Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved unarmed strike,
* * *Weapon Focus: (Spiked Chain), Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), EWP: (Spiked Chain)

Class Skills
* * *Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Use Rope (Dex)

Skill pts at each level: 2 + Int mod * * *

Lvl * *Bab * * * * * Fort * * * * * * *Ref * * * * * **Will * * * * * Spc
1 * * *+1 * * * * * *+0 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *+0 * * * * * *Use Chain
2 * * *+2 * * * * * *+0 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *+0 * * * * * *Chain Fists
3 * * *+3 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *Advanced Chain Focus
4 * * *+4 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *+4 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *Throw Chain
5 * * *+5 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *+4 * * * * * *+1 * * * * * *Chain-mail
6 * * *+6 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *+5 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *Advanced Chain Specialization
7 * * *+7 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *+5 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *Chain Combat
8 * * *+8 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *+6 * * * * * *+2 * * * * * *Spiked Chain and Fist Style
9 * * *+9 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *+6 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *Chain Defense
10 * * *+10 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *+7 * * * * * *+3 * * * * * *Superior Chains

Use Chain: exactly like the Use Rope Skill but pertains to Chains.

Chain Fists: you can wrap a 5 foot piece of chain (5 lbs) around each of your forearms to increase unarmed combat damage by +2 at 2nd level +4 at 6th and +6 at 10th level

Advanced Chain Focus: you get an additional +1 to hit when using a spiked chain and when using unarmed combat with the chain fists ability.

Throw Chain: As a full attack action you can throw a 5 foot piece of chain at a range of 20 feet (range increment 10 feet) and do 1d4 x Chain Warrior level + Str mod in damage a number of times per day equal to your Con mod. You can throw 1 at level 4 and 2 at level 8 in that full attack action. You can always throw chains at 1d8 damage + your Str mod just like any thrown weapon. This is an extraordinary *ability.

Chain-mail: You can wrap your body in chains( minimum of 20 feet) and use it as armor. You cannot *wear any other *armor when using this ability. It acts like a AC of 5 with a -2 armor check penalty, no dex penalty, 30% spell failure and no speed penalty. Chain-mail is not actual armor but an extention of your power when it comes to chains. This is an extrordinary ability.

Advanced Chain Specialization: you get an additional +2 to damage when using a spiked chain and when using unarmed combat with the chain fists ability. * ** * * * * *
Chain Combat: If a Chain Warrior is climbing on a chain, you suffer no penalty to attacks and foes gain no bonus to attack you. If the chain you has the ability to swing more than 5 feet you gain a +2 dodge AC bonus.

Spiked Chain and Fist Style: you gain the ability to wield the Spiked Chain in one hand and use your off-hand fist just like you had Two-Weapon Fighting (1 extra attack with off-hand at a -4 to all attacks).

Chain Defense: As a move-equivalent action you can use a spinning chain to provide a +4 deflection AC bonus against all attacks for that round. If you attack in that round this ability ends. This is an extraordinary ability.

Superior Chains: you can add you Int mod to you AC when you are wearing chains as per the chain-mail ability also all chain weapons you use including Chain Fists increase there die type by 1 but only if you wield them. This is an extraordinary ability.

Seffbasilisk
2006-05-13, 11:35 PM
Maybe instead of Int make superior chains give you double dex? 'Cause I don't see much int needed for this. Maybe a STR needed for the class? Or a feat that requires a specific minimum STR?

Otherwise it seems pretty cool to me.

The Glyphstone
2006-05-14, 07:51 AM
Hehe....imagine a Kyton (Chain Devil) with levels in this class... ;D

okay, PEACHing away:

-Firstly, this class seems the ultimate in MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency). It's not as bad as most, since they're mostly abilities you'd want high anyways, but I count Str for damage; Dex 13+ to get Combat Expertise; Con for Throw Chains; and Int for Superior Chains.

-You're missing one important feat - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). I know Weapon Focus requires proficiency in a weapon, but it should be added just for completeness.

-And why non-good? Are spiked chains an evil weapon somehow? Because they're spiky?

-Throw Chains is a bit too powerful...at highest level, with a decent Con modifier, the Chain Warrior is doing 40d4+Str mod at anything within 20ft - that's some serious damage. And what's the range increment for a normal thrown chain?

-Spiked Chain and Fist style is a bit redundant, the Spiked Chain is already a double weapon, so you can make extra attacks with it. In fact, SC+F is worse, because the double weapon rules consider the "off-hand attack" to be made with a light weapon.

-Chain Defense: 3.5 got rid of facing, just make this a straight-up deflection bonus against all attacks.

-Superior Chains: I also recommend switching it to double Dexterity, maximum your class level. That removes Int from being an important ability, and fits the "agile fighter" a bit more. Unfortunately, the die-step increased combined with Throw Chains makes it broken...40d6 damage is ridiculous, being able to lay low or cripple most monsters in one or two hits.

Overall, a nice concept - should attract the Spiked Chain Trip-Monkeys of Cheese like flies and rotten meat... ;D

Borax
2006-05-14, 12:06 PM
I cant belive i missed EWP: Spiked chain ( thats what i get for doing this at night :P)

a STR requirement looks like a good idea, I thik a 13 should be good.

as far as the throw chain ability you max damage at level 10 is 10d4 + str mod (i.e. 1d4 x chain warrior level + str mod) not 40d4.

the chain and fist style allows you to use a spiked chain in one hand this would give you more freedom than using the chain as a dual-weapon cause your off-hand can grab a potion or swing from a rope or chain or, attack as stated. An if you feal really nasty just use a shield in one hand and a spiked chain in the other.

Alignment, hmmm.... i guess that would be better if i made it "any" ( LG fighter with white chains ;D)

well and why the MAD? well i wanted the class to be prestige, many good stats plus the Int mod to AC has an ulterior motive... more skill pts to fund Craft: Blacksmithing or weaponsmithing. how does mithral chains sound? ;D ;D

Necromas
2006-05-14, 04:32 PM
as far as the throw chain ability you max damage at level 10 is 10d4 + str mod (i.e. 1d4 x chain warrior level + str mod) not 40d4.


10d4+str x 4 attacks per round = 40d4+4x str if they all hit. As long as you have a high enough con modifier.

Of course, this is assuming the ability works as how you worded it, as a thrown weapon.

idksocrates
2006-05-14, 04:41 PM
I have to agree with the throw chain being overpowered.

Spiked chain is hardly a low damage weapon, and the class is high bab with a decent AC. Having the ability to throw 10d4+ damage around several times a day for this class seems a bit good.

Is it a standard action to throw a chain that does this, or an attack action? In other words, could a 20th level fighter/Chain warrior throw 4 chains that each do 10d4+str in one round?

Its more balanced if doing this ability is a standard action, so you are doing a max of 10d4 str per round, which is still decent damage.

Chain mail is interesting, but can you enchant it? If you can't magically enhance it, players are more likely to take normal armor. (if their high dex, they'll simply mithral other armor up).


My criticism is the fact that if a person has access to their spiked chain, why would they use their chain fist ability?
And if they don't have access to their spiked chain, your probably not going to have access to a couple of 5 foot lengths of chain either.

Glyphstone: spiked chains aren't double weapons, just two-handed, so spike chain and fist is actually a decent ability.

Whats interesting is the fact that the ability effectively gives you two feats: monkey grip (the ability to use a two-handed weapon in one hand), and two weapon fighting. As a prestige class, this probably isn't too much of an issue though.


Personally, I like the class **readied action for yoink once its done**

The Glyphstone
2006-05-14, 05:07 PM
Glyphstone: *spiked chains aren't double weapons, just two-handed, so spike chain and fist is actually a decent ability. *


Whoops...my bad. Okay - it's a good ability now.

The problem with MAD is that a lot of games use point-buy, which isn't terribly generous in allowing more than 2 or 3 "good" scores, and a few "average" ones. With this, a prospective Chain Warrior will end up either ignoring some of his class features (in which case, they might as well not exist), or end up with mediocre bonuses to all of them, which hurts the character as a whole. That's not about minimaxing, but about trying to spread resources too thin.

And to balance Throw Chain - I'd recommend making it a standard action, or even a full-round action. Normally, throwing a two-handed weapon or object that isn't a throwing weapon is a full-round action with a -4 attack penalty, or a standard action to throw a one-handed weapon. And spiked chains fit into the "non-throwing weapon" category, so the last part of the ability is sorta wonky.

Borax
2006-05-14, 06:16 PM
hmmm... i can see that the ability to throw 4 in a round can be pretty nasty, so lets make it a move-equivalent action (you could only throw 2 in a round like if you took a double move). since this is an extraordinary ability the Chain Warrior just has a nack with chucking chains.

you can enchant Chain-mail but it is armor an can only be enchanted as such (it cant have both armor and weapon properties) plus it must be 20ft long or it wont work.

all of the chains listed are seperate chains the 5 foot sections on your arms (2, 5 foot chains) your spiked chain (1, 10 to 15 foot chain) your armor ( 20 foot chain) plus any extra 5 foot chains for your throw chain ability. so that like 45+ feet of total chains.

and why would people use the chain fists? you wont all ways have room to swing the spiked chain plus noone can disarm your fist (well... unless they cut it off ::)) plus i wouldn't wrap the spiked chain around yourself, your good with chains but not immune to them ;D .

as far as MAD is concerned this is on a 32 point buy.

Str 16(+3) Dex 16(+3) Con 16(+3)
Int 14(+2) Wis 8(-1) Cha 8(-1)

that was 8+8+8+6+0+0 = 32
not too bad ;)

Rigeld2
2006-05-14, 06:21 PM
Whats interesting is the fact that the ability effectively gives you two feats: monkey grip (the ability to use a two-handed weapon in one hand), and two weapon fighting. As a prestige class, this probably isn't too much of an issue though.

Monkey Grip doesnt do that. It allows you to use (for example) a Large Two-Handed sword in two hands, or a Large Long Sword in one hand. It does *not* allow you to use a Medium Two-Handed sword in one hand.

Jack Mann
2006-05-14, 08:30 PM
as far as MAD is concerned this is on a 32 point buy.

Str 16(+3) Dex 16(+3) Con 16(+3)
Int 14(+2) Wis 8(-1) Cha 8(-1)

that was 8+8+8+6+0+0 = 32
not too bad ;) *


First off, 8+8+8+6+0+0 = 30, not 32. Second, you misunderstand point buy. Scores become more expensive when they become higher. It costs two points to raise from a fourteen to a fifteen or fifteen to sixteen, and then three to go from sixteen to seventeen or seventeen to eighteen. You're actually looking at 10+10+10+6+0+0 = 36.

High-Chancellor
2006-05-14, 08:46 PM
Ohh... me likey.

This would be an awesome prestige class for my monk...

Borax
2006-05-14, 09:21 PM
guess i lost thoes 2 points some where ??? the point buy i was using was 2 pts at 17 and 3 pts at 18 which is why it looked the way it did. ok so here is what it would look like the other way

Str 16(+3) Dex 16(+3) Con 14(+2)
Int 14(+2) Wis 8(-1) Cha 8(-1)
10+10+6+6+0+0 = 32

still good ;D

larnman2
2006-05-14, 09:39 PM
It yells out at the top of its lungs "Jackie Chan," so I might suggest making it more accesible to monks. I think you factoring in the requirement of 8 in intimidate because you think a PC like this would be scary, not because he has to be to get the PrC. So maybe a different Prereq. could be made.

Borax
2006-05-14, 09:53 PM
Good point on the intimidate i think a good replacement would be climb 8 fits better with the use rope and allows you monks to go nuts. ;D

High-Chancellor
2006-05-14, 09:59 PM
NOW I have a question regarding it as my very livelyhood as a monk depends on.

What kind of action is performing the chainmail thing? And would it count as actual armor, thus removing spiffy monk abilities and such, or would it just provide the AC of armor? And if it DOES classify as armor when using, what classification of armor?

larnman2
2006-05-14, 10:18 PM
I think that it would only give the AC, because there is the fluidity involved with it that can only be achieved by a Chain Warrior.

Borax
2006-05-14, 10:21 PM
Well it only acts as armor so officially its not armor. it can be enchanted ( if its a masterwork chain of course) and you cant ware any other armor (the chain would be superceded by any armor worn). ill update that in the description. hope that helps ;D

larnman2
2006-05-14, 10:26 PM
Also, I don't think it would work, it would just be plain physically awkward to wrap the chains around pre-existing armor. I think this PrC should have been made long ago. It's exactly what a PrC is supposed to be

idksocrates
2006-05-15, 12:38 AM
I still stand by the idea that the thrown chain should be standard action, but anywhoo...

the more I think about this class, the more cool it sounds. Monk chain warrior, eh? If your gonna go that route, you might want to make it so that the spiked chain can be used with flurry of blows.

Besides that, the chain fist makes the monk's unarmed combat damage orgasmically good: +8 bonuse to damage with chained attacks by 6th level. Plus armor.

One thing I would DEFINATELY do is make it so that it does count as armor. Not counting as armor would make a monk/chain warrior SUPER SUPER munchkin. If you want monk unarmored bonuses to AC, you can't wear armor.

High-Chancellor
2006-05-15, 01:52 AM
Which pretty much would make chainmail poinless to monks... but y'know, it still works.

And the chain really doesn't need to be used in fury of blows... that might be too much. He can just use it for extra unarmed damage and use THAT in fury of blows.

Maybe you can do an either or thing. When you get to the right level you can either take Chain Mail, or... something else. Extended grapple? lets you use the chains to initialize a grapple attempt indiana jones whip style. Including objects...

Necromas
2006-05-15, 07:37 AM
It's simply not a good idea to make ANY kind of attack a move equivalent action only. Theres a reason that there are no move equivalent action attacks. Even overrun isn't technically a move equivalent action.

If you make it a normal attack that is limited to once per 10 BAB if you do it as a full round action, it makes more sense, so the person cant make 2 chain attacks when he normally would be limited to one or two attacks during a full round action. Also, if a person attacks with it at a full round action, the attacks would be at 20/15 AB instead of 20/20 AB for two move actions.

Thiel
2006-05-15, 08:05 AM
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the Ki enchantment make a weapon a monkweapon?

Evil_Pacifist
2006-05-15, 08:42 AM
Cool...
Chain Mail: isn't 20 feet of chain a lot to be lugging around?

Thiel
2006-05-15, 08:53 AM
it's only 4lb according to the PHB

Gyrfalcon
2006-05-15, 03:41 PM
NOW I have a question regarding it as my very livelyhood as a monk depends on.

What kind of action is performing the chainmail thing? *And would it count as actual armor, thus removing spiffy monk abilities and such, or would it just provide the AC of armor? And if it DOES classify as armor when using, what classification of armor?

I thought so too, but remember that you need four levels of fighter for Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), so at best you'd be Fighter 4 / Monk 6 / Chain Warrior 10.

It does provide several advantages for monks though, such as armor, int bonus to armor, +8 damage and +1 to hit per attack, and the thrown chain attack.

Borax
2006-05-15, 04:36 PM
I want to thank all of ya for helping me get the "bugs" out of this class ;D ;D and ill take the move actions out for throw chain and make it a full attack action with 1 attack at lvl 4 and 2 attacks at level 8. that should balance it better.

Galahad
2006-05-15, 06:07 PM
There is already a class almost exactly like this in Sword and Fist called Master of Chains. And when i say almost i mean close to identical.

Borax
2006-05-15, 06:16 PM
Yeah the Master of chains PrC ( Sword and Fist 3.0)
was part of the backing for this class and i also got some ideas (especially the chain fist ability) from the movie Kung-fu hustle: the guy who used the rings around his forarms for more punching power. plus it needed to be 3.5 friendly ;D