Super Soldier Template

[AbyssKnight]

Hey all,

I am hoping to get some feedback on a template I am creating.

Super Soldier
This acquired template can only be added to Humans (story reasons)

Size and Type
Size increases to Large

Speed
Land speed increases by 10'. Other movements are not affected.

Armor Class
Gains a +2 Natural Armor bonus

Special Qualities
Gains Lowlight Vision, immunity to Fear, +4 to saves vs. Poisons and Diseases.

Attributes
+14 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con

Skills
+4 Listen, +4 Spot

Feats
Gains Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats.

Level Adjustment
+2

Basically I took the Lolth Touched template (bonus to Dex instead of Con, and different skill bonuses) and combined it with the Half Minotaur template (including the size increase for applying it to a medium creature). Of course, the template doesn't actually represent being blessed by the Spider Queen or minotaur ancestry, but arcane enhancement to create a superior soldier. I added some things and tooks some things out.

Does this look fairly balanced for a +2 LA?

[Dagren]

Attributes
+14 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con+14 STR? That seems a bit excessive. Especially for a +2LA.

[dragonfan6490]

The +14 to Str alone is worth more than LA +2, at least LA +3 or 4 IMO. That's a massive boost to attacks, not to mention some skill checks. Otherwise, it looks really good.

[AbyssKnight]

Thanks for the quick replies!

The +14 Str comes from +8 size increase from medium to large, and +6 Lolth Touched template (one of the components I used, its a +1 LA template).

The Half Minotaur template (found http://www.scribd.com/doc/904785/Index-Templates) is also listed as a +1 template and includes an increase to Large if applied to a medium creature. Heck, I took a lot out from it (and traded some features for different abilities).

If the +14 seems excessive, what would you say is a more reasonable bonus?

[Dagren]

Thanks for the quick replies!

The +14 Str comes from +8 size increase from medium to large, and +6 Lolth Touched template (one of the components I used, its a +1 LA template).

The Half Minotaur template (found http://www.scribd.com/doc/904785/Index-Templates) is also listed as a +1 template and includes an increase to Large if applied to a medium creature. Heck, I took a lot out from it (and traded some features for different abilities).

If the +14 seems excessive, what would you say is a more reasonable bonus?I'd say don't stack them, just take the +8. (That's what a full minotaur has by the way, and they're +2 LA)

[imp_fireball]

The +14 to Str alone is worth more than LA +2, at least LA +3 or 4 IMO. That's a massive boost to attacks, not to mention some skill checks. Otherwise, it looks really good.

Well if everything else sucks, then +14 STR is practically expected at +2 LA.

The ogre is +10 STR but they've got a ton of penalties.

As for skill checks, +14 STR and +10 speed is a static +11 jump. That's about two extra vertical feet. Not much, really.

Also +2 LA is great if the super soldier has no bonus HD. It's sort of the same deal with the half-minotaur. I remember a player in my first campaign had 42 STR and 3HD at ECL 5.

[Pyrusticia]

Well if everything else sucks, then +14 STR is practically expected at +2 LA.

If everything else sucks, maybe so. But I don't see any suckage here. In fact, I don't see a single penalty in the entire template. Even Dex, which would normally take a hit to make up for increase bulk and muscle mass, is actually improved.

+2 LA is way too low for this.

[AbyssKnight]

Imp_Fireball is correct, there are no bonus HD.
Pyrusticia, Dex did go down by 2, it just was compensated for with another bonus.

I will go into more detail for how I came up with the template shown above.

Lolth Touched (MM 4)
+6 Str, +6 Con
+4 Hide and Move Silently
Immune to Fear
+1 LA

Half Minotaur (Dragon mag 313)
Increase size on step if original creature is Small or Medium
[specifically says to apply all stat changes from the size change
-1 to AC/to hit, reach 10', +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Nat Armor]
+10' land speed if size is increased
Nat Armor +2
Gore 1d8+str
Darkvision 60'
+4 vs. Maze spell and always know north
Scent
+4 Str, Con +2, Int -2
+2 Search, Spot, and Listen
bonus feat Track
LA +1

For Lolth Touched, I switched the bonus from Con to Dex, and the skill bonuses from Hide/Move Silently to Listen/Spot.

For Half Minotaur, I took the size and speed increase. I traded Darkvision for Lowlight vision. I got rid of +2 Nat Armor, Gore attack, +4 vs. Maze, Scent, skill bonuses, and Track.

I added +4 vs. Poisons/Diseases, Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats.

I felt the trade offs I made with both templates were fair. Since they are both +1 templates, I pegged it as +2.

Compare to Natural Werebear (stats in hybrid form).
Size Large
+10' speed
+16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Wis
+7 Nat Armor
2 claws and bite
Imp Grab
DR 10/Silver
Lowlight vsion, scent
Iron Will
+4 Swim
LA +3

I didn't include the bear feats since they come from the bear HD.

So would Super Soldier be more reasonable as a +3 template?
Any constuctive comments on how to improve it, not just "Too strong for LA +2"?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The problem comes from using Lolth-touched (a very powerful LA +1 template), and combining it with Half-Minotaur (a Dragon Magazine creation...thus largely untested, which is actually in line with the Half-Ogre...and thus LA +2).

I'd say what you have here is a +4 template, although lowering the Strength to +8 or so would make it a solid +3, closer to a good +3 (Str, Con, Dex, Large size, natural armor, bonus feats [good for prerequisites of some quite good feats] and skill bonuses).

In your comparison with the Werebear, you forgot something important: Those Bear Hit Dice count against your total class level...and really suck mechanically. So you've got a penalty from taking Animal Hit Dice rather than class levels, and then a +3 LA on top of that.

[Stycotl]

on top of the la issue being debated here (which i would put at +4 also), it doesn't really strike me as super soldier-ish. there is nothing about it that says that it is a super soldier. sure, it is strong and large. but that doesn't really mean anything. you just combined two already existing templates.

i'd go through and make unique abilities for it and then combine it with mechanical bonuses to strength, etc.

[AbyssKnight]

Djinn, Thanks for the feedback! I think you made some good points.

I didn't forget about the Animal HD, but I didn't include anything in my list that comes from the actual HD you gain either. Those HD are definately not optimal, but I wouldn't really say they suck either. d8 HD, Cleric BAB, strong Fort and Reflex saves, the skills do kinda suck though. They give you three feats and an attribute bump, but its not like they are PC class levels.

The same article with Half Minotaur also has a Half Ogre template that is also +1. So if WotC went back and made Half Ogre +2, then Half Minotaur probably should be too. Lolth Touched does seem like a pretty strong +1 template, I used it because the its the only one I found that has Immunity to Fear. So if we call it +1.5 and Half Minotaur should really be +2 then I can see why so many people think it is more of a +4 template.

Stycotl, thanks for your opinion. With respect, I would think being much bigger (size), stronger (str), tougher (Con, Nat Armor, Die Hard), faster (Speed, Dex), aware of your surroundings (Lowlight vision, skills), and able to perform strenous physical activity (Con, Endurance) for longer than normal soldiers would indeed qualify you as a Super Soldier, especially when soldiering involves shoving sharpened steel bars into other people. They are also immune to fear (morale issues) and resistant to diseases/poisons (which in many medieval wars killed more people than the enemy ever could).

Yes, I took two pre-existing templates and combined them, but I chose two that provided elements that were important to what I want. And I thought (turns out mistakenly) that by looking for WotC/WotC approved templates it would cut down on the balance problems of trying to create my own from scratch.

But I do have a template that can let me take a normal human and turn him into a hulking, steely sinewed, Angel of Death. And they Shall Know No Fear. It just has a higher LA than I was planning.

[Stycotl]

i wasn't saying that what you gave it wasn't appropriate, but that so far this is not anything unique or flavorfully connected. so far it is just stat boosts. that was my only point; take it or leave it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What Level Adjustment were you aiming for? I'm sure that it wouldn't be to hard to create a properly adjusted template once we know the target number...

[Dagren]

What Level Adjustment were you aiming for? I'm sure that it wouldn't be to hard to create a properly adjusted template once we know the target number...That would be useful. You certainly don't need +14(!) strength for a super soldier, even a lowly +4 would place you head and shoulders above a normal human. (That's what an orc gets, isn't it? I forget. Anyway, they're a lot tougher than humans) If you wanted you could just refluff an existing creature, (Like the orc) although I don't think that's what you want.

[AbyssKnight]

Well, I guess I am aiming in the +2-+3 range. Higher than that causes problems with playing the character (too few HD, hp, saves, etc).

Basically, I am creating a template for a d20 version of Adeptus Astartes, aka Space Marines of Warhammer 40k.

So, some of the elements that are most important for a believable Space Marine are: size, strength, toughness, and immunity to fear.

Space Marines are much larger than humans. If not size Large, then Powerful Build at a minimum. While you may not need a +14 bonus to Str, Space Marines are vastly stronger than humans. The weapons they wield in combat are almost too heavy for normal men to lift off the ground. And they not only survive, but continue fighting with wounds that should kill any five humans. And, of course, their most thematic, and unique, element is And They Shall Know No Fear (literally fearless).

They have other, more minor abilities, but this is the core. So, anyone who is a fan of WH40K think this is a decent template for Space Marines? Or possibly a better way to represent them more balanced for a +2-3 template?

I appreciate any assistance you can provide.

[Stormthorn]

The +14 to Str alone is worth more than LA +2, at least LA +3 or 4 IMO. That's a massive boost to attacks, not to mention some skill checks. Otherwise, it looks really good.

Ogres are a LA +2 and they have +10 Str.
Githzeri or whatever they are called get +6 Dex.

But i think LA +3 would be more appropriate overall.

Since your giving Diehard as a bonus feat you dont have to give Endurance and i suggest you dont. You give them Improved Toughness instead (+1 HP/Level)

Lower the Str bonus to +8.
That way a perfectly average man with this template now has str at the upper end of whats physicly possible for a human to achieve.

And dont forget to mention that they gain the "augmented" subtype. You might also want to turn them into Abberations or Monsterous Humanoids if your really going for the space marine feel.

[Lord Orcus]

This is a great space marine template, now just make them each buy magic (cough... Articifer ...cough) armour and make them supremly loval to the overlord (cough... Marneus Calgar ...cough) then they will rule the game!

[Dagren]

I think one problem you'll have is that +2 LA doesn't really fit with the Adeptus Astartes. Either they'll be totally unbalanced and completely overpowered for +2 LA, or they won't come anywhere near what the AA should be. So, I think you may have to make sacrifices.

[AbyssKnight]

Dagren, Yeah, I agree it's pretty hard to capture the feel of the Astartes with only a +2. But I still feel it is very difficult to play with more than a +3 LA.

Stormthorn, I can definately see changing the creature type. I would say either Monstrous Humanoid or even Giant.

Alright, I have been thinking about some things. Space Marines are about 7'6" from what I can find. Thats not really quite Large size in DnD. So here is another try at the template.

Super Soldier
This acquired template can only be added to male Humans.

Size and Type
Size does not change, however see Powerful Build.

Speed
Land speed increases by 10'. Other movements are not affected.

Armor Class
Gains a +2 Natural Armor bonus

Special Qualities
Lowlight Vision, Immune to Fear, Powerful Build (as Half Giant), +4 vs. Diseases and Poisons

Attributes
+8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con

Skills
+4 Listen, +4 Spot

Feats
Gains Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats.

How does this look? Could this go as a +2 or is it still closer to +3? Does it capture the feeling of being a Space Marine?