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Thurbane
2009-06-09, 12:21 AM
A friend of mine (relatively new to 3.5 D&D) asked me at the game last night “What’s the point in multiclassing?”. I tried to explain that some combos can be advantageous, but on the whole, multiclassing isn’t great for most classes.

I was wondering if someone could give me some examples of when multiclassing is a good idea (other than for obvious PrCs like Mystic Theurge or Anima Mage). Preferrably core combos, as that is what he is most familiar with.

Cheers - T

Tackyhillbillu
2009-06-09, 12:24 AM
It's useful for picking up the requirements for annoying PRC's. A Level of Fighter/Rogue can make life so much easier, depending if you are being hung up on Feats or Skills.

holywhippet
2009-06-09, 12:25 AM
Well, any kind of spellcasting background is handy for a monk. Especially a wizard or sorcerer since mage armor can fix one of the monks largest weaknesses.

Two levels of paladin is handy for a lawful fighter with decent charisma as you add your charisma bonus to all saving throws.

A level or two of cleric/druid can come in handy for some emergency healing.

RTGoodman
2009-06-09, 12:27 AM
Well, there are actually two reasons for or advantages to multiclassing.

First, you might have a character concept that could be made with just one class. Gishes, fighter/mage combinations, are very popular, and (without certain non-Core classes) REQUIRE multiclassing.

Second, some multiclassing makes your character much better. The 20th level of Rogue is completely useless - you get nothing but skills. Because of that, a dip for one level in, for instance, Fighter gets you something much better (a bonus feat, HP boost, and Fort boost), even though you'll lose out on a few skill points. Paladins are okay, but they don't really have much to look forward to after their first few levels. Grab a few levels in Fighter instead, and you've got bonus combat feats instead of Remove Disease or something.

Origomar
2009-06-09, 12:37 AM
If you want an ability that another class has without having to be that class entirely.

sonofzeal
2009-06-09, 12:44 AM
Barbarian/Fighter - get feats that make you better at killing things hard, then rage and kill things harder.

Ranger/Rogue - make your Ranger more of a sniper, or make your Rogue better at fighting

Monk/PsiWar - one of the best grappler combinations in the game, even after the BAB hit.



....basically, most martial classes advance linearly. Fighter level 20 is the same as Fighter level 2. But since a high level fighter already has a bucketload of feats, adding one more isn't going to do a whole lot. But adding a level of Barbarian is going to give fast movement and RAGE, which is a big help.

Or say you've got a Rogue who's got a high Int, and is going to be using Two Weapon Fighting. You could take a couple levels of Ranger to get TWF for free plus a bunch of other useful stuff, or you could take three levels of Swashbuckler to get free Weapon Finesse, and an Intelligence bonus to your damage rolls (plus qualify you for the Daring Outlaw feat). If you really want to maximize number of attacks and your Wis is good, you could consider a level of Monk for Flurry of Blows (which works with daggers), but you'd be better off with Swordsage and taking the Flashing Sun maneuver.

Sometimes multiclassing makes you strictly superior to what you would have been otherwise. Most of the time though, what it lets you do is prioritize and effectively build your own class tailored to what you want it to do. A Marshal who wants more combat skill can dip Fighter, and one who wants more leadership skill can dip Bard. A Duskblade who wants more utility powers can dip Warlock. A Barbarian that wants to be more subtle can dip Rogue or Factotum, or move into Fighter or Warblade if that's what he wants. Opportunities are nigh-endless, even before PrCs.

SSGoW
2009-06-09, 12:48 AM
if you are a mage of some sort multiclassing really is not a good idea (unless you are going for a character concept or going for a prestiege class) since you will have less melee than the melee characters and your caster level will be one less :( (thus further away from higher level spells and more spells)

of course melee character might take a level of anyther for boosts like paladin multiclassing to a fighter after so many levels the paladin looses its fire and would be better with the extra feats the fighter gets (which is probably why variants were made)

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 12:48 AM
Advantages of multiclassing: A ton of classes (Fighter, Monk, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Cleric just out of core) have a large number of handy class features on the first two levels. A character with many of these can trump a single-classed character in terms of abilities, at least in short term.

Of course, this mostly applies to non-casters (yes, Cleric 1 for Domain-abilities is a great dip) as spellcasters gain increasing returns (higher spell levels in addition to getting more spells, knowing more spells and casting old spells at higher CL) for each additional spellcasting level they take while martial types merely gain more of the same. There's of course Monk 1/Druid 19 to break this mold; wildshapers can find that Monk-level really handy.


But yeah, if you want to be a Swashbuckler, you'll probably want to be a Rogue/Fighter rather than either/or; a straight Rogue is a bit poor of a Fighter for the concept and a straight Fighter lacks the skills of a Swashbuckler. Multiclassing these classes gets you better fighting capabilities than a Rogue and better skills than a Fighter.

So yeah, when you want to improve upon one aspect of a martialist while weakening another, multiclassing is the way to go. Allows you to play up some abilities of a class. Want a nimble Dex-based Fighter and think he should have Evasion? Two levels of Rogue solves! Want a wilderness-focused Barbarian? Take some Ranger! Multiclassing really just enables building the exact character you want with just the abilities you want.


Ranger 2/Fighter 2 has many more feats than Ranger 4, and much better Archery-skills than Fighter 4, just as an example.

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-09, 12:49 AM
There are some feats which can make some classes better (eg: Swift Hunter requires 1 Ranger level and 3 Scout levels and it makes your Ranger and Scout levels stack for the purpose of deciding how effective Skirmish and Favoured Enemy are).

sofawall
2009-06-09, 01:02 AM
Flurry of Blows (which works with daggers

No it doesn't. Not without a Prestige Class, anyway.

Jayngfet
2009-06-09, 01:21 AM
My DM ran an undead based game, and no PC is evil.6 feats, I open PHB2 and see these sacred healing and sacred purification, but I also see heritige sorc feats two pages down.Then I multiclass, taking celestial sorc lance, wings, and heritige, and sacred healing and purification. Throw in extra and exalted turning. So now I'm killing up to 3 per round and healing simultaniously, and can do it mid air so no one hits me. It also helps sorcs versitiliy due to clr spells and lance. Multiclassing in action.

sonofzeal
2009-06-09, 01:31 AM
No it doesn't. Not without a Prestige Class, anyway.
It's ambiguous because of the arbitrary (and imo incomplete) spelled-out list there, but "dagger" is on the list of monk weapons too. I'd hate to play with a DM so rigid as to disallow flurry with daggers, since there's only 13 weapons Monks are proficient with in the first place.

Keld Denar
2009-06-09, 03:14 AM
Multiclassing for melee characters is about the ONLY amount of customization you get. Casters can opt to mem different spells on different days, depending on what bases they want to cover. A melee character HAS to multiclass to cover any bases at all. Its just the way it works. Without it, you are stuck with fewer options, and very limited possibilities to expand your options (feats only). Multiclassing and taking prestige classes can cover the various weaknesses you may be experiencing. Tired of domination? 5 levels of Occult Slayer, 4 levels of Illithid Slayer, or 3 levels of Holy Liberator keep the baddies out of your head, depending on which set of prereqs you can meet. Need to up your damage a bit? Frenzied Berzerker increases your PA damage, and Exotic Weapon Master can give you a bigger bang for your strength buck if you use the right weapon. Etc.

Cicciograna
2009-06-09, 03:38 AM
Multiclassing for melee characters is about the ONLY amount of customization you get.
Unless you use ToB, obviously.

Anyway, while I like multiclassing, I admit that there was a time when I loathed it. When one of my players was Rog1/Clr2/Fgt2/Rgr2/Bbr2, and planning to take some levels in I can't remember which PrC. His PC was horrifying, RPG-wise speaking: powerplayers and munchkins are one of the plagues of RPG...

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 04:08 AM
It's ambiguous because of the arbitrary (and imo incomplete) spelled-out list there, but "dagger" is on the list of monk weapons too. I'd hate to play with a DM so rigid as to disallow flurry with daggers, since there's only 13 weapons Monks are proficient with in the first place.

Sorry to off-topic, but it's really not ambiguous at all; the Flurry of Blows ability specifically lists what weapons (from the PHB) that can be used for a flurry and dagger isn't one of them. Monks are proficient with daggers but they can't be flurried. There's Feats and at least one PrC that allows flurry with other weapons, but as standard it's Special Monk Weapons and unarmed strikes only.

OT: As has been mentioned, multiclassing is generally a good option for melee types and not-so-good for caster types mechanically, but I personally tend to use multiclassing to try and fit the character idea that I'm going for. For Example:

Holy man that has studied the arcane? Cleric/Wizard

Travelling minstrel that has 'found god' and wants to take the fight to the enemy? Bard/Paladin (possible with the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer)

Streetwise Thug? Rogue/Barbarian or Rogue/Fighter

Militant Druid? Druid/Barbarian or Druid/Ranger

Gaiyamato
2009-06-09, 05:21 AM
One of my favourites is Barbarian 2 - Berserker Strength/Warblade 2/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berserker ++

Gives me extra feats so as to be awesome in combat and gives me two levels of a ToB class. I get improved Uncanny dodge at level 4 and a bunch of different useful abiliities. I also get all but 2 levels of D12s still.

Multiclassing has many many uses.
Getting into Prcs faster or even at all is the main reason for it however.

Rad
2009-06-09, 05:44 AM
Since nobody mentioned it yet, here is a concrete example:
The Fax Coelestis Saph Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)

AslanCross
2009-06-09, 10:21 AM
Mechanically, multiclassing allows one to expand one's options. Of course it's best to choose classes that synergize and/or expand each other's abilities directly. It could be a way of specializing or of expanding one's repertoire.

RPwise, I believe it's a good way of making a character more interesting. A fighter learns a few tricks at stealth and dirty fighting becomes a multiclass fighter/rogue. A barbarian who is good at inspiring his fellow tribesmen with war chants could be a barbarian/bard, and so on.

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-09, 10:30 AM
Mechanically, multiclassing allows one to expand one's options. Of course it's best to choose classes that synergize and/or expand each other's abilities directly. It could be a way of specializing or of expanding one's repertoire.

RPwise, I believe it's a good way of making a character more interesting. A fighter learns a few tricks at stealth and dirty fighting becomes a multiclass fighter/rogue. A barbarian who is good at inspiring his fellow tribesmen with war chants could be a barbarian/bard, and so on.

I think you caught the whole point. Multiclassing it's a great thing both mechanically speaking and role-play wise.

valadil
2009-06-09, 10:50 AM
Multiclassing is advantageous when you only want a portion of a class. Fighter is a great example, especially in core. Two levels of fighter give you two feats. Another two levels give another feat. Two more get another feat. Ad nauseum until 20. Feats are great, but how many do you really need? Did you really need weapon focus for that crossbow that you carry in case of ranged combat but never use? Wouldn't you have been better off spending those levels elsewhere? When 3rd ed came out there weren't enough feats that were worthwhile. I saw players take Run just because they were going pure fighter and couldn't figure out what other feats to take. After 3 bonus feats, you've had all you need and there's no point to taking more fighter. You might as well go paladin, barbarian, or a prestige class.

Other classes have situations like this too. 2 levels of paladin are great for getting charisma to saves, but beyond that it's not exciting. Casters generally don't want to multiclass because spell levels are always good.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 11:20 AM
Since nobody mentioned it yet, here is a concrete example:
The Fax Coelestis Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)

Last I checked, that was Saph's build...

Rad
2009-06-09, 12:09 PM
Last I checked, that was Saph's build...

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: ooops... :smallredface:
sorry about that!

Curmudgeon
2009-06-09, 12:11 PM
A friend of mine (relatively new to 3.5 D&D) asked me at the game last night “What’s the point in multiclassing?”. I tried to explain that some combos can be advantageous, but on the whole, multiclassing isn’t great for most classes. Most of the questions on gamers' boards involve mechanical aspects of combinations. Maybe you're not interested in the best combinations, but rather things that fit your character concept. Many D&D abilities are only available as class features. Like the Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight that works just by being near a shadow. This is a great feature for a stealthy character, but it's not included in the obvious choice for that role: the Rogue class. So your Rogue can add level(s) of a prestige class like Assassin or Shadowdancer to get HiPS.

I was wondering if someone could give me some examples of when multiclassing is a good idea (other than for obvious PrCs like Mystic Theurge or Anima Mage). Preferrably core combos, as that is what he is most familiar with. Combining core classes is less common that evolving your character through a prestige class, but there are a bunch of feats that exist purely to combine some of the aspects of various core class pairings. There's one in Dragon # 357 that I like: Sacred Outlaw, which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Clerics already have a spell called Grave Strike allowing any sneak attack they have to work against undead. With Sacred Outlaw you can create a character who really hates undead, and will do whatever it takes to defeat them. That's neither the best Cleric nor the best Rogue in general, but a character with a purpose, and extremely good at what they care about.

Yora
2009-06-09, 12:14 PM
Last I checked, that was Saph's build...

Yes it is, but did anyone claim anything different?

#Raptor
2009-06-09, 12:19 PM
To go in some more dept regarding the Barb/Fighter multiclassing - the benefits go both ways.

A Fighter taking 1 level of Barbarian gets rage, and if he takes extra rage(Complete Warrior feat) he can rage 3 times a day - so basically every encounter in most games. If he takes 2 levels, he'll get uncanny dodge too, wich isn't bad either.
Now if the player has Complete Champion he can be a Lion Totem Barbarian instead, wich trades the +10 run (useless to a character with heavy armor anyways) in for pounce - the ability to make a full attack after a charge.

A Barbarian on the other hand, gains 2 free feats from 2 Fighter levels, as well as heavy armor profiency - wich means, he has less of a reason to put statpoints into dex and he can focus more on con and str.


Another option not mentioned so far was the Paladin/Sorcerer gish - they synergyze nicely, 2 levels of Paladin give the Sorcerer cha to saves, as well as martial weapon profiency.
Though AFAIK generally the Wiz/Fighter gish is seen as the stronger one.

Artanis
2009-06-09, 01:06 PM
Yes it is, but did anyone claim anything different?
Rad accidentally labelled it as being by Fax Celestis, but corrected the mistake when it was poited out.

Optimystik
2009-06-09, 01:21 PM
Yes it is, but did anyone claim anything different?

You missed the post in question before it was edited.


Multiclassing is advantageous when you only want a portion of a class. Fighter is a great example, especially in core. Two levels of fighter give you two feats. Another two levels give another feat. Two more get another feat. Ad nauseum until 20. Feats are great, but how many do you really need? Did you really need weapon focus for that crossbow that you carry in case of ranged combat but never use? Wouldn't you have been better off spending those levels elsewhere? When 3rd ed came out there weren't enough feats that were worthwhile. I saw players take Run just because they were going pure fighter and couldn't figure out what other feats to take. After 3 bonus feats, you've had all you need and there's no point to taking more fighter. You might as well go paladin, barbarian, or a prestige class.

Other classes have situations like this too. 2 levels of paladin are great for getting charisma to saves, but beyond that it's not exciting. Casters generally don't want to multiclass because spell levels are always good.

The scenarios you've described above aren't really multiclasses; they're more commonly referred to as "dips." This is where I think roleplayers and optimizers begin to diverge.

Example: A cleric who dips two levels of fighter for the bonus feat isn't really a fighter at all; he's just a particularly militant cleric. The fighter side of their build only makes a mechanical difference, and will largely be ignored in roleplay. Ceterus paribus, A Cleric 20 and a Cleric 18/Fighter 2 will have very identical roleplay (especially in combat) despite having different class makeups.

Your second example is even more pertinent - sorcerers who dip 2 levels of paladin for the CHA to saves. They aren't paladins, not in any way that is meaningful to roleplay - no mount, weak paladin powers (lay on hands, smite evil), no divine spells, and they probably aren't even wearing armor or a shield. Any way to justify that dip from a character perspective is contrived at best. The only thing to do is not acknowledge the paladin levels at all, which is pretty poor roleplay.

There are exceptions of course; the most prominent that comes to my mind is using a 1-level dip of a class as an entry to a dual-progression PrC. A monk who dips cleric before going into Sacred Fist is clearly trying to follow both paths in a mechanical AND in a roleplay sense. His PrC gives him the tools he needs to pull that off in a manner that isn't hackneyed.

sonofzeal
2009-06-09, 01:42 PM
You missed the post in question before it was edited.



The scenarios you've described above aren't really multiclasses; they're more commonly referred to as "dips." This is where I think roleplayers and optimizers begin to diverge.

Example: A cleric who dips two levels of fighter for the bonus feat isn't really a fighter at all; he's just a particularly militant cleric. The fighter side of their build only makes a mechanical difference, and will largely be ignored in roleplay. Ceterus paribus, A Cleric 20 and a Cleric 18/Fighter 2 will have very identical roleplay (especially in combat) despite having different class makeups.

Your second example is even more pertinent - sorcerers who dip 2 levels of paladin for the CHA to saves. They aren't paladins, not in any way that is meaningful to roleplay - no mount, weak paladin powers (lay on hands, smite evil), no divine spells, and they probably aren't even wearing armor or a shield. Any way to justify that dip from a character perspective is contrived at best. The only thing to do is not acknowledge the paladin levels at all, which is pretty poor roleplay.

There are exceptions of course; the most prominent that comes to my mind is using a 1-level dip of a class as an entry to a dual-progression PrC. A monk who dips cleric before going into Sacred Fist is clearly trying to follow both paths in a mechanical AND in a roleplay sense. His PrC gives him the tools he needs to pull that off in a manner that isn't hackneyed.
I don't think it's nearly so bad as you think. By your examples, a Sorc18/Pally2 is probably going to be a lot more religious, and a lot more dedicated to proactively going after evil, than even a LG Sorc20. I would expect a Cleric18/Fighter2 to be more aggressive and militaristic than a Cleric20. I would also expect that both have more interesting backstories, especially the Sorc/Pally.

If the classes you're mixing are widely different, then it should probably be reflected in the character somehow, either in their history or in how they act, or both. If the classes you're mixing are similar, it's probably easier to treat it less like multiclassing, and more like a "build-it-yourself custom class". For example, a multiclass Barbarian / Fighter / Ranger / Wilderness Rogue is just a different flavour of savage warrior, and as long as you don't try to shoehorn it into the RP of one of the four classes it's built from, I don't see a problem. Anyone could optimize this combination even if three of the four were dips, and anyone could RP it convincingly too. I don't see any divergence.

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 02:12 PM
@Sonofzeal:

You have to admit, though, that there is a distinct difference between a "Class with dips" and a "Multiclass" character with regards to roleplaying aspects. A Fighter 10/Cleric 10 is as much a Fighter as he is a Cleric, he's dedicated to swordplay only slightly less (maybe more, his feat selection pending) than he's dedicated to his deity. On the other hand, a Fighter 2/Cleric 18 is clearly little more than a slightly militant Cleric or a Cleric that's had a little formal weapons training.

If your character is one that is built of dips, for instance in one game I'm playing I'm playing a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter, then that's a different matter to "Class with Dips" because there is no dominant class. If I were to take 10 levels of the Horizon Walker prestige class, then my Ranger, Barbarian and Fighter levels would fade into the background in the face of the Horizon Walker traits; he would become a "Horizon Walker with dips". If, however, I never took any class or Prestige Class beyond 3 levels, then I could not roleplay that character strictly to the tropes of any one of those classes; he would be something of a jack-of-all-trades in his field of expertise (which is combat), rather than one focused on a single style.

sonofzeal
2009-06-09, 02:32 PM
@Sonofzeal:

You have to admit, though, that there is a distinct difference between a "Class with dips" and a "Multiclass" character with regards to roleplaying aspects. A Fighter 10/Cleric 10 is as much a Fighter as he is a Cleric, he's dedicated to swordplay only slightly less (maybe more, his feat selection pending) than he's dedicated to his deity. On the other hand, a Fighter 2/Cleric 18 is clearly little more than a slightly militant Cleric or a Cleric that's had a little formal weapons training.

If your character is one that is built of dips, for instance in one game I'm playing I'm playing a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter, then that's a different matter to "Class with Dips" because there is no dominant class. If I were to take 10 levels of the Horizon Walker prestige class, then my Ranger, Barbarian and Fighter levels would fade into the background in the face of the Horizon Walker traits; he would become a "Horizon Walker with dips". If, however, I never took any class or Prestige Class beyond 3 levels, then I could not roleplay that character strictly to the tropes of any one of those classes; he would be something of a jack-of-all-trades in his field of expertise (which is combat), rather than one focused on a single style.
But all that only applies if you define a character by their class. I don't. A Fighter2/Cleric18, or a Fighter10/Cleric10, isn't a Fighter/Cleric - he's a guy who can use some degree of divine magic while being skilled with his sword. He may choose to identify himself as a Cleric, or as a "Battle Cleric", or as a different sort of Paladin, or just as a guy who can swing a sword and cast XYZ spells.

This goes equally for dips as for multiclassing as for single classed characters: characters are defined solely by what they can do, and by how they act. Their class breakdown defines what they can do, and that informs how they act, but it doesn't define it, and actual class breakdown is entirely behind the scenes.

It doesn't matter if you got Weapon Finesse as a Fighter Bonus Feat, from a Rogue Special Ability, from a Monk variant, or from the Swashbuckler class - all four function the same way. All people know is that you're agile and accurate in combat, and how your character behaves when not killing things.

Keld Denar
2009-06-09, 02:36 PM
So, a Sorcerer who dips 2 levels of Paladin to get Divine Grace is...unjustifiable? One of the most iconic Gish builds is the Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8....Hes not a paladin in the traditional sense of the term, but he is a devout warrior intent on using his very decent sorcerer abilities to serve as his armor and augement his offense. You could roleplay him exactly the same as a Paladin20. Sure, he won't have a mount, unless he summons one with Phantom Steed, and he won't make much out of his Paladin Smite, but he can Arcane Strike and Divine Might to make up for it. Diseases might be a bit more of a problem, but with all of the ACFs out there, not all Paladins cure diseases anymore. Some break curses and some dispel magic. Heck, you could even refluff your sorcerer casting to be derived from your ultimate conviction to your cause, rather that blood sparked power.

Just saying, dipping 2 paladin levels is actually really easy to justify for a sorcerer.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-06-09, 02:55 PM
Unless you use ToB, obviously.

Anyway, while I like multiclassing, I admit that there was a time when I loathed it. When one of my players was Rog1/Clr2/Fgt2/Rgr2/Bbr2, and planning to take some levels in I can't remember which PrC. His PC was horrifying, RPG-wise speaking: powerplayers and munchkins are one of the plagues of RPG...

I'm sorry, but that character sounds really bad. As in, underpowered. sure, his base fort save is like +15, but he only has 1d6 of sneak attack and level 1 cleric spells.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 03:05 PM
So, a Sorcerer who dips 2 levels of Paladin to get Divine Grace is...unjustifiable? One of the most iconic Gish builds is the Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8....Hes not a paladin in the traditional sense of the term, but he is a devout warrior intent on using his very decent sorcerer abilities to serve as his armor and augement his offense. You could roleplay him exactly the same as a Paladin20. Sure, he won't have a mount, unless he summons one with Phantom Steed, and he won't make much out of his Paladin Smite, but he can Arcane Strike and Divine Might to make up for it. Diseases might be a bit more of a problem, but with all of the ACFs out there, not all Paladins cure diseases anymore. Some break curses and some dispel magic. Heck, you could even refluff your sorcerer casting to be derived from your ultimate conviction to your cause, rather that blood sparked power.

Just saying, dipping 2 paladin levels is actually really easy to justify for a sorcerer.

One particular Paladin 2/Sorcerer X I remember vividly basically treated his natural arcane spark (Sorcerer, remember?) as a divine gift and thus felt it his duty to nurture and empower that spark as a thank you to his patron, and wield it alongside his sword and divine abilities to slay the undead.

I'd also like to point out that while the Paladin/Sorcerer doesn't have many Smites, he does have quite an impressive Charisma and thus that one Smite will hit (in array of his other similar abilities).


I'm sorry, but that character sounds really bad. As in, underpowered. sure, his base fort save is like +15, but he only has 1d6 of sneak attack and level 1 cleric spells.

He's not a Rogue or a Cleric, he's a Barbarian with some Clerical abilities (domains) and Roguish skills. He loses some BAB, sure, but he's got nice saves and a ton of versatility compared to a straight Barbarian.

Thurbane
2009-06-09, 05:50 PM
Some excellent points raised about the difference between class dips and "true" multiclassing. I think the player I mentioned in the original post certainly understands the point of level dips, and of PrCs. He also understands the point of multiclassing for flavor purposes.

He just seems to think (and possibly rightly so), that there is very little point of full multiclassing (i.e. class X 10/class Y 10 or class X 7/class Y 7/class Z 6) etc. I was trying to think of some examples where these would be (mechanically) sound builds. Not neccessarily fully optimized, but not gimped...

AslanCross
2009-06-09, 05:55 PM
It works very well for Tome of Battle, for example (due to the Martial Adept advancement rules). A Rogue 10/Swordsage 10 would make a fantastic assassin, while the Warblade 14/Fighter 6 (never take an odd number of Fighter levels) would make a truly formidable melee machine.

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 06:01 PM
Hmm, we're still looking at non-spellcasters for effective 'true multiclassing' builds, but a Barbarian 11/Rogue 9 isn't too shabby; you get Greater Rage and +5d6 Sneak Attack, not to mention good HD from Barbarian and decent skills from Rogue. All your levels count for Improved Uncanny Dodge purposes too. You're not missing out on a hell of a lot from Barbarian 12+, though you do miss the Rogue specials (like Defensive Roll, Opportunist and such).

Without PrCs and sticking to Core, that's probably the 'true multiclass' with the least redundancy.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-09, 06:56 PM
Rogue/Cleric with Sacred Outlaw looks pretty good to me, as previously mentioned. At the minimum Rogue level (3) you get full sneak attack, full undead turning, fairly full casting, plus trapfinding, evasion, and trap sense (all of which can all traded out for alternative class features, for flexibility). Another level picks up uncanny dodge, and you're still in the zone where Practiced Spellcaster gives you full caster level. The saving throw synergy is good, because the two classes have opposite strengths and weaknesses. With the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant you get classes that are mechanically similar anyway.

Is this as powerful as a full spellcaster? Of course not; the rule for those is that you never sacrifice a casting level. But it's got the ability to be immediately (i.e., in a surprise round and before the enemy acts the next round) deadly, with no buff spell time required. No Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) cheese needed -- though that's still an option. Wait a bit to pick up that 4th level of Rogue, or take Able Learner, and you can be a cleric with maximum ranks in Tumble. Add in Vampiric Touch (from one of the domains that offer it, or the Magic domain via a wand) and you can sneak attack to get a bucketload of temporary hit points.

Mark Hall
2009-06-09, 07:53 PM
Ranger/Rogue synergizes very well. The rogue hit to BAB doesn't hurt the ranger too much, and the ranger's options of ranged or TWF go well with the rogue (especially with species enemies that can be sneak attacked). You can Dex-base a ranger without too much trouble (Weapon Finesse or Ranged), lessening the need for Strength (still useful, not as necessary). The rogue side brings uncanny dodge, evasion, and trap-finding, in addition to sneak attack. Both are skill-monkeys, and so neither loses in that respect (though neither really gains).

They reinforce each other's strengths, though neither really covers for the weaknesses of the other.