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VirOath
2009-06-09, 04:29 PM
I present a challenge to you. Progression from level 1 to 16, as overpowered as you can make it, without items (Though, PrCs that need an item or ritual can be assumed to have it.)

Rolled Stats are 17,17,16,14,10,8, arrange as you please.

Please provide all sources for ease of reading. Any and all books. And please do state focus.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 04:35 PM
Warlock 1 to 12 solid.
1 level of Binder. (tome of Magic)
3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. (Fiendish Codex 1 or 2, dont remember)

Flavor to taste, but that's about as cheesy as a warlock gets. Loads and loads of damage output with no real drawback.

Random NPC
2009-06-09, 05:08 PM
Warlock 1 to 12 solid.
1 level of Binder. (tome of Magic)
3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. (Fiendish Codex 1 or 2, dont remember)

Flavor to taste, but that's about as cheesy as a warlock gets. Loads and loads of damage output with no real drawback.

That's pretty much it. And it's Fiendish Codex II.

As a Hellfire Warlock you take con damage to increase your Eldritch Blast. With the level Binder and the vestige of Naberius you heal that con damage every round.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 05:11 PM
Three levels of Legacy Champion to top it off.

You don't need to dip binder, you just need the feat Bind Vestige.

Or you could go Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest to gain what is effectively DR1 to ability damage. This one may not work though.

Arakune
2009-06-09, 05:11 PM
There's a meele warlock who abuses the Eldritch glaive invocation.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-09, 05:14 PM
Three levels of Legacy Champion to top it off.

You don't need to dip binder, you just need the feat Bind Vestige.

Or you could go Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest to gain what is effectively DR1 to ability damage. This one may not work though.

If I remember right you ave to actually lose the con for it to work

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 05:15 PM
If I remember right you ave to actually lose the con for it to work

Immunity to ability damage prevents the thing from working.

The question is if having DR1 to damage counts as being immune to damage.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 05:16 PM
Wouldn't the Binding-feats be sufficient for the preventation effect? Also, I have the feeling Eldritch Disciple [CM] could perform better here. Divine Powered Hellfire Eldritch Glaive [Dragon Magic]? Sounds pretty good. You could also prepare a crapton of Lesser Restorations if your DM nukes the reduction to Con-damage as preventation preventing the use of Naberius (basically, Hellfire Warlock deals extra damage with Eldritch Blast, but takes 1 point of Con damage for it, and can't use this ability if he's immune to Con-damage; however, you can use Binding to reduce all ability damage taken by 1, not being immune but still taking 0 damage each time. Some DMs may nuke this as preventation preventing the use of the ability, others may not.

Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 8/Hellfire Warlock 3 seems solid: Eldritch Blast at 6d6 and Invocations of a level 12 Warlock, Hellfire 6d6 for a total of 12d6 Eldritch Blast along with the spellcasting of a Cleric 11. You lose out on Deceive Item and Imbue Item, but as you stated "no items", that wouldn't be a big part of your game plan anyways, especially with Cleric-levels to enable the use of a large number of items to start with.

Edit: Stats:
17 Cha
17 Wis
14 Con
16 Dex
10 Int
8 Str (just use Weapon Finesse or something) Alternatively, switch 8 to Int, 16 to Str and 10 to Dex and wear a bit heavier armor (Battle Caster allows you to wear a medium armor without ACF giving you Mithril Full-Plate)


Condensed Sources:
Warlock [Complete Arcane]
Cleric [Player's Handbook]
Divine Power [Player's Handbook]
Hellfire Warlock [Fiendish Codex II; Online on WoTC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)]
Eldritch Disciple [Complete Mage]
"Eldritch Glaive"-Invocation [Dragon Magic]
"Strongheart Vest"-Soulmeld [Magic of Incarnum]
Shape Soulmeld [Magic of Incarnum]
"Naberius"-Vestige [Tome of Magic]
Bind Vestige [Tome of Magic]
Battle Caster [Complete Arcane]

Hat-Trick
2009-06-09, 05:17 PM
Hellfire warlock can't be used if you're immune to the ability damage. There's controversy over whether ignoring one point of CON damage per hit constitutes immunity due to the ability damage only being one at a time.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-09, 05:20 PM
Gnome race, Warlock X, Hellfire Warlock 3, Evil version of Enlightened Spirit X ; Sprinkle in 3 levels of Devil Bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana), and you have yourself a Warlock :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-09, 05:32 PM
Three levels of Legacy Champion to top it off.

You don't need to dip binder, you just need the feat Bind Vestige.

Or you could go Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest to gain what is effectively DR1 to ability damage. This one may not work though.

Improved Binding doesn't grant Faster Ability Healing. It grants only the skills that particular vestige offers. Even the improved version doesn't work. You have to use the level of Binder.


Full cheese version: Binder 1/Warlock 10/Hellfire Warlock 2/Legacy Champion 2/Uncanny Trickster 2/Major Bloodline (any) 3

Apply Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster to Hellfire Warlock, then the Bloodlines up the benefits of Hellfire Blast from the normal 8d6 (from 4 effective levels in Hellfire Warlock) to 30d6.

That's the cheesiest interpretation to Min/Max a Warlock.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 05:32 PM
yeah, the Strongheart Vest trick is potentially DM-iffy. Naberius is perfectly AOK though, because it doesn't prevent the damage in any way, it just gives you Fast Healing 1 for Ability Damage, thus effectively repairing any damage you take from the ability.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 05:38 PM
Now that I think about it, Ur-Priest is probably the better companion for Eldritch Disciple anyways since you end up with level 9 spells that way. So I'd suggest something like:
Warlock 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple X

Of course, for pure damage, the ability continuation classes (Legacy Champion, Uncanny Trickster, etc.) on Hellfire Warlock take it home. And dipping one level of Binder (instead of Mindbender, perfectly doable) would get you Naberius if that's the way you wanna go (whee, some more dabbling with arcane evil!). I personally prefer having the Ur-Priest casting along with the Eldritch Disciple toys since Divine casting kicks so much ass, but YMMV.

Bloodlines probably give you a bit more of both with less Eldritch Disciple-levels to also advance Hellfire Warlock.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-09, 05:40 PM
Immunity to ability damage prevents the thing from working.

The question is if having DR1 to damage counts as being immune to damage.

Not...specifically? I'd rule it as such but its not outright ability damage immunity like some monsters have

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-09, 06:33 PM
Mine is a gestalt focused on instant annihilation of any foe possible. :smalltongue:

Name: "100% Natural Lazer Beams"
Build: Pixie Artificer 10/Incarnate 2 // Warlock 11/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8-4 (4), DEX 17+8+3 (28), CON 14 (14), INT 16+6 (22), WIS 10 (10), CHA 17+6+1 (24)
Alignment: Must be Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 5
Power Break: ECL 10

{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | Feats | Invocations
1 | LA | Warlock | Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast)[Savage Species], Weapon Finesse[RBF], Dodge[RBF] | Baleful Utterance
2 | LA | Warlock | | See the Unseen
3 | LA | Warlock | Fly-By Attack |
4 | Incarnate | Warlock | | Eldritch Glaive [Dragon Magic]
5 | Incarnate | Warlock | |
6 | Artificer | Warlock | Empower SLA (Eldritch Blast) | Brimstone Blast
7 | Artificer | Warlock | |
8 | Artificer | Warlock | | Flee the Scene
9 | Artificer | Warlock | Maximize SLA (Eldritch Blast)[CompArc] |
10 | Artificer | Hellfire Warlock | | Eldritch Chain
11 | Artificer | Hellfire Warlock | | Repelling Blast
12 | Artificer | Hellfire Warlock | Quicken SLA (Eldritch Blast) |
13 | Warlock | Uncanny Trickster | | Voracious Dispelling
14 | Artificer | Uncanny Trickster | |
15 | Artificer | Uncanny Trickster | Quicken SLA (Flee the Scene) | Wall of Perilous Flame
16 | Artificer | Warlock | | Dark Foresight
[/table]

Offense: Eldritch Blast +7d6 from levels, and +10d6 Hellfire Blast. Metamagic SLA's combine with a few typical Warlock items from MIC like a Greater Chausible of Fell Power and a Wand of Divine Power and this Pixie hits for 8 rounds (4 Quickened) of Empowered(Maximized(19d6)) damage (approximately 1178 Force damage.) It's possible to do more total damage with Eldritch Chain, but requires spells/items to increase caster level and the damage is spread out a great deal more.

Defense: Reasonable high Spell Resistance 31, Greater Invisibility at will, Super high Dexterity, Cannot be suprised or flatfooted, able to use Dispel Magic at will, dimension door at will and as a Swift action (3/day), Pixie SLA's 1/day, Resists low amounts of ability damage.

Weaknesses: Not immune to anything just very resistant, needs protection from Negative levels.

Thanks for help formatting this Fax_Celestis!

Emong
2009-06-09, 06:36 PM
Mine is a gestalt focused on instant annihilation of any foe possible. :smalltongue:

Name: "100% Natural Lazer Beams"

Isn't Pixie LA +4?

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-09, 06:37 PM
Yes, but at ECL 16, you can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) your first level of Pixie LA.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 06:37 PM
Name: "100% Natural Lazer Beams"
Look like implants to me.

Emong
2009-06-09, 06:38 PM
Yes, but at ECL 16, you can buy off your first level of Pixie LA.

Ah, that makes sense then.

Mark Hall
2009-06-09, 07:56 PM
I've always liked the Warlock/Chameleon combination. May not be powerful, but it is versatile.

Darrin
2009-06-09, 11:29 PM
Start with Hengeyokai (OA race, LA +0 per 3.5 errata). Turn into a Sparrow (fine size, Dex 23, AC 24, Fly 50'). At level 1, you have a +14 bonus on your ranged touch attacks (+8 size modifier, +6 Dex modifier). From there, Hellfire Warlock + Strongheart Vest or Binder 1 as your DM allows. Also another possible dip: Warblade 1 to pick up Iron Heart Surge (or at least the prereq for it).

If you want more than one attack per round, Eldritch Glaive + Shorten Grip + Confound the Big Folk. Dip into Assassin/Avenger for sneak attack and a couple divination spells, and you can finish off with Unseen Seer, adding sneak attack damage to your eldritch hellfire blasts.

But if you want just a straight-up Hellfire Sparrow:

Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3
Feats:
1) Blend into Shadows (Drow of the Underdark)
3) Blindfight
6) Mage Slayer (CompArc)
9) Pierce Magical Concealment (CompArc)
12) Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest (MoI)

Focus: Eensy-Weensy Flying Bazooka.

At ECL 1, without any skill ranks or item bonuses, a fine-sized sparrow has a +2 bonus on Hide checks when Sniping (that's with the -20 penalty). Even without Blend into Shadows, hiding is easy: just fly behind one of the other PCs, popping up to snipe at whatever you want to fry to a crisp. Add in darkness at will and Pierce Magical Concealment, and anything that can actually hit you still has a 20% miss chance.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-10, 01:15 AM
At ECL 1, without any skill ranks or item bonuses, a fine-sized sparrow has a +2 bonus on Hide checks when Sniping (that's with the -20 penalty). Even without Blend into Shadows, hiding is easy: just fly behind one of the other PCs, popping up to snipe at whatever you want to fry to a crisp. Add in darkness at will and Pierce Magical Concealment, and anything that can actually hit you still has a 20% miss chance.


Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.
HIDING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg

Draz74
2009-06-10, 01:27 AM
Of course, for pure damage, the ability continuation classes (Legacy Champion, Uncanny Trickster, etc.) on Hellfire Warlock take it home. [snip]

Bloodlines probably give you a bit more of both with less Eldritch Disciple-levels to also advance Hellfire Warlock.

This. If you're wondering what the ultimate Warlock-specific cheese in the game is, classes/options that "advance" Hellfire Warlock beyond 3 levels definitely get my vote.

Alleine
2009-06-10, 01:44 AM
@Sinfire Titan

You build seemed really strange and involved unnecessary classes. Then I re-read the description of what bloodlines do for the purposes of level based abilities.

:eek:

namo
2009-06-10, 08:37 AM
The other benefit of Naberius is to make you a Diplomancer at early levels (pick up Beguiling Influence).

On the other hand, it's controversial whether Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster can progress a PrC beyond its limit...
(I say no.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-10, 09:25 AM
@Sinfire Titan

You build seemed really strange and involved unnecessary classes. Then I re-read the description of what bloodlines do for the purposes of level based abilities.

:eek:

You can thank TO for that build.

woodenbandman
2009-06-10, 09:26 AM
30d6 isn't really even that much damage. That averages to ~150 per round. A lot of competent melees/ranged damage dealers do more than that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-10, 09:38 AM
30d6 isn't really even that much damage. That averages to ~150 per round. A lot of competent melees/ranged damage dealers do more than that.

But 39d6 per attack with Glaive is somewhat decent. It's at least better than normal EG without Hellfire Warlock.

JeenLeen
2009-06-10, 09:45 AM
What book is Legacy Champion from?

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-10, 09:55 AM
What book is Legacy Champion from?

Weapons of Legacy. Go figure, eh?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-10, 07:59 PM
Warlock13/Chameleon2.

I can make any item. Ever. Use shifting feat from Chameleon for item creation feat of flavor for that day. Warlock 12 allows me to make any item with a sufficiently easy Spellcraft check and the appropriate feat.

I am Batman, I just do everything from toys. Fortunately, I take 10 on UMD checks, and DC's on my invocations are based on CHA as well, so there's no possible way I can fail them.

DownwardSpiral
2009-06-10, 11:46 PM
Wait, someone else did gestalt, are we actually doing that?

Because Talic did THE BEST warlock gestalt I've ever seen. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4248799&postcount=32) Just lop off the final four levels, utterdark blast was the lynchpin of it anyways.

Seriously, I'm in love with that build. I got evolved undead banned at my table for a bit when I had it in my gestalt undead build.

VirOath
2009-06-11, 01:13 AM
No, Gesalt isn't going to fly. But this campaign is getting tweaked out to all hell in terms of the other players, so I've gotten the green light to hit it up as cheesy min/maxed as possible. Combat going to be a sidetrack to it. But any Race/Class/PrC combo is allowed, within 16 levels

So far, I've written up a Warlock 6/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Eld Disc 7 to start with, dead feats in Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil).

I've already expressed interest in an Item of Legacy to be custom crafted for me, I won't be deciding what is on it or paying the EXP cost. That will unlock Legacy Champion for levels past 20. The next 4 levels will likely be Eld Disc 1(2)/Hellfire Warlock 3(2) after.

We have both agreed that damage of 0 due to DR is different than being immune and not taking damage at all before hand anyways. Originally posted to see if people could come up with something more sick.

Or a way of fast tracking a few PrCs due to given abilities from races, LA +1 max...


Also: I've been planning on making use of Dead Walk and Rebuke/Command, since he is evil and can get away with it. Easy ways of amping that up would be cool too, I've never played a character that used necromancy in this fashion.

DownwardSpiral
2009-06-11, 01:32 AM
So far, I've written up a Warlock 6/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Eld Disc 7 to start with, dead feats in Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil).


Alright, be sure to get utterdark blast, and some sort of blast shape so you can blast people with negitive levels and heal minions at the same time. Try to swing necropolitian or just tomb-tainted soul, so you don't have to worry about hitting yourself.

Alleine
2009-06-11, 02:06 AM
Also: I've been planning on making use of Dead Walk and Rebuke/Command, since he is evil and can get away with it. Easy ways of amping that up would be cool too, I've never played a character that used necromancy in this fashion.

The Rod of Undead Mastery from Libris Mortis ought to be of interest to you there. It doubles the number of undead you can control.

If you REALLY like the undead angle, there are a whole slew of feats to increase the strength of your untiring legions, first and foremost being Corpsecrafter from the same book gives a not unnoticeable boost to your creations.

It's best to have a few large bruisers permanently animated for your protection and amusement, but be sure to leave some HD unused so that you can raise completely expendable creatures in mid combat to suit your whims.

VirOath
2009-06-11, 09:42 AM
Cool, thanks! Didn't know about the rod, but Warlock builds are feat strained enough without the Corpse Crafter line. I'll be lucky if I can squeeze Undeath Mastery, the feat (Which allows you to have one undead created and not count toward your total controlled HD yet still be under your control for days equal to caster level.)

Now, would that rod double both Cleric Control Undead and Warlock Create Controlled undead?

And about the previous, Necropolitian locks out Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Blast, no con score >.< (Not that it really matters, 9th spell level cleric casting with 18th level warlock is massive...)

Edit: Amendments, might be adding Major Bloodline - Fey to the mix, assuming I can talk to our DM to allowing Bloodlines to progress as +1 level of existing caster classes, allowing gain of spells known, invocations and eld blast. Considering some of the other things that have been allowed in (Like a troll being immune to fire and acid through templates), it shouldn't be much.

Alleine
2009-06-11, 02:03 PM
The description of the Rod of Undead Mastery just says it double the number of HD you can control, it says nothing about multiple sources. I would just add up all the HD you can control from warlock and rebuking and double that.

hamishspence
2009-06-11, 03:06 PM
Draconomicon Zombie Dragons might make pretty fair large bruisers (they can be created with Animate Dead but retain rather more special abilities than your average zombie.

And aren't stuck with the doubling Hit Dice, or the 20 HD animation limit.