PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] How would you combat...



Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-09, 10:02 PM
Dran

Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 50d10+600 (922 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 32 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +29 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +50/+81
Attack: 10 bites +57 melee (3d8+15) or ray +43 energy ray (see below)
Full Attack: 10 bites +57 melee (3d8+15) or ranged +43 energy ray (see below)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy rays, windstorm
Special Qualities: darkvision 120 ft., DR 25/epic, fast healing 40, immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and mind-influencing effects, low-light vision, resistance to fire 50, cold 50 and acid 50, see invisibility, SR 36, scent, no breath
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +28, Will +17
Abilities: Str 41, Dex 12, Con 32, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 29
Skills: Listen +23, Spot +23, Swim +33
Feats: Battle Roar*, Combat Reflexes, Improved Toughness, Large and in Charge, Stunning Roar*, Thunderous Roar*
Environment: Desert of Wastes
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 27
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Combat

Dran can attack with all its heads at no penalty, even if it moves or charges during the round.

Dran can be returned to slumber either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at Dranís heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because Dranís heads writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydraís head Dran bites at him. Each of Dranís heads has hit points equal to the creatureís full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the headís full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. Dran can no longer attack with a severed head and depending on which head is severed may lose one of itís energy rays, windstorm, or see invisibility special abilities. If all three of the crimson heads are severed then Dran loses its Infernal Blaze until at least one has regenerated. If all three of the blue heads are severed then Dran losses its Rimfire Blast energy ray until at least one blue head has regenerated. If all three of the black heads are severed then Dran loses its Breath of Decay until at least one black head has regenerated. If the chrome head is severed then Dran loses the ability to see invisibility or use its Windstorm until it has regenerated.

Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds. Dran can never have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time, and any extra heads it gains beyond its original number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two heads, at least 15 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new heads appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to Dranís body. Dran does not return to slumber from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid.

Dranís body can be slain just like any other creatureís, but Dran possess extraordinary fast healing (see below) and is difficult to defeat in this fashion. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a head affects the body.

Targeted magical effects cannot sever Dranís heads (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.

Energy Rays (Su)
As a standard action, Dran can fire one of three different energy rays against a single opponent within itís sight. These rays have a range of 300 ft. and each one may only be used once every 1d4 rounds after each use.

Infernal Blaze: A might gout of the infernal hellfire, Dranís infernal blaze deals 15d6 fire damage upon a successful hit against an opponent. Half of this damage is un-typed and not subject to fire resistance or immunity.

Rimefire Blast: A coruscating ray of supernatural cold that brings the chill of death into even a white dragonís frigid heart, Dranís rimefire blast deals 15d6 cold damage to an opponent. Half of this damage is un-typed and not subject to cold resistance or immunity.

Breath of Decay: A viscious stream of steaming acid, strong enough to melt through the strongest shelters, Dranís breath of decay deals 15d6 acid damage to an opponent. Half of this damage is un-typed and not subject to acid resistance or immunity.

No Breath (Ex)
Dran does not breath and is immune to gas-based attacks that require a Fortitude saving throw. It can also survive buried under the earth, underwater, or other airless environments with ease.

Smite Good (Su)
Once per day Dran can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (+20) against a good foe.

See Invisibility (Su)
Dran can continuously see invisibility as the spell cast by a 20th level sorcerer. It can resume or suppress this ability as a free action. This ability is located in the metallic head and is lost when that head is severed until it regrows.

Trample (Ex)
As a standard action during its turn each round, Dran can run over an opponent of Gargantuan size or smaller. Dran merely has to move over the opponent. The trample does 4d12+18 points of damage. An opponent can attempt an attack of opportunity, but these attempts incur a -4 penalty. If they do not attempt an attack of opportunity, the trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves (DC 48) for half.

Windstorm (Ex)
As a standard action, Dranís metallic scaled head can blast an area with hurricane force winds by expelling a forceful breath of air. This blast of wind creates a 100 ft. long cone of hurricane force winds. All flames in this region are extinguished. Ranged attacks are impossible to make while the windstorm is in effect (except for siege weapons or colossal ranged attacks which suffer -8 penalty to attack). Listen checks are impossible. Creatures of Medium-size or smaller on the ground are knocked prone and roll 1d4x10 feet, taking 1d4 points of non-lethal damage per 10 feet traveled. Flying creatures of Medium size or smaller are blown back 2d6x10 feet and sustain 2d6 non-lethal damage. Creatures of Large size on the ground must make a Fort. Save (DC 46) or be knocked prone. Flying creatures of Large size must make the same save or be blown back 1d6x10 feet. Flying creatures of Huge size must make a Fort. Save (DC 46) or be blown back 1d6x5 ft.

Skills
Dran has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, thanks to their multiple heads.
Dran has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
Feats

Dranís Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all of its heads for attacks of opportunity.

*These feats are specific to Colossal monsters and all creatures over 7HD within 100 feet of Dran when this feat (standard action) is used must make a Will save (Stunning) or Fort. Save (Battle and Thunderous) at DC 44 to resist being stunned (1d4 rounds), shaken (Battle), or Deafened (3d6 rounds). Creatures 6HD or below are automatically stunned, shaken, or deafened.

This is a question of simple curiousity. Dran here is supposed to be one of, if not THE, biggest and toughest creature of a campaign setting I'm working on FULL of big and tough monsters. This is of course barring gods, arch-devils, and demon princes. A regular tarrasque like creature. So, after writing it up, a process that has taken me a good two hours or so, I began to worry if it had any easily exploitable weaknesses.

So I turn to you experienced playgrounders. How would you fight Dran here? Note, killing it is a campaign specific thing so don't worry about that, but anything that would kill Dran would put it to sleep instead. What sort of tactics would you use against Dran? Barring Epic and extreme cheese (Pun-pun and the like) that nobody would actually use in a game, I want tactics that people would actually use in their own games.

Admittedly, this is mostly so I can cover any glaring weaknesses so Dran will be a true capstone like monster, but even knowing potential tactics for combating Dran is fine. Or just thoughts on this multi-headed beastie.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 10:10 PM
The only thing I can come up with is a flying wizard with an active Ray Deflection spell who can pelt him with spells from outside of his Windstorm range (fairly easy for any non-Close range spell), though they'll have to pump out a lot of damage to overcome the FH40.

tyckspoon
2009-06-09, 10:12 PM
Well, the obvious weak point is that its touch AC and initiative are criminally low. I wouldn't be surprised to see it get one-shotted by an Epic-levelled combat build, as long as that character has some way to attack Touch for at least one round. It could be done pretty easily with either charging damage or just by Sunder-Cleaving through all of the heads.

Nohwl
2009-06-09, 10:12 PM
celerity then a maximized reach shivering touch?

edit: ah, its immune.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-09, 10:14 PM
Well, the obvious weak point is that its touch AC and initiative are criminally low. I wouldn't be surprised to see it get one-shotted by an Epic-levelled combat build, as long as that character has some way to attack Touch for at least one round. It could be done pretty easily with either charging damage or just by Sunder-Cleaving through all of the heads.

Large and in Charge covers obscene charging damage by preventing the charge and the limit on levels (or ECL for that matter) is 20 since while I like epic, I also know it's horrendously broken. Like Epic Spell: Kill Dran, No save, Spellcraft DC 10.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 10:19 PM
I just noticed something else...if you've got a Psion in your party, the Crystal Shard power could be used to sever its heads at range - 92HP, while a lot, is doable for a 20th level manifester - an Empowered Crystal Shard with Overchannel and Talented will deal 110 damage on average for 23PP, and psions have plenty of ways to deal fire damage to seal the stump. They can get flight to avoid the melee attacks and have Energy Adaptation to avoid the breath weapons, leaving only Windstorm as a potential danger/impediment.

That is fairly specific, but then again, fighting hydras (and their Epic cousins apparently :) is one of the few times psions are actually more useful than a normal caster.

For actual monster critique, consider adding the number of colored heads lost to the recharge time for each attack, giving it a bit more incremental feel towards shutting down a certain attack entirely.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-09, 10:22 PM
I just noticed something else...if you've got a Psion in your party, the Crystal Shard power could be used to sever its heads at range - 92HP, while a lot, is doable for a 20th level manifester - an Empowered Crystal Shard with Overchannel and Talented will deal 110 damage on average for 23PP, and psions have plenty of ways to deal fire damage to seal the stump. That is fairly specific, but then again, fighting hydras (and their Epic cousins apparently :) is one of the few times psions are actually more useful than a normal caster.

Haha, Dran is a unique monster actually. Hmm, the Crystal Shard is a good point but there isn't much to be done about it. Can Crystal Shards be used to sunder? How good are psions at doing 50+ fire damage?

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 10:24 PM
It seems to have serious issues dealing with anything flying at a range (also, Superior Invisibility completely trumps it - upgrade its See Invisibility to True Seeing). I mean, Hurricane-force winds are fine and all, but on those levels, just raising a Wall of Force to block the Wind doesn't seem to require much effort at all. A few Twinned Empowered Orbs of Force would drop it in short order.

I'd imagine level 20+ types would also be immune to being stunned (by the virtue of their type or magic), shakened (Heroes' Feast, for example) and possibly Deafened too. Mostly though, I'd extend it to have higher resistances vs. each element, probably some sort of Arrow Deflection (make activating the wind a free action and allowing him to activate and shut them down as a free action?), some sort of defense against targeted spells (maybe Tarrasque's deflection? A level 20 Wizard with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can penetrate his SR just fine - add Assay Resistance and Limited Wish to lower it and it's mere 19, autosuccess on a negative roll) and some damaging ranged attacks. Spell Resistance could bear to be a bit higher; HD or HD + 10; 50 or 60 (up to you) seems logical and sounds just fine.


If the eye rays are its primary ranged attack, I'd make them free actions (see Beholder, for example), and I'd versatilize its ranged arsenal a bit (because protecting oneself against Rays is as simple as saying "Ray Deflection!"). Maybe give it some other "breath weapons" than the Windstorm? A Force Breath?

I'd also strongly consider something like immunity to Time Stop or Spell Stowaway: Time Stop or some such - that spell allows the Team Player to surround it in Walls of Force and leave it to be eaten by Maw of Chaos or some such. I'd probably give it the blanked Abomination Immunities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) as it is an epic monster and that pretty much covers everything that needs to be covered.


But the short list of what I'd add/change:
-Something to deal with flyers not affected by Winds (or capable of protecting themselves from Winds)
-Ranged attacks that affect people with Evasion and Ray Deflection
-More Free Action-stuff in general; perhaps a Fear-aura too? It needs to be able to do as much as a 4-character party if you want it to be a campaign capstone
-Protections from ranged attacks in general (and possibly, something from Force-effects, as there are a few ranged Force-effects in the game and it doesn't have anything against Walls of Force, larger Forcecage, Orb of Force, Force Bow or some such)
-More mobility of any kind. The Tarrasque has its Rush, Purple Worm has Burrow, etc. This guy just lumbers about firing his lazors, unable to affect long range skirmishers.
-True Seeing. Yeah.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 10:24 PM
Haha, Dran is a unique monster actually. Hmm, the Crystal Shard is a good point but there isn't much to be done about it. Can Crystal Shards be used to sunder? How good are psions at doing 50+ fire damage?



Actually....it can't.:smallfrown: I just checked to see what its range was, and it does Piercing damage, not slashing damage. So Dran is save from TEH BROK3N PS1ONZ!!111!1, I guess.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-09, 10:35 PM
Couldn't you teleport it to the elemental plane of air, thereby eliminating most of its mobility; and then just pound it? I don't know how baleful plane shifting and its ilk works, with epic spells and the like; I'm not experienced with 3.5 epic.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-09, 10:41 PM
It seems to have serious issues dealing with anything flying at a range (also, Superior Invisibility completely trumps it - upgrade its See Invisibility to True Seeing). I mean, Hurricane-force winds are fine and all, but on those levels, just raising a Wall of Force to block the Wind doesn't seem to require much effort at all. A few Twinned Empowered Orbs of Force would drop it in short order.

Wouldn't a Wall of Force also block line of effect to Dran as well? Also does Superior Invisibility block scent? I don't know, because I've never read that spell.


I'd imagine level 20+ types would also be immune to being stunned (by the virtue of their type or magic), shakened (Heroes' Feast, for example) and possibly Deafened too. Mostly though, I'd extend it to have higher resistances vs. each element, probably some sort of Arrow Deflection (make activating the wind a free action and allowing him to activate and shut them down as a free action?), some sort of defense against targeted spells (maybe Tarrasque's deflection? A level 20 Wizard with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can penetrate his SR just fine - add Assay Resistance and Limited Wish to lower it and it's mere 19, autosuccess on a negative roll) and some damaging ranged attacks. Spell Resistance could bear to be a bit higher; HD or HD + 10; 50 or 60 (up to you) seems logical and sounds just fine.

To be honest, Dran is essentially a kaiju fiendish hydra so I've stayed away from more specific abilities and why some of Dran's resistances and such are limited in some (and also so players have a fighting chance, in a sense of the word).

But...

Reflective Hide (Ex)

Dranís mirrolike scales are highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 40% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creatureís spell resistance.

How does that look? How much would it change the CR by?



If the eye rays are its primary ranged attack, I'd make them free actions (see Beholder, for example), and I'd versatilize its ranged arsenal a bit (because protecting oneself against Rays is as simple as saying "Ray Deflection!"). Maybe give it some other "breath weapons" than the Windstorm? A Force Breath?

What does Ray Deflection do? I mean, besides the obvious, how does it do it? What about being able to use all available rays in the same action? Makes for a larger opening salvo and on lucky ray recharge times can make for dual/triple ray salvos in later rounds.


I'd also strongly consider something like immunity to Time Stop or Spell Stowaway: Time Stop or some such - that spell allows the Team Player to surround it in Walls of Force and leave it to be eaten by Maw of Chaos or some such. I'd probably give it the blanked Abomination Immunities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) as it is an epic monster and that pretty much covers everything that needs to be covered.

How much damage does Maw of Chaos do? Cause I mean...it's an INT 3 creature meant to fight level 20 characters, at the most, so I can't honestly give it some sort of immunity to Time Stop or Spell Stowaway: Time Stop and be able to rationalize it.



But the short list of what I'd add/change:
-Something to deal with flyers not affected by Winds (or capable of protecting themselves from Winds)
-Ranged attacks that affect people with Evasion and Ray Deflection
-More Free Action-stuff in general; perhaps a Fear-aura too? It needs to be able to do as much as a 4-character party if you want it to be a campaign capstone
-Protections from ranged attacks in general (and possibly, something from Force-effects, as there are a few ranged Force-effects in the game and it doesn't have anything against Walls of Force, larger Forcecage, Orb of Force, Force Bow or some such)
-More mobility of any kind. The Tarrasque has its Rush, Purple Worm has Burrow, etc. This guy just lumbers about firing his lazors, unable to affect long range skirmishers.
-True Seeing. Yeah.

Hmm...I'll take a look for a reasonable Fear-aura and some kind of increased mobility.

Shinizak
2009-06-09, 10:43 PM
Round 1: Mindfog + Charm monster.

Round 2: Exploit.

Flickerdart
2009-06-09, 10:44 PM
Instead of the mobility thing, let it move at half-speed through Force effects. It doesn't have to go fast, because you can't stop it. It will just keep coming.

@^: Immune to Mind-Affecting, sorry.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-09, 10:54 PM
Hmm...interesting...ability damage and ability drain...does that mean immune to negative energy attacks that give you negative levels?

He isn't immune to energy drain...

a twinned split ray energy drain is 4 rays that dish out the negative levels 1d4 yes? quikened meta rod, and cast that twice in a round for 8 rays...if you tweak yourself to really make that shine you can likely empower or maximise it too. 8*4 is 32 negative levels from two spells provided one can best the SR which should be easy sauce.

and next round it is a 'harmless' 18 HD collosal uber hydra...no problem. if your buddies need you to jack it again, you're lvl 20 party is doing something wrong. =p.

Perhaps an immunity to energy drain is in order...or barring that, the ray deflection being up there...at least make them work to have to go in for the melee touch...or just deny the tactic by granting the immunity.

may have to come up with better tactics if energy drain is a no go.

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 11:01 PM
Personally, I would magic jar the thing.


Basically any will save or die effect will work. Imprisonment works. Bestow greater curse (reduce con to 1) followed by 72 points of damage (say, sudden maximized quickened fireball) will kill it.

Heck, glitterdust blinds the monster. What does it do then?

You can reality malestrom or planeshift it to any plane where it will die, like the positive energy plane.

And its rays really arent that great. I would expect anyone with a monk dip to have exceptional deflection by level 27. You can get infinite exceptional deflection even.

Int 3 is too low for anything scary. To beat epic characters, it needs to be smart. Really smart.


Heck, by level 27 is probably possible to boost a cleric's caster level high enough that it can holy word the dran to oblivion.

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-09, 11:24 PM
To beat epic characters, it needs to be smart. Really smart.


Heck, by level 27 is probably possible to boost a cleric's caster level high enough that it can holy word the dran to oblivion.
Did you read the thread? It's not fighting epic characters. The limit on levels is going to be 20.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-09, 11:32 PM
Since it has low Will, no blindsense, and no immunity to blindness: Heightened Glitterdust. With that Will, the monster will be blinded immediately. If necessary, Expand Spell (via rod) to cover all heads. With a minimum of 18 Int, heightened to level 9, that's a DC 23 there; look for things to raise it. Since by that arcane spellcasters would have raised all their points in Int and hold the stat-raising items (at least to a +2), that would be around DC 26 right there. By the time they have to face it, that's more than 20 rounds of blindness.

Oddly enough, while I see immunity to ability drain, I see no immunity to energy drain. The Energy Drain spell can cripple Dran badly; real badly. 2d4 negative levels is no joke; a -8 to saves can destroy him.

Bestow Curse is another, but that requires the caster to be closer. Spectral Hand can solve that delivery problem.

So, Wizard-wise, I'd go Energy Drain (hopefully with Rod of Maximize Spell), heightened Glitterdust, Spectral Hand (pre-casted if possible), then Bestow Curse. That's between a -5 to a -12 on saves. The initial Energy Drain is meant to soften the monster for Glitterdust, then Glitterdust blinds the monster so that the Spectral Hand eventually delivers the curse. With all those penalties, the monster will be ripe for the slaughter. Of course, that depends if the negative level penalties stack with the curse penalties; in either case, the stronger would apply.

If necessary, upgrade to Bestow Greater Curse.

As for Cleric, I'd go with damage-over-time spells. Holy Storm from Spell Compendium is hilarious because it's at least 2d6 per turn standing there. With the penalties imposed by the Wizard, the point is to keep him standing. This will serve as a "penalty" to the monster's formidable fast healing. Mark of Doom works well with the magnitude of attacks by the monster, dealing at least 1d6 damage per every offensive attack (if blinded, this may not work, but even provoking AoO intentionally means a minimum of 10d6 damage) Both of the above aren't affected by saving throws or SR, making them nice choices for softening. Afterwards, it'll be time for massive damage: since it's not immune to death effects, by the time the Fortitude is reduced vastly, cast Implosion and hope it works.

Of course, both of these people will be affected badly if the SR keeps standing. Assay Spell Resistance may aid for the needed SR denting, and hence the idea working.

If the creature is blinded, things get easier. A Fighter with Cleave and Greater Cleave could take advantage of the creature's blindness and lop off heads as soon as possible. If the Cleric wants to join the fun, it may also join with Divine Power/Righteous Might for extra heads.

Others have better ideas, but these I find effective where I to fight the monster. I'd recommend looking at Elder Evils if only to make your monster a true capstone of the campaign.

Thrawn183
2009-06-09, 11:37 PM
Question: Is this meant to be fought at epic level or at level 20?

I'm concerned about range. Assuming that the PC's can overcome it's DR, epic level or simply magical beaste bane weapons, it wouldn't be difficult to kill it at range. At the same time, It's melee damage is quite impressive. Maybe balance it out a bit?

Edit: As far as the resistances go, do you know that creature resistances are per turn while item and spell resistances are per attack? Just something to keep in mind. Also, implosion isn't a death effect. The only way to protect against it is to counterspell, to be immune to magic, be specifically immune to implosion or to be undead (because implosion still doesn't effect objects).

WaterTengu
2009-06-09, 11:51 PM
poison to take out it's low Intelligence.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 11:54 PM
poison to take out it's low Intelligence.

Immune to ability damage and drain, unfortunately.

WaterTengu
2009-06-09, 11:54 PM
oh, damn. hmm, grr.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-10, 12:02 AM
I was going to say use poison to cause ability damage. Then I saw its saves and immunity to ability damage.

So I'd say a lifedrinker monk from BoVD. Every touch from the lifedrinker deals out negative levels.
To make it tougher, you could make it mindless with Int: -. That'll block mindfog+dominate, glitterdust(maybe) and a whole bunch of other things.

Malicte
2009-06-10, 12:02 AM
It appears not to be immune to stun.

quick_comment
2009-06-10, 12:04 AM
I was going to say use poison to cause ability damage. Then I saw its saves and immunity to ability damage.

So I'd say a lifedrinker monk from BoVD. Every touch from the lifedrinker deals out negative levels.
To make it tougher, you could make it mindless with Int: -. That'll block mindfog+dominate, glitterdust(maybe) and a whole bunch of other things.

It wont block glitterdust, and its already immune to dominate.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-10, 12:10 AM
Immune to ability damage and drain, unfortunately.Ability penalties, perhaps?

Also, I agree with the previous posters. Wall of Forcex4 leaves it useless. In fact, given it's move speed, you don't even need Time Stop or Quicken Spell. Just cast it. Whichever way the Monster moves, you block with another wall. I'd also point out how low it's SR is for it's CR. Any CL boosters plus Assay Spell Resistance is enough to wipe it. I'd drop Imp Toughness, since anything that can deal 872 damage through the fast healing can probably deal 922.

BTW, no one should ever use Energy Drain. Split Ray alone is the same thing at a lower spell level. Split Ray'd Empowered Rod-Maximized(not hard for a Necromancer build, and using no meta-reducers) deals 10 neg levels on average. Combine that with a Phantom Steed and Quickened Dimension Door and you Wight it at no risk.

Malicte
2009-06-10, 12:17 AM
Wouldn't Avasculate pretty much ruin this thing? It does half the thing's current health in damage and stuns. A successful (likely) fortitude save negates the stun, but not the damage. Granted, it's a close range RAY, but superior invisibility takes care of getting close. Spell Immunity (Avasculate) takes care of the rebound. As a 7th level spell, you could have many, many castings at level 20.

922 hp

1 cast: 461 hp.

2 casts (including fast healing 40): 251 hp.

3 casts (including fast healing): 146 hp.

4 casts (including fast healing): 93 hp.

At this point it's simple for a higher level DD spell to simply put the thing down, and that's with no other incoming damage. It has relatively little (Read: no) chance of detecting the cast, who can simply sit and fire off beams to his heart's content. A rod of greater quicken fires off 4 of these spells in 2 rounds. The next round a quickened 5th would bring it to 67 HP, and a standard action blast puts it down, where the fighter chops at it every round while you figure out how to keep it that way.

Edit: Rays are negated, just not deflected. I should read better. Ignore this.

enderrocksonall
2009-06-10, 12:24 AM
Reflective Hide (Ex)

Dranís mirrolike scales are highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 40% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creatureís spell resistance.


I think this is overkill to the problem since you have essentially eliminated any magic. all spells are either rays, lines, cones, or the "just that thing" targeting of a magic missile. Okay, not all of them, but enough of them to effectively toss out 49 of the 50 lbs of pages in all the rule books that are filled with spells. I actually don't have a solution for this other than to jack up the spell resistance.

I do have a bit of an idea on an easy kill solution. at max hp for the body, each head only has 110 hp, making it vulnerable to several power word spells. Any competent archer will get 15 points of damage past the DR on each head in 1 or 2 rounds. Then the wizard can time stop and hit each head with a power word kill. this probably gets around the whole regenerating head thing, since the head is still there, its just dead. Or since you have the whole "i'm not dead, I'm just asleep" cheese, the head will be unconcious.

Also i have a question about the hydra head thing. Since they cant have more than twice the original number of heads, does that mean that if you fight it once and get it up to the maximum, and then you fight it again 2 days later, can it grow double the new number of heads? So if they keep severing one color head, can they effectively eliminate the colors? If the hydra has the metallic head cut off 10 times, and grows 20 new metallic heads, then has the rest of the heads cut off, does it lose all the colored heads within 24 hours?

Malicte
2009-06-10, 12:28 AM
What would happen if you were to Power Word: Stun a head? Would it stun the entire creature?

quick_comment
2009-06-10, 12:31 AM
Power Word petrify can turn each head to stone as is.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 12:34 AM
Wouldn't a Wall of Force also block line of effect to Dran as well? Also does Superior Invisibility block scent? I don't know, because I've never read that spell.

Superior Invisibility blocks everything but True Seeing and absurdly high Spot-checks (starting from DC ~60). And Wall of Force does block LoE, yes, but it's simple enough to use non-direct attacks in its general vicinity (think any AOE spell) or Time Stop, hit it and get out.


To be honest, Dran is essentially a kaiju fiendish hydra so I've stayed away from more specific abilities and why some of Dran's resistances and such are limited in some (and also so players have a fighting chance, in a sense of the word).

But... How does that look? How much would it change the CR by?

Make it 70% for Reflection. It's 7 CRs higher than the Tarrasque, which already has 30% (and sucks for its CR 'cause it can't deal with ranged opponents). And honestly, it's a dumb high level monster. It's also a campaign capstone. I definitely think it deserves a few more special abilities of its own.

And frankly, I wouldn't touch its CR. A CR 27 opponent really needs to kick ass; these abilities merely help it to do so.


What does Ray Deflection do? I mean, besides the obvious, how does it do it? What about being able to use all available rays in the same action? Makes for a larger opening salvo and on lucky ray recharge times can make for dual/triple ray salvos in later rounds.

"For the duration of the spell, you are protected against ranged touch attacks including ray spells and ray attacks made by creatures. Any ray attack directed at you is deflected harmlessly away."


How much damage does Maw of Chaos do? Cause I mean...it's an INT 3 creature meant to fight level 20 characters, at the most, so I can't honestly give it some sort of immunity to Time Stop or Spell Stowaway: Time Stop and be able to rationalize it.

Certainly you should make such abilities natural for it. It could be an abomination from the beginning of time; time has little meaning to such creatures that have roamed the timeless void in the past. When someone accelerates into another time frame, a creature of this kind instinctively follows it.

As for Maw of Chaos, CLd6, uncapped. So on level 20, ~40d6 base maximum for really pimped out CL, more likely being 25d6 or so. You can use a metamagic rod with it though for e.g. maximized at 132. Of course, I just realized that Maw of Chaos doesn't affect creatures with the "Chaotic" subtype ^^ So one would have to use Generic Offense (Orb of Force?) with Delay Spell, or Delayed Blast Fireball with Energy Substitution, or just Wall of Force it into a box and leave an Energy Substituted Acid Fog or some such inside.


Hmm...I'll take a look for a reasonable Fear-aura and some kind of increased mobility.

Something like Rush doesn't seem too farfetched; maybe even as a full round action. And a Fear-aura should be autoinclude on anything Colossal :P Of course, if you go with the "forged in the beginning of chaos"-idea, it could get some sort of teleportation with the idea being it possessing the ability to shift through the paths of chaos in the world, kind of walking through a rift in the normal space and coming out at another point. Either way, I'd see to it that someone who can keep bombarding it from over 300' away doesn't autokill the thing.


And basically everything that's been brought up here is covered by the Abomination-immunities so I'd just toss them in there. Energy drain, Glitterdust and such.

quick_comment
2009-06-10, 12:38 AM
Give it the ability to make 500ft around it shift and warp as if the plane were highly morphic. This way it can subjective gravity itself at flying things, and make land where none was before.

weenie
2009-06-10, 02:29 AM
What level are we talking about? For a lvl 27 wizard this shouldn't be such a great challenge. For a lvl 27 wizard who took Incantatrix this is barely worth getting out of bed for :smallsmile:

The standard tactic for low touch ac foes immune to almost anything is to kill them with sonic Orbs of fire. No SR, can't be deflected by the reflective scales thing and a twinned, empowered, maximized, sonic(elven spell lore, energy substitution in magic of faerun or archmage) Orb of fire deals a bit above 200 hp of damage. Of course you can also add in Energy admixture for another X2, so it's around 400 hp. Cast this twice on it(metamagic rod of greater quicken), and it'll be near death, then just cast celerity and finish it off with another one.

Farlion
2009-06-10, 03:42 AM
If you can think of a way to get a baleful plolymorph through, I think the fight might be alot easier ;-D (Yes, I know +38 on Fortitude save and such, but maybe the number crunchers know something I don't)

Another idea:
What happens if the Hydra attacks a character with Bladebarrier? Will the heads all get damage? Shoot a fireball after that and the heads will probably all be gone, not?

Cheers,
Farlion

Talic
2009-06-10, 04:47 AM
Difficulty getting one through? How about just get 40 level 11 wizards to spam it?

No, it needs to be immune to effects which alter form, or it's vulnerable to the spamcaster.

Alternately, Assay Resistance + Will Save or Die.
Widened Forcecage could trap it until it could be dealt with. You could attack through, it couldn't attack out (need thin pokey weapons).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 05:07 AM
A level 20 Incantatrix can deal over a thousand damage with orbs.

Talic
2009-06-10, 05:10 AM
A level 20 Incantatrix can deal over a thousand damage with orbs.

Wouldn't be allowed in most games. If extreme cheese was allowed, I can get a hulking hurler with a 35 million damage rock.

Or a ghost with force weapons that deal vile damage, fast healing, and a 95 AC.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 05:25 AM
I get the feeling that this campaign isn't really an ordinary campaign.

Talic
2009-06-10, 06:03 AM
I get the feeling that this campaign isn't really an ordinary campaign.


So I turn to you experienced playgrounders. How would you fight Dran here? Note, killing it is a campaign specific thing so don't worry about that, but anything that would kill Dran would put it to sleep instead. What sort of tactics would you use against Dran? Barring Epic and extreme cheese (Pun-pun and the like) that nobody would actually use in a game, I want tactics that people would actually use in their own games.


Bolded for emphasis. Starting off with an A-game PrC combo isn't the ideal way to point out the weaknesses of the critter. I can't think of anything in the MM that would withstand that attack.

Chrono22
2009-06-10, 06:31 AM
A wizard could do it.
Well, first of all I'd play a red wizard with leadership. I would perform circle magic with my most powerful underlings, which will heighten my effective caster level to 46 (as high as I can, not including some obscure magic item or something). Primitive casting should be able to bump it up another couple of points if I desire. I would then use gate to call forth a great wyrm force dragon. The force dragon would shift to the ethereal plane. His natural weapons and attacks count as force, so he can attack this pathetic monster without any risk of a counterstrike (even if Dran can see him, see how spells cast on the material interact with the ethereal). The force dragon wears him down, until he is dead. If it feels like, it can utilize some of its own casting.
If I decide I actually want to participate in the battle directly, my 46 caster level means I'll be able to overcome his SR 150% of the time. A time stop spell can let me prepare some buffs and preparations. If I myself shift to the ethereal, his windstorm attack won't effect me. Six well placed walls of force should keep him from being able to escape. A silence spell should protect me from his sound based extraordinary attacks. His will save isn't very high, so a heightened hold monster should suffice to paralyze him.
At this point, it would just be a matter of me opening up the phb to find the right combination of spells to create a giant blender.

Edit: I use extraordinary power to overcome extraordinary challenges. If my character were presented with such a monster, he wouldn't hesitate to use every power at his disposal. It might be cheesy, but calling on higher powers to assist in the destruction of god like monsters is a common theme in the fantasy genre (see the ending of oblivion or the dungeons and dragons cartoon). I see the use of circle magic to summon a force dragon as the same in this instance.

quick_comment
2009-06-10, 07:14 AM
His will save isn't very high, so a heightened hold monster should suffice to paralyze him.

Hold monster is [mind affecting]

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-10, 07:23 AM
The monster itself needs a lot more feats. It should have seven regular feats and ten epic feats at 50 HD. Definitely give it Iron Will and Epic Will, and probably Mage Slayer and maybe even something like Bullheaded just for the Will save boosts. I'd also give it Improved Initiative and Quick Reconnoiter, along with Superior Initiative.

Assuming the Roars are epic feats, that would make its nonepic feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Toughness, Large and In Charge, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Mage Slayer, and Quick Reconnoiter. Its epic feats would be the three Roars, Epic Will, Superior Initiative, and maybe spend the other five on Snatch, Improved Snatch, Multisnatch, Improved Natural Attack: Bite, and maybe Ability Focus: Windstorm.

It gets 53 skill points, I'd put every one of them into Spot. It can't see through Superior Invisibility, but there's a chance that it may be able to Spot through it. Quick Reconnoiter is also nice to always give it a second check for free if the first one fails, and it works well that it's looking around with multiple heads.

Chrono22
2009-06-10, 07:40 AM
Hold monster is [mind affecting]
Ah, so it is.
A prismatic or pattern effect should work then. Scintillating pattern perhaps.
Actually scratch that. I could get it off on him, if I had my minion assist me, but it probably wouldn't be worth it. A better spell would be Trap the Soul.
It would be costly and time consuming to acquire a 50k gp gem, but there are ways to do so.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-10, 10:01 AM
Alright, if I have it right, then I should make some of the following changes...

-Give it the Unstoppable ability.



Unstoppable (Ex)
As a move action, Dran can attempt a strength check with a DC 30 in order to break through a Wall of Force, Force Cage, a similar force effect, or non-mental spell that would somehow hold Dran immobile. For effects like prismatic wall what would deal damage or inflict some kind of effect on Dran, they still do, though Dran's immunities and resistances still apply. When used against a non-force barrier, Dran adds a +20 bonus to its roll to break through the offending door/wall/etc.

-Give it more feats (The Roars are actually pre-Epic)


Combat Reflexes, Blind-fight, Large and In Charge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Mage Slayer, and Quick Reconnoiter, Epic Will, Power Attack, Battle Roar, Thunderous Roar, Stunning Roar, Improved Natural Attack: Bite, Hold the Line

with three epic feats left. What about Steadfast Determination , Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine), and Pierce Magical Concealment? With 47 ranks in Spot and 3 cross-class in Spellcraft for Mage-slayer

Add some kind of fear-aura...


Aura of Terror (Ex)

Dran can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Dran attacks, charges, or roars. Creatures within a radius of 210 ft. are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Dran. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 44)) remains immune to that Dran's Aura of Terror for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds.

Mobility...


Chaotic Charge (Su)

Once every 1d10 rounds, Dran's metabolism provides a surge of energy and it may move at a speed of 180 ft. (360 ft. on a charge) in any direction as long as it is towards an enemy. If Dran moves off of the ground then it must end it's movement on a horizontal surface or begin falling at the end of it's turn and takes the appropriate falling damage. Flight in this manner is considered supernatural and can be prevented by an anti-magic field.

Either upping the Spell Resistance (to 60. HD+10) which, as I understand it, at least makes a spellcaster put forth some effort to bypassing it and...


Reflective Hide (Ex)

Dranís mirrolike scales are highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, ranged Conjuration (Creation) effects, and even magic missile spells. There is a 60% chance of deflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creatureís spell resistance.

Though to be honest, including Orb spells seems like both overkill and necessary evil...

And...


Immunity to energy drain and polymorphing effects, see invisibilitytrue seeing

With these changes, does Dran at least come closer to earning it's place as a CR 27 monster (a stupid one at that) and capstone monster? Or is all of this too much?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-10, 10:07 AM
Unholy Abomination! I curse thee!
*twin bestow greater curse*
*swift touch of idiocy*


Now its constitution has been changed to 1 and its intelligence to 0. After that it's piece of cake.

Farlion
2009-06-10, 10:10 AM
Unholy Abomination! I curse thee!
*twin bestow greater curse*
*swift touch of idiocy*


Now its constitution has been changed to 1 and its intelligence to 0. After that it's piece of cake.

Immune to ability damage.

tyckspoon
2009-06-10, 10:12 AM
Give it Hold The Line (in the Divine section of the SRD, probably reprinted somewhere else as well.) Large And In Charge lets it prevent people from moving inside its reach, but it's pretty easy for players to acquire 20 foot reach (simplest way: reach weapon + being Enlarged); with just Large And In Charge, you can bounce a charger from 15 feet back to 20 feet, which won't stop the charger from attacking. Hold The Line lets you make an opportunity attack against things charging *into* a square you threaten in addition to moving out of a square you threaten, so you can bounce them from 20 feet back to 25 feet. Still not an impossible distance to reach over, but it'll make them work for it a little bit at least.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-10, 10:23 AM
Give it Hold The Line (in the Divine section of the SRD, probably reprinted somewhere else as well.) Large And In Charge lets it prevent people from moving inside its reach, but it's pretty easy for players to acquire 20 foot reach (simplest way: reach weapon + being Enlarged); with just Large And In Charge, you can bounce a charger from 15 feet back to 20 feet, which won't stop the charger from attacking. Hold The Line lets you make an opportunity attack against things charging *into* a square you threaten in addition to moving out of a square you threaten, so you can bounce them from 20 feet back to 25 feet. Still not an impossible distance to reach over, but it'll make them work for it a little bit at least.

What about dropping the Ability Focus (Windstorm) for that?

Origomar
2009-06-10, 10:35 AM
The obvious answer is to get cthulus help to crush him :)

Stormthorn
2009-06-10, 10:42 AM
Well, the obvious weak point is that its touch AC and initiative are criminally low. I wouldn't be surprised to see it get one-shotted by an Epic-levelled combat build, as long as that character has some way to attack Touch for at least one round. It could be done pretty easily with either charging damage or just by Sunder-Cleaving through all of the heads.

But the thing also has DR 25. I forget what is required to overcome it but by simply changing it to 25/- the thing cna ignore the first 25 points of damag eof every attack. A level 27 character (assuming the thing is a whole CR 27 encounter against four level 27 characters) statted out for physical combat is doing what sort of damage? A big weapon + magic + Str?

1d12+8 (+8 weapon) + 15 (Str 40) x 6 or 7 hits?
Not much when you take 25 points out of every hit.

I would, to make it more dangerous, up its DR to 25/-, then make its spell resistance at least equal to its HD, then give a +20 insight bonus to all attack and damage rolls. I would also make Windstorms range 240 ft and replace See Invisibility with True Seeing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-10, 12:09 PM
1d12+8 (+8 weapon) + 15 (Str 40) x 6 or 7 hits?
Not much when you take 25 points out of every hit.No. Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper on a level 20 Barb/Paladin of Freedom turns that into [2d6+5(Weapon)+15(40 Str)+80(PA)]x2(Rhino's Rush). 214 damage per hit on a charge. Haste makes that 5 hits. And that is so far from optimized I dislike posting it.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 12:14 PM
But the thing also has DR 25. I forget what is required to overcome it but by simply changing it to 25/- the thing cna ignore the first 25 points of damag eof every attack. A level 27 character (assuming the thing is a whole CR 27 encounter against four level 27 characters) statted out for physical combat is doing what sort of damage? A big weapon + magic + Str?

1d12+8 (+8 weapon) + 15 (Str 40) x 6 or 7 hits?
Not much when you take 25 points out of every hit.

I would, to make it more dangerous, up its DR to 25/-, then make its spell resistance at least equal to its HD, then give a +20 insight bonus to all attack and damage rolls. I would also make Windstorms range 240 ft and replace See Invisibility with True Seeing.

It has no AC though; a level 27 character can Power Attack for 20 and still hit (meaning something like 2d4+8+22+40 with your numbers). But I actually like the 25/- idea. Some resistances to Sonic & Electricity (slightly smaller than the ones it has as breath weapon?) could also be cool.

Also, it could warrant the epic feat "Penetrate DR".

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-10, 12:19 PM
Immune to ability damage.

True. Only this is neither ability damage nor ability drain. Your ability scores are cursed, reduced to 1 (or 0) no matter what the original score is. So, 60 strength? Cursed to 1. 1234567 strength? Again cursed to 1, assuming you fail the will save.


BTW, Amber Sarcophagus. Creature is imprisoned, no save.

woodenbandman
2009-06-10, 12:24 PM
Anybody with DR/Adamantine laughs this guy off (unless Epic Weapons automatically bypass DR/Adamantine). A binder who hits up Halphax in the morning, someone with Stoneskin... He doesn't have power attack but he has a + 57 to hit. He autohits everyone but does piddly damage, and any Damage Reduction you might have pwns his damage.

Also give it more options in combat. It's kinda... limited. It deals some damage, it deals some damage, and it deals some damage. Give it, like, an attack that sunders reality.

Nohwl
2009-06-10, 12:24 PM
hmm. it has only 50 hd. a holy word with caster level 60 or higher would kill it.

Leewei
2009-06-10, 12:25 PM
Immune to ability damage.

Both effects listed are ability penalties rather than damage. Touch of idiocy, unfortunately, is Mind-affecting and can't reduce an ability below 1.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-10, 12:28 PM
For fighters, say hello to my little friend; It's a cursed, vorpal, vile thinaun charnel reaver of ruin. It automatically overcomes all damage reduction and resistances, it deals unhealable damage, it severs heads on a 20 and it automatically traps the soul of the creature it slays. Plus it has a cool skull-and-bones motif.

Oh, and let's not forget that it automatically annihilates the corpse, burning it to nothingness and leaving nothing behind. No ressurections for you.

DownwardSpiral
2009-06-10, 12:35 PM
I think this has been said before already, but plane shifting it is still a pretty good tactic. Maybe giving it the plane shift spell like ability 1/week would make it so it's stuck in whatever plane.

It'd be worse if it was plane shifted to the positive energy plane. I think everyone fails the fort save eventually, right?

Trodon
2009-06-10, 01:12 PM
i would throw a lot of maximized disintegrates :biggrin:

Flickerdart
2009-06-10, 04:04 PM
i would throw a lot of maximized disintegrates :biggrin:
Which it reflects, 40% of the time back at you. Bring a dust pan.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 04:16 PM
Dumping Quick Recon and Imp. Natural Attack would free up two feat slots for Martial Study (Steely Strike) and Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge), but that would only solve one debuff condition per encounter - unless you gave it the ability to count as a Warblade of, say, half its hit dice, so it could recover its maneuvers.

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-10, 04:20 PM
Question: Is this meant to be fought at epic level or at level 20?


A level 27 character (assuming the thing is a whole CR 27 encounter against four level 27 characters)...


It has no AC though; a level 27 character can...


For a lvl 27 wizard...


...the limit on levels (or ECL for that matter) is 20 since while I like epic, I also know it's horrendously broken.

Do people just not read or something?

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 04:35 PM
Do people just not read or something?

I was more referring to the WBL, which should keep growing even after 20 (for obvious reasons). If someone has a +8 sword and 40 Str and is level 20, he can do precisely what I described.

Dagren
2009-06-10, 07:35 PM
Certainly you should make such abilities natural for it. It could be an abomination from the beginning of time; time has little meaning to such creatures that have roamed the timeless void in the past. When someone accelerates into another time frame, a creature of this kind instinctively follows it.Ooh, that would be nasty. "Congratulations Wizard, you've just given the thing 5 free rounds to eat you without your allies interfering". You're probably flying, but taking your allies out for 5 rounds is still not a great idea.

Stormthorn
2009-06-10, 11:17 PM
No. Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper on a level 20 Barb/Paladin of Freedom turns that into [2d6+5(Weapon)+15(40 Str)+80(PA)]x2(Rhino's Rush). 214 damage per hit on a charge. Haste makes that 5 hits. And that is so far from optimized I dislike posting it.

You really thing you can hit it after taking a -80 to attack as a level 20 character? What sort of weapon is he using? +20 Dread Longsword of Speed and Brilliant Energy?


Thats way more optimized than i could eve rmake it, seeing as i only own one non-core book (lords of madness) and i dont even have a players handbook.

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-10, 11:22 PM
You really thing you can hit it after taking a -80 to attack?Err, Shock Trooper. -80 to AC.

Stormthorn
2009-06-10, 11:26 PM
Err, Shock Trooper. -80 to AC.

Did you not read the part where i have no idea what non core things are?

Quote me the rulebook.

Also, that seems amazingly broken. Is it a feat or a class feature? If its a class feature that amounts to -4 AC per level. Thats... a lot.

Also:

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
That class also gives a BaB of +80 to a level 20 character?! I mean, +40 Str only gives +15 attack.
x3 BaB progression or something?


214 damage per hit on a charge. Haste makes that 5 hits.
But...the SRD clearly states that even if you have extra attacks you only get to make one during a charge.

Hmm...for this monster it comes down to how min-maxy your players are. If they have the build this guy is talkin' about give it a Save or Die and 20 attacks a round and a DR or 200.
If they build them like i would its fine as is. Well...perhaps just a little bit tougher. I did dream up a really wicked duelist NPC once.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-11, 12:24 AM
Err, Shock Trooper. -80 to AC.

Even if the penalty is to AC instead of attack bonus, you still can't exceed your BAB for how much your switching out. That much I'm fairly sure on.

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-11, 12:36 AM
Did you not read the part where i have no idea what non core things are?I did read that part; I was just informing you that it's not a penalty to the attack roll. Admittedly, I probably could've been a little more polite about it... :smalleek: My apologies.


Even if the penalty is to AC instead of attack bonus, you still can't exceed your BAB for how much your switching out. That much I'm fairly sure on.

You're probably right about that; I haven't actually looked at Shock Trooper - I just know that it's essentially Power Attack, only trading AC for damage instead of attack bonus for Damage.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:43 AM
Even if the penalty is to AC instead of attack bonus, you still can't exceed your BAB for how much your switching out. That much I'm fairly sure on.

You take -20. Two-Handed Power Attack adds twice the penalty to your attack. Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer] doubles that. Frenzied Berserker [Complete Warrior] also doubles it, and Combat Brute [Complete Warrior] gets you x3 base. These three things combined can either lead to x7, x9 or x12 multiplication of your Power Attack based on reading. Either way, it's a lot of damage.

He was using base Two-Handed Fighting + Leap Attack (Leap Attack only works on Charge, mind you) for x4 returns, so -20 = +80 damage per attack. Shock Trooper indeed makes all the penalties apply to AC on Charge, so he'll have -20 AC for his fun.


Easiest way for big tough guys to counteract this is to have some form of an attack of opportunity that allows stopping the charge before they reach you. Generally Colossal++ things have a longer reach than the charger, especially if they have appendages with an extra long reach. Tripping or Bull Rushing or Using Some Awesome Special Ability or One-Shotting are all viable ways of stopping the charger.

Other types instead have miss chances or the like making a bunch of Super High To Hit Attacks miss. But this guy definitely falls into the AoO-camp. Some things have "Robilar's Gambit" or "Karmic Strike"-feats, which allow counter attacks when attacked. This is pretty brutal vs. a charger due to their inexistent AC. Finally, some things allow moving 5' instead of AoO; such things allow dodging chargers entirely (since charge specifies you have to attack from the furthest square possible).