Good none-spellcaster

[MichielHagen]

<edit> sorry, dnd 3.5 :smallwink: (and only core, Completes, Races, Tomes, NOT campaign specific books or stuff from the wizards site)

What are the best builds (i happen to play around lvl 12) for a none spellcaster?

As there are already two wizard kind of characters and a cleric in the party i started thinking about what to play. I have the following ideas so far.

- Cleric/Ordained Champion
with DMM and focusing almost completely on being a melee-character
(yes i know he is a caster, but the way i build him, it's all personal buffing)
- Swift Hunter (Ranger/Scout)
Focusing on ranged attacks and out of combat skills
- Psychic Warrior
Focusing on claw-attacks

Anyone else have some good ideas?
I recently ordered Tome of Battle since i read that is what helps the "fighters" keep pace with casters. But the information is so plentyful i am having trouble on where to start.
The Warblade seems most attractive to me, maybe you can point me in a direction that is generally considered one of the best routes to go with that class?

I am not asking for complete builds (though i could definitely use them as guidelines), simply a "you should look at <class> and try focussing on <something>" would be most appreciated so i can work it out myself.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What sort of character does the party need?
What level are you starting at?

A Cleric of Zarus (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) makes a spectacular melee character, as long as everyone in the party is human. I'd personally use something like Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, visiting the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to qualify for Divine Oracle without spending any feats. Start with the Strength and War domains, pick up the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains in that order, and eventually use Divine Metamagic: Persistent Choose Destiny.

If the group is in need of a tanky character, make a Crusader and focus on Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances. Take the feat Stone Power in ToB, and Shield Specialization and Shield Ward from PH2 are also good to have. If you're starting above 1st level, Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) makes a spectacular tank, or an already tanky character nigh-unkillable. Combine it with a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (wings), and as long as you gain Mineral Warrior before 6th level you'll still get the fly speed from Dragonborn.

[MichielHagen]

Most likely i will start at lvl 11.

It is not yet known what is primarily needed, but not a spellcaster, so i am currently simply aiming for a melee or archer.

I will look at those builds you posted.

<edit> oh sorry, and i cannot be evil, so no Cleric of Zarus for me. Also i cannot be a monster like the Mineral warrior, something like that would not fit in the world we play in, or at least not for playing it as a character.

[kamikasei]

You don't really need much of a build for ToB. If the other players aren't highly optimized, then just picking maneuvers that work well together should suffice to let you contribute. For a Warblade, I'd pick a few signature moves and keep upgrading them to the level-appropriate version (e.g. Sapphire->Ruby->Diamond Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind -> Mithral Tornado -> Adamantine Hurricane), and fill in the gaps with handy utility maneuvers. Emerald Razor + Power Attack is very handy. Using the Diamond Mind strikes that substitute Concentration checks for damage let you sword-and-board effectively for a change.

You can make a ranged character by going into Bloodstorm Blade and using melee maneuvers with thrown weapons. Coupled with Tiger Claw (dual wielding) and Diamond Mind (extra actions) you basically just coat yourself in daggers, walk into rooms, and everything dies.

Given your party makeup, I'd suggest a Swordsage, which would be a little more complicated than a Warblade but might fill a more needed niche. They have more skills, though not quite a rogue's list, but they can handle stealth and have great mobility and decent damage-at-range maneuvers via Shadow Hand and Desert Wind. That assumes you're okay with a "magical non-caster", though, like a monk or ninja - those schools are explicitly supernatural, though a Swordsage doesn't have to be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

<edit> oh sorry, and i cannot be evil, so no Cleric of Zarus for me. Also i cannot be a monster like the Mineral warrior, something like that would not fit in the world we play in, or at least not for playing it as a character.

A Cleric of Zarus can be Lawful Neutral.

Mineral Warriors look the same as the base race, except made from stone. The picture of the example creature at the link I gave was already a monster before the template was added. Besides, at that level you could easily afford a Hat of Disguise and look no different from anyone else.

[Talic]

Rogues need Lords of Madness to be effective.

Half-Ogre
Warblade 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 / Hulking Hurler 2

Start with that.

Next 2 levels? Go Bloodstorm Blade.

After that? Back to Warblade, I'd imagine, and throw dump trucks at people.

That, or go PsyWar, and pick up practiced manifester. 3 levels of Psywar would let you grow 2 size categories with expansion, which makes your rocks more painful.

[BobVosh]

Thri-kreen scout/dervish! Woo!

MM, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior

Fun, and you get to roll more D20s than should ever be needed at each level.

Lets see, Multiattack, improved multiattack
4 arms, each arm doing 2 attacks. Thats 8 attacks with skirmish on each while moving (provided you are dancing). Possibly better with swift hunter, I never really looked at it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe go Human, Psychic Warrior 8/ Elocater 1/ Psychic Weapon Master (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 10, get Power Attack, Psionic Weapon, Dodge, Mobility, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Meditation, Spring Attack, Deep Impact, Weapon Focus: Falchion, and Improved Critical: Falchion in that order by level 12. After that maybe get Elusive Target if you can count Psionic Dodge for it too, maybe get Combat Reflexes if you want to take advantage of Psychic Weapon Master doubling it up, but definitely get Practiced Manifester at some point.

All you really do with that build is Spring Attack in, Power Attack for your full BAB with Deep Impact, and Spring Attack away, then manifest Hustle and use it to regain your psionic focus. You shouldn't get full-attacked unless something has pounce, and most of your powers can be used more for utility than combat. Psychic Weapon Master is particularly nice due to the bonded weapon, and the 13-20 threat range is also good. Sort of a one-trick combat build, I put it together shortly after XPH was released when combat characters didn't really have many tricks available.

Edit:
An arcane gish could also be a good choice, especially starting in the mid levels. A few builds would be Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, or Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1 Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4. The second one would be quite a bit squishier starting out, but is definitely the stronger character with Metamagic Effect: Persistent Spell for buffs like Wraithstrike, Displacement, Thunderlance, and Draconic Polymorph. Either one would need Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Practiced Spellcaster, and you'd probably want Combat Reflexes, Extend Spell, and Improved Toughness. There's not a single character who wouldn't want Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), but be careful because it's way too good as-written.

A completely different gish build is Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) 10. That gets 18th level spellcasting ability and 16th level Monk abilities at level 20, and can cast touch spells as part of a full attack. Use Ascetic Mage to get your Cha bonus to AC, and I'd probably get Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath and focus your spells on buffs and touch attacks with maybe a few long-range attacks, and be sure to get Blinding Breath.

[Ninetail]

<edit> sorry, dnd 3.5 :smallwink: (and only core, Completes, Races, Tomes, NOT campaign specific books or stuff from the wizards site)

What are the best builds (i happen to play around lvl 12) for a none spellcaster?


There are no non-spellcasters at that level who can match a spellcaster. However, all is not lost...

Since you consider personal buffing not to be spellcasting, then a cleric or druid will do nicely. The druid is best if you back up the physical stuff with spells cast via Natural Spell, though.

Psychic Warrior might be a reasonable option too, though it's a few pegs down. I can't help but consider psionics casting, though, even though they use different terminology. Since your party consists of two wizards and a cleric, you might feel overshadowed as a psychic warrior, but you'll be fine if they're not too optimized.

[MichielHagen]

From the suggestion i received i have been working on a Warblade 12.
I have decided to not multiclass, since ToB is already new to me, the group and the DM. I did not want to make it too complicated.

As readied maneuvers i currently have:
- Moment of Perfect Mind (Will save -> Concentration Check)
- Action before thought (Reflex save -> Concentration Check)
- Mind over Body (Fortitude save -> Concentration Check)
- Greater Insightfull strike (Damage -> 2x Concentration Check)
- Lightning Recovery (Attack miss -> reroll +2)

Main Stance:
- Dancing Blade Form (Reach)

Feats:
- Stormguard Warrior + Ironheart
- Steady Concentration (take 10 on concentration)

I will probably get a Concentration Skill of about 25 without much trouble, so my checks will be 35.

When starting combat, i will move towards my opponent and make a Greater Insightfull Strike, using the Lightning Recovery if i miss (70+ damage).
If i feel my opponent is still high on hitpoints, i will use the Combat Rhythm feature of Stormguard Warrior as a full attack hopefully hitting 3 times (and i can recover my expended maneuvers as a swift action).
The round after, i will do another full attack with a +15 damage each time if i hit (using Lightning Recovery if i miss).

Most items and feats will be used to increase defensive capabilities, concentration checks or increasing AB, since my maneuvers can handle damage and saves.

What i have so far

Items:
Tunic of Steady Concentration

Other feats:
Shield Specialization
Shield Ward
Stone Power

Any tips for this build are welcome :smallwink: