Crying baby killed teen?

[Syka]

http://www.parentdish.com/2009/06/10/did-a-crying-baby-cause-16-year-olds-death/?icid=main|main|dl3|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parentd ish.com%2F2009%2F06%2F10%2Fdid-a-crying-baby-cause-16-year-olds-death%2F

Basically dad is saying school shouldn't have done the baby project (where you get the mechanical baby that cries and are graded on how well you care for it). She was only caring for it 12, TWELVE, hours before passing it off from 'feeling tired'.

I'm sorry, she had to have been feeling tired a lot longer than that and/or feeling other stuff. She had a heart condition, to boot. She could have opted out of it.

When I took a class in high school where there was going to be a baby project, my mom and I spoke with my teacher in case it was a mechanical baby. I have epilepsy triggered by sleep deprivation so unless we wanted to risk me having a seizure, I couldn't participate, and my teacher had no problem with that (and assured us they were egg babies).

There are ways to opt out, and parents have to consent in any case. I think this is more a case of coincidence than actual cause.

As someone who has a condition which would possibly be effected by this sort of thing I KNOW there are ways to get out of it.

Raise your hand if you think he's just trying to get money from the school. *raises hand*

[Flame of Anor]

*hand*

But I think we should cut him some slack; after all, his daughter did just die.

[Katrascythe]

*two hands*

If his daughter really did have a medical condition that serious then this should never have been an issue. I know that all teachers at my school were made aware of all serious medical conditions students had at the beginning of each year to avoid things like that in the classroom and otherwise. I'm sorry the girl died but I don't think her parents took the necessary precautions in the first place.

[wadledo]

Well, his daughter did just die randomly, so he does need someone to blame.

Other than that, yea, he's overreacting big time.

[A Rainy Knight]

*hand*

But I would agree with Flame of Anor: his daughter just died. You probably can't expect him to be thinking with completely clear reason at this time. I don't really agree with the guy, but I feel sorry for him.

[Evil DM Mark3]

12 hours of work does not make one so exhausted one dies.

[Dragonrider]

12 hours of work does not make one so exhausted one dies.

The dad's argument is for the heart condition.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, that sounds...
Ridiculous.

Only tweleve hours of care?
Sleep deprevation?

Assuming our supposed victim got back from school and recieved the mechanical baby at 1500, that puts the time of return at 0300 (Which, in and of itself, is completely implausable). Also, let's assume that the daughter settled in for bed relativly early to compensate for what she should logically know would interrupt her as she rests and say she racked out at 2000 that would be seven hours between bed time and return time.

I took care of one of those mechanical children for 72 hours in Eighth grade. Seven hours is not a long time, and any reasonable instructor would prgramme the doll so the student could still squeeze in some decent sleep.
Most people can run fine for over twenty four hours after getting six hours of sleep (Although they will, admittidly be very tired afterwards). I do this all the time.

The numbers involved don't add up. Seems to me the father is just attacking the recent stimuli (IE, mechanical baby) instead of seeking a logical reason.

[Recaiden]

It might have contributed to her death, but they shouldn't have done the project. It's sad that she died like that, but I don't think the project can be blamed.

[mercurymaline]

*hand*
It said she was studying to be a early years childcare specialist or some such. This was not the typical American high school scare tactic, this was part of /her elective work/. She could not rightfully have "opted out of it" and stayed in that program.
She was feeling tired because she had a serious condition, and having raised her, the father maybe should've thought to take her to hospital.

[Syka]

Thanatos, if I get less than 7 hours of sleep I am susceptible to having absence seizures. They aren't 'major' (it looks like I'm blanking out for a couple seconds then I come back), but they can cause disruption. Now, if I get less than 7 but don't have to function for a while (can rest and maybe get a cat nap or what not), I'm generally OK. If I get less than 7 but have to function (like at work), it's not good. Having to close then open at my job (close at 10:30, unable to get in bed until 11:30, asleep around 12:30, up at 6:00) triggered the first absence seizure I've had since I was 12.

When one has extenuating conditions (such as my epilepsy or her heart condition), getting less than a certain amount of sleep can be a problem. I'd assume stress from getting less than X amount of sleep could trigger the event but it's definitely not the cause of the event.

ETA: Mercury, you could also say I choose a job where there is quick turnaround with the close-open shifts (everyone is supposed to do them), but even in those situations compromises can be reached. She chose the program, but everyone involved should have been more mindful of her condition.

[Evil DM Mark3]

If you have a condition like this, or indeed any medical condition expet some mental health issues it is your responsibility to manage them. It is very sad that she died, but if 12 hours of contact was enough then there is no way she should have done the project and thus, if necessary, not have done the training at all. She may have wanted to do it, but when has now quite literaly died for the opportunity.

It is not the fault of the exercise.

[Thanatos 51-50]

*hand*
It said she was studying to be a early years childcare specialist or some such. This was not the typical American high school scare tactic, this was part of /her elective work/. She could not rightfully have "opted out of it" and stayed in that program.
She was feeling tired because she had a serious condition, and having raised her, the father maybe should've thought to take her to hospital.

Plus, you know, this took place in England, not America.
When I did this (stateside), it was voluntary and extra credit was awarded.

[A Rainy Knight]

Plus, you know, this took place in England, not America.
When I did this (stateside), it was voluntary and extra credit was awarded.

Feh. Lucky you. I had to take care of one over the weekend or fail my health class.

[Syka]

We had to keep egg babies alive.

I felt bad for a friend because a classmate of hers knocked it off her desk ON PURPOSE as a 'joke' and broke the egg. :smallannoyed: About an hour before it was due.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Feh. Lucky you. I had to take care of one over the weekend or fail my health class.

If it makes you feel better, opted out of the Extra Credit because I don't believe in the concept. Essentially, I did it for the lulz.

I passed the class with stellar marks, anyway.


We had to keep egg babies alive.

I felt bad for a friend because a classmate of hers knocked it off her desk ON PURPOSE as a 'joke' and broke the egg. :smallannoyed: About an hour before it was due.

We call these people 'jerks', or, alternativly, 'victims upon which budding vigilantes can practice their craft in a non-lethal manner'

[Katrascythe]

We had to keep egg babies alive.

I felt bad for a friend because a classmate of hers knocked it off her desk ON PURPOSE as a 'joke' and broke the egg. :smallannoyed: About an hour before it was due.

I never had to do the egg baby, thank god. My school had too many pregnant teens that I guess they figured it would do more harm than good. I'm not complaining, kids put me in a dreadful mood, especially babies.

For my part, I woulda killed the kid who knocked off that egg. What happened to your friend? I probably woulda let her pass but I'm nice like that..

[Syka]

I think she still passed. Our teacher was really cool about that stuff and I can't imagine her failing my classmate because of some idiot. She let me give my baby a mohawk, name it Sterling Thomas Darling and when it came to the wedding planning, I got to plan an elopement to Vegas. She actually loved my quirky ideas...I think she was tired of all the stereotypical stuff.

That said, I think those mechanical babies are probably one of the worst ideas to do in high school. Want a great anti-baby scare tactic? Show the girls unedited child birth, lol.

[mercurymaline]

If you have a condition like this, or indeed any medical condition expet some mental health issues it is your responsibility to manage them. It is very sad that she died, but if 12 hours of contact was enough then there is no way she should have done the project and thus, if necessary, not have done the training at all. She may have wanted to do it, but when has now quite literaly died for the opportunity.

It is not the fault of the exercise.

Agreed. It's not a pleasant thing, but you don't get to do something just because it's your dream. A person with this medical condition would not be able to join the army or police force, etc. If her chosen line of work would have been inhibited by her condition, for her safety and they safety of children eventually in her care, she shouldn't have been doing it. I understand what you're saying, Syka, but I somewhat disagree. Schools have a lot of students, each with their own needs. Some responsibility falls on the student and their family to be aware of their own limits

[Quincunx]

Slight derail--Syka, how do they tell apart mini-seizures from moments of micro-sleep (where you fall asleep for a few seconds at a time) or are they functionally identical and I hadn't got the memo yet?

I did not remain in my first high school long enough to encounter the bag-of-flour baby project. I doubt "dispose of it within the first hour and carry on" would have gotten high marks.

[Jalor]

We had to keep egg babies alive.

I felt bad for a friend because a classmate of hers knocked it off her desk ON PURPOSE as a 'joke' and broke the egg. :smallannoyed: About an hour before it was due.

Oh, I remember those. We had them in 6th grade. I was the only person in the class who kept it alive and didn't smash someone else's. Probably because I cut out a section of egg carton, glued the carton into a metal box, lined it with tissues, and buried it in my backpack.

...

No, it was not overkill.

[Mr. Mud]

I'm not sure about the school system in the UK, but around here... If I had a heart problem, or anything that a "Baby Test" could induce, and the school knew about it, I'd never be allowed to participate, even with parental consent. Because the school is liable here... If I'm not mistaken, The school shouldn't have allowed her to do it, given they knew about her condition.

Sad Story though... and...

*hand* :smallfrown:.

[Syka]

I had to do a sleep deprivation study, where I was awake for 24 hours then got hooked up to a machine. It was the only way they were able to identify it definitely. I have a feeling the brain patterns are different between absence seizures and microsleep. I also have a family history of it (my aunt has the same thing) and had another type of epileptic seizure when I was younger (last one of those episodes was at 5).

Mercury, I wasn't blaming the school. I think the babies are idiotic no matter what. But I fully agree the onus is on the family in this case, I wasn't arguing that. As someone with a few things that people need to be aware of and I need to know my limits for, I think it's ridiculous they didn't think about the consequences.

[Exeson]

*raises a hand and smacks father on the back of the head*

Plus even if it was not optional you should always put health ahead of class. Always. So I have very little sympathy at all.

[Kaelaroth]

*looks about* I don't know nearly enough about it to raise my hand, in this scenario.
So, all I say: Poor girl. :smallfrown:

[Alteran]

I agree that this wasn't the school's fault. If a person has a disorder like this that they can reasonably be expected to keep track of, then it is their responsibility (or, if they're a child, their parents') to make sure that no harm comes to them as a result of it. If the school was made aware of this condition they would definitely have allowed her to skip this assignment. The school did nothing wrong, whether or not the activity contributed to this girl's death.

I feel sorry for the girl's father, definitely. I don't agree with what he's doing now.


'victims upon which budding vigilantes can practice their craft in a non-lethal manner'

Wait, what? Have I been doing it wrong?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Wait, what? Have I been doing it wrong?

He was a jerk and knocked a class-mates egg-baby down. He gets punished.

Save the actual murder for the murders.

Serious Edit:
Disclaimer: I do not condone vigilante justice.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Serious Edit:
Disclaimer: I do not condone vigilante justice.What about vigilante injustice?

Also, no hand. Legal action like that is far less likely to get results in the UK court system than the US one.

[mangosta71]

Reading through the article, I come to the conclusion that her condition was getting worse on its own anyway. The article gives no indication that the school was even aware of the condition. If she was aware of it (and how could she not have been?), she (and her parents) should have been aware that stress could factor into a dangerous development. Maybe she didn't know that taking care of a newborn is a stressful situation. If she didn't, her death heralds an increase in the average intelligence of the world population. Did she honestly expect to be getting a full night of uninterrupted rest with that thing? I'm sure she was a perfect little child who always slept all through the night and never woke her mommy up, so there was nobody who could tell her what it would be like, right?

Bottom line: If the medical experts can't say definitively that the pseudobaby caused her death, any reasonable judge will throw the case out. I would laugh in the guy's face while doing it, but I'm an evil, misanthropic git.

[Helanna]

Wow, that's terrible. I just can't condone what the father's doing though. Most likely, it was a coincidence. I can't access the article right now, but it seems that the girl had a heart condition? I doubt that being awake for 12 hours, or even a while longer than that, would really trigger death. It was most likely just a coincidence. I can't really blame the man for being irrational, though.

I would like to know more about these absence seizures, though. I was looking at some symptoms and stuff. I randomly blank out quite a bit, and afterward it seems like my hearing and eyesight were shut off for a while - all I can remember is darkness and silence. I don't think it's actually a seizure of any kind, it's probably just me being spacey or something, but it still interests me.

[Syka]

Most of the time (although I'm guessing not always, there are always exceptions), the person doesn't actually remember the absence seizure. The only reason I recognized the one at work is because I'd looked down at my register and when I looked up the customer was holding out money with a look like "Um...why hasn't she taken my money yet?", and I don't remember looking at the register for more than a second. It scared me half to death. Most of the time they go unnoticed because it looks like the person is just spacing out for a couple seconds, but since my aunt had had them and I had a history of epilepsy, we went to the doctor when my mom was noticing the same thing happening to me as happened to her sister. There were a couple times where I remember getting input but not feeling like I could do any output. It was freaky.

If that happens frequently, it's worth going to the doctor's even if it's not absence seizures I'm not sure that sounds particularly good.

[thubby]

i disagree with what the father is doing, but I'm not going to say he's doing it for the money.
it's just as likely he's lashing out after losing his daughter.

[Dirk Kris]

*raises hand*
I do feel bad for the guy, but COME ON!

[Syka]

I don't know why but this actually just made me realize something.

Even if I wanted, I should probably never have biological children. :smallfrown: I don't actively want kids and never really have but, like most people, I have a bit of the "want to procreate with my mate" bug. Suckage.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I will not raise my hand. I don't think he's right to blame the school, but I think he's not thinking, and is just lashing out at the first thing. He actually has deluded himself that the baby test was the sole cause of his daughter's death. It's a defence mechanism for him against the grief.

[Collin152]

I don't know why but this actually just made me realize something.

Even if I wanted, I should probably never have biological children. :smallfrown: I don't actively want kids and never really have but, like most people, I have a bit of the "want to procreate with my mate" bug. Suckage.

You do have the capacity, at least. While I would really prefer not to have children, it's not exactly an option anyways. Not in the conventional way, anyways.


As for backwards-heart-lass, I doubt that the class had anyhing to do with her death. More likely she was going to die anyways. Heart conditions like that are serious business.

[Stormthorn]

*Stormthorn raises a wing*

If they didnt know about the condition then the school couldnt have either. Its no ones fault. (this happened to a friend of mines brother. He felt sick one night and was dead a matter of hours later)

If they did know then they took an educated risk and lost. The parents are clearly highly involved here and they also know what its like to have a baby. I fhtye knew she was a risk factor for stress triggered heart failure they cant blame the school.


Even if I wanted, I should probably never have biological children. I don't actively want kids and never really have but, like most people, I have a bit of the "want to procreate with my mate" bug. Suckage.
It would be a bad idea for me to have a kid with anyone too. High risk factor for heart disease, cancer, and diabetes amongst other things. I was also born with some sort of bone tumor but i dont think thats passable.

[Philistine]

Well, his daughter did just die randomly, so he does need someone to blame.

Other than that, yea, he's overreacting big time.

Need someone to blame? No. Want someone to blame (other than himself, of course), yes.

That said, in this particular case I think there's a very good chance that he's not in it for the money: he's hoping that the court will hold the school responsible for his daughter's death, because he'll feel better about himself if he can pretend it wasn't his own fault.

While I agree that this looks pretty spurious, I'm not going to raise my hand.

[Eon]

I have to agree with the rest of the people who said he is trying to find someone/thing to blame to combat his grief. I do feel sad about the death along with every other death I hear about but I do agree it was probably the heart condition and not the baby.


Sad in the playground. :smallfrown: