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Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-03, 07:21 PM
I've been kicking around the idea of a half-halfling for a week or so now and i think i've got a fairly decent set of racial abilities


EDIT: ***the modified version appears in the 3rd post down on the 2nd page the stats in this post are null and void***


Half-halfling:

These are the product of a union between a human and halfling. They are about halfway between the two parents in size, when they are children they are often as samll as a halfling of the same age, but they really grow incredibly at puberty. Most are raised among Halflings rather than humans (in large cities with a mixed pop. they often live in the halfling "districts"). Humans tend to be slightly mocking of them and halflings treat them as one of their own.


Racial stats:

-Small size: despite the fact they are larger than most halflings, they stil are notcieably smaller than humans

- speed of 20 ft

-Powerful build- like the half-giant and goliath ability, but from small to medium instead of medium to large; they are bigger than most small sized creatures

-Agile: +2 on all DEX based skills as well as climb, jump and listen; they retain their halfling parents natural agility and athleticism as well as their good hearing

-Magnetic Personality: +2 on diplomacy and gather information checks; they are very likeable and mingle well with all peoples

- +4 skill points at first level and +1 at every level after first

-mixed blood: treated as both a halfling and a human in terms of qualifying for feats, PrCs and and other things.

Favored Class: Rogue (???)



And thats it. I think it's fairly balanced for no LA, but if it is pushing the line i would most likely add abilities rather than take away (well maybe magnetic personality). I could add +1 luck bonus to a save once per day or a bonus to against fear. But i don't think they need tweaking (personnally)

What do people think?


EDIT: forgot speed

reorith
2006-05-03, 08:21 PM
whats up with the +4 skill points and 1 additional one? thats sorta exclusively human. none of the other half-whatever have that. 30 feet for speed sorta seems about right if it has the powerful build.

human pride bro.

Rei_Jin
2006-05-03, 08:25 PM
I'll tip into this.

I would give them half the skill bonuses of a halfling, a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Gather Information and Sense Motive, Powerful Build and base speed 30ft.

Favored class would be any.

Doing this gives them their own flavor but keeps them similar to the half-elf (which is the only guideline you get to create such a thing)



Option 2: A half-halfling is actually a Kendar.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-03, 08:26 PM
Well, i feel, quite strongly, that the other half-X races really got shafted in terms of what they get. I figured the skill bonuses would emulate the increased natural dexterity the half-halfling would have and the extra skill points would emulate the increased adaptability.

Powerful build was meant to emulate thier larger than halflings status but i kept the speed at 20 so that they still suffered some "penalties" for being small

The other ability is more "fluffy" than anything

Brickwall
2006-05-03, 09:31 PM
I like it. I can see the need to create these because of halflings like Belkar. He's probably got 1 or two he doesn't know about by now.

CommanderFalken
2006-05-03, 10:12 PM
*twitch*

The idea is just... so... so... wrong.

[/twitchiness]

The idea seems somewhat balanced, but I agree that the +4skill points is pretty much human-only. The character concept is good, though. However, I suggest keeping them to a somewhat rarity. Pretty balanced.

Game On! with your weird litlle half-breed critters.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-03, 10:14 PM
Well i don't think about the How of these guys too much....... which keeps me sane at night........

Thanks for the input so far

Bizwacky
2006-05-03, 10:19 PM
I like them, but I think the abilities are a little too synergistic. I mean, the abilities work to make the half-halfling even better at hiding then a regular halfling, and significantly better in combat as well. So, what you've made is an excellent combat rogue, other than that though, they look good, and I agree with you that it's best not to think of the "how" of these critters.

idksocrates
2006-05-03, 10:55 PM
+2 on all DEX based skills is WAYYY too much. Especially since it already has climb, jump and listen.

I would give them +1 on climb, jump, listen and move silently (as you would with skill bonuses of half-elves), along with a +1 morale bonus on saves against fear.

The extra skill points are fine (as I would probably the half-elf getting them as well), and magnetic personality seems fine.

But I don't like the small size/powerful build. They get all of the benefits of being small sized, but very few of the limits (no penalty to strength, no decreased weapon damage).

Desidus
2006-05-03, 11:47 PM
Wish I had a copy of it somewhere, but I remember an older edition had half-halflings (I think it was one of the 1st ed books, but I could be wrong)...

that being said, seems a bit too powerful... I'd personally lower the dex bonus, or off it completely, but I'm not one for building races.

BelkarsDagger
2006-05-04, 12:54 AM
Half-halfing? Wouldn't that be a Quarterling? ;D

But anyway, I like the idea, but it needs some penalties to balance out of the really good bonuses it gets. And I do agree that the bonus feat and skills are exclusively human.

Minchandre
2006-05-04, 01:39 AM
Can we do a talking pony next?

hyenahyena
2006-05-04, 02:09 AM
hahaha, give em spikey black hair and rename the race 'VEGETA"

but yeah, +2 to all dex checks is insane, seriously, as well as +2 to listen and jump. Oh, and +2 to diplomacy and gather information.

so thats naturally 13 things that they get +2 to, at level one. Holy donuts. Thats intensely high.

Also, why do they get +2 diplomacy when humans mock them? why does crossing human with halfling = something thats good at public relations, wouldnt they be kinda, despised?

And, like, with the powerful build, does this mean that they can use medium size weapons like a human? and still have the +1 armor and +1 to hit that comes with small stature? that doesnt sound right.

Also, wait a second..waaaaait a second...you're talking about..a halfling thats bigger then normal for his race?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm

check out the 'tall fellow' racial sub species if you want an idea on what a large halflings racial traits might be.

turkishproverb
2006-05-04, 02:30 AM
Hm...I'd probably increase the speed before the other stats for size. *Hieght differences affect speed less the smaller the difference is. *

my idea would be: Variant Small size: Smallish:
* +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +2 bonus on Hide checks, -3 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits those of Medium characters, rounded up to the nearest unit of measure.
*Speed: 30


Plus 2 to all dex based skills seems odd, since they only get a plus 2 dex as a halfling, which would be plus 1 to all those skills. *

I'd probably give them plus 1 to a few for both racial and dex reasons. Something like +1 racial bonus against fear, +1 skill check for jump, +2 for climb, +2 move silently, +1 listen, +1 bluff, +1 racial bonus against magic saving throws.

Automatic Languages: Common, Halfling. Bonus Languages: Same as halfling, Might add a few like gnome
Favored Class: Any

Couont it as both human and halfling for all things, of course.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 04:44 PM
Personnaly i've also seen the +1 bonus half-elves get to the skills elves get +2 to as kinda stupid. It seems dumb that they get exactly half the bonus, but that aversion is just a feleing i have

I've looked at the tallfellows before and they seem to me to be a cross of elves and halflings and the size thing isn't touched upon

Powerful isn't nay better for this than it is for a medium race (IMO) they get the same bonus better damage without the AC and to hit penalties

I justfied the +2 to DEX skills as being fair because they would inhieret the agility and natural dexterity of the halflings without being quite as agile and dexterous, so while they get twice the skill bonus they do not get the AC save or to hit bonus.

The human skill points made sense to me as halflings are usually portrayed as living in human cities and w/o their own civilization, which sorta shos their adaptability and the humans get it for the same reason. Also inFR their is a halfling sub-race that looses the +1 to all saves and gains a bonus feat.....

The magnetic personality thin gis because halflings are cescribed as amiable chaps most every gets along with and humans are notorious for their adaptability and ability to mingle and whatnot so it made sense to me, plus gave them something more unique


i wanted to give them a penalty but couldn't think of a STR based one (which would make sense)

Nema_Fakei
2006-05-04, 06:40 PM
I've quite enjoyed playing a houseruled threequarterling nun, which I think amounted to:
- Small, 20' speed
- Human Feat
- Human Skill points
- +1 on halfling skills
Favoured class was never decided, since it never came up.

As to your half-halfling, I think rogue would be a good favoured class, mainly because the gnomes have taken the bard. But if you happen to be playing gnomes as illusionist-preferred...

Ugly_Panda
2006-05-04, 06:58 PM
I think it's too powerful. Powerful build is actually better than having a medium size. You only get the benefits, not the penalties. Humans aren't particularly husky either, they're pretty skinny for a medium-sized race. Giants are pretty musclebound, so they would certainly pass on that trait to their children.

You've given it the only features of the human race, with no penalties. Size isn't really a weakness unless you're into melee. Small mages are harder to hit and small rogues are harder to see and can hit easier.

+2 to dex based skills is slightly better than +2 to dex, since 2 extra dex only adds up to +1 to dex-based skills.

Too powerful not to use it instead of a human or instead of a halfling.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 07:12 PM
I think it's too powerful. Powerful build is actually better than having a medium size. You only get the benefits, not the penalties. Humans aren't particularly husky either, they're pretty skinny for a medium-sized race. Giants are pretty musclebound, so they would certainly pass on that trait to their children.

You've given it the only features of the human race, with no penalties. Size isn't really a weakness unless you're into melee. Small mages are harder to hit and small rogues are harder to see and can hit easier.

+2 to dex based skills is slightly better than +2 to dex, since 2 extra dex only adds up to +1 to dex-based skills.

.


Okay i guess powerful build may need a bit reworking.....

The only feature of the human race i've given them is the skill points, which is the "weaker" of the two main features.

I guess i'll change the skills to +1, but i still see the +2 DEX as more sueful as you get the AC and ranged to hit (especially since, as you said, small guys should stay out of melee)

So here is the modified half-halfling:

Racial stats:

-Small size: despite the fact they are larger than most halflings, they stil are notcieably smaller than humans

- speed of 20 ft

-Powerful build- whne you receive a size modifier on an oppossed check, you are treated as medium if doing so would be advantageous to you. For detirmineing if a creatures specail attacks affect you also treated as medium if that is advantageous (adapted form the jotunbrund feat from races of FR)

-Agile: +1 on all DEX based skills as well as +2 climb, jump and listen; they retain their halfling parents natural agility and athleticism as well as their good hearing

-Magnetic Personality: +2 on diplomacy and gather information checks; they are very likeable and mingle well with all peoples

- +4 skill points at first level and +1 at every level after first

-mixed blood: treated as both a halfling and a human in terms of qualifying for feats, PrCs and and such things.

Favored Class: Rogue

reorith
2006-05-04, 07:55 PM
idk man, that +4 skill points and the additional 1 seems to sully human pride

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 08:01 PM
idk man, that +4 skill points and the additional 1 seems to sully human pride


Well, i've seen races with the bonus feat (and no LA to boot) and their other stuff, so i don't see a huge problem aside from lack of precedent

ok it was only one race..... but it was a halfling sub-race.......

BelkarsDagger
2006-05-04, 09:06 PM
I think it's still too powerful. You need some penalties to balance it out.

Jestir256
2006-05-04, 09:17 PM
I'm not even going to comment on the balance of the idea; my brain is completely squished by the terrifying biological imponderables. Consider:

-If the half-halfling's father is the human, her mother is going to have an AWFUL pregnancy. The fetus would grow too fast and too much; they'd HAVE to c-section. All this assuming the fetus isn't killed by the confines of its mother's body.
-If the half-halfling's mother is the human, things get a little easier. I guess she'd be proof that size really doesn't matter.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 09:30 PM
Well, i decided, (and put in the flavor text, i thiink) that they were halfling sized until puberty when they shot up like.... like..... something reall fast or tall....which ever is appropo

Mr Imp: What sort of penalty do you suggest?, i can't really think of one that is flavorful, but is it really needed, not all races have them..... or is it a question of the races power? In which case i am stumped as to one that would work

Zeal
2006-05-04, 10:50 PM
I think a half-Halfling is included in the Monster Manuel as a sub-race of Halflings. Tall-Folk or something along those lines.

BelkarsDagger
2006-05-04, 10:56 PM
well maybe because humans mock them you could only have the diplomacy bonus be for when they interact with halflings, or other Half-halflings.

No bonus feat and skills

No listen bonus, but retain the athletic bonuses

Those are the only things I could think of, but its your creation. Do with it what you will.

idksocrates
2006-05-04, 11:36 PM
In my opinion, the only thing you need to change now is just to DROP the bonus on all dex based skills.

They don't take a penalty to strength, so they shouldn't get a bonus to dexterity.

I mean, with the modified powerful build you gave them, they get the bonus to AC, attacks, and Hide, but they don't get the usual grapple check penalty.

It would be balanced, I think, if you just drop the bonuses to all dex skill points and give them +1 to move silently, listen, climb and jump.

Everyman
2006-05-05, 12:56 AM
Am I the only one alarmed by the presence of "Powerful Build"?

I understand why your design implemented it (sorta), but you do realize that PB will allow a H-H to always act as one size category larger than it really is. This is a trait (as mentioned) that belongs exclusively to the muscular races. Halflings, with a penalty to strength, and humans, with no strength adjustment, should not mix and grant this ability. That just seems wrong somehow. This becomes compounded should the H-H recieve some sort of growth spell.

"Oh...lookie. A human-sized halfing wielding a giant's axe."

Here's what I would consider....
* Negate the Dex benefit and reduce the bonuses to Jump, Climb, and Listen to +1
* Lose Powerful build. If you must give them something, consider the encumberance ability of the dwarves (pg 14. PHB). It will make the H-H seem very physically strong compared to a halfling without risking upsetting the balance of the game.

With these adjustments, your build's overall power will be in line with the other races. Seriously compare the adjusted stats to a half-elf or a halfling. They match up surprisingly well.

One last note: You don't list any automatic langauges. Frankly, I think Common and Halfling would fit. Bonus languages can be any (to reflect their adaptable human heritage).

Jack Mann
2006-05-05, 04:56 AM
I think a half-Halfling is included in the Monster Manuel as a sub-race of Halflings. Tall-Folk or something along those lines.

Tallfellows are not half-halflings. They are simply a halfling subrace, as the drow are an elven subrace.

There were three basic subraces of Hobbit, being Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides. In D&D, these became Hairfoot, Stout, and Tallfellow halflings. The idea was that halflings took on some of the traits of those they lived near. Hairfoot halflings were more like men (and were based most closely on Tolkienesque hobbits), Stouts were more like dwarves, and Tallfellows were more like elves. Hairfoot halflings didn't survive into third, being replaced by lightfoot halflings. Tallfellows and Stouts remain, though the latter were renamed Deep Halflings.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-05, 03:38 PM
Mr. Imp: if the whole "humans think they are funny" thing would not allow for their naturally magnetic personnality (which is reasonable) why against all non- halflings or non-halflings, that seems too restrictive for the fluff of the ability.


tarkahn: it isn't actually powerful build, i've changed since the original, so it is different, more like a feat from races of FR that was for bigger than normal humans.

idksocrates: I think that while the weakness from being part halfling would be negated, the agility of the halfling would not be.....

High-Chancellor
2006-05-19, 02:37 AM
It would probably be a lot simpler just to ditch the whole 'powerfull build' thing. And instead just nullify the strength penalty that comes from the small size. Then also get rid of the dex bonus to skills, but keep the halfling bonuses to the climb, jump and listen.

But perhaps reducing the climb/jump/listen to a +1, and have a favored class of any.

feral
2006-06-25, 07:51 PM
Ever since 3rd Edition came out, I've wondered why they never made a half-halfling race. I mean, I would totally do Lidda. She's hot! ;)

But seriously, drop powerful build, give them 30 ft speed, a +1 bonus against fear and no favoured class. If you think that makes them better than half-elves, give half-elves the skill bonus too.