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View Full Version : Superfight!!! Phoenix vs. Dr. Manhatten



MissK
2009-06-13, 12:07 PM
As a fan of both X-Men and Watchmen, I've been wondering - who would win in a fight between X-Men's Phoenix (Jean Grey) and Watchmen's Dr. Manhatten (That Big Blue Naked Guy). They have some key similarities:

The ability to manipulate matter at a subatomic level.
Casual disregard for the "laws" of physics.
Still somehow remain friends with normal humans.

They do have very different personalities. So ... if the two had a knockdown, dragout brawl, who would win? And how many planets would get destroyed as a side effect?

Closet_Skeleton
2009-06-13, 12:28 PM
Pheonix. She's likely more powerful and even if she isn't, she's more aggressive.

Zencao
2009-06-13, 12:51 PM
Can Jean be physically destroyed though? Doc Manhattan can literally re-build himself from complete nothingness. If the Phoenix can revive herself similarly (as you would expect from the name) it would probably be a draw.

darkblade
2009-06-13, 03:11 PM
Several small issues with this thread.

First off Phoenix as she originally appeared is nowhere near the power level of Dr. Manhattan. Her powers are really strong but are no where near the God-like powers of Dr. Manhattan. Dark Phoenix is a different story but you specified Phoenix and Dark Phoenix is a very different character so I'll leave her out of this for now.

Second Dr. Manhattan does not have the ability to ignore the laws of physics. Everything he does is precisely governed and controlled by them to the point he no longer sees reality as we do. He only sees it as a series of chain reactions of particles. His whole shtick is that he understands the laws of physics on a greater level then we can ever hope to.

Third Phoenix doesn't ignore physics either at least no more than a normal X-men character does. Her power in the comics is that she can access the power cosmic without the aid of a higher power. In her particular case this manifests as the ability to alter the subatomic structure of matter to suit her needs. This is impossible by our current capabilities but is theoretically possible at least by broken comic book/Sci-fi science.

Fourthly(?) both of them do not remain friends with normal humans. Jean as a mutant particularly at the time of the Phoenix saga was hated and feared by normal people before she even became Phoenix in fact the incident that turned her into Phoenix was because the X-men were fighting sentinels in space (it's a long story that is mostly irrelevant). She only became Phoenix because people made machines to kill people like her because they were already scared of her kind. Further more in both the Phoenix saga and Watchmen a reoccurring theme is their alienation from their fellow superheroes (and humanity at large) because of their level of reality altering powers.

Lastly why would they even fight? Dr. Manhattan is not doing anything evil so Phoenix isn't going to bother attacking him (Dark Phoenix might but again she is a completely different character) and Phoenix is not going to be doing anything that would really cause someone with as much innui as Dr. Manhattan to really try confronting her (again maybe Dark Phoenix but not Phoenix).

KnightDisciple
2009-06-13, 03:12 PM
Whoever wins...we lose.

Zaphrasz
2009-06-13, 03:22 PM
From what I gathered from Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan's power doesn't come from breaking the laws of physics, but rather, a complete and total understanding of how everything fits together (like a watch). He has total mastery over the laws of physics, because he has them figured out. Phoenix, on the other hand, is a metaphysical being. She is beyond anything he knows or can do. So Phoenix wins, even though the Doc is way cooler.

EDIT: Should have hit preview.

Prime32
2009-06-13, 03:54 PM
Lastly why would they even fight? Dr. Manhattan is not doing anything evil so Phoenix isn't going to bother attacking him (Dark Phoenix might but again she is a completely different character) and Phoenix is not going to be doing anything that would really cause someone with as much innui as Dr. Manhattan to really try confronting her (again maybe Dark Phoenix but not Phoenix).Because Dr. Manhattan looked into the future and saw himself fighting Phoenix.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-13, 04:09 PM
Pheonix. She's likely more powerful and even if she isn't, she's more aggressive.

Dr. Manhattan doesn't need to be aggressive. "This world's smartest man means about the same to me as this world's smartest termite." Oh, and as for power, they both pretty much have the same abilities, oh, except Jon can teleport, duplicate, grow to a giant, walk across the sun, phase through matter, reconstruct himself (he's done it twice before), see the future, divert 60% of the nukes the USSR could have fired all at once, and observe "events so small and fast one could say they never happened." Yeah, Dr. Manhattan has at least twenty powers she doesn't, and he's kind of very, very, very, very indestructible. Read Watchmen Closet_Skeleton because you have no idea what you're talking about.

chiasaur11
2009-06-13, 04:45 PM
Phoenix.

Ya see, the Doc is from a deterministic universe. Everything he does, everything he is, revolves around a single, unchangeable timeline. He's fairly vulnerable without that little quirk.

And guess who's from a universe where there has to be a whole police force to deal with all the times people give destiny a swirly? That catches a minority of all offenders?

Heck, Gor frickin Gilla stopped the Lincoln assasination. Doc Manhatten will be lucky if he doesn't go entirely insane, let alone keep up a fight with someone at or above his level of power.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-13, 04:54 PM
Oh, and as for power, they both pretty much have the same abilities, oh, except Jon can teleport,
Phoenix can do that. Plus form actual portals.


duplicate,
The Phoenix Force is capable of existing within multiple hosts, but I'll grant you that Jean Grey never did this.


grow to a giant,
Giant flaming bird flying through the cosmos, check.



walk across the sun,
Yeah, um, I'm going to have to say this is a "dude, seriously?" She's called the Phoenix. You know, legendary bird of fire? Not only can she walk across suns, she eats them.


phase through matter,
Nothing directly stated along these lines, but between matter manipulation and teleportation, this doesn't really make a big difference anyways. Plus, I'm sure Phoenix is capable of it.



reconstruct himself (he's done it twice before),
She's the Phoenix. You know, the bird that resurrects itself? To quote: "If the Phoenix Force is harmed or killed, it will form an "egg" of cosmic power, incubate in the White Hot Room, and hatch out completely healed." It might take slightly longer than Dr. NoPants, but end result is the same.


see the future,
Phoenix can do that.


divert 60% of the nukes the USSR could have fired all at once,
Cosmic level telekinesis and the ability to absorb/redirect energy up to (at least) the entire energy of a sun.


and observe "events so small and fast one could say they never happened."
Cosmic level telepathy, cosmic powered senses, and the ability to transmute matter on the subatomic scale. I'd say she can do this, too.


Yeah, Dr. Manhattan has at least twenty powers she doesn't, and he's kind of very, very, very, very indestructible.
Phoenix is very hard to kill as well. And she has tons of powers, including the power to actually travel through time and change history.

Source on powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(comics)#Powers_and_abilities).

darkblade
2009-06-13, 05:03 PM
Heck, Gor frickin Gilla stopped the Lincoln assasination. Doc Manhatten will be lucky if he doesn't go entirely insane, let alone keep up a fight with someone at or above his level of power.

Thats not how time travel in the Marvel universe works. Yes you can change the timeline but the second you do you split yourself off from the original timeline and exist in an alternate universe. The original course of events still happens just not for you.

Dr. Manhattan would still be able to percieve the timeline that he resides in.

Also again Phoenix is not at a God-like power level. Dark Phoenix is. Normal Phoenix is not that much more powerful than pre-Phoenix Jean Grey.

Closet_Skeleton
2009-06-13, 05:27 PM
Also again Phoenix is not at a God-like power level. Dark Phoenix is. Normal Phoenix is not that much more powerful than pre-Phoenix Jean Grey.

You sure Dark Pheonix's power increase isn't just from having less restraint?

Pheonix's power level/marturity/state is definately worth defining for this conversation to reach any conclusion.

"Slightly more powerful than Marvel Girl" isn't really a challange for Dr Manhattan, so assuming Dark Pheonix seemed safe.


Yeah, Dr. Manhattan has at least twenty powers she doesn't,

Powers she hasn't used because she didn't have any reason to. Not neccesarraly the same.


Read Watchmen Closet_Skeleton because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I've only read somewhere between the first 1/10 or 1/4 of Watchmen (it didn't have anything that caught my interest), but you had no way to assume that from that post.

What do you know about what Pheonix can do? I could be just as disrespectful and assume that you've only watched X-Men 3.

Rachel Summers as Pheonix had the power to kill every lifeform in the universe telepathically and take on the Beyonder. Can Dr Manhattan do that? (of course not, he isn't telepathic at all but he might be able to achieve similar results)

Dr Manhattan can reconstitute his body, because his body is pretty meaningless to him. To kill him you'd have to destroy his mind/soul/whatever or errase him from existance. I wouldn't put either of those past the Pheonix.

Ravens_cry
2009-06-13, 08:32 PM
Jean as Phoenix was destroyed by some ancient laser cannon on the moon if I remember correctly. She came back, but it took her awhile. Near the end of Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan's body (as Dr. Manhattan) was destroyed by a feild that basically nullified the weak force if I remember correctly and he reconstituted himself in a few minutes.
Advantage Dr. Manhatten.

chiasaur11
2009-06-13, 09:15 PM
Thats not how time travel in the Marvel universe works. Yes you can change the timeline but the second you do you split yourself off from the original timeline and exist in an alternate universe. The original course of events still happens just not for you.

Dr. Manhattan would still be able to percieve the timeline that he resides in.

Also again Phoenix is not at a God-like power level. Dark Phoenix is. Normal Phoenix is not that much more powerful than pre-Phoenix Jean Grey.

Actually, the timeline splitting only happens some of the time.

Screwing destiny and utterly preventing a nasty inevitable fate was a major plot bit of the Simonson FF run, stable time loops were a big part of the She-Hulk TVA arc, and Dan Slott had the Thing mess with the past of the timeline he was in AND stable time loop at once in an issue where Benjy went back to Greece to fight Hercules and show Alicia the Aphrodite of Melos.

In other words, the timeline of Earth 616?

Messed up. Free will very much exists, the timeline is in no way predictable, and every couple weeks some idiot accidental lets Hitler win WW deuce.

As I said, Manhattan will be confused beyond belief. And I haven't even mentioned Avengers Forever.

Anteros
2009-06-14, 02:22 AM
Dr. Manhatten suffers from "I'm omnipotent because my author says I am. It doesn't matter if the reader can clearly see flaws and weaknesses in me. My author says I'm perfect."

Before you try to scale him at all, you have to decide if you're using the version of him that the author tells you is real, or the version that we actually see.

Lord of Rapture
2009-06-14, 05:00 AM
Dr. Manhatten suffers from "I'm omnipotent because my author says I am. It doesn't matter if the reader can clearly see flaws and weaknesses in me. My author says I'm perfect."

Before you try to scale him at all, you have to decide if you're using the version of him that the author tells you is real, or the version that we actually see.

No it doesn't. The author in no way tries to present Dr. Manhattan as omnipotent. If he was, the conflict of the story would have never happened, as Dr. Manhattan could have poofed them all away. It is said that Dr. Manhattan would only be able to stop 60% of the nukes if they were all fired at once, so it shows that he would be unable to stop nuclear war if it happened.

Also, Dr. Manhattan clearly states that he was unable to predict the future after Ozymandias unleashes the fake alien on New York because of the tachyon interference, or something like that.

Arang
2009-06-14, 11:25 AM
I'm not sure these two characters are comparable in any way, or even characters that were meant to fight anything. Dr. Manhattan is nigh-omnipotent to show the inevitability of the nuclear war, and Phoenix is nigh-omnipotent because ... I have no idea why, but I'm pretty sure it's not because Marvel wrote themselves into an ever-escalating character arms race, so her power is moot. In either case, both of them could instantly destroy the other's physical form, reassemble if they lose and repeat, forever.

I suppose if victory had to go to any party, then it would eventually be Manhattan, because he never ages while Phoenix has to take an infinitely tiny fraction of a second to restore her physical form to younger age. Provided that they fight for an eternity, simple statistics dictate that eventually she would forget to do this for long enough that she'd die of some ironically mundane cause.

Anteros
2009-06-14, 12:44 PM
No it doesn't. The author in no way tries to present Dr. Manhattan as omnipotent. If he was, the conflict of the story would have never happened, as Dr. Manhattan could have poofed them all away. It is said that Dr. Manhattan would only be able to stop 60% of the nukes if they were all fired at once, so it shows that he would be unable to stop nuclear war if it happened.

Also, Dr. Manhattan clearly states that he was unable to predict the future after Ozymandias unleashes the fake alien on New York because of the tachyon interference, or something like that.

Obviously my statement was an exaggeration meant to point out the fact that we're told that Dr. Manhattan is far more capable than we actually see him to be. It's a flaw of the author rather than the character himself, but still a flaw.

My point was that, like many fictional characters, Dr. Manhattan is nowhere near as powerful or knowledgable as the author tries to tell us he is.

GryffonDurime
2009-06-14, 01:01 PM
The biggest problem here is that authors have pretty universally taken their own swings at explaining the Phoenix--it is Jean, it isn't Jean, it's kind-of Jean. I should also like to point out that, at one point, Jean's daughter, in possession of a less-complete control of the Phoenix Force (whatever it is) than Jean herself ever displayed, fought and triumphed over Galactus. In brute force. Galactus himself is one about five or so constants in the Marvel universe, including beings like Eternity.

Let us assume, then, that we are to take the most recent authorial say as to the nature of the Phoenix Force. It's where all mutants are evolving to, the source of life and the sum total of psionic power.

And Jean Grey is special, not just another weilder of this power but rather the closest thing it's ever had to a discreet avatar. She is the White Phoenix of the Crown, sort of a first among equals. The Phoenix Force is tremendously powerful.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Discern who my pick is as you will:smallwink:

Prock
2009-06-15, 12:51 PM
The winner is obvious, batman with preptime.

Xondoure
2009-06-16, 12:33 AM
Phoenix is the ultimate power. Nothing is impossible, and Dark Phoenix is just the full manifestation of being a god; absolute power corrupting absolutely and some such crap. I am going to have to go with Jean on this one. The problem is that while the Doc may be almost equal, Phoenix has proven that she can use her powers on a much more powerful scale then the doc has.

Edit:
The winner is obvious, batman with preptime.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... (laughs uncontrollably for six hours) I'm sure he could come up with something before his molocules ceased to exist. After all, they're just more powerful than gods! What's the worst that could happen?

Oslecamo
2009-06-16, 06:44 AM
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... (laughs uncontrollably for six hours) I'm sure he could come up with something before his molocules ceased to exist. After all, they're just more powerful than gods! What's the worst that could happen?

It's a well known fact that Batman's power shield is ALMOST 9000!!!!, and that whenever he fights a god-level oponent(like super man and darkseid, to name a few), said oponent will be unable to bring his full powers to bear against Batman.:smalltongue:

Anyway, my money's on Phoenix:

Dr.Manhatan-unable to destroy all the nukes from a single super potency.

Phoenix-Able to vaporize worlds

And the only diference from phoenix and dark phoenix is that the first lets their friends get some glory instead of curb stomping their oponents with a single arm all by herself.

Avilan the Grey
2009-06-16, 06:56 AM
Personally I am convinced that the only reason Dark Phoenix is stronger than Phoenix is the complete lack of restraints, inhibitions and morals.

My money is on Phoenix. But then as someone said above... Whoever wins, we lose.

Ichneumon
2009-06-16, 07:14 AM
I'd say it really depends on the Dr. Manhattan character. If he really WANTS to win, he wins, if he doesn't. He let's himself loose.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-22, 01:53 PM
I've only read somewhere between the first 1/10 or 1/4 of Watchmen (it didn't have anything that caught my interest), but you had no way to assume that from that post.

First off, you haven't ready all of and loved Watchmen? WHAT?!?!?!? WHAAAAAT?!?!?!?! It's Watchmen! Watchmen! You can't say it's bad just based off they few chapters. It gets like a billion times better after each chapter. And what do you mean nothing caught your eye? There's Rorschach. Rorschach!

Second, I have every right to assume anything from everything because I'm an American. I assume stupid, irrational thoughts from whatever I please.

Third, I forgot to mention Dr. Manhattan's two greatest powers that puts him ahead of Phoenix and every other comic book character.
Jon can give you cancer and he'll turn into a car. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w)

Trizap
2009-06-22, 02:12 PM
ok, can all the blind men please stop trying to describe color here? the only two people who would actually know who would win is Dr.Manhattan and Phoenix, they are simply too high on the power scale to actually measure since at a certain point, namely godhood, power becomes impossible to measure, at least by normal human standards.

so I don't the point of this discussion.

Eldan
2009-06-22, 02:23 PM
I'd say it really depends on the Dr. Manhattan character. If he really WANTS to win, he wins, if he doesn't. He let's himself loose.

Or rather, if he sees himself winning, he will, if he doesn't, he loses.

Haven
2009-06-22, 02:43 PM
I'd have to give it to Phoenix for two reasons:

1. Dr. Manhattan's power has its limits; he could only stop 60% of the nukes that the USSR could fire. While he is very powerful, he only appears godlike because of the milieu he inhabits. The Phoenix has limits as well, but they are vastly higher--she devours stars, a feat several orders of magnitude above stopping nukes.

So while she could outmatch him in a "straight" fight, there's also the fact that Dr. Manhattan never showed any signs of telepathic ability (well, except in the movie where he seemed to be able to mind-meld or something, but that was just a plot device to give Laurie her epiphany because...regular flashbacks are too mundane when you're on Mars, I guess). Given that Jon isn't very strong-willed (his mind is remarkable--without his particular worldview, I don't believe he would have managed to reconstitute himself as Dr. Manhattan--but willpower isn't his strong suit), Phoenix could probably seize control of his mind.

2. The Phoenix Force is this huge mystical spiritual cosmic space entity thing, whose existence appears to be integral to the universe. Dr. Manhattan, remarkable as he is, appears to be a quirk of physics. Jean Grey is an experienced superhero, and Jon Osterman is a fatalist.

Oh, and one other thing:

Jon's big blue trouser titan is an easy target.



I'd say it really depends on the Dr. Manhattan character. If he really WANTS to win, he wins, if he doesn't. He let's himself loose.

Given Phoenix's ridiculous power, I'm not sure this is true, but I think a major part of Dr. Manhattan's character is that he's not capable of "wanting" anything to that degree.


Or rather, if he sees himself winning, he will, if he doesn't, he loses.

Since Phoenix is capable of teleportation and time-travel (including dimensional, since she goes to the White-Hot Room), she could probably create tachyons (if she doesn't just generate them by her very nature) and thwart his precognition. And she could probably read his mind to know that.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-22, 07:47 PM
And she could probably read his mind to know that.

I'm sure after reading that naked blue guy's thoughts, she'd just let him kill her. Have you read half the things he says in Watchmen? The guy's suicidally depressing:

"We're all puppets Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

"A live body and a dead body each contain the same number of particles. Life and death are undefinable abstracts."

Yeah. Jon's an up beat motivational speaker type.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-22, 07:52 PM
I'm sure after reading that naked blue guy's thoughts, she'd just let him kill her. Have you read half the things he says in Watchmen? The guy's suicidally depressing:

"We're all puppets Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

"A live body and a dead body each contain the same number of particles. Life and death are undefinable abstracts."

Yeah. Jon's an up beat motivational speaker type.

Hows this in any way depressing? He's being truthful. Nothing wrong with that. Just because you yourself don't want to admit it dosn't make it depressing. Its just not altogather human

Guancyto
2009-06-22, 08:24 PM
I'm sure after reading that naked blue guy's thoughts, she'd just let him kill her. Have you read half the things he says in Watchmen? The guy's suicidally depressing:

"We're all puppets Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

"A live body and a dead body each contain the same number of particles. Life and death are undefinable abstracts."

Yeah. Jon's an up beat motivational speaker type.


She probably wouldn't let him beat her. Since this is comic books (and X-men in particular), she'll probably just spend a while angsting about whatever happened to be on her mind, and then blast him with the sheer power of sorrow or friendship or something. It would be anticlimatic and tragic and srs bznss.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-22, 10:04 PM
Hows this in any way depressing? He's being truthful. Nothing wrong with that. Just because you yourself don't want to admit it dosn't make it depressing. Its just not altogather human

The fact that you don't really have free will. The fact that you have no decision about how things will turn out. The fact that the future has already happened and you can't affect it at all.

Also, a few people have mentioned how Phoenix can duplicate the heat/ thermal energy of the sun. I don't see how that could affect Dr. Manhattan. He's walked across the sun. Further more, he's the indestructible man. You can't really kill him. I've never read the comics, but if Phoenix can be killed, it's just a matter of Dr. Manhattan wearing her down.

And as for people saying Jon has to obey the laws of physics, I view it as this: Jon is an ultra munchkin, and the laws of physics are the rules to D&D. He knows how to bypass every law and rule and he can over come every obstacle thrown at him.

Moving on, I've decided to add two more god-like entities into the battle, both of which are extremely gigantic:

Phoenix v. Dr. Manhattan v. Galaxtus v. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

For this, gotta go with Simon and the Gurren Brigade: just about everything in that show goes against the laws of physics and rationality, not to mention that thing's like the size of a friggin' Milky Way

KnightDisciple
2009-06-22, 11:14 PM
Phoenix can absorb "life-force". As in, insta-kill.

Dr. M. dies to that. Simon dies to that.

Phoenix has beaten Galactus when he was hungry. If the Big G were full, it might go down differently...but it might not. I'd say if nothing else, Phoenix could make him work very, very hard for his win.

Sholos
2009-06-23, 12:56 AM
Simon dies to that.

Didn't somebody try that? Anyways, Simon's got a lot of "lifeforce". He's pretty much made of it. That's kinda the point of the show. Well, not a "point", per se, but an element.

Oslecamo
2009-06-23, 06:11 AM
And as for people saying Jon has to obey the laws of physics, I view it as this: Jon is an ultra munchkin, and the laws of physics are the rules to D&D. He knows how to bypass every law and rule and he can over come every obstacle thrown at him.

No he can't. It's said plain clearly in the comic that Dr.Manhatan would be unable to stop a full scale russian atomic assault.

Please stop with the fanboysm. Altough Jon is quite powerfull, never in the comic it's said that he's omnipotent, and there are several situations wich he can't solve. He can't bring people back from the dead, for one. Phoenix can.

Also he doesn't have mindrape powers. Phoenix has. Both characters may be pretty much immortal, but Phoenix can make Jon dance to her music.

Galactus has been defeated by Phoenix before.

Gurren Laggan has been defeated by some random old man. Unarmed. With punches.

paddyfool
2009-06-23, 06:30 AM
As in all things in comics, it depends on the writer. Options are:

- We all lose in some depressing way.
- Phoenix wins due to being one or two notches up on the power scale
- Phoenix loses due to being one or two notches up on the power scale and Dr M/the writer doing an asspull.
- End result: Probably a fair assumption that neither can kill, incapacitate or trap the other permanently. So, whoever "wins", either they go their seperate ways, or they merge. Even odds that Earth is ashes, depending on the writer and the version of phoenix.

EDIT: Incidentally, for Marvel fans, Dr M is kind of multiple Omega-level and other high-level mutants rolled together. Molecular Man + Multiple Man + omniscience + near-indestructibility + auto-resurrection + being really good at building stuff + other stuff I've probably forgotten.

And I've decided to play with one scenario of how this conflict could play out:


Crossover between timelines with Dark Phoenix meeting Dr M post the events of Watchman.

Dark Phoenix goes to eat a sun with some strange construction project going on in its orbit. A barrier is placed in her way - not enough to stop her, but enough to be irritating. She discerns the source of the barrier as the construction project, zooms off to it and blasts the entire thing with oodles of energy. Nothing much happens. She takes a closer look, and discerns one guiding consciousness centred upon multiple blue naked men. She goes in for a psychic assault. Finding no initial barriers, she enters the mind of Dr M... and encounters omniscience. Complete knowledge of how everything will turn out, including this encounter and an endless future in store of being blasted to pieces, reforming, merging with other consciences and so forth. Dark Phoenix pulls back in confusion, uneasy at such knowledge, and zooms away. Dr M, utterly unsurprised and unconcerned at the whole experience carries on building Earth Mark 2.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-23, 09:18 AM
Uh...Dr. M isn't omniscient.

He's just nonlinear with regards to time. He experiences everything in his own timeline simultaneously, assuming tachyons don't mess things up.

I've never, in either movie or comic, heard him state that he's capable of actual omniscience. Of any level.

Sholos
2009-06-23, 11:27 AM
Gurren Laggan has been defeated by some random old man. Unarmed. With punches.

Um, what? I have no idea what you're talking about, and I've seen the whole series. Besides, this isn't Gurren Lagann we're talking about, it's Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Just a slight difference.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-23, 12:34 PM
Didn't somebody try that? Anyways, Simon's got a lot of "lifeforce". He's pretty much made of it. That's kinda the point of the show. Well, not a "point", per se, but an element.

The closest people have come is either beating him up, or trapping him in some weird mental illusion machine.

Not directly tapping into his specific life force, and snuffing it out.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-23, 01:25 PM
Phoenix can absorb "life-force". As in, insta-kill.

Dr. M. dies to that. Simon dies to that.

Phoenix has beaten Galactus when he was hungry. If the Big G were full, it might go down differently...but it might not. I'd say if nothing else, Phoenix could make him work very, very hard for his win.

Yeah, well, having every particle in your body destroyed also counts as insta-kill. Yet, Jon's survived that twice. I'm not convinced.

The fact remains, Jon can't be killed. If Phoenix was killed in any comic, gotta give the victory to Jon.


He can't bring people back from the dead, for one. Phoenix can.

I disagree. He can teleport people. Do you know how teleportation works? It's taking you being, breaking you down to your most basic elements, scrambling them (which would kill you) and moving them to the desired location, then putting you back together ALIVE.


Gurren Laggan has been defeated by some random old man. Unarmed. With punches.

No. Gurren Lagann battled by an old man centuries old with a physically enhanced body and fighting skills piloting a giant robot. Simon, a little kid, got the crap kicked out of him by said physically buff old man. Besides, he won that battle.

Also, I'm not talking about the ten story tall Gurren Lagann. I'm talking about the end-of-the-series galaxy-big utra-death-mecha Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the one that took down the anti-spirals that can create energy and manipulate probability.

The entire series is filled with characters that defy the laws of physics, science, rationality, probability, sanity and replaces them with the phrase "If it's badass, the characters can do!" And what's more badass then taking down Phoenix?

Oslecamo
2009-06-23, 01:38 PM
I disagree. He can teleport people. Do you know how teleportation works? It's taking you being, breaking you down to your most basic elements, scrambling them (which would kill you) and moving them to the desired location, then putting you back together ALIVE.


Bad news for you then. In the comic it's mentioned that some of the people Jon teleported during his career actually died, wich was one of the nails that made him leave Earth. And this is ignoring the fact that his teleport may be wormhole based, or plot-power based. Nowhere it says he breacks people down to their basic elements and rebuilds them again.

And Dr M still hasn't a counter to the Phoenix's mind control.

Phoenix may have been killed about a dozen times, but since she always comes back to life by herself, she's actually as unkillable as Jon, who also reconstructs himself after destroyed.



No. Gurren Lagann battled by an old man centuries old with a physically enhanced body and fighting skills piloting a giant robot. Simon, a little kid, got the crap kicked out of him by said physically buff old man. Besides, he won that battle.

He needed the strongest weapon in the universe to win. And his oponent to behave stupidly, bragging about victory instead of crushin Simon's skull right after taking him out of his mecha.



Also, I'm not talking about the ten story tall Gurren Lagann. I'm talking about the end-of-the-series galaxy-big utra-death-mecha Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the one that took down the anti-spirals that can create energy and manipulate probability.

The entire series is filled with characters that defy the laws of physics, science, rationality, probability, sanity and replaces them with the phrase "If it's badass, the characters can do!" And what's more badass then taking down Phoenix?

Because Phoenix is actually a small fry in the Marvel universe. Right now is more than a courtesy to join team evil than anything else(Wanna join us? then kill the phoenix, and we may consider it) There are hundreds of omnipotent beings and the universe itself was destroyed and recreated more times than anyone can count. Sure Gurren Lagann can fling galaxies on it's more powerfull form, but Marvel universe is a place where that wouldn't be enough to fill the backpage of your local newspaper. Just in the last issue I readed, Mr.Fantastic took down an alien invasion by, in less than 24 hours, building a cannon wich shoots universes at the target.

Also, I must ask you, since when did the Marvel universe stoped being an entire series is filled with characters that defy the laws of physics, science, rationality, probability, sanity and replaces them with the phrase "If it's badass, the characters can do!"?

Because last time I checked, there were flaming chicks eating suns alongside guys with undestructible claws wich eat robots for lunch, guys shooting laser beams out of their eyes, da hulk (now available in 3 diferent colors!) all god phanteons put togheter, sorcerers, aliens, etc, etc

Berserk Monk
2009-06-23, 01:58 PM
He needed the strongest weapon in the universe to win. And his oponent to behave stupidly, bragging about victory instead of crushin Simon's skull right after taking him out of his mecha.

Who says Phoenix wouldn't get over confident and leave herself open?


Because Phoenix is actually a small fry in the Marvel universe. Right now is more than a courtesy to join team evil than anything else(Wanna join us? then kill the phoenix, and we may consider it) There are hundreds of omnipotent beings and the universe itself was destroyed and recreated more times than anyone can count. Sure Gurren Lagann can fling galaxies on it's more powerfull form, but Marvel universe is a place where that wouldn't be enough to fill the backpage of your local newspaper. Just in the last issue I readed, Mr.Fantastic took down an alien invasion by, in less than 24 hours, building a cannon wich shoots universes at the target.

Great. The question wasn't "Could Toppa Teggen Gurren Lagann take down every character in the Marvel universe?" It was "Could Toppa Teggen Gurren Lagann take down Phoenix?"


Also, I must ask you, since when did the Marvel universe stoped being an entire series is filled with characters that defy the laws of physics, science, rationality, probability, sanity and replaces them with the phrase "If it's badass, the characters can do!"?

Because last time I checked, there were flaming chicks eating suns alongside guys with undestructible claws wich eat robots for lunch, guys shooting laser beams out of their eyes, da hulk (now available in 3 diferent colors!) all god phanteons put togheter, sorcerers, aliens, etc, etc

Yeah, well, they actually try to explain how this stuff is possible creating insane laws they either have to obey in the comics or create an even more insane law to counter. Gurren Lagann just goes by the law "If we think we're badass enough, we can kick reality in the nuts and blast drill a whole through anything!" Also, I doubt anything comes close to the chaos on that anime: a cross between a pig and mole type creature generating enough energy to transform a mecha the size of the moon.

Sholos
2009-06-24, 12:59 AM
Yeah, Marvel uses the "if it's badass, the characters can do it" rule. Gurrenn Lagann lives by it. As in, that's pretty much the actual explanation for half the stuff that happens.

Zaphrasz
2009-06-24, 10:39 AM
I don't think Phoenix would be able to use any sort of mind control on Dr. Manhattan. We know from Deadpool that psychics in the Marvel universe interfere with the physical brain, which is why his, being in a constant state of flux, is immune. I'm pretty sure the Doc doesn't need a real physical form, and he just chose the big blue guy to represent himself.

Not commenting on this third contender, because I hate anime, and think you should never be able to get lost in someone's name.

Thufir
2009-06-24, 11:39 AM
Did I read right further up that Phoenix can time travel? Because if that works, she wins by travelling back in time and killing Jon Osterman when he was still human.
If we disallow time travel and assume she can't mind control him (Since that would also be an immediate win of course), then I think it's a draw, since neither can permanently destroy the other. Whether anything else in the general vicinity survives is another matter.

Duck_Dodgers
2009-06-24, 01:22 PM
Phoenix would win, and here is why:

I serously doubt Moore would ever condon a comic on this topic, so after he dies the Marvel would have to be the producers which would bias them for Pheonix. Plus although my exposure to Pheonix is limited to X-men 3 and Rachel Summers in Excaleber, the writers in both cases seemed to really like the concept of the Phoenix and wouldn't want her destroyed, while many people (not me though) see Dr. Manhatten as kind of a #$&%!.

Metagamers of the world untie:smallbiggrin:

Xondoure
2009-06-25, 01:43 PM
Your experience of Phoenix is sad my friend, sad. Go and find the original Phoenix arc and let your brains melt at it's brilliance. Seriously, some of my all time favorite X-men writing happened during that arc.