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Amiria
2009-06-15, 11:56 AM
1) Do the spell-like (or psi-like) abilities of Aboleths allready fullfill the spellcasting or (manifesting) prerequisites of the Aboleth Savant PrC (Lords of Madness p. 21/22 and sidebar on p. 24) ?

2) Anyway, imho the 10th-Level Aboleth Wizard in the MM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm) is laughable as a CR 17 encounter. And it would be the same with an Aboleth Savant. Does anyone have some better advice/houserule to come up with better matching CRs for i.e. Aboleth Psion/Savants ?

3) I think about giving "Night Below: An Underdark Campaign" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Below:_An_Underdark_Campaign) another try converted to 3.5 D&D. I once GMed a group through the 1st book and about a 1/3 into the 2nd book. Does anyone know if there are some conversion of that campaign for 3.x D&D already ? Especially for the 3rd book of the campaign, "The Sunless Sea."

AmberVael
2009-06-15, 12:13 PM
1) Do the spell-like (or psi-like) abilities of Aboleths allready fullfill the spellcasting or (manifesting) prerequisites of the Aboleth Savant PrC (Lords of Madness p. 21/22 and sidebar on p. 24) ?
No. While spell-like abilities are similar to spells in many ways, they are not actually spells- they are spell-like abilities. The prerequisites specifically ask for "spells."


2) Anyway, imho the 10th-Level Aboleth Wizard in the MM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm) is laughable as a CR 17 encounter. And it would be the same with an Aboleth Savant. Does anyone have some better advice/houserule to come up with better matching CRs for i.e. Aboleth Psion/Savants ?

I'd advise trying to match it up with a Dragon. Dragons are a bit powerful for their CR, true, and are combat machines, but they also have that extra spellcasting power, so... it might make a better comparison.

Kol Korran
2009-06-15, 01:39 PM
2 years ago, a DM friend of mine tried to converse the module into 3.5. he looked everywhere for an exisiting conversion, but couldn't find any. he tried to do most of this on himself, but couldn't finish due to other real life issues. he told it it was quite a bugger, mainly due to the different rate of gaining levels, and the WBL issues.

so... good luck to you. i personalli disliked the whole Qua Toa city bit (forgot the name), which in my opnion was realy poorly done. there was no real resistence from the enemies.

oh, and the shadow dragon is an almost assured TPK, if i remember correctly.

Amiria
2009-06-15, 02:22 PM
Thanks.

@Vael. I looked at Dragons for a comparison, but they are still a quite bit more powerful then Aboleths. Maybe it make it so that the psion/savant levels count as non-associated. I don't have my MM here, but that would mean i.e. that an Aboleth Psion5/Savant3 would be CR 12, and after the 8th class level it would be +1 CR per class level, right ?. Does that seem balanced ? Or to powerful, compared with i.e. Dragons or Fiends of the same CRs ?

@ Kol Korran

Last time we played till the Grell Caves, where we had a near TPK. Yeah, the Shadow Dragon will be nasty, but I think that I'll allow some successful reconnaissance, put some Death Ward scrolls in the loot they found earlier, maybe dumb the dragon down a bit. It should still be a hell of a fight but not the the very certain death trap as it is written in the book.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-15, 02:43 PM
Does anyone have some better advice/houserule to come up with better matching CRs for i.e. Aboleth Psion/Savants ?
Pare down or eliminate their spell-like/psi-like abilities, and then change them to "Casts spells as an nth-level wizard" or "Manifests powers as an nth-level psion"? You know, like they did for illithids.

Alternately, you could just give them a pool of power points, their psi-like abilities as powers known, and a manifesting level. That would still combine with levels in any manifesting class, although not as well as faux levels in the class taken.

Really, that's how all psionic monsters should work, in my opinion. But instead, they make psi-like abilities work just like spell-like abilities. Instead of making them work like, y'know, psionics.

potatocubed
2009-06-15, 04:55 PM
I GMed the first two books of the Night Below as my first foray into 3.0. My advice is this: halve all the treasure that gets given out. I had 8 PCs and on the standard treasure they were loaded. As in, they had enough money to hire an army to knock over the kuo-toa city.

Oh, and tone down the trolls at the start of the second book. At the level the characters are at there, they can't take on that many trolls.

Amiria
2009-06-15, 04:56 PM
Pare down or eliminate their spell-like/psi-like abilities, and then change them to "Casts spells as an nth-level wizard" or "Manifests powers as an nth-level psion"? You know, like they did for illithids.

Alternately, you could just give them a pool of power points, their psi-like abilities as powers known, and a manifesting level. That would still combine with levels in any manifesting class, although not as well as faux levels in the class taken.

Really, that's how all psionic monsters should work, in my opinion. But instead, they make psi-like abilities work just like spell-like abilities. Instead of making them work like, y'know, psionics.

Interesting, psionic Mind Flayers ... they have 8 HD and manifest like 9th level psions ... as a CR 8 creature.

Hmm, should psionic Aboleths that are build like those Mind Flayers manifest like 8th level psions ? Their highest powers are all 4th level powers so that would fit ...

wadledo
2009-06-15, 05:05 PM
I'd bump it up to maybe 10th, but increase their CR by 2.

Most aberrations that are supposed to fit the "mastermind" stereotype are horribly weak when you think about it.

Keld Denar
2009-06-15, 06:16 PM
I've DMed through the whole first book. I remember finding a conversion somewhere online just by googling it, but I didn't follow it. Really, if you read through the book, its not hard to guess. Like, I made Ranchefus a 7th level cleric, and most of his cronies were like, Fighter2s or Rogue3s. It took very little prep each weak to run it.

We didn't make it past the first book though. The semester ended and a bunch of us graduated...I miss college.

Amiria
2009-06-16, 02:21 AM
I GMed the first two books of the Night Below as my first foray into 3.0. My advice is this: halve all the treasure that gets given out. I had 8 PCs and on the standard treasure they were loaded. As in, they had enough money to hire an army to knock over the kuo-toa city.

Oh, and tone down the trolls at the start of the second book. At the level the characters are at there, they can't take on that many trolls.

Been there. We had 2 deaths at the trolls. Would have been only one, but suddenly the dice decided to roll all 17+ for a couple of troll attacks.

I don't think that reducing the treasure will be neccessary. The group wouldn't hire a mass of mercenaries to invade the Underdark, methinks. The extra treasure could be turned in useful magic items soon enough ... they should have the neccessary contacts in a metropolis (or even something like Sigil) by then. By the mid of Book II they should have access to Teleport, so returning to the surface quickly shouldn't pose much of a problem ... unless I implement the Forgotten Realms underdark teleport problems. Better equipment (and tweaking monsters/encounters) might reduce the fatality of the module.

Amiria
2009-06-16, 02:31 AM
I've DMed through the whole first book. I remember finding a conversion somewhere online just by googling it, but I didn't follow it. Really, if you read through the book, its not hard to guess. Like, I made Ranchefus a 7th level cleric, and most of his cronies were like, Fighter2s or Rogue3s. It took very little prep each weak to run it.

We didn't make it past the first book though. The semester ended and a bunch of us graduated...I miss college.

Yeah, the first book was easy to convert. I made Ranchefus a 8th level cleric, the fight with him in the bandit's castle was quite hard, no PC died but some where on the brink of death.

The problem seems to be that few people ever get the campaign so far as to the 3rd book. That's a monster to convert.

Keld Denar
2009-06-16, 01:05 PM
One thing I did do, as I allowed any played with a magic crafting feat "disenchant" any items they recovered for half xp and gold required to craft it and use that to craft more approprate gear. This allows you to do something about the ~10ish +1 Small Shields you find throughout the first book without flooding the VERY small Harranshire economy who couldn't even buy 1 +1 shield if they all pooled their gold together. This also makes up for the inherant lack of things like +stat and +resistance items which are so basic to PCs and didn't really exist in 2nd ed as they do in 3.X.

Hiring mercs wouldn't have really been a problem for my group. I made it known that the nearest "major" city is like, 3 weeks travel away, and Harrenshire in no way supports that kind of anyone capable of being more than fodder for Illithids or Aboliths. Even the major NPCs like Kuiper or Oleanne or Tauster, or the Swanmay chick (who is COMPLETELY worthless, other than as a focal story point) aren't gonna be able to contribute significantly, plus are even stated in the book to be against following the PCs on any of the major adventures. If you keep feeding little tidbits of whats-her-name, Tauster's lost apprentice, you can really impose a sense of timing that keeps the PCs from dallying too much since they will feel that they are always just a step behind her.

And I would impose the Underdark teleportation rules. There are the "waypoints" built into the module. Use them. They also make great plot points if the PCs are careful about covering their tracks, you can lay an ambush at one. Nothing says "oh ****" like porting into a small room filled with angry Kuo-Toa.

Amiria
2009-06-19, 02:30 PM
I'll use the Underdark teleportation rules, although by the 3rd book the party's mage will be good enough to make the checks. But by then they'll probably need any advantage they can get, like some quick shopping for magic items in a Metropolis on the surface, some 200 miles away.

I also converted lots of the treasure beforehand, changed the gear of the bandits, orcs and other monsters, or put new 3.x items like Cloaks of Resistance in treasure hordes.

Character creation is more or less finished, 6 characters:

Designated Party Leader
Male human Druid

The shabby rest :smalltongue:
Male 'pomp'1-elf Wizard (Diviner) ... going into Olin Gesir PrC
Female dwarf Rogue ... multiclass into Barbarian, Fighter and maybe also ranger, but taking rogue at every odd level
Female human Cloistered Cleric (of Alintan = Pelor) ... going into Radiant Servant PrC
Male human Warblade ... multiclass for 2 Fighter levels after the 3rd Warblade level, for feats and to get a better stance later
Male whispergnome Bard

Starting with fewer full BAB/d10+ classes as I hoped, but the dwarf will be become a quite nasty fighter, a druid is really a beast in its own right, and even a Cloistered Cleric can be a melee monster with the right buffs.

Using fractional BAB and saves (but applying the +2 starting bonus only once to a save), no multiclass penalties, a character generation method that's roughly equivalent to a 45-point buy, and going well beyond wealth-per-level guidelines. But it will still be far from a cakewalk, I reckon. The opposition is still frighening and we don't play uberoptimized characters.

1 = just a fance name for grey elf. :smallwink:

Paul H
2009-06-19, 03:15 PM
Hi

Running couple 3.5 conversions at the moment. (Well, one on-line campaign I'm co-GM'ing).

In my (non co-GM) game, still in book one - off to Mire to meet the Dragon on Tues, then probably take on Broken Spire Keep after that.

We've got:

Dwarf Cleric 3 Thoth (Spell, Magic) [NPC]
Half Drow Rogue 1/Monk 2
Half Drow Duskblade 3
Dwarf Ftr 3
Human Sorceror 3
Sun Elf Beguiler 2 [NPC]

Furthest I've ever got was last series of battles at end book three. (Then everyone moved away..) :smallfrown:

Cheers
Paul H

bosssmiley
2009-06-19, 03:37 PM
Anyway, IMHO the 10th-Level Aboleth Wizard in the MM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm) is laughable as a CR 17 encounter. And it would be the same with an Aboleth Savant. Does anyone have some better advice/houserule to come up with better matching CRs for i.e. Aboleth Psion/Savants ?

Suggested fix for wonky monster CRs:

Class levels don't stack in any meaningful way with an Aboleth's existing racial abilities. This makes class levels non-associated (only +1/2 CR per level) up until the point they exceed the Aboleth's base CR.

When the Aboleth is advanced by 8 wizard levels the class levels - being the most significant power source the creature has* - become the base for CR calculation. The Aboleth's racial levels and SLAs - which in no way stack with the class levels - then become the icing on the full-caster cake and are deemed non-associated for CR calculation purposes.

That makes a 10th level Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm) (10 wizard levels + 7-8 non-associated Aboleth racial HD) a formidable CR 13-14 creature, rather than a bad joke at CR 17.

Aboleth savant class levels? Stack with wizard as associated class levels. (IIRC the savant class primarily advances class level casting, rather than racial abilities. *check book* Ah, semi-right. Savant PrC enhances casting ~and~ gives glyph mastery, enhanced enslave and ossification. That's a definite +1 CR/level whichever way you cut it...)

Advancing a psionic Aboleth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/abolethPsionic.htm) with additional manifester levels though, that's a headache-and-a-half. I'd stick to the same schema: class levels only stack with innate abilities if the creature naturally casts/manifests as a specific PC class. Otherwise, abilities are non-associated.**

* Yes they are. A level 8 wizard is a CR 8 opponent exclusive of any racial abilities.
** This method also fixes the wonky CRs for Angels and Eladrin.

Hope that helps some.