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Lappy9000
2009-06-16, 03:28 PM
Question: Does anyone if someone in the past has done a complete re-schooling of D&D Magic from 3.5 into 6 schools instead of 8 schools?

Specifically, do you know where I can find the current spells rewritten into Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, and Transmutation?

Justin B.
2009-06-16, 03:32 PM
I can see how you might consider Necromancy to be redundant, but Illusion?

Well, there is no such thing that I know of, however, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to do yourself. Though where all those Illusion spells are going to go... enchantment maybe?

Lappy9000
2009-06-16, 03:37 PM
I figured it wouldn't be too hard, just was hoping I could save meself some work.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-16, 03:38 PM
I can see how you might consider Necromancy to be redundant, but Illusion?

Well, there is no such thing that I know of, however, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to do yourself. Though where all those Illusion spells are going to go... enchantment maybe?

Technically Illusion could fit into Conjuration (conjuring up images) or Enchantment (fooling the senses with spells). Protective Illusions (Invisibility and so forth) might fit into Abjuration, although the other two options work there as well.

Necromancy can be split apart fairly easily, as the school is rather haphazardly assembled at best, but I don't have the time to look through every random effect and categorize it. :smallbiggrin:

sentaku
2009-06-16, 03:41 PM
I can see how you might consider Necromancy to be redundant, but Illusion?

Well, there is no such thing that I know of, however, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to do yourself. Though where all those Illusion spells are going to go... enchantment maybe?

Conjuration might also be a good place to put some, as well as using duel schools.

Optimystik
2009-06-16, 03:47 PM
Necromancy could fit into Conjuration (summoning/creating undead, trapping souls), Evocation (negative energy manipulation - simply cast a ray "backwards" to pull energy from a subject instead of projecting it), and Transmutation (stopping hearts, cold touches, blinding and all that other fun stuff.) The "fear" spells could go to Enchantment or Illusion. The anti-death spells like Death Ward can go to Abjuration.

This is actually a nice idea, I can see both Necromancy and Illusion being redundant. Abolishing them not only cleans up the magic system, it buffs the schools that are left behind (not that Transmutation or Conjuration need it, but Enchantment and Evocation are in sore need of buffs.) For that matter, the distinction between Conjuration and Evocation is also kind of blurry.

On the other hand, reducing redundancy makes some classes (like specialist wizards) much weaker. Giving up Enchantment is a no-brainer for a lot of wizards, but dumping Illusion too is liable to get even the most skilled wizards killed early in their careers.

Lappy9000
2009-06-16, 03:55 PM
Well, I can't take credit for the idea to do this; Fax Celestis gave me permission to fill up some gaps in d20r for my campaign setting. Now, I'm not looking for any discussion about the "Six School" idea myself; I'm just trying to see if it's been done before.

As the general consensus is "No" I totally don't mind doing it myself (although I am gonna give it some more time).

J.Gellert
2009-06-16, 03:58 PM
The simplest way to deal with Illusion would be to merge it with Enchantment and use a different name, like Manipulation.

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 03:59 PM
If I could redo the magic system, I would combine evocation and abjuration, drag all the orb spells, mage armor, etc from conjuration into evobjuration and move enchantment and illusion into the same school.

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 04:12 PM
Seconded. If the test of spite hadn't already started, this is precisely how I'd do it. It might still be.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-16, 05:55 PM
If I could redo the magic system, I would combine evocation and abjuration, drag all the orb spells, mage armor, etc from conjuration into evobjuration and move enchantment and illusion into the same school.

Hm. If I could redo the magic system, I would scrap the eight schools, create four or five disciplines (fire/water/air/earth would be a feasible, if cliched, layout) and restrict each wizard to one of them only, ensuring that each is playable and has both offensive, defensive, and utility stuff in there. It cuts down mightily on uber-comboes and on lengthy spell lists, and it's fresh.

Fax, you hirin'? :)

Oblivious
2009-06-16, 06:07 PM
People seem to agree that illusion could be straightforwardly merged with enchantment and evocation could be merged with abjuration. So... give necromancy the same special status as divination with respect to school specialization and call it done?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 06:54 PM
People seem to agree that illusion could be straightforwardly merged with enchantment and evocation could be merged with abjuration. So... give necromancy the same special status as divination with respect to school specialization and call it done?I love the school, but Necromancy shouldn't be it's own school. Everything it does could be part of another school. The only reason it isn't is because the designers wanted something Evil that wizards could ban. Scrap it, and merge it with the others. I wouldn't combine Abjuration(protections) with Evocation(blasting) if I did that, though.

If I were redoing it from the ground up? Create(Conjuration mostly), Transform(Transmutation mostly), Mind(Illusion, Enchantment, Divination), Power(Necro, Abj, Evoc, some conj spells). Spec allows 3 of the schools, drops one. Focused spec loses 2. Also, it would be case-by-case on most spells.

Justin B.
2009-06-16, 06:58 PM
Giving Necromancy the Divination treatment is a bad idea.

Some of the best debuffs are in Necromancy, as are the highly efficient ways of causing level drain.

Level drain is just like attacking a much much smaller hitpoint pool.

Gralamin
2009-06-16, 07:42 PM
Question: Does anyone if someone in the past has done a complete re-schooling of D&D Magic from 3.5 into 6 schools instead of 8 schools?

Specifically, do you know where I can find the current spells rewritten into Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, and Transmutation?

Just because I'm bored, I'm going to do some of the work for you.

Obviously the following Schools are gone: Necromancy, Illusion.

So we need a definition for each school:
Abjuration - Any spell that creates a purely defensive Effect, or defeats other magic.
Conjuration - Any Spell that creates, summons, or moves matter.
Divination - Any Spell that grants Information.
Enchantment - Any spell that works based on fooling the mind (And thus naturally includes illusions).
Evocation - Any spell that creates, summons, or moves Energy. For our purposes Energy is any of the following: Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Negative Energy, Positive Energy, Sonic. Force is sometimes used here as well.
Transmutation - Any spell that changes matter in some way that is physically apparent, or grants a creature a movement form such as flying.

Now there is some overlap here (Stoneskin, for example), so I recommend a list of priorities like the following:
Transmutation > Abjuration > Evocation > Conjuration > Enchantment > Divination > Universal.
So Stoneskin is Transmutation, because it fits into Transmutation and Abjuration, but Transmutation has higher priority then Abjuration.

The following is first to third level Sorc/Wizard core spells arranged based on the above.

0-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells (Cantrips)

Abjur
....Resistance

Conj
...Arcane Mark

Div
...Detect Poison
...Detect Magic
...Read Magic

Ench
...Daze
...Ghost Sound

Evoc
...Dancing Lights
...Disrupt Undead
...Flare
...Light
...Ray of Frost

Trans
...Mending
...Open/Close
...Touch of Fatigue

Univ
...Mage Hand
...Message
...Prestidigitation


1st-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

Abjur
...Alarm
...Endure Elements
...Hold Portal
...Mage Armor
...Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
...Shield

Conj
...Floating Disk
...Grease
...Mount
...Obscuring Mist
...Summon Monster I
...Unseen Servant

Div
...Comprehend Languages
...Detect Secret Doors
...Detect Undead
...Identify
...True Strike

Ench
...Cause Fear
...Charm Person
...Color Spray
...Hypnotism
...Magic Aura
...Silent Image
...Sleep
...Ventriloquism

Evoc
...Burning Hands
...Chill Touch
...Magic Missile
...Ray of Enfeeblement
...Shocking Grasp

Trans
...Animate Rope
...Disguise Self
...Enlarge Person
...Erase
...Expeditious Retreat
...Feather Fall
...Jump
...Magic Weapon
...Reduce Person


2nd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

Abjur
...Arcane Lock
...Misdirection
...Obscure Object
...Phantom Trap
...Protection from Arrows
...Resist Energy

Conj
...Fog Cloud
...Glitterdust
...Mirror Image
...Spectral Hand
...Summon Monster II
...Summon Swarm
...Web

Div
...Detect Thoughts
...Locate Object
...See Invisibility

Ench
...Command Undead
...Daze Monster
...Hideous Laughter
...Hypnotic Pattern
...Invisibility
...Minor Image
...Scare
...Touch of Idiocy

Evoc
...Acid Arrow
...Continual Flame
...Darkness
...Flaming Sphere
...Ghoul Touch
...Gust of Wind
...Pyrotechnics
...Scorching Ray
...Shatter

Trans
...Alter Self
...Bearís Endurance
...Blindness/Deafness
...Blur
...Bull's Strength
...Catís Grace
...Darkvision
...Eagleís Splendor
...False Life
...Fox's Cunning
...Knock
...Levitate
...Owlís Wisdom
...Spider Climb

Universal
...Magic Mouth
...Rope Trick
...Whispering Wind


3rd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

Abjur
...Dispel Magic
...Explosive Runes
...Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
...Nondetection
...Protection from Energy
...Sepia Snake Sigil

Conj
...Blink
...Phantom Steed
...Sleet Storm
...Stinking Cloud
...Summon Monster III
...Tiny Hut

Div
...Arcane Sight
...Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
...Tongues

Ench
...Deep Slumber
...Heroism
...Hold Person
...Rage
...Suggestion
...Illusory Script
...Invisibility Sphere
...Major Image
...Halt Undead

Evoc
...Daylight
...Fireball
...Flame Arrow
...Lightning Bolt
...Ray of Exhaustion
...Wind Wall
...Vampiric Touch

Trans
...Displacement
...Fly
...Gaseous Form
...Gentle Repose
...Keen Edge
...Magic Weapon, Greater
...Secret Page
...Shrink Item
...Water Breathing

Universal
...Haste
...Slow

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 07:58 PM
People seem to agree that illusion could be straightforwardly merged with enchantment and evocation could be merged with abjuration. So... give necromancy the same special status as divination with respect to school specialization and call it done?

I would still let people ban necromancy. It is a powerful school. It has many good spells, but the problem is that many people dont use it for thematic reasons.

Lappy9000
2009-06-16, 08:19 PM
Sheer, undiluted awesome.Dude, don't freak out, but I think I love you.

ericgrau
2009-06-16, 08:25 PM
I think removing illusion is a bit of a stretch. Technically anything could be forced to fit into conjuration. I'd think removing abjuration would make more sense, since most spells already overlap with existing definitions of other schools.

Eldariel
2009-06-16, 08:41 PM
Spoilered for slight off-topicness (as I don't have a link to a ready 6-school system handy, but everyone else is doing this too):
Abjuration and Evocation really mix pretty well, since Abjuration is already mostly Force-effects and dabbling with magic; magic is energy so that carries over just fine and Evocation already does force effects. The two combine fine into the "energy"-school, and as they're both somewhat subpar out-of-box, the combination hits two problems with one rock.

Necromancy obviously needs to go - the school really doesn't fit into any of the categories the other schools use. Abjuration is much the same. Conj/Divi/Enc/Evo/Ill/Trans works pretty well as Creating+Moving Matter/Seeing faraway places/Manipulating mind/Manipulating energy/Manipulating Shadowstuff (some of the present functionalities could be moved to Enchantment)/Manipulating Matter.

Lappy9000
2009-06-16, 08:49 PM
Now, I'm not looking for any discussion about the "Six School" idea myself; I'm just trying to see if it's been done before.Okay, a simple "Yes I've seen it at blipetyblahblahbleeptydoo.com" or "No, I haven't seen that anywhere" will suffice.

There's already been more than enough discussion before this thread was started. I only want to know if someone has done this before.


I think removing illusion is a bit of a stretch. Technically anything could be forced to fit into conjuration. I'd think removing abjuration would make more sense, since most spells already overlap with existing definitions of other schools.Technically, any of these spells could fit in almost any other category, hence why I didn't want to bother with the discussion. For example:

Shield: Defense formed through Abjuration, Conjured from another plane, created through Evocation, or Transmuted from the air.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-16, 09:23 PM
I haven't seen that anywhere, and I'd be surprised if it had been done previously, as it's awfully specific.

Gralamin
2009-06-16, 10:05 PM
Okay, a simple "Yes I've seen it at blipetyblahblahbleeptydoo.com" or "No, I haven't seen that anywhere" will suffice.

There's already been more than enough discussion before this thread was started. I only want to know if someone has done this before.

Technically, any of these spells could fit in almost any other category, hence why I didn't want to bother with the discussion. For example:

Shield: Defense formed through Abjuration, Conjured from another plane, created through Evocation, or Transmuted from the air.

Pretty much the reason I had to create the priority list and such. I ultimately sent Shield to Abjuration since it fit best thematically.

Glad you like the start.