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Owrtho
2009-06-17, 05:44 PM
Well, this is a work in progress, but thought I'd post the idea so I could get feedback on it.

Task Mage

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/lilgrnmeanie/mc-mag-jaya-ballard.jpg
Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire.
óJaya Ballard, task mage

Task mages are spellcasters of the mind that fire can be used to solve any problem, and if the problem isn't solved through its use, then clearly you didn't use enough. Pyromaniacs one and all, they do, oddly enough, seem to be able to solve almost any problem through gratuitous use of flames.

Requirements:
‣Feats: Blistering Spell*, Energy Substitution (Fire).
‣Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks.
‣Spells: Must know and be able to cast 3 spells with the fire descriptor, at least one of which must be 3rd level or higher.
‣Special: Must like fire.

*This feat is from Player's Handbook II

HD: d4
Skillpoints: 2 + int modifier.
Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Dedication to Flames(+1)|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Applied Flames, Firelord (5)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Fight Fire with Fire, Enhanced Fire Power (2)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Dedication to Flames (+2), Applied Flames, Firelord (10)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Burning Flames|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Applied Flames, Firelord (15), Enhanced Fire Power (4)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Coolness Under Fire|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Dedication to Flames (+3), Applied Flames, Firelord (20)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Enhanced Fire Power (6), Cant Touch This|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Applied Flames, Firelord (25), Fire Mastery, |+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]

Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage cannot use damage dealing spells unless they have the fire descriptor. In addition at 1st level, when a task mage would deal fire damage through any means, they deal an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice used. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.

Applied Flames (Su): At every even level a Task Mage may learn a spell or modify one they already know to have the fire descriptor. Doing so changes all damage from the spell to fire damage. This may only be used on spells that normaly deal damage. In addition the task mage may learn an additional spell with the fire descriptor for any class as long as its level is at least 1 lower than their highest spell level.

Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, any fire damage dealt by the task mage's ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.

Fight Fire with Fire (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a task mage's fire is so powerful it can be used to put out lesser fires. If fire made by a task mage would come into contact with fire from another source, have the fires make opposed damage rolls. If the task mage's fire would deal more damage, the other fire is immediately put out. In addition if creatures with the fire immunity are treated taking quarter fire damage (rounded down) instead of having fire immunity.

Note that if the task mage creates a lasting flame (such as through the use of wall of fire), any flames (includes abilities like a breath weapon that deals fire damage) or spells with the fire descriptor that would pass through it are subjected to this.

Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, the damage cap for your spells with the fire descriptor increase by 2 dice for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to your caster level, such as fireball or for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to half your level, such as magic missile. This ability has no effect on spells that don't specifically deal a number of dice of damage equal to your level or half your level, even if the spell's effect is largely dictated by your level. At 6th level and again at 9th level, the damage caps are increased by 2, to a maximum of a +6 increased damage cap.

Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6, cone of cold (fire substitute) would have up to 21d6 max damage, etc.

Fight Everything with Fire (Ex): At 4th level, a task mage becomes more effective at dealing fire damage anything. If a creature's fire resistance is lower than the task mage's fire resistance granted by the Firelord ability, the creature takes extra fire damage equal to the difference (up to a maximum of the task mage's class level) from any source the task mage uses to deal fire damage to it. This does not effect creatures that have fire immunity.

Burning Flames (Ex): At 5th level, spells of the fire descriptor cast by a task mage that deal +1 damage per caster level instead deal an additional 1d4 points of damage per caster level (the maximum amount stays what it was but is changed to d4s). These dice are subject to the Enhanced Fire Power, but not the Dedication to Flames class abilities.

Example: Wall of Fire would deal 2d6 points of fire damage +1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20d4) to creatures passing through it. this would result in a max damage of 2d6 + 26d4 + 78 points of fire damage to creatures passing through the wall of fire after accounting for Dedication to Flames and Enhanced Fire Power.

Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.

Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage's fire spells leave residual flames around him. When the task mage casts a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage becomes surrounded by flames. These flames deal 1d4 damage per level of the spell cast to all creatures within 5 feet of the task mage and 1d6 damage per level of the spell cast to all creatures that striking the task mage with its body or a handheld weapon (Creatures wielding weapons with exceptional reach are not subject to this damage if they attack you). In addition, as long as these flames persist, the task mage only takes half cold damage. These flames last for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell cast. Multiple instances of this do not stack, only the highest one applies.

Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any fire damage he deals. Creatures with fire vulnerability take double damage instead of an additional half damage. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants. Also, when the task mage gains a level, regardless of what class they take, they gain Applied Flames.

Well, likely needs some work, but let me know what you think.

Owrtho

Jane_Smith
2009-06-17, 06:07 PM
Some of my ideas;

Prerequisites;
Feats: Endurance, Energy Substitution (Fire).
Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Spells: Must know and be able to cast a 3rd level or higher spell with the fire descriptor.

Hit Dice: d6
Saves: Good Will, Bad Fort, Bad Ref.
Skills: 2 + Int Bonus, basic sorcerer skills for class skills, and replace Bluff with Intimidate.
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4, as rogue.

Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.

Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, the task mage's spells with the fire descriptor ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.

Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, the damage cap for your spells with the fire descriptor increase by 2 dice for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to your caster level, such as fireball or for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to half your level, such as searing light. This ability has no effect on spells that don't specifically deal a number of dice of damage equal to your level or half your level, even if the spell's effect is largely dictated by your level. At 6th level and again at 9th level, the damage caps are increased by 2, to a maximum of a +6 increased damage cap.

Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6, cone of cold (fire substitute) would have up to 21d6 max damage, etc.

Shape Fire (Ex): At 5th level, the task mage gains the benefits of the Shape Spell feat to all his spells with the fire descriptor. This works exactly like the feat, except it does not modify the spell level of the effected spells.

Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.

Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage taps into the very primal and chaotic nature of flame to its finest, taking on the flames deadly dance and wispy movements when spellcasting. When casting a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage gains a dodge bonus to armor class and a bonus to reflex saving throws for a number of rounds both equal to the level of the spell cast.

Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any spell he casts with the fire descriptor. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Toss out the fire-only spells able to cast ; just make all the benefits only effect fire spells. They should be able to cast what they have available, even if its sucky.

Possibility - you could increase their base attack bonus to 3/4 (rogue level) for touch attacks and range touch attacks with stuff like Scorching Ray, etc, and give them something like d6 hit dice. I noticed you didnt give it HD... -pokes-

Also, instead of good reflex saves, notice my idea for Cant Touch This.

Last, but not least - if your going to quote the greatest fire mage in exsistance, at least use HER picture. >.> http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/133/week90py9.jpg

Owrtho
2009-06-17, 06:44 PM
Prerequisites;
Feats: Endurance, Energy Substitution (Fire).
Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Spells: Must know and be able to cast a 3rd level or higher spell with the fire descriptor.

Those prerequisites look better than what I had. I was having trouble thinking of any, though I still think I'll require knowing a minnimum number of fire spells (I'll change it to three thoguh I think).


Hit Dice: d6
Saves: Good Will, Bad Fort, Bad Ref.
Skills: 2 + Int Bonus, basic sorcerer skills for class skills, and replace Bluff with Intimidate.
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4, as rogue.

These seem to be good suggestions as well. I realized once I saw there was a reply I forgot HD and skills...


Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.

That damage bonus seems to work better than what I had. I think I'll change that.


Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, the task mage's spells with the fire descriptor ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.

I had also been planning to add some kind of fire resistance but couldn't figure out where to put it in.


Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, all caps of all spells the task mage uses with the fire descriptor are increased by 2 if they advance by one dice per two levels, or if they advance by one dice per level. If they do not do direct hit point damage, or advanced damage dice in these ways, this ability has no effect on that particular spell. At 6th level, this bonus damage dice cap increases to 4, and again at 9th level to a max of 6.

Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6 for a 10th level task mage. A scorching ray would get more rays. A burning hands would do up to 11d4 damage. Firebolts would get more missiles, etc.

I like this idea as well, I'd not concidered increasing possible damage amounts.


Shape Fire (Ex): At 5th level, the task mage gains the benefits of the Shape Spell feat to all his spells with the fire descriptor. This works exactly like the feat, except it does not modify the spell level of the effected spells.

I... have no idea what the shape spell feat does or where to find it.


Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.

I think I'll add this as well.


Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage taps into the very primal and chaotic nature of flame to its finest, taking on the flames deadly dance and wispy movements when spellcasting. When casting a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage gains a dodge bonus to armor class and a bonus to reflex saving throws for a number of rounds both equal to the level of the spell cast.

I had been looking for a good nineth level ability.


Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any spell he casts with the fire descriptor. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants.

That makes a good capstone I think.


Toss out the fire-only spells able to cast ; just make all the benefits only effect fire spells. They should be able to cast what they have available, even if its sucky.

Well, the fire only spells is about flavor. In general, being a task mage means that you believe any problem can be solved with fire, and will attempt to solve (generaly) all problems you believe can be solved with fire with fire. However, to make up for only being able to use spells with the fire description I added the applied fire ability which lets them make non fire spells fire spells. Also, I'd note that the benefits effect all fire damage delt by the task mage (not just spells).


Possibility - you could increase their base attack bonus to 3/4 (rogue level) for touch attacks and range touch attacks with stuff like Scorching Ray, etc, and give them something like d6 hit dice. I noticed you didnt give it HD... -pokes-

I think I'll do that.

Thank you for the suggestions.

Owrtho

The Blackbird
2009-06-17, 06:53 PM
Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage can only use spells with the fire descriptor. In addition the damage of all spells with the fire descriptor is increased by the task mage's class level, this increases to twice their class level at level 5.


Hm, I don't really like this that limits a spellcaster too severly, like WAY too severly.

EDIT:

Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.


Whew, much better

Owrtho
2009-06-17, 07:14 PM
Made most of the suggested changes. Didn't want to get rid of the limit on what spells they could use for flavor reasons, but changed it to only limit damage dealing spells. Reworded some things as well so as to effect all side damage dealt by the task mage rather than just their spells (mainly so that spell like or supernatural abilities wouldn't be left out).

Owrtho

DracoDei
2009-06-17, 07:45 PM
Needs an additional capstone that every level of an arcane casting class that you take after completeing this class you get an application of "Applied Flames" because otherwise you are going to run out of spells to learn pretty quick after exiting this class I should think.

PId6
2009-06-17, 08:38 PM
I do like this a lot but it seems a bit weak.

First of all, the entry requirements are especially annoying, since you're spending two nearly useless feats AND you need ranks in Intimidate, which is quite hard to get for wizards and sorcerers. Why Endurance anyway? The special requirement, while flavorsome, doesn't really seem necessary since anyone taking the class would probably already like fire anyway. I mean, it's somewhat like making a requirement for becoming a wizard as "must like magic." Also, this seems more fitting to be restricted to arcane spellcasters only.

Secondly, The loss of 3 spell levels is especially painful since direct damage is usually not as powerful as save or dies anyway. 3 spell levels take away 9th level spells from Sorcerers, which drastically cuts their power level late game, making it hard to want to take the class. I'd make it only lose 2 caster levels at most if I were you, possibly even only 1.

Thirdly, Applied Flames seems a little clunky, for lack of a better term. It seems to encourage you wait to take the class or else you won't be able to use it on the higher level spells. And the ability itself seems weak or just weird. You can already use Energy Substitution (Fire), so there's not much point in using it on a direct damage spell. As for non-damaging spells, it's entirely useless on offensive ones (10 damage? Really?) and not much better on defensive. The wording is a bit ambiguous as well in what it actually does (Duration? Does it work in an area? What does "touch the target" mean?) I would revise it to... actually, I have no idea what. I don't see much point at all in the ability to be honest.

Fourthly, since the class is taking away so much spellcasting, it should offer something more to compensate. How about giving you one spell with the [Fire] descriptor of your choice for each spell level when you gain access to it? That would help sorcerers quite a bit with their spell selections. Also you could do something like wizard specialization where you get more spell slots per day but you can only put [Fire] spells in those slots.

Fifthly, for Can't Touch This, does the effects stack? If so, that could get pretty broken as you keep casting high level fire spells and become essentially invincible. If not, which effect takes precedence? Do all effects remain on you but only the highest one counts?

Finally, Fight Fire with Fire... this is a very situational effect at best. I can't think of many fire spells that actually stay on the field for long periods of time.

So overall, cool class, but it's too much of a one-trick pony that takes away more than it gives. You should work on removing some of the costs of the class while enhancing its benefits.

TheYoungKing
2009-06-17, 08:52 PM
There is a feat in Sandstorm which lets fire spells overcome fire resistance.

Owrtho
2009-06-17, 09:26 PM
First of all, the entry requirements are especially annoying, since you're spending two nearly useless feats AND you need ranks in Intimidate, which is quite hard to get for wizards and sorcerers. Why Endurance anyway? The special requirement, while flavorsome, doesn't really seem necessary since anyone taking the class would probably already like fire anyway. I mean, it's somewhat like making a requirement for becoming a wizard as "must like magic." Also, this seems more fitting to be restricted to arcane spellcasters only.

As far as the endurance is concerned, thats a good point. I'll likely remove that. Also now that i look at it I'm not sure where energy substitution is from or what it does (though I assume it changes an energy type to the chosen one). The special requirement is somewhat of a joke one, as a character taking this class clearly does like fire, else they wouldn't take it. The intimidation itsn't much of an issue. As a non-class skill it just requires 2 skill point instead of 1, and can only be raised to a max of half your class skills max rank.


Secondly, The loss of 3 spell levels is especially painful since direct damage is usually not as powerful as save or dies anyway. 3 spell levels take away 9th level spells from Sorcerers, which drastically cuts their power level late game, making it hard to want to take the class. I'd make it only lose 2 caster levels at most if I were you, possibly even only 1.

Will likely change that. I'd forgotten that sorcerers would lose 9th level from that. Will probably make it so you only loose spells on the first level.


Thirdly, Applied Flames seems a little clunky, for lack of a better term. It seems to encourage you wait to take the class or else you won't be able to use it on the higher level spells. And the ability itself seems weak or just weird. You can already use Energy Substitution (Fire), so there's not much point in using it on a direct damage spell. As for non-damaging spells, it's entirely useless on offensive ones (10 damage? Really?) and not much better on defensive. The wording is a bit ambiguous as well in what it actually does (Duration? Does it work in an area? What does "touch the target" mean?) I would revise it to... actually, I have no idea what. I don't see much point at all in the ability to be honest.

I'll likely change it to just being used for damaging spells. That should simplify it some.


Fourthly, since the class is taking away so much spellcasting, it should offer something more to compensate. How about giving you one spell with the [Fire] descriptor of your choice for each spell level when you gain access to it? That would help sorcerers quite a bit with their spell selections. Also you could do something like wizard specialization where you get more spell slots per day but you can only put [Fire] spells in those slots.

Might do this as well, I'll have to think on it though.


Fifthly, for Can't Touch This, does the effects stack? If so, that could get pretty broken as you keep casting high level fire spells and become essentially invincible. If not, which effect takes precedence? Do all effects remain on you but only the highest one counts?

This doesn't stack, the highest one would count.


Finally, Fight Fire with Fire... this is a very situational effect at best. I can't think of many fire spells that actually stay on the field for long periods of time.

First, I'll note that this effects any fire. Not just magical fire. Someone set the barn on fire? A fireball will take care of that (warning may set barn on fire after putting out fire, use of non splash spell is advised). Also you overlook that it applies to fire spells that you cast which stay on the field as well. If you cast a wall of fire, and they try shooting a fire spell through it (and your wall of fire does better on the opposed damage check), they're fire spell will be put out. The same would be true of fire shield (which could be used to protect against fire damage if your a task mage).


So overall, cool class, but it's too much of a one-trick pony that takes away more than it gives. You should work on removing some of the costs of the class while enhancing its benefits.

Glad to hear you like it. And it is sorta supposed to be a one trick pony. The response of a member of this class to any problem that confronts them would most likely be Kill it with Fire.

Owrtho

PId6
2009-06-17, 09:59 PM
As far as the endurance is concerned, thats a good point. I'll likely remove that. Also now that i look at it I'm not sure where energy substitution is from or what it does (though I assume it changes an energy type to the chosen one). The special requirement is somewhat of a joke one, as a character taking this class clearly does like fire, else they wouldn't take it. The intimidation itsn't much of an issue. As a non-class skill it just requires 2 skill point instead of 1, and can only be raised to a max of half your class skills max rank.
Energy Substitution is from Complete Arcane; it just makes damaging spells change to the specific type and descriptor. By itself it actually does make sense since you can use it to change damaging spells to fire for the special abilities provided by this class. Intimidate just doesn't seem to match the class that much; it doesn't seem to be much of a social class and it doesn't seem inherently intimidating. Why not Knowledge (Arcana) or even Speak Language (Ignan)? Oh well, it's your choice either way.



I'll likely change it to just being used for damaging spells. That should simplify it some.
You'll still have the problem of the fact that if you take the class as soon as you can, after it ends, you won't be able to use it on your most powerful spells. Just having Energy Substitution solves the problem for damage spells anyway. If you really want to keep it, how about making it apply to specific descriptors of direct damage spells (eg Cold, Sonic, Force, Chaos, Water, etc) and replace them with [Fire]. This way, if you later take a 9th level spell cold spell, you can still use it as a fire spell if you took Applied Flames (Cold) previously. All of this is assuming you're removing Energy Substitution from the requirements though.



First, I'll note that this effects any fire. Not just magical fire. Someone set the barn on fire? A fireball will take care of that (warning may set barn on fire after putting out fire, use of non splash spell is advised). Also you overlook that it applies to fire spells that you cast which stay on the field as well. If you cast a wall of fire, and they try shooting a fire spell through it (and your wall of fire does better on the opposed damage check), they're fire spell will be put out. The same would be true of fire shield (which could be used to protect against fire damage if your a task mage).

Still very situational but I guess it has its uses.



Glad to hear you like it. And it is sorta supposed to be a one trick pony. The response of a member of this class to any problem that confronts them would most likely be Kill it with Fire.

I understand that, but I said one trick pony that takes away too much. Fix those problems, and it'll be fine. :smallwink:

Owrtho
2009-06-17, 10:13 PM
Energy Substitution is from Complete Arcane; it just makes damaging spells change to the specific type and descriptor. By itself it actually does make sense since you can use it to change damaging spells to fire for the special abilities provided by this class. Intimidate just doesn't seem to match the class that much; it doesn't seem to be much of a social class and it doesn't seem inherently intimidating. Why not Knowledge (Arcana) or even Speak Language (Ignan)? Oh well, it's your choice either way.

That helps, I think I will keep energy substitution for the class though. That is a good point with intimidate. I might just drop it as it adds little. I'd add knowledge (Arcana), except that I want to keep this open to other casting classes. Originaly I had been planning to make this class oppen to any characters that could create fire, but realized that would be too dificult to pull off (atleast without making two different versions of it one for casters and one for noncasters).


You'll still have the problem of the fact that if you take the class as soon as you can, after it ends, you won't be able to use it on your most powerful spells. Just having Energy Substitution solves the problem for damage spells anyway. If you really want to keep it, how about making it apply to specific descriptors of direct damage spells (eg Cold, Sonic, Force, Chaos, Water, etc) and replace them with [Fire]. This way, if you later take a 9th level spell cold spell, you can still use it as a fire spell if you took Applied Flames (Cold) previously. All of this is assuming you're removing Energy Substitution from the requirements though.

Given that, I'll likely make it so that by reaching level 10, you continue to gain Applied Fire even when taking levels in other classes (as suggested by DracoDei). As for the idea of changing specific descriptors, while I might be tempted, I'm going to leave in the Energy Substitution, and that wouldn't work for spells that deal damage but lack a descriptor (which this will likely be used primarily for). Also as for the issue of already having Energy Substitution, while it is useful for casters that prepare spells in advance, spontaneous casters would have the casting time of their spells increased by using it.



I understand that, but I said one trick pony that takes away too much. Fix those problems, and it'll be fine. :smallwink:

Well, I'm working on doing that, so i hope the problems will be fixed soon. ;)

Owrtho

Pramxnim
2009-06-17, 11:23 PM
What is the duration on Can't Touch This?

And now you must have an ability called Hammer Time! :smallbiggrin:

Owrtho
2009-06-17, 11:26 PM
I noticed that certain spells (such as Wall of Fire, and Fire Shield), wouldn't benefit much from this class due to their damage being +1 point per claster level, and as such I made the burning flames ability gained at level 5 which will change the +1 point per caster level into +1d4 per caster level. Not sure if this is balanced or not. But figured I'd post it and see.

Owrtho

quick_comment
2009-06-18, 12:04 AM
Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage can only use damage dealing spells with the fire descriptor.

Ironically, this just encourages anyone taking this prc to take snowcasting, eschew materials and energy substitution: fire. There, now all your spells have the [fire] descriptor.

Baron Corm
2009-06-18, 12:05 AM
I used to have a character which would have loved this prestige class. I've got a few suggestions though:

I'm wondering how Cant Touch This fits into this class. Seems out of place. Same with Coolness Under Fire, to a lesser extent (it seems to fit more just because of the pun).

Applied Flames and Fire Mastery both seem redundant, when you can duplicate most of their effects with your two prerequisite feats (Energy Substitution and Searing Spell, respectively).

Fight Fire with Fire is very cool and I'm very fond of the mechanics, but I'm just not sure that it would ever come into play. Fireballs, and most fire spells, don't actually create any lasting fire. Hmm... perhaps homebrew a metamagic feat, spell, or class feature which creates lasting fire?

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 01:01 AM
Ironically, this just encourages anyone taking this prc to take snowcasting, eschew materials and energy substitution: fire. There, now all your spells have the [fire] descriptor.

Well, that would be a good thing with how the class is themed. Based on the theme they would even do things like use wall of ice and use energy substitution (fire) to make a solid wall of fire (or a bridge of fire) that would actually be a solid instead of like wall of fire which you can just jump through (even if it causes damage).


I'm wondering how Cant Touch This fits into this class. Seems out of place. Same with Coolness Under Fire, to a lesser extent (it seems to fit more just because of the pun).

Well, coolness under fire make is so they are harder to stop when casting fire spells. Can't touch this is due to the general lack of defensive ability among fire spells. Though just now I got the idea of making it instead cause them to get a shell of flame that acts like the fire shield spell for a number of rounds equal to the to the cast spells level. (in fact I'm going to make that change now).


Applied Flames and Fire Mastery both seem redundant, when you can duplicate most of their effects with your two prerequisite feats (Energy Substitution and Searing Spell, respectively).

Well firstly, Energy Substitution can only be applied to spells that already have a energy descriptor, Applied Flames doesn't have that limit. Also it is permanent for the chosen spells (so you don't need to add the meta magic which for spontaneous casters makes it take longer to cast). Fire Mastery, not being a meta magic, does not increase the spell level it also ignores fire immunity completely (instead of making it half the damage). Also it has a few other effects (like giving the fire subtype).


Fight Fire with Fire is very cool and I'm very fond of the mechanics, but I'm just not sure that it would ever come into play. Fireballs, and most fire spells, don't actually create any lasting fire. Hmm... perhaps homebrew a metamagic feat, spell, or class feature which creates lasting fire?

Well, like i said, it can be used to on non magic fires. Also (I should likely specify this), you can use it in reverse as well. If you have a flame you made in the way, it can put out fires going through it. For example if you cast a wall of fire, any fire spells being cast from one side to the other (by others) would be subjected to fight fire with fire. As would abilities like a dragons Breath Weapon (if it is of the fire type), and fire arrows could be put out going through it.

Owrtho

Fizban
2009-06-18, 01:24 AM
I should point out that Task Mages aren't actually fire specialists, they're more like mages for hire: mercenaries. That said, mercenaries kill things, and fire is the king of killing things.

The problem with Fire Mastery as a capstone is that the class needs it at first level in order to function: too many creatures have resistance or immunity to fire to be able to get by without a way to bypass it. The metamagic searing spell does this for +1 level, and I see you have included it as a prerequisite, but you're effectively penalizing all their spells by a level if they want to be prepared. I'd remove the adjustment at 1st level, and make the Fight Fire With Fire ability bypass fire subtype instead of putting out fires, since such an awesome name needs an awesome ability. I'd also throw in a Fight Everything With Fire ability somewhere, maybe use that for Enhanced Fire Power.

I'm pretty sure we're getting towards ridiculous damage potential without effort using this class, but I'm sure it doesn't compare to a properly cheesed out damage caster, so it falls under the "use responsibly" clause, fine by me.

Oh, and you should throw in one of those Advanced Learning dealies for grabbing non-Sor/Wiz fire spells, just for good measure.

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 01:39 AM
I should point out that Task Mages aren't actually fire specialists, they're more like mages for hire: mercenaries. That said, mercenaries kill things, and fire is the king of killing things.

Well, that likely depends on the individual, but is likely true in most cases.


The problem with Fire Mastery as a capstone is that the class needs it at first level in order to function: too many creatures have resistance or immunity to fire to be able to get by without a way to bypass it. The metamagic searing spell does this for +1 level, and I see you have included it as a prerequisite, but you're effectively penalizing all their spells by a level if they want to be prepared. I'd remove the adjustment at 1st level, and make the Fight Fire With Fire ability bypass fire subtype instead of putting out fires, since such an awesome name needs an awesome ability. I'd also throw in a Fight Everything With Fire ability somewhere, maybe use that for Enhanced Fire Power.

Well, they gain the ability to reduce damage resistance at level 2 (and it increases the reduction every even level), but I should likely add in a thing for fire immunity (that changed it to half damage with maybe 30 fire resistance. Used to have something like that at level 4 I think it was). I think that I'll add to the fight fire with fire ability that it bypasses the fire immunity of the fire subtype.

I... I can't... I can't believe I didn't realize it. I must immediatly remedy the lack of an ability named Fight Everything With Fire.


I'm pretty sure we're getting towards ridiculous damage potential without effort using this class, but I'm sure it doesn't compare to a properly cheesed out damage caster, so it falls under the "use responsibly" clause, fine by me.

Its possible (or rather quite likely).


Oh, and you should throw in one of those Advanced Learning dealies for grabbing non-Sor/Wiz fire spells, just for good measure.

I think I'll add that into the Applied Flames abillity.

Owrtho

Fizban
2009-06-18, 04:07 AM
I hadn't noticed the resistance bypass you had in Firelord, or I wouldn't have mentioned it actually. The various bypass and reductions get a little clunky, but each on it's own is pretty cool.

Fight Everything With Fire is so powerful is crosses the line from broken to awesome. While too many creatures at high levels have resistance to fire, leveled NPCs and those few that don't now get toasted for 10-25+ change by a simple cantrip.

However, the class is now too awesome. Between empowering through +x per die, empowering by increasing dice cap, empowering by adding extra damage to non-resistant creatures (admittedly awesome), and topping it off by doubling everything for +1 level, it's too much. I'd take of the +x per die and knock the capstone down to +50% on random variables. Still ridiculous, but not ridiculously so.

Also, a question: while they can only personally cast fire spells of the fire variety, can they still use non-fire items?

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 05:16 AM
I hadn't noticed the resistance bypass you had in Firelord, or I wouldn't have mentioned it actually. The various bypass and reductions get a little clunky, but each on it's own is pretty cool.

Not quite sure how to fix that.


Fight Everything With Fire is so powerful is crosses the line from broken to awesome. While too many creatures at high levels have resistance to fire, leveled NPCs and those few that don't now get toasted for 10-25+ change by a simple cantrip.

Well, the idea is to kill it with fire. Would it perhaps be better if I capped the damage this could cause at one's class level?


However, the class is now too awesome. Between empowering through +x per die, empowering by increasing dice cap, empowering by adding extra damage to non-resistant creatures (admittedly awesome), and topping it off by doubling everything for +1 level, it's too much. I'd take of the +x per die and knock the capstone down to +50% on random variables. Still ridiculous, but not ridiculously so.

I'll think it over and see what the reaction is I think before I change it too much.


Also, a question: while they can only personally cast fire spells of the fire variety, can they still use non-fire items?

Well, first I'd note the restriction is only on damage dealing spells. That aside, I'd say no, as the reason behind the restriction is because the task mage just refuses to other methods than fire to take care of things (given the class abilities, I'd say the boosts to fire make up for the lack of not fire).

Owrtho

Fizban
2009-06-18, 05:39 AM
I'm not sure if I asked my last question properly, so I'll rephrase it: can the Task Mage cast anything other than damage dealing fire spells (I'm currently reading it as no)? If he can't, can he still use items (wands, scrolls, staffs) of non-damage dealing spells?

If it looses all other spells then ridiculous damage is the only way left to make up for it, though I'd still try and stop at some point. If it's just a restriction on damage types to fire, then it's dealing too much damage.

For clunkiness, I think Firelord is about as good as it's going to get. I'd have Fight Everything With Fire change to "he now deals an extra 5 damage per 2 levels from his Firelord ability, instead of only ignoring resistance", though that would make it more powerful when combined with the current double damage capstone. For Fight Fire With Fire, the main thing is "fire subtype takes half damage and has resistance 40", cause then you have to check subtype->half damage->40 resistance->subtract Firelord-> subtract effective resistance from half original damage. It's not hard, but it's a long string. I don't see what makes fire subtype so much more special than immunity myself, so I'd drop the extra resistance and just make it automatic half damage against immunity and subtype, and full damage with searing spell.

I also wonder if you meant to have the dice cap increase be the same number of dice for both /level and /2 levels spells, or be equivalent (so max 6 dice for /levels and 3 dice for /2 levels). I'm also pretty sure searing light isn't a fire spell.

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 06:12 AM
I'm not sure if I asked my last question properly, so I'll rephrase it: can the Task Mage cast anything other than damage dealing fire spells (I'm currently reading it as no)? If he can't, can he still use items (wands, scrolls, staffs) of non-damage dealing spells?

If it looses all other spells then ridiculous damage is the only way left to make up for it, though I'd still try and stop at some point. If it's just a restriction on damage types to fire, then it's dealing too much damage.

Hadn't noticed that it was worded in a misleading manner. As such I've fixed it. They are able to cast non damage dealing spells of any type.


For clunkiness, I think Firelord is about as good as it's going to get. I'd have Fight Everything With Fire change to "he now deals an extra 5 damage per 2 levels from his Firelord ability, instead of only ignoring resistance", though that would make it more powerful when combined with the current double damage capstone. For Fight Fire With Fire, the main thing is "fire subtype takes half damage and has resistance 40", cause then you have to check subtype->half damage->40 resistance->subtract Firelord-> subtract effective resistance from half original damage. It's not hard, but it's a long string. I don't see what makes fire subtype so much more special than immunity myself, so I'd drop the extra resistance and just make it automatic half damage against immunity and subtype, and full damage with searing spell.

I might try doing that. But I think I'll wait a little bit in this case. I've been up awhile so all this tricky stuff with wording might not be the best thing for me to try to work on at the moment. That said, if someone can figure out how to take care of the issue well I might do that (with the whole thing typed out). Otherwise I'll wait till later today when I'm more rested.


I also wonder if you meant to have the dice cap increase be the same number of dice for both /level and /2 levels spells, or be equivalent (so max 6 dice for /levels and 3 dice for /2 levels). I'm also pretty sure searing light isn't a fire spell.

It is meant to be the same. And as it turns out your right, searing light isn't a fire spell (I'm not the one who wrote that up). But as I couldn't find any fire spells that increased damage die by 1 per 2 levels, I'll just leave it for now (and you can get it anyways with the applied flames ability).

Also, as you seem to like this fire based prc, perhaps you be interested in taking a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106072) (possibly) fire themed prc I made where you can actually turn into a fireball (its the first PRC after the base class).

Owrtho

Set
2009-06-18, 08:25 AM
It is meant to be the same. And as it turns out your right, searing light isn't a fire spell (I'm not the one who wrote that up). But as I couldn't find any fire spells that increased damage die by 1 per 2 levels, I'll just leave it for now (and you can get it anyways with the applied flames ability).

Using an Applied Flames-modified Magic Missile as the example might work better.

Cieyrin
2009-06-18, 10:40 AM
I wonder about the 3/4 BAB and d6 HD on a full caster PRC (well, practically full caster. 9/10 is close enough to full) Considering all you get anyways, i don't see a particular reason that they're necessarily any tougher than their other magely brethren or more battle-trained, either. If you're going all Pathfindery with this, then the HD matches up but the BAB is still out there. It's a fully powered arcane PRC, he's got no reason to be any less glass cannon then his Wizard and Sorcerer buddies (probably Wujens as well, given I could definitely see Fire Wujens gathering to get into this PRC by the drove).

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 10:54 AM
I wonder about the 3/4 BAB and d6 HD on a full caster PRC (well, practically full caster. 9/10 is close enough to full) Considering all you get anyways, i don't see a particular reason that they're necessarily any tougher than their other magely brethren or more battle-trained, either. If you're going all Pathfindery with this, then the HD matches up but the BAB is still out there. It's a fully powered arcane PRC, he's got no reason to be any less glass cannon then his Wizard and Sorcerer buddies (probably Wujens as well, given I could definitely see Fire Wujens gathering to get into this PRC by the drove).

Actually I'd forgotten that d4 were used for HD. Also I rather agree about the half BAB (thats what I'd originally had it as).

Owrtho

Baron Corm
2009-06-18, 11:19 AM
To analyze the class a bit with delayed last fireball with Arcane Thesis:

Searing Spell, Empower (Level 8): 26d6 x 2 + 26d6 x .5 + 26 x 3 = 65d6 + 78 = 143 min, 305 average, 468 max

Searing Spell, Empower, Ocular (level 9, 1/day): 286 min, 610 average, 936 max

Irresistable, but a Reflex save still cuts it in half. So, assuming failed saves, on average you 1-shot a balor, and could possibly 1-shot a CR 20 red dragon. At minimum, you will probably be killing most non-monsters. This is an area effect so it could end the encounter straight away. The enemy gets 1 extra round to live if he makes his save, unless you use your ocular version. If he has Evasion, you do have spells which target Fortitude saves. Basically the class turns your damage spells into save-and-have-Evasion-and-Mettle-or-dies. Hey, there's spells out there that do this with less chance for survival, so take it for what you will.

Owrtho
2009-06-18, 06:24 PM
Hmm, I'd forgoten about empower spell. I've gone and made using searing flames after getting Fire Mastery increase the spell level by 2 instead of 1. Hopefully that will make it somewhat less powerful.

Owrtho

togapika
2009-06-19, 12:26 AM
What's the point of immunity if everyone and his brother are making some feat or prestige class that can bypass it?

PId6
2009-06-19, 12:27 AM
What's the point of immunity if everyone and his brother are making some feat or prestige class that can bypass it?
To make you waste feats/levels.

Fizban
2009-06-19, 03:14 AM
Because too many things that have no business being immune to fire, are.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 08:16 AM
Because too many things that have no business being immune to fire, are.

Indeed. A fire elemental not being burned by fire, I can see. A red dragon getting tossed into the center of the earth and coming out without a scorch mark, not so much, magical creature or not.

Owrtho
2009-06-19, 02:32 PM
Slightly modified the Fight fire with fire and fight everything with fire abilities. Fight fire with fire now allows the task mage to overcome any creatures fire immunity (instead of just those of the fire subtype), but it only deals a quarter of its fire damage to them. Fight everything with fire now just has its second effect.

Owrtho

TheYoungKing
2009-06-19, 02:51 PM
I could see fire elementals getting hurt by fire.

Assuming they have a natural equilibrium temperature, applying more heat could lead to problems for them. Not sure on the physiology of elementals, of course, but I'm certain someone could justify it.

quick_comment
2009-06-19, 03:17 PM
Considering that there is a +1 metamagic that cuts through all fire resistance, fire immunity and even partly through fire subtypes, a 10 level class giving the same benefit is by no means out of the question

Zaakar
2009-06-25, 03:34 PM
So, I've got two questions and one suggestion regarding Searing spell metamagic feat.
Questions:
1. Is this the metamagic feat you are refering to?
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Searing_Spell,all

2. If so, then what does this...


Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any fire damage he deals. Creatures with fire vulnerability take double damage instead of an additional half damage. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants. Also, when the task mage gains a level, regardless of what class they take, they gain Applied Flames. If the task mage uses the searing flames metamagic it doubles the fire damage of the spell instead of its normal effect, but makes the spell count as 2 levels higher instead of 1.
Owrtho
...mean?
Does it mean that you allways deal doubble damage with spells you applyed searing spell to, not only to creatures with the cold subtype? Isn't that a little overpowered? I'm no expert, but it seem very poorly balanced to me. I just don't get what you mean.
(Also, did you call it "searing flames" instead of "searing spell" with a reson? Did i miss somthing?)



And now I'm Jumping into this discussion, since i think searing spell is out of place in as a requirement.
Suggestion:


Requirements:
‣Feats: Searing Spell*, Energy Substitution (Fire).

The "searing spell" metamagic feat seem a little off as a class requrement to me. Half of the class abilities focus on dealing damage to otherwise immune or resistant opponents anyway. I get that it fits with the flavour of the class, but I don't think it's neccecary to have as a requirement, rather that you get that ability by progressing in the class. If you want the feat tied to Fire Mastery, then put it in the class table or somthing, since Fire Mastery is a 10th lvl ability. I suggest that you rather put one of the following feats in the requrement list:
Firey spell
(From Sandstorm, here's a link: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fiery_Spell,all)
Blistering spell
(PHB II, so I'd pick Fiery spell... Link: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blistering_Spell,all)

Or something less connected to fire, but most likely useful to a fire-based blaster, like empowered spell, selective spell... I just don't think Searing spell is a good pick since the class get that in class abilities anyway.


Though I like it as a whole. I'm making a Sor/TM now, hopefully i'll get to play it :smallbiggrin:

Owrtho
2009-06-25, 04:07 PM
1. Is this the metamagic feat you are refering to?
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Searing_Spell,all

That is what I was referring to.

[QUOTE=Zaakar;6365598]Does it mean that you allways deal doubble damage with spells you applyed searing spell to, not only to creatures with the cold subtype? Isn't that a little overpowered? I'm no expert, but it seem very poorly balanced to me. I just don't get what you mean.
(Also, did you call it "searing flames" instead of "searing spell" with a reson? Did i miss somthing?)

It would mean that. Not sure if its overpowered. Mostly I didn't want a required feature to become useless. Also, it was just a typo (lots of things use the word flames in this class)


The "searing spell" metamagic feat seem a little off as a class requrement to me. Half of the class abilities focus on dealing damage to otherwise immune or resistant opponents anyway. I get that it fits with the flavour of the class, but I don't think it's neccecary to have as a requirement, rather that you get that ability by progressing in the class. If you want the feat tied to Fire Mastery, then put it in the class table or somthing, since Fire Mastery is a 10th lvl ability. I suggest that you rather put one of the following feats in the requrement list:
Firey spell
(From Sandstorm, here's a link: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fiery_Spell,all)
Blistering spell
(PHB II, so I'd pick Fiery spell... Link: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blistering_Spell,all)

I'd actually been thinking about whether to use searing spell or fiery spell. Hadn't even known about blistering spell. I might actually change it to one of those given how class features turned out (there had been less that helped overcome fire resistance in the original version). Also there will still be a good chance that they would take all three of these fire based metamagic feats due to the buffing for their fire spells.


Or something less connected to fire, but most likely useful to a fire-based blaster, like empowered spell, selective spell... I just don't think Searing spell is a good pick since the class get that in class abilities anyway.

Think I might just change it to one of the other mentioned metamagic feats.


Though I like it as a whole. I'm making a Sor/TM now, hopefully i'll get to play it :smallbiggrin:

Glad you like it. If you do get to play it let me know how it turns out.

Owrtho

sidhe3141
2009-06-26, 04:29 AM
Burning Flames seems a bit OP to me. At the earliest that a Task Mage could cast a Burning-Flames-enhanced Wall of Flame (Clr 5 [Fire Domain]/Task Mage 5), it would do 2d6+9d4+22, or an average of 51.5, threatening massive damage. A normal Clr 10's most damaging spell would be Flame Strike, which would do 10d6 (average 35).
I think that the damage dice from Burning Flames should be excluded from Dedication to Flames; this would bring the average damage down to 33.5.

Owrtho
2009-06-26, 10:10 PM
I took your advice and changed it.

Owrtho

Norr
2009-06-29, 11:39 AM
As far as I can see, it seems that the easiest way to build this class is to have it grant the feats Fiery spell and Searing spell (both mentioned above) and then improve them in iterations as the class progresses; adding damage to the Fiery spell feat with Dedication to flames (Dedication could either initially grant the feat or it might be a prerequisite for the class), eventually making the feat free to use and granting/improving the Searing spell feat through the Fight fire with fire and Fight everything with fire abilities, since the power these feats grant are more powerful than the class abilities up until about level 4.
The class also makes these feats obsolete, might as well incorporate them from the start and build upon them.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-22, 08:10 PM
Indeed. A fire elemental not being burned by fire, I can see. A red dragon getting tossed into the center of the earth and coming out without a scorch mark, not so much, magical creature or not.

I'm a meat elemental, and I'm not immune to being bludgeoned to death by porterhouse steak. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6267682#post6267682)

Still, cool class. I think there should be similar classes for other damage types. Which means we need similar feats for sonic, acid, electricity, maybe negative/positive energy...