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paddyfool
2009-06-19, 04:02 AM
Lots of good, fun, D&D races lack a racial paragon prestige class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm). Why don't we have a thread for a few of them here? I'll start with one of my own ideas, but I can add others to this first post if anyone writes them into the thread below. Feedback would also be very welcome! So, here goes:

Elan racial paragon (the psionic race, not the bard)
Fluff

Stuff to go here

Crunch

Hit die: d6
Skill points: 2+int
Class skills: As Psion, but may select class skills from any two disciplines of the player's choice.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Psionic powers

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Enhanced resistance, resilience and repletion |

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Darkvision 60'|+1 level of existing manifester class

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Ability boost: Int+2|+1 level of existing manifester class[/table]

Enhanced resistance: Duration extended to 1 minute/int bonus 3 rounds
Enhanced resilience: Heals 2+Int 4 hit points per power point expended
Enhanced repletion: Duration extended to 1 week/power point.

Receives power points and powers for each bonus level of existing manifester class.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-19, 06:29 AM
A little to powerful, in my mind. You've given it the ability to, for 1 power point, gain a basically permanent (1 pp per combat? Not a big deal.) +4 to all saving throws, and also tossed it a potential Fast Healing ranging between 3 and...well...12 or 13. For 1 Power Point.

I'd make the first ability a flat 3 rounds, and make the second a simple 4 hp per power point. I think it balances out better.

paddyfool
2009-06-19, 06:39 AM
Fair points, both. I had originally gone for healing four points of damage, and I suppose it does make more sense.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-19, 06:46 AM
There we go. I have nothing to comment on any more, except that now I believe it to be pretty much complete. The only other thing I'd consider is front-loading it a little bit less and moving Improved Resilience up to 2nd level to discourage dipping.

Very nice work though! I approve wholeheartedly. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 08:07 AM
Did you have any particular races in mind to make classes for, paddyfool? I might have time to flesh out a few ideas for paragon classes, but I don't want to preempt you if you already had something in the works.

paddyfool
2009-06-19, 08:17 AM
There we go. I have nothing to comment on any more, except that now I believe it to be pretty much complete. The only other thing I'd consider is front-loading it a little bit less and moving Improved Resilience up to 2nd level to discourage dipping.

I doubt many Elans would dip - they're almost always a psionic class, and get no manifesting advancement in that first level. Also, with full manifesting progression in later levels, a +2 Int and darkvision, I'd hardly call it frontloaded.


Very nice work though! I approve wholeheartedly. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you!


Did you have any particular races in mind to make classes for, paddyfool? I might have time to flesh out a few ideas for paragon classes, but I don't want to preempt you if you already had something in the works.

Very considerate of you, and thank you for your interest! I was thinking Goliaths might be fun to do next as a more martial option. Otherwise, I have no particular intentions - go with whatever you like.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 08:50 AM
Alrighty then. I think I'll start by rounding out the psionic races.


Dromite Paragon
HD: d6
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Class Skills: As Wilder

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Manifesting

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Improved Chitin|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Font of Energy, Improved Resistance|+1 level of existing manifesting class

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Ability boost: Cha +2|+1 level of existing manifesting class[/table]

Improved Chitin: The natural armor bonus granted by the dromite's chitin improves to +5.

Improved Resistance: The dromite's natural energy resistance improves to resist 10 vs. the chosen energy type.

Font of Energy: The dromite may now use his racial energy ray power an additional number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Half-Giant Paragon
HD: d10
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Class Skills: As Psychic Warrior

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Manifesting

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Keen Vision, Fire Resistance|

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Growth|+1 level of existing manifesting class

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Ability boost: Str +2|+1 level of existing manifesting class[/table]

Keen Vision: The half-giant can see three times as far as normal in low-light conditions.

Fire Resistance: The half-giant gains fire resistance 5.

Growth: The half-giant gains the space and reach of a Large creature.


Maenad Paragon
HD: d6
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Class Skills: As Wilder

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Manifesting

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Violent Outburst|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Psychic Scream|+1 level of existing manifesting class

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Ability boost: Int +2|+1 level of existing manifesting class[/table]

Violent Outburst: When using his Outburst ability, the maenad takes a -2 penalty to his choice of Intelligence or Wisdom (not both) and gains a +4 bonus to Strength.

Psychic Scream: The maenad replaces his energy ray psi-like ability with an energy cone psi-like ability; all other properties of the ability remain the same.


Xeph Paragon
HD: d6
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Class Skills: As Soulknife

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Manifesting

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Soulknife Aptitude, Increased Resistance|

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Surge|+1 level of existing manifesting class

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Ability boost: Dex +2|+1 level of existing manifesting class[/table]

Soulknife Aptitude: Levels in xeph paragon stack with soulknife levels to determine the effective enhancement bonus of the soulknife's mind blade, his Psychic Strike damage, and available weapon shapes.

Increased Resistance: The xeph's racial bonus to saving throws increases to +2.

Surge: Once per round, the xeph can spend two uses of his racial burst ability to gain an extra standard action.

Whaddya think?

paddyfool
2009-06-19, 09:36 AM
Really impressive stuff, on the whole! Forgive me if I get a little critical in places, however. Here's what I think:

Generally: I think that having manifesting improve at all three levels is too much - why would any character not go the racial paragon route? Two levels seems to fit all of these characters best; remember that many other racial paragons get one level or none, and none get more than 2.

Dromite: Natural armor increase of +2; seems OK, although the half-dragon paragon only gets a +1 on the level its score increases, so you might want to reduce it to that. Improved resistance and font of energy seems a bit much, although both are in keeping for the class - perhaps just one or the other? I particularly like font of energy, since 1/day abilities get irritating visavis resource keeping. The major deal would be to cut the manifesting progression down.

Half-Giant: Maybe make that a 3x rather than a 4x modifier on low-light vision, in keeping with precedent (Elfsight for elven paragon). Energy resistance is fine; growth could potentially be abused with the reach increase etc., but it's hardly the end of the world. Possibly make the manifesting progression Psychic warrior only and/or cut it down to two levels. Or if two levels and Psychic warrior only, could give the character good BAB. Also, why Con? With +2 Str +2 Con -2 Dex, increasing Str seems more in keeping for a giant.

Maenad: Fine

Xeph: That +3 save bonus vs psionics, magic etc. is really handy... especially if you're not playing a manifesting class, and don't mind being docked the level increase. Perhaps we should state at level 1 that Xeph paragon levels count towards the soulknife level total for the weapon's enhancement bonus (since the manifesting bonus wouldn't affect this class), and cut that save bonus down to +2. Overall, however, it seems reasonable.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 10:08 AM
Really impressive stuff, on the whole! Forgive me if I get a little critical in places, however. Here's what I think:

Generally: I think that having manifesting improve at all three levels is too much - why would any character not go the racial paragon route? Two levels seems to fit all of these characters best; remember that many other racial paragons get one level or none, and none get more than 2.

It's the level adjustment. If you're a manifester, you need all the levels you can get, and taking that LA hit is equivalent (in my view) to having an LA +0 race lose a level when taking racial paragon. Were it spellcasting they'd definitely lose the level, but psionics are balanced enough that I prefer recouping the lost level.


Dromite: Natural armor increase of +2; seems OK, although the half-dragon paragon only gets a +1 on the level its score increases, so you might want to reduce it to that. Improved resistance and font of energy seems a bit much, although both are in keeping for the class - perhaps just one or the other?

The half-dragon only gets a +1 increase, but he starts with a +4; both end up with a +5 after their respective increases.

Improved resistance I don't think is that big of a problem, given that resist energy or protection from energy easily make it redundant around that level.


I particularly like font of energy, since 1/day abilities get irritating visavis resource keeping. The major deal would be to cut the manifesting progression down.

I also hate 1/day abilities (racial or class-based) and usually add an ability modifier in there somewhere. Again, the increased progression is to make up for the LA, and you'll notice that the LA +0 races lose a manifesting level.


Half-Giant: Maybe make that a 3x rather than a 4x modifier on low-light vision, in keeping with precedent (Elfsight for elven paragon).

This one was an oversight on my part, no pun intended; I was remembering dragons' 4x rather than elves' 3x. Three times range it is.


Energy resistance is fine; growth could potentially be abused with the reach increase etc., but it's hardly the end of the world. Possibly make the manifesting progression Psychic warrior only and/or cut it down to two levels. Or if two levels and Psychic warrior only, could give the character good BAB. Also, why Con? With +2 Str +2 Con -2 Dex, increasing Str seems more in keeping for a giant.

It's a +2 to Con because going up a size category increases Str by +8 and Con by only +4; this keeps them more even with a 2-point disparity rather than giving a +10 Str bonus.


Xeph: That +3 save bonus vs psionics, magic etc. is really handy... especially if you're not playing a manifesting class, and don't mind being docked the level increase. Perhaps we should state at level 1 that Xeph paragon levels count towards the soulknife level total for the weapon's enhancement bonus (since the manifesting bonus wouldn't affect this class), and cut that save bonus down to +2. Overall, however, it seems reasonable.

Sounds like a good idea. Will do.

EDIT: Changes made.

paddyfool
2009-06-19, 10:23 AM
It's the level adjustment. If you're a manifester, you need all the levels you can get, and taking that LA hit is equivalent (in my view) to having an LA +0 race lose a level when taking racial paragon. Were it spellcasting they'd definitely lose the level, but psionics are balanced enough that I prefer recouping the lost level.


With level buyback, a +1 really isn't all that much. The half-dragon, drow, and tiefling paragons don't get full casting, so I really don't think we should give it here either.



It's a +2 to Con because going up a size category increases Str by +8 and Con by only +4; this keeps them more even with a 2-point disparity rather than giving a +10 Str bonus.


Wait, you're including the stat changes among the improvements from Growth? I thought we were just talking space and reach - now I seriously think this is overpowered. How about we give this bloke reach as if he was large, and then give him a Str bonus at third level?


Incidentally, on another front entirely, I think we should make the class skills broader - I set a bad precedent with my Elan racial paragon. Perhaps I should change that to "As Psion, but with skills any two disciplines of the player's choice", and for the others, we could have "As X, + (a few generally useful skills)", e.g. for Half-giant we could have "As Psychic Warrior, plus Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive".

EDIT: As regards Xephs, that Soulknife advancement is too vague. Perhaps we should say instead "the Xeph paragon's level stacks with its Soulknife level for determining progression of Mind Blade, Mind Blade Enhancement, and Psychic Strike". Those are the three key ones which progress quantitatively; the special stuff could be viewed as being delayed for the other special stuff of this class.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 10:55 AM
With level buyback, a +1 really isn't all that much. The half-dragon, drow, and tiefling paragons don't get full casting, so I really don't think we should give it here either.

Forgot about LA buyoff there--don't know why, 'cause I always use it. I'll change that.


Wait, you're including the stat changes among the improvements from Growth? I thought we were just talking space and reach - now I seriously think this is overpowered. How about we give this bloke reach as if he was large, and then give him a Str bonus at third level?

That works too, I suppose.


Incidentally, on another front entirely, I think we should make the class skills broader - I set a bad precedent with my Elan racial paragon. Perhaps I should change that to "As Psion, but with skills any two disciplines of the player's choice", and for the others, we could have "As X, + (a few generally useful skills)", e.g. for Half-giant we could have "As Psychic Warrior, plus Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive".

It's mostly because I didn't want to go to the trouble of determining class skills, not because I was adhering to your precedent. :smallwink: I'll add a few skills in.


EDIT: As regards Xephs, that Soulknife advancement is too vague. Perhaps we should say instead "the Xeph paragon's level stacks with its Soulknife level for determining progression of Mind Blade, Mind Blade Enhancement, and Psychic Strike". Those are the three key ones which progress quantitatively; the special stuff could be viewed as being delayed for the other special stuff of this class.

Well, when I see "enhancements to the soulknife's mind blade" I think of things that directly enhance the blade--Mind Blade Enhancement, the special abilities, the various shapes, and bladewind. Limiting it to effective enhancement bonus and psychic strike works too.

Samb
2009-07-02, 09:02 AM
I'll give sub levels a try then

Maenad wilder
Level 1: all same as wilder 1 except psychic enervation is replaced with enervation resistance. When using wild surge a maenad wilder's chance of enevation is treated as if he used a wild surge of one level lower for a minium chance of 5%. So if a level 3 maenad wilder uses a wild surge +2, his chances of enervation is only 5% as opposed to 10%. However, if he were to use wild surge +1, his chances of enervation is still 5% (due to the minium).
Flavor: well maenads hold all their emotions in check so it makes sense they are more resistant to being overcome by them.

This replaces the wild surge +1 feature at level one. The wild surge +2 is replaced with +1 instead at level 3and wild surge progresses from that point.

Wilder 4 level: surging outburst replaces surging euphoria. Basicially the same as surging euphoria but while under it's effects, the maenad's is able maintain his outburst free of it's usual 4 round limit.

Level 14: maenad wilders can use his/her outburst to nullify one failed enervation roll.

paddyfool
2009-07-02, 11:03 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't like those substitutions - all three of them are just plain better, with extra stuff given for no cost. Usually, substitutions swap stuff out for other stuff.

togapika
2009-07-02, 11:17 AM
Anyone got any racial substitution levels for goblins?

paddyfool
2009-07-02, 11:46 AM
Anyone got any racial substitution levels for goblins?

I've never seen any, but I like the way you're thinking. A goblin racial paragon class would also be good - and as goblins are underpowered for CR, it could even err on the generous side to go some way to redressing the balance.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-02, 03:35 PM
[...]and as goblins are underpowered for CR, it could even err on the generous side to go some way to redressing the balance.

If we're trying to compensate for the goblin's underpoweredness, what new goblin-y traits could a racial path grant? I don't think just improving existing abilities would go far enough.

paddyfool
2009-07-02, 04:45 PM
Standard goblin PC stats:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ĺ those of Medium characters.
A goblinís base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

First (sleepy) draft suggestion for prestige class:

d8 hit die
4 skill points per level
class skills: Spot, listen, hide, move silently, tumble, balance, climb, swim, jump, ride, concentration, bluff, craft, perform, profession, survival
2/3 attack progression
Good reflex & fortitude saves

1st level:
Elude the big folks: +4 racial bonus to Tumble and Escape artist, and +1 bonus to AC versus characters Medium or larger.
Wolf-friend: +4 racial bonus to handle animal checks with a worg, wolf or dire wolf

2nd level:
+1d6 Sneak Attack (as Rogue, stacks)
Darkwalker: +2 racial bonus to spot, search and hide in dark or low-light conditions.

3rd level:
+2 Con
+1 level spellcasting in any arcane class

That's about as much as I could possibly justify squeezing in there... and I'm not sure what class would ever want to take it all the way (a rogue who was keen on getting better at surviving combat, maybe, but they'd really miss the skill points). Might be decent for an NPC Goblin chief, though. Darnit, any ideas to make this better without going too far outside the normal racial paragon confines?

Samb
2009-07-02, 11:36 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't like those substitutions - all three of them are just plain better, with extra stuff given for no cost. Usually, substitutions swap stuff out for other stuff.

Sorry I have to disagree with that. Take a look at shifter wilder in races of eberron. At level one it gains access to egoist (!!!!!) list for nothing in exchange. Then in level 6 it gains euphoric shifting for nothing at all. The only time it had to exchange something was elude touch for savage renewal at level 2, and savage renewal is a sweet racial feature.

So while you usually exchange, that is not always the case.

I did make enervation resistance replace wild surge so that its benefit would not be seen until level 7.

paddyfool
2009-07-03, 05:03 AM
I did make enervation resistance replace wild surge so that its benefit would not be seen until level 7.

Oh wait - I missed the "this replaces wild surge +1" bit. OK, that makes a bit more sense.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-03, 05:29 PM
Wolf-friend: +4 racial bonus to handle animal checks with a worg, wolf or dire wolf

Make it +4 to Ride as well--goblins are famous worg riders, after all--and I think we have ourselves a paragon class.

Samb
2009-07-03, 08:15 PM
Just a comment on pairO'dice's maenad paragon class: +2 to INT is useless, since wilder is their favored class +2 on CHR would be much better.