View Full Version : 5th Edition

Zeta Kai
2009-06-20, 08:41 PM
The premise of this thought experiment is simple:

If D&D 5E were released tomorrow, what would you want to see in it?

This is essentially the same asking "What would your ideal D&D be like?". Which isn't terribly dissimilar from asking about house rules, I guess.

To facilitate a more structured, productive framework to this query, I'll posit the following potential categories:

Which races?
Which classes?
Which bonuses?
Which skills?
Which feats?
Which items?
Which spells?
What kind of combat system?
What kind of magic system?
Which monsters?
Which planes?
Which gods?
Which alignments?
Which quirks or other odd rules?
What would you keep?
What would you throw away?

2009-06-20, 08:43 PM
Tarrasque! And portable holes combining with bags of holding to form rifts through planar space.

2009-06-20, 08:45 PM
All conflict would be resolved via dance-off.

Also, magical ponies would be a player race.

Aron Times
2009-06-20, 08:51 PM
4E is my ideal D&D.


Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-20, 08:54 PM
ToB as the basis for combat, XPH as the basis for magic.

2009-06-20, 08:58 PM
ToB as the basis for combat, XPH as the basis for magic.

This and the Great Wheel as the default cosmology. Everything in the default (generic) setting;s Prime would be tied to planar politics.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 09:03 PM
Rather than listing specifics (which would take forever), let me just post a recipe for my ideal D&D:
Start with 2e (base 2e, not Player Options).
Replace THAC0 with BAB.
Replace the various saves with Fort-Ref-Will.
Replace nonweapon proficiencies with skills.
Replace the 2e Complete Psionics Handbook with the 3e Expanded Psionics Handbook plus the good 1/8 of 3e Complete Psionic.
Use the 3e monsters-and-PCs-built-the-same-way system.
Implement 3e multiclassing...somehow.
Implement feats.
Roll kits, alternate class features, and PrCs together into 3-level mini-classes which are called "kits" but have (easy) prerequisites.
Replace subraces by splitting racial benefits into inherent traits (elf vision, dwarf magic resistance) and cultural traits (elf weapon proficiency, dwarf stonecunning), then simply having 1st-level-only feats that replace some of those features with some subrace features.
Use the Planescape cosmology, minus the "connects to every other setting" stuff.
Give martial types plenty of selectable class features (including some features selectable by any martial class, kind of like a martial-only feats system).
Expand priest spheres so they're about as focused as 3e domains (but without the stupidly-specific ones like Scalykind).
Make various other minor tweaks that I can't think of at the moment but that I'd remember as soon as I came across the 2e or 3e rule in question that irritates me.

2009-06-20, 09:04 PM
the Great Wheel as the default cosmology. Everything in the default (generic) setting;s Prime would be tied to planar politics.
Yes! Planar politics are a must.

As for me, I'd like to see the alignment system actually taken into consideration in the default setting. I want to see a world that actually takes account of what happens where perspectives are real, tangible things, not just concepts. This isn't very popular, but I'd like to see it.

Also, I can't help but think that you are trolling for ideas or opinions on something, Zeta. You and afro only really make threads in Roleplaying Games when you want something. :smallwink: Not complaining, just curious.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 09:09 PM
Also, I can't help but think that you are trolling for ideas or opinions on something, Zeta.

Given the proliferation of edition wars, I wouldn't call it "trolling," myself. :smalleek:

You and afro only really make threads in Roleplaying Games when you want something. :smallwink: Not complaining, just curious.

Indeed; if there's a scheme behind this, do tell. My "ideal D&D recipe" is a summary of some of the stuff I'm doing for a 3e revamp project, so if the awesometastic Zeta-afro duo is plotting something of similar scope, well....

2009-06-20, 09:11 PM
ToB as the basis for combat, XPH as the basis for magic.

Indeed. The magic would have +1 caster level per 2 levels in non-casting classes as well, like initiators do.

2009-06-20, 09:12 PM
I'm just gonna' copy and paste, please excuse the excessive capitalization.
ANALYZE [Appraise, Decipher Script]
CONCENTRATION [Part Auto-Hypnosis]
ENDURANCE [Endurance Feat, Con checks, part Auto-Hypnosis]
Sense Motive
Wilderness Lore [Survival, Knolwedge Nature]

Which feats?
More general feats, racial feats, class-specific feats, more weapon-specific feats, feats based on a mechanic similar to Psionic Focus,

Which items?
Ah, so many! Anything fun: flying brooms, decanters of endless water, cauldrons, a good selection of weapons and armors and equipment...

Which spells?
So many to choose, but I think if you keep spell schools you ought to make the make a bit more sense. Like, make the lines between the schools thicker.

What kind of combat system?
Quick as you can get it. I'd like it to be somewhat flashy, actually, like Tome of Battle. I'm also a big fan of the way Mutants and Masterminds does Toughness and damage.

What kind of magic system?
Not Vancian. I don't care what it is, recharge, spell points, what, as long as it isn't Vancian.

Which monsters?
As many as you can, and but it doesn't matter how many as long as there's fluff to read!

Which planes?
I'd more prefer a guide on creating your own multiverse, with possible examples being the mythological cosmologies.

Which gods?


Which alignments?

None of them.

Which quirks or other odd rules?

Weapon Group Proficiencies, AC Defense Bonuses, Defenses (as long as you change saves from 4E somehow), not calling it AC, Action Points (but with more options than "take an extra action"), less classes with more options

What would you keep?

A standardized leveling method BUT not necessarily with so many attack abilities (class dependent), XP on monsters rather than by encounter level,

What would you throw away?

All of the grappling rules so far.

2009-06-20, 09:13 PM
Given the proliferation of edition wars, I wouldn't call it "trolling," myself. :smalleek:
"Trolling" has many meanings. I trust Zeta and afro can tell which one I am using. :smallwink:

Indeed; if there's a scheme behind this, do tell. My "ideal D&D recipe" is a summary of some of the stuff I'm doing for a 3e revamp project, so if the awesometastic Zeta-afro duo is plotting something of similar scope, well....
Indeed. I know that much of this is likely going towards VUACS, but I'm still greatly curious. :smallamused:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 10:10 PM
"Trolling" has many meanings. I trust Zeta and afro can tell which one I am using. :smallwink:

I know it does, but on another forum the last poster I saw use "trolling for ideas" got a temp ban, so....


Two things I forgot to mention:

1) You can buy low-power items and any charged items, but higher-level magic items aren't purchaseable; make them yourself, or find them, but anything you can't get with a 3.0 wish (15k or thereabouts) can't be had for mere gold.

2) Weapons are 3e-ized, but use 3.0 sizes instead of 3.5 light/one hand/two hands and have weapon groups instead of simple/martial/exotic.

2009-06-20, 10:18 PM
The Unisystem Game Rules logo on the cover.

2009-06-20, 10:26 PM
Every pictured playable race and class is shown with monocles.

2009-06-20, 10:32 PM
I know it does, but on another forum the last poster I saw use "trolling for ideas" got a temp ban, so....
That's... insane. If the MODS can't use a thesaurus, then damn. :smallannoyed:

In any case, I do agree with your point about magic items (which is how I tend to run my games, actually).

2009-06-20, 11:02 PM
Indeed. The magic would have +1 caster level per 2 levels in non-casting classes as well, like initiators do.

No. It was a very silly rule, and made no sense.

2009-06-20, 11:12 PM
Which races?
Any really. As long as they are balanced. Also I don't like having LA+ races. I hate not being able to roll an Aasimar at level 1.

Which classes?
The more the merrier! However, I would do all caster classes like the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer or something along those lines, it's the only way I see of keeping the casters in line with the other classes, since every supplement they get out gives them new spells to use and a higher chance of having a killer combo.

Which bonuses?
As little as possible! Profane lol. Seriously I'd keep Enhancement, Natural, Size, Armor, Shield, Racial. Maybe circumstance.

Which skills?
Xallace had the right idea.

Which feats?
Kill those damned feat chains!! They'd have to be like Pathfinder, but a step more. Ex: Skill Focus gives +2 at level 1, +4 at lvl 5, +6 at level 10, etc. Same with Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization, you get the idea. Feats would have to "level up" as your character level up so there's no useful at level 2 but useless at level 10 feats.

Which items?
As many as possible :D

Which spells?
I don't know which ones I'd keep specifically, but I know I'd remove things like Gate, Polymorph, Wish, Time Stop, etc. I'd also make Teleport jump a shorter distance so it doesn't become the main way of transport for PCs.

What kind of combat system?
It's been said but it needs to go fast and be as simple as possible. I haven't experienced a lot, but I like nWoD's system.It's really unified.

What kind of magic system?
Kill Vancian. I'd use something the likes of Sorcerer/Warlock/Beguiler.

Which monsters?
I have no idea =/. But I like the idea of having XP on the actual monster's stats rather than per encounter.

Which planes?
The basic cosmology, the one described in the DMG3.5

Which gods?
Meh, I don't really care.

Which alignments?
Get rid of them? Or at least don't use them as a requirement for a class.

Which quirks or other odd rules?
I like the Free/Immediate/Swift/Move/Standard/Full Round Actions.

What would you keep?
Feats, Prestige Classes, Skill system, "Monster built the same way as PCs" system, Saves and Abilities.

What would you throw away?
I don't know. Or I can't think of something...

Also, I said it in an other post, but spells and abilities durations should be easier to track down. It may not be realistic, but I'd love a system where Mage Armor last for "One dungeon" or "One Battle", there'd have to be a limit to how many different durations there could be, but the idea is there.

2009-06-20, 11:30 PM
a system simmilar to 2nd and 1st edtion in that they are less focused on meta-gaming and more on roleplay with a limited point buy system (instead of LA you spend a cirten amount of points to show that u are a race that is more awshome than the next or you can improve stats, gain psionics or magical powers) and built in psionics that make sense!

2009-06-20, 11:54 PM
Which races?

Humans. WE shall inherit the earth!

Which planes?
Planescape cosmology.

Which gods?
Athena, Lathander, Ilmater, Tempus, Hextor or Bane, Cyric, Kurtulmak, MağlubiyetOK; gotta keep goblins and kobolds then.

Which alignments?
All of them.

What would you throw away?
Dragons. Hate effing dragons.
And dungeon crawling. Despise dungeons, too.

Which monsters?
Gelatinous Cube. Can't believe I forgot that.

2009-06-20, 11:55 PM
Dragons. Hate effing dragons.
And dungeon crawling. Despise dungeons, too.

Your ideal game is called "and" ?

2009-06-21, 12:28 AM
Your ideal game is called "and" ?

I prefer "&" myself. More visually striking.

2009-06-21, 12:37 AM
I can see n working, seeing I always type DnD anyway. Can't be bothered to press shift.

2009-06-21, 12:42 AM
I'd really like to see the "+"s go away from magic items. To me, a +1 Axe isn't that interesting as a magic item; just a necessity to continue being on the same level with the stat growth of monsters. It doesn't make my equipment feel "magical". A Decanter of Endless Water feels "magical". Hell, even a quarterstaff that, if placed standing up, never falls over, would feel more magical than another +1 to AC. Flaming/Frost/etc is fine, though.

This would really help with PCs feeling more "heroic" rather than merely your equipment feeling heroic, and you happen to be carrying it around.

I really liked the way in 4th edition that they delineated "tiers". In 3.5, you occasionally get someone complaining that the fighter is doing something unrealistic at level 15, you then point at the wizard who just replaced someone's torso with flaming bears by being really really smart, and they can say "well, that's just the difference between the classes".

If you have say, Heroic tier where everyone is more or less mundane, and then Epic tier where fighters can actually accomplish incredible feats like ripping someone's arms off, using them as a helicopter to fly over a gap, and then flinging them through solid stone to decapitate the ogres hiding behind the outcropping over there by being really really strong (kind of like how the wizard would have disintegrated his arms, flown over the gap, and incinerated the ogres by being really really smart), then its harder to complain. You can just tell them to get the hell back to their sissy Heroic tier.

2009-06-21, 12:45 AM
I have only one request: fix the increasingly outdated abilities. Wisdom and charisma haven't made sense since 2nd edition (and even then, wisdom was a little iffy). Make eight or nine abilities, and distinguish sensory acuity from willpower from personal magnetism.

2009-06-21, 01:03 AM
2e feel, 3e freedom. 4e nothing.

The Witch-King
2009-06-21, 01:42 AM
I'd want to see some kind of lizardman/lizardfolk race as a standard Player Race option. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Orcs too. They wouldn't have to be player races in the "default background" but I'd like to have ready to go rules for such characters since I like them so much.

I'd also want to see a magic system that wasn't focused on doing damage. Spellcasters can warp reality with their spells--let the weapon wielders do the brunt of the fighting and everyone has something to do. A wizard or cleric should be able to influence the outcome of a fight--they just shouldn't be able to do a lot of straight up direct damage when that's all a fighter can do. I liked that especially about the wizard in the second Conan film--he could a wide variety of things but he left buttkicking to the warriors.

I wouldn't mind a section on technology so that even if we didn't use it in the campaign--if we wanted to use steampunk tech or run a fantasy game in the far future, we'd have the rules and basic weapons and equipment right there available to us from the very beginning.

I'd like to see a restructured Cleric class where it was something you sort of put together out of several options and could choose between building a Cleric who was a robe-wearing spellcaster who rarely picked up a weapon and a guy who was a full armored wearing paladin buttkicker type.

I'd also want a magic system where wizards and sorcerers HAD to specialize and didn't have a choice. It would provide more flavor to their characters and limit their cosmic universe crushing abilities somewhat.

I wouldn't mind an expansion of the Domain system to provide clerics a more distinctive array of spells based on the domains of their gods, something akin to wizardly specialization but Domain based.

There may already be something like it out there--but I'd want to see a cleric type character who's powers were based in his ability to summon elemental spirits, like a MMORPG shaman.

Oh--and I think I'd like for most humanoids to be classed as neutral rather than good or evil. I never really liked the whole "all Drow are evil", "all orcs are born evil so we have to kill the children cause they'll just grow up evil..." thing. Just let the eternal warfare between races be a racism thing.

I would enjoy a "default setting" where the war between Elves and Dwarves was recent and not in ancient antiquity. That struggle is never made any use of that I've noticed. It would be cool to see Elven rangers sneaking through a forest trying to get a drop on a troop of Dwarven crossbowmen.

And just for the heck of it--I'd also like to see a "default setting" where the Elements weren't Air, Earth, Fire and Water (or the 5 Chinese elements either) but some other entirely new ones like Shadow or something.

A baseline "builds it out of components class" included in the basic rules so I could use it as a gnome tinker/steampunk inventor/starship engineer/alchemist type as needed.

And since I'm just asking for the moon anyway--several fantastic mounts: riding lizards, riding turtles, giant ostriches, giant spider mounts, etc. with prices and stats in the basic book.

2009-06-21, 01:44 AM
2e feel, 3e freedom. 4e nothing.

I agree, although I've never played 2nd Edition myself.

My ideal 5th Edition would essentially be 3.5 Edition rereleased and 4th Edition completely forgotten. Oh, and reduce Elminister's power level to about 1st level Kobold Commoner and all shall be perfect.

2009-06-21, 01:58 AM
I wouldn't change much about edition 3.5 (which I see as better as it is more customisable). Change all normal spellcasting classes with vancian spellcasting in psionic-like spellpoint, make Tome of Magic Binders core and turn martial classes into Tome of Battle like classes. Personally I think 4e went to far in that combat feels even more like a "press this button"-game in that it is very repetitive, more so than 3.5.

Now, what classes would I place in the first player handbook? Wizard, Sorceror (fused thematically somewhat with a psion), Binder, Cleric (without armor), Paladin (with a code of conduct and honour system, a bit like in Oriental Adventures), Rogue/Ranger mixed into one class named the Swashbuckler, Monk (with focus on Martial arts and special ToB abbilities, more flashy than the regular martial classes get) and Fighter.

I would do away with races and replace them with a small point-buy system in which you can choose your own special abilities (or in which DM's can create their own races, balanced). I'd include exampels for HUmans, Elves, Dwarves and Thri-kreen.

I'd maybe change the skill system, but don't know how yet, maybe returning to 2.0 edition for that.

I'd make crafting magical items actually doable and a part of the game, without it costing XP.

I like minions and the xp-per-monster-thing. It makes things more easy.

2009-06-21, 03:51 AM
The premise of this thought experiment is simple:

If D&D 5E were released tomorrow, what would you want to see in it?
Start with D&D 3.5e, fix the system, add what works in d20 Modern, include the good ideas from 4th edition, and throw in kits from 2nd edition when possible. Lightly season, bake at 450 until golden brown.

No, seriously. I have a lot of things I'd like to do for a "perfect" D&D system. Please, if you're interested further, feel free to PM me back.

Massive spoilers to reduce post size.

Which races?
All of them.

Ideally, the system would combine racial paragons, monster levels, level adjustment and challange rating into one system. An Elven Paragon class, for example, would act like a spellsword for elves only, allowing them to advance as both a fighter and magic user. Conversely, the Mummy would have a large number of levels; a "Level 1 Mummy" would be about as strong as the starting races, while a "Level 8 Mummy" would be the standard Mummy in the Monster Manual, and a "Level 16 Mummy" would be equilivant to a Mummy Lord.

Perhaps it's being a bit too idealistic: petrifying gaze medusas or death wailing banshees may never fit in such a system. However, until I see it with my own eyes, I'll stick with the ideals, and enjoy the throught of being able to play a balanced and perfectly useable Gelatinous Cube/Soulknife/Monk.

Which classes?
The base classes in PHB sound like a good place to start. 2nd edition kits would be a nice way to expand, as I feel there are far too many "base" classes wandering around D&D 3.5e. What is the difference between a Fighter, a Knight, and a Samurai anyways? Obviously, this would include fixing said PHB classes, as a Fighter who just gets a collection of feats isn't terribly interesting in itself.

Prestige classes, yes, preferably similar to the way Advanced classes worked in d20 Modern - as branching of the main classes. Prerequisites should be lessened, dropped, or changed into something else entirely - a "Mageknight" prestige class should be enterable by both a mage and a knight, not solely by a multiclassing gish.

Which bonuses?
Ability, Armor, Shield, Dodge, Masterwork, Feat, Circumstance/Combat Advantage. Perhaps Synergy, Luck, and Sacred/Profane. I don't see a need for dozens of different types, especially when many mimic others or are just there to inflate the numbers.

Which skills?
Acrobatics (Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble)
Arcana (Spellcraft: Arcane, Kno: Arcana)
Athletics (Climb, Jump)
Engineering (Disable Device, Open Lock, Kno: Archeticture)
Insight (Handle Animal, Sense Motive)
Nature (Survival, Track, Kno: Nature)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot)
Religion (Spellcraft: Divine, Kno: Religion)
Slight of Hand
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)
Streetwise (Gather Information, Kno: Local)

Background skills would be broader but likely apply to less situations. Craft, Perform, and Profession would become wrappen into Background skills.

Languages would be a skill. It could be rolled just like a skill, generally for something like Decipher Script, but could also act like Bluff to send a message.

Skills would be like 4th edition: either you're trained or not. Perhaps not an identical system, though. Having a bonus equal to your level from trained/half your level for untrained would mimic the BAB system.

This obviously isn't quite complete; some skills like Slight of Hand are out of place (perhaps fold into BAB/Quick Draw feat?), while others like Forgery aren't properly represented.

Which feats?
Kill feat trees. All they do is waste feats that could otherwise be used for interesting new stuff.

Kill combat-requirement feats. By this, I mean stuff like Improved Disarm: something you need in order to disarm an opponent. They aren't bad to just provide a bonus, but disarming should be an option for people in general.

Make feats more like 4th edition: providing bonuses and capabilities, not just the potential for bonuses and capabilities. Well, maybe not quite like 4th edition.

Which items?
As many as possible, especially the wonderous items. Some of the best stuff you can find are wonderous items.

Get rid of the ability score-boosters, or revert them to their 2nd edition versions, where they gave a set score when worn. +6 Belts of Strength are part of the 3.5e power spiral problem.

Which spells?
Most of the lower level spells are good, as most of the brokenness goes away when a CR 20 Balor no longer has a -2 Balance check.

Fix the more broken spells, like Polymorph. Make spells like Glitterdust or Ray of Enfeeblement a bit less dominating. Take a cue from 4th edition, and include utility functions into damaging spells.

Drop the higher spell levels. Seriously, almost every single 8th and 9th level spell is a higher power copy of lower level spell. I'm wondering if you could squeeze the wizard and cleric lists down into 5 spell levels.

What kind of combat system?
4th edition style, minus the Powers wackiness. Specifically, the Standard + Move + Minor actions. It makes things more dynamic, more interesting, and less "I attack again." Just give all classes something good to do with their Standard actions.

What kind of magic system?
Psudo-Vancian for INT casters, spontaneous for WIS casters, auras for CHA casters. Power Points for Psionics, because Psionics are awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Which alignments?
Take a cue from World of Darkness, Muntants and Masterminds, and Mouse Guard: make alignment a roleplay incentive, not a harness. All three of these systems have in-game rewards for playing to their character's "personality". Players seem to like doing stuff with Action Points, so that sounds like a good way to encourage Chaotic PCs to have spur-of-the-moment ideas, or Good PCs to be charitable.

Which quirks or other odd rules?
And here is the big one. :smallamused: Just a few suggestions.

- Get rid of +1 bonuses on weapons and armor. The add to system bloat, and force a WBL onto the party. They also encourage (directly or indirectly) the MagiMart economy, which really should be a decision up to the DM. Removing this helps keep scary creatures scary: a werewolf is still a threat to a high-level party, not just another enemy to get carved up with their +5 killemall sword that overcomes its defenses. Conversely, the starting hero can be swinging around his ancestral Celestial Bronze Demonsbane longsword at level 1, and it won't overbalance the campaign while he's fighting orcs and harpies.

- Cap stats between 3 and 20. This may seem unnecessarily restrictive - and perhaps it is - but the point is to keep the ability bonuses from spiraling out of control. No offense, but in 3.5e at times it feels like your character is useless if they didn't start with 18+ in their primary stat. With this, it doesn't matter if the start with 15 or 20; they'll have the same bonus when they hit lv.20. On the other hand, this can allow more bonuses to ability scores to be handed out; adding +1 to two scores every 4 levels would probably work out, and solve MAD for many classes.

- Remove ability score adjustments from classes. A brief look through this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115109) by Djinn_In_Tonic makes it clear to me that +2 STR really isn't necessary in defining a class; making a race deal more damage on a hit, or a longer reach, or powerful build is far more defining, even at later levels. Well, apparently. However, it's better than just choosing a race based on their stat bonuses, knowing that everything else about the race will be moot when the character is level 15.

- Attack with a weapon is d20 + base attack + ability modifier + situation bonuses, such as masterwork weapon (+2) or favorable conditions (+2 for flanking). Rolling a skill is d20 + skill level + ability modifier + situation bonuses, such as masterwork equipment (+2) or favorable conditions (+2 for good lighting). Casting a spell would be the same method.

- Multiclassing would work. For example, a level 1 wizard/level 19 fighter would be able to cast spells as effectively as a level 20 wizard, but is just stuck with the sucky level 1 wizard spells.

I'm sure there's a number of thing I didn't mention, but I think that's good for starters. :smallwink:

2009-06-21, 04:17 AM
You know what I would like to see for 5E? A finished product with all of the ****ing content, that's what. With 3E you had a first draft published and then replaced with the real game a few years later, and 4E is apparently making you buy each half of each core rulebook separately at full price. I can't wait to see what scam they're going to pull for 5E; I'm betting on a monthly subscription.

2009-06-21, 10:12 AM
I'm betting on a monthly subscription.

If we're lucky. After DDI insider, I fear they'll come with something much worst.

5e is on our hands, because WOTC will not make it, but "Second game with D&D on it's name because otherwise it wouldn't sell half as much".

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-21, 10:32 AM
The Unisystem Game Rules logo on the cover.

You win so hard the very earth shatters before your win.

Though I would rather another health system. From what I hear, RuneQuest has a pretty good one.

Also, I like how cnsvnc used Mağlubiyet instead of Maglubiyet (since the former means "defeat" and the latter is the name of the Goblin God).

2009-06-21, 10:40 AM
2e feel, 3e freedom. 4e nothing.

Agreed. Can't put it any better than that.

2009-06-21, 10:42 AM
3rd edition that works as the rulebooks say it should. Just reduce the power level on high levels, so that low-level/HD characters/monsters stand a chance against high-leveled PCs and NPCs, the latter not reaching idiotically absurd levels of power. Everything else can stay, except Psionics, which can be removed entirely for all I care. What definetly has to stay is Vancian spellcasting.

2009-06-21, 10:50 AM
Take 3.0. Remove the following major flaws:
- Wealth=power. Necessity of having +X items to remain relevant is just a side effect of that. CRPG-like system which assumes that PCs spend all of their money on magical bling must go.
- Sorcery trumps swords. High-level fighty characters are nowhere near mundane anyway, so go ahead and admit it, and then give them abilities to sense invisible, resist mind control, perform incredible feats of mobility and athletics and do other stuff that characters of superheroic level do all the time in all mediums. Without begging local spellcasters or covering themselves in above-mentioned magical bling. Skills must be made actually useful at mid-high level as well. Oh, and while we're at it, the skill list needs to be trimmed, by combining too-narrow skills.
- The setting is populated with NPCs of level 5 and below, who are slapped with arbitrarily high level numbers for the purpose of confrontation with PCs only. This arises from the fact that pre-4E gameplay (and characters' ability to affect the world) changes radically several times between levels 1 and 20, but the game does not admit it and practically ignores the impact of mid-high level magic on, well, everything in the world. (4E, on the other, hand, includes arbitrary tiers, which didn't even mean anything, because 4E gameplay is supposed to stay the same.) In other words, we need heroic (currently levels 1-6 in 3.X), superheroic (level 7 to 12-14) and godlike (above that) tiers; the authors must understand that things work quite differently in each tier: the system must explain this clearly to players; classes must get tier-appropriate abilities at corresponding levels; and the default setting must be built to accomodate all of the tiers and to provide at least some explanation, why godlike-tier people don't rampage around, blowing up pseudo-medieval kingdoms and barbarian tribes.
EDIT: No, "they are too busy countering each other" is not an explanation, when they live the next door from Joe the 1st level adventurer and constantly meddle in politics on all levels.

A few less important wishes:
- About a dozen of broken spells must be fixed or removed.
- Replace half-orcs with orcs as a PHB race. And half-elves need to go as well. Remove racial +- to abilities, at least from the standard list of races, as this invariably pigeonholes races into certain classes. As about the "more powerful" races - replace or at least massively rework the broken ECL system, so it won't horribly punish PCs for playing them.

2009-06-21, 10:56 AM
My ideal D&D?

1. Start with 3.5
2. Add a consolidated skill system.
3. Add the Tier fluff from 4th edition. You have no idea how many times did I hear "Characters of level XY are so unrealistic! They can defeat whole armies by themselves!" and had to explain that characters of level higher than ten are pretty much demigods.
4. Remove the gamebreakers and force for developers to think. It just seems to me that a lot of material has been sold on the "If you buy this book, your characters are going to be soooo overpowered" premise. Or maybe they were just being ignorant. Either way, I should be able to trust the developers that the material from the book is a-okay, instead of having to check everything for balance myself.
5. ToB is default. To quell the cries of "The mechanics are okay, but the anime fluff is so not cool." 'westernize' the system.
6. Related to 5 - every class should have a variety of different options to do. Progress should not just mean increased numbers and doing the same thing at level 15 as you were doing at 1.
7. Related to 6. Offer different mechanics for different classes, even if it's difficult to balance. A caster and a fighter should feel extremely different mechanically.
8. Add an Exalted-style "awesome" bonuses and support for many cinematic actions.
9. Magic items should be the cherry on top of the abilities that the characters already have instead of a requirement.

That's pretty much what I remember of the top of my head.

2009-06-21, 11:18 AM
Core Classes:
Combat Specialists:
Fighter, Marshal
Skill Specialists:
Factotum, Truenamer (Truenamer completely revamped)
Divine Specialists:
Cleric (with prayerbook as Archivist)
Arcane Specialists:
Sorceror (With Pacts based on dragon pacts, heritage as a class feature, and reserve feats instead of core metamagic. Lots of opportunities to put your character in a more wizardly direction or a more warlocky direction)

Other considerations:
Animal companions can be acquired
Sneak attack can be picked up by a fighter, marshal, or sorceror following a different feat tree. (Sorcerors using rays and touch attacks instead of weapons)
Truenamers might have a more Unearthed Arcana incantation style of truespeaking, ending up as normal gish skill monkeys who can occasionally pound out arcane or divine-like spells by using a variety of skill checks. (For example, a truenamer might utter a Control Weather by making knowledge (planes), truespeak, and survival (to predict the weather so you know what to control) checks.

The other base classes might be added outside of core. Things like the Wizard might take up an entire book expanding the workings of arcane magic. They'd have a huge, spell compendium sized list of spells to call upon, and be more complex than the sorceror, but have less raw power. Rangers and druids would show up in their own nature-based book. Monks are back to oriental adventures. Rogues and scoundrels of all kinds would show up in the new Complete Scoundrel etc.

Mechanically, it would be based on 3.5 but only after streamlining the list of skills, redrawing the lines between feats and class features, picking up some of the ideas of reserve points and healing surges.

Bell curve rolls (using 3d6 and applying bonuses in place of a d20) could be a core mechanic, used by fighters and marshals for attack rolls, factotum and truenamers instead of taking 10, clerics and sorcerors for saves and caster level checks.

So um, I basically just explained a homebrew campaign of 3.5, didn't I?

2009-06-21, 12:39 PM
Also, I like how cnsvnc used Mağlubiyet instead of Maglubiyet (since the former means "defeat" and the latter is the name of the Goblin God).
Maglubiyet is Mağlubiyet, it's just English lacks the proper letter in their alphabet. Yet another bit of blatant racism and discrimination against the "fodder races".

And for sauntering vaguely towards the topic:
Rework everything until the game runs on a single d20. Reduce the clutter on the table. I dislike polyhedra as well.I think I got too much hate towards DnD in general.
And lastly, negative energy=!Evil

2009-06-21, 03:32 PM
2e feel, 3e freedom. 4e nothing balance and simplicity.

In other words, completely impossible, as balance and freedom are antithetical (the more options you have, the greater the ability to put them together in unintended ways to produce an unbalanced result).

But it's nice to dream.

Oh - and make magic actually cost something to use. I rather like LOTR/Shadowrun/True20/LoneWolf's idea that magic is actively fatiguing to use (either stun or real damage to the body). You're manipulating reality for gods sake - and the reaction after a 9th level spell should be of a similar magnitude to the events immediately following Governor Tarkin's words, "You may fire when ready, Commander".

Last - explicitly say that the "magic item shop" phenomenon is playing the game wrong. Make it flat-out illegal.

2009-06-21, 03:35 PM
Make Giant Dire Squirrel a mount/animal companion for the ranger.

N'deed...(copy write Judson Lee)

2009-06-21, 03:42 PM
Far from complete:

Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings or Gnomes, Kobolds, Orcs as core races.

3E Basic Classes with the following changes:

Clerics don't wear armor.



More tomorrow, no time now.

2009-06-21, 06:40 PM
I'd want Gnomes to no longer be a joke. I ran a game where the deault gnome fluff was that their like Native Americans.

2009-06-22, 01:46 AM
All conflict would be resolved via dance-off.

Just as an aside, I once saw an RPG design that was a thought experiment along the lines of "What would RPGs be like if they had grown, not out of tactical wargames, but out of Hindu dance?"

The conflict resolution mechanic wasn't quite dance, just the hand gestures, but that's about as close as you're going to get.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-22, 04:31 AM
Which races?
For Core: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling. Elves should be fae (I like to use "fae" instead of "fey"). Dwarves should actually be part organic, part inorganic, and entirely incompatible with humans.

No Dragonborn, Aasimar/Deva or Tiefling on the PHB; a treatise of the "monstrous" races should be on the Monster Manual under "Monstrous Races": Aasimar (or Daeva, if you want; as Outsider), Draconian (yeah, the Dragonlance draconians!; as Dragonblooded), Gnome (and an elemental, too; not that "lawn gnome" turd), Goblin/Hobgoblin/Bugbear (demihuman), Kobold (demihuman, and not lizard looking but dog-looking), Orc (demihuman), Salamander (also an elemental), Sylph (yet another elemental), Tiefling (as Outsider), Undine (guess what, YET another elemental).

Which classes?
Fighter (mostly bonus feats and ToB maneuvers), Priest (as if Cloistered Cleric, with Domains), Rogue (with skill tricks), Wizard Thaumaturge (with spell point system), Warlock (blend of 3.5 and 4E mechanics)

Barbarian, Druid, Knight, Sorcerer, Swashbuckler, Tempest, etc. should be like 2E kits of main classes (specialties). Bard, Blackguard, Monk, Paladin, Ranger should be more specialized kits off combinations of two classes (not like the Mystic Theurge, more a la The Dark Spire with their combined classes, which are pure genius)

Which bonuses?
As D&D 3.5: Morale, Competence, Circumstance, Racial, Enhancement, Insight, Sacred or Profane, (unnamed). Perhaps one or two more. Same rules (same name bonus not stacks, overlaps)

Which skills?
Acrobatics (Balance, Tumble; keyed off Dexterity)
Arcana (Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), Use Magic Device; keyed off Intelligence)
Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swim; keyed off Constitution)
Bluff (includes Innuendo; keyed off Charisma)
Craft (any; keyed off Int)
Concentration (keyed off either Int or Wis)
Disguise (keyed off Charisma)
Heal (keyed off Int or Wis)
Intimidate (keyed off Str or Cha)
Legerdemain (Escape Artist, Forgery, Sleight of Hand, some uses of Use Rope; keyed off Int or Dex)
Nature (Spellcraft, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Handle Animal; keyed off Wisdom)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot; keyed off Wis)
Perform (all kinds of instruments; keyed off Int or Cha)
Religion (Spellcraft, Knowledge (religion), Use Magic Device; keyed off Wis)
Ride (keyed off Dexterity)
Skulduggery (Disable Device, Open Lock; keyed off Int)
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently; keyed off Dexterity)
Streetwise (Gather Information, Knowledge (local); keyed off Int or Cha)

Mostly I'd go the path Xallace and erikun mentioned. Also, I'd consider working some skills off ST system, whichever can't be easily duplicated on D&D already. Hopefully not missing any.

Which feats?
The feats as current aren't so bad; just that the Improved feats should bring more bang for the buck. Mostly, Weapon Focus branch would consist solely of WF, WS, Melee or Ranged WM, Slash/Blunt/Piercing specific feats, S/B/P enhancers, Weapon Supremacy: all of the above tiered. TWF branch also tiered, and mostly limited to TWF, TW Defense, Dual Strike, TW Rend; all tiered as well, no penalty. Power Attack is fine as is. Dodge branch should be tiered, and consume Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, and be mostly defensive. Spring Attack turned into a new feat branch, and probably ending in Pounce. Metamagics mostly as-is. No Item Creation feats.

Which items?
As original game. DM should already be capable of controlling the Christmas Tree effect.

Which spells?
Divine for Clerics and Cleric specialties. Nature for Druid and Druid-based classes. Arcane for Thaumaturges and Thaumaturge specialties.

What kind of combat system?
d20 system. Of course. 3.5 edition for extra taste.

What kind of magic system?
Spell point system. All mages learn spells; no praying or spellbook-based spells. Spellbooks may be considered. Vancian casting as optional rule

Which monsters?
Get one of the many Medieval bestiaries. Draw from there. IN either case, anything that's not ridiculous (like VORPAL BUNNIES). Except Dragons, Celestials, Devils, Demons, Inevitables, Slaadi and Undead; those are to be treated in special books (Draconomicon, Angelic Codex, Fiendish Codex, Fiendish Folio, Archives of Mechanus, Book of Chaos, Necronomicon)

Which planes?
The Universe (Material Plane), Ethereal Plane, Astral Plane, Arcadia (Feymarch), Spirit Plane, Elemental Planes, Mechanus, Heaven (Celestia and the Positive Energy Plane as ocean, perhaps Purgatory), Lower Planes (Limbo, Pandemonium, Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Negative Energy Plane as ocean), the Outer Limits (Abyss, the Far Realm)

Which gods?
At least one racial god (Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh), at least one per class, at least one per alignment, dragon gods (with Bahamut as Paladine and Tiamat as Takhisis). Not so sure about this one, tho. Though, I'd keep Heironeous and Hextor for the heck of it.

Which alignments?
All. From Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil. Though, I'd also add Nature, Demeanor, Virtue and Vice (I'm blatantly stealing this from ST system once again.

Which quirks or other odd rules?
Vitality (HP) and Wound Points (LP, like SaGa). Action Points, but you use Wound Points instead. Healing Surges also based off Wound Points (like in SaGa Frontier II). Temporary Action Points if you follow your Virtue and deny your Vice. Make Action Points a combination of Action Points, ST's Willpower and Shadowrun's Edge. Limit to PCs and very odd NPCs only. Armor grants AC and DR.

What would you keep?
Mostly everything from 3.5, and what seems cool from 4th Edition.

What would you throw away?
Bad scaling off Hit Dice. Fighters should shine, Wizards should rely better on damaging spells and not so much on save-or-die, though the latter should also see work.

2009-06-22, 05:02 AM
My ideal for 5E: a cleaned-up and simplified Moldvay D&D/3E hybrid able to fit into ~128 pages. If it's any fatter than that you have built-in system bloat (the infamous "five minutes of fun spread over 4 hours") and need to simplify the rules further.

The game would be clear enough to be comprehensible to a smart 12-year old, but nuanced enough that gamers with decades of experience would not feel short-changed. Yes, this balance is possible. No, it isn't easy.

@v: *cookie*
@vv: Not random: 4 x 8 sheet folio signatures. Yes. Yes. Yes. 64pp is actually ideal (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/06/64-pages-of-fun.html), but 128 allows you to add extra content. :smallwink:

2009-06-22, 05:03 AM
A reprint of 1st ed?

2009-06-22, 05:26 AM
My ideal for 5E: a cleaned-up and simplified Moldvay D&D/3E hybrid able to fit into ~128 pages. If it's any fatter than that you have built-in system bloat (the infamous "five minutes of fun spread over 4 hours") and need to simplify the rules further.

Eerrr, why the random number of pages? Are you counting images? Tables? The legal disclaimers? Is there out there some formula that states that 128 pages is the ideal number for a boardgame rulesbooks I may have missed?

And please, don't simplify it. 3.X doesn't need to be simplified, it needs to be tweacked, otherwise you lose the freedom that keeps people playing it, and in that case we may as well go play 4e.

2009-06-22, 05:32 AM
For my tastes, something like a 3rd edition without the biggest imbalances (i.e. more drawbacks to spells, less effort for melees to master various techniques)
AND more a AD&D feel could be fine for me :smallsmile:

2009-06-22, 06:04 AM
My take would be base 3.5 (most importantly, the rules are more comprehensive in 3.5 than in AD&D, so it makes for a better starting point).

Which races?
This one is easy: Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs, Warforged, Changelings, Goblins, Gnome, Lizardfolk, Aasimar & Tiefling (decent-enough names for celestial- and fiendish-touched characters)

I'd probably leave Humans out of the Core if I could, if only to avoid the desire to make Humans the Tabula Rasa and all other races a derivative there-of. I'd also do a lot of Oskar-style flavouring; elves are fae, dwarves are earthborn, halflings are mostly manape-types of creatures, orcs are savage beasts but noble, Goblins are savage underhanded creatures, Gnomes are elementalish creatures from the depths of the planet with strong ties to the Gaia-essence, etc. Oh, and Elves would be faster than other races! And speed in general would be determined by your stats.

Then rules for playing monstrous classes that don't involve Level Adjustment. And still maintain the feel of the race; if I play a Medusa, I wanna be able to stone things with my gaze, if I play an Angel, I better have more than a little bit of magical prowess and flight, if I play an Earth Elemental, I better be able to glide through stone, etc. Maybe limit such abilities or something, but there's bound to be a better system than Level Adjustment without giving up what makes the races special.

Tables would be included on what creatures can breed with what and what adjustments each half gives to the subrace.
Which classes?
I'd write it mostly with 3.5 classes, as follows:
-Soldier: Pretty much Warblade with the schools reworked in flavour and abilities a bit to make them feel more "basic", and fit ordered military. Few alternatives allow you to make a swashbucklerish type, a commanderish type or such out of this same shell; all thanks to the school system. This could also cover the Martial Artist-role.
-Warrior: A more savage take on the Soldier, pretty much to Warblade what Barbarian is to Fighter; some kind of "savagery"-related mechanic - of course, with school selection, this could be rolled together with Soldier. This would also cover what's presently Ranger.
-Paladin: Every extreme alignment should have one; a warrior exemplifying his ideals with powers to match. No actual divine casting, but some divine-flavoured martial school tailored to fit Paladin's abilities, much like a Crusader with Devoted Spirit right now.
-Priest: A poorly armored, wise divine caster with a large amount of versatility (think Ardent - his Domains would pretty much define what power he holds, although having a small base list would make sense); pretty much a Cloistered Cleric with altered spell list, mostly due to me sacking Vancian Casting. Possibly offer a Warrior Priest ACF that gives up casting versatility for combat capabilities, with some maneuver access. Tons of powers against undead, outsiders, aberrations and the like.
-Mage: Pretty much what Wizard is right now, except the spell system is going to be rewritten and it'd be much more inclusive than exclusive, like Psions right now; by default you only have access to a bunch of universal spells and one specialist school. Heck, it'd probably be easiest just to replace arcane magic with psionics and call it a day. Warrior Mage should again probably be a basic alternative, with some maneuver access.
-Druid: Protector of the wilds, some kind of nature caster (I'd just stop the pretense and stop calling it divine casting when it comes from the land...), a more proficient warrior than Mage or Priest but with more single-minded casting capabilities (indeed, nature is single-minded) mostly focused around energy damage, manipulating weather, protection and summoning. Not much in terms of scrying, contacting divine sources for knowledge (talking to trees only does so much as they've only seen so much), teleporting or such. Some maneuver access to a savage school like the present Tiger Claw.
-Rogue: Covers pretty much what he does now, a skulk, an unfair fighter, a busy business man, etc. He'd work off maneuvers and with schools based off a lot of backstabbing, and such. This could cover all sorts of skill monkeys from social manipulators to treasure hunters to assassins.
-Psion: Mindwizard, specializes in mind magic and derives their power from their inner reserve of energy, as opposed to Mages, Priests and Druids (who all use outside sources). Would probably use slightly altered Psionics-set from 3.5.
-Channeler: A class that's pretty much what Psychic Warrior or Magic of Incarnum in general does right now; abilities based off of channeling magic to augment your physical prowess. Basically, instead of manipulating outside magical energies, this guy augments himself with magic. Probably has some school access too.
-Factotum: This would pretty much be the "jack-of-all-trades" class. Some divine casting, some arcane casting, lots of skills, some maneuvers. Overall, little of everything, much like the actual class.
-Artificer: Someone who makes stuff, pretty much. Mostly crafts mundane items with some prowess in enchanting them and works through items in general, much like the class in 3.5 except less broken because crafting magic items is all but abolished in this game.

Truenaming and Binding would be available too, but they'd be feat & skill-based systems for anyone instead of having focused classes. Truenames would basically be limited to research on creatures' truenames with powers bestown over that creature once you do find it out (and overall, the power to defy reality with regards to that creature).

Binding would be something anyone can dabble with, an area with its own granted abilities given at a cost. Calling a willing vestige wouldn't be hard, but yeah... And both of these areas would probably give at least arcanists some more options as far as their spell selection goes. Actually, every style (everything from maneuvers to casting) would probably offer some Truename-related offense, and some Binding-related abilities.

Psionics would probably have to be rewritten, since I pretty much just stole the present mechanics for spellcasting. Ah well, sacrifices have to be made. Still, they'd be pretty much like in 3.5 + Dreamscape (from Untapped Potential).

As far as Bards go, keep those friggin' songbirds away from D&D! Nothing personal, but I still don't see what a friggin' musician does in the field of battle. So I'd abolish them, although I might give some inspirational abilities to anyone willing to dabble with an instrument enough; probably built around the Perform-skill. Just, Bard getting arcane spells? Give me a ****ing break.
Which bonuses?
Like in 3.5; the system makes sense. Although I'd make friggin' sure, everything is typed! Oh, and less christmas trees when it's not christmas, thank you very much.
Which skills?
I'd go with the skill list Oskar suggested, although I'd also add some sorts of Control Thoughts-type skill (as a bridge between non-casters and casters), Autohypnosis (it could be rolled in with Concentration, but not with the present use of Concentration) and probably Lucid Dreaming, depending on how strongly the Dreamscape would be written into the game.

Oh, and I'd maintain Knowledges as a separate skill, mirroring booksmarts and theoretical knowledge, with probably the "Education"-feat available so everyone can pick 'em up. I think they're awesome and important. Oh, and I'd have Truenaming and Binding as skills available, with associated feats that enable you to dabble in those arts without class levels.

Skill system would probably be thusly:
-You autoadvance class skills by level. That is, you add e.g. your level (or some such number) directly to your class skills.
-You get a bunch of skill points on top of that, that enable you to max out some of your class skills, or learn non-class skills (there'd rationally be enough for both, and every character as a rule would have at least one-two non-class skills just for versatility).
-You're still capped much like before, you just get closer to the cap in all class skills without doing anything ('cause I don't believe a single level 20 Fighter can't swim) and are "forced" to get better across the globe.
Which feats?
I'd write the crappy feats out of the system and find a power level appropriate for gaining a feat every 2 levels. Then I'd add options like Truenaming and Binding in as feats.

I'd also make the feat system so that every character has a Background Feat, and gains Racial Feats as a separate progression from standard Feats. These Racial Feats make for nice ways to make Monster Races work, and to specialize your character within your Race (and to make high level characters seem like paragons of their race, as they should be).

Other than that, there'd be some feats on improving some combat styles (but you don't have to have Improved Trip to be competent in tripping), one base feat for each combat style (and you gain one as a bonus when you first start taking a warrior class) in Sword & Board, Two-Handing, Two-Weapon Fighting, One Weapon + Blocker (what TWF was in reality), One-Hander (swashbuckling-style; it's a fantasy game so it's ok), Archery, Crossbows, Throwing, Unarmed that makes you competent in that particular style. Oh, and this would enable characters proficient in multiple combat styles! Shocking, I know.

Oh yeah, shields are effective against magic. Umm, yea. And ****ing Crafting feats don't exist!
Which items?
A large number of different levels of mundane items. The most expensive mundane items should be stuff nobody but lords or dragonslayers can afford; that Hattori Hanzo sword ain't free. That Mw. weapon from a small halfling village ain't quite the same as the weapon the Master Dwarf forged in the volcano's flames in the beginning of the era and yet neither has one ounce of magic into them at that point.

Oh, and enchanting weapons is something particularly skilled smiths learn, not something Wizards do as a past-time. Sure, a magician can imbue an item with his powers, but most don't exactly learn the arts of forging and such; that's more of Artificers' territory.

Oh, and every magical item is truly impressive. They're basically what we consider artifacts now. Basic stat boosters obviously don't exist, and characters are all fine without a single piece of magical jewelry.

Oh, arcanists do tend to use items through which they channel their powers; it's not that the staff itself were magic (though it might be), but it makes for a convenient focus. They can use their power without, but it won't be quite as potent. In fact, I'd probably port over 4e's idea of implements in a way.
Which spells?
Much of what's been published in Psionics as of 3.5e, and most of the 3.5e spells reworked, reschooled, etc. Long range Teleportation wouldn't be available pre-Epic at all (just to make traveling necessary), although short range combat Teleports would of course be around. Flying would also be a bit more limited early on, although full-fledged flight around levels 10-11 would still be right there.

Oh, and Arcane casting would be limited to manipulating "field energies". That is, powers and energy fields around you would be what arcane magic derives its power from. Divine casters obviously channel their deity's power (and no, you cannot channel random energies of an ideal) and their plane's power, while Druids channel nature's power. This would leave door open for Psions that channel their personal, inner power. Some skilled channelers can mix the different power sources for great effects, but at greater cost. This would probably be based on multiclassing and feats again.
What kind of combat system?
Cross between AD&D and 3.5; what I've been working on myself. Simultaneous turns to get rid of the "I moved first so your caster is dead 'cause you're too slow to interpose 5' while I move 30'" ****. Basically, each player tells DM what he does, and DM tells what happens with Initiative-type number acting as tiebreaker to determine who does what now.
What kind of magic system?
As I've alluded to before, probably much like 3.5 Psionics. Although as the strength of 3.5 is the variety of systems, it might be worth it to keep the system "convertable" into Vancian model for worlds with Magic as a little-understood mystery rather than daily tool.
Which monsters?
All of the classics. Variety of fae of both kinds, as the other primary type of creature inhabiting this world. Then the wondorous outsiders, creatures from the Far Realms that defy logical perception, and Dragons. And of course plant creatures and oozes 'cause they belong in D&D.

We'd need the Tarrasque too; I'd make him kinda like Lavos, and one of the Abominations (that are printed in Core-rules; you can play the game however far you want with just what's printed in Core). Oh, and deities can be killed too, although not easily (way after normal campaign ends). Divine Rank rules would exist in Core rules too.
Which planes?
The Great Wheel, pretty much.
Which gods?
I'd probably be tempted to just steal a real-world mythology (maybe the Finnish folklore since people don't know it all that well!), but I'd probably default to old FR deities from way before the world was destroyed a few times.
Which alignments?
The 9 rings...err, alignments. Inambiguously explained though; alignment refers to your intent and why you do what you do. That's the only thing alignment cares about. That's the sole thing that matters to your alignment. "The way you think?"

Who cares, this isn't psychology. An ordered mind can be just as Chaotic as a chaotic mind. That has nothing to do with this. Oh, and there's a special mention of "Stupid" version of each alignment, just so players don't tend towards those. Lawful Good says "Miko".
Which quirks or other odd rules?
Some heroic characteristic. I'd be tempted to pretty much go with the same ideas Oskar presented below. Also, you can attack and lose limbs. No, it's not as simple as casting Cure Light Wounds when your hand was severed. Yes, you might be without a hand for the rest of the game. You'll get a badass hook though.

Morale would be back. Every character has a morale and if it fails, bad things happen. Negative combat success and such affects morale negatively, while positive success, commanders/commanding characters and such are a positive influence. Dragon Fear is negative, in case it need be mentioned. I'd also probably add Sanity as eldritch horrors would be a bit more rare and thus shocking.

Oh, and I'd make Criticals happen when you exceed target AC by a given number (in addition to normal high roll). This means more accurate guys deal more damage in general. Hell, I might derive damage off the difference between AC and attack roll with static weapon & str bonus (or a relative bonus for different weapons - some weapons get more of the difference, some get less) - reduces unnecessary rolling.

I'd also fix stats so that they're about equal; the 4e "Two stats per save"-system is pretty good, and adding Cha to Action Points, Str to Speed, Dex to Physical Skill Points (separated from mental skills), Wis to Sanity or so easily makes all stats somewhat relevant to everyone while still making characters with low X viable.

Oh, and I'd make multiclassing make sense; casters basically add their whole level to their "caster level" and advance spell levels faster when multiclassing (leading to same level of spells, but far less of them than singleclassed caster) while martial types use the ToB rules of adding half their non-martial levels to their IL for determining their maneuvers. This means a Soldier 10/Mage 10 is a competent character. And a Soldier 10/Warrior Mage 10 has a different orientation, but is still competent. And hell, Soldier 7/Priest 7/Rogue 6 works out just fine.

Most importantly though, an online Rules Compendium with all the relevant questions asked and rules spelled out as simply as possible with easy index and search features. Also updates if problems, typos or imbalances are found.

After few years (or when the number of questions and issues becomes so low it falls into margins), a rehashed edition would be published that does nothing but fixes all these problems, hopefully resulting in a nearly error-free edition.
What would you keep?
What I've outlined above. ToB and Psionics mostly, along with some feats and skills. Oh, and races.
What would you throw away?
Classes as written. Skills as written. Feats as written. Spells as written. Races as written. Multiclassing as written. Equipment as written...hell, I'd throw all the stuff that's written away and rewrite everything.

I'd just keep the ideas these. I think the actual work that's been done in these editions could've been done better, but the ideas are great.

RMS Oceanic
2009-06-22, 06:26 AM
I'd make many more feats that scale with level. Power Attack is the archetypal example.

Heironeous/Hextor as gods. It's nice to have an easy source of conflict.

PHB Races - Humans, Dwarves, (Half) Elves, (Half) Orcs, Halflings, Gnomes, Lizardfolk. Try to add extra options for other races in MM.

One feat at every odd numbered level.

Consolidated skill system

That's all I can think of.

2009-06-22, 06:35 AM
A revamp of Spelljammer to herald in the glorious return of the Space Swine!

But that'll only happen when pigs fly. That was a bad joke and I hate myself.

2009-06-22, 06:37 AM
A revamp of Spelljammer to herald in the glorious return of the Space Swine!

Only if the Flail Snail and the Lurker Above, Stunjelly, Trapper trinity gets updated too. :smallbiggrin:

2009-06-22, 06:39 AM
It'll be a room of doom! I just won't stop.

2009-06-22, 06:48 AM
My ideal 5th Edition would be a continuation of 4e that:

•Doesn't treat Rituals like a stepchild system. This means giving it some equal footing to powers, producing Ritual cards, lowering Ritual costs.
•Introduces more and longer narrative units similar to "Encounter", such as "Adventure". Has "Adventure-Long" effects and "Adventure-Long" concerns.
•De-Emphasizes Skill Challenges as "anything that's not combat" and better explains and integrates them into the system, as well as giving the ability to recover from a skill challenge and make it less "all or nothing."
•Removes Daily Powers, or gives them a per-encounter limit similar to Daily Magic Item and Action Point uses that encourages spending them at a pace as opposed to unloading them all at once.
•Removes the concept of Class Skills and simply gives each class a number and that's how many they can train from the big list. Give a small bonus to skills which the class "prefers" but let them take any skill.
•Has more Miss effects. Missing with ANYTHING sucks, not just Daily powers, and Miss effects would build confidence and prevent power-hoarding.
•Unifies the NPC and PC-creation paradigms rather than separates them, but at the same time caters to distinct styles of building an NPC (the mook, the 5-round foregone conclusion, the recurring villain, the villanous PC, etc).

...All of which sound like 4e houserules anyway, so I guess it's kind of a moot point. But still, it'd be interesting to see these concepts come from Wizard's of the Coast. Mostly since I think they wouldn't do any of them.

Now I guess I better leave before everyone gets upset.

2009-06-22, 07:07 AM
But that'll only happen when pigs fly.

This just inspired me in applying the Flying template on a pig for my campaing.


*Silence. Crickets can be heard. K fades away.*

2009-06-22, 07:48 AM
The sad thing is that we can expect edition 5 to come out within the next 3 years, I think.

2009-06-22, 08:19 AM
This just inspired me in applying the Flying template on a pig for my campaing.


*Silence. Crickets can be heard. K fades away.*

I love it.

2009-06-22, 08:40 AM
I think I found my perfect D&D version quite some time ago. They call it Warhammer.

2009-06-22, 08:43 AM
I'll try and propagate a bit more radical change; just because most of the suggestions were pretty much "let's return to the good ol' days", which is allright, but may be a tad biased and colored by nostalgia; so I try to actually offer an idea of D&D that tries to develop the whole system into a more modern, more flexible system, even when this means that some holy cows are slaughtered. But the holiest cows often includes the juiciest meat.

First of all, the general attitude and agenda: As I said, this is meant to be a pseudo-radical approach, and therefore it is based on a radical change of direction: This new D&D is targeted on mature, intellegent players who are able to think and evaluate critically and make up their own mind. Neither are these players treated as if creativity is a burden and prepackaged options is the most they can deal with nor are utterly and embarassingly stupid concepts and simplistic mindsets a part of the system anymore. The system doesn't try to become "darker and edgier" but "smarter and less moronic", which sometimes look the same, but really is very, very different.

The Abilities:
D&D has a fixed set of the same six abilities since pretty much forever, even though at least two of them - Wisdom anc Charisma - are pretty nebulous in their range and it is usually not very clear to which degree which ability covers which task. For this issue, there is a simple solution: Charisma is renamed into Willpower, and includes all social aspects (since these are usually the ability to control yourself and to appear decisive, and dedicated), Wisdom becomes Perception and pretty much covers all forms of recognition, from the basic five senses up to precogntion or other, similar supernatural powers.
I would also scrap Saves as an extra ability, because the difference between a Fortitude Save and a Constitution Check aren't really big enough to justify the two different abilities. All in all, thi approach is much more focused on the abilities and much less on other features.

The Species: Now, let's come to the first massive change: There are no "core" or "monster" species any more. The very idea that there are "good" and "evil" races is so embarassingly racist that it goes where it belongs: on the scrap heap of stupid ideas. The core book can include a small selection of standard species - I would suggest humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and goblins - but it should be made very clear that species aren't any better or worse than any one else, but perhaps they are more common. In addition it should be made clear that the species are very much depending on the setting they appear in and that different settings feature different people.
In addition, the Core book includes detailed and well thought-out guidelines for the creation of own species or the adjustment of existing species to an own setting.

The Background: In addition to the species, characters should have a culture that defines their upbringing, social class, environment and simply replaces different subtypes and so on, but allows for a much finer definition of the character and his or her abilities. In a way, the Character background works very similar to a 2e kit, but for species instead of classes. The background does not only add another layer to the characters to make them deeper and add versimilitude and depth to them, it also makes sure that the PC's are a product of their environment and do not exist unattacjed from it.
Like for the species, guidelines for the development of own backgrounds are included in the core book and players are motivated to come up with own backgrounds-

Classes: Again, time for a more massive change: There are only four classes, and they are only very basic and describe how easy a character can learn different aspects. The four classes are Fighter (can easily learn to excell in combat and how to deal with injuries or beat up opponents, but is very slow when learning magic), Rogue (can sneak, hide, lie and murder people in their sleep and is neither very good or bad with other fields of expertise), Spellcaster (can easily master magic, sucks in pretty much every other field), and Adventurer (can learn pretty much everything equally good or bad, and has neither any obvious strengths nor blatant weaknesses).
Characters can pretty much learn every single aspect, there are only very few (but powerful) class exclusive abilities. The difference is how fast and good a character can learn different aspects. Pretty much every competence of characters is put into a tree form, and characters gain Chracter points to advance when they reach a new level. Depending on the character's class and the descriptor of the ability, advancing on the tree - or learning the root trait may be differently expensive (e.g. spellcasters can easily learn the different forms of magic, but would have a hard time to learn something like "Greatweapon Combat", while Fighters may learn the latter with ease, but have to spend more time and effort to learn something like "Legerdemain" which is on the other hand very easy for Rogues, who can also learn some forms of magic - for example Illusions and Enchantments - while others, like Summoning may be a lot harder for them to learn.
This whole concept means that there are no "impossible" characters, but that every character may learn different things based on their general abilities and dedication. It also means that there are no multiclass rules, because they are pointless - a character who can both use stealth and magic is not a spellcaster and a rogue, but a character who has learned two different aspects.
Yes, this means that "classes" are pretty much replaced by the different feature trees, and that the game does not become any less complex through it, and the whole balance issue only shifts from one aspect to another.

Skills, Feats, Spells: There is no difference anymore between feats, spells, skills or class features anymore. Pretty much everything is a feature tree and allows for different aspects, from very simple tasks to absolutely heroic, supernatural abilities. Stuff like Hide in Plain Sight is a part of the Stealth tree.
Likewise, different aspects of magic are organized in trees as well, from very simple cantrips to powerful, nigh epic spells, which are organised in different schools and aspects (e.g. Shadow magic (deals with the creation of darkness, and on the higher levels allow the summoning of Shadow creatures, physical constructs out of darkness, or Healing magic, which reaches from the healing of superficial cuts and scratches up to the ressurrection of the dead). A spellcaster must specialise as well as a fighter - or become mediocre in a broader range of abilities.
On the other hand, there should also be meta trait trees, which are only available for characters who have mastered two or more more basic abilities (e.g. combine the abilities of Critical Strikes and Greatsword mastery into the ability to make target decapitation attacks)

Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 09:05 AM
I would like to see a mix between 3.5 and second edition... pratically a 3.5 with the good ideas of Advanced D&D.

Eliminate the stuff more unbalanced (some spells and prestige classes)

Monster: expand the ecology, culture, etc. Give deep to them!

Magic: clerics and druids choose a deity / patron. Then they have access to the spells of a limited number of domains.
Some spells must have a drawback: haste is aging you one year.
Casting time is longer, the longest is the spell: casting a 2nd lev. spell? -2 to your initiative. Casting a 6th lev. spell? -6 to your initiative.

Obiously, also the good ideas from the 4th edition, should be inserted.

2009-06-22, 09:30 AM
I'd want a much more robust metasystem - a D&D structured such that you could emulate the game experience of any previous D&D systems (and of course, much more) using the correct optional ruleset.

The core system can be simple, balanced, and heavily restricted. Successive books can describe entire optional rulesets, incompatible with the core without implementing the recommended houserules. That way, instead of sourcebook power creep, we can get sourcebook complexity creep.

2009-06-22, 09:38 AM
I know D&D is hack and slashy, but I'd like to see something where combat was done with the same mechanics as everything else. Social skills should not take a back seat to sword swinging.

Also, someone mentioned recharging spells. What if for each spell cast you rolled a d10 each round. If the result is greater than the spell level, it recharges. 1s become at wills. 9s may get recast, but you can't expect them to. I think this could be interesting, but it might make for too much die rolling. Maybe the wizard picks a spell to try and recharge each round instead?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 10:01 AM
I think this could be interesting, but it might make for too much die rolling. Maybe the wizard picks a spell to try and recharge each round instead?

Perhaps the other way around--you don't pick a spell and roll to see if you refresh it, you instead roll 1d10-1 once at the beginning of your turn and can refresh a single spell of that level or lower.

2009-06-22, 10:07 AM
That would only work at lvl17+ though. Could be a skill check made as a move action (Spellcraft VS DC 10+CL+Spell level) to recover, and you could lower your CL to have an easier time of getting back spells you then cast as a smaller CL.

Thus, recovering a Fireball at 5th level is a DC18 check, while the same check at 10th level is DC23. You could recover that spell as a 5th level caster, though, and do the DC18, but it would only hit for 5d6. So, a wizard's INT bonus being at spell level-3 would mean they have a 50% chance of recovering the spell. A +6 bonus at 20th is more than easy, even without the magi-mart mentality.

2009-06-22, 10:14 AM
Obiously, also the good ideas from the 4th edition, should be inserted.

Yeah, I'm an infamous 4th edition basher, but there are some good ideas. I appreciated a lot , as an example, how some powers scales automatically without you have to "rank" them up.

Combat Expertise and TWF should work that way.

Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I'm an infamous 4th edition basher, but there are some good ideas. I appreciated a lot , as an example, how some powers scales automatically without you have to "rank" them up.

Funny...I was thinking exactly to this. :smalltongue:
The same mechanics of the weapons of legacy.
Also, i remember a thread where the question was: even if you hate 4th edition, what are the components that you like?

2009-06-22, 10:51 AM
The same mechanics of the weapons of legacy.

Wasn't thinking to that. I was thinking to, as an example, 4th edition turn undead (the AOE is awful but the damage scales properly) or, say, the magic missile.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 12:00 PM
or, say, the magic missile.

A magic missile that doesn't always hit? And you like it!?

HEATHEN!! :smallfurious:

2009-06-22, 03:09 PM
See Arcana Evolved.

Specificily the magic system (spell templates, laden spells, hightened spells, etc) and the rules on dragons.

2009-06-22, 03:25 PM
Rather than listing specifics (which would take forever), let me just post a recipe for my ideal D&D:
Start with 2e (base 2e, not Player Options).
Replace THAC0
Replace the various saves
Replace nonweapon proficiencies
Replace the 2e ... with the 3e ...
Use the 3e ...
Implement 3e ...
Implement feats.

ok, so for those of us who haven't played 2e... what does this look like from the other end? i.e. starting from 3e, how do you get here?

Southern Cross
2009-06-22, 03:28 PM
Personally,any 5th Edition I'd like to play would involve it becoming more like Arcana Evolved.....

2009-06-22, 03:52 PM
ok, so for those of us who haven't played 2e... what does this look like from the other end? i.e. starting from 3e, how do you get here?

Pretty much like 3e, but stats cap out at 25 and have exponential improvement as you get over 18, there are no bonus spells slots nor are spell DCs derived off any stats, spells themselves have a bunch of drawbacks that make the 3.X bombs less über, there are no such things as feats (you buy weapon proficiencies on a separate table as if you were buying feats), martial types are the only ones to get an extra attack on higher levels, martial types are the only ones to get high HP boosts from extreme Con (other classes cap out at +2), everything gets only like 1-3 HP per level after level 10 and multiclassing as we know it doesn't really exist. Oh, and you get full Dex-bonus to AC in every armor.

2009-06-22, 04:02 PM
Dungeon & Dragons: Saga Edition :smallwink:

2009-06-22, 04:31 PM
Unintuitive magic. The easier magic is, the more people should have it (Sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic). It should be easy to play, but if you try to take it apart and look at it logically, you are confused and bewildered. The Vancian system is a good first step.

2009-06-22, 04:42 PM
Main premise would be: 3.5, sans most of the bloated, unnecessary sourcebooks, with certain elements of 4e grafted on like some kind of terrifying Lovecraftian homunculus.

I really like Healing Surges and at-will powers, plus the class-specific moves beyond "1d6 sneak attack" or "pick a bonus feat", but mechanics-wise I always liked core 3.5.

2009-06-22, 05:31 PM
Naturally, my answers here will have a high correlation with the rules set I'm working on myself ...

Which races?
Very much dependent on the setting. 4e-style Tieflings and Dragonborn are fine ... for some worlds. For "Core" races, I almost want to narrow it down just to Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. And maybe Goblins and Orcs. Anything else should be in setting-specific books.

Which classes?
Generic ones, that let you customize your class features quite freely. Wanna be a Ranger, but don't believe that Rangers should have spellcasting? Great, so build a light/fast/stealthy, skilled warrior with woodsy skills and no spellcasting.

Essentially, all class abilities should be feats. Want an animal companion for that Ranger? Take the Animal Bond feat.

Which bonuses?
Only ones that make sense. And that don't encourage too much min-maxing by combining a zillion bonus types.

Which skills?
Skills that are a little consolidated compared to 3e, but that still offer lots of customization, where you can "dip" into a skill just a little bit.

Which feats?
Feats that aren't too strong or too weak. And that give new options, not just numerical plusses.

Which items?
Ones that aren't powerful in combat in enough situations that they become necessary for character/monster balance. Ones that fit into a storyline convincingly. Ones that don't produce the "Christmas Tree Adventurer." Ones that do something (again, not just numeric bonuses -- if your sword is magical, I want to know how it's actually different from a well-made normal sword). Kill the generic "+4 shields," even if they're a sacred cow.

Which spells?
Meh. I don't have emotional attachment to very many spells. I'm fine with various spellcasters having various "spells" that actually have the same effects in the game, but that get called different names and described with very different fluff. Flame Strike and Fireball don't necessarily need to be different in terms of game rules, for example.

Oh, but magic that shouldn't be used in combat should be ... pretty unusable in combat. And more powerful because of that. Things like Teleport, or Control Weather. They should have real casting times (not 1 standard action).

What kind of combat system?
Full of many different options, but fast-playing. The current iterative attack system has to go, for example. It should be more Simulationist than 4e, slightly less so than 3e. I'm torn about how dependent on a battlemap and figurines it should be -- a lot of really cool combat options only become powerful when you have a battlemap, but there was beauty in 2e's equipment independence, too.

What kind of magic system?
Somewhat encounter-based. Casters shouldn't be able to fire off full-powered spells every round, but they also shouldn't have "adventuring narcolepsy" that turns into the 15-minute workday. Some kind of spell points or mana that they can recover with a short rest seems like the best way to manage that.

Which monsters?
Again, this should be more setting-specific than it generally has been historically. One of the main draws of buying books for a new campaign setting should be the cool new monsters you're adding to your game in that particular world. Including uniques.

Which planes?
Pretty much what 4e has. The Great Wheel is fun, but should stay within Planescape.

Which gods?
For a "default setting" in a "Core book"? Hmmm, I guess the 4e gods, or similarly made-up ones, are ok. Get rid of the ones adopted from other particular settings, such as Grayhawk deities. Get rid of racial deities -- different cultures should worship essentially the same gods, just with different names and interpretations. (The human god of War is the same being as the elven god of War is the same being as the orc god of War; they just all call him different titles and expect him to act differently.)

Individual settings, of course, can still play with fun specific things like inter-deity alliances and politics.

Which alignments?
Just a Taint system.

Which quirks or other odd rules?
After a certain point, the power advancement for characters should actually drastically decrease. Kinda like E6. Makes for a much better simulation of most fantasy literature.

2009-06-22, 11:39 PM
NOTE: All of this is should be 3.5 based. I'm not a 4e fan.... I haven't played much of it. Thus, assume what I say refers to the 3.5 version of it. I'm going for 3.5 Flexability with some balance. Though Flexabiltiy is still more important than balance IMO.

Races: Only racial pluses no minuses. That's all I got.

Classes: I think most DnD classes can be sort of made into an alternate option of several base classes. Here would be my suggestion:

Factotum (Skill Guy)
Wizard (Arcane Caster)
Generic ToB Class Warblade maybe? (Frontliner)
Archivist (Divine Guy)
Druid or Ranger (Nature guy.... with seriously restricted magic, mostly summoning, and animal companions, thats plural, focused.)
Dragonfire Adept (At-Will BC guy)
Binder (Just unique cool mechanics.... maybe replace Dragonfire Adept)

And perhaps an actual Archer class? That would be really good.

Everything else..... yeah offshoots as I said. Or you could have them too..... but the list above would be my core classes.

Archvist B/C casting the entire list is too powerful, they don't frontline well and Clerics really shouldn't be all the same as DnD makes them.

All casters on psionics-esque spellpoint system. Much more balanced then Vancian casting. They'll need other nerfs too of course but that would help.

Feats: FEATS SHOULD MEAN SOMETHING. Seriously, I stand by much of what's said here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572). Bonuses should be +3 or higher. Feats scaling.

I agree with what other posters said, +X is retarded. Making magic items less neccasary would be nice.... though I have no idea how to do it without making them not awesome.

Skills: Basically, what others have said. Consilidation. Additionally, DCs probably need to go up, broken skills fixed and they need to be made more useful at the high levels.

Alighnment: Either Magic: The Gathering Color System or none at all.

For the magic thing, thing about your Druids as mono-green. Your demons as R/B, your Clerics as Mono-White and your Wizards as mono-blue. Your rogues and assassins and such can be something like U/B i.e. Dimir. This just makes alot more sense. A villan can be white if he thinks he's doing it for the good of the world. The paladin stopping him can also be white. Both can kill. Both can feel bad about it. See how well this works?

But even that has rigidity issues, stuff it doesn't cover ect. So just doing away with it all toghether would be fine.

Everything else, I have little opinion on.

2009-06-23, 12:19 AM
Which races?
A point based system to create races, along with Humans, Spirits, and Possessed Humans

Which classes?
Fighter, Mage, lots and lots of feat based abilities that are closer to a scaling Rage than Dodge

Which bonuses?
Morale, Enchantment, Competence

Which skills?
Multiple different skill lists for the GM to choose from, if they are needed at all.

Which feats?
Pretty major feats that get big class abilities. Familiar, Rage, Smite Evil, Mount, Hardiness(SR and DR type stuff)

Which items?
Remove the +x bonuses, make weapons either Magical or Nonmagical, with Magical weapons punching through spell defenses, being a lot harder to damage, and in general being better. Then start up with major, important magical items. In general stuff that has less in the way of direct mechanical stats, and more in the way of described effect. Also, bound spirits, of animal level intelligence. Easily freed deliberately, can be freed accidentally, a few intelligent items binding important spirits, big things. Spirits can attune themselves to magic items better than Humans. Using them puts you at risk for possession.

Which spells?
No major spells per se, just abilities that bound spirits can use(see below)

What kind of combat system?
Something kind of close to SAGA and Mutants and Masterminds, with no hit points, and a wound track a la SAGA. With toughness roles

What kind of magic system?
Bound spirits, big risks doing so. Also possible to befriend spirits, and draw them over. Also possible possessed entities with a warlock like magic system, or spirits that managed possession, then lost control would have a warlock like system.

Which monsters?
Dragons, Demons, Outsiders in general, and a lot of modified animals. Then different types of spirits. Think Moribito here.

Which planes?
Material, Ethereal, Astral

Which gods?
Very powerful Demons, Dragons, and Spirits

Which alignments?
None, maybe an explanation of different personality traits.

Which quirks or other odd rules?
Action Points, no HP.

What would you keep?
Basic 3.5 mechanics, with utterly scrapped magic.

What would you throw away?
Hit dice, the current weapon categorization system. Weapons would probable have a point value and could be created then named, with a certain difficulty in learning and mastery based on point value.

2009-06-23, 12:42 AM
I'd probably at least like to see some modicum of respect treated to all races with some semblance of society (and thus playable; even those with LA) as is given to 'PC races'.

Also, actual setting diversity and respect given to the oldest of fans.

2009-06-23, 02:18 AM
A magic missile that doesn't always hit? And you like it!?

HEATHEN!! :smallfurious:


I meant the way the damage scales. In 3.5, you should probably take "improved magic missile" feat.

See how TWF, cleave, combat expertise work.. I mean, why don't meke them scale with BAB, as an example (race of war-style).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 09:24 AM
I'd probably at least like to see some modicum of respect treated to all races with some semblance of society (and thus playable; even those with LA) as is given to 'PC races'.

Actually, I'm working on a system now that lets you easily turn any monster into a playable race, no LA, ECL, or racial levels required. It's part of my 3e revision, so it's unfortunately not 100% applicable to right-out-of-the-MM monsters, but once I finish it I might post a variant that mostly works with MM stuff.


I meant the way the damage scales. In 3.5, you should probably take "improved magic missile" feat.

See how TWF, cleave, combat expertise work.. I mean, why don't meke them scale with BAB, as an example (race of war-style).

I know, I know, I'm just giving you grief. :smallbiggrin:

2009-06-23, 10:07 AM
I know, I know, I'm just giving you grief. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, my apologies in that case :smallcool: