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Traveling_Angel
2006-03-11, 08:34 PM
yes, you read it right. if you are unfimaliar with the books, just check the mecanics. don't ask questions.

Races

Mice
(essetially humans.) a mouse can take the non-combatant flaw(-4 to all melee attack rolls), give up her bonus feat, and get a +2 bonus to the following skills: Craft?:cooking, Proffesion:gardener, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: legends,(I know I need more here) as well as free litarcy.(more later)

Hares
deal 1d6 unarmed damage and Improved Unarmed Strike(hind legs, anyone?) the damage also applies to grapple checks. +2 racial to any check relating to millatary or warfare. Arua of determnation: any creature within 20ft of a hare (including the hare ) get a +1 bonus agianst fear affects. bonuses stack from mutiple hares.

Otters
(maybe abillity mods) +2 on Profesion:salior checks, +4 to Swim (improves to +8 if taking 10), gets concelment in water, +2 to hide if in water. automatic profecency with sling and javlein.


more later, suggestions welcomed!

Behold_the_Void
2006-03-11, 08:41 PM
How are you handling the sizes? The books seem to screw with the sizes in really indistinct ways.

Catch
2006-03-11, 08:47 PM
Mice would probably be small, otters, hares and weasels would be medium, and badgers would be large, I think.

Brickwall
2006-03-11, 08:55 PM
Moles. *Definitely make moles. *Probably something like Half-orcs with Tremorsense instead of Darkvision, and Stonecunning probably. *Take away any half-orc special attributes I didn't include, and add fur. *Moles!

Honestly, I've had this idea in my head for a year. Never got anything on paper, though. This could be a great project!

Donsic
2006-03-11, 09:43 PM
Where's the shrews? Otters should have the same swimming abilities as the lizard folk in 3.5 mm, you know the thing that lets them hold their breath longer, and Swimming should be an automatic class skill.

It' been awhile since i've read those books but, weren't there like 8 different kinds of vermine too.

Edited: for mistype. *

GoldDragon
2006-03-11, 10:05 PM
I could've sworn there had already been a topic about this sometime before now...

Amotis
2006-03-11, 10:07 PM
It was in friendly banter I think...I don't know but there was another topic. However, It might have been travelling angel who made that as well...

Zangor
2006-03-11, 10:54 PM
That was me (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1133660952 ;start=0) but I kinda gave up due to an apparent lack of intrest and such. For sizes, I just assumed that the mice were the starting point and worked it from there.

AmoDman
2006-03-12, 12:57 AM
SQUIRRELS! ;D

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-12, 01:36 AM
actualy, moles seems more like this like this:

-2int, +2 wis, Moles aren't very clever, but have rock hard sense.
Moles have a dig speed. (TBD)

and we need more good stuff for moles.

Squirrels:
(abillity mods,) climb speed of 30, land of 40, climb is trees only. +4 on other climb checks. auto proffency with bow and Javlein.


as for size, I think that if mice are our humans, they should be medium. also, otters aren't all that much larger, same with the others. Badgers and perhaps Wolverines are deffently large.

AmoDman
2006-03-12, 01:40 AM
actualy, moles seems more like this like this:

-2int, +2 wis, Moles aren't very clever, but have rock hard sense.
Moles have a dig speed. (TBD)

and we need more good stuff for moles.

Squirrels:
(abillity mods,) climb speed of 30, land of 40, climb is trees only. +4 on other climb checks. auto proffency with bow and Javlein.


as for size, I think that if mice are our humans, they should be medium. also, otters aren't all that much larger, same with the others. Badgers and perhaps Wolverines are deffently large.

Actually, I think mice are about the smallest as the creatures get. They're just the "main" race presented to us at the Abbey. If you've really read a lot of the books you'll find it's not like they're the most or more common than anything else, just at the abbey...sorta.

captain_decadence
2006-03-12, 02:11 AM
Mice would be a small race, most definetely. Squirrels, hares, and maybe shrews (not sure) would be medium. Large would be badgers and foxes. I think the birds that are in the top of the abbey(not sure what species, maybe sparrows?) should be a playable race. Not sure how you'd go about that though.

I think squirrels need a +2 dex and -2 wisdom. They are amazingly agile creatures, but not the most steadfast and sensible.

AmoDman
2006-03-12, 02:18 AM
Mice would be a small race, most definetely. *Squirrels, hares, and maybe shrews (not sure) would be medium. *Large would be badgers and foxes. *I think the birds that are in the top of the abbey(not sure what species, maybe sparrows?) should be a playable race. *Not sure how you'd go about that though.

I think squirrels need a +2 dex and -2 wisdom. *They are amazingly agile creatures, but not the most steadfast and sensible.



Naw, shrews are small. Quite small, actually. About the same as mice. I also think a -2 WIS on Squirrels would be ridiculous...they live and breathe hopping about the trees and common sense or what have you. I'd stick on a -2 INT for theire, oh, I dunno, Squirrelish nature ;).

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-12, 02:30 AM
foxes in Redwall aren't any bigger than anything, and mice aren't paticuraly small. besides, Martin is not related to Badrang as smaller by a large margin. Pygmy shrews? SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jothki
2006-03-12, 02:33 AM
Naw, shrews are small. Quite small, actually. About the same as mice. I also think a -2 WIS on Squirrels would be ridiculous...they live and breathe hopping about the trees and common sense or what have you. I'd stick on a -2 INT for theire, oh, I dunno, Squirrelish nature ;).


I'd give them -2 CON. Really the only thing that wouldn't not make sense.


How are you handling the sizes? The books seem to screw with the sizes in really indistinct ways.

Yeah, that is an issue if you think about that. Badgers are freaking huge, but just how freaking huge? They seem to do fine inside Redwall, which was designed and built mostly by mice.

captain_decadence
2006-03-12, 02:45 AM
I think Redwall was built to a pretty large size though, and with the thoughts of many different creatures coming and going.

I forgot how big shrews were, that was me just not remembering, not me trying to change things. I read the books a while ago.

Hmmm, I could see the -2 con for the squirrels. Squirrels aren't the sturdiest of creatures.

I always viewed foxes, while not as big as baders, as being larger than the other animals. Maybe this was wrong.

GoldDragon
2006-03-12, 09:11 AM
Well, at least in the real world foxes are bigger than mice, moles, squirrels, and the like. But meh, that's the real world. We're talking about fantasy here! Anyways, I always saw foxes as being larger than the micey types in the book too.

Brickwall
2006-03-12, 11:46 AM
Mice seem to be smaller creatures than most, but I don't think there's a size difference. Most creatures are just on different ends of Medium. Foxes would be somewhere around average, badgers would be tall, mice would be short.

Zangor
2006-03-12, 12:52 PM
Here's my thoughts on the how a Redwall D20, copied from my earlier thread:

I thought that the classes would need some changes, especially removing the magic classes:


Fighter could probably be used as-is.
Some sort of Geurilla Class
Some sort of Ranger Class
Healer (Mundane healing, of course)
Commoner
Expert
Some sort of Mundane Paladin type class
Rougeish class
Swashbuckling type fighter

And for Prcs:
Badger Lord
Guisom Shrew
Skipper of the Otters
Log-A-Log
Foremole
Tracker
Long Patrol Hare



Races: (all are ECL+0 unless otherwise noted)

Mouse:
Medium Beast
Base Speed of 30
+4 Skill points at level one and +1 skill point at each level after
One Extra feat at level one
Favored Class: Any

I thought that the Mice would be the general "average" PC, since that's basically them in the books.

Otter:
Medium Beast
Base Speed 30 and Swim Speed of 40
+2 Dex -2 Cha: Otters are skilled but are often gruff
+1 Racial bonus to fort saves: Otters are usually hardy
+4 Bonus to swim checks
Weapon Familiarity: All otters are proficient with slings (or, if all classes are already going to be proficient with simple weapons, then otters get weapon focus, but I feel this may be overpowered)
Favored Class:?

I think they might be able to use a bit more, but this is the general feel I am going for. Maybe they should also have some sort of familiarity with Javelins?

Hare:
Medium Beast
+2 Dex -2 Wis: Hares are skilled but often lack common sense
Base Speed 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Hide and Move Silently: Hares are skilled at avoiding detection
+2 Racial Bonus to Listen: Those ears aren't for show, wot wot!
Quick-Footed: Hares get the benefit of the Run Feat for free
Enormous appetite: Hares require twice the amount of food as other beasts their size
Favored Class: A ranger type class seems about right.

I don't know, it seems that they, like the otter, are missing something.

Hedgehog
Medium Beast
+2 Con -2 Dex: Hedgehogs can take a beating, but they tend to be a bit uncoordinated
Base Speed of 30
Spikes: Any beast attempting to grapple a hedgehog (except another Hedgehog) takes 1d6 piercing damage.
Curl: A hedgehog may, as a move equivalent action, curl into a tight ball, granting a +3 natural armor bonus but leaving the beat flat footed. If the hedgehog is rolled into an enemy somehow, he deals 1d6 damage.
Favored Class: ?

Badger
Large Beast
+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha: Badgers are strong and tough but tend to be gruff.
Base Speed 40
+2 To will Saves
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Favored Class: A fighter like class, obviously.
ECL: +2

This seems to preserve the feel of badgers without making them too out of reach to have in a party if it doesn't start at level one.

Mole
Medium Beast
+2 Wis, -2 Int
Base speed 20'/Dig speed 20
Darkvision 60'
+2 Cultural bonus to Knowledge (Engineering and Architecture) checks.
Moles Recieve Stonecunning as a racial feature
Digging claws deal 1d4/x2 slashing damage.
Favored Class:?

Can't really say much more except that Molespeak might be an intresting in game effect-- maybe some sort of check to understand what a mole is saying?


Squirrel
Medium Beast
+2 Dex, -2 Con: Squirrels are agile but frail
Base Speed 30/Climb Speed 30
+1 Bonus to Reflex Saves
+4 Bonus to Climb checks.
+2 Bonus to Jump checks
+2 Bonus to Balance checks
Favored Class: ?

Shrew:
Medium beast
+2 Dex, -2 Cha: Shrews are skilled and agile, but are very argumentative.
Base Speed 30
+2 Bonus to Proffesion (Sailor). This applies to sea vessles as well as the log boats used by shrews.
Weapon Familiarity: Rapier. All shrews are trained in its use.
Favored Class: The Geurilla type class seems ideal, obviously.


And the Vermin Races:


Rat
Medium Vermin
+2 Con -2 Int
Base Speed 30
+2 Cultural Bonus to intimidate
Recieves the Benefit of toughness at first level.
Favored Class:?

Weasel/Ferret/Stoat (They're similar enough that I think they can use the same stats)
Medium Vermin
+2 Dex +2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
+4 Bonus to Escape Artist
+2 Bonus to Hide
Favored Class:?

Fox:
Medium Vermin
+2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
Low Light Vision
+4 Cultural Bonus to Bluff
+2 Additional Bonus to Bluff checks for Secret Messages
Favored Class: ?

Wildcat:
Large Vermin
+4 Str +2 Con +2 Int
Base Speed: 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Spot and Listen
+2 Bonus to Intimidate Checks
Two claws: 1d6 each
Bite: 2d4
Favored Class:?
ECL: I'll try to put this near where the badger ends up, buffing/nerfing the race as needed.

Now, the Badger went under lots of revisions, so here are some of the other proposals that were put forth for badgers:


Badger
Large Beast
Racial Hit Dice: A badger begins with four levels of badger, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Badger Weapon:
A Badger has one weapon that he specializes in. A badger may use a weapon sized for a huge beast if it is his specialization. For example, a Badger who choses greatsword would use a greatsword for a huge beast without penalty.
Racial Skills: 7X(2+Int. Mod, Min 1) Class Skills: Climb, Listen, Spot, Craft (Weaponsmith), and Craft (Armor)
Badgers recieve the benefit of the toughness feat for free.
Badgers recieve the benefit of the Endurance feat for free
(Instead, should it just be noted that these are often taken as the feats the HD give it?)
+4 Natural Armour Bonus
LA:+2? +3?

And here's a progression based off of the Ogre:

BADGER
Clvl HD Saves (F/R/W) Skill Points CR Special
1 1d8 +2 / +0 / +0 (4+Int mod)x4 1 Toughness, +2 natural armor
2 2d8 +3 / +0 / +0 4+Int mod 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
3 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 1 Endurance, +3 natural armor
4 3d8 +3 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 1 +2 Str, +2 Con
5 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 2 Large size, reach 10 ft., +2 Str, -2 Dex
6 4d8 +4 / +1 / +1 4+Int mod 2 +2 Str, +4 natural armor

Starting Ability Scores: +2 Str, -2 Cha
Speed: A Badger's land speed is 40'
Bloodwrath
Badger Weapon
Badger Crafting Weapons and Armor



Waddya think?

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-12, 04:38 PM
I think that the Craft skills shouldn't be in badger. Sunflash, anyone?
Otters should get Javleins, squirrels should get bows, Wilcats shouldn't be large, should have claws. Also, Otters are very socialable, so cha doesn't make sense.

for the Mundane Pally, how about this, but a PrC?

Martin's Champion

Race Squirrel or Mouse
BAB:3
Feats:Improved Initive
Special: there can only be one at a time.

that sound good?

ADD: Molespeak could be vermin must make a int check DC15 to understand.

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-12, 04:48 PM
Badgers should not get natural armor, no racial hit dice, but a Str bonus does make sense, the player may decide to have Bloodwraith, with all the stuff included, or not, and not have access to volenary rage.

The bonus against fear make huge sense for hares.

Eulaiaaaaaaaaa!

sound like morale problems to you?

hares also should have fighter as favored.

Zangor
2006-03-12, 04:54 PM
On Martin's Champion: I don't think it should be restritced to only squirell and mouse. Ever read Taggerung?

And I think that having the craft skills as class skills for badger makes sense, because badgers tend to be great smiths. Just because some didn't take the skills, so to speak, doesn't mean that it's not easily available to them. I mean, who crafted the greatest sword in the series?

Which brings me to this idea. Though as a rule, there should not be magic in this, I think that The Sword of Martin should act something like this:

Sword of Martin:
+2 Starmetal Bastard Sword

The properties of Starmetal would probably include greatly increasing its hardness/hitpoints (as the sword is always presented as unbreakable)

Additionally, possesion of the Sword Should probably be a requirement for taking the Martin's Champion Prestige Class-- either that, or one must have a Dream in which Martin reveals his champion.

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-12, 11:34 PM
Okay otter is in, but the champion isn't ever a mole, boir aye!

Zangor
2006-03-13, 04:49 PM
How should healing be handled? Without magical healing, combat will be very dangerous, but we want people to be able to adventure, I think. Maybe give the "Healer" class abilities that function quite similarly to standard healing spells, but the damage recovers over time(but still faster than standard), and isn't considered magical?

Brickwall
2006-03-13, 06:49 PM
How should healing be handled? Without magical healing, combat will be very dangerous, but we want people to be able to adventure, I think. Maybe give the "Healer" class abilities that function quite similarly to standard healing spells, but the damage recovers over time(but still faster than standard), and isn't considered magical?

Combat was pretty dangerous. People who got hit once were put into medical wards for days to weeks. However:

VITALITY POINTS!!! All hero's seem to have some kind of immunity that keeps them from being really hurt often, and that is what VP represent.

Traveling_Angel
2006-03-13, 07:05 PM
I agree with the posseion or dream, but on to the other stuff

Full BAB
good fort(will?) maybe good saves all around.
some sort of bonus agianst fear affects, and perhaps,some abillity that pulls the sword and the char together.



ADD: ferret/stoat/wesel should have rouge as favored

Falkus
2006-03-13, 07:19 PM
Wildcat:
Large Vermin
+4 Str +2 Con +2 Int
Base Speed: 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Spot and Listen
+2 Bonus to Intimidate Checks
Two claws: 1d6 each
Bite: 2d4
Favored Class:?
ECL: I'll try to put this near where the badger ends up, buffing/nerfing the race as needed.

Large seems a bit small. IIRC, the comparative size of cats to mice was about that as it is in real life.

Zangor
2006-03-13, 10:06 PM
Large seems a bit small. IIRC, the comparative size of cats to mice was about that as it is in real life.
That never seemed that clear to me. In the original Redwall, it seems that way, but less so later on. For example, on the cover I have to Lord Brocktree, it shows Brocktree and Ungatt Trunn being about the same size; most of the books seem to represent it that way, and I always got the idea of a badger being large in comparison to a mouse's medium. I feel more inclined to go with the later books, because early on, Brian Jacques was still working out the details of his world.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-03-13, 10:58 PM
I always figured they were all around the same size, (medium) with real-life differeces ignored, i think if that is followed badgers should have powerful build (large seems excessive though). maybe one of the races (shrew?) as small.....

haven't read the book since o.... taggerung, i sorta outgrew them..... and i didn't like the whole good races wre inherently so and vermin were inherently evil bit done in taggerung and outcast of redwall......

Amotis
2006-03-13, 11:01 PM
haven't read the book since o.... taggerung, i sorta outgrew them..... and i didn't like the whole good races wre inherently so and vermin were inherently evil bit done in taggerung and *outcast of redwall......
But it's a kid's book, of course it's gonna be black and white.

Zangor
2006-03-13, 11:44 PM
Heh, one of my favorite characters was a searat turned good. I think he's from the Bellmaker.

Casualgamer
2006-03-14, 02:31 AM
Is the dude still writing the series? I read those books when I was like 10!

AmoDman
2006-03-14, 05:22 PM
Is the dude still writing the series? I read those books when I was like 10!

Yes...lol, until the day he dies (seriously).

Blade-Bearer_Ian
2006-03-14, 05:39 PM
Otters should have a swim speed, 20 feet perhapse?

hewhosaysfish
2006-03-14, 05:39 PM
I'm also kinda surprised to see the series still going. Is it still any good or has it gone the way of so many indefinitely long series before it?

Anyway, for the whole Champion of Martin thing, compare it to the Scion PrC in Unearthed Arcana: it's actually a set of PrCs each one connected to a different legendary weapon. For class features, you unlock more and more abillities of the weapon.
Kinda like a Kensai, now that I think about it but you're mastering an existing uberweapon rather than creating your own.

Zangor
2006-03-14, 11:49 PM
I'm also kinda surprised to see the series still going. Is it still any good or has it gone the way of so many indefinitely long series before it?

Well, I think that the last few (Loamhedge onward) havent' been as good, but they're still decent. I mean, they're meant for children and are thus a bit simple, but sometimes you just want simple black and white morality, clear heroics and the like. When you lose the ability to appreciate that, I believe that you've lost your way. (Note, "you" general)
One nice thing about this black and white morality is that it translates well to the standard alignment system.

AmoDman
2006-03-15, 12:01 AM
As far as healing is concerned, my idea would be 'poultices,' nature's magic! And there's not just one kind of poultice, either, but several, which can only be (easily and readily) made by those with a certain skill in making them, and their effectiveness be dependent upon user, as well. I would, I think, assign a sort of "Ranger" class a limited ability w/making and using poultices, and the priest class an extremely high ability.

This is, of course, no actually ability level design, but just an idea to work from. With no priest class made so far (and I think that's a good name for the healer class, even if they aren't technically a 'priest') I'd suggest that poultices and the use thereof be one of their main schticks. Only problem is I'm not sure what the hell else they should good at. Social skills, I guess, make them the best crafters in the game as well, but I'm not sure what player would play a straight class with so little combat capability. Definitely something a fighter could start out in, though, to have some limited ability to 'heal' themselves. Paladin, on that note, might work best as a sort of prestige class that one has to access through priest/fighter. Just my thoughts.

edit: I just had another thought. Though it's not really in the books, I think a toned down/altered druid might work in the redwall setting. It's "magic" that results from a close communion w/nature. I'd imagine like half the spell list might need to be blasted off as not fitting the flavor, but it could be a really cool concept to put in. I'd take out the animal companion (obviously, lol) and wildshape abilities and replace them with some sort of "nature benefits" that progress w/level such as barkskin (nat armor), Increased claw/tooth effectiveness (for fighting), tree movement maybe, and othersuch.

Zangor
2006-03-15, 04:57 PM
Ok, let's take a look at what classes we need, while we're on the subject:

We have fighter, which could probably be used as is.
Barbarian could be used as is or at least with litttle tweaking. (Great class for badgers, maybe their favored class?)

Healer/Priest, possibly using the "poultice" idea

Rouge could be used as is

Ranger and Druid could both be used with adjustments to abilities/spells

The paladin could be made a prestige class, possibly it could be used for the Champion of Redwall?

Brickwall
2006-03-15, 05:46 PM
You mean "poultice". "Poultrice" is something related to chickens. And that is a bit non-medicinal (with the exception of chicken-noodle soup).

Zangor
2006-03-15, 10:37 PM
Bleh, typo. Thanks.