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Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-21, 08:05 PM
G7: The Core Rules


This is a close-to-final draft of some of the most important rules. Stay tuned for more developments, and remember: community input is always appreciated.

*****


The Idea

G7 is a game intended to combine the best qualities of D&D 3.5, D&D 4e, and the E6 variant of D&D 3.5 with a wide range of new mechanics and ideas to create a fluid, simple, balanced, and versatile system able to fit a variety of gaming styles. To accomplish some of this, it has deviated significantly from its original goal of being merely a revised version of E6, and has thus moved away from D&D as a whole, while still bearing enough of a resemblance that D&D players should be able to adapt quickly.


A Brief Overview

G7 has the following features at this current time (although these are subject to change): A 7 level "path" system of advancement. The path concept will be discussed later.
A dual advancement along the aforementioned paths, allowing a wide variety of character concepts to be valid in play from level 1 to level 7.
A continual flow of class features, keeping every level interesting.
A health and healing system that provides gritty combat encounters, with the danger of death never completely being mitigated by truckloads of hit points or invincible defenses.
A variety of at-will powers and less frequent, more potent abilities derived from your classes and chosen from a wide range of possibilities to give your character unique options in and out of combat.
A never-before-seen weapon mechanic, removing the statistical advantage of wielding a specific weapon in favor of granting weapon-specific maneuvers, allowing a master fencer to finally stand miles apart from the greataxe-wielding barbarian in terms of style and technique.
Six ability scores--Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intellect, Wits, and Presence--functioning as both mediums from which bonuses are derived and also your characters static defenses.
A 4e style level-based numerical bonus that scales offense, defense, damage, and damage resistance, keeping combat against equally matched foes consistent while allowing your hero to eventually carve his or her way through weaker opposition.



The Path Concept

Let's talk about Paths. They are, on the surface, very similar to D&D's classes: your character picks two of them, and progresses in them for 7 levels, gaining abilities at each level. The difference is that G7 classes are not all jobs. Think of them more as philosophies or as ways of life: take the Barbarian path, for example. In D&D, the Barbarian is a feral warrior, best suited to melee characters and large weapons. In G7, this character could be a Barbarian//Fighter: a strong, powerful melee fighter whose rage is terrifying. But the character could also be a Barbarian//Skirmisher: a fast, dexterous, deadly fighter who uses her speed and primal fury to drive her to victory. Perhaps even a Barbarian//Sorcerer; in that case, the devastating rage abilities function not as improvements to melee combat, but rather as surges of spirit that drive the Sorcerer's magic to new and truly potent heights. All these and more can be accomplished with simply the Barbarian Path: no feats or other additions are necessary, as the mechanics don't force you into a specific role.
Paths gain one ability each level, giving your character a total of 14 path-associated abilities by the time they have reached 7th level. Abilities are never as simplistic as “you gain a +1 bonus to hit,” but never so complicated that a game stalls as a character tries to decipher exactly what his or her new power can accomplish.
At the moment, it is not possible for a character to multiclass or to enter a prestige class, as the end goal is to make any character concept valid from level 1 with no need to diversify further. If the community deems it necessary, however, allowances for such an instance will at least be attempted.


The Health System

Health is always a crucial concern for players. In G7 this is especially true, as your overall health never increases past level 1. This keeps combat deadly, and reduces room for error: you don’t have 100 hit points to waste on a mistake.

“Hit Points” come in two varieties: Wound Points and Avoidance. You gain Wound Points equal to your Constitution score, plus an additional amount dependent on your character’s Race (listed under the traits for that race). Wound Points represent your overall durability: if a character has taken at least 1 point of Wound Damage, that character is bloodied. If a character has taken over 50% of his or her Wound Points in damage, that character is wounded. Once a character’s Wound Points reach -10, that character is dead. Damage to Wound Points heals slowly, and many attacks will deal additional damage against a bloodied or wounded character.

Avoidance, however, can be healed easily. It represents your training and your ability to dodge or parry blows, and is determined by the two Paths you have chosen to follow. All damage is applied first to any remaining Avoidance, and then and only then to Wound Points. An exception to this, however, is if the attack in question specifies otherwise, or if your character is surprised (a condition where the attack has superior advantage).

Avoidance is also easily healed. It heals naturally at a fast rate, many powers can restore Avoidance, and your character can also activate his or her Adrenaline Surge to regain points of Avoidance…but only after he or she has taken Wound Damage.


Other (currently unsorted) Information

Ability Defenses: A major mechanic in G7 is the ability to attack Ability Defenses, allowing for a wider variety of effects. Ability Defenses are, like all things in G7, represented by a simple formula: you calculate your Ability Defense for a given ability score by taking your score in that ability and adding a value to it equal to your Character Level. Thus, a 3rd level Fighter with a Strength score of 15 has a Strength Defense of 18, while a 7th level Wizard with a Strength score of 11 also has a Strength Defense of 18.

Ability Value: To determine if your attack lands, you need to first determine your Ability Value (the number you add to your d20 when trying to meet or exceed your target’s defenses). As each character has six separate Ability Defenses, each character also has six separate Ability Values, each keyed to a separate ability score. The ability score determining the attack’s success is detailed under the description of each individual attack power, but the general formula remains the same: you calculate your Ability Value for a given ability score by taking your modifier in that ability and adding a value to it equal to your Character Level. Thus, a 3rd level character with a Strength score of 15 has a Strength Value of +5, while a 7th level character with a Strength score of 11 has a Strength Value of +7.

Attacking Tips (Currently for Player vs. Player only): G7 is designed assuming that most characters will be built towards their respective strengths, and, as such, defenses are calculated assuming most attacks will be made with an Ability Value equal to Character Level + 3. Even this bonus, however, requires a roll of a 13 to successfully land an attack on your opponent’s highest Ability Defense. Each subsequent -1 in the Ability Value equates to an additional +1 to the minimum roll needed. The worst possible Ability Value, equal to Character Level + 0, will find itself at a 50% chance to hit even the worst Ability Defense of an equal level. As such, it pays to have a variety of attacks available, and to target your opponent’s weaknesses rather than try to overcome them through brute force.

G7 is also built to scale as the characters gain levels. A level 7 hero can still be killed by a group of lower level characters, but only a select few will be able to touch her strong points, as, by level 7, a character’s weakest Ability Defense is at the level of a starting character’s strongest Ability Defense. This keeps weaknesses from becoming overbearing, while still having them contribute greatly to a fight against an opponent of equal skill.

Skills: Skills in G7 are front-loaded, allowing for skilled laborers and artisans who lack the power or experience to truly be called heroes. A first level character may allot her Skill Points as she desires, up a maximum of 8 ranks in any single skill. Each additional level raises this cap by 2, so that a perfectly skilled 7th level character may up to 20 ranks in a skill. As 8 ranks gives enough range for a variety of skill levels, low level characters may still be very adept at their respective skills. Certainly the legendary Wizard has a better grasp of Arcana than an entry-level magus, but that magus may still be an expert in his own right.

Universal Resistance: As heroes grow in power, so to does their ability to survive that which would kill a lesser man. G7 heroes retain this principle, although not in the traditional manner. Rather than gaining additional Hit Points at each level, characters gain Universal Resistance equal to their Character Level. Subtract an amount of damage equal to the character’s Universal Resistance from any and all damage the character takes, unless the damage specifically says otherwise (many cases of environmental damage, such as that received from a full submersion in lava, will override Universal Resistance). No amount of Resistance, however, can completely negate damaging effects: a character always takes at least 1 point of damage from a successful attack.

Specific Resistances: G7 characters may also gain a variety of Resistances against other sorts of damage. These Resistances add to Universal Resistance in any situations where both would take effect, but only against the damage types covered by the Specific Resistance. Armor, for example, provides Martial Resistance. Against any attack that deals Martial damage, a character wearing armor subtracts the sum total of his Universal Resistance and his Martial Resistance from the damage taken. In some cases, only Specific Resistances apply: Universal Resistance does not prevent damage from submersion in lava, but Fire Resistance will negate damage from the same effect. Multiple instances of the same Resistance do not stack; only the best applies.

Teamwork and Flanking: Flanking as we know it does not exist in G7, but Teamwork does. For each ally adjacent to the target, you gain a +1 bonus to your Martial Attack Values against that target, up to a maximum bonus of +3 for having four allies all threatening a single target. If you and an ally are on opposite sides of an opponent, you are considered to be Flanking the target (although this grants no specific bonus other than the +1 bonus to Martial Attack Values, some powers and abilities will require you to be Flanking your target).

This may seem unfair to spellcasters or archers, but never fear. Both can stack their own bonuses as well: archers gain a +1 bonus (up to a maximum of +3) for each additional opponent who attacks the target at the same time (through the use of readied actions). Spellcasters gain a +1 bonus (up to a maximum of +3) for each spellcaster adjacent to them, as the concentrated magic empowers their spells.

Opposed Ability Checks: When the difference between ability modifiers is a meager +1 or +2, it may seem like your professional boxer is in danger of getting beaten up by the party runt. This isn’t the case though, as Opposed Ability Checks in G7 are the exception to the “add your modifier” rule. During an Opposed Ability Check, you add your entire ability score to the equation: a level 1 character with 16 Strength gets a +17, while a level 1 character with 10 Strength gets a +11.


One Final Note: Given that the system is slowly moving away from traditional D&D, I've been debating changing the name from G7 to simply Seven...partly because I have a nifty logo. Thoughts?

Lappy9000
2009-06-21, 08:47 PM
Given that the system is slowly moving away from traditional D&D, I've been debating changing the name from G7 to simply Seven...partly because I have a nifty logo. Thoughts?Nifty or not, you don't wanna fraternize with a cannibal. Seven ate Nine, remember? :smalleek:

Vadin
2009-06-21, 09:12 PM
Nifty or not, you don't wanna fraternize with a borg. Seven of Nine, remember? :smalleek:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-21, 09:28 PM
Nifty or not, you don't wanna fraternize with a borg. Seven of Nine, remember? :smalleek:


Nifty or not, you don't wanna fraternize with a cannibal. Seven ate Nine, remember? :smalleek:

Amusing though this sort of thing is, it really doesn't help me with anything at all. Could we, for the moment, keep comments at least somewhat helpful, please?

Vadin
2009-06-21, 09:40 PM
*sigh*

If we must.

Could you give us a little more detail on paths and such?

Everything at present seems to fit together quite well internally, but it would be easier to gauge balance and overall cohesiveness with some examples of what constitutes balance in G7: sample monsters, paths, feats, races would all be great.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-21, 10:26 PM
Three current path concepts, two of which are missing 1 6th level power.


Assassin Path

Table ??-??: The Assassin
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Stalk the Prey

2nd|
Strike the Veins

3rd|
Fade from Sight

4th|
Murderous Precision

5th|
Poison Expertise

6th|
???

7th|
End to Suffering[/table]

Stalk the Prey: By spending a Standard Action doing nothing but observing a creature, an Assassin gains a cumulative +1 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value on the next attack she makes against that creature. Each additional consecutive Standard Action spent in this manner increases the bonus received by +1, to a maximum of +3.

Strike the Veins: Whenever an Assassin deals Damage to a target she has Advantage over, the target gains persistent 1 (bleeding) for a number of rounds equal to the Assassin’s Level.

Fade From Sight: The Assassin learns the Fade From Sight At-Will Power.

Fade From Sight ― Assassin At-Will
Your finely honed skills allow you to effortlessly blend into crowds
or shadows.
Swift Reaction ― Offensive Augmentation
Trigger: You roll a Hide Check.
Target: Personal.
Effect: Roll a second Hide Check, and take the best result.

Murderous Precision: Whenever an Assassin gains at least a +1 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value against a creature through the use of her Stalk the Prey ability, she deals an additional +3 Damage on that attack for each +1 of her Perception Bonus (so an Assassin gaining a +3 Perception Bonus to her Offense Value deals an additional +9 Damage if her attack is a success).

Poison Expertise: Whenever a creature makes a Saving Throw against any poison utilized by an Assassin (whether contacted by injection, inhalation, contact, or a weapon attack), the Assassin adds a +2 Expertise Bonus to the Save Difficulty of the poison.

???: ???

End to Suffering: Whenever an Assassin scores a Critical Hit on an unwounded creature, the creature’s Hit Point immediately drop to it’s wounded value, unless the attack would bring it to a Hit Point total lower than it’s wounded value, in which case the attack functions normally. Whenever an Assassin scores a Critical Hit on a wounded creature, the creature immediately drops to -1 Hit Points and is dying, unless the attack would bring it to fewer than -1 Hit Points, in which case the attack functions normally.



Barbarian Path

Table ??-??: The Barbarian
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Driven by Anger

2nd|
Never Say Die

3rd|
Bloodied Not Beaten

4th|
Enduring Fury

5th|
Indomitable Rage

6th|
Grievous Wound

7th|
Rage Transcending[/table]

Driven by Anger: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she gains 2 Temporary Hit Points.

Never Say Die: A Barbarian may remain conscious and continue to take actions as normal if reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points. She still dies when her Hit Point total falls below a negative value equal to her Constitution score. If she already has this ability (from the Orc racial ability Fight Past Death, for example), she instead gains 5 Hit Points.

Bloodied Not Beaten: When Wounded, a Barbarian is only treated as being Wounded if it would be beneficial to her to be so. For example, attacks that trigger additional effects against a Wounded target do not trigger those effects against a Wounded Barbarian, but attacks made by a Wounded Barbarian that trigger additional effects if the Initiator is Wounded do trigger those effects.

Enduring Fury: Whenever a Barbarian uses a Power with the Rage keyword, she adds 1 round to the duration of all effects of the Power. Bonuses gained in this way do not stack unless the Power specifies a Stacking Bonus.

Indomitable Rage: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword makes a Saving Throw, she may instead make two Saving Throws and take the better result.

Grievous Wound: The Barbarian learns the Grievous Wound At-Will Power.

Grievous Wound ― Barbarian At-Will
The primal force behind your attack leaves your opponent reeling in pain.
Swift Reaction ― Offensive Augmentation
Trigger: You score a Critical Hit.
Target: The victim of your Critical Hit.
Effect: The target becomes stunned for 1 round.

Rage Transcending: Whenever a Barbarian currently gaining a Power Bonus of any kind from a Power with the Rage keyword would suffer a Status Ailment, she may instead ignore the effect until she is no longer gaining a Power Bonus from a Power with the Rage keyword. At this time, any and all Status Ailments so delayed take effect as if the Barbarian had just received them.



Skirmisher Path

Table ??-??: The Skirmisher
{table=head]Level|Class Abilities

1st|
Advantageous Strike

2nd|
Fleet of Foot

3rd|
Opportunist

4th|
Quicksilver Motion

5th|
Opportunistic Exploitation

6th|
????

7th|
First Strike[/table]

Advantageous Strike: Whenever a Skirmisher has Advantage over her target, she gains a +2 Class Bonus to damage.
Fleet of Foot: A Skirmisher gains the Fleet of Foot At-Will Power.
Fleet of Foot ― Skirmisher At-Will
With a bit of skill and luck you can dance about the battlefield untouched.
Free Reaction ― Adjust, Evasion
Trigger: An opponent misses you with an attack made on an Opportunity
Action.
Target: Personal.
Effect: You Shift 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters) and gain a Stacking +1 Dodge
bonus to Defense versus Opportunity Actions until the end of the turn.

Opportunist: A Skirmisher gains the Opportunist At-Will Power.
Opportunist ― Skirmisher At-Will
When your opponent is distracted, you seize the moment and attack.
Immediate Reaction ― Untyped
Trigger: An adjacent opponent takes damage from an attack.
Target: The damaged opponent.
Effect: Your opponent provokes an immediate Opportunity Action
from you.

Quicksilver Motion: The first time a Skirmisher would provoke an Opportunity Action in a round, she may instead choose to not provoke an Opportunity Action. She may use this ability once per round.

Opportunistic Exploitation: A Skirmisher may add her Advantageous Strike damage whenever she takes an Opportunity Action, even if she does not have Advantage.

First Strike: A Skirmisher may always roll Initiative in a Surprise Round, and is considered to have rolled a 20 on her Initiative in all subsequent rounds. If the Skirmisher already has the ability to roll Initiative in a Surprise Round, she instead gains a +4 bonus to Initiative in the Surprise Round, and is considered to have rolled a 20 on her Initiative in all subsequent rounds.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-22, 11:09 AM
Alright. I had an idea at work today, which may prove an interesting system...or may prove to be so much garbage.

To keep martial and magical combat seperate, as well as to control the use of potent powers without resorting to an arbitrary "1/encounter" format, I suggest the following possibility:

Martial

Martial powers have an Opening score of 1-10 (or 1-20). At the beginning of your turn, you roll a single d10 (or d20), and may initiate any power that has Opening lesser than or equal to the number rolled. This restricts unlimited uses of powerful abilities, and also gets rid of the ability to nova your "dailies." It also nicely represents the idea of having to wait until your opponent leaves an opening, and allows a feint action, for example, to add, say, a +2 to your Opportunity roll...showing that you trick your opponent into leaving himself open.


Magic

Unlike Martial characters, spellcasters have access to all their abilities up front. However, every spell has a Recharge score of 1-20. At the beginning of your turn, you roll a single d20, and regain the use of any spell that has Recharge lesser than or equal to the number rolled. Thus, while Martial characters wait for the perfect opening, spellcasters quickly use up their arcane or divine power, and must wait for it to recover itself before their spells can be utilized a second time.


Opinions?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 12:11 PM
Alright. I had an idea at work today, which may prove an interesting system...or may prove to be so much garbage.

[...]

Opinions?

I like it. I really like it. It's intuitive, it's symmetric, and it mimics ToB without being a ripoff of the maneuver refresh thingy.

One interesting option to allow for some degree of attrition is to have the die size scale based on your level and not necessarily match the highest level you can use. Let's say there are levels from 1-21, and you can access 3 spell/technique levels per level (so a Fighter 1 can use L1, L2, and L3 techniques and a Fighter 7 can use them all). At 1st level he might roll 1d4-1, so he can use any of them but has a chance to only make a regular attack--the situation just isn't right. Next level, he gets 1d6-1, so he can use all but his highest-level techniques and still might have to make a regular attack. Carry that on through level 7, at which point he rolls 1d20; he always can use something, but he still doesn't get his best techniques without feinting or otherwise messing with his opponent.

That way, your best level of spells/techniques represent martial maneuvers that are practically impossible to pull off more than once per combat (unless you can get your opponent to leave himself open with feinting and such, and even then it's not guaranteed you'll refresh it) or spells that leave you mystically drained above and beyond the normal threshold. Characters would still have a reason to stop and rest every once and a while, but it would be like 3e wizards refreshing everything but 9th-level spells--yeah, they're nice to have, but if you can get your 7th- and 8th-level spells back, you can do without.

cnsvnc
2009-06-22, 12:58 PM
Stuff to dig thru. Whee.


Keep the G.
...
Wits would be better off as Perception.
...
No feats. Everything is from classes. Gotta work.
...
Now everyone is dual class. I think that's a fine middle way between the hatred of intricacy (supported by me) and the craving of character building (not supported by me).

At the moment, it is not possible for a character to multiclass or to enter a prestige class, as the end goal is to make any character concept valid from level 1 with no need to diversify further.
Good.

If the community deems it necessary, however, allowances for such an instance will at least be attempted.
I don't.
...
WP/HP is good enough naming.

HP is fully from paths, which is good. I'd be tempted to scrap WP and deal damage directly to Con but that'd make race ineffective on this matter. But Con=0 being the definition of death would be much neater than the arbitrary -10 WP.

In fact, now that I think on it, what'll be the exact deal with ability attacks? Will they all deal simple damage and/or add statuses? If I attack with my Dex against someone Int (making gestures so stupid it melts the brain) do I deal WP/HP damage? I'd say dealing ability damage would be better in such a case. But that'd translate to effectively having 6 kinds of WP (effects of changing scores can never take effect during combat, it's just not worth the time) plus HP. Ugh. Perhaps dealing WP damage with a successful Dex attack against an Int defense isn't so bad after all.
...
Bloodied and wounded as seperate statuses look good now, but they might prove to be headache. Should be tested.
...
Ability scores, modifiers, defenses and values make it pretty much a table on the sheet. Tables are poo. But I don't see how it can be avoided, and for some inexplicable reason, tables don't seem to bother people much as they ought to.
...
I can see the point buy behind it all from here. Oh well. I can always roll for myself, and a common base makes it easy to build on.
...
Just remove the skill caps and be done with it. Unless you put attacks that synergize with skills, it'll be fine, no one in their right mind would pour all skill points into one or two skills. Skill caps only apply to players anyway, NPCs will be as skilled as necessary.
...
I like teamwork.
...
I don't like having an exception in opposed rolls. But it seems to work and I don't have a better idea.
...
As I've said before, the number of powers that exist should be restricted arbitrary for the sake of sanity. Now that feats are gone, things look good. If there's a total of 10 paths, it'll be 70 powers. I imagine there'll be choices of weapons and magic styles which can bump it all the way to 100 or so. A few duplicates here and there won't hurt anyone, so I think we won't have a
FAIL
like 4e on our hands.
...
A recharge mechanic would be good. But it'll add an extra roll per turn per combatant, which seems unbearable to me. But if recharging is not compulsory or automatic, then it's a yes.

Use a % and assign every power level a recharge rate. Don't discriminate between magic and martial. Find a name for this action like Refocusing or something, and make it a full round action. Roll % then choose a power with lower rate than your % that was expended and it's back.
Eyeball:
L1 yes
L2 %15
L3 %30
L4 %50
L5 %75
L6 %95
L7 no
You know, I think I like it this way. Only problem with this is healing. Making an exception to actual WP healing powers, no scratch it, making actual WP healing powers to L7 removes that problem as well. Got no qualms against full HP on every combat.
...

That seems about it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-22, 11:17 PM
I'll be addressing those points later...but for now...

Possible Weaponry Plan

The levels of proficiency are as follows. Each +1 applies to both Damage and your Opening roll.

Untrained +0
Trained +1
Skilled +2
Mastered +3

Each weapon has four powers, with Openings of, respectively, 3, 6, 9, and 12.

This means that a character who has Mastered a weapon or is Skilled in a weapon is never out of at least a basic option, and can access the Opening 12 power with a bit of effort. A character who is Untrained may have to resort to a basic attack, and will rarely, if ever, get the opportunity to utilize the best powers.

An example might be as follows (the powers are roughly explained, not statted completely):


Rapier

3-Lunging Strike: Attack with reach +1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters)

6-Beat Attack: Everyone gains +1 Opening against the target until the end of your next turn or a Martial attack hits your target.

9-Disengage: If you hit, deal normal damage. If you miss, roll again vs. Intellect to hit for normal damage.

12-Pierce the Heart: Deal normal damage plus 2 additional damage, and the target gains persistent 3 (bleeding) (save ends). If the attack misses, deal 1 + Character Level + Dexterity damage.

lesser_minion
2009-06-23, 05:32 AM
That is actually quite an interesting mechanic.

It makes characters wait for an opportunity, provides a workaround to the whole 'opportunity cost' issue (the most powerful attacks need a better opportunity, rather than being less likely to work), and I really like the idea of cutting weapons back to around 25 main types with unique options attached to each.

I guess all I can really say is:

Excellent work, keep it up!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 08:08 AM
1) How are you handling redundant weapons? That is, will you be including handaxe and battleaxe, or light flail and heavy flail, and so on and just giving them different abilities, or will you remove all the duplicated weapons?

Actually, never mind that; could you post a tentative list of weapons so we could see what kinds of abilities there might be?

2) Having a standard 3/6/9/12 progression raises the possibility of decreasing the opening rather than granting a bonus to the roll; I'm picturing a skillful weapon enchantment that lowers the progression to 1/3/9/12 to allow unskilled wielders to use some techniques, for instance. Thoughts?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-23, 11:19 AM
1) How are you handling redundant weapons? That is, will you be including handaxe and battleaxe, or light flail and heavy flail, and so on and just giving them different abilities, or will you remove all the duplicated weapons?

Actually, never mind that; could you post a tentative list of weapons so we could see what kinds of abilities there might be?

2) Having a standard 3/6/9/12 progression raises the possibility of decreasing the opening rather than granting a bonus to the roll; I'm picturing a skillful weapon enchantment that lowers the progression to 1/3/9/12 to allow unskilled wielders to use some techniques, for instance. Thoughts?


1) A partially complete first draft of the weapon list is below...some duplicate weapons with obvious similarities in use (maces, for example) have been removed. Others with slightly less similar techniques (Longswords vs. Shortswords) have been left alone. Each is also followed by some basic ideas for the styles associated with the weapon.

-Rapier (Rapier, Smallsword, Foil, Epee): Swift, light, dexterous. Good for feinting and precise strikes
-Mace (Light Mace, Heavy Mace, Morningstar, Club): Heavy and fairly powerful. Blunt impacts, stunning, and dazing style actions.
-Quarterstaff (Quarterstaff): Has good reach and speed. Can attack multiple foes.
-Whip (Whip): Excellent reach. Pulls, restrains, and grabs.
-Scimitar (Scimitar, Falchion, Saber, Katana): Fast and fairly powerful. Sharp edges, severe cutting power.
-Spear (Shortspear, Longspear, Javelin): Reach, and able to be thrown.
-Warhammer (Light Hammer, Warhammer): Heavy and powerful weapons. Similiar to Maces in many ways.
-Dagger (Dagger, Punching Dagger, Throwing Knife, Knife): Fast and precise. Able to be thrown.
-Broadsword (Longsword, traditional D&D Greatsword): Solid, all-around weapons. Capable of powerful strikes and cleaving.
-Dirk (Shortsword, Parrying Dirk): Small, semi-dexterous weapons. A hybrid of Daggers and Broadswords.
-Battleaxe (Battleaxe, Greataxe): Powerful, high cutting power weaponry.
-Handaxe (Handaxe, Throwing Axe): Fairly powerful light weapons. Able to be thrown.
-Cutlass (Cutlass, Machete, Cleaver, Heavy Kukri): Heavy, sharp, high cutting power weapons. Smaller and faster than axes.
-Greatsword (Claymore, No-dachi): Tremendously large swords, similiar to Broadswords but with reach options.
-Longbow (Longbow): Long range bows, relying mainly on Dexterity. Emphasis on accuracy.
-Composite Longbow (Composite Longbow): Long range bows, relying largely on Dexterity, and largely on Strength. Emphasis on raw power over extreme accuracy.

...anything I'm obviously missing that we want around? I know I'm missing some stuff, but I'm looking for input here on needed and/or beloved weapons.

2) Distinctly possible. I'll have to see how I decide to refine the mechanics...but I'll definitely keep this in mind.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 12:28 PM
-Longbow (Longbow): Long range bows, relying mainly on Dexterity. Emphasis on accuracy.
-Composite Longbow (Composite Longbow): Long range bows, relying largely on Dexterity, and largely on Strength. Emphasis on raw power over extreme accuracy.

...anything I'm obviously missing that we want around? I know I'm missing some stuff, but I'm looking for input here on needed and/or beloved weapons.

I'm noting a lack of crossbows. I could see the Longbow focusing more on range and volume of shots (the "volley of arrows" schtick) whereas the crossbow does accuracy and power at the expense of speed--it would be a "range, accuracy, power, speed, pick two" kind of thing. Now, crossbows aren't absolutely necessary, so if you're intentionally leaving them out that's fine, but given their prominence in many armies (since any old peasant can pick one up and use it) and the advantage of being able to load one and keep it ready, I think it would be good to have.

cnsvnc
2009-06-23, 01:26 PM
Polearms (ranseur, halberd, trident, partisan, awl pike, bill hook, corseque, fauchard, military fork, fauchard-fork, naginata, nagamaki, fukoro yari, voulge, scythe, bardiche, poleaxe, lochaber axe, bohemian earspoon, bec de corbin, ox tongue, spetum, glaive, guisarme, glaive-guisarme, guisarme-glaive, glaive-guisarme-glaive, glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive, longspear, lucern hammer): Reach and power. Yes, what I really wanted was to write all of the polearms, G7 be damned...

Athaniar
2009-06-23, 02:07 PM
Also, you have Longbow but not Shortbow. Should they be one or two categories?

One more thing: would the flail be in the Mace category or a category of its own?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-23, 02:14 PM
Also, you have Longbow but not Shortbow. Should they be one or two categories?

One more thing: would the flail be in the Mace category or a category of its own?

One category for the bows...the difference is marginal: trading a few feet of range for the ability to wield it while mounted does not, in my mind, merit its own writeup.

Flails I have yet to determine.

Crossbows will indeed be coming. That was an omission on my part.

Regarding polearms...I'm not yet certain how many I'm including, as many of them function in similiar ways. Given that huge list...perhaps single out one or two different styles (hook, axe-blade, and so forth) that you'd like to see? I'll admit I'm not familiar with many of them, so I wouldn't know how to stat them out. Therefore, one to three desired polearms and a brief description of the weapon would be quite helpful. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 02:18 PM
One more thing: would the flail be in the Mace category or a category of its own?

I'd put it in either the mace category (for skull-bashing goodness) or Whips (for all of the chains and entangling stuff, which is common in fiction albeit slightly implausible), but I don't think it needs its own category.


Regarding polearms...I'm not yet certain how many I'm including, as many of them function in similiar ways. Given that huge list...perhaps single out one or two different styles (hook, axe-blade, and so forth) that you'd like to see? I'll admit I'm not familiar with many of them, so I wouldn't know how to stat them out. Therefore, one to three desired polearms and a brief description of the weapon would be quite helpful.

Really, reach weapons come in one of three varieties: sword-on-a-stick, dagger-on-a-stick, and hammer-on-a-stick. The thing they have in common is reach, but after that you can give them generic slashing/piercing/bludgeoning or cutlass/spear/warhammer abilities without needing to overemphasize polearm specialness.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-23, 02:21 PM
I'd put it in either the mace category (for skull-bashing goodness) or Whips (for all of the chains and entangling stuff, which is common in fiction albeit slightly implausible), but I don't think it needs its own category.

Good thoughts.




Really, reach weapons come in one of three varieties: sword-on-a-stick, dagger-on-a-stick, and hammer-on-a-stick. The thing they have in common is reach, but after that you can give them generic slashing/piercing/bludgeoning or cutlass/spear/warhammer abilities without needing to overemphasize polearm specialness.

Hmmm...Dagger-on-a-stick is covered by Spear, in my mind. Sword-on-a-stick is a cross of Spear/Axe-on-a-stick (which I have seen), and the rules for the Greatsword (as Claymores and the like had truly impressive range). So we need Hammer-on-a-Stick and Axe-on-a-Stick, and maybe some of the stranger, more esoteric ones if I'm feeling creative later on. :smallbiggrin:

Also, a sample weapon (the Rapier) will be up shortly.

Knaight
2009-06-23, 02:45 PM
Your missing the Sling, Atlatl, thrown weapons, etc.

I would just have heavy thrown and light thrown for thrown, Sling and Atlatl could just be range modifiers. And Slings can get to a really impressive range.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-23, 02:50 PM
Rapier
Type: Thrusting
Hands: 1
Weight: 2 lbs. (1 kg)
Cost: ??

Basic Attack (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 1
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.

Lunging Strike (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 3
Target 1 creature or object within reach + 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters)
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.
Benefit You may take a 1 square (5 foot/1.5 meter) Adjustment towards your target.

Piercing Thrust (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 6
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity, Intellect, or Perception vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. You deal additional damage equal to either your Intellect or Perception modifier (up to a maximum equal to your target's Martial Resistance).
Benefit Your opponent suffers a -1 penalty to Martial Resistance against your attacks for 1 round.

Disengaging Attack (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 9
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. Until the end of your next turn you gain a stacking +1 Power bonus to your Opening against the target of this attack.
Miss Make an Martial Offense Roll against the target (Dexterity vs. Perception). If successful, you deal 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.

Perfect Form (Thrust; Stance)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 12
Target 1 creature or object within reach; personal
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.
Benefit Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make an immediate free reaction Basic attack with a rapier against any creature that attempts a melee Martial attack against you. If your attack hits you gain a stacking +2 Power bonus to all Defenses against the incoming attack.


*****

I'm also considering giving an additional Opening 3 power to not shoehorn characters in the event of a low roll. Another possibility would be to give an Opening 15 "finishing move" that would be incredibly powerful, but really only useful against stunned, held, or otherwise immobilized foes. Alternatively, both of these possibilities could be implemented.

The reason I ask this is because...well...I find designing these weapon to be mildly addictive. :smallbiggrin:

Athaniar
2009-06-23, 06:08 PM
I really like this whole weapon thing. Keep it up.

cnsvnc
2009-06-23, 07:21 PM
Piercing Thrust (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 6
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity, Intellect, or Perception vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. You deal additional damage equal to either your Intellect or Perception modifier (up to a maximum equal to your target's Martial Resistance).
Benefit Your opponent suffers a -1 penalty to Martial Resistance against your attacks for 1 round.
What is Perception? I know it's renamed Wits, you gotta edit the OP.
Why benefit? You dealt the damage already, you're not getting another attack (I hope).


Disengaging Attack (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 9
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. Until the end of your next turn you gain a stacking +1 Power bonus to your Opening against the target of this attack.
Miss Make an Martial Offense Roll against the target (Dexterity vs. Perception). If successful, you deal 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.
So you just attack weaker of Dex or Per. Miss part is somewhat superflous.


Another possibility would be to give an Opening 15 "finishing move" that would be incredibly powerful, but really only useful against stunned, held, or otherwise immobilized foes.
No. It's just a coup de grace anyway. Let them eat fluff.

And 5 powers per weapon should be enough. Maybe even more than enough. 4 should be sufficient. Remember that every weapon included will need powers. And as addictive as it may seem, you're likely to hit your limit. You had 16, 5 more have been suggested, 5 for each makes 100+ powers for weapons alone. Seems a recipe for FAIL to me.

Trimming down weapons to 10 or so and doing 4 powers each will be a much more reasonable total around 40. Or you can drop the basic attacks completely. We don't actually need anything but xdy of weapons for that anyway. Plus you can add another op3 power in the saved space.

Daggers (knives, daggers, dirks, katars)
Light blades (short sword, rapier)
Medium blades (longsword, katana, scimitar)
Large blades (greatsword, claymore)
Axes (all kinds)
Bashers (maces, clubs, hammers, flails, morningstars)
Polearms (spears, halberds, all pointy metal pieces on a stick)
Staves
Bows (all kinds)
Crossbows
and maybe Thrown Weapons if you can actually make up something interesting using those
No whips because seriously, who uses them?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 09:55 PM
Why benefit? You dealt the damage already, you're not getting another attack (I hope).

It lasts for a round, so it includes your next turn.


And 5 powers per weapon should be enough. Maybe even more than enough. 4 should be sufficient. Remember that every weapon included will need powers. And as addictive as it may seem, you're likely to hit your limit. You had 16, 5 more have been suggested, 5 for each makes 100+ powers for weapons alone. Seems a recipe for FAIL to me.

Trimming down weapons to 10 or so and doing 4 powers each will be a much more reasonable total around 40.

It shouldn't be too much. There are 2,857 spells in 3e (trust me, I collected and counted them all for my revision), so coming up with 100 new ideas is trivial by comparison. There are around 270 ToB maneuvers, so there are at least, say, 200 or so unique martial abilities he could use.


Or you can drop the basic attacks completely. We don't actually need anything but xdy of weapons for that anyway. Plus you can add another op3 power in the saved space.

This I do agree with. I'd drop the basic attack idea and simply give weapons passive properties (+2 to trip with whips, +1 damage against heavy armor or natural armor with maces, etc.) so you can represent their differences without making them all too fancy.

cnsvnc
2009-06-23, 10:48 PM
There are 2,857 spells in 3e

Which is one of the main reasons it sucks. Also, 4E blows so hard because of pages upon pages of powers, it can be described as nothing but FAIL

oxinabox
2009-06-24, 02:30 AM
I love the idea of each differnt weapon having differnet uses.
I heard somewhere the 2e had something vaguely like that.

Sounding great, keep up the good work.

Rion
2009-06-24, 04:14 AM
What about Pollaxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollaxe_(Polearm))? There aren't one specific form, but the one I'm talking about is the last one.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/176/1573554129d672c4deaf.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/1573554129d672c4deaf.jpg/)http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6696/1573554643d0d015b108.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/1573554643d0d015b108.jpg/)http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8561/jbpa1.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/jbpa1.jpg/)http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2576/poleaxe.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/i/poleaxe.jpg/)
You could have the "low" attacks either grant bonii to the next opening roll or be tripping attempts, with the "higher" attacks being "proper" attacks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqCM68-UoUA) with the pollaxe.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-24, 09:13 AM
Why benefit? You dealt the damage already, you're not getting another attack (I hope).

As previously stated...it lasts for 1 extra round. :smallbiggrin:


So you just attack weaker of Dex or Per. Miss part is somewhat superflous.

Nope. You roll vs. Dex, and, if you miss, you roll vs. Perception. So it's not one attack against the lowest defense: it's a second chance to hit a new defense.


No. It's just a coup de grace anyway. Let them eat fluff.

Good point.


And 5 powers per weapon should be enough. Maybe even more than enough. 4 should be sufficient. Remember that every weapon included will need powers. And as addictive as it may seem, you're likely to hit your limit. You had 16, 5 more have been suggested, 5 for each makes 100+ powers for weapons alone. Seems a recipe for FAIL to me.

I disagree with this, actually. True, 4e had a lot of powers...but you don't see players complaining about the amount of options presented in the Tome of Battle, for example. And that's around 270, as previously mentioned. In fact, I often see people complaining the list isn't extensive enough.

Also, bear this in mind. With the way weapon powers are written, it's not as much of a choice. I could, in fact, increase the Opening roll by level, grant a fighter bonuses to it, and have Openings all the way up to, say, 20 or 25...AND IT WOULDN'T BE A BIG ISSUE. Why? They're preselected. You don't have to look through pages and pages of material...you need to pick up a weapon. That's it. Imagine how simple Tome of Battle would have been if it was "Choose a school. Gain access to all maneuvers from that school." That's the level of simplicity we're talking about here.

...actually (not saying I'm definitely doing this), that would be a great way to give fighters some kick-ass powers at higher levels without having them have to come from the class itself...

Yakk
2009-06-24, 09:50 AM
Teamwork and Flanking
Bad rules. It makes melee stack with melee better than it does with casters.

Instead, you could have a rule that you get +1 to attack a target for each previous attacker of the target since the start of the target's last turn. This represents the target's cumulating distracting, be it from swords spells or arrows.

You could even have a scale concept: you divide the number of previous attackers by the target's scale to get your bonus to hit it. This works for "large" opponents who are legion in themselves.


Opposed Ability ChecksI seriously think that having a unified mechanic makes sense. Even if you have to lower the magnitude of your attributes or something.

Having that many systems is overly fiddly.

One idea is to set your attack modifier to (stat-10)+level. And your defence to (stat+5)+level. With stat going from 10 to 15, you have a 50% chance of hitting your even-level opponents weakest defence if you are fighting one-on-one and have no bonuses.

Toss in more attack bonuses than defence bonuses (teamwork, for one, will be large), and you can deal with the wiff factor nicely. Even something simple, like giving tools proficiency bonuses (so you can say that a rapier is more accurate than a battleaxe) would move hitting a middle-attribute of an opponent to a 50-50 chance.

Ability ValueYou didn't specify how ability modifiers are calculated, or how abilities are.

I'm guessing you have one ability at 10, another at 11, all the way up to 15?


Martial powers have an Opening score of 1-10 (or 1-20). At the beginning of your turn, you roll a single d10 (or d20), and may initiate any power that has Opening lesser than or equal to the number rolled. This restricts unlimited uses of powerful abilities, and also gets rid of the ability to nova your "dailies." It also nicely represents the idea of having to wait until your opponent leaves an opening, and allows a feint action, for example, to add, say, a +2 to your Opportunity roll...showing that you trick your opponent into leaving himself open.I'd rather assign Martial Powers opening numbers. And then make you have to roll the number to use the opening.

You'd have an opening list -- with maybe 10 cells in it.

Each Martial Trick would have an opening count -- the number of cells you can put it in your opening list.

Each round you roll a single d10 -- and can use any power listed in that opening cell.

This makes a given Trick easier or harder to pull off -- but doesn't order them strictly. You could also give more expert users multiple d10s.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-24, 11:23 AM
Teamwork and Flanking
Bad rules. It makes melee stack with melee better than it does with casters.

Really? Could you explain?


Instead, you could have a rule that you get +1 to attack a target for each previous attacker of the target since the start of the target's last turn. This represents the target's cumulating distracting, be it from swords spells or arrows.

Hmmm. A good alternative, and one I was considering with Archers before going with the current plan. I may readopt this.


You could even have a scale concept: you divide the number of previous attackers by the target's scale to get your bonus to hit it. This works for "large" opponents who are legion in themselves.

A little TO much math there, in my mind.


I seriously think that having a unified mechanic makes sense. Even if you have to lower the magnitude of your attributes or something.

Having that many systems is overly fiddly.

One idea is to set your attack modifier to (stat-10)+level. And your defence to (stat+5)+level. With stat going from 10 to 15, you have a 50% chance of hitting your even-level opponents weakest defence if you are fighting one-on-one and have no bonuses.

It could work...except that causes problems when attacking weak-to-high. If I have a 15 Strength attacking a 10 Dexterity, I'm hitting +6 vs. 16. If I have a poor strength (10) attacking a 15 Dexterity, I'm rolling +1 vs. 21.

As written, the biggest jump (Str 16 vs. Dex 11, or the opposite, using standard D&D modifiers) is as follows:

Str 16 vs. Dex 11: +4 vs. 12 (8+ hits)
Str 11 vs. Dex 16: +1 vs 17 (16+ hits)

But your next point:


Toss in more attack bonuses than defence bonuses (teamwork, for one, will be large), and you can deal with the wiff factor nicely. Even something simple, like giving tools proficiency bonuses (so you can say that a rapier is more accurate than a battleaxe) would move hitting a middle-attribute of an opponent to a 50-50 chance.
You didn't specify how ability modifiers are calculated, or how abilities are.

Is a good one. I'll consider it.



I'd rather assign Martial Powers opening numbers. And then make you have to roll the number to use the opening.

You'd have an opening list -- with maybe 10 cells in it.

Each Martial Trick would have an opening count -- the number of cells you can put it in your opening list.

Each round you roll a single d10 -- and can use any power listed in that opening cell.

This makes a given Trick easier or harder to pull off -- but doesn't order them strictly. You could also give more expert users multiple d10s.

This I don't like for 1 reason. Firstly, more random tables. Secondly, it removes my ability to grant abilities that fiddle with the Opening Value in as precise a manner. I like the ability to grant +X bonuses to Opening, or -X penalties, based on what you do during your turn.

Athaniar
2009-06-24, 11:29 AM
Concerning weapons: what about Unarmed?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-24, 11:34 AM
Concerning weapons: what about Unarmed?

I already have plans for unarmed. Unarmed will be one of two things:

1: A series of feats (if I decide to include feats or a similiar concept).
2: A special proficiency.

It will look much like Weapons...with one major difference. There will be no "unarmed" weapon. Instead, you'll get things similiar to the Tome of Battle disciplines. You won't be a specialist in "unarmed" combat...you'll have mastered the, say (pulling out an arbitrary, ToBish name here), Stone Fist style, emphasizing powerful blows and immovability.

cnsvnc
2009-06-24, 12:30 PM
They're preselected.

Hmm. Yes, I'm convinced about the numbers. The problem of actually making up stuff is still there however. Hopefully, your addiction and the occasional help from random posters will prove enough.

Also, I'm still iffy about having everyone roll every round for opening. There must be a way to cut down on the amount of rolling. Mayhaps tie reusabiliy to Op values somehow; each weapon power may be used again after its Op value (possibly minus fighter lvl or something) number of rounds? Could be a way to integrate stuff like weapon focus, specialization, etc...


I love the idea of each differnt weapon having differnet uses.
I heard somewhere the 2e had something vaguely like that.
I think it's weapon speeds you're talking about. They modified the initiative order.

Yakk
2009-06-24, 01:16 PM
Really? Could you explain?
4 melee characters attacking an Ogre.
They all have +3 to hit.
3 melee characters and one spellcasters attacking an Ogre.
The melee have +2 to hit, the spellcaster has +0.

If there is already an imbalance -- say, melee classes are slightly better than spellcasters -- mechanics like this make it worse.

Hmmm. A good alternative, and one I was considering with Archers before going with the current plan. I may readopt this.
The goal here is that you are 'interfering' with your target by attacking it.


A little TO much math there, in my mind.
Agreed. The scale factor was intended to avoid "it is a monster the size of a city. You attack it with 300 attackers, you get +299 to hit."

Which quickly gets silly.

It could work...except that causes problems when attacking weak-to-high. If I have a 15 Strength attacking a 10 Dexterity, I'm hitting +6 vs. 16. If I have a poor strength (10) attacking a 15 Dexterity, I'm rolling +1 vs. 21.
Except weak shouldn't be an attack stat.

Players will choose their attack stats based on their stats. The case above would be analogous to a Wizard trying to trip an Acrobat with his staff.

Weak stat Wizard (Str 10) attacking strong stat of Acrobat (Dex 15).

In short: you get to pick your attacks, but your opponent gets to pick what defence they target. So there being 'bad choices' of attacks is less of a problem.


But your next point:

Is a good one. I'll consider it.
Steal the page from 4e -- have a modifier budget. And heck, avoid players having to spend resources getting mere static modifiers to d20 rolls (because while powerful, they are boring).

Imagine you attack a random stat of the target, whose stats go from 10 to 15. And you use your high stat.

The average DC is 17.5.
Your modifier is +6. So you hit on a 11.5 on average.

Make tools grant a +1 to +2 bonus to hit (low accuracy = +1, high accuracy = +2), and that moves your modifier up to +7.5. You now hit on a 10 on average.

Which is pretty decent.

As a side benefit, know that +5 modifier? That could be your passive value for the defence! Actively, you roll d20+stat -- ie, if someone burns their action to resist your attack, they defend by rolling d20+stat against your attack roll.


This I don't like for 1 reason. Firstly, more random tables. Secondly, it removes my ability to grant abilities that fiddle with the Opening Value in as precise a manner. I like the ability to grant +X bonuses to Opening, or -X penalties, based on what you do during your turn.*nod*, but it is a player-built table. They define their martial combat style using it.

The table would be a player-based thing -- something to fiddle with. :) You could imagine building combos for a particular die roll.

And you could have abilities that give you extra Opening dice to roll.

The same kind of thing could happen for arcane characters. You start combat with a set of spells prepared: which is less than the spells you know. When you cast a spell, it is burnt. Each round, you roll a d10 and can pick any spell there to replace a spell you have prepared or burnt.

A downside to the method presented is that your character can reliably get the lowest openings. Every round. Which both makes them not that 'opening' based, and basically turns it into a static bonus that doesn't apply when you try a fancier move.

Imagine if you screw up, and the opening 6+ move is much better than the opening 9+/12+ move.

Now characters will never do the opening 9+/12+ move -- because they would rather do 6+.

Now, imagine if the 3+ move was a 4 pip move, the 6+ move was a 3 pip move, the 9+ was a 2 pip move, and the 12+ was a 1 pip move.

You could now fill the entire d10 with moves:
1-4 A
5-7 B
8-9 C
10 D

Even if the move B (which was 6+) was better than the 9+ and 12+ (because the designer screwed up), having the C and D move makes your character better so long as C and D are better than a basic attack.

Penalties to your opening moves could include rolling a d12 or d20 instead of a d10. Bonuses could include rolling multiple dice, and being able to pick any of the dice you rolled as the opening you want to use.

rampaging-poet
2009-06-24, 05:30 PM
*nod*, but it is a player-built table. They define their martial combat style using it.

The table would be a player-based thing -- something to fiddle with. :) You could imagine building combos for a particular die roll.

And you could have abilities that give you extra Opening dice to roll.

The same kind of thing could happen for arcane characters. You start combat with a set of spells prepared: which is less than the spells you know. When you cast a spell, it is burnt. Each round, you roll a d10 and can pick any spell there to replace a spell you have prepared or burnt.

A downside to the method presented is that your character can reliably get the lowest openings. Every round. Which both makes them not that 'opening' based, and basically turns it into a static bonus that doesn't apply when you try a fancier move.

Imagine if you screw up, and the opening 6+ move is much better than the opening 9+/12+ move.

Now characters will never do the opening 9+/12+ move -- because they would rather do 6+.

Now, imagine if the 3+ move was a 4 pip move, the 6+ move was a 3 pip move, the 9+ was a 2 pip move, and the 12+ was a 1 pip move.

You could now fill the entire d10 with moves:
1-4 A
5-7 B
8-9 C
10 D

Even if the move B (which was 6+) was better than the 9+ and 12+ (because the designer screwed up), having the C and D move makes your character better so long as C and D are better than a basic attack.

Penalties to your opening moves could include rolling a d12 or d20 instead of a d10. Bonuses could include rolling multiple dice, and being able to pick any of the dice you rolled as the opening you want to use.

I've seen a system like this toyed with on another message board I lurk. For the most part, it's a balanced system, but people found a couple of problems with it. The system works alright when modelling melee combat and your attacks are "Backstab" and "Disarm". If Backstab didn't come up, the enemy was always facing you, and if Disarm didn't come up, he held his weapon too tight. However, it breaks down as soon as you've got a wizard with "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt". If he's fighting a Red Dragon, he doesn't want to be casting Fireball, but if Lightning Bolt doesn't come up, he's forced to resort to hitting the thing with his staff or whatever basic attack wizards get.

The other problem is that the Winds of Fate (as the other board called it) does not allow for any real planning. Yeah, you can set it up so that everything on a roll of 3 works well together, but you can't decide upon a plan over multiple rounds because you don't have any idea what attacks you'll be able to use when your turn comes up again.

However, I really like the idea of expending manoeuvres and having random recharge. That way you still don't know exactly what you'll be able to do, but you have a few abilities ready to make plans with. It stops you from spamming the absolute most effective attack on every single turn without taking all the strategy out of the game. In fact, it would be a lot like a trading card game in that you have a small number of readied abilities you can use now, and a number sitting in the deck (or whatever) that you know you'll be able to pull off at some point, but you don't know when.

Actually, making a deck of cards for each player would be a great (though time-consuming) thing to do. If every card has an ability on it, and you have a hand of three cards, that gives you three things you can do whenever. Once you use an ability, you draw another and shuffle the one you just used back into the deck.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-25, 12:28 AM
Revised (and final, I believe) weapon format. Here's the revised Rapier and the Quarterstaff.

Basic: This tells you what the stats used for a Basic attack are. The first clause is the attack stat and targeted defense (Dexterity vs. Dexterity, for example). It is followed by the stat added to damage, and then the attack type (Bash/Pierce/Slash/Thrust).

Incidentally, the final power doesn't have to be a stance. Any power can be a stance...these just both happen to culminate in stances.



Rapier
Basic: Dexterity vs. Dexterity (+Dexterity, Pierce/Slash/Thrust)
Hands: 1
Weight: 2 lbs. (1 kg)
Cost: ??

Deep Wound (Pierce/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 3
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. The target gains persistent 1 (bleeding) for 1 round.

Lunging Strike (Pierce/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 3
Target 1 creature or object within reach + 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters)
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.
Benefit You may take a 1 square (5 foot/1.5 meter) Adjustment towards your target.

Seeking Point (Pierce/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 6
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity, Intellect, or Perception vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. You deal additional damage equal to either your Intellect or Perception modifier (up to a maximum equal to your target's Martial Resistance).
Benefit Your opponent suffers a -1 penalty to Martial Resistance against your attacks for 1 round.

Disengaging Attack (Pierce/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 9
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage. Until the end of your next turn you gain a stacking +1 Power bonus to your Opening against the target of this attack.
Miss Make an Martial Offense Roll against the target (Dexterity vs. Perception). If successful, you deal 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.

Reprisal of Steel (Stance)
Move--Martial, Melee
Opening 12
Target personal
Benefit Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make an immediate free reaction Basic Attack (rapier) against any creature that attempts a melee Martial Offense against you. If your attack hits you gain a stacking +2 Power bonus to all Defenses against the incoming attack.



Quarterstaff
Basic: Strength or Dexterity vs. Dexterity (+Strength, Bash/Thrust)
Hands: 2
Weight: 4 lbs. (2 kg)
Cost: ??

Forceful Thrust (Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 3
Target 1 creature or object within reach + 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters)
Offense Strength or Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Strength modifier Martial damage. You may Push the target 1 square (5 feet/1.5 meters).

Defensive Sweep (Bash)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 3
Target 1 creature or object within reach
Offense Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Dexterity modifier Martial damage.
Benefit You gain a +1 Power bonus to all Defenses against the next Martial Offense against you this turn.

Twofold Strike (Bash/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 6
Target 1 or 2 creatures or objects within reach
Offense Strength or Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Strength modifier Martial damage.
Miss If you target only a single creature and your attack misses, you may make a Basic Attack (quarterstaff) as a free action. Or would it be more balanced (given what you've seen so far) to make this a +1 or +2 bonus instead?

Whirling Staff (Bash/Thrust)
Standard--Martial, Melee
Opening 9
Target any number of adjacent creatures or objects
Offense Strength or Dexterity vs. Dexterity
Effect 1d8 + Character Level + Strength modifier Martial damage.
Miss If you miss a creature with an attack, your next successful Offense Roll as part of this action deals +1 damage. If you miss every target, you fall prone.

Hurricane of Staves (Stance)
Move--Martial, Melee
Opening 12
Target personal
Benefit Until the beginning of your next turn, you gain Reach +1 (5 feet/1.5 meters). Any time until the beginning of your next turn that you take an Opportunity Action and hit with a Basic Attack (quarterstaff), you also knock your opponent prone.

lesser_minion
2009-07-01, 06:13 AM
I think I was planning on writing combat rules based on various groups of weapons, with melee weapons in each group ranked by size to give (the names are intended to be as generic as possible, as each entry could represent a variety of subtly different weapons):


Knife Hunting Knife (many short swords and long daggers) Fighting Sword (generic sword from 60 - 100 cm in length, covering the gladius and a few of the shorter western swords) War sword (includes several types of longsword, the katana, and a few other things) Great Sword (a large, two-handed sword) Staff-blade? (Includes the naginata, glaive, military bill and other sword/knife blades mounted on long hafts)


Hand Axe (small, light axe) Fighting Axe (a military axe usable in one hand) Battle Axe (a heavy axe, designed for two-handed use but also usable one-handed) Double Axe (a very heavy axe requiring two hands to wield for a human) Great Axe (includes most of the early middle-ages axes, such as those used with some success at the Battle of Hastings. Can also approximate a halberd and a few similar polearms)


Javelin (a spear shorter than even the halfspear, with a 0.4-0.6m haft) Halfspear (a spear with a haft of about 1.2 - 1.4 metres - easily thrown and usable one-handed) Fighting Spear (a longer spear, still just about usable one-handed, but tricky to throw. Roughly equivalent to both the 3.0 shortspear and the 3.0 light lance) Lance - a long, heavy spear. Cannot be thrown, but offers both reach and cavalry benefits. Approximates both the 3.0 longspear and the 3.0 heavy lance.


Fencing Dagger (includes parrying or left-handed daggers) Fencing Sword (There is more of a difference between the epee, foil and rapier than this, but I didn't join the fencing club, so I don't know them)


Light hammer (small hammer, easily suited to throwing) Fighting hammer (includes the mace. One-handed hammer) War hammer (a heavy hammer, often wielded two-handed but usable in one hand. Compare war sword, battle axe) Great Hammer (massive hammer, suitable only for two-handed use) Giant hammer (a truly enormous hammer, and about the limit of what a warrior can wield. Includes the Lucern hammer. Compare great axe and 'staff-blade')



Hand Crossbow (a very small crossbow, balanced and designed for one-handed use. Includes similar weapons fitted with some form of self loading mechanism) Light Crossbow (Easily usable in one hand, but very short ranged. Moderate damage and armour piercing) Crossbow (an intermediate crossbow, just about usable one-handed) Heavy Crossbow (a larger crossbow, usable only in both hands. Deals a lot of damage)



Hunting Bow (a lightweight bow, usable on foot or while mounted) Rider's bow (a powerful yet lightweight bow, similar to those used by mongols and parthians.) Rider's longbow (includes the asymmetric longbow used by historical samurai) Longbow (a very large laminated bow, too large to use while mounted. Does more damage than the rider's longbow)



Crossbows and bows aren't that likely to have lots of different techniques associated with each type unfortunately. They could still be pretty cool, however. I've omitted the club (hand), staff (heavy), quarterstaff (great), sling and staff sling from this list as well.

You might want to eliminate the distinction between 'hand' and 'heavy' weapons, but this was really the smallest weapon list I could think up. It includes six 'classes' - stealth, light, hand, heavy, great and polearm. For small characters, this changes so Stealth = Light, Light = Hand, Hand or Heavy = Great, Heavy or Great = Polearm (this is intended to vaguely resemble the 3e system). Polearm-class weapons for a character grant a size increase for the purposes of reach (with no short-haft penalties or restrictions).

I also had an alternate armour system worked out, which you can feel free to use. I don't know exactly what you plan to do with 'armour bonuses' and 'encumbrance penalties', however:

To create a suit of armour, simply pick a primary, secondary and tertiary element from the following list. Simple cloth is also available to replace any component, providing no armour bonus.

Typically, the primary element represents that part of the armour covering the torso and possibly the head, the secondary element covers the thighs and arms, and the tertiary component represents any additional armour covering remaining weak points.

Soft Leather or Padded armour:
Primary: Provides a +1 armour bonus Secondary: Provides a +1 armour bonus Tertiary: Provides no benefit


Hardened leather, hide or wooden armour:
Primary: Provides a +2 armour bonus, but imposes a -1 encumbrance penalty. Secondary: Provides a +1 armour bonus Tertiary: Provides a +1 armour bonus


Reinforced leather or leather scale armour:
Primary: Provides a +3 armour bonus but imposes a -2 encumbrance penalty Secondary: Provides a +2 armour bonus but imposes a -1 armour check penalty Tertiary: Provides a +1 armour bonus


Metal Scale or Chain armour:
Primary: Provides a +4 armour bonus, but incurs a -3 encumbrance penalty Secondary: Provides a +2 armour bonus, but imposes a -1 check penalty Tertiary: Provides a +1 armour bonus

Metal Plate:
Primary: Incurs a -4 encumbrance penalty, but provides a +5 armour bonus Secondary: Incurs a -2 encumbrance penalty, but provides a +3 armour bonus Tertiary: Incurs a -1 check penalty, but provides a +2 armour bonus


The listed encumbrance penalties are higher than the corresponding 3.x/4e armour check penalties, because I was planning to use a modified encumbrance system where all aspects of encumbrance - are tied to the same number in different ways.