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Thrawn183
2009-06-26, 11:22 AM
Alright, so my friends and I were thinking about different super heroes and we were trying to decide on which was the strongest super hero that doesn't rely on: regeneration, telekinesis, reality altering powers, time travel or anything else similar. Basically, someone who if you actually manage to hurt them, it means something.

So who does the playground support as being the strongest of titans? Oh and if you can think of someone stronger than the Goku or Superman, feel free to post (please include source, I'm interested.)

Mr. Mud
2009-06-26, 11:29 AM
It's always hard to say if Superhero from comic book A is better than hero from comic book B. That being said, it all depends on how you think.

I personally think that Goku seems a bit stronger than Superman, but they are two different horses, of two different colors... Hell, of differenet breeds :smalltongue:.

The Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern) Lanterns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern#Powers_and_abilities)seems to fit your criteria and be super powerful, as well... As does Iron Man.

Artemician
2009-06-26, 11:30 AM
I recall reading some incredibly well drawn comics that dealt with this very same matchup...

Haruki-kun
2009-06-26, 11:32 AM
Whoa..... stale pasta. :smalltongue: Joking.

My take on this is that Goku would win. He'd probably lose once, first, then go off to train really hard, then return and beat Superman. And then maybe Superman would turn good if he was evil and they'd be friends and fight the next villain, which is much more powerful than both of them.

Icewalker
2009-06-26, 11:33 AM
Well, this image is relatively known, at least I've seen it before:
http://images.ociotakus.com/Superman-Goku.jpg

Mr. Mud
2009-06-26, 11:34 AM
Whoa..... stale pasta. :smalltongue: Joking.

My take on this is that Goku would win. He'd probably lose once, first, then go off to train really hard, then return and beat Superman. And then maybe Superman would turn good if he was evil and they'd be friends and fight the next villain, which is much more powerful than both of them.

Haruki has accurately summed up DB/DBZ in.... 50 words! We have a record folks! :smalltongue:

Trizap
2009-06-26, 11:42 AM
Goku.

Superman has laser eyes beams. Goku has kamehameha, which do YOU think is more powerful?

Goku comes from a race of warriors that get stronger when they are healed after being beat up.
Superman comes from.........a race of peaceful people that are weak to their own planet........

and Goku: super saiyan forms, just sayin'
spirit bomb to, which took out Kid Buu, who could regenerate and destroy entire planets with little effort.

so yeah, Goku because HE has, on a consistent basis, faced and defeated foes that could destroy entire planets and guys that could wipe cities off the map, remember Nappa? he destroyed a city by raising two fingers, I doubt Superman could stop that and Goku is far more powerful than that.
what has superman faced on a consistent basis? criminals who were stupid enough to keep firing their guns when clearly he has bulletproof skin, and mastermind lex luthor.

winner: Goku by default, cause he can only be defeated by someone as equally strong as him, Superman can be brought low by green rocks.

Nevrmore
2009-06-26, 11:47 AM
Well, this image is relatively known, at least I've seen it before:
http://images.ociotakus.com/Superman-Goku.jpg
Why isn't Goku looking at Superman? He's...Staring. At me.

He's staring at me right as he's about to kill the Man of Steel.

As if he's saying, "Watch. Watch as I murder your idol. Watch as he is consumed in the same flames that took his parents so many years ago. Watch as I kill him, and think about how you have absolutely no ability to stop me. I am the destroyer of lives, the ender of dreams, the annihilator of worlds. And I will not be satisfied until you are crying the last tears of your sanity onto the cold ground, before I destroy you as well, and let your ashes mingle in with your hero's.

Watch it all end."

Haruki-kun
2009-06-26, 11:49 AM
"Watch. Watch as I murder your idol."

Despite the fact that my father was his biggest fan, I cannot even begin to consider Superman an idol. Heck, even Goku comes closer.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-26, 11:49 AM
Superman laserbeams Goku's head off from 1958376 miles away.
Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku) and punches Goku 1948392 times before he can react.
Superman freezes the planet with super-breath.


Of course, that's Silver-Age superman.

Nevrmore
2009-06-26, 11:51 AM
Despite the fact that my father was his biggest fan, I cannot even begin to consider Superman an idol. Heck, even Goku comes closer.
I didn't say he was staring at you, now did I? Stop muscling in on my paranoid schizophrenia.

Fri
2009-06-26, 11:51 AM
yeah, I was going to ask. which goku and which superman?

The match up is kinda difficult. because goku only got one author, so his power is fairly consistent. but superman got about hundred of writer, each got different opinion on supe's power.

Theolotus
2009-06-26, 11:51 AM
I have to disagree with the idea of Goku winning. As much as I loathe Superman, he finnishes a fight in less than three episodes.

Furthermore, Superman doesn't die. He only goes away long enough for spin-offs to pop up.


The Green Lanterns seems to fit your criteria and be super powerful, as well... As does Iron Man.

Well put! Who would win between Green Lantern and Iron man?

(my money is on Mr. Stark.)

Mr. Mud
2009-06-26, 11:51 AM
Superman laserbeams Goku's head off from 1958376 miles away.
Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku) and punches Goku 1948392 times before he can react.
Superman freezes the planet with super-breath.


Of course, that's Silver-Age superman.

Instant Transmisson/Plot Power of Goku counters all that, I'm afraid :smallfrown:.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 11:51 AM
I can think of one thing off the top of my head which is stronger than Goku or Superman. If you recognise my av you probably know what it is.


Superman isn't used to fighting equals, let alone superiors.

Superman has superspeed, but he can't fight at that speed. Goku can, and he is capable of travelling many times faster than the speed of light without having to worry about relativity.

At the start of DBZ characters can blow up planets, when their power levels are around 9000. By the end of the series they are in the trillions. So... yeah.

Ki attacks might be considered magic, in which case a basic ki blast could very well kill Superman instantly.

Saiyans can adapt to any technique used against them. Assuming heat-vision could hurt Goku, it would only work once. Furthermore, they can adapt to strength, becoming stronger as the fight goes on. Superman becomes slightly weaker as a fight goes on due to leakage of solar energy.

Most DBZ characters can't breathe in space, but "suddenly developing an air bubble technique" doesn't seem out of the question (Goku once spontaneously developed mind-reading abilities for one episode).


So, basically, Goku beats any version of Superman other than the Silver Age one, whose plot armour is too thick. However, Superman is a hero to millions, so Goku would probably throw the match for the kids' sakes (DBZ characters have done it before with Hercule).

Juhn
2009-06-26, 11:52 AM
Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku)

Not to nitpick, but Goku moves faster than the eye can see on a regular basis, in the middle of fistfights. He's also capable of travelling literally anywhere he can think of, instantly. It takes him less than a second to hop galaxies, if he can get a good enough mental picture.

Haruki-kun
2009-06-26, 11:55 AM
Superman laserbeams Goku's head off from 1958376 miles away.

Goku survived beams that could destroy entire planets by stopping them with his bare hands. Even if Superman landed a hit, it would take a lot more than that to blow his head off.


Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku) and punches Goku 1948392 times before he can react.

Before he can react? Seriously? Goku can move so fast he's not even seen. That alone would mean he's not in one place long enough for your eye, which captures 12 images per second (or so I recall) to capture one image of him. I've no doubt Superman might be able to hit Goku, but a jillion times before he can react is definitely not right.


Superman freezes the planet with super-breath.
Of course, that's Silver-Age superman.

Goku destroys the planet with a single kamehameha. And that's regular Goku.

Nevrmore
2009-06-26, 11:55 AM
Superman laserbeams Goku's head off from 1958376 miles away.
Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku) and punches Goku 1948392 times before he can react.
Superman freezes the planet with super-breath.


Of course, that's Silver-Age superman.
Even for Pre-Crisis Superman, you are vastly overestimating his powers in relation to Goku's, which you are vastly underestimating.

Fan
2009-06-26, 11:58 AM
Goku survived beams that could destroy entire planets by stopping them with his bare hands. Even if Superman landed a hit, it would take a lot more than that to blow his head off.



Before he can react? Seriously? Goku can move so fast he's not even seen. That alone would mean he's not in one place long enough for your eye, which captures 12 images per second (or so I recall) to capture one image of him. I've no doubt Superman might be able to hit Goku, but a jillion times before he can react is definitely not right.



Goku destroys the planet with a single kamehameha. And that's regular Goku.

Umm, Single planet Kamehameha is WRONG even in the end his powers weren't planet busting, but ultra focused. As a person who sat through the cell, and buu saga's 5 times, I should know. That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:

Mr. Mud
2009-06-26, 12:01 PM
Umm, Single planet Kamehameha is WRONG even in the end his powers weren't planet busting, but ultra focused. As a person who sat through the cell, and buu saga's 5 times, I should know. That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:

12 at best. I mean, if Yamcha takes 3 episodes to speak a whole sentence, and 35 for Krillin to do something, A Spirit Bomb is going to be somewhere in the middle :smalltongue:.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 12:02 PM
Umm, Single planet Kamehameha is WRONG even in the end his powers weren't planet busting, but ultra focused. As a person who sat through the cell, and buu saga's 5 times, I should know. That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:What? Vegeta fired a planetbuster on his first appearance. Kid Buu's attack was just weird because it consumed the planet rather than shattering it in an example of Buu's love of overkill.

Also, even in the original Dragonball, Goku could move so fast that God himself could not see him.

Plus, Goku has demonstrated the ability to wield the combined power of all the hope and living beings in the universe.

Haruki-kun
2009-06-26, 12:02 PM
Umm, Single planet Kamehameha is WRONG even in the end his powers weren't planet busting, but ultra focused. As a person who sat through the cell, and buu saga's 5 times, I should know. That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:

The characters themselves, Cell included, commented during one episode that Goku wouldn't dare fire at Cell from the sky toward the ground, because that blast would be powerful enough to destroy the Earth. His plan was actually to teleport behind Cell and blast his head off, but the point stands. The Characters knew very well that he COULD destroy planets.

Nevrmore
2009-06-26, 12:02 PM
Umm, Single planet Kamehameha is WRONG even in the end his powers weren't planet busting, but ultra focused. As a person who sat through the cell, and buu saga's 5 times, I should know. That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:
What? No, you're blatantly and terribly wrong. Vegeta was capable of destroying an entire planet with a single fingerbeam in the first Saiyan Saga, when his power level was a cool 18,000. By even the Frieza saga, Goku's power level was in the neighborhood of 3 million. He could have destroyed all of spacetime if he felt like it by the end of the series.

chiasaur11
2009-06-26, 12:03 PM
I think the boy in blue is being underestimated here. For one thing, although it's not a guaranteed win, Supes is a genius, or at least reasonably smart depending on continuity, and Goku's a moron. Also, Supes works fast. No slow build up, if he's fighting a guy in his speed bracket, he can and sometimes does clobber them in less time than it takes to blink. No wasted hours of staredown with tons of commentary (yes, I know, faster than it looks, but it's still slow enough to have a complete commentary from the cheering section). Now, they've both fought gods and the forces of hell, even if Supes fights a much more competent Hell in glorious victory, so any sane benchmarks put them both at "You know, I'm moving to Hub City if I want to commit crimes. Including jaywalking." levels of power. Now, given a lack of mutual benchmarks, I'm giving this to Supes due to the whole "able to understand tactics" bit. (And don't go with "It's magic". Captain Marvel would have one shotted Superman if that was a win button.)

Although I freely admit this is a dumb question that's been asked far too many times.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 12:04 PM
Cell's kamahamaha was in fact stated as being able to destroy a galaxy if not blocked, though it is likely that the Japanese mixed up their words and meant solar system.


I think the boy in blue is being underestimated here. For one thing, although it's not a guaranteed win, Supes is a genius, or at least reasonably smart depending on continuity, and Goku's a moron. Also, Supes works fast. No slow build up, if he's fighting a guy in his speed bracket, he can and sometimes does clobber them in less time than it takes to blink. No wasted hours of staredown with tons of commentary (yes, I know, faster than it looks, but it's still slow enough to have a complete commentary from the cheering section). Now, they've both fought gods and the forces of hell, even if Supes fights a much more competent Hell in glorious victory, so any sane benchmarks put them both at "You know, I'm moving to Hub City if I want to commit crimes. Including jaywalking." levels of power. Now, given a lack of mutual benchmarks, I'm giving this to Supes due to the whole "able to understand tactics" bit. (And don't go with "It's magic". Captain Marvel would have one shotted Superman if that was a win button.)

Although I freely admit this is a dumb question that's been asked far too many times.Actually, Goku uses far more tactics in his fights than Superman, such as laying Kamahamaha "mines" in a lake to make his opponent think he was attacking from underwater.

Dienekes
2009-06-26, 12:06 PM
That, and your forgetting all their powers take 12 episodes to charge.:smalltongue:

Yet sadly, only a few seconds in "plot time"

DBZ, the only show where 3 minutes can span an entire season.

Haruki-kun
2009-06-26, 12:06 PM
Cell's kamahamaha was in fact stated as being able to destroy a galaxy if not blocked, though it is likely that the Japanese mixed up their words and meant solar system.

That still leaves you with an overpowered attack.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 12:07 PM
Yet sadly, only a few seconds in "plot time"

DBZ, the only show where 3 minutes can span an entire season.They can attack quickly - they only use the big-chargers because all the characters are obsessed with "mine's bigger".

Take a look at the Final Flash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRxwvGdHMcQ&fmt=18) video. Cell has beaten the **** out of all the characters and in his supreme arrogance views himself as a god, so Vegeta is able to taunt him with "I bet you can't survive my ultimate attack!"

Icewalker
2009-06-26, 12:11 PM
The magic thing isn't a 'oh Goku wins because it's magical' it just means that Superman has no real measure of his invulnerability, from what I understand he is completely susceptible to magic as a common person would be.

Now, anybody who has a lot of experience with him can feel free to further detail this or to correct me, I don't actually know it too well.

Juhn
2009-06-26, 12:14 PM
Goku may be something of an idiot, but he's essentially a genius when it comes to fighting, which is what this thread is about.

So long as he doesn't have any allies.

"I was holding back because I thought you wanted a turn."

"YOU IDIOT, THERE'S NO WAY I COULD POSSIBLY BEAT HIM. NOW YOU'RE EXHAUSTED AND WE'RE ALL DOOMED!"

"...Oh."

Prime32
2009-06-26, 12:15 PM
The magic thing isn't a 'oh Goku wins because it's magical' it just means that Superman has no real measure of his invulnerability, from what I understand he is completely susceptible to magic as a common person would be.

Now, anybody who has a lot of experience with him can feel free to further detail this or to correct me, I don't actually know it too well.Yeah, well the weakest attack a DBZ character can use is still UNBELIEVABLY MASSIVE OVERKILL against a normal person.

Nevrmore
2009-06-26, 12:17 PM
Yeah, well the weakest attack a DBZ character can use is still UNBELIEVABLY MASSIVE OVERKILL against a normal person.
Case-in-point: Barely even tapping a machine designed to measure how strong your punch is still produces numbers far higher than the number received when the reigning (human) world fighting champion hit it with all his might.

doliest
2009-06-26, 12:19 PM
Once again which supes do we use? Not to mention how far into the show is goku?

Prime32
2009-06-26, 12:19 PM
Case-in-point: Barely even tapping a machine designed to measure how strong your punch is still produces numbers far higher than the number received when the reigning (human) world fighting champion hit it with all his might.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12xhIuoV3Ec

Trizap
2009-06-26, 01:40 PM
Superman laserbeams Goku's head off from 1958376 miles away.
Superman moves faster than light (and most probably faster than Goku) and punches Goku 1948392 times before he can react.
Superman freezes the planet with super-breath.


Of course, that's Silver-Age superman.

1. Goku can withstand ki attacks that can destroy planets.

2. Goku also can move than light, also, instant transmission, can go to planet to planet in seconds that would take light minutes, months, years etc to get there.

3. Goku destroys the sun with a kamehameha and causes a supernova.

I do not see what the deal is, GOKU BEATS SUPERMAN END OF DISCUSSION.

Fan
2009-06-26, 01:49 PM
I think a actual case of debate might be that, Goku just has a insane resistance to Ki attacks that would otherwise destroy people in addition to a sizeable resistance to everything else, and thus is a fair target for super mans attacks without too much invulnerablity. (As in like the Superman V.S. Doomsday fight sans the obvious ending.)

GoC
2009-06-26, 01:55 PM
Not to nitpick, but Goku moves faster than the eye can see on a regular basis, in the middle of fistfights.
That's not faster than the speed of light and is thus NOT a counter to "Superman moves faster than the speed of light".
I've decided to asign one point for each silly argument in all vs threads.


He's also capable of travelling literally anywhere he can think of, instantly. It takes him less than a second to hop galaxies, if he can get a good enough mental picture.
This might be except that it looks more like teleportation.

One point so far.


What? No, you're blatantly and terribly wrong. Vegeta was capable of destroying an entire planet with a single fingerbeam in the first Saiyan Saga, when his power level was a cool 18,000. By even the Frieza saga, Goku's power level was in the neighborhood of 3 million. He could have destroyed all of spacetime if he felt like it by the end of the series.
One point to Nevrmore.

Goku's attacks take about a minute to charge judging by the commentary.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-26, 01:56 PM
From here. (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(Earth-One))

Silver-Age Superman:Known Powers: Truly infinite power levels of Flight, Invulnerability, Strength and Speed (faster than light) which were all based on his body's ability to absorb, process and store yellow sun radiation in some way to allow him to do these feats[3]. He would lose all of his powers under the presence of a red sun such as his native Krypton star in short period of time.
Superman can fly across the universe to distant galaxies and distant planets through space warps and is known to fly across the solar system in no time mostly to get his mind off things.

The Earth-One Superman's physical abilities included Heat Vision, Telescopic Vision, Microscopic Vision, X-Ray Vision, Super Breath, Super Ventriloquism, Super Hypnotism. All of these powers were infinitely powered as well, as noted in a story published in Feb 1961, one of his super sneezes literally destroys an entire distant solar system.

As long as the Earth-One Superman is charged under a yellow sun, he doesn't need to eat, breathe, or sleep. He is also impervious to extreme heat and cold. Able to survive indefinately in a vacuum in a yellow sun system.

The only true limitations to his power levels were kryptonite and powerful magics. Psionics could also effect him but unless done quickly Superman's superconcentration would overcome most enemies who used mind control techniques on him, same as did magic forms that did not immediately immobolize him whereby he would move out of their range of effectiveness.
Abilities

Briliant scientist and inventor, especially in robotics. Appears to speak every known language on Earth as well as several alien languages. Photographic memory.

Strength level

"More powerful than a locomotive" doesn't begin to cover it. He has been known to move planets from one solar system to another barehanded, outmuscle black holes, and once in a battle with one of his descendants altered the course of the time stream continuum.

And since Ki blasts seem to be an inherent ability tied to physical training, I'd say they're more like metahuman powers. So no bypass of Superman's abilities.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 01:57 PM
Destroying a planet isn't the same as obliterating one. Also, there is wide variance in DBZ power levels - Master Roshi is able to completely destroy the Moon in Dragonball, while it takes Frieza forever to make an energy ball strong enough to cause Namek to collapse.

Superman's capable of using mirror images due to speed as well, Mongol's son taught him that trick. He's also flown out of a blackhole before.

Gotenks takes considerably longer to fly around the world than near-lightspeed, and Gotenks is supposed to be better than Goku. (By the end of the series, Gohan > Gotenks > Goku > Vegeta > Humans).

Superman's also been so slow as to not dodge a kryptonite bullet before.

Goku's also been strong enough to cause small localized earthquakes with his power-up sequence, something Superman only does if he tries to, generally.

Both often forego their acknowledged tactical genius because of writer oversight or the sake of a good fight scene.

I'd argue that for all intents and purposes they are roughly equal. Their powers mostly consist of "way faster and stronger and fly-ier than is really humanly conceivable" and thus vary with Akira Toriyama's short attention span (how many versions of the death of the Saiyan race did he have?) and the switch of writers in Superman.

Trizap
2009-06-26, 01:59 PM
I think a actual case of debate might be that, Goku just has a insane resistance to Ki attacks that would otherwise destroy people in addition to a sizeable resistance to everything else, and thus is a fair target for super mans attacks without too much invulnerablity. (As in like the Superman V.S. Doomsday fight sans the obvious ending.)

so? to me there is a certain logic: if someone could withstand one thing that can destroy planets, they can withstand all of the things that can destroy planets, because if Goku can withstand energy attacks that destroys a planet, he should obviously also be able to withstand something like a laser beam from some big gun just as well, meaning that to my reasoning Goku would survive both a Death Star's beam as well as Buu's or Cells super-blast ki attack.

therefore to me logic, supermans attacks wouldn't work, cause if Goku can survive a ki attack that can destroy a planet, he can logically withstand anything superman can dish out, which is lacking in comparison. its logical that Goku's resistance can applied to anything else, because if it somehow can't, then how do you logically justify him being able to withstand planet-destroying ki attacks in the first place if he can't withstand things with equal power?

Random832
2009-06-26, 01:59 PM
1. Goku can withstand ki attacks that can destroy planets.

2. Goku also can move than light, also, instant transmission, can go to planet to planet in seconds that would take light minutes, months, years etc to get there.

3. Goku destroys the sun with a kamehameha and causes a supernova.


That's not how supernovas work. The sun is already a huge thermonuclear explosion contained only by gravity - supernovas (which the sun will never have one, since it's not big enough) happen when iron buildup within the core causes the fusion to stop, causing the star to collapse and 'bounce outward' (there's some sort of weird energy transition involving high density stuff and neutrinos that makes it powerful enough to overcome gravity).

A huge enough ki blast could probably _destroy_ the sun (by providing enough energy to overcome gravity and the whole thing falls apart), but it wouldn't cause a supernova.

It's not clear whether or not this would not be survivable by superman (though without a source of yellow sun energy anymore, he's got other problems now).

Trizap
2009-06-26, 02:01 PM
That's not how supernovas work. The sun is already a huge thermonuclear explosion contained only by gravity - supernovas (which the sun will never have one, since it's not big enough) happen when iron buildup within the core causes the fusion to stop, causing the star to collapse and 'bounce outward' (there's some sort of weird energy transition involving high density stuff and neutrinos that makes it powerful enough to overcome gravity).

A huge enough ki blast could probably _destroy_ the sun (by providing enough energy to overcome gravity and the whole thing falls apart), but it wouldn't cause a supernova.

no, its a ki supernova. not a sun supernova.

Dienekes
2009-06-26, 02:01 PM
I think a actual case of debate might be that, Goku just has a insane resistance to Ki attacks that would otherwise destroy people in addition to a sizeable resistance to everything else, and thus is a fair target for super mans attacks without too much invulnerablity. (As in like the Superman V.S. Doomsday fight sans the obvious ending.)

Except that the characters normal physical attacks in DBZ are shown to level mountains which Goku can take without flinching and do as well. And that is simply in the first season after which they get stronger. Such as being able to move comfortably in 500x gravity (not sure if right number but you get the point) without using their special powers.

Goku was simply physically tough, and this is even before they get into such cheese as SS4 from DBGT in which he can essentially take on everything without breaking a sweat.

though I don't really like either character, but this is one of the few times I'll say Supes is weaker than another hero

Fan
2009-06-26, 02:02 PM
so? to me there is a certain logic: if someone could withstand one thing that can destroy planets, they can withstand all of the things that can destroy planets, because if Goku can withstand energy attacks that destroys a planet, he should obviously also be able to withstand something like a laser beam from some big gun just as well, meaning that to my reasoning Goku would survive both a Death Star's beam as well as Buu's or Cells super-blast ki attack.

therefore to me logic, supermans attacks wouldn't work, cause if Goku can survive a ki attack that can destroy a planet, he can logically withstand anything superman can dish out, which is lacking in comparison. its logical that Goku's resistance can applied to anything else, because if it somehow can't, then how do you logically justify him being able to withstand planet-destroying ki attacks in the first place if he can't withstand things with equal power?


There fore to you, does not make it true Grasshopper. A Red Dragon is immune to fire, so there fore to me it must be immune to all attacks that use friction as a method of delvierance, in addition to lightning. However it is NOT. Circular Logic is fallacy in of itself Trizap.

nysisobli
2009-06-26, 02:03 PM
Simple superman flies in and grapples goku, goku headbutts him, supes doesn't let go and lobotomizes gokus brain.

If this is a supes episode it takes 5 minutes
If this is a Dbz episode it take 2 weeks.

Besides supes isn't going to let goku power up lol

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 02:05 PM
though I don't really like either character, but this is one of the few times I'll say Supes is weaker than another hero

Superman is weaker than a lot - top-list Green Lanterns, elementals, Dr. Fate, Flash, Martian Manhunter... he's just the most well-known hero of his strength class.

I don't even see how you guys can really try participating in this argument given the massive inconsistencies in what these two bruisers -do-. This isn't a battle between Nightwing and Harry Potter.

Trizap
2009-06-26, 02:05 PM
There fore to you, does not make it true Grasshopper. A Red Dragon is immune to fire, so there fore to me it must be immune to all attacks that use friction as a method of delvierance, in addition to lightning. However it is NOT. Circular Logic is fallacy in of itself Trizap.

I don't see why not, the red dragon is immune to all of it, its all energy, just cause its in different forms doesn't mean it would be more effective.

still I don't see why anyone is arguing, superman is obviously weaker.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 02:06 PM
Goku's also been strong enough to cause small localized earthquakes with his power-up sequence, something Superman only does if he tries to, generally.In some cases, DBZ character power-up sequences have caused destruction all over the world.

See this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTReVT-m0A&fmt=22) for example. Cell's transformation to his "perfect" form probably caused the most/longest destruction.


As for the "ki-based defences only work against ki-based attacks" theory, that doesn't explain how normal humans can train until bullets bounce off them, or how Tien once blocked a laser cannon with his chest in Dragonball.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 02:07 PM
I don't see why not, the red dragon is immune to all of it, its all energy, just cause its in different forms doesn't mean it would be more effective.

still I don't see why anyone is arguing, superman is obviously weaker.

He's obviously weaker when he can exceed the Speed of Light, has in fact been hit with planet destroying attacks before, and has managed to heat up an entire frozen planet with his eye beams before? Anyone who's saying one side is 'obviously weaker' hasn't done much of their reading.

The simple fact that Superman can exceed the speed of light and does it without the Speed Force means that he's hitting someone with virtually infinite mass, and both he and the Flash have used that trick before. He doesn't even go a percent of his full speed for long distances in the Earth because of the potential damage from the shockwaves. At no point is Goku demonstrated to possess that kind of speed without using the Shukan Idou (Instant Transmission), which is a teleport and also requires a brief charge-up period to use.

Again, both show consistently inconsistent portrayals of power throughout their series.

Oh, and for people saying Superman doesn't consistently deal with threats at his own level or greater - sure, if you're talking about his personal series, though Lex Luthor often engineers threats at that level and he's hardly the only one to deal with. But much of his rogues gallery is shared with the Justice League because much of his rogues gallery is so on his level or better that they are Justice League level threats. Hell, does Darkseid ring a bell?

Prime32
2009-06-26, 02:18 PM
Some incarnations of Superman can exceed c. Others can't. The Silver Age Superman can just make up new powers on the spot, so he basically only loses if the writer feels like it. Goku becomes spontaneously stronger when needed, but his plot armour isn't as great as SA Superman.

The "charge period" for Instant Transmission is Goku locking on - he can only teleport to the energy signatures of lifeforms. Note, though, that he once brought himself back to life by teleporting out of the afterlife (only once because the guys in charge made him promise not to do it again).

Oslecamo
2009-06-26, 02:20 PM
As for the "ki-based defences only work against ki-based attacks" theory, that doesn't explain how normal humans can train until bullets bounce off them, or how Tien once blocked a laser cannon with his chest in Dragonball.

They can't. Goku isn't human. He's also an alien, and bullet proof skin is one of his "natural" characteristics.

However, bullets still hurt Goku, while Supes barely notices them.

And Superman takes planet destroying attacks in a regular basis anyway and keeps fighting.

Goku on the other hand can be cut by blades!

And if we're using sulver age supermen, he can just mess up with reality so much Goku has no hope of victory as supes uses his super chemistry to create orange kyrptonite, wich kills only sayans, or some other idiocy like he was doing all the time(no, seriously, he kept creating diferent types of kyrptonite to solve all kind of problems!).

Trizap
2009-06-26, 02:20 PM
He's obviously weaker when he can exceed the Speed of Light, has in fact been hit with planet destroying attacks before, and has managed to heat up an entire frozen planet with his eye beams before? Anyone who's saying one side is 'obviously weaker' hasn't done much of their reading.

The simple fact that Superman can exceed the speed of light and does it without the Speed Force means that he's hitting someone with virtually infinite mass, and both he and the Flash have used that trick before. He doesn't even go a percent of his full speed for long distances in the Earth because of the potential damage from the shockwaves. At no point is Goku demonstrated to possess that kind of speed without using the Shukan Idou (Instant Transmission), which is a teleport and also requires a brief charge-up period to use.

Again, both show consistently inconsistent portrayals of power throughout their series.

yes he has, Goku has moved faster than the speed of light

so what if I haven't done much of the reading? to me its common sense, a fact that Goku is stronger than superman, there is NO justification whatsoever that superman is better, none.

don't really care what you say, Goku is better, and that is really what all of you are saying, all you guys are doing are just trying to justify it and force it upon other people, when it just comes down to this fact: if you like one better than the other, that one wins.

it comes down to opinion, all of it, your opinion, and my opinion is Goku would win because to me, its more reasonable, you have a different opinion you may say its fact, but its not, its only your stupid fracking opinion.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 02:23 PM
They can't. Goku isn't human. He's also an alien, and bullet proof skin is one of his "natural" characteristics.
Incorrect. The impact of the bullet is cancelled out by some of his ki. The human characters such as Tien and Krillin can do it too.


However, bullets still hurt Goku, while Supes barely notices them.

And Superman takes planet destroying attacks in a regular basis anyway and keeps fighting.

Goku on the other hand can be cut by blades!
That is only true of when Goku was a kid about 8 years old. Even then, he could dodge bullets after a while, and they only inflicted bruises anyway.


And if we're using sulver age supermen, he can just mess up with reality so much Goku has no hope of victory as supes uses his super chemistry to create orange kyrptonite, wich kills only sayans, or some other idiocy like he was doing all the time(no, seriously, he kept creating diferent types of kyrptonite to solve all kind of problems!).No arguments there. Justice League cartoon Superman, on the other hand, is so screwed it's not funny.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 02:24 PM
Some incarnations of Superman can exceed c. Others can't. The Silver Age Superman can just make up new powers on the spot, so he basically only loses if the writer feels like it. Goku becomes spontaneously stronger when needed, but his plot armour isn't as great as SA Superman.

I'm not even talking about Silver Age. Talking about Modern Age. His power's been increased. Again, inconsistencies are present for both - hell, Gohan somehow managed to not catch an earring - the most powerful mortal in the entire world failed at hand eye coordination.


The "charge period" for Instant Transmission is Goku locking on - he can only teleport to the energy signatures of lifeforms. Note, though, that he once brought himself back to life by teleporting out of the afterlife (only once because the guys in charge made him promise not to do it again).

The entire rules for metaphysics are completely different in the two universes - the afterlife is in fact another life in Dragonball, while Comic Book Death is mostly undone by "I secretly survived" rather than someone actually being resurrected. The Supreme Kai/Dai Kaioshin is weaker than a bunch of apes who got beat on a lot, while the Presence is inarguably and incomparably powerful, just oft-absent, enacting his ineffable plan.


yes he has, Goku has moved faster than the speed of light

When? About the only things that even suggest it are mistranslations, and those same mistranslations slow the Instant Transmission to lightspeed, which would imply that he moves slower than it.


so what if I haven't done much of the reading? to me its common sense, a fact that Goku is stronger than superman, there is NO justification whatsoever that superman is better, none.

"It's right because I say it is."

Okay.


don't really care what you say, Goku is better, and that is really what all of you are saying, all you guys are doing are just trying to justify it and force it upon other people, when it just comes down to this fact: if you like one better than the other, that one wins.

That's completely different, and my repeated highlighting of the variability in power levels is pretty much underscoring this point - this argument is pointless because their powers vary too much.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 02:28 PM
The entire rules for metaphysics are completely different in the two universes - the afterlife is in fact another life in Dragonball, while Comic Book Death is mostly undone by "I secretly survived" rather than someone actually being resurrected. The Supreme Kai is weaker than a bunch of apes who got beat on a lot, while the Presence is inarguably and incomparably powerful, just oft-absent.I would say the closest thing to a god in Dragonball (despite all these guys with pointy ears running around calling themselves Guardians and World-Kings) is Goku himself after he fuses with the purified Shenron at the end of Dragonball GT.


Also, ask yourself if Goku could defeat Doomsday.

Oslecamo
2009-06-26, 02:32 PM
Incorrect. The impact of the bullet is cancelled out by some of his ki. The human characters such as Tien and Krillin can do it too.

Wasn't Tien the guy with 3 eyes? You call him human? Also, I don't remember Krillin ever being hit by bullets. Could you please point a specific fight where this happens?



That is only true of when Goku was a kid about 8 years old. Even then, he could dodge bullets after a while, and they only inflicted bruises anyway.


Incorrect. In one of the movies, where Goku goes to that demon citadel, he fights a sword wielding enemy who manages to cut out some of his air and forces him to use his staff to block the remaining attacks.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 02:32 PM
I would say the closest thing to a god in Dragonball (despite all these guys with pointy ears running around calling themselves Guardians and World-Kings) is Goku himself after he fuses with Shenron at the end of Dragonball GT.

And then that's another thing that does not make sense - an entire race of green-skinned frogmen can create dragon spirits that can do just about -anything- if only someone would collect all seven macguffins. These abilities are inimitable by beings far far and above them in power, who the Nameks greatly respect.

And let's not forget that the entire race that Goku learned this trick from can do the 'teleport back from the dead' trick too.


Wasn't Tien the guy with 3 eyes? You call him human? Also, I don't remember Krillin ever being hit by bullets. Could you please point a specific fight where this happens?

Tien's human, the third eye is from his enlightenment. (It's never stated, but it's presumable, as he matches the classic archetype for that.)


Incorrect. In one of the movies, where Goku goes to that demon citadel, he fights a sword wielding enemy who manages to cut out some of his air and forces him to use his staff to block the remaining attacks.

The movies are about as bad for consistency (and, for the most part, watchability) as Silver Age Superman. None of them except for 13 even fit into the plot anywhere, and 13 only gets by because it was a lead in for DBGT.


Also, ask yourself if Goku could defeat Doomsday.

Not hard - Doomsday had an advantage against Superman because he's considered to be Kryptonian in origin, and Kryptonians bypass the biokinetic invulnerability field of other Kryptonians. Doomsday's resilience came purely from his skin, so Superman didn't get the advantage back.

And since then, Superman's managed to knock Doomsie down several times, in one encounter even knocking him out with one haymaker punch. I believe Supes also started out the fight exhausted, but don't quote me on that one.

Juhn
2009-06-26, 02:39 PM
That's not faster than the speed of light and is thus NOT a counter to "Superman moves faster than the speed of light".It wasn't supposed to be. I never claimed that Goku moved faster than light in the middle of fights, just that he regularly fights at incredibly fast rates and is by no means slow.



This might be except that it looks more like teleportation.

One point so far.So claiming that top speed is largely not an issue because Goku has an established go-anywhere-instantly power gets me silly points? Oookaaay... :smallconfused:

Goku's attacks take about a minute to charge judging by the commentary.

That really depends on how much power he wants to put behind them. He's also been known to make use of Instant Transmission to fire off an attack after it's fully charged, so as long as he's aware of where Superman is, charging time is a non-issue as he can simply charge up somewhere a galaxy or two away (teleporting there, if necessary), or, say, in the afterlife, then teleport back and release the attack.

Mind you, this entire argument's pretty much moot as the two of them would never fight. Both of their top priorities are the same: "protect Earth".

Trizap
2009-06-26, 02:41 PM
Mind you, this entire argument's pretty much moot as the two of them would never fight. Both of their top priorities are the same: "protect Earth".

yea, the closest they would ever get is flipping a coin over who gets to thwart the villain this time.

Kris Strife
2009-06-26, 02:42 PM
One thing I saw on this before gave the victory to Goku, due to the fact he's simply a much better fighter than Superman is. Seriously, all Supes does is fly in and start slugging, maybe dropping down on them feet first. I'm not sure he'd be able to land a blow on Goku...

Also, since we're apparently going with Buu saga Goku, lets not forget he could block Trunk's sword with two fingers... Yes, the same sword that sliced through a giant insect/demon/lizard/statue thing and cut it in half, and that was at the beginning of the android saga.


Mind you, this entire argument's pretty much moot as the two of them would never fight. Both of their top priorities are the same: "protect Earth".

Is this the same Goku who decided not to destroy Majinn Vegeta and Buu, even though he could have (presumably easily) because he has too much fun fighting tough opponents?

Oslecamo
2009-06-26, 02:42 PM
And then that's another thing that does not make sense - an entire race of green-skinned frogmen can create dragon spirits that can do just about -anything- if only someone would collect all seven macguffins.


Ah, but you're forgeting an important rule here: the dragon can't do anything that it's creator couldn't do!

So does this mean that your average Namek can ressurect people? Yes they can, as we see in the Namek arc, where a random little kid goes ressurecting the good guys like nobody's business.

nysisobli
2009-06-26, 02:47 PM
lol you all forget supermans most powerful ability, that hes shown time and time again. He has the power to make up a new power whenever he really needs it.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 02:47 PM
One thing I saw on this before gave the victory to Goku, due to the fact he's simply a much better fighter than Superman is. Seriously, all Supes does is fly in and start slugging, maybe dropping down on them feet first. I'm not sure he'd be able to land a blow on Goku...

Superman's had extensive battle training with just about everyone who's a top martial artist ever. Thing of it is, simple > complicated, and that holds true in real life fighting as well. And the last time I really saw Goku use a tactic besides "hey guys, run in and get yourself beat up while I try to use my secret weapon (Spirit Bomb/getting my son angry enough to defeat the villain)" was back in Frieza Saga, with the aforementioned ki torpedoes. Coincidentally, that was the last time I enjoyed watching Goku fight.

Once again, I must repeat that they are inconsistent and effectively the victor is whoever you like more.


Ah, but you're forgeting an important rule here: the dragon can't do anything that it's creator couldn't do!

So does this mean that your average Namek can ressurect people? Yes they can, as we see in the Namek arc, where a random little kid goes ressurecting the good guys like nobody's business.

Dende never resurrects anyone, he can only heal people who are still alive. Also, most Nameks are warrior-type - only a small percentage have magic powers instead. Piccolo has traits of both, though.

This thread is showing I know way too much about both for my own good. =\

Juhn
2009-06-26, 02:48 PM
Is this the same Goku who decided not to destroy Majinn Vegeta and Buu, even though he could have (presumably easily) because he has too much fun fighting tough opponents?

As I said before, he decided not to destroy Buu because he thought Vegeta wanted a turn, and he also vastly overestimated Vegeta's power level. He wasn't aware that his losing would probably doom the Earth. Also note that he had Buu come back so they could fight again, but he made sure that the reincarnation would be essentially pure good, thereby giving the Earth yet another defender.

As for Majin Vegeta, I don't remember those particular episodes well enough.

Kris Strife
2009-06-26, 02:51 PM
As I said before, he decided not to destroy Buu because he thought Vegeta wanted a turn, and he also vastly overestimated Vegeta's power level. He wasn't aware that his losing would probably doom the Earth. Also note that he had Buu come back so they could fight again, but he made sure that the reincarnation would be essentially pure good, thereby giving the Earth yet another defender.

As for Majin Vegeta, I don't remember those particular episodes well enough.

I meant Fat Buu not Kid Buu, sorry.

And he never went above SS2 while fighting Majin Vegeta. When Vegeta saw Goku go SS3, he realized Goku had been going easy/toying with him for that entire fight and could have ended it near instantly if Goku had fought all out.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 03:12 PM
Ah, but you're forgeting an important rule here: the dragon can't do anything that it's creator couldn't do!

So does this mean that your average Namek can ressurect people? Yes they can, as we see in the Namek arc, where a random little kid goes ressurecting the good guys like nobody's business.I like to think of it as more of a summoning than a creation - the dragons certainly act independently of their "creators" and do not appear to travel to the afterlife when killed, so maybe they are called from some place beyond the universe into a dragon-shaped vessel.


Just for fun: Goku could teleport to the remains of Krypton and bring back some Kryptonite. Or he could grab Superman and teleport him to Krypton. He'd never do it, but still... :smalltongue:

Humbog
2009-06-26, 03:14 PM
Yahoo :)
It seems incredibly silly that I should be taunted out of merely lurking, and into creating a forum user, for such a silly discussion.

Yet, if you still believe Goku is the most bad-ass butt-kicker in the known and unknown universe, then this post is definately for you.

Now, I could go and take credit for this, but it is actually written a looong time ago by a Gaia Online user, who has an extensive knowledge of more or less every single drawn or animated world/universe/''setting''.

Anyone who still sees this debate fit to carry on after this, rather short, well weighted yet formidably readable post, I shall from now on refer to as 'strawhats'.

I see no need for a spoiler warning, but if you love all that is Dragonball and Superman(/DC), you should probably avert your eyes a little bit:


Goku cant beat Superman, and Im sick of hearing people who know nothing about Superman say he can.

People always call in fusion, or SSJ4 Goku at his strongest, so why not use Superman at his strongest? Superman Prime has been living in the SUN for 15,000 years, and he has the Green Lantern ring, the Universe's Most Powerful weapon. By that time, Supes is no longer hurt by Kryptonite, he has absorbed so much solar energy that he cannot be hurt by anything other than a psychic attack (psychic attacks only give him headaches), and the Green Lantern ring is limited only by willpower in what it can do.

Or how about Pre-Crisis Superman? Who is this? The early version of Superman, who had his powers cut back during the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Heres some samples of his powers:

Goku can blow up a planet? Superman once juggled planets.

Goku has instant transmission? The Flash can run over 8 times the speed of light, and Superman barely lost to him in a footrace. That means that Superman can move at around 7.7 times the speed of light. Goku's instant transmission is only 99% speed of light.

Superman once nearly outflew the barrier of creation.

He is so fast, and his senses are so sharp, that while talking to Lois Lane, he heard aliens in another galaxy needing help, went there, helped them, and came back, and Lois didnt even notice he had left.

His voice alone can shatter mountains.

His heat vision can repel Darkseid's Omega Effect, which can destroy planets.

Should I go on? Yep.

Superman closed a black hole with his bare hands.

He once used his superbreath to extinguish a star about to go nova.

He sneezed in outer space, and his super breath obliterated an uninhabited solar-system. The whole thing.

In February 1954, Superman withstands the explosion of a hydrogen bomb, (Superman #87)

In June 1958, while relaxing at his Fortress of Solitude, Superman defeats a great robot he has built in a game of super-chess, despite the fact that the robot - which possesses a super-electronic brain - can think and play with the speed of lightning and plans a million moves at once.

By 1957, Superman is able to hurl an uninhabited Planet through space (Superman #110)

Ive got more if you want it...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FANBOYS, TAKE NOTE:
We've already talked about the following many times:

Superman is impervious to ki attacks. There are ki users in the DCU, and they do not affect Superman.

Goku trying to use Krytonite on Superman. Goku wont. Just for comparison, he gave Cell a senzu bean before sending his own son in against Cell. He wont figure out Superman's weakness anyway.

Goku blowing up the sun. Goku wont, he's too good to intentionally kill everyone on Earth, just to win a fight. He would rather sacrifice himself than risk destroying the earth. Plus, Superman has enough solar energy stored up, and can exist in space long enough, that the destruction of the sun would be more of a problem for Goku than Superman.

Goku trying to gather the Dragonballs. He doesnt have time, because Superman is so much faster, Goku doesnt have time to gather all the balls, and doesnt have time to make a wish. Also, everybody knows how much he loves a fight, and how its often his downfall.

Superman doesnt know martial arts. Wrong. Superman knows many forms of martial arts, and how to neutralize them, and he has thousands of years of combat experience.

Goku wins because he is cooler. Wrong. Nobody cares who you think is "cool." Thats both subjective and irrelevant to this fight, as a good friend of mine pointed out. Also, Superman has been around longer, is more recognizable, and is even more popular in Japan than Goku.


Good, so if you read that, at least you won't bring up those horrendous ki/chi/qi attacks anymore.

Also, should anybody feel the need to bring up Genki Dama again, there shall be no need. I shall dispel that idea right this instant. Superman is invulnerable to the Genki Dama, for Superman is pure of heart. End of, not even a Greater Dispel needed for this case.

Over and out.

Prime32
2009-06-26, 03:24 PM
If Superman was really so smart he would have a built a robot which knows every possible chess move and is thus physically impossible to defeat. Scientists have already done it for checkers. :smalltongue: Okay, enough sillyness. Those are good arguments.


Stars seem to be treated with some kind of weird reverence in Dragonball, so I'm not sure if Goku would even want to blow up one without any planets orbiting it.


Also, should anybody feel the need to bring up Genki Dama again, there shall be no need. I shall dispel that idea right this instant. Superman is invulnerable to the Genki Dama, for Superman is pure of heart. End of, not even a Greater Dispel needed for this case.I would argue that Superman is not entirely pure of heart, given the number of times he has fallen to evil. Then again, in DBZ the devil can be pure good, so there are obviously some weird standards going on.

Mr. Scaly
2009-06-26, 03:36 PM
Yahoo :)
It seems incredibly silly that I should be taunted out of merely lurking, and into creating a forum user, for such a silly discussion.

Yet, if you still believe Goku is the most bad-ass butt-kicker in the known and unknown universe, then this post is definately for you.

Now, I could go and take credit for this, but it is actually written a looong time ago by a Gaia Online user, who has an extensive knowledge of more or less every single drawn or animated world/universe/''setting''.

Anyone who still sees this debate fit to carry on after this, rather short, well weighted yet formidably readable post, I shall from now on refer to as 'strawhats'.

I see no need for a spoiler warning, but if you love all that is Dragonball and Superman(/DC), you should probably avert your eyes a little bit:



Good, so if you read that, at least you won't bring up those horrendous ki/chi/qi attacks anymore.

Also, should anybody feel the need to bring up Genki Dama again, there shall be no need. I shall dispel that idea right this instant. Superman is invulnerable to the Genki Dama, for Superman is pure of heart. End of, not even a Greater Dispel needed for this case.

Over and out.

Congrats on joining the playground, but...well, exactly how many people do you think are going to be convinced? :smallbiggrin: You're spitting in the ocean here my friend.

dillugoa
2009-06-26, 03:48 PM
GOKU would kill superman because goku is just awesome and if by some mirical superman would win all the Z-wariors would pwn his face and plus goku could use kamehameha's, spirit bomb ang go super sayin and if that dont work he has super sayin 2/3/4 and (depending on which version of goku) fuse with vageta to be vagito or gogeta and he has all his friends ad the imencly retarted amount of training to back him up


GOKU RULES

Prime32
2009-06-26, 03:53 PM
GOKU would kill superman because goku is just awesome and if by some mirical superman would win all the Z-wariors would pwn his face and plus goku could use kamehameha's, spirit bomb ang go super sayin and if that dont work he has super sayin 2/3/4 and (depending on which version of goku) fuse with vageta to be vagito or gogeta and he has all his friends ad the imencly retarted amount of training to back him up


GOKU RULESThat argument wasn't very coherent, and makes no sense to anyone who isn't familiar with the character. Plus it's doubtful that any of the other characters could defeat someone stronger than Goku - the general plotline goes "Villain beats up all the other characters at once, fights Goku, transforms into far more powerful state, is killed by Goku".

Kris Strife
2009-06-26, 03:55 PM
That argument wasn't very coherent, and makes no sense to anyone who isn't familiar with the character. Plus it's doubtful that any of the other characters could defeat someone stronger than Goku.

Teen Gohan?

Prime32
2009-06-26, 03:56 PM
Teen Gohan?Teen Gohan was a wimp. Gohan was only stronger than Goku during the Cell Games arc, and then he stopped training. Even "Mystic" Gohan got overshadowed when Goku came back.

AstralFire
2009-06-26, 03:57 PM
Overshadowed != weaker. Mystic Gohan was stronger and it took plot for Goku to be the hero. Not making the final fight be about who was ultimately stronger was a surprising amount of sophistication for Dragonball Z at that point.

Kris Strife
2009-06-26, 03:58 PM
Teen Gohan was a wimp. Gohan was only stronger than Goku during the Cell Games arc, and then he stopped training. Even "Mystic" Gohan got overshadowed when Goku came back.

Teen Gohan is the Cell Saga Gohan. >.> Everyone's apparent age is all screwed up because of the dieing/Sayians don't age after hitting 25 thing, but I think he's supposed to be 17-19 during the Saiyaman Saga...

dillugoa
2009-06-26, 04:00 PM
compaired to goku gohan aint all that good and plus goku rules

Prime32
2009-06-26, 04:02 PM
Teen Gohan is the Cell Saga Gohan. >.> Everyone's apparent age is all screwed up because of the dieing/Sayians don't age after hitting 25 thing, but I think he's supposed to be 17-19 during the Saiyaman Saga...Huh? Goku hit adulthood faster than normal.

Kris Strife
2009-06-26, 04:06 PM
Huh? Goku hit adulthood faster than normal.

He did? I thought he hit it normally since Chi-Chi stayed more ore less the same age as him (until he died for 7+ years. :p)

Girr
2009-06-26, 04:12 PM
Iron man? Superman? Goku? Green Lantern?

While all commendable figures of power, you guys are ALL very obviously wrong. Have you completely forgotten about O-Chul? He wins hands down in my book.

UltraDude
2009-06-26, 08:50 PM
...Humbog, that GaiaOnline post is by someone who avi'd Lex Luthor on Gaia. I was there when that post was still pretty new, though I haven't done anything (outside of the old guilds that I've been a part of for a while now) in a looong time.

Mando Knight
2009-06-26, 09:09 PM
If Superman was really so smart he would have a built a robot which knows every possible chess move and is thus physically impossible to defeat. Scientists have already done it for checkers.

He's working on one that does so for Go instead. First he has to develop the AI to beat Batman. :smalltongue:

WitchSlayer
2009-06-26, 09:19 PM
It really just depends on which of both.
But in all seriousness, they'd probably just end up being friends. Despite misconceptions, Superman DOES know how to fight, and he DOES fight people within his strength class or greater.

dillugoa
2009-06-26, 09:31 PM
if it were batman vs goku there wouldnt be a fight at all (during the day) but at night the batman does stand a chance not a lot but he has a chance and so superman could do the same thing as goku just kil him

Mando Knight
2009-06-26, 09:58 PM
Despite misconceptions, Superman DOES know how to fight, and he DOES fight people within his strength class or greater.Enough so that he has to give a speech about the problems his strength gives him (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfCardboardSpeech) before he proceeds to remind Metropolis why they have so many apparently empty skyscrapers and invest in good insurance coverage. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfCardboardSpeech)

if it were batman vs goku there wouldnt be a fight at all (during the day) but at night the batman does stand a chance not a lot but he has a chance and so superman could do the same thing as goku just kil him
Big problem: While Goku's charging up his power, Batman calls in the Batmobile and uses the Bat-Anti-Goku-Cannon. Because a Rich Idiot with No Day Job (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RichIdiotWithNoDayJob) who makes it his business to have the weakness of every other hero on hand (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyPrepared) probably read DBZ just to figure out how to beat Goku. :smalltongue:

Mistwalker
2009-06-26, 10:36 PM
Cthulhu will come forth from R'lyeh when awoken by his servants, drive them both mad and consume their writhing flesh, before bringing about a new age of insanity and death. Only his loyal followers will dance in the songs of madness until the dark priest of the Elder Beings travels across the stars once more.

In all honesty, though, both Superman and Goku are lame characters. Every Superman story revolved around someone having kryptonite of various colors that either kill superman or do random weird crap to him, because he can't be killed in any other way. In DragonballZ and later series, they would train a bunch and defeat a villain, only to have several characters die, and get wished or brought back by the Deus Ex Machina of the story. Wash, rinse, repeat until the fans figure out there's better anime out there where characters have believable or interesting characteristics, well written plots, and better animation, like Ghost in the Shell or Cowboy Bebop. Even Inuyasha, which suffers from a bit of the same issue with always having a more powerful enemy to defeat, and never having any ultimate plot resolution, has more charm than DBZ or Superman. It has nicely painted backgrounds, interesting characters, and a bit of interesting lore surrounding the narrative. I still lose patience with it after the nth time they apparently destroy Naraku only to have him slip away or reincarnate in another form.

Or, you could always read lovecraft, and revel in stories of alien beings so far beyond us that their mere presence is enough to drive us mad, and against whom there is no hope. :D

chiasaur11
2009-06-26, 10:51 PM
Cthulhu will come forth from R'lyeh when awoken by his servants, drive them both mad and consume their writhing flesh, before bringing about a new age of insanity and death. Only his loyal followers will dance in the songs of madness until the dark priest of the Elder Beings travels across the stars once more.

In all honesty, though, both Superman and Goku are lame characters. Every Superman story revolved around someone having kryptonite of various colors that either kill superman or do random weird crap to him, because he can't be killed in any other way. In DragonballZ and later series, they would train a bunch and defeat a villain, only to have several characters die, and get wished or brought back by the Deus Ex Machina of the story. Wash, rinse, repeat until the fans figure out there's better anime out there where characters have believable or interesting characteristics, well written plots, and better animation, like Ghost in the Shell or Cowboy Bebop. Even Inuyasha, which suffers from a bit of the same issue with always having a more powerful enemy to defeat, and never having any ultimate plot resolution, has more charm than DBZ or Superman. It has nicely painted backgrounds, interesting characters, and a bit of interesting lore surrounding the narrative. I still lose patience with it after the nth time they apparently destroy Naraku only to have him slip away or reincarnate in another form.

Or, you could always read lovecraft, and revel in stories of alien beings so far beyond us that their mere presence is enough to drive us mad, and against whom there is no hope. :D

Well, then the win goes to Aquaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110181&highlight=aquaman).

WitchSlayer
2009-06-27, 12:30 AM
Hey Mistwalker, never actually read any Superman comics have you?

factotum
2009-06-27, 01:35 AM
And he never went above SS2 while fighting Majin Vegeta. When Vegeta saw Goku go SS3, he realized Goku had been going easy/toying with him for that entire fight and could have ended it near instantly if Goku had fought all out.

I thought the explanation for that was that Goku couldn't stay long in the world of the living at SS3, and since he didn't need SS3 power to stop Vegeta, he chose not to use them.

Jade_Tarem
2009-06-27, 01:51 AM
Am I the only one who remembers that Silver Age Superman *can* time travel? I'm serious.

I don't remember the exact name/number of the comic, but it's the one where the old Greek gods (Yes, Zeus and the gang) ask the Oracle how they'll be doing in a few thousand years, and she tells them that they'll all be replaced with Superman (well, that's not quite what she said, but that's how they took it). They became all ticked off and created some uber-avatar of their powers, and he went to the future to fight Superman to prove that the Olympians were better, and the first thing he did was put a magic shield between Superman and Earth (he was away from Earth at the time) that he can't break and can't outrun, since it keeps moving to block him. So Supes goes back in time (apparently a derivative of his super speed) to beat the shield. Then he fights the avatar, loses, gets some magic mojo from rival gods (Some Norse gods, Titans, and others) comes back, and wins. It was a pretty silly comic, but it did show that Superman can go time travelling whenever he wants.

Considering this, either Superman loses because he's disqualified from the OP's restrictions, or else he wins because he time travels to when he could beat Goku. It's pretty straightforward.

Here's the Wikipedia page referencing that feat. It's under Silver Age Superman's Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

Finn Solomon
2009-06-27, 02:27 AM
Dragonball Z, as a series, is pathetic.

Superman wouldn't even bother to fight what'shisname.

Demons_eye
2009-06-27, 02:28 AM
Superman's had extensive battle training with just about everyone who's a top martial artist ever. Thing of it is, simple > complicated, and that holds true in real life fighting as well. And the last time I really saw Goku use a tactic besides "hey guys, run in and get yourself beat up while I try to use my secret weapon (Spirit Bomb/getting my son angry enough to defeat the villain)" was back in Frieza Saga, with the aforementioned ki torpedoes. Coincidentally, that was the last time I enjoyed watching Goku fight.

This thread is showing I know way too much about both for my own good. =\


Super man lost to ali in a fight with no powers. In a fight with no powers goku will rape superman.

Just puting it out there saying fighting skills go to goku

Finn Solomon
2009-06-27, 02:30 AM
In that case, Batman will rape Goku. Unpowered, of course.

Demons_eye
2009-06-27, 02:34 AM
Prolly not Cuz there are no weapons just fist.

Edit: Superman only looks buff cuz that makes him look better. I mean what does he use to work out on?

Lord Seth
2009-06-27, 02:39 AM
If Superman was really so smart he would have a built a robot which knows every possible chess move and is thus physically impossible to defeat.Knowing every possible chess move does not make you impossible to defeat. Just because you know all the possibilities doesn't mean you can figure out which of the extremely high amount of possibilities is overall better for you. Not to mention how much depends on what your opponent does, which no amount of calculating can tell you for sure. If you make a move, it could potentially end up being a good one or a bad one depending on how your opponent responds. Even if you know every single way a game could go, that *still* does not guarantee victory, because you don't know what your opponents' moves will be. And again, the most important thing is *evaluating* which moves will lead to a better position, which is as far as we know impossible to program perfectly. Computers can often calculate farther ahead than human players, but human players can still beat them because they can evaluate their positions better. There also comes a time when seeing past a certain number of moves is irrelevant. Except for a few rare occasions, I doubt being able to look more than 10 moves ahead will in any way help you out compared to someone who only sees 10 moves ahead. Seeing all the possibilities the game can take in 20 moves isn't going to be more useful than seeing them in 10 moves, because almost none of the possibilities will actually happen. It's like memorizing Pi to 120 places; it might be fun trivia but in terms of practicality it's kind of worthless because science/math very rarely needs to go that far to get precise calculations.

As for the debate, it depends on which Superman we're talking about as well as what stage Goku is in in his training.

Kato
2009-06-27, 02:45 AM
Meh... I guess I gotta agree with the idea: Your favourite wins. It's just a match between to completely different beings since from completely different series.
Superman is the man of steel and about invulnerable, unless you find a glowy green stone and shove i9t up his a**.
Goku had have planet shattering powers for ages but still bleeds in about every fight he has to fight and is still able to take serious injuries,
It's something like the instoppable force hitting the immovable object.

Hm... hm... in all fairness, I can't make a real decision. I don't know if Superman has an attack strong enough to hurt Goku, if he does he might win. An th other hand I don't know if Goku will figure out something to damage Superman. If he does, it's his win.

Demons_eye
2009-06-27, 02:49 AM
Pure force can hurt super man as shown in the fight with domesday

Prime32
2009-06-27, 06:44 AM
Knowing every possible chess move does not make you impossible to defeat. Just because you know all the possibilities doesn't mean you can figure out which of the extremely high amount of possibilities is overall better for you. Not to mention how much depends on what your opponent does, which no amount of calculating can tell you for sure. If you make a move, it could potentially end up being a good one or a bad one depending on how your opponent responds. Even if you know every single way a game could go, that *still* does not guarantee victory, because you don't know what your opponents' moves will be. And again, the most important thing is *evaluating* which moves will lead to a better position, which is as far as we know impossible to program perfectly. Computers can often calculate farther ahead than human players, but human players can still beat them because they can evaluate their positions better. There also comes a time when seeing past a certain number of moves is irrelevant. Except for a few rare occasions, I doubt being able to look more than 10 moves ahead will in any way help you out compared to someone who only sees 10 moves ahead. Seeing all the possibilities the game can take in 20 moves isn't going to be more useful than seeing them in 10 moves, because almost none of the possibilities will actually happen. It's like memorizing Pi to 120 places; it might be fun trivia but in terms of practicality it's kind of worthless because science/math very rarely needs to go that far to get precise calculations.
Except that with enough memory you can stop making the computer try to predict things and just program in a "tree" of every possible board configuration, and an action to take in each possible situation. The tree for Xs and Os is simple enough that a human can learn it and be impossible to defeat.

EDIT: Most of Goku's power is a direct result of his martial arts abilities - an "unpowered" fight means that Goku forgets his training.

Mistwalker
2009-06-27, 07:40 AM
Hey Mistwalker, never actually read any Superman comics have you?

I've read a lot of them, in fact. I've not kept up on them in recent times, but that's because I'd read too many red kryptonite and Mxyzptlk stories, and got tired of that stupid ****.

By the way, I like how you make no cogent or intelligent arguments, or in fact any arguments at all, instead preferring to make a stupid accusation that because I don't like your comic book character, I must not really know anything about him. I'm sorry, but I do, which is why I think he's a lame character. If it's any comfort, he's a lame character because he's a prototype. An antique. He was the medium's first try at a superhero, and at first, he could just punch people hard, jump real high, and run real fast. The problem became when they started making up powers left and right for him to have. First it was flight, then it was laser eyes, then x-rays, then super breath, then time travel, etc etc etc. That's when he started to suck, and he's never stopped sucking. I've read them from issue one on into the issues from the seventies, missing a few issues here and there, but read most of them. Try again, bud.

Mr. Scaly
2009-06-27, 07:46 AM
Dragonball Z, as a series, is pathetic.

Superman wouldn't even bother to fight what'shisname.

I take exception to that sir! I challenge you! Ki beams at dawn!

Mando Knight
2009-06-27, 10:00 AM
Edit: Superman only looks buff cuz that makes him look better. I mean what does he use to work out on?

Eh, he probably bench presses a couple dozen whales or something.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-27, 10:01 AM
Okay, I know I'll get flamed for this, but....
Goku's not a skilled martial artist.

The dude just throws lots of punches at high speed. I've watched most of both Dragonball and DBZ, and I recall him doing anything other than a straight-up punch or kick like a half a dozen times, if that. He just moves really fast and hits really hard.

Seriously. The guy's not some martial genius. He punches hard.

In other words, he and Superman are even in that regard.

Oslecamo
2009-06-27, 10:08 AM
Seriously. The guy's not some martial genius. He punches hard.


His punches release balls of fire and allow him to fly. If that's not a martial genius then I don't know what it is:smalltongue:

KnightDisciple
2009-06-27, 10:13 AM
His punches release balls of fire and allow him to fly. If that's not a martial genius then I don't know what it is:smalltongue:

But in that universe, anyone who does enough pushups could probably do that.:smallwink:

Oslecamo
2009-06-27, 10:27 AM
But in that universe, anyone who does enough pushups could probably do that.:smallwink:

Well, considering that the main cast regurlarly goes to martial arts championships and few of their oponents can shoot fire balls, I can't say that enough pushups are enough.

Demons_eye
2009-06-27, 11:45 AM
EDIT: Most of Goku's power is a direct result of his martial arts abilities - an "unpowered" fight means that Goku forgets his training.

Naw if he could not use KI then he could not use any of his power. He knows martial art and he is physically fit to the extreme.

GoC
2009-06-27, 12:10 PM
*snip*
Knowing every possible chess move results in perfect gameplay.
Make a tree of all possible games.
Mark each endpoint that results in a win for player 1 with Win.
Mark each endpoint that results in a win for player 2 with Lose.
Mark tie endpoints as Tie.
Do the following:
Go back one move from each branch that has a Win, Lose or Tie marked on it.
Find out who's move it is.
If it's Player 1's move and one of the subbranches stemming from this branch is marked Win then mark this branch Win.
Else if it's Player 1's move and one subbranch is marked Tie mark this branch Tie.
Else if it's Player 1's move mark this branch Lose.
If it's Player 2's move and one of the subbranches is marked Lose then mark this branch Lose.
Else if it's Player 2's move and one of the subbranches is marked Tie then mark this branch Tie.
Else if it's Player 2's move then mark this branch Win.

This effectively maps chess and tells if Player 1 has a winning or tieing move in every situation irrespective of what Player 2 does. If a position is marked Win then perfect play results in a win for Player 1. Same with Tie and Lose.

Zaphrasz
2009-06-27, 12:27 PM
His punches release balls of fire and allow him to fly. If that's not a martial genius then I don't know what it is:smalltongue:Then we know for sure that he is not a martial artist, because it doesn't matter how good you are, that is physically impossible. You can argue that he's using some kind of magic, but then he isn't using martial arts, he's using magic.

Jade_Tarem
2009-06-27, 12:40 PM
Make a tree of all possible games.

The fastest computer we have, running full out, with the best algorithm we can devise for this purpose, will not be able to do this in your lifetime, or the lifetime of our sun.

Oslecamo
2009-06-27, 12:55 PM
Then we know for sure that he is not a martial artist, because it doesn't matter how good you are, that is physically impossible. You can argue that he's using some kind of magic, but then he isn't using martial arts, he's using magic.

Well martial arts or not, he's a genious by being able to shoot fire balls out if his fists.

Fan
2009-06-27, 01:00 PM
Well martial arts or not, he's a genious by being able to shoot fire balls out if his fists.

Assuredly he is a genious, for being able to do that with magic racial powers, but a GENIUS he is not.

Kris Strife
2009-06-27, 01:03 PM
Then we know for sure that he is not a martial artist, because it doesn't matter how good you are, that is physically impossible. You can argue that he's using some kind of magic, but then he isn't using martial arts, he's using magic.

Its also physically impossible to fit a 12 foot tall giant robot into a two inch capsule. :p

Oslecamo
2009-06-27, 01:12 PM
Assuredly he is a genious, for being able to do that with magic racial powers, but a GENIUS he is not.

My last post had no typos.

Fan
2009-06-27, 01:32 PM
My last post had no typos.

It still says genious, that's not how you spell Genius. :smalltongue:

Prime32
2009-06-27, 01:56 PM
Assuredly he is a genious, for being able to do that with magic racial powers, but a GENIUS he is not.Again, humans in the series can do the same thing. His racial powers essentially make him a "genius at hard work" like Rock Lee.

Oslecamo
2009-06-27, 02:11 PM
It still says genious, that's not how you spell Genius. :smalltongue:

I indeed meant genious, as in the mystical creatures wich can make wishes come true.

Kris Strife
2009-06-27, 02:13 PM
Again, humans in the series can do the same thing. His racial powers essentially make him a "genius at hard work" like Rock Lee.

But with out needing alchohol to win a fight with out getting sent to the hospital. :p

Lord Seth
2009-06-27, 02:24 PM
Knowing every possible chess move results in perfect gameplay.
Make a tree of all possible games.
Mark each endpoint that results in a win for player 1 with Win.
Mark each endpoint that results in a win for player 2 with Lose.
Mark tie endpoints as Tie.
Do the following:
Go back one move from each branch that has a Win, Lose or Tie marked on it.
Find out who's move it is.
If it's Player 1's move and one of the subbranches stemming from this branch is marked Win then mark this branch Win.
Else if it's Player 1's move and one subbranch is marked Tie mark this branch Tie.
Else if it's Player 1's move mark this branch Lose.
If it's Player 2's move and one of the subbranches is marked Lose then mark this branch Lose.
Else if it's Player 2's move and one of the subbranches is marked Tie then mark this branch Tie.
Else if it's Player 2's move then mark this branch Win.

This effectively maps chess and tells if Player 1 has a winning or tieing move in every situation irrespective of what Player 2 does. If a position is marked Win then perfect play results in a win for Player 1. Same with Tie and Lose.So, then, how would the computer decide what its first move would be?


I indeed meant genious, as in the mystical creatures wich can make wishes come true.That's "genies".

WitchSlayer
2009-06-27, 04:22 PM
I've read a lot of them, in fact. I've not kept up on them in recent times, but that's because I'd read too many red kryptonite and Mxyzptlk stories, and got tired of that stupid ****.

By the way, I like how you make no cogent or intelligent arguments, or in fact any arguments at all, instead preferring to make a stupid accusation that because I don't like your comic book character, I must not really know anything about him. I'm sorry, but I do, which is why I think he's a lame character. If it's any comfort, he's a lame character because he's a prototype. An antique. He was the medium's first try at a superhero, and at first, he could just punch people hard, jump real high, and run real fast. The problem became when they started making up powers left and right for him to have. First it was flight, then it was laser eyes, then x-rays, then super breath, then time travel, etc etc etc. That's when he started to suck, and he's never stopped sucking. I've read them from issue one on into the issues from the seventies, missing a few issues here and there, but read most of them. Try again, bud.

... Silver age/Bronze age stories then? Seriously, those were not the best years for Superman, it's like saying Batman's still the Adam West version. Superman's comics are actually better than Batman's comics in general right now! I'd even say that Superman comics have been better than Batman comics this entire decade!

KnightDisciple
2009-06-27, 04:42 PM
... Silver age/Bronze age stories then? Seriously, those were not the best years for Superman, it's like saying Batman's still the Adam West version. Superman's comics are actually better than Batman's comics in general right now! I'd even say that Superman comics have been better than Batman comics this entire decade!

I wouldn't go that far, but with recent weeks having been the idiotic "Battle for the Cowl", and before that the suspect "Batman RIP", certainly the last year has been bad for Batman.

TheSummoner
2009-06-27, 04:51 PM
I've always thought Superman was... well, boring. Hes just too super to be interesting...

Can we just say Batman beats both and end it?

chiasaur11
2009-06-27, 04:57 PM
I've always thought Superman was... well, boring. Hes just too super to be interesting...

Can we just say Batman beats both and end it?

Read All Star Superman, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, Superman #666, and Superman: Secret Identity.

You'll probably appreciate big blue more after all that.

WitchSlayer
2009-06-27, 05:37 PM
And here I thought I would have to defend the Man of Steel alone. C'mere Chiasaur, give me a big hug.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-27, 05:58 PM
And here I thought I would have to defend the Man of Steel alone. C'mere Chiasaur, give me a big hug.

Hey, he's not the only one! :smalltongue:

WitchSlayer
2009-06-27, 06:25 PM
Fine, fine. GROUP hug.

chiasaur11
2009-06-27, 06:33 PM
Fine, fine. GROUP hug.

Let's stick to high fives. Less awkward.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-27, 07:11 PM
Let's stick to high fives. Less awkward.

I agree.:smallsmile:

Thrawn183
2009-06-28, 01:08 AM
Anyone who's seen android 16 hug cell will tell you that a hug doesn't need a group to be awkward. In fact, I think that hug had more screaming and shocked expressions than any other hug in history.

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 01:14 AM
Anyone who's seen android 16 hug cell will tell you that a hug doesn't need a group to be awkward. In fact, I think that hug had more screaming and shocked expressions than any other hug in history.

I've always wondered why no one ran away when he said he was going to dentonate the nuke housed in his body... If that was enough to completely annihilate Cell's perfect form, wouldn't it have killed or at least injured everyone else as well? Krillin's the only one who knew it wouldn't go off, so he had an excuse...

Anteros
2009-06-28, 02:59 AM
I've always wondered why no one ran away when he said he was going to dentonate the nuke housed in his body... If that was enough to completely annihilate Cell's perfect form, wouldn't it have killed or at least injured everyone else as well? Krillin's the only one who knew it wouldn't go off, so he had an excuse...

Well, these people are exposed to world busting attacks on a daily basis. I guess you just get used to it?

On the speed issue. At the very beginning of the series, Piccollo states that Raditz moves faster than the speed of light. Goku is approximately 1 billion times more powerful than this. Everyone saying that he's slower than Supes is just arbitrarily saying it in order to give their side an advantage with no respect to the actual material.

As I said in the other, similar thread...I honestly think that if we take both of these characters at their full potential that neither can hurt one another without some serious cheese/plot power.

Sure Goku could teleport Supes into the after-life and leave him...and sure, Supes could develop a type of kyptonite to destroy Goku, but neither would be likely to go to these extremes. "Realistically" speaking...they'd probably just beat on each other for a while until they realized they were causing too much collateral damage, and stop.

Oslecamo
2009-06-28, 05:49 AM
On the speed issue. At the very beginning of the series, Piccollo states that Raditz moves faster than the speed of light. Goku is approximately 1 billion times more powerful than this. Everyone saying that he's slower than Supes is just arbitrarily saying it in order to give their side an advantage with no respect to the actual material.

Silver Supes can move so fast he goes back in time. I never saw Goku doing that.

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 06:02 AM
Silver Supes can move so fast he goes back in time. I never saw Goku doing that.

Yeah, and I've never seen Supes yell loud enough to rip open a hole in time and space, but someone less powerful than Goku (Regular Majin Buu) managed to do so.

Fan
2009-06-28, 06:06 AM
Yeah, and I've never seen Supes yell loud enough to rip open a hole in time and space, but someone less powerful than Goku (Regular Majin Buu)
managed to do so.

Even so, just because one of the villans ripped off his powers doesn't make supes weaker, it makes that villan stupider.:smalltongue:

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 06:09 AM
Even so, just because one of the villans ripped off his powers doesn't make supes weaker, it makes that villan stupider.:smalltongue:

Wait, what?

Fan
2009-06-28, 06:10 AM
Wait, what?

Rip offs are inherently bad, thus stupid. I use the two terms as the same often.

Oslecamo
2009-06-28, 06:23 AM
Yeah, and I've never seen Supes yell loud enough to rip open a hole in time and space, but someone less powerful than Goku (Regular Majin Buu) managed to do so.

Majin Buu can turn people into chocolates. And change his shape at will. And be cut into little pieces and reform himself. Goku can't. So even if Buu can open rifts on reality, that doesn't mean Goku can.

Plus if supes yelled high enough, he would probably destroy a planet or worst, but he's a good guy, so he doesn't take the risk of causing mass genocide just to open a rift in reality.

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 06:43 AM
Rip offs are inherently bad, thus stupid. I use the two terms as the same often.

No, where did you get something being ripped off from Supes? o.O That comment had nothing to do with what I said...

Also, Gotenks can also rip open a hole in space time by going SS3 and yelling really loud, so why not Goku?

Fan
2009-06-28, 07:07 AM
No, where did you get something being ripped off from Supes? o.O That comment had nothing to do with what I said...

Also, Gotenks can also rip open a hole in space time by going SS3 and yelling really loud, so why not Goku?

When does he do this? If you mean when their trapped in the Seven Year room, that wasn't Gotenks, that was Kid Buu who did that.

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 07:28 AM
When does he do this? If you mean when their trapped in the Seven Year room, that wasn't Gotenks, that was Kid Buu who did that.

It wasn't Kid Buu, it was Super Buu (fat+evil combined) who busted out first and closed the door behind him, leaving Piccolo and Gotenks behind. Gotenks Went SS3 and did the same yelling trick on the next episode.

Fan
2009-06-28, 07:30 AM
Eh, thats more REQUIREMENT OF PLAWT then actual power Kris. That, or it could be rationalized as Gotenks had just seen it, and had felt the type of Ki that needed to be applied, he was the only one aside from Super Buu who COULD do it.

UltraDude
2009-06-28, 08:08 AM
Gotenks is a Blue Mage.

TengYt
2009-06-28, 08:09 AM
I think we shouldn't regard abilities we haven't seen Goku doing. It's like saying Goku can turn people into chocolate just because he's seen Majin Buu do it.

Prime32
2009-06-28, 08:12 AM
Silver Supes can move so fast he goes back in time. I never saw Goku doing that.Space-fold. DBZ powers are believed to be gravity-based, which explains why all the FTL spaceships have high-gravity training areas installed.

Also, Buu has copied at least two attacks he's seen - Fat Buu copied the Kamahamaha and Kid Buu copied Instant Transmission. I thik that's the third time someone copied the Kamahama by seeing it (the previous times were Goku himself and Tien, the latter explained as a power of his third eye)

Anteros
2009-06-28, 09:07 AM
Silver Supes can move so fast he goes back in time. I never saw Goku doing that.

That only means that time travel works differently in DBZ than in the DC universe and you know it. It has nothing to do with the actual speed of the characters.

JMM
2009-06-28, 09:27 AM
...Goku could move so fast that God himself could not see him.

Insofar as absurdities go, that's quite a ways up there.

I can see the screen writer in my mind's eye, thinking, "My character is cooler than ... cooler than ... KEWLER than GOD!" :sigh:

Anteros
2009-06-28, 09:49 AM
Insofar as absurdities go, that's quite a ways up there.

I can see the screen writer in my mind's eye, thinking, "My character is cooler than ... cooler than ... KEWLER than GOD!" :sigh:

Well, in the writer's defense here. "God" in this particular instance is a fairly weak alien...so it's not as powerful as it sounds.

Prime32
2009-06-28, 09:51 AM
Well, in the screen writer's defense here. "God" in this particular instance is a fairly weak alien...so it's not as powerful as it sounds.Also, God and the Devil are parts of the same being. And later the Devil turns good and they permanently fuse together to fight a new villain... who promptly kicks God/Devil's butt.

Umm... yeah. :smallconfused:

Oslecamo
2009-06-28, 10:20 AM
That only means that time travel works differently in DBZ than in the DC universe and you know it. It has nothing to do with the actual speed of the characters.

If time travel worcks diferently, then any comparison is impossible, because we're clearly talking about two universes with very very diferent physics systems, so for all we know Goku could simply be squished into paste if he steped into supes world, or Supes would become 9000 times stronger if he entered Goku's universe.

Nevrmore
2009-06-28, 10:37 AM
If time travel worcks diferently, then any comparison is impossible, because we're clearly talking about two universes with very very diferent physics systems, so for all we know Goku could simply be squished into paste if he steped into supes world, or Supes would become 9000 times stronger if he entered Goku's universe.
Uh, hey? You can't say that their physics systems are different based on time travel because you don't know how time travel works. Nobody does. You're just making crap up at this point.

Eh, thats more REQUIREMENT OF PLAWT then actual power Kris. That, or it could be rationalized as Gotenks had just seen it, and had felt the type of Ki that needed to be applied, he was the only one aside from Super Buu who COULD do it.
And some of the crazy things that Superman has done weren't "REQUIREMENTS OF PLAWT"? The door swings both ways.

Kris Strife
2009-06-28, 10:46 AM
And some of the crazy things that Superman has done weren't "REQUIREMENTS OF PLAWT"? The door swings both ways.

Superweaving! Using X-ray vision to evaporate the town swimming hole! Chest expansion! Oh wait, the last one was Spiderman...

Oslecamo
2009-06-28, 10:56 AM
Uh, hey? You can't say that their physics systems are different based on time travel because you don't know how time travel works. Nobody does. You're just making crap up at this point.


Correction. I know how time travel worcks in the silver supes universe. By moving really fast. So if Goku can move so fast, but he doesn't go back in time, then they're working under diferent rules.

In case you didn't notice, we've been discussing nothing but crap since the begginning of this thread, as we pit mr"i throw fireballs with my muscles" who transforms into a giant monkey at full moon against mr.super everything who can use ventricolism trough the emptyness of space.

Mr. Scaly
2009-06-28, 04:17 PM
Crap or not, keep it up all. This thread is more fun than most of them. :smallbiggrin:

GoC
2009-06-29, 12:01 AM
So, then, how would the computer decide what its first move would be?
It would take any move that results in a position for Player 2 marked Win.


The fastest computer we have, running full out, with the best algorithm we can devise for this purpose, will not be able to do this in your lifetime, or the lifetime of our sun.
*ahem*

Knowing every possible chess move
We're clearly not talking about computers bound by petty things such as the size and age of the universe.

Mando Knight
2009-06-29, 12:59 AM
We're clearly not talking about computers bound by petty things such as the size and age of the universe.

Sure we are. Algebraic notation for every possible set of legal moves probably doesn't exceed a couple hundred petabytes...

Now Go, that's a game that a computer has trouble understanding and winning.

Theodoriph
2009-06-29, 01:48 AM
How anyone can cheer for superman is beyond me!

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1027_4_115.jpg

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1027_4_030.jpg

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1296_4_079.jpg

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1296_4_081.jpg


I'd link the images in spoilers, but I can't because of the the word d*ck is starred out by the filter. =) Just click and replace...it's well worth the look I assure you. That whole site is.

Prime32
2009-06-29, 06:23 AM
Fixed:

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1027_4_115.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1027_4_030.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1296_4_079.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/****/1296_4_081.jpg


Superman always believes he is right. Always. He never doubts himself.

Indon
2009-06-29, 09:51 AM
In all honesty, though, both Superman and Goku are lame characters.

I disagree - both explore and have explored more complex themes than you describe.

A couple themes in Superman are:

Autonomy - Superman is powerful enough, theoretically, to directly shepherd and rule the human race, and yet he does not because humans should be free to choose.

Fitting in - Superman is extremely not-human, essentially A God Am I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI) kind of character. And yet, the man thinks of himself as Clark Kent, a mild-mannered reporter, and wishes that that's what he could be.

An example of a prominent underlying theme of Dragonball Z is that it's spiritual purity, not just strength or whatever, that leads the good guys to win over the bad guys.

Both have other themes like this, but I can't really say I've researched it very much, I just know of them.

The reason you don't really notice these themes is that the series are old, progenitors of their genres - for the same reason we don't find the conflict between the Federation and the Klingons in Star Trek to be particularly interesting (it was exploring the Cold War) and why many people think that Lord of the Rings is about a bunch of short people walking a whole lot.

As for who would win?

My theoretical scenario: Goku would blast Superman into the sun with an energy blast. It would backfire.

Kris Strife
2009-06-29, 09:56 AM
Crap or not, keep it up all. This thread is more fun than most of them. :smallbiggrin:

I think it has to do with the fact that, rather than being the flavor of the month, this is a more perennial Vs. discussion, and that even being a fan of one or both of them, you can still usually laugh at your choice, because well... Lets be honest, they've both done some funny things. Superdickery, Goku doing handsprings on ice and slipping, cutting the wheel of a car... literally, etc.

Nevrmore
2009-06-29, 09:58 AM
Correction. I know how time travel worcks in the silver supes universe. By moving really fast. So if Goku can move so fast, but he doesn't go back in time, then they're working under diferent rules.
Right, but you can't just say something like "Oh, if the time travel is different then that means physics is totally different!" because you don't know how time travel actually works. It's never been addressed in either show, and we in real life certainly don't know a damn thing about it.

Oslecamo
2009-06-29, 11:42 AM
Right, but you can't just say something like "Oh, if the time travel is different then that means physics is totally different!" because you don't know how time travel actually works. It's never been addressed in either show, and we in real life certainly don't know a damn thing about it.

We also don't know how to shoot fireballs from our fists or heat beams from our eyes or to fly with just your internal energy or how to become a giant monky just because the full moon is up. Congratulations, you just proved how pointless the whole discussion is because we don't know a damn thing about 99.999% of the stuff that happens in both shows, thus making any logic comparison impossible.

Mr. Scaly
2009-06-29, 12:23 PM
I think it has to do with the fact that, rather than being the flavor of the month, this is a more perennial Vs. discussion, and that even being a fan of one or both of them, you can still usually laugh at your choice, because well... Lets be honest, they've both done some funny things. Superdickery, Goku doing handsprings on ice and slipping, cutting the wheel of a car... literally, etc.

And don't even get me started on the Driver's License incident!

See, this is how Vs. Threads should be. A year ago everyone was taking them way too seriously and the accusations and insults were flying from every quarter. A good 'discussion' about who could beat up who needs to be taken as what it really is...a silly argument about nerds.

Devonix
2009-06-29, 08:52 PM
Psht. I doubt Goku's energy blasts would be enough to even get past Superman's TK force fields.

GoC
2009-06-29, 09:51 PM
Sure we are. Algebraic notation for every possible set of legal moves probably doesn't exceed a couple hundred petabytes...

Care to show those calculations? I'm getting mine from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number).

A good 'discussion' about who could beat up who needs to be taken as what it really is...a silly argument about nerds.

:smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2009-06-29, 10:09 PM
Care to show those calculations? I'm getting mine from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number).

Didn't bother to do any of that before. Thanks for the info.

Thrawn183
2009-06-29, 11:25 PM
Alright, I have intentionally avoided participation in this debate so as to allow it to go where it might.

My personal opinion? Goku normally has the advantage in strength and firepower, while Supes has the advantage in indestructability. Frankly this pretty much evens out.

Therefore, I must slightly give the advantage to Goku because he has shown that, while fused with vegeta, he is still a rediculously powerful force to be reckoned with even after allowing himeslf to be turn into a jawbreaker.

Edit: Yes, I clearly understand just how silly this entire debate is.

Devonix
2009-06-30, 03:20 PM
Alright, I have intentionally avoided participation in this debate so as to allow it to go where it might.

My personal opinion? Goku normally has the advantage in strength and firepower, while Supes has the advantage in indestructability. Frankly this pretty much evens out.

Therefore, I must slightly give the advantage to Goku because he has shown that, while fused with vegeta, he is still a rediculously powerful force to be reckoned with even after allowing himeslf to be turn into a jawbreaker.

Edit: Yes, I clearly understand just how silly this entire debate is.

Yeah its silly I fully admit it yet based on the character's defined abilities I would have to give the advantage to Supes. He's got the edge on speed, durability, strength, range, and versatility.

Supes could hit him with just so many things so fast that goku wouldn't be able to defend against.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-06-30, 04:26 PM
I would say Goku if it is a fight just for fighting, if it is to save the day Supes faster flying speed and beter resilience should carry the day.

However...Goku is also in one the episodes coming face to face with 'supaman' and scares him silly because he is just soo strong.

Goku is strong enough to shatter the world just with physical attacks, the main reason he does not do so is that unlike some of his opponents he does need air to survive. The fact that he can hold his breath for very, very long is not going to help if is disoriented enough not to be able to use instant translocation.
Also, when he is reduced to a younger age he cannot do some of the stuff he could do before as he was too young suddenly :).

Prime32
2009-06-30, 04:29 PM
Also, when he is reduced to a younger age he cannot do some of the stuff he could do before as he was too young suddenly :).That was forgotten quickly - GT's Goku used Instant Transmission all the time after he achieved Super Saiyan 4.

Anteros
2009-06-30, 05:06 PM
Yeah its silly I fully admit it yet based on the character's defined abilities I would have to give the advantage to Supes. He's got the edge on speed, durability, strength, range, and versatility.

Supes could hit him with just so many things so fast that goku wouldn't be able to defend against.

No. He doesn't. It's impossible to know who is faster, stronger, etc. However, Goku is certainly more versatile than all versions of Supes except for Silver-Age...who had "the plot" as his primary power, which should probably be ignored.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 05:25 PM
No. He doesn't. It's impossible to know who is faster, stronger, etc. However, Goku is certainly more versatile than all versions of Supes except for Silver-Age...who had "the plot" as his primary power, which should probably be ignored.

Oh?

Superman, in pretty much every major incarnation has:

Multiple ranged attacks (Heat vision, freeze breath)
Incredibly good data collection systems (Telescopic and X-Ray vision, super hearing)
Wide ranging damage resistance (If it ain't Krytonitian or magic, chances are it ain't doing much, not to mention indefinite space survival)
Insane manuverability (Speed that's alway just a tiny bit slower than the flash, flight)
Superhuman strength (Exact numbers vary, but almost always better than 100 tons, usually up to moving planets)
Seems pretty versatile to me. And if we talk versatility as the watchword, the Martian Manhunter should always beat Supes, since he's Superman plus shapeshifting plus telepathy plus intanglability, (and in the silver age, well, if it was a super power, he had it. This includes spontaneous Ice Cream generation), but somehow Jones always loses in fights where Kent triumphs. There's always more to a fight than laundry lists of abilities.

Theodoriph
2009-06-30, 05:40 PM
Oh?


Insane manuverability (Speed that's alway just a tiny bit slower than the flash, flight)




Slower than the flash? What are you talking about?

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=28%3Asuperdickery&id=279%3Asuperman-just-cant-let-anyone-be-better-than-him&Itemid=54

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=194:superman-vs-flash&catid=28:superdickery&Itemid=54

JaxGaret
2009-06-30, 05:44 PM
Supes is a genius

Oh, wow, haha. Thanks, I haven't chuckled that hard in a while.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 05:48 PM
Oh, wow, haha. Thanks, I haven't chuckled that hard in a while.

Silver age comics said he was.

Primary sources have to be acknowledged even when they're obviously insane for these things. Otherwise, they're much less amusing.

Theodoriph
2009-06-30, 05:50 PM
To be fair, the comics also showed Superman being as dumb as a post. :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 05:52 PM
To be fair, the comics also showed Superman being as dumb as a post. :smalltongue:

As part of a "cunning plan" as often as not.

And by cunning, I mean insane.

JaxGaret
2009-06-30, 06:07 PM
Silver age comics said he was.

Primary sources have to be acknowledged even when they're obviously insane for these things. Otherwise, they're much less amusing.

Ah, I see. Not sure if I ever read a silver age Superman comic.

The Superman I know isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Not dumb, per se, but no wit either.

Theodoriph
2009-06-30, 06:17 PM
I have found an example of Superman's genius!

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=53&limitstart=1

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=53&limitstart=16


Clearly...he is Einsteinian!

Anteros
2009-06-30, 07:05 PM
Oh?

Superman, in pretty much every major incarnation has:

Multiple ranged attacks (Heat vision, freeze breath)
Incredibly good data collection systems (Telescopic and X-Ray vision, super hearing)
Wide ranging damage resistance (If it ain't Krytonitian or magic, chances are it ain't doing much, not to mention indefinite space survival)
Insane manuverability (Speed that's alway just a tiny bit slower than the flash, flight)
Superhuman strength (Exact numbers vary, but almost always better than 100 tons, usually up to moving planets)
Seems pretty versatile to me. And if we talk versatility as the watchword, the Martian Manhunter should always beat Supes, since he's Superman plus shapeshifting plus telepathy plus intanglability, (and in the silver age, well, if it was a super power, he had it. This includes spontaneous Ice Cream generation), but somehow Jones always loses in fights where Kent triumphs. There's always more to a fight than laundry lists of abilities.

Come on...you know as well as I do that Supes doesn't have more ranged attacks than Goku. I'm not even going to argue that with you.

As for data collection systems, Goku can feel you. He can also feel where you're going to be in the short future, and can even feel your intentions. He's also in constant psychic contact with a god, who while personally weak, can see everything in the universe.

As for damage resistance, I'd put them on about even ground. Now, Supes' resistance is more inherent, while Goku's has to be turned on...but once it's active I'd say it's about even.

As for strength and speed, it's too hard to judge who is faster. They've both shown to have planet busting strength, and they're both shown to be able to traverse the entire galaxy in miniscule amounts of time.

Basically, they're evenly matched. The one thing that I think turns this fight in Goku's favor is the fact that even if Supes beats him into a fine red paste...he'll just pop up in the after-life stronger than ever. And he has the ability to come back to life at will.

None of this is even accounting for the fact that, at the end of the manga he merges with a being who is a literal god. It never shows how this effects his power so I'm ignoring it...but it's doubtful it made him any weaker.

WitchSlayer
2009-06-30, 08:02 PM
Current comic book Superman is a pretty intelligent guy with a Pulitzer under his belt, but he's no Mr. Terrific or Steel, a lot of things have changed since the Silver Age.

Oh and Theodoriph? Those races were ties. Superman has never beaten Flash in a race, he always loses or ties. In fact, he only loses these days.

Theodoriph
2009-06-30, 10:55 PM
Ties indeed! But a tie supported my point that Superman has been shown to not be slower than The Flash. :smallbiggrin: I don't think I ever said he was faster. :smallwink:

Indon
2009-07-01, 03:18 PM
However...Goku is also in one the episodes coming face to face with 'supaman' and scares him silly because he is just soo strong.

That was a Dr. Slump character (in a crossover with Dragonball). He doesn't have notable super powers, that I recall.

Just sayin'.