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Bobmufin52
2009-06-28, 09:41 AM
I might be starting an online game with no magic at all. This obviously leaves a very small amount of classes to play due to no spell casting classes at all. Now what my question is that would it be a good idea to use a bard and just cut off the spell casting part of the class? Iím more concerned about if itís balanced with no spells over the fluff of how the bardís abilities work. If a spell-less bard isnít feasible, can anyone point me in the direction of a spell-less bard-type class?

Yora
2009-06-28, 09:53 AM
I guess until level 3 or 4, the loss of spellcasting doesn't hurt a bard too much, as he has very few of those anyway. But after that, he's just not having any other good class ability to use instead.

Roderick_BR
2009-06-28, 01:54 PM
Use the Marshal from the Miniatures handbook, and reflavor it as a bard that inspired allies with his music.

Human Paragon 3
2009-06-28, 11:32 PM
How about Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert)? Then just replace the first bonus feat with bardic music, and go into Virtuoso asap.

Bobmufin52
2009-06-29, 08:48 AM
Use the Marshal from the Miniatures handbook, and reflavor it as a bard that inspired allies with his music.

I kinda like the look of the Marshal reflavored as a Bard, that could work. My only real problem with it is that it gets heavy armor proficiency, which I just don't think is a good idea. Maybe if drop heavy armor proficiency and add a bonus feat(s)? Actually, another idea instead of bonus feats is that me and a friend of mine agreed that it wouldn't look too odd for a bard to have some sneak attack progression, would that work?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-29, 09:25 AM
I kinda like the look of the Marshal reflavored as a Bard, that could work. My only real problem with it is that it gets heavy armor proficiency, which I just don't think is a good idea. Maybe if drop heavy armor proficiency and add a bonus feat(s)? Actually, another idea instead of bonus feats is that me and a friend of mine agreed that it wouldn't look too odd for a bard to have some sneak attack progression, would that work?

The Marshal is typically weak enough that I wouldn't mind seeing the following changes:

Drop Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Add Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Music.
Grant Bardic Expertise (1/2 of class level in virtual ranks added to all skills you don't have more ranks than that in).
Allow expenditures of Bardic Music to increases uses of whatever that extra-movement ability is on something like a 2-1 rate.

This might bring it up to par as a strong support class.

Bobmufin52
2009-06-29, 09:36 AM
The Marshal is typically weak enough that I wouldn't mind seeing the following changes:

Drop Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Add Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Music.
Grant Bardic Expertise (1/2 of class level in virtual ranks added to all skills you don't have more ranks than that in).
Allow expenditures of Bardic Music to increases uses of whatever that extra-movement ability is on something like a 2-1 rate.

This might bring it up to par as a strong support class.

ok, sounds good, should I keep the auras as well? And if I do keep them, should I have to make them be activated by using a daily use of Bardic Music?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-29, 10:56 AM
ok, sounds good, should I keep the auras as well? And if I do keep them, should I have to make them be activated by using a daily use of Bardic Music?

I'd keep them exactly as is. Having a bard around can be inspiring even if her or she is doing nothing.

Either that, or have the Aura effects kick in as free attachments to the Bardic Music...you basically get those effects as well.

Bobmufin52
2009-06-29, 12:38 PM
I'd keep them exactly as is. Having a bard around can be inspiring even if her or she is doing nothing.

Either that, or have the Aura effects kick in as free attachments to the Bardic Music...you basically get those effects as well.

ok, I think I'll keep the minor auras constantly working and just call them 'auras' and have the major auras come in on bardic music effects and call them 'refrains'. I'm also thinking of chainging the Marshal's skills to the regular bard's skills with 6 skill points per level. And with that I think the class is good, thanks a ton for all the help guys! ^_^

Celebrochan
2009-06-29, 03:40 PM
So... assuming this is for 3.5 have you checked out dark sun bards? They have no magic and are pretty interesting.

Bard
Some people think a club can solve any problem. Unless youíre a giant, there are more sophisticated ways of settling a disagreement.-- Cabal, half-elven bard

From the shadowy corners of Agnasií most disreputable places hails the bard. Like their counterparts in other fantasy worlds, Agnasiian bards are the unquestioned masters of oral tradition and forgotten lore, but rather than sharing their lore with whoever will listen, Agnasiian bards guard their secrets as jealously as the sorcerer-kings harbor their water and iron. Agnasiian bards may sell information to the highest bidder; they peddle their services and the fruits of their knowledge, but trade secrets are what give bards an edge on the uninitiated. Bards would rather die than reveal these secrets. Meeting a bard can be an uneasy encounter, since one never knows how the bard has chosen to devote his multiple talents. Some bards master the art of making poisons, and survive by selling these poisons and their antidotes for those who have coin to pay. Some bards master the art of entertainment, using their performances to amuse nobles and templars and gain wealth. Some become assassins, mixing their knowledge of poison and stealth to become hired hands. Bardsí unique position in Agnasiian society means they often overhear conversations between high-ranking templars or nobles, or they may have treated an injured person that prefers to remain anonymous. Respectable folk despise them; the powerful fear them; but in the Agnasiian cities, everyone eventually comes to need their services.
Background: Bards come from all walks of life. Some are poor freemen who discovered a talent for singing or playing an instrument, and used that talent to eke out a living. Some were trained by nobles or merchant houses, becoming instruments of the politics of the nobility and merchant dynasties. Some bards are the storytellers of their village, keepers of their culture, the ancestral knowledge of their people.

Adventures: Bards may adventure for a variety of reasons. Some may travel the Tablelands as a part of performing troupes, visiting the villages and city-states to show off their entertaining abilities. Some bards travel to seek out a target, having been hired as assassins. Bards have been known to join adventurers in search of ancient lore, or simply to procure wealth. Many bards, however, prefer to make their careers in the city-states. There, they become either tools of the nobility, selling the services to the highest bidder, or they become merchants, dealing in illegal substances. The notorious Bardís Quarters of the city-states have a well-deserved reputation for being dangerous; only those with the proper skills can survive there.

Characteristics: Bards receive numerous abilities they can use to survive. Many become masters of poisons, selling their illegal substances to anyone. Alone of the classes, bards hold the secrets of alchemy, creating fiery concoctions and mysterious mixes. Bards are master smugglers, selling spell components and other illegal items in the Bardís Quarters of the city-states. All bards, however, have some degree of entertainment skill. The songs of most bards can dazzle a crowd, or incite them to riot. Bards tend to learn to play a variety of instruments, or recite poetry or old legends by campfire. They can be acrobats, performing dazzling displays of physical prowess. They are often called upon as sources of information.

Alignment: Most bards are chaotic, and operate alone, brokering information, arranging deals, smuggling illegal wares such as poisons, drugs, spell components and other things. Neutral bards are the ones most likely to operate in fellowships with adventurers, or entertain in troupes with other bards. The rare lawful bards can easily secure positions as councilors or agents for
templars, and noble and merchant houses. Good bards are often entertainers or lorekeepers, putting their talents to benevolent use, sometimes diagnosing poisonings and selling the proper antidotes. Evil bards are often masters of poisons and alchemy, selling their wares to anyone with the ceramic to pay.

Religion: No central bardic organization exists, and more often than not bards have no particular penchant for religion. Some may worship the elements, fearing the power of the elemental forces, but bards that worship sorcerer-kingsare rare. A lifestyle of breaking the rules of the city-states does not lend one to worship the lawgivers.



Table 3-1: The Bard
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +2 +2 +2 Bardic music, Bardic knowledge, Smuggler +1
2 +1 +3 +3 +3 Poison Use, Streetsmart
3 +2 +3 +3 +3 Quick Draw, Smuggler +2
4 +3 +4 +4 +4 Trade secret
5 +3 +4 +4 +4 Mental resistance, Smuggler +3
6 +4 +5 +5 +5 Quick Thinking
7 +5 +5 +5 +5 Chance 1/day, Smuggler +4
8 +6/1 +6 +6 +6 Trade Secret
9 +6/1 +6 +6 +6 Speed reactions, Smuggler +5
10 +7/2 +7 +7 +7 Slippery mind
11 +8/3 +7 +7 +7 Smuggler +6
12 +9/4 +8 +8 +8 Trade Secret
13 +9/4 +8 +8 +8 Smuggler +7
14 +10/5 +9 +9 +9 Chance 2/day
15 +11/6/1 +9 +9 +9 Defensive roll, Smuggler +8
16 +12/7/2 +10 +10 +10 Trade secret
17 +12/7/2 +10 +10 +10 Smuggler +9
18 +13/8/3 +11 +11 +11 Mindblank
19 +14/9/4 +11 +11 +11 Smuggler +10
20 +15/10/5 +12 +12 +12 Trade secret

Races: All humanoid races of Agnasi can become bards. The social stigma in certain regions may be higher than others, however. For example, the loremasters of the faens of the Jagged Cliffs are highly regarded because of the ancient secrets and histories they preserve. But in the city-states, where the Bardís Quarters are notorious, being a bard is not usually a good thing. Elven tribes often have a bard, who keeps the history of the tribe alive, its conquests and defeats. Humans are often bards, becoming performers of great talent, or assassins of deadly skill and precision. Half-elves, because of their lonely existence, often take to being bards. The prejudice they face at every stage in life can move some to become great poets or singers. Giants make poor bards; their talents are usually better served elsewhere than the stage or the shadows of alleys.

Other Classes: Bards face life as it comes, and usually hold no special grudge or awe for any one class. They usually approach otherís profession on the basis of how it can help them at the moment. Clerics and druids are respected for their devotion to a divine force, but usually not held in awe. Fighters, gladiators and rangers can be useful as sword-arms but are otherwise useless to the bard. Bards do not view wizards with the same aversion as others might view them, since bards sell them their components.
Game Rule Information
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills
True to her reputation of being a dabbler in everything but a master of nothing in particular, the Agnasiian bard has an extraordinary array of class skills to choose from.
The bardís class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand(Dex), Sneak (Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).

Skill points at first level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill points at each level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bard.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient in all simple weapons, and the following additional weapons: blowgun, bardís friend, crossbow (any), garrote, whip and widowís knife. A bard is proficient in light armor, but not shields
Bardic Music: As PHB bard benefit.
Bardic Knowledge: As PHB bard benefit.
Smuggler: At 1st level and every odd level thereafter, the bard receives a +1 insight bonus to Bluff and Slight of Hand checks.
Poison Use: Bards are trained in the use of poisons, and as of 2nd level, never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.
Streetsmart: When a bard reaches 2nd level, he gains a +2 competence bonus to Gather Information and Intimidate checks.
Quickdraw: Bards learn to strike quickly and without warning. At 3rd level, he gains the benefit of the quickdraw feat.
Trade Secrets: At every 4th level the bard learns a trade secret chosen from the list below.
-Poison dealer: Pay Ĺ of the ordinary price for raw materials needed to craft poisons.
-Scorpionís touch: Add +1 to the save DC of all poisons applied by you. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
-Skilled: Add half your bard level (rounded down) as a competence bonus to one of the following skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive or Sleight of Hand. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, each time it applies to a different skill.
-Smokestick application: You can combine inhaled poisons with smokesticks. All creatures within the area the smokestick covers (10 ft cube) are affected by the poison you applied to the smokestick. The effectiveness of the smokestick poison depends on the amount of poison applied to the smokestick. If one dose is applied, the save DC is reduced by 4. If two doses are applied, the save DC is reduced by 2. If three doses are applied, the save DC is unaffected. No more than three doses can be applied to one smokestick.
-Versatile: Select any two non-class skills. These are now considered bard class skills.
Coolheaded: You may take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks.
-Poisonbane: +4 insight bonus to Craft(Alchemy) checks when creating antitoxin and poison antidotes.
-Accurate: When you attack an armored opponent, your accuracy allows you to ignore 1 point of natural armor bonus to AC or 1 point of armor bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
-Agile: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
-Poison resistance: +4 bonus to saving throws against poisons.
-Mental Resistance: Bards carry many dark secrets they would prefer remain secret. This, combined with a large amount of knowledge based on half-truths and false rumors makes a bardís mind unreliable to those who would seek to mentally affect it. At 5th level a bard receives a +2 morale bonus to saves made against telepathic powers and enchantment/charm spells.
Quick Thinking: Bards often find themselves in a tight spot where they have to act quickly, whether it is to escape a templar patrol or strike first when in confrontation with a foe. At 6th level bards gain +2 bonus to initiative. This bonus stacks with Improved Initiative and any other sources that increase initiative.
Chance: Bards live on the edge in many ways. At 7th level a bard may reroll one single d20 roll once per day, but has to keep the latter resultófor better or for worse. At 14th level the bard may use this ability two times per day.
Speed Reactions: When a bard of 9th level or higher uses the attack action or full attack action in melee, he may subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to her initiative. This number may not exceed the bardís base attack bonus. The bard may not make ranged attacks this round. The initiative increase takes effect on the next round. The new initiative is the bardís initiative for the remainder of the combat, unless he were to use Speed reactions again, which would increase her initiative further.
Slippery Mind: At 10th level, the bard receives the Slippery Mind ability, as the rogue special ability in the Playerís Handbook.
Defensive Roll: A bard of 15th or higher level learns how to avoid a potentially lethal blow. He gains the ability to reduce damage from a knockout blow, as described in the rouge Defensive Roll ability.
Mind Blank: At 18th level the bardís mind becomes completely sealed against involuntary intrusion as per the spell mindblank. This spell-like ability is always considered active.

Bobmufin52
2009-06-29, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Celebrochan;6392689]So... assuming this is for 3.5 have you checked out dark sun bards? They have no magic and are pretty interesting.[QUOTE]

Yhea, I know about the dark sun bard, and I really don't like it at all, it's too... evil for my game. idk it's just that the smuggler ability and a lot of the trade secrets just arn't what I want the bards in my game to have. :/ Thans for the post thought.