Opioins needed: Overcharge Spell

[Zeful]

I created a new feat and I was wondering what you guys thought

Overcharge Spell [Metamagic]
You are adept at adding raw power to your spells despite the risk...
Prerequisitets: Highten Spell, caster level 5th, and one addional Metamagic feat
Benefit: You may expend an addional spell slot to increase the power of your spells proportionally (level zero spells provide no benefit). The spell save DC for the spell being cast is increased by one point for each level of the spell expended (and caster level checks to overcome SR also receive a bonus of this amount). Damage is also increased by one die per level of the spell expended(this can go higher than the spells limit. This enormous power comes with a risk, however. Everytime you use this ability you risk losing both the spell you are casting, as well as taking backlash equal to 1d6 for every spell level of the sacrificed spell slot . To avoid this you must make a concentration check equal to 15+total spells levels. Example Hennet at 6th with a 18 charisma casts an Overcharged Lightning Bolt at an Erinye, sacrificing an addional 2nd level spell slot to increase the DC from 17 to 19, increasing his caster level check to overcome SR by 2, and increasing damage to 8d6 damage. To avoid losing the spell in question, as well as avoid the 2d6 backlash, he must make a concentraion check of 20.

What do you guys think?

[Abd al-Azrad]

I think you should probably standardize the transformations. Like, add +1 caster level per spell level sacrificed (and don't use the word, "sack," when writing game material) and +1 DC per 2 levels sacrificed.
Losing random spells could be very difficult to determine for either player or DM. How, pray tell, does one choose which spells to randomly lose? I'd suggest, if you fail the check, you simply lose the spell you were trying to cast (and you've already given up the spell you were sacrificing) as if failing to cast defensively.
And why, 13+total spell levels for the Concentration check? Seems kind of arbitrary. 10+spell level, or 15+spell level, are more standard.

Is this a metamagic feat where you must apply it to spells beforehand, or a general feat?

[The White Knight]

I created a new feat and I was wondering what you guys thought

Overcharge Spell
You are adept at adding raw power to your spells despite the risk
Prerequisitets: Highten Spell, caster level 5th, and one addional Metamagic feat
Benefit: You may expend an addional spell slot to increase the power of your spells proportionally (level zero spells provide no benefit). The spell save DC for the spell being cast is increased by one-half the level of the spell expended (and caster level checks to overcome SR also receive a bonus of this amount). Damage is also increased by one die per level of the spell expended. This enormous power comes with a risk, however. Everytime you use this ability you risk losing both the spell you are casting, as well as the spell you are sacrificing to overcharge it. To avoid this you must make a concentration check equal to 13+total spells levels. Example Hennet at 6th with a 18 charisma casts an overcharged lightning bolt at an Erinyes, sacrificing an addional 2nd level spell slot to increase the DC from 17 to 18, increasing his caster level check to overcome SR by 1, and increasing damage to 9d6 damage. To avoid losing both spells in question, he must make a concentraion check of 18.

I modified your original post to something I figure might be appropriate. Your 'risk' seemed a little steep to me. Additionally, I cleaned up some of the terms you used, as it was somewhat vague what you meant in some spots (for example, you mentioned a boost to caster level checks, yet demonstrated with an increase in DC... so I gave it both). Otherwise, I like the concept.

EDIT: simul-post, it would seem.

[Zeful]

Well the penalty is there to keep caster from abusing the ability. Other wise they'll cast nearly all there spells overchaged which would be a bad thing (in my opinoin). As for randomly choosing which spells are lost your right Abd al-Azrad, it would be too hard to figure that out. As for the Concentration checks 15 may be more standered but I feel that makes it too hard. An example Hennet at level 6th level would instead have to make a roll of 20 and not 18. If he had a 12 constituion and max ranks which would be... 9 for class skills he would... Ahh... I see, changing Concentration DC.
Now my first version had caster lose all there spells for the day.

Revised Overcharge spell
Overcharge Spell [metamagic]
You are adept at adding raw power to your spells despite the risk...
Prerequisitets: Highten Spell, caster level 5th, and one addional Metamagic feat
Benefit: You may expend an addional spell slot to increase the power of your spells proportionally (level zero spells provide no benefit). The spell save DC for the spell being cast is increased by one-half the level of the spell expended (and caster level checks to overcome SR also receive a bonus of this amount). Damage is also increased by one die per level of the spell expended. This enormous power comes with a risk, however. Everytime you use this ability you risk losing both the spell you are casting, as well as the spell you are sacrificing to overcharge it. To avoid this you must make a concentration check equal to 15+total spells levels. Example Hennet at 6th with a 18 charisma casts an overcharged lightning bolt at an Erinyes, sacrificing an addional 2nd level spell slot to increase the DC from 17 to 18, increasing his caster level check to overcome SR by 1, and increasing damage to 9d6 damage. To avoid losing both spells in question, he must make a concentraion check of 18.

This is modified off white knight's version which has fewer logic errors and correct spelling.

[Everyman]

I like the idea of pumping up a spell's potential damage, but the drawback seems a tad weird. I would expect that forcing two spells worth of energy into one spell would risk it simply exploding in your face, not losing more power. Rather than making a feat that is a tad complicated, try this:

Overcharge Spell [Metamagic]
You are adept at adding raw power to your spells despite the risk...
Prerequisites: Highten Spell, any other metamagic feat, caster level 5th
Benefit: You may expend an addional spell slot to increase the power of your spells proportionally (level zero spells provide no benefit). The spell save DC for the spell being cast is increased by level of the spell expended. If the spell deals any form of damage, that damage is also by one die per level of the spell expended. This enormous power comes with a risk, however. Everytime you use this ability you risk losing both the spell you are casting and potential damage. Upon casting the spell, the caster must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 15 + expended spell level) or lose the spell as well as taking damage equal to the expended spell's level. For example, Mialee is preparing a fireball spell and chooses to expend one of her 2nd level spell slots to overcharge it. Mialee's fireball has a DC 2 higher and does 2d6 more damage than normal. However, when Mialee finally casts the overcharged fireball, she must succeed on a DC 17 Concentration check or lose the spell and take 2d6 points of damage from the backlash of energy.

There really is no point in mentioning the caster losing the expended spell, as that is just part of the cost of the ability. Also, you'll notice that I left out caster level adjustments in my version. It just seems to be opening a lot of room for some munchkinry. Oh, and made all adjustments based solely on spell level, point for point. I don't like having to worry about math, so doing "half" or "1.5" or anything like that just seems to be cluttering up the gaming experience.

[Zeful]

Okay damage I didn't think of it's good, it's gooood
As for the poin for point exchange I tried that at the WotC forums and one person didn't like the idea of a DC 39 Disintigrate even though the caster sacked two 9th level spell slots, which makes sence. But then it leaves the feat a little less potent.

What about spells without die effects how would they be afffected by this spell. I have yet to figure out how spells like mage armor would be increased.

As for munchkin abuse leave them alone with anything long enough and it becomes broken. a perfectly resonable senario. A 10th level wizard casts an overcharged Bull's Strenght spell throwing out a 6th level spell slot to do so 6d4 (or something) strength increase.

Overall good advise, thank you.

[Everyman]

Well, part of the WotC issue rises from a misunderstanding of what is written. The feat says "an additional spell", not "addition spells". A caster should only be able to expend one spell with this feat per overcharge. So there's no issue there.

Second, an overcharged bull's strength will not give you extra d6s worth of strength. All that would happen would be upping the DC to resist (and frankly, who would?). My version only tacks on extra dice if the spell does damage. Yeah, that makes some spells useless or less attractive for being overcharged, but that's okay.

[The White Knight]

There are metamagic feats that are specifically for certain types of spells (maximize being the first that comes to mind, which only affects spells with random, numeric effects), so it doesn't at all seem unreasonable that this feat would only apply to spells with damage (or healing?) dice. Lord knows there's enough of them.

Additionally, the bonus granted might need to be revised again. For example, a spell that deals xd# damage per 2 caster levels but has a neat little bonus effect is going to reap more benefit from this feat than something that deals xd# damage per caster level. As such, the following clause should likely be added:
"If the spell you are casting receives bonus dice for each caster level you possess, it increases in power by 1 die per level of the spell expended. If the spell receives bonus dice for every two or more caster levels you possess, it instead increases in power by 1 die per two levels of the spell expended."
Well, maybe. My 2cp anyways (or is it 4cp now?)

[Zeful]

Highten feat would allow the caster to cast desintigrate as a 9th level spell, Overcharge would allow another 9th level slot to be expended pumping the save DC through the roof. As for caster level checks I included it becase an overchaged Dispel Magic would be better able to dispel magic. Overcharged healing would be incredable as it would gain at very high levels +9 dice. I ment this feat to be powerful but I wanted some big drawback to keep it's use in check.
As such
Overcharge Spell [Metamagic]
You are adept at adding raw power to your spells despite the risk...
Prerequisitets: Highten Spell, caster level 5th, and one addional Metamagic feat
Benefit: You may expend an addional spell slot to increase the power of your spells proportionally (level zero spells provide no benefit). The spell save DC for the spell being cast is increased by one point for each level of the spell expended (and caster level checks to overcome SR also receive a bonus of this amount). Damage is also increased by one die per level of the spell expended(this can go higher than the spells limit. This enormous power comes with a risk, however. Everytime you use this ability you risk losing both the spell you are casting, as well as taking backlash equal to 1d6 for every spell level of the sacrificed spell slot . To avoid this you must make a concentration check equal to 15+total spells levels. Example Hennet at 6th with a 18 charisma casts an Overcharged Lightning Bolt at an Erinye, sacrificing an addional 2nd level spell slot to increase the DC from 17 to 19, increasing his caster level check to overcome SR by 2, and increasing damage to 9d6 damage. To avoid losing the spell in question, as well as avoid the 2d6 backlash, he must make a concentraion check of 20.

This is closest to what I belive the feat should be.

[TomBoniface]

With the number of Metamagic pre-req's seems unlikely that a Sorc willl casually take this one. OTOH at high levels a Sorc can sacrifice a 9th level spell to add to say magic missile. This gives good spell penetration (equal to a 10th level spell) and will do 5d4+5+9d6 no save - for an average of 49 points. Not too much at that level, considering you just used a 9th level spell.
So yeah it seem's OK - might take it, might not. Which is just the point where a proposed feat is theoretically balanced.

[The_Beast_Rabban]

With the number of Metamagic pre-req's seems unlikely that a Sorc willl casually take this one. OTOH at high levels a Sorc can sacrifice a 9th level spell to add to say magic missile. This gives good spell penetration (equal to a 10th level spell) and will do 5d4+5+9d6 no save - for an average of 49 points. Not too much at that level, considering you just used a 9th level spell.
So yeah it seem's OK - might take it, might not. Which is just the point where a proposed feat is theoretically balanced.
That can't be right ??? Why are you adding 9d6 surely it would be 9d4 if anything. This would bring down the average to 40 not 49.

Also magic missiles can be used to hit multiple targets so how do you split the additonal damage?

Another point is would MM be affected in this way? MM is a spell where the damage does not increase with level but you gain additional missiles by level so would you gain 9d4 damage or an additonal missile per 2 levels of spell sacrificed? If you recieve additonal missiles instead then in the above example you would get 10 MMs (5 for caster level and 5 additonal for spell sacrifice) doing d4+1 damage each for an average of 35 points but could select 10 targets.

Just a thought

[Zeful]

It would be +9d4 because it adds dice, that's why a overcharged cure light wounds (dropping a 9th level spell) would add 9d8 dice to the spell but you take 9d6 backlash damage if you fail you concentration check. It would be five missles doing 10d4+5 (9 dice from overcharge 1 die from the spell normally) spread out among the five missles so each one would be doing 2d4+1 damage apeice. averaging about 9 damage a missle(i think).

I'm still tring how to add a benefit to spells without dice. Like mage armor

[The_Beast_Rabban]

It would be +9d4 because it adds dice, that's why a overcharged cure light wounds (dropping a 9th level spell) would add 9d8 dice to the spell but you take 9d6 backlash damage if you fail you concentration check. It would be five missles doing 10d4+5 (9 dice from overcharge 1 die from the spell normally) spread out among the five missles so each one would be doing 2d4+1 damage apeice. averaging about 9 damage a missle(i think).

I'm still tring how to add a benefit to spells without dice. Like mage armor

The damage would be 5d4+5+9d4 so 14d4+5 in all split over 5 missiles would be 2.8 d4 + 1 per missile for an average of 8 HP per missile

[Zeful]

Okay that's what I forgot.

Anyway about spells without dice how would they be affected? Still haven't figured that out.

[The_Beast_Rabban]

Possibly up the duration, caster level or range? It all depends on the spell.

I think it may need to be a feat that can only be used for certain types of spells (ie spells that rely on dice for outcomes) or you will need a list of how it effects every spell in the lists (way too much work).

Edit - for grammar

[SpiderBrigade]

I'm not quite ready to delve into the balance discussion yet, but the following keeps bothering me:
Example Hennet at 6th with a 18 charisma casts an Overcharged Lightning Bolt at an Erinyes, sacrificing an additional 2nd level spell slot to increase the DC from 17 to 19, increasing his caster level check to overcome SR by 2, and increasing damage to 9d6 damage.(Emphasis mine)

Lightning bolt does 1d6/caster level. So his normal bolt is 6d6. Sacrificing a second-level spell only adds two dice...right? So 8d6.

[Zeful]

Thats true I wonder why I didn't notice that before

[kilos]

leve it as it is exept add that a spell that adds dice every two levels gets an extra die for every two levels of the slot sacked. spells that don't use dice aren't affrected and spells that don't GAIN dice (like magic missile) gain an extra dice for, say, every three levels (because they don't normaly gain dice in this way, so for a magic missile that has 5 missiles (a normal total or 5d4) would gain 3d4 to spread out among the missiles). I think i may use this while DMing, with my personal changes listed above of course.

[Zeful]

Thats okay I like my version you like yours, they both seem balanced and they add flavor. This came about with my rampant imagination about realistic magic(oxymoron I know). It's good to see an other DM see it as useful.

[kilos]

no no, realistic magic isn't an oxymoron, one could argue that most of the lower level magics were made to be somewhat realistic. of corse the point of magic was to bend reality but that doesn't mean it can't be realistic.

[Wardog]

How about saying that by sacrificing an x level spell, you can increase your caster level by x, for any one aspect of a spell that is caster-level dependent.

So by sacrificing a 2nd level spell you could:
* Add 2 damage dice to a spell that gains dice per level
* Add 1 damage die to a spell that gains one die per level
* Increase spell duration for spells that have a level-dependent duration
* Increase save DC for spells that have a level-dependent DC

etc

[kilos]

yea, but that would make the drawback too much.

[Jestir256]

Why exactly do you want this feat?

[Zeful]

Because I feel that WotC doesn't provide alot of realistic magic suppliment. The thought process for this feat went somthing like this. "Magic in D&D is an external energy that works like any form of energy so somebody somewhere would of had to try dumping more power into the spell than nessisary and getting a greater effect." See where I'm coming from?