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View Full Version : Alex Mercer (Prototype) vs. Samus Aran



Leliel
2009-06-29, 09:53 PM
I was playing Prototype the other day, and I thought "You know what would really give Blackwatch half of a chance at beating Mercer? Samus Aran. I mean, he's a crazy alien monster, she has the experience after all..."

Next thought: "VERSUS THREAD!"

So, here's the arena and setup:

1: The battlefied is a giant GF space station with lots of crew (who really should have looked up the "sociopathic maneating shapeshifter" in the brochure). Samus, of course, doesn't want to kill them, but then again, Alex has a tendancy to look like people he absorbs.

2: Samus has full acess to all of her upgrades, and Alex is at similar power levels to what you obtain near the end of the game.

So, will Samus triumph, and stop the rampage of Blacklight (that isn't really a spoiler, you find out Alex is infected early in the Web of Intrigue)? Or will Mercer consume his earstwhile opponent, and gain control of the Power Suit (and causing the general hyigene of Blackwatch bases to spontaneously drop due to excrement)?

You decide!

Sholos
2009-06-29, 10:13 PM
Let me ask something. Is Alex vulnerable to things besides extreme (and I do mean extreme) cold? Yes? Samus wins.

I mean, seriously, we're talking about a single person who genocided an entire race of aliens that make the Flood look like ants. Samus wins this with ease.

chiasaur11
2009-06-29, 10:18 PM
Let me ask something. Is Alex vulnerable to things besides extreme (and I do mean extreme) cold? Yes? Samus wins.

I mean, seriously, we're talking about a single person who genocided an entire race of aliens that make the Flood look like ants. Samus wins this with ease.

Why would extreme cold be a problem?

Sammy does have the Ice Beam.

Samus can kill her way through planets of highly advanced aliens. People were arguing if everyone from the Haloverse, working together, could stop her. One shape shifting sociopath barely qualifies as a mid boss.

Mando Knight
2009-06-29, 11:21 PM
Why would extreme cold be a problem?

Sammy does have the Ice Beam.

And far more than five missiles. And the will to destroy anything that's close to an Eldritch Abomination. And has the Scan Visor (Read: Broken-Awesome Haxxor device of All-Knowing). If Alex can't discorporate into a gelatinous pile of goo and infect Samus that way, he'll have to do it the hard way: combat. And since she's fully-powered Samus Aran, she's got more than enough shielding to take blows from 50-foot whatevers and more missiles than an infantry platoon. And her signature Ice Beam.

Thrawn183
2009-06-29, 11:28 PM
Ice Beam, I thought it was Ice Missiles. Maybe I'm behind on my Samus-fu.

UltraDude
2009-06-29, 11:33 PM
Ice Beam, I thought it was Ice Missiles. Maybe I'm behind on my Samus-fu.

She has those too.

Nevrmore
2009-06-29, 11:42 PM
I never understand why people always seem to think that Samus would just beat the crap out of her opponent with no effort in these kinds of threads. I think Mercer could give her a run for her money, at least.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:02 AM
I never understand why people always seem to think that Samus would just beat the crap out of her opponent with no effort in these kinds of threads. I think Mercer could give her a run for her money, at least.

I agree.

I share the same sentiments with Batman and Squirrel Girl sometimes people carry memetic mutation too far and say that just because the character is badass, they beat them just because they are without good logic to back it up.

I mean what stops someone from just shooting batman in the head? or Squirrel Girl? or someone dropping a nuke on Samus? or shooting Superman in the head with a kryptonite bullet? or and anyone and anything else like that? realistically all these "badasses" could be killed with very simple and easy to come by methods, I don't really think they are THAT invincible.

Thormag
2009-06-30, 12:06 AM
I agree.

I share the same sentiments with Batman and Squirrel Girl sometimes people carry memetic mutation too far and say that just because the character is badass, they beat them just because they are without good logic to back it up.

I mean what stops someone from just shooting batman in the head? or Squirrel Girl? or someone dropping a nuke on Samus? or shooting Superman in the head with a kryptonite bullet? or and anyone and anything else like that? realistically all these "badasses" could be killed with very simple and easy to come by methods, I don't really think they are THAT invincible.

Because that takes the fun out of it?

Piedmon_Sama
2009-06-30, 12:23 AM
I agree on the Batman part but come on, Squirrel Girl is cute, would you WANT to see her die? :C

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 12:24 AM
I agree.

I share the same sentiments with Batman and Squirrel Girl sometimes people carry memetic mutation too far and say that just because the character is badass, they beat them just because they are without good logic to back it up.

I mean what stops someone from just shooting batman in the head? or Squirrel Girl? or someone dropping a nuke on Samus? or shooting Superman in the head with a kryptonite bullet? or and anyone and anything else like that? realistically all these "badasses" could be killed with very simple and easy to come by methods, I don't really think they are THAT invincible.

Kryptonite bullet?

Been tried. Failed. "Faster than a speeding bullet" ain't hyperbole.

Batman's got Kevlar in the cowl, and quite probably, the drop on you. Bullets could stop him if you aimed right and got a shot, but he's trained his whole life to avoid that scenario. Not that it can't happen, but it's unlikely for anyone but the best of the best to even get one chance at it. And if they fail, there's a fair chance they'll develop phobias bad enough to ensure the second time goes as bad as the first.

Samus, well, maybe a nuke would work. If she didn't shoot your ship out of the sky first. She rolls with the best hits the future's best ground weapons can fire off (including some very powerful turrets) and has shown a remarkable knack for outrunning huge explosions, but if it hits, it should at least take out almost all of an endgame level armor setup.

Shooting Squirrel Girl...

You have some kind of squirrel related death wish? "The Slayer of all which Breathes" AKA "The Antilife" stopped with mere bullets? She's what the gods of the 4th world have sought without success in a cute squirrel themed package. Bullets against her are like peashooters against a modern armored division.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:28 AM
Because that takes the fun out of it?

yea but it seems kinda obnoxious that people would just assume that because "X is super-totally-freakin-awesomely-badass" they automatically win which also ain't fun either, because really, to me just because Batman "is the goddam batman" doesn't justify him being able to take on everyone- for example Dr.Manhattan can't even be killed by removing his Intrinsic field, since he has no weakness for batman to exploit he automatically loses no matter how badass Batman apparently may be, his badassitude relies on his opponent actually having an exploitable clear-cut weakness, same would go for someone like Goku- since Goku is basically Superman without Kryptonite factor, how could batman hope to beat him since only other people of Goku's power level could beat him? answer: he couldn't, Goku would kill him, and what if batman were to be attacked by something like a giant mecha? brains matter little when a 100 ft tall something-megaton super-armored thing comes crashing in, wrecks up Gotham in a matter of minutes and stomps on him.

I'm not saying we should take the fun out of it- I'm just saying we should stop assuming that just because a character has a long history, is well liked and more popular, and has faced more enemies, "is more baddass" and such, that we automatically assume that person wins.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:29 AM
I agree on the Batman part but come on, Squirrel Girl is cute, would you WANT to see her die? :C

a jealous girl who takes on the identity of a squirrel-hunting predator super hero.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-30, 12:32 AM
Mercer would win. Considering he can rip apart a tank with his bare hands or cutt it in half, I would say if he gets in close, samus is very much screwed.

Also, mercer has regeneration - he HAS been shot in the head multiple times, can take a rocket launcher directly to the gutt and not even flinch, and his ability to heal via consuming enemys even if you DO manage to hurt him (aka, the people in the environment you stated act like hp pots to him).

Their is also no evidence 'cold' would hurt him in any way. Stick to facts peeps. :P

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:35 AM
Kryptonite bullet?

Been tried. Failed. "Faster than a speeding bullet" ain't hyperbole.

Batman's got Kevlar in the cowl, and quite probably, the drop on you. Bullets could stop him if you aimed right and got a shot, but he's trained his whole life to avoid that scenario. Not that it can't happen, but it's unlikely for anyone but the best of the best to even get one chance at it. And if they fail, there's a fair chance they'll develop phobias bad enough to ensure the second time goes as bad as the first.

Samus, well, maybe a nuke would work. If she didn't shoot your ship out of the sky first. She rolls with the best hits the future's best ground weapons can fire off (including some very powerful turrets) and has shown a remarkable knack for outrunning huge explosions, but if it hits, it should at least take out almost all of an endgame level armor setup.

Shooting Squirrel Girl...

You have some kind of squirrel related death wish? "The Slayer of all which Breathes" AKA "The Antilife" stopped with mere bullets? She's what the gods of the 4th world have sought without success in a cute squirrel themed package. Bullets against her are like peashooters against a modern armored division.

this is what I'm talking about............you assume just because "character wouldn't die to that because of X!" it automatically means they wouldn't die, it just means ITS SLIGHTLY LESS LIKELY.

just because Batman has prepared for it, doesn't mean he won't die of it.

just because Samus might do something doesn't mean she WILL do it.

just because Squirrel Girl is cute, doesn't mean she is invincible.

oh and for superman? more dakka.

UltraDude
2009-06-30, 12:36 AM
I'd call Samus considerably more durable than a modern tank, as well as faster and more agile.

Not knowing anything about Mercer myself, I'd imagine his regen has limitations.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:40 AM
I'd call Samus considerably more durable than a modern tank, as well as faster and more agile.

Not knowing anything about Mercer myself, I'd imagine his regen has limitations.

his regen is based upon taking other peoples life force. if many people are around he could just kidnap someone retreat with them in hand and suck it up like a meal then come back, attack Samus again and wash rince repeat

if not a lot or no people are around he would have to use his stone fist shapeshift form which I know for a fact can smash through heavy armor (I played Prototype) to smash Samus to bits pretty fast, and he would have to get real close, their fighting styles are opposites- Samus is ranged, Mercer is melee.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 12:42 AM
just because Samus might do something doesn't mean she WILL do it.

just because Squirrel Girl is cute, doesn't mean she is invincible.

oh and for superman? more dakka.

Samus tends to manage. Mercer rips up tanks? Samus gives humongous mecha the explodo all the time, and has weapons that completely incinerate the target.

More firepower tends to do exactly jack diddly to the man of steel. Invulnerability's nice like that.

And Squirrel Girl, you're right. She's not invincible because she's cute. She's invincible because she's absurdly godlike in combat, with scientists calling her "The Anti-Life". The cute is nice, but irrelevant.

Just because fanboys exaggerate doesn't mean the guys in question aren't scary good.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:50 AM
Samus tends to manage. Mercer rips up tanks? Samus gives humongous mecha the explodo all the time, and has weapons that completely incinerate the target.

More firepower tends to do exactly jack diddly to the man of steel. Invulnerability's nice like that.

And Squirrel Girl, you're right. She's not invincible because she's cute. She's invincible because she's absurdly godlike in combat, with scientists calling her "The Anti-Life". The cute is nice, but irrelevant.

Just because fanboys exaggerate doesn't mean the guys in question aren't scary good.

remember? Kryptonite bullets? listening? you? read thread before you post? this getting to you? hello? no? how good is your attention span? none? oh right, think better next time

so? Mercer can still smash through her armor with his stone fists, she still dies.

uh no......how is she "absurdly godlike in combat"? not specific enough, and, just because someone is a very powerful warrior doesn't mean they don't die to bullets, take the most badass, strongest best most badass fighter from Greek, Roman or Medieval times.

now put them in modern times and start shooting.
who wins? you.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 01:02 AM
remember? Kryptonite bullets? listening? you? read thread before you post? this getting to you? hello? no? how good is your attention span? none? oh right, think better next time

so? Mercer can still smash through her armor with his stone fists, she still dies.

uh no......how is she "absurdly godlike in combat"? not specific enough, and, just because someone is a very powerful warrior doesn't mean they don't die to bullets, take the most badass, strongest best most badass fighter from Greek, Roman or Medieval times.

now put them in modern times and start shooting.
who wins? you.

Not if you're a really bad shot.

And more Kryptonite bullets? Well, maybe, but in the silver age, nine times out of ten that sort of thing led to a fantastic new power saving him that never shows up again, and in modern comics that much Krytonite would be a pain to find. Also, there's the whole he can cut you off before you blink the instant he sees the darn thing with his telescopic and X-Ray vision.

Squirrel Girl...

You just don't get it, do you? She fought Doom, Thanos, Bi-Beast, MODOK, AIM, Pluto (The roman god) and Deadpool, and each time won handily. The villains in question lost in the most humiliating manner possible. She cannot be stopped. She will not be stopped. Her conscience and general decency are the only things between the MU as it is, and an usually large pile of corpses being devoured by squirrels. She isn't a god. She's worse. She's death itself, come for you personal, and nothing in the universe can save your life if she wants you dead.

NOTHING.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:08 AM
Not if you're a really bad shot.

And more Kryptonite bullets? Well, maybe, but in the silver age, nine times out of ten that sort of thing led to a fantastic new power saving him that never shows up again, and in modern comics that much Krytonite would be a pain to find. Also, there's the whole he can cut you off before you blink the instant he sees the darn thing with his telescopic and X-Ray vision.

Squirrel Girl...

You just don't get it, do you? She fought Doom, Thanos, Bi-Beast, MODOK, AIM, Pluto (The roman god) and Deadpool, and each time won handily. The villains in question lost in the most humiliating manner possible. She cannot be stopped. She will not be stopped. Her conscience and general decency are the only things between the MU as it is, and an usually large pile of corpses being devoured by squirrels. She isn't a god. She's worse. She's death itself, come for you personal, and nothing in the universe can save your life if she wants you dead.

NOTHING.

I'm talking about realism here. for Superman realistically there IS NO PLOT SAVING DEUS EX MACHINA POWER. he just DIES.

as for Squirrel Girl I don't see what fighting all those people have to do with simply shooting her in the head, all those guys tried to use super-fanatastical impractical superpowers or something contrived and over-the-top thing like that, all I have to is:

Me: Hey Squirrel girl!

Squirrel Girl: what?

*bang*
*Squirrel Girl falls over dead*

Me: too easy.

just because you say she is a god, doesn't mean she is a god, that just means your a deluded over-hyping fanboy.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 01:16 AM
I'm talking about realism here. for Superman realistically there IS NO PLOT SAVING DEUS EX MACHINA POWER. he just DIES.

as for Squirrel Girl I don't see what fighting all those people have to do with simply shooting her in the head, all those guys tried to use super-fanatastical impractical superpowers or something contrived and over-the-top thing like that, all I have to is:

Me: Hey Squirrel girl!

Squirrel Girl: what?

*bang*
*Squirrel Girl falls over dead*

Me: too easy.

just because you say she is a god, doesn't mean she is a god, that just means your a deluded over-hyping fanboy.

No. She doesn't. If that worked, Thanos, or Victor Von Doom, or Pluto (who is, let us be clear, a dead to rights no fooling classic myth and all GOD) would have been able to pull it. They. Lost.

She wins. Seriously, read a couple of comics with her, or at least her wiki page. Beating whoever she fights with ease is one of her defining character traits, alongside a lovably sunny personality and the whole squirrel bit.

Deadpool, AKA he of the fourth wall breakery and meta knowledge no man should know, puts her in the top tier of marvel heroes. And even ignoring all that, she's got superhuman agility, which tends in comics to let you dodge bullets.

Sholos
2009-06-30, 01:23 AM
I think some people don't actually know just how powerful Samus is. Samus probably would ignore a modern tank. If it shot her, she might be annoyed. Then she'd destroy it without much thought.

Also, Alex can regen. Okay. Now, why does anyone think that Samus is going to let him do that?

Also, look at Ridley. Dude's gotta be at least 60-70 feet tall. Samus takes hits from him and doesn't get torn up. She'll barely notice Alex.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:24 AM
No. She doesn't. If that worked, Thanos, or Victor Von Doom, or Pluto (who is, let us be clear, a dead to rights no fooling classic myth and all GOD) would have been able to pull it. They. Lost.

She wins. Seriously, read a couple of comics with her, or at least her wiki page. Beating whoever she fights with ease is one of her defining character traits, alongside a lovably sunny personality and the whole squirrel bit.

Deadpool, AKA he of the fourth wall breakery and meta knowledge no man should know, puts her in the top tier of marvel heroes. And even ignoring all that, she's got superhuman agility, which tends in comics to let you dodge bullets.

so? memetic badass logic doesn't work with me, so what if its her "defining character trait?" so what if she beat them all? it all happened because of the plot remove the plot. how invincible is she now?

real world however says that if the person can be shot, they will die.

think of Squirrel Girl as Marvel's Belkar: normally in the DnD rules, Belkar would be sucky and die, but the story has other ideas in mind, remove story and Belkar dies easy.

now apply to Squirrel Girl: in the comic, she wins because she is supposed to, because she is the hero, because of the plot, the story.

in the real world? with no plot? no story? pull out gun. bang. Squirrel falls over dead. victory for me.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-06-30, 01:36 AM
Man I think you need to chill out, I don't think you know how it sounds when you talk about how you could kill X fictional character. :/

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:43 AM
Man I think you need to chill out, I don't think you know how it sounds when you talk about how you could kill X fictional character. :/

how does it sound then?

Selrahc
2009-06-30, 04:30 AM
Alex Mercer has a chance if he is up close and personal. He has an awful lot more physical strength than Samus, and in a grapple he could rip her to shreds.

However, in order to get close he has to weather a storm. He is seriously tough, so even Samus is not going to be one shotting him. He is also really fast, very mobile and can do teleport hops. Samus doesn't have the upper hand in mobility for once.

However, even considering that Samus would be able to kill him in an open area. He would certainly need cover to get in close. Without it he is certainly dead.

If he does have cover it could go either way. If there are people around as well for him to eat, then Alex probably has the edge.


Me: Hey Squirrel girl!

Squirrel Girl: what?

*bang*
*Squirrel Girl falls over dead*

Me: too easy.

You do know who Deadpool is yeah? Big burly dude, carries a lot of guns. He tried to do that, and he failed. That is despite being a lot better with guns than any actual human.

Squirrel Girl, aside from the plot armour, is a superhuman. She has "squirrel agility", and other squirrel based superpowers. Which means if you remove the plot armour (Something which ignores the premise of the character, but whatever) she would still be able to beat whatever you could reasonably do.

UltraDude
2009-06-30, 05:31 AM
how does it sound then?

Pretentious? Dull? Overly serious?

Oslecamo
2009-06-30, 05:36 AM
Squirrel Girl, aside from the plot armour, is a superhuman. She has "squirrel agility", and other squirrel based superpowers. Which means if you remove the plot armour (Something which ignores the premise of the character, but whatever) she would still be able to beat whatever you could reasonably do.

Don't forget her squirrel mob, wich easily manages to take down powered armor enemies like Doom, wich normally trades blows with the Silver surfer.

An army of squirrels is still an army!
(this is, if antman could do so much damage controling ants, imagine the potential of commanding an army of beings hundreds of times bigger and stronger than ants!:smalltongue:)


I also think people are severly understimating Samu's armor. She fights robots and monsters the size of skyscrappers, swims inside acid, gets hit head on by missiles, and even takes falling icebergs to the face and keeps fighting. She's that tough.

Also if she has full upgrades, then it means phazon form, and then she can only be hurt by phazon weaponry, but that's too cheesy.

Haarkla
2009-06-30, 06:17 AM
sometimes people carry memetic mutation too far and say that just because the character is badass, they beat them just because they are without good logic to back it up.


Yea but it seems kinda obnoxious that people would just assume that because "X is super-totally-freakin-awesomely-badass" they automatically win which also ain't fun either, ..

I'm not saying we should take the fun out of it- I'm just saying we should stop assuming that just because a character has a long history, is well liked and more popular, and has faced more enemies, "is more baddass" and such, that we automatically assume that person wins.
I agree. If you are not going to compare the strengths and weaknesses of each character against each other then its just silly, pointless and no fun.

I recon if you put up a HMS Victory v. HMS Invincible thread some people here would say the Victory would win as it has Nelson on board.


How does it sound then?
Logical. Rational. Sensible.

Comet
2009-06-30, 06:32 AM
Samus Aran may be a destroyer of worlds and totally awesome, I agree.
Mercer, however, is pretty badass himself. Shall I this up?

[spoiler]Towards the end of the game, Mercer (or rather, the Blacklight entity that has taken Mercer's form) becomes what is basically the Jesus of Bio-horrors.
He survives a nuclear blast and regenaretes from tiny bits of flesh scattered around a beach.
He's fast, strong and damn tough. He is by no means a human, but rather a force of nature.

So, with that out of the way, who would win?
I dunno, but I do know that the fight would be so very awesome.

Oslecamo
2009-06-30, 06:33 AM
Clearly this is a situation where Samus just sets up the ship's self destruct sequence and proceeds to escape before the explosion.

Jibar
2009-06-30, 06:40 AM
real world however says that if the person can be shot, they will die.

in the real world? with no plot? no story? pull out gun. bang. Squirrel falls over dead. victory for me.

In the real world people have giant fluffy prehensile tails and can command armies of squirrels?


And as for the actual thread, I'd say it would be close.
Samus has the firepower required to take on Mercer on an equal level, while Alex has the strength and endurance required to get close enough to Samus to start dealing up close damage. His blade and armour would let him go toe to toe, while the whipfist would make sure that Samus never can get him too far away.
It would ultimately come down to the manipulation of surroundings, use of levels and space and manipulation of the people on the station.

Also, for a fun idea, imagine what happens if Mercer wins and absorbs Samus? Mercer with all the memories and ability of Samus Aran. And the ability to take her form and thus her armour...

Edge
2009-06-30, 06:52 AM
I know very little about Samus (i.e. all I know about her comes from SSBB), but I have been playing Prototype for the past few days, and as such, I will endeavour to list "Alex's" abilities and weaknesses (assuming end-game capabilities).

Strengths
Physical Strength: Massive. He is capable of drop-kicking tanks, APCs and helicopters out of commission.

Mobility: Again, massive. His jumping distance is insane. His top speed is equally ridiculous - he is able to run several city blocks in under ten seconds, from a standing start, and he can run up and along vertical surfaces without slowing down. He can glide at relatively low speeds for short periods of time. Also, he takes no damage from falling - everything around him takes the damage instead. If interrupted mid-air by an attack, he can recover and quickly resume his movement with little to no impact on his speed or direction.

Durability: Alex can sit in the middle of a military base, doing nothing, whilst twenty or so soldiers (about five of whom will have rocket launchers), two tanks and three helicopters shoot at him, and he will not die for a good two minutes - and those tanks can one shot themselves and the helicopters. He has a regeneration factor, but it doesn't kick in until after a fight, and even then, it's very slow. He can also absorb other's biomass to heal himself.

Shapeshifting: Alex can take the shape of the last person he absorbed, and can mimic them to a truly uncanny degree - idiosyncracies will be nigh-on perfect. He also gains access to their memories.

Alex is also capable of forming a wide variety of organic weaponry.

The Lashwhip allows him to attack from range, cleave through large numbers of opponents, and drag foes in close, or himself closer to larger foes.

Increased Musclemass increases his strength massively, possibly doubling or trebling it (based on throwing distances).

The Claws allow for a large number of swift blows against a mass of close enemies.

The Hammerfists give excellent anti-armour capability, as well as an AoE shockwave with each hit, though the attack speed is slow.

Finally, the Blade slices through anything. It is as good against armour as the Hammerfist, but quicker. The Blade Drop attack, during which Alex jumps to maximum height before plummeting down and bisecting his target, one-shots any non-boss enemy in the game when fully charged.

In addition to his weaponry, Alex also has access to infrared vision, an organic shield which can absorb several tank shells before needing to regenerate, body armour that cuts down his mobility (as he can no longer glide or parkour flip over obstacles - he just runs through them instead, and reduces his top speed) but effectively doubles his lifespan. He can also quickly gain expertise with any vehicles or weapons by absorbing those skilled with them and taking their memories.

He can also use Devastator Attacks. These require a charge time of several seconds, but when used kill everything within a large radius around Alex. When he is about to die, he gets to use one of these for free.

I think that's everything. Again, I'm unfamiliar with Samus, but this should give those unfamiliar with Alex a better grasp of his capabilities.

Blayze
2009-06-30, 07:20 AM
However, in order to get close he has to weather a storm.

Whipfist. He can disguise himself as anyone, get in position and then get the drop on Samus that way.

Also, Alex's regeneration doesn't require consumption -- given the chance to avoid taking damage for a while, he will start regenerating health on his own.


Clearly this is a situation where Samus just sets up the ship's self destruct sequence and proceeds to escape before the explosion.

Given his nature, Alex would probably just ride the explosion out into space -- regenerating on the way -- land on the first object he could find and then work his way from planet to planet at (Black)light speed by jumping into space. :P

Selrahc
2009-06-30, 09:18 AM
Whipfist. He can disguise himself as anyone, get in position and then get the drop on Samus that way.

I'm not sure whipfist will be all that useful. It's good against helicopters because they hover above your jump range, but she is still going to get off a few shots as he drags her into melee. The teleport thing is faster.



Also, Alex's regeneration doesn't require consumption -- given the chance to avoid taking damage for a while, he will start regenerating health on his own.

Not fast enough though. And not to critical mass.

I do think this is a pretty good versus thread match up though. Both characters are very very powerful.. but are on the same plateau of power. I think Samus has a slight edge though because ranged will generally beat melee. But anyone who thinks that either will curbstomp the opposition is probably underestimating someone.

Prime32
2009-06-30, 09:38 AM
Not being familiar with Prototype, I'm curious if certain beings can resist being absorbed... and what kind of bosses he fights. Samus has encountered similar absorbophiles before, and Dark Samus somehow managed to survive being blasted to bits, then having the dimension she was in at the time collapsed (watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhLX0mxbTyw&fmt=18) to the end).

Blayze
2009-06-30, 09:44 AM
But anyone who thinks that either will curbstomp the opposition is probably underestimating someone.

Not technically true -- Alex has a Curbstop move, after all. :P

Oslecamo
2009-06-30, 09:47 AM
Given his nature, Alex would probably just ride the explosion out into space -- regenerating on the way -- land on the first object he could find and then work his way from planet to planet at (Black)light speed by jumping into space. :P

What if Samus shoots a couple missiles to point him to the nearest star/blachole after the explosion?

Plus I doubt he can keep regenerating forever in space. The conditions are very very harsh, and eventually he would consume himself trying to counter the damage from extreme temperatures and radiation on his living body.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-30, 09:51 AM
how does it sound then?

Like this: "STOP HAVING FUN, GUYS!"

Nevrmore
2009-06-30, 10:04 AM
I think some people don't actually know just how powerful Samus is. Samus probably would ignore a modern tank. If it shot her, she might be annoyed. Then she'd destroy it without much thought.
Alex will also be annoyed at getting shot by a modern tank, then would destroy it without much thought. Towards the end of the game he has several moves which will decimate the tank in only one hit.


Also, Alex can regen. Okay. Now, why does anyone think that Samus is going to let him do that?
Alex's regeneration, if we are talking about absorbing people, is pretty quick. If he gets his hands on somebody, it takes about half a second to kill them and steal their biomass to restore his power.


Also, look at Ridley. Dude's gotta be at least 60-70 feet tall. Samus takes hits from him and doesn't get torn up. She'll barely notice Alex.
Prototype spoilers:

The second boss in Prototype is literally hundreds of feet tall. It's mostly immobile, true, but it fires homing projectiles that are really ****ing annoying, it generates 12 to 20 foot tall monsters known as Hunters at an alarming rate to go and fight Alex, It has three tentacles with considerable range, and it has a super-move wherein it generates an expanding ring of energy that is extremely hard to avoid unless you are already above it and will knock off most of your health if hit.

Alex kills it.
Aside from that, he routinely deals with Hunters that completely dwarf a normal man, Hydras that are around 50 feet tall and throw nearby cars and busses at him, and the Supreme Hunter who is maybe 25 feet tall and can take half a dozen tanks and several dozen soldiers firing at him without breaking a sweat.

Alex kills all of these.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 12:29 PM
I agree. If you are not going to compare the strengths and weaknesses of each character against each other then its just silly, pointless and no fun.

I recon if you put up a HMS Victory v. HMS Invincible thread some people here would say the Victory would win as it has Nelson on board.


Logical. Rational. Sensible.

this is what I was aiming for.........

honestly I'm annoyed and tired with all these VS. threads that aren't actually VS. threads, they are just threads where people go "NO 1 is better than 2!"
and "No! 2 is better than 1!" and don't approach it from a fair unbiased objective standpoint rather than all this stupid meme-spawned be lief that "X IS AWESOME!!!!1!!!1111111!!"

KnightDisciple
2009-06-30, 12:47 PM
this is what I was aiming for.........

honestly I'm annoyed and tired with all these VS. threads that aren't actually VS. threads, they are just threads where people go "NO 1 is better than 2!"
and "No! 2 is better than 1!" and don't approach it from a fair unbiased objective standpoint rather than all this stupid meme-spawned be lief that "X IS AWESOME!!!!1!!!1111111!!"

Then either a.)don't read the threads, or b.)report them to a mod with why you think they shouldn't be allowed to continue.

Don't come into the thread and do the equivalent of running around waving your arms and shouting "STOP HAVING FUN GUYS!!!!"

I mean, it's not like you have to read every thread in existence on these boards, correct?

Myatar_Panwar
2009-06-30, 01:03 PM
Yeah alex doesnt have to sit down with a fork and knife to absorb these people. Rather, its just that. Absorbing.

As far as I know, he just has to kill a person to absorb them. Then their helpless bodies just kind flail around him while he absorbs them, still free to do other things (including more absorption) .

And I actually haven't played much of metroid, so I'll keep out of the conversation.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:05 PM
Then either a.)don't read the threads, or b.)report them to a mod with why you think they shouldn't be allowed to continue.

Don't come into the thread and do the equivalent of running around waving your arms and shouting "STOP HAVING FUN GUYS!!!!"

I mean, it's not like you have to read every thread in existence on these boards, correct?

no you don't understand to me, you ARE the stop having fun guys because you just say "NO! X is better!" while it may look like fun to you, to me who is just trying to imagine what a FAIR, un-exaggerated fight not based on Meme hype is fun and your ruining my fun because all you do is say: "NO!! THIS GUY BETTER!!!!"

Prime32
2009-06-30, 01:11 PM
no you don't understand to me, you ARE the stop having fun guys because you just say "NO! X is better!" while it may look like fun to you, to me who is just trying to imagine what a FAIR, un-exaggerated fight not based on Meme hype is fun and your ruining my fun because all you do is say: "NO!! THIS GUY BETTER!!!!"Well, "defeats high-level opponents, even if it doesn't make sense" is a major part of Squirrel Girl's character - if you take that away it's just not Squirrel Girl any more. Basically, she's a Reality Warper and it just isn't stated by anyone other than Deadpool.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-06-30, 01:13 PM
Trizap I haven't actually seen that much of what you are talking about in this thread. Most of the time its:

"X is better, and this is why"

And they give good reasons. You can take all of this together, compare, and decide for yourself.

Calm down, and stop ruining dudes fun.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-30, 01:13 PM
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/kyon_facepalm.jpg

And you're the one busting in here with stuff like "dur hurr, Batman and Superman should be dead!" and so on.

Several people have mentioned that this fight is, in their minds, a toss up due to displayed powers of each individual in question.

Also, I'd take you more seriously if you used proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:16 PM
Well, "defeats high-level opponents, even if it doesn't make sense" is a major part of Squirrel Girl's character - if you take that away it's just not Squirrel Girl any more.

so? I don't care, I want my fights to make as much sense as the universe around it, Squirrel Girl can go jump off a bridge for all I care.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-30, 01:18 PM
so? I don't care, I want my fights to make as much sense as the universe around it, Squirrel Girl can go jump off a bridge for all I care.

....Uh, SG being a subtle reality warper...does fit into the universe around it.

You might have missed how there's a dozen or so similar beings of varying power levels running around.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-06-30, 01:20 PM
I have to wonder why you think plot should be taken out of it.

Plot is what defines the character, shows what he/she can do. If in the game has the main character defeat an entire race of super baddies, it means that the character has the resources and ability to do those things.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 01:21 PM
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/kyon_facepalm.jpg

And you're the one busting in here with stuff like "dur hurr, Batman and Superman should be dead!" and so on.

Several people have mentioned that this fight is, in their minds, a toss up due to displayed powers of each individual in question.

Also, I'd take you more seriously if you used proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization.

ok that is it, I'm leaving the thread, I can't stand snobs who look down at people just because of proper grammar, people like you are stupid elitists who think "oh, I can capitalize my G and punctuate everything all correctly, I'm a good little Grammar police man yes I am, yes I am. hoohohohohohoho....."

seriously, if you so narrow-minded as to judge people by their grammar, we have nothing to say to each other, no arguments nothing, it just tells me that you aren't worth talking to. goodbye.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-06-30, 01:26 PM
Okay buddy stay in touch

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 01:37 PM
Right then.

Back to the fights.

I'd give the edge to Aran, seeing as we're going with end game arsenal, due to the screw attack as much as anything. Samus could constantly be a whirling flying orb of death, and pretty much immune to projectiles like the whipfist. Mercer's tough, but by end game Samus can take pretty much anything and shrug it off. Add in airtight suit capable of taking a reasonable amount of hits for everyone, meaning Mercer will take a few bullets every time he consumes someone, and we have things steadily shifting to Samus's favor. As even modern weapons can hurt Mercer, the sheer amount of future weapons flying about should mean Mercer eventually drops.

Of course, an oddity of these things is parasitic entities tend to mimic Samus obsessively as soon as they get her DNA in the systems, so either way the person walking out will probably look like a hot power armored blonde.

Mando Knight
2009-06-30, 01:51 PM
2: Samus has full acess to all of her upgrades, and Alex is at similar power levels to what you obtain near the end of the game.

This is a problem. Samus's full upgrade set includes:

Defenses:-Resistance or immunity to parasitic infestation through both Power Suit shields and Metroid DNA
-Immunity to environmental heat and cold, including magma, and to some acids
-Chozo DNA grants resilience to toxins
-Shield unit capable of withstanding multiple attacks from the devastating Hyper Beam
-Hypermode grants immunity to most sources of damage
-Power Suit has a self-contained breathing apparatus, allowing Samus to remain underwater or in a vacuum (apparently) indefinitely
Mobility:-Gravity Suit allows Samus to move through magma and water as if they were standard atmosphere
-Chozo DNA and training grant super-human agility and athletic capability
-Space Jump allows for infinite mid-air jumps and tactical mobility. Can be used to dodge a great deal of attacks
-Speed Booster grants greater run speed and jump-charges that ignore gravity
-Can easily pass through tunnels approximately 1 meter in diameter
Combat:-Ice Beam causes freezing in weakened opponents, damages stronger ones. Instantly freezes opponents vulnerable to cold
-Plasma Beam incinerates weakened targets, severely damages stronger ones. Pierces armor.
-Nova Beam pierces Phazite armor, increases damage dealt by Plasma Beam. Can OHKO when combined with the X-Ray visor and weak points.
-Annihilator Beam causes localized matter/anti-matter explosions. Pierces armor.
-Phazon Hyper Beam significantly harms phazon-based life forms, incinerates targets
-Hyper Beam destroys all, and is capable of bypassing the Super Metroid's weapon-proof membrane

-Standard missile capacity: 255. Capable of firing up to five missiles simultaneously. Kills most light infantry, pierces armor, has Ice Beam's freezing properties
-Super Missile capacity: 50. 5 times as powerful as standard missiles, and fly faster
-Phazon Hyper Missile: uses standard missiles, flies too fast to have tactical homing systems. Effect is similar to Phazon Hyper Beam.

-Bombs are infinite use energy mines
-Power bomb capacity: 74. Large-area detonation exceeding 20 meter radius. Samus is immune. Deals damage greater than a Super Missile.
-Phazon Hyper Ball causes constant energy dispersal to nearby opponents. Similar effects to Phazon Hyper Beam.

-Screw Attack charges Samus's Space Jump, instantly destroying enemies that can be killed by Super Missiles. Pierces armor to a greater degree than any weapon other than the Beams. Grants invulnerability to energy weapons while active.
Other:-Scan Visor allows near-instant data transmission and analysis
-Thermal Visor allows thermal imaging, negating some forms of optical camouflage
-X-Ray Visor allows for X-Ray imaging, negating optical and thermal camouflage, as well as allowing "normal" X-Ray vision. Can detect spectral beings. Can detect the true Dark Samus when confronted with excess doppelgangers
-Echo Visor allows for ultrasonic imaging, negating all optical camouflage.
-Power Suit capable of hacking into Pirate networks near-instantly, negating security systems with ease
-Power Suit capable of acquiring and repurposing a wide variety of equipment, similar to the "Mega Manning" principle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MegaManning).

Selrahc
2009-06-30, 01:56 PM
I'd give the edge to Aran, seeing as we're going with end game arsenal, due to the screw attack as much as anything. Samus could constantly be a whirling flying orb of death, and pretty much immune to projectiles like the whipfist.

Whipfist isn't really a projectile, its more like a more aggressive version of the grappling beam.
Also if Samus is busy screw attacking then she won't be shooting Alex with her deadly deadly guns.


Add in airtight suit capable of taking a reasonable amount of hits for everyone, meaning Mercer will take a few bullets every time he consumes someone, and we have things steadily shifting to Samus's favor.

Why will he take a few bullets whenever he consumes someone? I don't quite get what you mean...


Of course, an oddity of these things is parasitic entities tend to mimic Samus obsessively as soon as they get her DNA in the systems, so either way the person walking out will probably look like a hot power armored blonde.

Frankly I think the virus would get a lot deadlier if it chose as its base form someone other than Alex Mercer. Hes just some random scientist dude...


Oh, something else then. Samus has ice beams, so if Alex counts as a non boss enemy, then he'll end up frozen in place. Employ the old Metroid on e two of ice beam followed by a super missile and Alex Mercer is feeling a lot less chipper.

However, he might well be able to just keep on trucking after being hit by the beam.... I mean he is certainly of a similar threat level to the metroid bosses, and the shapeshifting could help him out. Ugh. I don't know.

EDIT: Lack of memory from not having played a metroid game in years. Yeah! Mercer would be frozen if he was weakened, damaged if he was strong. THat suits me. :smallredface:

Zeful
2009-06-30, 02:43 PM
This is a problem. Samus's full upgrade set includes:

Fun thing about context, while he stated, all of Samus' upgrades (three of which give her total invulnerability), the next sentence allows us to interpret it as Endgame statistics, which gives us two choices. Pick one game, 100% completion and argue that. OR, Last game in continuity statistics (Fusion is chronologically the last game) 100% completion.

Samus with everything from every game wins. 20 energy tanks per game for Zero mission, Prime 1, 2, and 3, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion (I'm not sure about Return of Samus and it's number of energy tanks.) means that with nothing else Mercer will run out of edible biomass and disguises long before he's capable of compromising the suit (at a staggering 120 energy tanks). And with the number of missiles, powerbombs, beams, and visors at her disposal, make finding and killing Mercer a trivial matter.

Shadowbane
2009-06-30, 02:49 PM
ok that is it, I'm leaving the thread, I can't stand snobs who look down at people just because of proper grammar, people like you are stupid elitists who think "oh, I can capitalize my G and punctuate everything all correctly, I'm a good little Grammar police man yes I am, yes I am. hoohohohohohoho....."

seriously, if you so narrow-minded as to judge people by their grammar, we have nothing to say to each other, no arguments nothing, it just tells me that you aren't worth talking to. goodbye.

Bye! <3 Miss you?

My money is on Samus, for the reasons stated by others in this thread.

Prime32
2009-06-30, 02:58 PM
Fun thing about context, while he stated, all of Samus' upgrades (three of which give her total invulnerability), the next sentence allows us to interpret it as Endgame statistics, which gives us two choices. Pick one game, 100% completion and argue that. OR, Last game in continuity statistics (Fusion is chronologically the last game) 100% completion.
Fusion... Samus receives an upgrade during the final battle which is difficult to judge in power - it could have given her every upgrade from Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion combined, or it could have just given her the Ice Beam.


Also if Samus is busy screw attacking then she won't be shooting Alex with her deadly deadly guns.
Well, there's the whole "disintegrates anything it touches (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Screw_Attack)" thing... Similarly, Samus has the Shine Spark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zJgEn68oYE&fmt=18). :smalltongue:

Would Mercer be considered a "dark element" enemy? In that case, the equipment from Metroid Prime 2 would grant Samus a number of advantages against him.

Dihan
2009-06-30, 03:12 PM
If Samus Aran has any weapon at her disposal then a Darkburst beam combo could do the trick - it does create miniature black holes. Its light counterpart - Sunburst - incinerates anything in the vicinity. Though the two blasts are quite slow. There's also Sonic Boom - this creates a rift in space. It's so fast that it instantly hits the target once fired.

She can also use the X-Ray Visor and the Nova Beam to instantly kill anything by targeting its weak point. The Nova Beam also a really fast beam that instantly hits the target.

The screw attack makes Samus indestructible, very mobile and it instantly kills the majority of things that touch it.

The only thing Alex can really beat her in is physical strength.

Zeful
2009-06-30, 03:14 PM
Fusion... Samus receives an upgrade during the final battle which is difficult to judge in power - it could have given her every upgrade from Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion combined, or it could have just given her the Ice Beam.

Since you have no new capabilities beside the Ice Beam and a full recharge (no new energy tanks, no extra bomb/missile capacity, nothing), it's unlikely that absorbing that SA-X was anything more than just the Ice Beam and a full recharge.

Mando Knight
2009-06-30, 03:55 PM
Since you have no new capabilities beside the Ice Beam and a full recharge (no new energy tanks, no extra bomb/missile capacity, nothing), it's unlikely that absorbing that SA-X was anything more than just the Ice Beam and a full recharge.

And significant damage reduction. The Omega Metroid takes Samus out pretty easily when she's in the Gravity Suit, but the Omega Suit causes the 'troid to only deal 100 damage per blow.

Haarkla
2009-06-30, 04:27 PM
Like Trizap, I prefer my fights to be based on the laws of nature, not the laws of Tvtropes/plot/cool.

Sensibly considering the capabilities of each combatant, rather than just saying X wins because he is awesomer, is fun.


a FAIR, un-exaggerated fight not based on Meme hype is fun

I want my fights to make as much sense as the universe around it,
I agree.


I have to wonder why you think plot should be taken out of it.

Plot is what defines the character, shows what he/she can do. If in the game has the main character defeat an entire race of super baddies, it means that the character has the resources and ability to do those things.
Not neccessarily. While you've got to take past form into account, if a character defeats an entire race of super baddies due to luck, hype or bad writing that doesn't mean they are going to do so again.

Prime32
2009-06-30, 04:33 PM
Not neccessarily. While you've got to take past form into account, if a character defeats an entire race of super baddies due to luck, hype or bad writing that doesn't mean they are going to do so again.If they consistently defeat enemies due to luck, then the character "has extraordinary luck" and it should be taken into account. I'm not sure what you mean about defeating enemies through hype.

KnightDisciple
2009-06-30, 04:37 PM
Like Trizap, I prefer my fights to be based on the laws of nature, not the laws of Tvtropes/plot/cool.

*Raises eyebrow*

I'm curious to see how either of these individuals conforms to the "laws of nature"

I've not played Prototype, but the main character apparently keeps absorbing mass, without ever showing increased mass himself.

And in Metroid, we have a character who goes from being, what, 6' tall and weighing at least 300 lbs, to being the size of a basketball?

I'm not saying it should be a contest of "zomg Samus is totally cooler!", but saying "conform to laws of nature" tends to rule most characters out from the get go.

Jibar
2009-06-30, 04:38 PM
Like Trizap, I prefer my fights to be based on the laws of nature, not the laws of Tvtropes/plot/cool.

Sensibly considering the capabilities of each combatant, rather than just saying X wins because he is awesomer, is fun.

But... the laws of nature don't apply to Marvel or DC or video games. You're assigning conditions to characters that would stop them functioning entirely. Sure, you could shoot Squirrel Girl in our world, but in our world she wouldn't have any amazing super powers or special abilities. She'd just be an ordinary girl. That you're shooting.

If you're going to compare characters, then you have to do it in their respective universes and thus accepts rules of plot/cool/whatever, which still allows you to have informed and weighted discussions on the topic. This thread has managed to take an objective and well thought out view on the battle at hand, even when one character was explicitly made to be invincible and all powerful.

You and Trizap don't seem to accept any of this for some reason.

Zeful
2009-06-30, 04:47 PM
Like Trizap, I prefer my fights to be based on the laws of nature, not the laws of Tvtropes/plot/cool.

Sensibly considering the capabilities of each combatant, rather than just saying X wins because he is awesomer, is fun.


I agree.


Not neccessarily. While you've got to take past form into account, if a character defeats an entire race of super baddies due to luck, hype or bad writing that doesn't mean they are going to do so again.

Seriously considering the capabilities of each combatant is what we're doing. Arbitrarily restricting their capabilities according to the laws of our universe means Samus can't lose, and Mercer can't exist. Samus' tech is thousands upon thousands of years more advanced then human technology to get a near perfect 1-to-1 mass-to-energy ratio that the Power Suit alone represents. Mercer has no energy based attack, gains hundreds of pounds of mass per person eaten, but never increases in weight or density, which violates the laws of Thermodynamics. Therefore he vanishes in a puff of logic according to your restrictions.

Haarkla
2009-06-30, 04:52 PM
I am meaning the laws of nature in the characters respective universe, what they are shown to be physically capable of.

Anteros
2009-06-30, 04:55 PM
But... the laws of nature don't apply to Marvel or DC or video games. You're assigning conditions to characters that would stop them functioning entirely. Sure, you could shoot Squirrel Girl in our world, but in our world she wouldn't have any amazing super powers or special abilities. She'd just be an ordinary girl. That you're shooting.

If you're going to compare characters, then you have to do it in their respective universes and thus accepts rules of plot/cool/whatever, which still allows you to have informed and weighted discussions on the topic. This thread has managed to take an objective and well thought out view on the battle at hand, even when one character was explicitly made to be invincible and all powerful.

You and Trizap don't seem to accept any of this for some reason.

It's funny, because as someone who knows little about either character, I didn't find this thread objective, or well thought out at all. Three pages of "Samus would win because she is the destroyer of worlds!" or "Samus is invincible despite the fact that she dies all the fugging time inside of her own game!" is hardly "well thought out" or "objective."

No one is trying to apply the rules of our universe to anything. They are trying to apply the laws of the universes in which these characters live. The only reason characters like Squirrel Girl and Batman are invincible is due to the power of the plot. Not due to some sort of hidden super-power.

When arguing a versus thread, the general agreement is to ignore plot-based powers entirely. However, people fail to do this because they want "their character" to win. Generally because they think he/she is so much "cooler."

Samus can die quite easily in her video game. Sometimes to fairly mundane means. Calling her invincible is hardly reasonable. I'm not even familiar with the other character at all, and I have no idea who would win this...but some of these arguments are completely ridiculous.

Zeful
2009-06-30, 05:02 PM
Except it's hard to separate plot-based powers from non-plot based powers. Doubly so in the DC/Marvel universe.

Also, Samus doesn't have any plot based powers. So it's a non-issue.

UltraDude
2009-06-30, 05:03 PM
I'd say at least a good third of the posts - especially past the early parts of the first page, after a lot of info started getting posted - were certainly taking these things into account.

And Squirrel Girl does have crazy powers. Batman on the other hand...

Mando Knight
2009-06-30, 07:35 PM
Also, Samus doesn't have any plot based powers. So it's a non-issue.

Well, there's the Metroid DNA in her blood, the Hyper Beam that she got from the Super Metroid to go Mama Bear on Mother Brain, the self-generating Phazon in her bloodstream in MP3...

Fan
2009-06-30, 07:47 PM
Well, I think the same problem that applies to Link in Versus threads applies here.
Samus simply has too many games to draw from, and unless you limit her to 1 single game, people are going to include every single bonus she ever gets ever, making statistics insanely unfair.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-06-30, 07:48 PM
Alex's increased mass is evident in that just about everything he lands on/touches looks as if something much heavier hit it. Like a large truck.



Not neccessarily. While you've got to take past form into account, if a character defeats an entire race of super baddies due to luck, hype or bad writing that doesn't mean they are going to do so again.

How does hype even belong with those other two? I don't follow.

Your right about luck.

We are discussing fictional characters, who depend on writing to exist. Bad or not, it still defines their existence, doesn't it? I don't think you can exclude certain bits of information just because you don't think it follows the rest of the story. It happened.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-30, 08:24 PM
...Mechwarrior 3 Atlas Versus Samus Aran.

Your little laser will blacken the paint, and your supermissle is equal to what, a LRM? Flamethrower? Flamer. It'd be excellent, at the range of 1,200 meters, the Big A points a Large Pulse Laser and crisps the little human. Victory over the invunerable bounty hunter! :smallbiggrin:

(Other options include a mass of S-SRMs, PPCs, Machine Guns (I mean, if the autogun is big enough to hurt a 18m mech with ]tons of supah-steel, it must have some serious caliber), moar lasers, even moar lasers, autocannons LB-X and Ultra versions, LRMs, Arrow IVs, Gauss Rifles, so on. It's a matter of scale, not tech. When the bore of my gun is bigger than your body, you die.)

(And not only this, 'mechs don't run on the Rule of Cool! ...except the mysterious coolant bar. But we try not to talk about that.)

(I figured this thread needed some Samus-loss. )

:smalltongue:

More on topic... I never played Prototype. No clue. :smallsigh:

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 08:30 PM
...Mechwarrior 3 Atlas Versus Samus Aran.

Your little laser will blacken the paint, and your supermissle is equal to what, a LRM? Flamethrower? Flamer. It'd be excellent, at the range of 1,200 meters, the Big A points a Large Pulse Laser and crisps the little human. Victory over the invunerable bounty hunter! :smallbiggrin:

(Other options include a mass of S-SRMs, PPCs, Machine Guns (I mean, if the autogun is big enough to hurt a 18m mech with ]tons of supah-steel, it must have some serious caliber), moar lasers, even moar lasers, autocannons LB-X and Ultra versions, LRMs, Arrow IVs, Gauss Rifles, so on. It's a matter of scale, not tech. When the bore of my gun is bigger than your body, you die.)

(And not only this, 'mechs don't run on the Rule of Cool! ...except the mysterious coolant bar. But we try not to talk about that.)

(I figured this thread needed some Samus-loss. )

:smalltongue:

More on topic... I never played Prototype. No clue. :smallsigh:

Samus has fought giant robots before.

Often, even.

She tends to hold her own.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-30, 09:00 PM
Well, thing is - The game ended at a point where mercer was not fully evolved yet.

In truth, story-wise, he could never 'stop' growing, gaining biomass, and memorys of others. In effect, he could spend a year doing nothing but asorbing everyone around him. Hundreds, thousands, millions of people... all in the body of one man who can manipulate his mass so he does not 'sink' to the center of the earth. He would gain the minds of all he consumes, making him the most intelligent creature in the universe.

And with all that mass at his disposal, imagine the fury of a million humans, well over two hundred million pounds of force, a punch. Not only that - his flesh would become as dense and durable as 1 million+ humans. His bones would be indestructible, he could pick up a tank with one hand and use it like a baseball bat...

How can you possibly beat something that has no possible end to its evolution, and will only grow stronger, faster, and smarter every passing second? All the mini nukes, frost missiles, and x-ray visors in the world will not save you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5Oy1LEdGW4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHkTURK6neY&feature=fvw

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 09:14 PM
Well, thing is - The game ended at a point where mercer was not fully evolved yet.

In truth, story-wise, he could never 'stop' growing, gaining biomass, and memorys of others. In effect, he could spend a year doing nothing but asorbing everyone around him. Hundreds, thousands, millions of people... all in the body of one man who can manipulate his mass so he does not 'sink' to the center of the earth. He would gain the minds of all he consumes, making him the most intelligent creature in the universe.

And with all that mass at his disposal, imagine the fury of a million humans, well over two hundred million pounds of force, a punch. Not only that - his flesh would become as dense and durable as 1 million+ humans. His bones would be indestructible, he could pick up a tank with one hand and use it like a baseball bat...

How can you possibly beat something that has no possible end to its evolution, and will only grow stronger, faster, and smarter every passing second? All the mini nukes, frost missiles, and x-ray visors in the world will not save you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5Oy1LEdGW4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHkTURK6neY&feature=fvw

Perpetually evolving imitative parasite?

X Parasites. Another victim of Samus's many, many genocidal rampages.

Also, the first post says Mercer's only at end game power levels. If we go on hypothetical future power, there's no telling how the Metroid DNA in Samus will grow. Considering the Omega Metroid...

Mando Knight
2009-06-30, 09:34 PM
Samus has fought giant robots before.

Including a giant robot lizard that can shoot spectral hands.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-30, 09:34 PM
Samus has fought giant robots before.

Often, even.

She tends to hold her own.

But all combat happens at about 250-500m for Samus, the Atlas will roast her alive before she can... I was going to say see it, but it's hard to miss a 100 ton skull-headed robot that's stomping toward you at 50 km/h, even at 1km distance.

Plus, PPC's are lightning guns, and a bolt of lightning is (technically) hotter than the surface of the sun. And they can stack on 2-3 of these things along with a pile of missle racks (That are bigger than her body, stuffed with explosives and tracking sensors, these things can make a 180* turn, and are fired in salvo's of 20 every 5 seconds. The Streak missles can just turn faster.) and lasers (Pulse, ER, and otherwise). You can do as much devestation to a city in a few minutes, that would put it on footing to a nuclear warhead (Which it's reactor technically is, given an overheat and override. And before you try to say Samus would snipe/demo/Supahblast it, the thing is in the middle, making you have to cut through more than two meters of armour. With a little blaster that would do less than a (Mech's) small laser.)

Aside from blowing up the planet instead of fighting, there's no reasonable way to kill it. And even if she can kill one these things aren't incredibly rare, just expensive and uncommon for use due to that tag. Or you could have a lance (4ish) of light mechs that do 100 km/h and are armed with equally massive weapons, albiet less dakka, in support of it.

...and stepping on her is a amusing thought as well.

::I think we're going to need a Mechwarrior versus Samus thread. :smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 09:43 PM
But all combat happens at about 250-500m for Samus, the Atlas will roast her alive before she can... I was going to say see it, but it's hard to miss a 100 ton skull-headed robot that's stomping toward you at 50 km/h, even at 1km distance.

Plus, PPC's are lightning guns, and a bolt of lightning is (technically) hotter than the surface of the sun. And they can stack on 2-3 of these things along with a pile of missle racks (That are bigger than her body, stuffed with explosives and tracking sensors, these things can make a 180* turn, and are fired in salvo's of 20 every 5 seconds. The Streak missles can just turn faster.) and lasers (Pulse, ER, and otherwise). You can do as much devestation to a city in a few minutes, that would put it on footing to a nuclear warhead (Which it's reactor technically is, given an overheat and override. And before you try to say Samus would snipe/demo/Supahblast it, the thing is in the middle, making you have to cut through more than two meters of armour. With a little blaster that would do less than a (Mech's) small laser.)

Aside from blowing up the planet instead of fighting, there's no reasonable way to kill it. And even if she can kill one these things aren't incredibly rare, just expensive and uncommon for use due to that tag. Or you could have a lance (4ish) of light mechs that do 100 km/h and are armed with equally massive weapons, albiet less dakka, in support of it.

...and stepping on her is a amusing thought as well.

Oddly, I'd figure the best tactic here would be the most insane and up close and personal one. Those things have joints, weak bits in the plating, etc, yes?

Well, given Samus's frequent blinding speed, and small profile in morphball mode, the best idea might be to close the gap as fast as possible (Screw attack and Shine Sprite help here. When those are going, the user is pretty much invulnerable), morph ball, spiderball up to said joints, and drop some powerbombs on them. Should cripple the thing, allowing for cockpit entrance, finishing of the pilot, and stealing of the best gun from the thing in a power suit portable form.

13_CBS
2009-06-30, 09:49 PM
Eh, Morph Ball mode into close range, climb up into the cockpit, blast away.

Blayze
2009-06-30, 10:02 PM
I think we're all missing the real point of the matter here -- Squirrel Girl vs Rincewind.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-30, 10:09 PM
The joints are relatively weak, compared to the meters of battleplate on the rest, they can still take dozens of missles before even malfunctioning... And how would weakening the actutators allow a cockpit enterance? It's still 18 meters straight up... I wonder if the screw attack/morph ball would register as a projectile, because that just brings the Anti-missle systems into it.

Just an idea of what your looking at...

http://mechwarrior.mytopix.com/img/a/atlas-0.jpg


And you have to get to short range even if that would work, active sensors out to 500m. Zoom is optical 6x :smalltongue:

...Stealing a PPC would be slightly odd, considering it's a system that wieghs 7 tons and the end bore is larger than a human torso. On the other hand, I don't think Samus would ever lose after that. :smallbiggrin:

And although this would be moving away from my original thought, some 'mechs have jump jets letting them get ~50m into the air for ten seconds.

I'm not saying that it'd be impossible for Samus to take one of these things (Just, very very difficult not to get instantly zapped...), but for a mechwarrior it's not even a boss, just another opponent amoungst dozens on the field.

******

No! Batman versus Squirrel Girl!

::Yup, we should either get an MW vs S thread, or maybe we could save time and make this a general Samus vs (?) Thread. :smallbiggrin:

13_CBS
2009-06-30, 10:16 PM
The joints are relatively weak, compared to the meters of battleplate on the rest, they can still take dozens of missles before even malfunctioning... And how would weakening the actutators allow a cockpit enterance? It's still 18 meters straight up... I wonder if the screw attack/morph ball would register as a projectile, because that just brings the Anti-missle systems into it.


You don't have to attack the joints (though you could if you wanted to). As I said, just climb up to the cockpit and blast at leisure.

AFAIK, Mechs don't have point defenses (which was why the Clanners tried using Elementals, IIRC), and if it's just a lone Atlas that has no other support units, then Samus can simply get close enough so that the Atlas can't shoot her (aka literally right on top of it) and shoot away until the armor gives away. May take a while, but she's got forever to do it.




Just an idea of what your looking at...


Oh, I know what it looks like. I've played Mechwarrior before, you know. :smalltongue:



And you have to get to short range even if that would work, active sensors out to 500m. Zoom is optical 6x :smalltongue:


AFAIK Mechs don't have weapons designed to deal with something as small and as fast as a morph ball.



...Stealing a PPC would be slightly odd, considering it's a system that wieghs 7 tons and the end bore is larger than a human torso. On the other hand, I don't think Samus would ever lose after that. :smallbiggrin:


Why would she steal a PPC? :smallconfused:



And although this would be moving away from my original thought, some 'mechs have jump jets letting them get ~50m into the air for ten seconds.

Then you simply wait until they come back down.



The Atlas seems to be at a disadvantage here, actually--from what I've been told, Samus regularly takes on Mech-sized bosses, while Atlases rarely, if ever, have to shoot anything larger than, say, a tank. Or an Elemental.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 10:18 PM
I think we're all missing the real point of the matter here -- Squirrel Girl vs Rincewind.

Squirrel Girl doesn't fight other good guys. Rhincewind just runs. They wouldn't fight.

Doreen being shocked at his lack of heroism, though, and chastising him for trying to run, though, that I can see happening.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-30, 10:27 PM
You don't have to attack the joints (though you could if you wanted to). As I said, just climb up to the cockpit and blast at leisure.

AFAIK, Mechs don't have point defenses (which was why the Clanners tried using Elementals, IIRC), and if it's just a lone Atlas that has no other support units, then Samus can simply get close enough so that the Atlas can't shoot her (aka literally right on top of it) and shoot away until the armor gives away. May take a while, but she's got forever to do it.




Oh, I know what it looks like. I've played Mechwarrior before, you know. :smalltongue:



AFAIK Mechs don't have weapons designed to deal with something as small and as fast as a morph ball.



Why would she steal a PPC? :smallconfused:




Then you simply wait until they come back down.



The Atlas seems to be at a disadvantage here, actually--from what I've been told, Samus regularly takes on Mech-sized bosses, while Atlases rarely, if ever, have to shoot anything larger than, say, a tank. Or an Elemental.

Gyroget Rifle? No, the pilot would obviously get toasted in combat against her. Ah, well. :smallwink:

But we can give it support, because 'mechs are seriously common. That's the thing about these versus threads, it's always these epic characters facing off, when giant mook-bots are matches for them and can come in numbers.

Everyone else might not have. ...And I like that picture. :smalltongue:

I was generally thinking even a near miss with an LRM would toast her, an MW3 Pulse laser would be easy as you just drag it across where she's moving and SSRM could track her like an Elemental.

...because the big Particle Projectors are my favorite, and the guy was talking about Samus stealing weapons from it? >.>

And if it shoots her from the sky? :smallbiggrin: It'd probably miss.

That's true. Actually, I figure an Atlas probably wouldn't even bother shooting Elementals or light tanks, just let the support mop them up. I only used the A-bot because I wanted to go big, a Timber Wolf would probably be more suited for Samus hunting with dual PPC's, 4 small pulse lasers, a brace of LRM 20's, a top speed of 75 km/h, and jump jets. The best mech available, for pure utility.

Blayze
2009-07-01, 07:24 AM
Squirrel Girl doesn't fight other good guys. Rhincewind just runs. They wouldn't fight.

Doreen being shocked at his lack of heroism, though, and chastising him for trying to run, though, that I can see happening.

This is Superhero!Land, everyone's capable of fighting anyone else even if they were friends moments before, based on the flimsiest Fridge Logic -- and the need to sell more crossover comics.

Rincewind would just end up getting himself involved in massive disaster after massive disaster that somehow causes said Fridge Logic to apply.

There, the stage is set. :P

Kopaka
2009-07-01, 08:03 AM
*unobtrusively walks in*
um...
Hey.
I'm not saying I totally agree with Trizap or anything, but this has kinda turned into "Samus is invicible" people vs. Samus bashers vs. Prototype fans vs. the random Marvel crowd that shows up everywhere. Not trying to piss people off, but a bit of self-examination please?
...
Anyway, I think that Alex would run around the ship absorbing people and using hit-and-run tactics to weaken Samus/use up her missiles until he won. But in a straight out fight, Samus would have a good (possibly better) chance of winning.
*(hopefully) unobtrusively ducks out*

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 10:23 AM
That's true. Actually, I figure an Atlas probably wouldn't even bother shooting Elementals or light tanks, just let the support mop them up. I only used the A-bot because I wanted to go big, a Timber Wolf would probably be more suited for Samus hunting with dual PPC's, 4 small pulse lasers, a brace of LRM 20's, a top speed of 75 km/h, and jump jets. The best mech available, for pure utility.

You know, Samus only bother using her hand held weapons when fighting in an enclosed space. In open ground, she just calls her gunship with enough artillery to bring down fortresses. Unless your mechs have some serious AA capacities, it's going down.

Plus you're completely ignoring the fact that the main purpose of the morph ball is to allow Samus to move underground undetected to avoid usual ground defenses trough ventilation and sewage systems.

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 10:43 AM
You know, Samus only bother using her hand held weapons when fighting in an enclosed space. In open ground, she just calls her gunship with enough artillery to bring down fortresses. Unless your mechs have some serious AA capacities, it's going down.

Plus you're completely ignoring the fact that the main purpose of the morph ball is to allow Samus to move underground undetected to avoid usual ground defenses trough air and sewage systems.

They have the ability to aim up. :smallbiggrin:

So your going to win a fight, by ignoring it altogether? :smallconfused:

Mando Knight
2009-07-01, 11:45 AM
They have the ability to aim up. :smallbiggrin:

So your going to win a fight, by ignoring it altogether? :smallconfused:

No, but by pointing out that Samus doesn't fight anywhere where she can't get the advantage. Could Metal Gear REX or RAY kill off Solid Snake if he encountered them at 1000 meters? Yes. Do they ever get the chance to? No. Same with Samus. She doesn't let herself get caught in a massive open-air battlefield. If she had to fight a mecha, she'd do so by sneaking into its hangar and taking it out in there.

On the durability of 'Mech armor vs. Samus's weaponry: Samus's Plasma/Wave beam in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion allows her weaponry to travel through walls and even pierce her own Power Suit's armor. Her Ice Beam could probably freeze any exposed mechanisms. A missile in the joints could knock them off balance momentarily.

If there's one thing that Samus is good at, it's killing things and taking their stuff. If there is a weak point on the 'mech, she can target it. With her Scan Visor, she'll be able to analyze those weak points within seconds while dodging attacks (or at least trying to). If the 'mech pilot wastes any time when trying to fight her, he's already lost. If he just blows up her location with everything he's got as soon as he sees her, he'll get chastised by his CO for wasting so much ammunition... but it's the only way to be sure that he kills her.

Anyway, I think that Alex would run around the ship absorbing people and using hit-and-run tactics to weaken Samus/use up her missiles until he won. But in a straight out fight, Samus would have a good (possibly better) chance of winning.
*(hopefully) unobtrusively ducks out*
She's got her full payload. I think the ship would run out of people before Samus runs out of weapons with which to kill Alex. She'll Missile-Spam for the first dozen encounters, break open the numerous crates lying around every GF ship to recharge, and keep tracking him down. If he doesn't run, he's probably going to stand up to at least her entire Super Missile payload, then fight her on an even level while she uses normal missiles, then if he dodges all/most of them, it'll go down to beam-spam versus whatever Alex has that doesn't require ammunition.

They'll probably both run around the ship trying to kill each other, conveniently find experimental weaponry that just happens to be able to harm the other significantly, and then it'll be a showdown where the better player wins. :smalltongue:

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 12:22 PM
No, but by pointing out that Samus doesn't fight anywhere where she can't get the advantage. Could Metal Gear REX or RAY kill off Solid Snake if he encountered them at 1000 meters? Yes. Do they ever get the chance to? No. Same with Samus. She doesn't let herself get caught in a massive open-air battlefield. If she had to fight a mecha, she'd do so by sneaking into its hangar and taking it out in there.

On the durability of 'Mech armor vs. Samus's weaponry: Samus's Plasma/Wave beam in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion allows her weaponry to travel through walls and even pierce her own Power Suit's armor. Her Ice Beam could probably freeze any exposed mechanisms. A missile in the joints could knock them off balance momentarily.

If there's one thing that Samus is good at, it's killing things and taking their stuff. If there is a weak point on the 'mech, she can target it. With her Scan Visor, she'll be able to analyze those weak points within seconds while dodging attacks (or at least trying to). If the 'mech pilot wastes any time when trying to fight her, he's already lost. If he just blows up her location with everything he's got as soon as he sees her, he'll get chastised by his CO for wasting so much ammunition... but it's the only way to be sure that he kills her.



But once again it's just an evasion of the entire point of the battle. Sure, if she snuck into the hanger, the mech is just going to sit there, because the pilot most likely isn't in it. And without the giant warmachine the pilot is just your average Joe. (Unless it's a clanner, but even then, no chance.) Likewise if we place her sitting in the barrel of an LB-X 20 autocannon (...giant shotgun) there's no hope for the bounty hunter.

A missle, that's about 6" (by the look of the graphics/the fact it shoots out of her arm-cannon) is going to take a machine (We'll stick with the Atlas, as that was the original one I brought up) that weighs 100 tons off balance?

Yeah, the weak point is the cockpit, everything else is just a inconvience to the pilot. Oh, leg acutators, now I can't stomp around as fast. And the major weapon systems -are- the limbs, which aren't going to be taken off easily. Thus why these massive machines take 5 minutes to murder each other, even with dozens of oversized particle cannons, lasers, 300-gauge autocannons, and missles.

Supplies are pretty much unlimited when dealing with ammo, it's only the 'mech/dropships that people care about.

Samus' only real advantage against 'mechs is that they don't normally engage things so small, as personal firearms can be entirely ignored, and they normally just walk past infantry. (Some get taken down by infantry teams, but that's 1/1,000,000 and in bad conditions.)

KnightDisciple
2009-07-01, 12:30 PM
Um....Samus has taken things the size of, or nearly so, Battlemechs in the past.

She's packing multiple kinds of high-powered energy weapons, including something similar in operation to a PPC. Her weapons are show to be quite powerful, damaging said large foes.

As well, it's been shown that Elementals (only marginally larger than Samus, if any) carry lasers capable of damaging Battlmechs. Considering that everything we see in the games indicates a higher overall level of technology, I'd say the same projection can hold true now.

As well, it doesn't matter if the missiles are 6" long; it's not the size, it's the yeild. And her missiles have a notable yield. At least as much as modern man-portable missiles, which are also much bigger. Her Super Missiles, even more so.

And again, she could just Morph/Spider ball up to the leg joints, lay a couple of bombs, and bam, mech fall down.

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 12:30 PM
They have the ability to aim up. :smallbiggrin:


We're talkcing about a gunship able to travel trough the stars and atmospheres of planets at top speed while surviving specialized antiship guns. You simply cannot hit one of those with aiming systems designed to aim at ground targets, specially when the gunship is using evasive maneuvers.



So your going to win a fight, by ignoring it altogether? :smallconfused:

More thinking of planting one of Samus super bombs on the mech's path to make it fall/get out of balance as a huge hole appears under it, then Samus jumps off from underground and blasts the cockpit to pieces as the pilot struggles to get back up. Ah, giant robots, so easily defeated by terrain...

Samus really isn't the most honorable oponent. She will never face the huge mech face to face if she can evade it, and she's got the tools to evade the fight untill the conditions are right.

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 01:04 PM
Um....Samus has taken things the size of, or nearly so, Battlemechs in the past.

Yeah. But they lacked any real means of firepower, instead of being effeciently stocked with dozens of massive energy cannons.



She's packing multiple kinds of high-powered energy weapons, including something similar in operation to a PPC. Her weapons are show to be quite powerful, damaging said large foes.


They're also shown (going by Metroid Prime, as it's the only one I've played aside from the original) to 'hurt' things her own size, taking a number of shots to kill them. ...And it's still a matter of scale. Her's might be powered by the infinite phlebtonium of her Powersuit, but the BM's is about x6 the size, and powered by a fusion reactor bigger than a tank.



As well, it's been shown that Elementals (only marginally larger than Samus, if any) carry lasers capable of damaging Battlmechs. Considering that everything we see in the games indicates a higher overall level of technology, I'd say the same projection can hold true now.


They do minor damage at best (Excluding the ones from Ghost Bear's Legacy where they carry nuclear warheads to try and blow up your carrier), and are considered a lance equivelant to a mech lance (3-4) at the 10 - 20 range, though the commanders don't consider 5 elementals equal to a mech.



As well, it doesn't matter if the missiles are 6" long; it's not the size, it's the yeild. And her missiles have a notable yield. At least as much as modern man-portable missiles, which are also much bigger. Her Super Missiles, even more so.


But our modern missles would stratch the paint, even if we consider them equal to a single mech missle, which they obviously wouldn't be.



And again, she could just Morph/Spider ball up to the leg joints, lay a couple of bombs, and bam, mech fall down.

The Spider Ball seems to need those 'tracks' in order to climb, and unless the mech was built specifically for her to defeat, those rails wouldn't be conviently there for her to climb.



We're talkcing about a gunship able to travel trough the stars and atmospheres of planets at top speed while surviving specialized antiship guns. You simply cannot hit one of those with aiming systems designed to aim at ground targets, specially when the gunship is using evasive maneuvers.


The aiming systems are designed to let the human interface in order to aim at whatever he points the guns at, not ground targets. The mech itself is built for ground-to-ground, but that's just because it's more convient to let fighters deal with fighters. They can point up both by adjusting thier arms and torso pitch, without any difficulty, it's just not what they specifically designed for. And 'specialized antiship' guns couldn't be much better than a 36" Gauss Rifle slug that can rip limbs off medium mechs. (50 - 65 tons)



More thinking of planting one of Samus super bombs on the mech's path to make it fall/get out of balance as a huge hole appears under it, then Samus jumps off from underground and blasts the cockpit to pieces as the pilot struggles to get back up. Ah, giant robots, so easily defeated by terrain...


Once again, jump jets. A hole in the ground is easily solved by boosting over/out of it. And even if it does fall over, your gun doesn't magically gain 100x power because the enemy is knocked down, it's still going to take the same amount of time to shoot through the armoured cockpit as it would if the thing was still standing, which is longer than the 6s it would take to stand back up.

These things are built by humanity, which means heavy armour and weapons everywhere, especially on the head, given our tendancy to go for headshots in firearms.

Indon
2009-07-01, 01:06 PM
Welp, people have mentioned the screw attack, space jump, and shine spark, which was what I was going to bring up.


now apply to Squirrel Girl: in the comic, she wins because she is supposed to, because she is the hero, because of the plot, the story.

in the real world? with no plot? no story? pull out gun. bang. Squirrel falls over dead. victory for me.

That wouldn't be a fair fight, though - an infinite supply of deus ex machina is Squirrel Girl's major superpower (which, in practice, essentially puts her at reality manipulation levels of power). The whole squirrel-talky thing's just gravy.


Prototype spoilers:
You just about described Kraid there, another boss in Super Metroid.


...Mechwarrior 3 Atlas Versus Samus Aran.

She's essentially a slightly better-armed*, immensely more maneuverable** Elemental. If she can make it to the mech's 'square', and considering her speed she stands a good chance of not being hit doing so, she can scale the mech - without even needing to touch it if need be, meaning ablative anti-power armor measures wouldn't work - and break into the cockpit and throw the pilot out.

Oslecamo mentions Samus has a spaceship, but I think we can safely assume that it's already been shot down, damaging her suit in the process, and that she's gone on a long journey to reactivate the damaged features of her suit by the time she faces anyone on the ground in combat. :P

*-IMO, her Super Missiles are about equivalent to SRM's, and she has power bombs and a couple other tricks besides.
**-As in, moving at the speed of a light mech with the Speed Booster while being smaller and more maneuverable than power armor, with the ability to fly at plane speeds for short periods of time using the shine spark.

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 01:22 PM
Once again, jump jets. A hole in the ground is easily solved by boosting over/out of it. And even if it does fall over, your gun doesn't magically gain 100x power because the enemy is knocked down, it's still going to take the same amount of time to shoot through the armoured cockpit as it would if the thing was still standing, which is longer than the 6s it would take to stand back up.

These things are built by humanity, which means heavy armour and weapons everywhere, especially on the head, given our tendancy to go for headshots in firearms.

I have bad news for you. It gets really really expensive to put full armor in all parts of your vehicle, so designers cut on the costs by puting the heavy armor in parts it's more likely to get hit, and cuting the armor in the places it's not likely to hit.

Anyway, if it has jump jets, then it's sounding more and more like a boss battle. Distract mech for a second, unleash a salvo of energy blasts/missiles (wich can hurt things that live inside tons of magma, mind you), quickly move into hiding underground again before mech pilot understands WTF just hapened, rinse and repeat.

Your main mistake so far is judging Samus weapons by their size. Samus isn't your average future armored trooper. She's an armored trooper with the finest technology of a very ancient race, and her technology is light years ahead of anything the mechwarrior world has. She uses her weapons to cut her way trough mountains and kill stuff that everybody else on her galaxy couldn't even scratch.

If Samus was feeling really evil, she could also bring a metroid and laugh her ass off as it drains the mech out of energy, but that would be too cruel.

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 01:30 PM
I have bad news for you. It gets really really expensive to put full armor in all parts of your vehicle, so designers cut on the costs by puting the heavy armor in parts it's more likely to get hit, and cuting the armor in the places it's not likely to hit.

Anyway, if it has jump jets, then it's sounding more and more like a boss battle. Distract mech for a second, unleash a salvo of energy blasts/missiles (wich can hurt things that live inside tons of magma, mind you), quickly move into hiding underground again before mech pilot understands WTF just hapened, rinse and repeat.

Your main mistake so far is judging Samus weapons by their size. Samus isn't your average future armored trooper. She's an armored trooper with the finest technology of a very ancient race, and her technology is light years ahead of anything the mechwarrior world has. She uses her weapons to cut her way trough mountains and kill stuff that everybody else on her galaxy couldn't even scratch.

If Samus was feeling really evil, she could also bring a metroid and laugh her ass off as it drains the mech out of energy, but that would be too cruel.

...so, now you've just decided that because a planned design is a bad idea, that they cut costs? Because Mech's don't shoot each other in the head. At all. :smallconfused:

A boss battle, with mook this Atlas is 1/100 others stomping somewhere planetside.

...Mech weapons are shown to crater the ground, destroy mountains, cities and anything else that gets in the way.

... :smallsigh: I'm tired of this, I suppose I went and forgot that Samus is everyone's favorite bounty hunter that's > than anything in exsistance, in any reality. No point in me trying any further with this, bye.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-01, 01:54 PM
Yeah. But they lacked any real means of firepower, instead of being effeciently stocked with dozens of massive energy cannons.
...This sentence, it makes no sense.:smallconfused:


They're also shown (going by Metroid Prime, as it's the only one I've played aside from the original) to 'hurt' things her own size, taking a number of shots to kill them. ...And it's still a matter of scale. Her's might be powered by the infinite phlebtonium of her Powersuit, but the BM's is about x6 the size, and powered by a fusion reactor bigger than a tank.
Of course, she and many of her foes wear armor that obviously is of highly advanced design, as well as possessing varying levels of out and out shields. Something that Battletech, right off the dot, doesn't have.
Also, saying that that fusion reactor is automatically more powerful, just because it's bigger....yeah, no.
I'm not saying that, for sure, Samus has a higher power output. I just think it's silly to judge this based on size of power generation method alone.


They do minor damage at best (Excluding the ones from Ghost Bear's Legacy where they carry nuclear warheads to try and blow up your carrier), and are considered a lance equivelant to a mech lance (3-4) at the 10 - 20 range, though the commanders don't consider 5 elementals equal to a mech.
I've read many Battletech novels. In them, the Small Laser that an Elemental carries (and that's exactly what it's classified as) is able to really mess up armor at close range. One book had one or two Elemetnals get on a mech's back, and his armor quickly dropped from green status to yellow, and was starting to lean towards red, before they were burned off. Samus' basic weapon seems to do more damage than what's described of small lasers in BT.


But our modern missles would stratch the paint, even if we consider them equal to a single mech missle, which they obviously wouldn't be.
Would they? And BT missiles only "scratch the paint" (read: put a relatively small dent in the armor) on big mechs; on lighter mechs, an LRM-5 volley can hurt it.
The problem here is that we don't know the exact yield of BT missiles, versus our own. We know they've got to be smaller, because mechs can store more than 1 refill of the things.


The Spider Ball seems to need those 'tracks' in order to climb, and unless the mech was built specifically for her to defeat, those rails wouldn't be conviently there for her to climb.
This might well be a mechanic-fluff dissonance. I don't know if there are Metroid novels or some such where she has the Spider Ball. It may well be that, fluff-wise, she can climb most anywhere with it, and you're limited in-game to special tracks. I'm not sure.


The aiming systems are designed to let the human interface in order to aim at whatever he points the guns at, not ground targets. The mech itself is built for ground-to-ground, but that's just because it's more convient to let fighters deal with fighters. They can point up both by adjusting thier arms and torso pitch, without any difficulty, it's just not what they specifically designed for. And 'specialized antiship' guns couldn't be much better than a 36" Gauss Rifle slug that can rip limbs off medium mechs. (50 - 65 tons)
There are mechs that are noted to specifically be designed for anti-air work; the Rifleman is a prime example. The fact of the matter is, I don't recall any non-specialized Mechs hitting fighters, except with a lucky shot. It's certainly not a regular occurance.


Once again, jump jets. A hole in the ground is easily solved by boosting over/out of it. And even if it does fall over, your gun doesn't magically gain 100x power because the enemy is knocked down, it's still going to take the same amount of time to shoot through the armoured cockpit as it would if the thing was still standing, which is longer than the 6s it would take to stand back up.
First, the Atlas doesn't have JJ. Second, the mech wouldn't have time to activate them anyways, as this is a scenario of "suddenly a hole right as they step" (which is hardly unfeasible). Thus, the mech wouldn't be able to JJ out, and it might well "twist an ankle". Third, if it's down and less mobile, it's easier to get in close and go for disable/kill shots. Point blank means there's less energy bleed off in travel, be it from energy diffraction or projectiles losing velocity due to gravity and wind resistance.


These things are built by humanity, which means heavy armour and weapons everywhere, especially on the head, given our tendancy to go for headshots in firearms.
And yet, headshots remain a viable tactic in BT. They're hard, but they happen, and they mess stuff up (read: kill pilots). On heavier mechs it might take more than one shot, though.


...so, now you've just decided that because a planned design is a bad idea, that they cut costs? Because Mech's don't shoot each other in the head. At all. :smallconfused:
...Are you using sarcasm to say that they do get shot in the head?


A boss battle, with mook this Atlas is 1/100 others stomping somewhere planetside.
I'm...not sure where you're going with this.


...Mech weapons are shown to crater the ground,
Yeah, along with enemies, sure.


destroy mountains,
...Wait, what? :smallconfused:


cities and anything else that gets in the way.
No, they don't.:smallannoyed:
I've never, ever, ever seen Mech-borne weapons do more than be able to wreck, say, one building at a time. They do not carry city-destroying firepower. No, not even if they blow their reactor; that's more of a "destroy a city block" level blast.


... :smallsigh: I'm tired of this, I suppose I went and forgot that Samus is everyone's favorite bounty hunter that's > than anything in exsistance, in any reality. No point in me trying any further with this, bye.
Considering the wild claims you're making about Battletech Mechs (claims which have no basis in fact from any cartoon, movie, game, or book), I think you have little to no room to talk.

Prime32
2009-07-01, 02:59 PM
The Spider Ball seems to need those 'tracks' in order to climb, and unless the mech was built specifically for her to defeat, those rails wouldn't be conviently there for her to climb.Only in the Prime series. Even there, the Spider Ball was originally going to work on everything until the designers realised how unfeasible that was in 3D.

Besides, Samus's enemies obviously don't design their mechs to have tracks on them - whatever materials they use just happen to be compatible.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDVCUoEGpc&fmt=18) is a video of Samus fighting a demon-possessed mecha (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Quadraxis) in a dimension where the air is made out of acid.


...We need three more threads for all the OT stuff here. :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2009-07-01, 02:59 PM
A missle, that's about 6" (by the look of the graphics/the fact it shoots out of her arm-cannon) is going to take a machine (We'll stick with the Atlas, as that was the original one I brought up) that weighs 100 tons off balance?

Not in and of itself. If she targets the joints (the weakest part of any leg) with the missiles, she can disable the legs, effectively defeating their main method of keeping balance. It's like if someone kicked at the back of your knees: the blow might not be powerful enough to knock you down on its own, but the fact that your knees will likely buckle against the attack means that you can easily lose your balance. I agree that there is no way her missiles could directly topple a 'mech, excepting some kind of absurd moment gained by firing at an absurdly long, relatively massless rod sticking off the top of the 'mech.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDVCUoEGpc&fmt=18) is a video of Samus fighting a demon-possessed mecha in a dimension where the air is made out of acid.
It's not made out of acid... it's made out of death. :smalltongue:
It actually hurts Samus about as fast as magma or Fuel Gel when she's only got the Varia Suit.

Jane_Smith
2009-07-01, 03:29 PM
-gets out 'beating stick', and points it to thread name- Back on track or ill knock you back on! Rawr, keep your squirrel girl and mechas to another thread! :smallwink: