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gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:19 PM
4e Modern Homebrew

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6765222#post6765222

I have continued this thread in a totally different thread


Designers Notes

This is an attempt to modify 4e rules to allow for modern settings.
-4e is a very combat focused game. Balance between melee weapon-using, missile weapon-using and non-weapon classes would be heavily impacted by the introduction of firearms to the 4e world. We need to redesign character classes, weapons and armor to make this work.

-Modern campaigns will require many new skills or uses of skills than 4e. For science fiction settings, we also have to discuss the issue of skill obsolescence across technology levels and culture. We need to know whether or not a high-tech engineer marooned in a low tech environment performs on skill checks with low tech equipment..

-The roles will be Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller with some changes. Every class will have some facility with firearms. Firearms often form a significant of combat in modern settings and every class should have class features that will allow the class to participate in some way.

-Controllers will often depend on arcane or psionic power sources. In some settings without arcane, psionic or other fantastic power sources, controllers will be unavailable.

-Science fiction settings vary greatly. Some campaigns may only wish to introduce selected equipment from the rule set and this will have balance impact. Where possible we include guidance that will allow players to customize their campaigns and be prepared for changes to balance.

-Weapons and armor will be grouped into progress levels. After the introduction of firearms, missile weapons will be considerably more effective. Campaigns may wish to introduce technology selectively however doing so will have impact on balance. For example, introducing energy weapons into a campaign without introducing energy-proof armor would favor characters that use energy weapons. Campaign designers should consider balance between missile weapon-using and non missile weapon-using characters and between armor using and non-armor using characters when introducing equipment into a campaign.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:20 PM
Suggested Settings

Campaigns can be set to include various combinations of technology and magic.

The ‘They Among Us’ Campaign

This setting resembles the present day except that several unpredictable alien species are present on earth and coexist with humanity. Governments and alien organizations conspire to conceal the truth from the public.
Technology is similar to the present day however small amounts of superior alien technology are available. Several alien organizations are involved in genetically altering humans and other species.On occasion, aliens have recreated creatures from their home planet as pets, guards, works of art or religious icons. Psionic abilities are infrequently found in aliens and humans associated with or descended from alien experimentation.

Most alien species arrived on earth after WWI. However, smaller amounts of alien visitation occurred prior to WWI. A large number of mythological creatures are based on aliens that visted earth at some point in Earth’s history.

Characters work for an alien, government or independent organization that is aware of the real truth. It may be defending human interests, promoting human/alien co-existence, maintaining the conspiracy or working for an alien faction or serve its own interests.

The ‘Bullets and Bugbears’’ Campaign

This is an alternate history setting where magic and fantastic creatures have always coexisted with our modern society. While humans are widespread fantastic creatures operate in the open and may control corporations or whole cities. Significant portions of the globe remain in wilderness as a result of interregional and interspecies conflict. Many non-human races have a vested interest in restrcting urbanization and have built cultures that rely more on natural and magical resources. While nations resemble those in our earth, they are often dotted with independent cities or regions.

Development is centered around major cities.In those cities, corporations can be extremely influential. Large corporations are powerful enough to maintain private security forces and some degree of immunity from local law enforcement. A large informal economy operates alongside the corporate world. Corporate warfare, regional conflicts, espionage activities and crime are common.

Characters can be freelance adventurers or operatives aligned to one of the many financial, mystical or governmental powers than rule the planet.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:22 PM
Changes to Character Creation Rules

Several changes to character creation are necessary to update 4e to modern settings.

Professions
Characters may select a profession as well as a class and a race. A profession reflects the character’s profession prior to an adventuring career and modifies the character’s choice of skills. Professional paragon classes are available to characters of a specific profession or who possess many of the trained skills associated with the profession. Professions can include scientists, academics, law enforcement, criminals, businessmen, politicians, entertainers, athletes, blue collar workers, vehicle operators, socialites and military.

Special Technology Feats

Special technology feats may introduce daily, encounter and at will powers that characters can use in addition to their class powers.

Modified Races

Humans are unchanged from the PHB and are present in both worlds. Fantasy creatures are also unchanged and are present in the "Bullets and Bugbears" world.

Enhanced are genetically enhanced human beings. Originally created by aliens as servants, many have escaped and made their own way in the world.

Greys are a common alien race in the ‘They Among Us’. They have a variety of motivations and can be found in both human and alien organizations. Grey’s have the psionic ability to alter their appearance. It is unclear whether they or not they are a naturally occurring species or the result of experimentation.

Modified Classes

The following classes are introduced:
Muscle (Martial Defender)- Completed Levels 1 to 10
Daredevil (Martial Defender)
Gunfighter (Martial Striker)
Martial Artist (Martial Striker)
Thinker (Martial Leader)
Talker (Martial Leader)
Empath (Psionic Leader)
Geomancer (Arcane Leader)
Mentalist (Psionic Controller)
Occultist (Arcane Controller)

gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:33 PM
4th July updated to reduce feat flexibility. You still have to take some defensive/speed type feats with feats that substitute for amor or shield proficiency. More flexible feat system allows muscle to be used in settings where armor is unavailable(Wild Wild West genre) as well as when it is prevalent (Certain futuristic genres)

------------------
Class: Muscle (Levels 1-10)
Role: Defender, you are very tough, contain your enemies in melee and put your enemies under pressure in missile combat.
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Wisdom
Hp at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
Armor Proficiencies:Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
Class Features: Bonus Feats I, Bonus Feats II, Bonus Feats III, Melee Combat Challenge, Melee Combat Superiority, Ranged Challenge
Skills: To be completed when skills and professions section is completed.

Bonus Feats I
Pick 2 from the following list, pre-requisites apply; Armor Proficiency (Leather), Armor Proficiency (Hide), Armor Proficiency (Chainmail), Armor Proficiency (Scalemail), Armor Proficiency (Platemail), Armor Proficiency (Power Armor)*, Armor Proficiency (Energy Fields)*, Armor Proficiency (Modern Armor)*, Alertness, Durable, Toughness, Defensive Mobility, Escape Artist, Fast Runner, Keep Close*, Brawling*, Martial Arts*, Judo*, Streetfighting*, Quick Draw

Bonus Feats II
Pick 3 from the following list, pre-requisites apply; Armor Proficiency (Leather), Armor Proficiency (Hide), Armor Proficiency (Chainmail), Armor Proficiency (Scalemail), Armor Proficiency (Platemail), Armor Proficiency (Power Armor)*, Armor Proficiency (Energy Fields)*, Armor Proficiency (Modern Armor)*, Alertness, Durable, Toughness, Defensive Mobility, Escape Artist, Fast Runner, Keep Close*, Brawling*, Martial Arts*, Judo*, Streetfighting*, Quick Draw, Snap Shot*, Martial Melee Mastery*, Martial Ranged Mastery*, Firearms*, Well-practised shooter*, Heavy Weapons*, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Double Tap*, Burst Fire*, Far Shot*, Far Throw, Sniper Training*, Hi-tech Melee*

Bonus Feats III
Pick 2 from the following list, pre-requisites do not apply; Shield Proficiency (Light), Shield Proficiency (Heavy), Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Defense, Escape Artist, Fast Runner, Keep Close*, Brawling*, MartialArts*, Judo*, Streetfighting*,
* These are new feats

Melee Combat Challenge
Same as Fighter Combat Challenge class feature, but applies only to unarmed or melee weapon attacks.

Combat Superiority
Same as Fighter Combat Superiority class feature, but you add only half of your Wisdom bonus to your attack roll for opportunity attacks.

Ranged Challenge
When you make a ranged attack with a ranged weapon or a firearm you may mark the target. The target has a -2 to hit penalty to attack rolls when he makes a ranged attack that does not include you as a target. If you use the Double Tap feat, you may mark one additional target within 2 squares of the first. If you use the Burst Fire feat, you may mark one additional target within 3 squares of the first.

Suggested Build: SWAT Officer (To be completed)
Profession: Law Enforcement
Feats: Armor Proficiency(Leather Armor), Armor Proficiency(Modern Armor),
Shield Proficiency (Light), Shield Proficiency (Heavy) Firearms, Burst Fire, Sniper Training
At Will: Combat Rush, Wild Attack
Encounter: Pinning Fire
Daily: Comeback Surge

Suggested Build: Streetfighter (To be completed)
Profession: Criminal
Feats: Armor Proficiency(Leather), Quick Draw, Streetfighting
,Keep Close, Two Weapon Fighting, Firearms, Double Tap
At Will: The Old One Two, Wild Attack
Encounter: Passing Attack
Daily: Villain’s Menace

Suggested Build: Savage (To be completed)
Profession: Primitive
Feats: Keep Close, Two-weapon Fighting, Martial Melee Mastery, Martial Ranged Mastery, Firearms, Durable, Alertness
At Will: Big Swing, Wild Attack
Encounter: Trip Up
Daily: Brutal Offensive

gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:39 PM
Muscle powers
Your powers are called exploits.

Level 1 At Will Exploits
Big Swing
Same as Reaping Strike Fighter Level 1 At Will Exploit (PHB) except that you may add your full strength bonus to damage when using a Two-Handed Weapon or a Variable Weapon with both hands.

The Old One Two
'If I swing twice, one will hit''
At Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee Weapon.
Requirement: You must be wielding at least one off-hand melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (off hand weapon only), two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Special: If you are wielding two-off hand weapons, you may make one attack with each weapon.

Sure Attack
'Accuracy matters''
At Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee, Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 vs AC (melee) or Dexterity +2 vs AC (ranged or modern ranged)
Hit: 1[W] damage
Increase damage to 2 [W] at 21st level.

Wild Attack
'Spray it don't just say it'
At Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength-1 vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage and an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your Strength modifier (melee) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage and an enemy adjacent to your target takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier (ranged and modern ranged).
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Special: If you are using the Burst Fire feat, you may select an enemy within 2 squares of the target instead of an enemy adjacent to the target to take damage equal to your Dexterity modifier

Combat Rush
'I don’t have time to bleed’'
At Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged and modern ranged)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage and you gain your Constitution bonus in temporary hit points (melee) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage and you gain 2 temporary hit points (ranged and modern ranged)
Increase damage to 2 [W] at 21st level.
Effect: If you attack a target in melee with this exploit, the target you attacked has a +1 bonus to hit you until the end of its net turn

Footwork Lure
Same as Footwork Lure Fighter Level 1 At Will Exploit (Martial Power)

gnownek
2009-06-30, 02:52 PM
Level 1 Encounter Exploits
Passing Attack
Same as Passing Attack, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB).

Low Blow
Same as Steel Serpent Strike, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB) except that the power gains the Scalable keyword. If you take this power as a Level 13 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 3[W] and if you take this power as a Level 23 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 4[W].

Trip Up
Same as Spinning Sweep, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB) except that the power gains the Scalable keywords. If you take this power as a Level 13 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 2[W]. If you take this power as a Level 23 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 3[W]

Pinning Fire
'You go on the offense, pinning down your enemies'
Encounter, Martial, Weapon, Scalable
Standard Action, Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Special: If you take this power as a Level 13 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 3[W]. If you take this power as a Level 23 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 4[W]


Covering Fire
'I'll cover you'
Encounter, Martial, Weapon, Scalable
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged and modern ranged)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage and an ally adjacent to the target can shift 1 squares (melee) or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage and one of your allies you can see can shift 1 square (ranged and modern ranged).
Special: If you take this power as a Level 13 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 3[W] and the ally may move 2 squares if you made a melee attack. If you take this power as a Level 23 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 4[W] and the ally may move 2 squares if you make a melee or missile attack.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:10 PM
Level 1 Daily
Villain's Menace
Same as Villain's Menace, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB).

Comeback Surge
'A successful attack invigorates you'
Daily, Healing, Martial, Weapon, Reliable, Scalable
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged and modern ranged)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage and you can spend a healing surge (melee) or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage and you can spend a healing surge (ranged and modern ranged)
Special: If you take this power as a Level 9 Daily Exploit damage increases to 3[W]. If you take this power as a Level 19 Daily Exploit damage increases to 4[W]. If you take this power as a Level 25 Daily Exploit damage increases to 5[W]. If you take this power as a Level 29 Daily Exploit damage increases to 6[W].

Brutal Offensive
'You go for the throat''
Daily, Martial, Weapon, Reliable, Scalable
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged and modern ranged)
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee) or 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged and modern ranged)
Special: If you take this power as a Level 9 Daily Exploit damage increases to 4[W]. If you take this power as a Level 19 Daily Exploit damage increases to 5[W]. If you take this power as a Level 25 Daily Exploit damage increases to 6[W]. If you take this power as a Level 29 Daily Exploit damage increases to 7[W].

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:15 PM
Level 2 Utility
Unstoppable
Same as Unstoppable, Fighter Level 1 Utility Exploit (PHB).

Get Over Here
Same as Get Over Here, Fighter Level 1 Utility Exploit (PHB).

No Opening
Same as No Opening, Fighter Level 1 Utility Exploit (PHB).

Weapon Grab
'After taking someone down you take his weapon''
Encounter, Martial
Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Trigger: An attack by you or an ally renders an adjacent opponent unconscious
Effect: You may drop one or more weapons or items you are currently wielding. You may also grab a weapon from the unconscious opponent's hand or an easily accessible location on his person and ready it for use.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:17 PM
Level 3 Encounter
Crushing Blow
Same as Crushing Blow, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB).

Dance of Steel
Same as Dance of Steel, Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB).

Rain of Blows
Same as Rain of Blows , Fighter Level 1 Encounter Exploit (PHB).

Precision Offensive
Daily, Martial, Weapon, Reliable, Scalable
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength+4 vs AC (melee) or Dexterity+4 vs AC (ranged and modern ranged)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged and modern ranged)
Special: If you take this power as a Level 13 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 2[W]. If you take this power as a Level 23 Encounter Exploit damage increases to 3[W]

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:19 PM
Level 5 Daily
Dizzying Blow
Same as Dizzying Blow, Fighter Level 5 Daily Exploit (PHB) except that the power gains the Scalable keyword. If you take this power as a Level 15 Daily Exploit damage increases to 4[W]. If you take this power as a Level 25 Daily Exploit damage increases to 5[W] and you attack using Strength+1 versus AC. If you take this power as a Level 29 Daily Exploit damage increases to 6[W] and you attack using Strength+1 versus AC.

Rain Of Steel
Same as Rain Of Steel, Fighter Level 5 Daily Exploit (PHB).

Bleeding Wound
'Laugh this off'
Daily, Martial, Reliable, Weapon, Scalable
Standard Action Melee Weapon, Ranged or Modern Ranged Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC (melee) or Dexterity vs AC (ranged or modern ranged)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee)or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or modern ranged), and the target takes ongoing 5 damage and a -2 penalty to AC (save ends both).
Special: If you take this power as a Level 15 Daily Exploit damage increases to 3[W]. If you take this power as a Level 19 Daily Exploit damage increases to 4[W]. If you take this power as a Level 25 Daily Exploit damage increases to 5[W]. If you take this power as a Level 29 Daily Exploit damage increases to 6[W].

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:20 PM
Level 6 Utility
Battle Awareness
Same as Battle Awareness, Fighter Level 6 Utility Exploit (PHB).

Defensive Training
Same as Defensive Training, Fighter Level 6 Utility Exploit (PHB).

Unbreakable
Same as Unbreakable, Fighter Level 6 Utility Exploit (PHB).

Level 7 Encounter
Sudden Surge
Same as Sudden Surge, Fighter Level 7 Encounter Exploit (PHB)

Reckless Strike
Same as Reckless Strike, Fighter Level 7 Encounter (PHB)

gnownek
2009-06-30, 03:21 PM
Level 9 Daily
Shift the Battlefield
Same as Shift The Battlefield, Fighter Level 9 Daily Exploit (PHB)

Jackal Strike
Same as Jackal Strike, Fighter Level 9 Daily Exploit (Martial power)

vicente408
2009-06-30, 07:40 PM
I think that I would prefer something closer to the more "generic" classes from D20 modern. There would be a limited number of base classes, maybe just one or two for each "role," and more specific character types and powers achievable through Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. Say, a striker role could be filled by a Melee Striker class and a Ranged Striker class, each with a wider variety of powers than a normal D&D class.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 08:14 PM
I liked the 4e generic hero system too but the role and powers for each class in 4e don't mix well with total flexibility. There'll be some flexibility in choosing profession, class, a multi-class and a paragon class. You could easily be a academic by profession, muscle by class, thinker by multiclass and explorer by paragon class. Going with my gut here but the modern system had 3 combat focused classes and 3 skill focused classes which seems inconsistent with 4e where everyone has a combat role.

----------------------------------

Changes to Combat Rules
Introduction
The 4e Modern combat rules are designed to capture cinematic modern combat, like that of a TV show or a movie. Modern cinematic combat has a different ‘look and feel’ than fantasy combat it also differs from realistic modern combat. Combat under these rules have the following characteristics:

-Firearms are superior ranged weapons
-Ranged combat is more deadly, a bullet can do more damage than a two-handed weapon
-Big two-handed weapons are used less often, especially in the presence of firearms
-Unarmed combat and smaller melee weapons do get used when opponents are very close, probably more often than in realistic combat.
-Pistols are slightly more accurate than in realistic combat, where rifles are far deadlier and more accurate
-In some futuristic campaigns, superior melee weapons may be very effective.

Most of the changes made to the rules for modern firearms have been made in the feats section or the weapons section. Statistics for some existing weapons have been changed. Archaic armor and some missile weapons have been weakened.

New Keywords
Modern Ranged Weapon
Firearms and energy weapons are not considered to be ranged weapons by powers that have the ranged weapon keyword. The Modern Ranged weapon keyword indicates the power can be used with a firearm or energy weapon.

Scalable
The power is available in higher level versions. You must retrain to get the benefit of the higher level version, the power does not automatically update itself to the improved version when you reach the appropriate level. You may have more than one version of this power, but they cannot be the same version. You could have a level 9 Encounter version of this power and the level 1 Encounter version.

Shevarash's_Son
2009-06-30, 08:25 PM
couldnt a controller be an insane bomb maker the whole idea of controller is area attacks and inducing effects

CDR_Doom
2009-06-30, 08:50 PM
It's also possible to set up a no-magic modern setting without losing any of the roles, you just have to tweak it a bit.

How about this:
2 different leader styles- one leads from the rear, he has more abilities that can tactically affect the party (think like a general), one leads from the front and has more combat abilities but less tactical control on the party(like a medic or squad leader).
2 different strikers- a sniper style striker that specializes in dealing precise damage to single targets, and a Rambo style striker (big machine gun) that deals massive damage but is inaccurate.
2 different defenders- a close defender who is more heavily armored and deals higher damage, but at a shorter range (think shotgun) and one who deals lighter damage (think smg) with less armor but who has abilities that help him find better cover
2 different controllers- a damage-only controller who has abilities to call in artillery or air strikes and one who has abilities to lay traps and control the battlefield (maybe has a grenade launcher, can use smoke & chemical weapon grenades to affect the enemy)

Obviously this is just a rough outline, but I think it could be worked in a way that was balanced for all the classes.

gnownek
2009-06-30, 09:05 PM
The rules are meant to be flexible in what tech period, a bomb using martial controller is very tech level dependent so I decided to leave that one. Bear with me here.

On classes,many ways to do this, glad to hear any ideas. I'm going to keep doing a few basic classes which are flexible on type of weapon up as a start - to test the basic rules.

I don't want to go to specialized in case of setting changes. What does the machine gunner or sniper do in a Buffy campaign where machine guns and sniper rifles aren't part of the genre? A few guns here and there might fit not the high-firepower.

CDR_Doom
2009-06-30, 10:09 PM
I don't want to go to specialized in case of setting changes. What does the machine gunner or sniper do in a Buffy campaign where machine guns and sniper rifles aren't part of the genre? A few guns here and there might fit not the high-firepower.

right, I see what you mean. My stuff there was more focused toward filling those roles in a current-modern setting with no magic, not as a broad spectrum for any "modern" setting. I didn't make that super-clear. Although, that seems like a hard bill to fit as each setting needs it's own unique balance for each role depending on it's tech levels and magic availabilities.
Maybe:
leader options: party affecting leader, battle/healing leader
striker options: ranged striker, close striker
defender options: ranged defender, close defender
controller options: damage focus controller, status focused controller and then base controller abilities on science instead of magic, or add as much magic as the setting allows.
this way "ranged" and "close" are variable with the setting, and you can adjust your controller to fit snugly into whatever tech/magic level is available (after all, a chemist from today would appear to be a mighty wizard if you took him to the 1300's)

gnownek
2009-06-30, 10:17 PM
I'm doing close you what you suggest CDR_Doom except that the first set of classes I do will all have some melee and ranged ability then I may circle back and do more specialized classes with mainly melee or mainly ranged.
The Muscle does melee and some ranged and serves as a first class up so I can assess feat and weapon balance.
___________________________

Updated 7th July
----------

New Feats
Brawling (Pre-req:Strength or Constitution 13+):When unarmed your fists count as weapons with the following statistics (1d6 damage, +3 to hit, off hand).

Martial Arts (Pre-req: Dexterity and Constitution 13+): When unarmed your fists count as weapons with the following statistics (1d6 damage, +2 to hit and improved critical, off hand).

Judo (Pre-req: Strength 13+ or Wisdom and Constitution 13+): You have a +2 feat bonus with escape and grab attempts. When unarmed your fists count as weapons with the following statistics (1d6 damage +2 to hit, off hand weapon).

Snap Shot: To be completed, when equipped with a readied firearm you may make an opportunity attack against an opponent who charges you when he is 2 squares away from you. You have a -2 penalty to hit with this attack.

Martial Melee Mastery: Only for defenders and strikers, you are proficient in all martial weapons

Martial Ranged Mastery: Only for defenders and strikers, you are proficient in all martial weapons

Firearms: You are proficient in projectile weapons, beam weapons and grenades. When using a firearm, you can choose to fire wildly in which case you take a -2 penalty to hit for a 1d3 bonus to damage and use an additional 5 rounds of ammunition. This tactic can be combined with the double tap or burst feats for a larger penalty to hit and larger amounts of damage. Bonus damage of this type is maximised when a critical hit occurs. If an attack does damage equal to a multiple of the weapon's damage die, the bonus damage is not multiplied.

Well-practiced shooter (pre-req: Firearms): You may use a level-dependent bonus in place of your dexterity bonus for all attacks with modern ranged weapons.

Level 1-4 = +3
Level 5-12 = +4
Level 13-20 = +5
Level 20-27 = +6
Level 28-30 = +7

Balance Note: This feat prevents dexterity from becoming too valuable a characteristic given the heavy emphasis on ranged combat once firearms become available.

Heavy Weapons (pre-req: Firearms): You are proficient in heavy machine guns, rocket launchers and sprayer weapons.

Streetfighting: (pre-req: proficient in clubs or one simple weapon with the off-hand property)
+1 damage with simple melee axes and hammers with the off hand property
+1 to hit with simple, melee flails, light blades and picks with the off-hand property
+1 to damage with clubs and clubs count as an off-hand weapon

Keep Close: You have learnt to keep close to your enemies using a close-up offense as a form of defense. If you are armed with close combat weapons, you never let them get a clear shot and use your opponents as cover against their allies. You have the following benefits.

You have a +1 shield bonus to AC when holding a one handed melee weapon (including variable weapons held as two-handed weapons).

Any opponent who begins his turn adjacent to you has a -2 penalty to hit with all ranged weapons until the beginning of his next turn.

If you are armed with two-off hand melee weapons or a single off-hand melee weapon and no other melee weapons you gain an additional +2 bonus to AC against ranged attacks when you end your turn adjacent to an enemy. This bonus lasts until the end of your next turn.

Unarmed Focus: Same as Weapon Focus but applies to unarmed attacks

Unarmed Expertise: Same as Weapon Expertise but applies to unarmed attacks

Unarmed Focus: Same as Weapon Focus but applies to all firearms attacks

Unarmed Expertise: Same as Weapon Expertise but applies to all firearm attacks

Melee Training: Same as PHB II, you may use a statistic other than strength for melee basic attacks

Double Tap (pre-req: Firearms): -2 to hit, you do an additional 1d6 bonus damage with a firearm. You must be using a semiautomatic or revolver firearm and firing 2 shots at a single target in quick succession. You may also use a semi-automatic weapon firing a 3-shot burst with this feat. Bonus damage of this type is maximised when a critical hit occurs. If an attack does damage equal to a multiple of the weapon's damage die, the bonus damage is not multiplied.


Burst Fire(pre-req: Firearms): -4 to hit, you do an additional 1d8 bonus damage with a firearm when firing on the burst setting. You must be using an automatic weapon firing a 5-shot burst. Bonus damage of this type is maximised when a critical hit occurs. If an attack does damage equal to a multiple of the weapon's damage die, the bonus damage is not multiplied.


Sniper Training(pre-req: Firearms): Improved range with firearms. You are proficient with telescopic sights. More detail will be given when rules for telescopic sights are completed.

Armor Proficiency (Heavy Modern) (pre-req: Leather Armor): In addition to proficiency with certain armors, you may use a level dependent bonus to AC in place of your intelligence or dexterity statistic. This represents the effect of training in modern combat and its emphasis on use of cover and situational awareness. The statistic is level dependent and calculated as follows:

Level 1-4 = +2
Level 5-12 = +3
Level 13-20 = +4
Level 20-27 = +5
Level 28-30 = +6

Balance Note: There are modern settings where heavy armors effective against the weapons of that setting are not available. The alternative bonus to AC available here is necessary to prevent dexterity being more important than other characteristics in that kind of environment.

Armor Specialization (Heavy Modern) (pre-req: Heavy Modern): Ignore speed penalty in heavy modern armor and +1 feat bonus to AC

Armor Specialization (Power Armor): +1 feat bonus to AC

Armor Proficiency (Energy Fields) (pre-req: Leather Armor)

Armor Proficiency (Power Armor) (pre-req: Heavy Modern)

gnownek
2009-06-30, 11:07 PM
Updated 7th July

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Equipment
-Multiple names are separated by backslashes
-Where the equipment is identical to an existing fantasy weapon or armor the original name is also given, in some cases weapons are altered slightly
-* indicates a change has been made to an existing fantasy weapon or armor.
-Trained Throw: You must have Weapon Focus in this weapon or be proficient in at least one melee or ranged Martial Weapon to throw this weapon
-Trained Versatile: You must have Weapon Focus in this weapon or be proficient in at least one melee Martial Weapon to use this weapon as a one-handed weapon
-Rules changes slightly encourage the use of street gang and Yakuza weapons which fit the modern setting better.
-Kusari-gama: A knife, spike or kama may be attached to one end of the chain. You can switch between wielding the spiked chain to wielding the attached weapon in one hand and a combat chain in the other using a free action. When holding the attached weapon and combat chain, you are armed with two off-hand weapons.
-Dagger: Counts as a dagger for class abilities and feats that specify daggers
-Special proficiency: You need a specialized weapon proficiency feat with pre-requisites to become proficient in this weapon, the normal weapon proficiency feat does not apply
-Taser: This weapon is less lethal, if you do not roll a critical hit, this weapon cannot reduce a target’s hit points below 0.
-Progress Level(X): This gives the progress level at which the weapon or armor can first be found. 0- archaic items that can be made without metal, 1-archaic items requiring metal, 2-musket era equipment, 3-modern era, 4-futuristic weapon


Improvised Melee Weapons
Improvised One Handed*
+0 Prof, Dmg 1d4, WT 1-5lbs, Group None, PL:0

Improvised Two Handed*
+0 Prof, Dmg 1d6, WT 1-5lbs, Group None, PL:0

Unarmed Attack: An unarmed attack made without training
+0 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt NA, Group Unarmed, PL:0

Knuckle Dusters/ Pistol Whip: A pistol or knuckle duster can be used to strike a melee blow
+1 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt NA, Group None, PL:2

Rifle Butt: Rifles can be used in melee as two handed weapons
+1 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt NA, Group None, Two Handed, PL:2

Simple Weapons
Spike/Shiv/Ice Pick: A knife-like weapon with a sharpened spike instead of a blade
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt 1 lb, Group Pick, High Crit, Off-Hand, PL:1

Hammer: A claw hammer normally used for construction
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt 2 lb, Group Hammer, Brutal 1, Off-Hand, PL:1

Ninja Claws/Spiked Gauntlet: Gloves with deadly spikes or claws
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 1 lb. Group Unarmed, Off-Hand, PL: 1

Nunchaku/Combat Chain: A chain or pair of weighted rods connected by rope
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt 2 lb, Group Flail, Off-Hand, PL: 1

Knife/Tanto/Dagger*
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt 1 lb. Group Light Blade, Off-hand, Range 5/10, Trained Throw ,PL:1

Nightstick/Club: Club, can sometimes be shortened but weighted
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2-3 lb. Group Mace, PL:0

Cleaver/Kama/Sickle*: A heavier, slashing knife or sickle-like blade
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2 lb. Group Light Blade, Off-hand, PL: 1

Baseball Bat: Longer club
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 3-4 lb. Group Mace, Versatile, PL:0

Lead Pipe/Crowbar/Mace: Mace or very heavy, usually metallic club
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 4-6 lb. Group Mace, Trained Versatile, PL:1

Hatchet/Tomahawk/Handaxe*
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2-3 lb. Group Axe; Range 5/10, Heavy Throw, Trained Throw, Off-hand, PL:0

Spear*
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 6 lb. Group Spear; Range 3/6, Heavy Throw, Versatile, Trained Throw, Trained Versatile, PL:0

Javelin*
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 6 lb. Group Spear; Range 10/20, Heavy Throw, Trained Throw, PL:1

Great Club
+2 Prof, Dmg 2d4, Wt 8-10 lbs. Group Mace, Two Handed, PL:0

Sharpened Hockey Stick/Scythe*
+2 Prof, Dmg 2d4, Wt 6 lbs. Group Heavy Blade, Two Handed, PL:1

Mounted Bayonet
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 1lb (bayonet only) Group Spear, Two Handed, PL:2

Pitchfork
+2 Prof, Dmg 2d4, Wt 6 lbs., Group Spear, Two Handed, PL:1

Staff
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 4lbs. Group Staff, Two Handed, PL:0

Taser: electrical stunning device
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 1lb. Group None, Taser, PL:3

Hot Knife**: Small knife-sized device that emits a plasma blade
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 1 lb. Group Modern Weapon, Off-hand
** This weapon counts as a dagger for the streetfighting feat, PL:4

Stun Baton***: Small rod that fires electrical charges on contact
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 1 lb. Group Modern Weapon
*** This weapon counts as a club for the streetfighting feat, PL:4

Martial Weapons
Ice Axe/Light War Pick
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 3-4 lb. Group Pick, High Crit, Off-hand, PL:1

Ninjato/Wakizashi/Short Sword
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2 lb. Group Light Blade, Off-hand, PL:1

Machete/Butterfly Knife
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2 lb. Group Heavy Blade, Off-hand, PL:1

Cutlass/Scimitar
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 4 lb. Group Heavy Blade, High Crit, PL:1

Fireman's Axe/Battle Axe
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 6 lb. Group Axe, Versatile, PL:1

Long Chain/Three Section Staff/Flail: A chain, flail or the three section staff which is a Shao-Lin martial arts flail made from three rods connected by rope or chain
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 6 lb. Group Flail, Versatile, PL:1

Katana/Long Sword
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 4 lb. Group Heavy Blade, Versatile, PL:1

Cavalry Sabre/Broadsword
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 4 lb. Group Heavy Blade, Versatile, PL:1

Spiked Great Club/Morning Star*
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 8 lbs. Group Mace, Brutal 1, Two Handed, PL:1

Sledgehammer/Maul
+2 Prof, Dmg 2d6, Wt 10-12 lbs. Group Hammer, Two Handed, PL:1

Daito/Nodachi/Two-handed Sword
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 8 lb. Group Heavy Blade, Two Handed, PL:1

Naginata/Glaive
+2 Prof, Dmg 2d4, Wt 10lb. Group Heavy Blade/Polearm, Reach, Two Handed, PL:1

Longspear
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 8-10lbs. Group Polearm/Spear, Reach, Two Handed, PL:1

Vibro-knife: Machete-sized weapon fitted with a vibration blade that can be used to cut through armor
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 1 lb. Group Modern Weapon, Off-Hand, PL:4

Shock Prod: Metal club that uses an electrical discharge to do additional damage.
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 2 lb. Group Modern Weapon, Brutal 2, PL:4

Vibro-Axe: Axe with an alloy blade that when fitted with a vibration generator can cut through armor.
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d12, Wt 4 lb. Group Modern Weapon, Versatile, PL:4

Electro-Pike: Staff-length weapon that uses electrical discharges to do additional damage.
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d12, Wt 10lb Group Modern Weapon, Two-Hand, Brutal 3, PL:4

Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Dai-katana/Bastard Sword
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d10, Wt 5-6 lb. Group Heavy Blade, Versatile, PL:1

Meteor Hammer/Kusari-gama/Spiked Chain*: A long chain with a weight on the end and sometimes an attached dagger or spike.
+3 Prof, Dmg 2d4, Wt 8-10 lb. Group Flail, Reach, Two Handed, Kusari-Gama, PL:1

Sai/Parrying Dagger*,***
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d4, Wt 1 lb. Group Light Blade, Off-hand, Range 3/6, Defensive, PL:1
*** This weapon counts as a dagger for rogue class abilities for the streetfighting feat

Tonfa: T-shaped Club
+2 Prof, Dmg 1d6, Wt 2-3 lb. Group Mace, Off-Hand, Defensive, PL:1
*** This weapon counts as a club for the streetfighting feat

Rapier
+3 Prof, Dmg 1d8, Wt 2 lb. Group Light Blade, PL:1

Chainsaw: Large, heavy mechanized saw, PL:3
+1 Prof, Dmg 1d12, Wt 10lb Group Modern Weapon, Two-Hand, Brutal 4, PL 4

CDR_Doom
2009-06-30, 11:46 PM
I'm doing close you what you suggest CDR_Doom except that the first set of classes I do will all have some melee and ranged ability then I may circle back and do more specialized classes with mainly melee or mainly ranged.
yeah, I see that now. I missed reading a couple of your posts. I guess I'm just partial to specialized classes because they make players interact more, but you do need broader classes for parties of small size.
I like the equipment you have up there, the only one I thought was strange was that the sniper rifle has the same stats as the AK, you would think that it would be inherently more accurate. Those things like laser and telescopic sights, maybe they could be the alternative to magic upgrades for firearms?

gnownek
2009-07-01, 06:14 AM
yeah, I see that now. I missed reading a couple of your posts. I guess I'm just partial to specialized classes because they make players interact more, but you do need broader classes for parties of small size.
I like the equipment you have up there, the only one I thought was strange was that the sniper rifle has the same stats as the AK, you would think that it would be inherently more accurate. Those things like laser and telescopic sights, maybe they could be the alternative to magic upgrades for firearms?

Weapons are still at draft stage, still haven't gotten range/ability to fire bursts, down and on that point Sniper Rifle would be clearly superior to the AK-47

Scopes and bullets will be non-magical. Anything that can be bought is hard to use as a magic weapon.. if not you could end up with a military campaign where you have to find a scope before you use it.

Magical stuff, might be actual magical stuff in the fantasy + modern campaign.

Thing is for something to take the magical role in the game it has to be rare/customized to user/hard to replicate. Anything that can be mass produced is problematic. An ancient set of hand crafted power armor (boba fett) might be fit that role. A cybernetically implanted blade in the users hand.
An especially powerful lightsaber crystal.....If it is not in that category, someone would just ask why you need a ritual or the hi-tech equivalent to make it.

gnownek
2009-07-01, 09:01 AM
<Poot> I have a balance problem.

Just noticed, balance between light and heavy armor is very dependent on the difference in AC. This increases as characters rise in level. 4e balances this by improving heavy armor as more powerful magic versions turn up but I have no equivalent for my ruleset. Too many settings won't have magic modern armor.

In addition, the stronger light armor, makes Dex - Int even more valuable than Cha, Str, Con and it was already pretty valuable as is.

gnownek
2009-07-01, 11:58 AM
8 July updated------

Armors

-Multiple names are separated by backslashes
-Where the equipment is identical to an existing fantasy weapon or armor the original name is also given, in some cases weapons are altered slightly
-* indicates a change has been made to an existing fantasy weapon or armor.
-Progress Level(X): This gives the progress level at which the weapon or armor can first be found. 0- archaic items that can be made without metal, 1-archaic items requiring metal, 2-musket era equipment, 3-modern era, 4-futuristic weapon
-DR (+X): Damage resistance, this absorbs x damage from any attack that is resolved against AC
-ADR (+Y,<type of attack>): Additional damage resistance, this absorbs x damage from any attack of the specified weapon group that is resolved against AC. It stacks with damage resistance from the same piece of armor.
-Obsolete (-Z DR and/or AC,<type of attack>): The DR or AC bonus of this suit of armor is reduced by Z for the given type of attack
-Light: This is light armor
-Heavy: This is heavy armor
-Shield: This is a shield, shield bonuses stack with other armor bonuses
-Powered: Armor is effectively weightless when functioning.

Archaic Armor
Leather Armor*
DR(+2), Obsolete (-2 DR, modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Wt 15lbs, Check+0, Speed+0, Light, PL (0)

Hide Armor*
AC (+1), DR(+2), Obsolete (-2 DR, modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Wt 25lbs, Check-1, Speed+0, Light, PL (0)

Chain Armor*
AC (+3), DR(+3), Obsolete (-2 DR, -2 AC , modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Wt 40lbs, Check-1, Speed-1, Heavy, PL (1)

Breastplate and Helm: Popular armor used in the musket era.
AC (+4), DR(+2), Obsolete (-2 DR, -2 AC , modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Wt 35lbs, Check-0, Speed-1, Uses Chain Mail Proficiency, Heavy, PL (2)

Scale Armor*
AC (+4), DR(+3), Obsolete (-2 DR, -2 AC , modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam

weapons), Wt 45lbs, Check+0, Speed-1, Heavy, PL (1)

Plate Mail Armor*
AC (+4), DR(+4), Obsolete (-2 DR, -2 AC , modern weapons, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Wt 50lbs, Check-2, Speed-1, Heavy, PL (1)

Light Shield*
AC(+1), Obsolete (-1 AC, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Check+0 Speed+0, Wt 6lb, Shield

Heavy Shield*
AC(+2), Obsolete (-2 AC, Check+0, projectile weapons and beam weapons), Check+0, Speed+0, Wt 15lb, Shield

Modern Armor
Undercover Vest: Light bulletproof material worn under clothing. At higher progress levels, the armor can be made to resemble normal clothing.
ADR(+2, projectile weapons) Wt 5 bs, Check+0, Speed+0, PL (3), Light, No proficiency required

Bulletproof Vest: Light armor made from bulletproof material. Armor is visible and obvious.
AC(+2), ADR(+2, projectile weapons), Wt 15 lbs, Check+0, Speed+0, PL (3), Light, Leather armor proficiency required

Combat Armor: Heavy armor made from bulletproof material. Armor is visible and obvious.
AC(+4) DR(+2), ADR(+2, projectile weapons), Wt 30lbs, Check-1, Speed-1, PL (3), Heavy, Modern armor proficiency required

Blast Cloth Vest: Clothing made from energy and impact resistant material.
ADR(+2, projectile weapons, beam weapons), Wt 4lbs, Check+0, Speed+0, PL (4), Light, No proficiency required

Blast Armor Vest: Light armor made from energy and impact resistant material.
AC(+1), DR(+1), ADR(+2, projectile weapons, beam weapons), Wt 12lbs, Check+0, Speed+0, PL (4), Light, Leather armor proficiency required

Mesh Armor: Medium armor made from energy and impact resistant material. Armor is visible and obvious.
AC(+1), DR(+2), ADR(+2, projectile weapons, beam weapons), Wt 16lbs, Check-1, Speed+0, PL (4), Light, Hide armor proficiency required

Carapace Armor: Heavy, hi-tech plate armor.
AC(+4) DR(+2), ADR(+2, projectile weapons, beam weapons), Wt 30lbs, Check-1, Speed-1, PL (4), Heavy, Modern armor proficiency required

Bounty Hunter Armor: Heavy, powered, hi-tech plate armor.
AC(+5) DR(+2), ADR(+2, projectile weapons, beam weapons), Wt 30lbs, Check-1, Speed+0, PL (4), Heavy, Powered, Powered armor proficiency required

Riot Shield
AC(+2), Obsolete (-2 AC, beam weapons), Check+0, Speed+0, Wt 12lb, Shield, You may use this piece of equipment with the Heavy Shield or Light Shield Proficiency. You have a -1 penalty to attacks if you use the shield without the Heavy Shield proficiency.

Force Field,
You have a +1 bonus to AC if you are wearing armor. If you are unarmoured, the total bonus to defense is +1 to AC and +2 DR against projectile weapons and beam weapons.

Customized Armor - Customized versions of modern heavy or power armors are available. You may use part of your Dex or Intelligence bonus to AC with
customized armor.

Level 1 customised armor (typically affordable for level 4 characters), +1 dx/int bonus possible
Level 2 customised armor (typically affordable for level 10 characters) +2 dx/int bonus possible
Level 3 customised armor (typically affordable for level 16 characters) +3 dx/int bonus possible
Level 4 customised armor (typically affordable for level 22 characters) +4 dx/int bonus possible
Level 5 customised armor (typically affordable for level 28 characters) +5 dx/int bonus possible

Balance commentary: These are the equivalent of masterwork archaic armor in fantasy campaigns. These have been added to preserve the balance between light and heavy armor users at higher levels.

jmbrown
2009-07-01, 12:30 PM
<Poot> I have a balance problem.

Just noticed, balance between light and heavy armor is very dependent on the difference in AC. This increases as characters rise in level. 4e balances this by improving heavy armor as more powerful magic versions turn up but I have no equivalent for my ruleset. Too many settings won't have magic modern armor.

In addition, the stronger light armor, makes Dex - Int even more valuable than Cha, Str, Con and it was already pretty valuable as is.

4E assumes that players gain +1 to their AC, attack, damage, and defenses through equipment every other level. You receive a +1 to these every even level regardless thus the system balances itself by expecting you to acquire equipment to make up for the odd numbered levels.

I'll have to find it, but the suggestion for low magic campaigns is in the DMG I believe. They tell you how to handle a lack of equipment.

Edit: You don't have to come up with anything magical or outrageous to make controllers work. My idea of a modern controler is someone who taunts and makes wild area attacks. For example

Dangerous Leer: At-Will
All who gaze upon your grimace have second thoughts about engaging you.
Close 3
Cha vs. Will
1d6+cha push opponent one square.

Roundhouse Kick: At-Will
You spin around, kicking all those foolish enough to approach.
Area burst 1
Atk vs. Ac
1d8+str

gnownek
2009-07-01, 02:14 PM
I was going to put some trickster/intimidator powers in the talker class.

I suspect more powerful, almost martial controller powers are best done in a psionic class. Just as a bard has some arcane powers that could easily be martial in nature and the monk has psionic powers that look like a martial power - but the arcane and psionic power sources makes them just a little more believable.

You OK, with me incorporating some of those powers though? Some good ideas - they may make good talker or martial artist classes.

jmbrown
2009-07-01, 02:17 PM
I'm just tossing out ideas for a simple, no magic, real world mundane game idea.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-01, 02:47 PM
I'm just tossing out ideas for a simple, no magic, real world mundane game idea.

This is, I think, the best way to do it. Not all games include magic.

With that in mind, I think it's best to do away with the Controller role entirely. Instead, fold it into the other roles. For example...

A ranged Striker character uses Rapid Fire Assault to sweep a large area clear of foes. He then uses Covering Fire to force foes to take cover, stopping them in their tracks if they try to take a different action.

A melee Defender uses Furious Charge to run through a group of foes, knocking them all prone. Next round he whips out a Stunning Dervish Kick, dazing everything adjacent to himself.

A melee Leader uses Resolute Stance, causing enemies around him to back away, temporarily awed by the impressive display of courage.

In fact, I'd personally do away with roles entirely...but that's just me.

gnownek
2009-07-01, 07:07 PM
Other classes are definitely going to have some awe/intimidate/distract martial powers

----------------------
Modifications

Weapon Modifcations
Explosive ammo:-1 to hit, improved critical
Laser Sight: To be sorted out
Tracer Ammo: -1 to damage, +1 to hit with burst fire
Telescopic Sight: To be sorted out
Grenade Launcher Attachment: To be sorted out
Shotgun Attachment: To be sorted out
Extra Ammo: Extra large magazine
Flechette Projectile Weapon: Rebuilds gun to fire flechettes, range reduced but can carry more ammo
Pistol Implant: Small energy weapon added to hi-tech melee weapon

Cybernetics
Much like magic items, take up similar slots. Rules are to be balanced against magic items.

Power Armor
Basic power armor is already described. Further enhancements to be decided later and to be balanced against cybernetics.

Heavy Weapons
Need to have some framework for vehicles before I finish this off. Must wait so rocket launchers aren't too effective against persons or too effective against vehicles.

imp_fireball
2009-07-01, 07:37 PM
yeah, I see that now. I missed reading a couple of your posts. I guess I'm just partial to specialized classes because they make players interact more, but you do need broader classes for parties of small size.
I like the equipment you have up there, the only one I thought was strange was that the sniper rifle has the same stats as the AK, you would think that it would be inherently more accurate. Those things like laser and telescopic sights, maybe they could be the alternative to magic upgrades for firearms?

Thing is, a sniper rifle is not inherently more accurate than a pistol however it most definitely has a higher range increment. Perhaps there could be a rule for 'focused shots' or scopes (latter only applies bonus during focused/sighted shots)?

Also the Ak is technically more accurate when fully automatic since when spraying, you're gauranteed to hit something, but whether or not that's the enemy is not gauranteed (you'll be hitting lots of other things like cover, particularly in a full attack action).


Cybernetics
Much like magic items, take up similar slots. Rules are to be balanced against magic items.

Plenty of cybernetics belong inside the body too though. What's to stop people from creating cybernetic-dirived templates? I know you're referring to external cybernetics, unless you've already planned for what I just mentioned.
----

Finally, I'm surprised that people haven't cried for the OP to do away with this and use D20 modern instead. Why can't 3.5 receive the same sort of treatment as this? I think Djinn particularly hasn't lambasted this, just becasue he hates me.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-01, 08:43 PM
Finally, I'm surprised that people haven't cried for the OP to do away with this and use D20 modern instead. Why can't 3.5 receive the same sort of treatment as this? I think Djinn particularly hasn't lambasted this, just becasue he hates me.

I don't hate you at all. I don't hate people, even when they do deserve it. Which you don't. I just happen to disagree with you. There's a big difference, at least in my personal philosophy. If you personally attack me, I'll be miffed, or perhaps put out. If you come over to where I live and threaten my friends, I'll be annoyed or angry...and that's something that's scary to see, I've been told. If you do neither of these (which you haven't), I'll disagree with you politely where I see fit, and happily work alongside you where our interests coincide. :smallbiggrin:

The reason I'm not lambasting this is because this is something that d20 Modern hasn't seen before. As it stands, d20 Modern is (basically) D&D 3.5, as I tried to explain to you. Or it's 3.0 (I forget the exact timeline of release, but the difference is marginal). Technical differences aside, it's the same system with some marginal changes. What d20 Modern hasn't seen yet is something like the 4e. I'm game to see how it goes.

It's an entirely different case from the one you and I disagreed on. It's shifting to a radically new system, not just a system where the only real difference is in class abilities, the way armor works, weaponry, and a few feats.

gnownek
2009-07-01, 08:56 PM
Cybernetics will be treated like magic weapons but implanted in the body like Warforged. I fully intend for there to be at least one Cybernetic Paragon Class and one Cybernetic Destiny which give even more abilities and have the prereq: have at least one Cybernetic implant.

I intend no disrespect to d20 Modern, which is awesome just trying to see how far I can bend 4e in the direction of Cinematic Modern gaming.

Exhaustive low-tech melee list up with big list of street gang and yakuza weapons :)

gnownek
2009-07-01, 10:42 PM
Ranged Weapons
* Indicates the weapon is changed from its fantasy equivalent

-Trained Reload: If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may load this weapon as at a faster rate. A load full-round weapon becomes a load move weapon. A load move weapon becomes a load minor weapon. A load minor weapon becomes a load free weapon.
-Magazine (x): The weapon has a magazine with x bullets. Changing a magazine is a free action if the magazine is easily accessible and a minor action if the magazine is stored. Generally speak, you have room for 1-3 magazines or 4-6 speedloaders in pockets that are easily accessible. You can double this for combat webbing, designed to keep ammunition in easily accessible positions. Small amounts of ammunition, are easier to conceal.
-Load Minor: Loading this

Simple Ranged
Sling Shot
Range 8/16, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d4 damage, Type:Projectile, Trained Reload, One Handed

Crossbow, Hand*
Range 10/20, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d6 damage, Type:Crossbow, Trained Reload, One Handed

Crossbow*
Range 15/30, Load Move, +2 to hit, 1d8 damage, Type:Crossbow, Trained Reload, Two Handed

Military Ranged
Sling*
Range 10/20, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d6 damage, Type:Projectile, Trained Reload, One Handed

Bow, Short*
Range 15/30, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d6 damage, Type:Bow, Trained Reload, Two Handed, Small

Bow, Long*
Range 20/40, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d8 damage, Type:Bow, Trained Reload, Two Handed

Bow, Composite: This curved bow is made from sophisticated modern materials.
Range 15/30, Load Minor, +2 to hit, 1d8 damage, Type:Bow, Trained Reload, Two Handed, Small

Modern Crossbow: The crossbow uses levers and pulleys to allow a more powerful bolt
Range 20/35, Load Move, +2 to hit, 1d10 damage, Type:Crossbow, Trained Reload, Two Handed, Small

--------------------------

.22 rifle 2d4 damage +4 to hit
.22 pistol 2d4 damage +3 to hit
9mm Pistol 2d6 + 3 to hit hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Colt.45 2d8 damage +2 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Mauser pistol
Uzi Sub Machine Gun
Shotgun 2d6 damage and improved critical + 3 to hit
or 2d8 damage and +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
M-16 2d6 damage +4 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
AK-47 2d8 damage +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Sniper Rifle 2d8 damage +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Energy Weapon 2d6 damage +4 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6

imp_fireball
2009-07-02, 03:43 PM
I don't hate you buddy ol' pal!

It was more of a humorous remark really. I know you don't hate me. Just expressing frustration. :smalltongue:
---

Idea of my Own: Mass Effect is pretty combat intensive and having a game in that setting sort of based around this system would be interesting - also, additional stats like weapon overheating and some biotics psionic power additions (which would be comparitively minor).

IMO, it would be harder using d20 modern for a mass effect game - especially considering all of the players involved would be expected to know how to fight and behave like adventurers.

jmbrown
2009-07-03, 09:52 PM
I'm going to focus on the more mundane side of things because suddenly I'm interested in this.

Roles are important to 4E and D20 Modern pretty much created roles. Instead of defender, striker, etc. you have strong, tough, fast, etc. The advanced classes can be easily modified to paragon classes.

Mando Knight
2009-07-03, 10:12 PM
Modern Weapon Proficiency (In Rough)

.22 rifle 2d4 damage +4 to hit
.22 pistol 2d4 damage +3 to hit
9mm Pistol 2d6 + 3 to hit hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Colt.45 2d8 damage +2 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Mauser pistol
Uzi Sub Machine Gun
Shotgun 2d6 damage and improved critical + 3 to hit
or 2d8 damage and +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
M-16 2d6 damage +4 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
AK-47 2d8 damage +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Sniper Rifle 2d8 damage +3 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
Energy Weapon 2d6 damage +4 to hit 2d6 multiplier so (2[w]) does 2d8+2d6
What's with the "multiplier?" It's not multiplying anything!

These Proficiency Bonuses are pretty high. Nothing in 4e gets a base +4 proficiency bonus, and only the superior crossbow gets a +3 out of the bow/crossbow groups. I'd knock the +4s down to +3 and bump the +3s except for the Sniper Rifle down to +2.

Vadin
2009-07-03, 10:22 PM
About guns: Remember that 4e has a balance already in place. Changing it around too much will definitely throw things off. If you want guns to be more powerful, I'd keep them as bows and crossbows but make everything else just a little bit weaker.

Lowering all non-gun proficiency bonuses by 1 is one way to do this without tilting the balance too far one way or the other.

jmbrown
2009-07-03, 10:31 PM
The DMG gives out rules for balanced damage based on level.

If anything, I'd reduce the proficiency given to a gun. Some guns are harder to use/less accurate than others. You're not going to do much damage with a buckshot from 50 feet away like you'd do from 10 feet.

Weapons have special conditions like heavy thrown or whatever so guns should have something in place. Spread weapons like the shotgun should be an area attack since the pellets spread. You should also have "burst fire" which lets you make three attacks but with no modifier given by proficiency.

Vadin
2009-07-03, 10:33 PM
I turned most guns into magic items when I did a post-apocalyptic 4e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82350) conversion.

Feel free to borrow anything from there you think would fit.

Mando Knight
2009-07-03, 10:40 PM
About guns: Remember that 4e has a balance already in place. Changing it around too much will definitely throw things off. If you want guns to be more powerful, I'd keep them as bows and crossbows but make everything else just a little bit weaker.

Lowering all non-gun proficiency bonuses by 1 is one way to do this without tilting the balance too far one way or the other.

Or change the weapon types of the standard fantasy weapons... A longbow isn't a bad weapon even now, but it would qualify as a Superior weapon rather than a Military weapon.

I would use the brutal property instead of extra damage dice. 2d8 is ridiculous, especially when you get high [W] powers.

gnownek
2009-07-04, 08:20 AM
Good thought on guns - I have 'em about +2 to hit and +2 damage more powerful than the a low tech melee weapon. I might make that +1 to hit and +2 to damage.

But if I balance them against longbows, melee would be overused for cinematic modern combat. I'm sticking to the relative effectiveness of guns vs melee from d20 modern here.

Talyn
2009-07-04, 04:08 PM
Since gunplay is going to be such a factor in a modern, cinematic action game, we'll need to tweak the rules for taking cover a bit. Using cover (and creating cover, and flushing enemies from behind cover) should be a major party of combat tactics.

Maybe have multiple levels of cover - three levels, at least. As a suggestion, I present modified cover rules:

Partial cover - a person protected by partial cover has some limbs and some vital organs protected. Example: a soldier standing on the other side of a waist-high pile of sandbags, a fugitive taking cover behind a decent-sized tree, a gangster shooting around the corner of a building.
+2 to Armor Class vs. Ranged and Burst, +2 Reflex vs. Ranged and Burst.

Effective Cover - a person's vital organs (except perhaps the head) are protected. Example: a soldier kneeling in the firing position on the other side of a waist-high pile of sandbags, a sniper lying prone in rocky terrain, a terrorist looking out from a high window.
+4 to Armor Class vs. Ranged and Burst, +3 to Reflex vs Ranged and Burst.

Full Cover - a person's limbs, vital organs, and head are covered. Example: a gunner behind an armored turret, a soldier kneeling behind pile of sandbags and keeping his head down, a sniper firing from inside a fortified bunker.
+6 to Armor Class vs. Ranged and Burst, +4 to Reflex vs. Ranged and Burst. Automatically takes 1/2 damage from all attacks that go vs. AC or Reflex.
Note: Unless in a building or structure specifically designed to provide full cover to active combatants, it is usually impossible to fight effectively from behind full cover. A person behind full cover can usually only make basic attacks (at a -4 penalty) and attacks that specifically are designated as being usable while behind full cover.


The nice thing about making cover so much more useful is that it a) compensates for the increased lethality of guns, so as to keep the battles long enough to be interesting, and b) it means that you can use armor purely as Damage Resistance, rather than improving your AC, which is more important thematically for a modern game.

Having dramatically effective cover also lets you create powers that use or improve cover. As a sample power:

Flushing Shot
This ought to bring them out into the open!
Encounter, Martial, Weapon
Gunfighter 1
Standard Action, Archaic or Modern Ranged Weapon
DEX vs. AC

1[W]+DEX damage, and target is shifted up to two spaces. It cannot gain the advantages of cover until the end of the Gunfighter's next turn.

Talyn
2009-07-04, 04:10 PM
Oh, another thing - you might want to change Minion's XP values because Minions are going to be both more common (to get that cinematic feel) and more deadly (since a lot of them will be using guns!). They should probably be worth 1/3 the XP of a ordinary creature of the level, instead of 1/4.

gnownek
2009-07-07, 01:08 PM
Race: Grey
The grey alien race is a common alien race normally occupying low-level positions in the hierarchy of alien races. They have often been used as scouts and spies by other alien races. Greys have shown a tendency to identify with the human race and have 'gone local' on occasion, breaking links with other aliens and forming hidden, isolated communities. Some grey communities who have been present on earth for several generations have become shorter and developed a greenish-skin tone. These communities are sometimes known as "grey-greens". Greys are usually bald with nostril holes and no nose, large black pupiless eyes and long fingers. Greys can draw part of their sustenance from photosynthesis and can reduce their food consumption by half with no ill-effects but must consume twice the normal amount of water.

Racial Trait
Average Height: 5'-5'4"
Average Weight: 90 lbs - 120 lbs
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma("greys") or +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom ("grey-greens")
Size: Medium
Speed: 6
Vision: Low-light vision
Language: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff, +2 Insight

Racial Trait
Grey Resistance
You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Will and Fortitude defense.

Grey Recovery
You may add your Wisdom or your Charisma bonus to the number of hit points you regain from the first healing surge you use each day.

Cloaking
You gain the Cloaking power.

Cloaking Racial Power
At-Will ◆ Psionic, Illusion, Charm
Minor Action    Personal

Effect: You can alter your physical form to resemble any humanoid being of small or medium size. Technological recording equipment records your presence as a grey blur. The ability is partly a mind-affecting effect but the blurring effect is a visual projection. If you regularly appear as a being of a specific race, you may develop a unique, recognizable persona that you can recreate at will. You may not duplicate a specific individual. "Grey-greens" have used this ability to imitate mythological beings when interacting with primitive cultures.

gnownek
2009-07-07, 01:35 PM
Race: Enhanced
You are a gentically enhanced human being, engineered for superior physical characteristics and resistance to damage.

Height: 6'-6'6"
Weight: 150-220lbs.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light vision
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Athletics
Languages: Common

Hard To Kill
When reduced to 0 hit points you are less likely to die. You may roll two dice for your death saving throw and take the better of the two.

Enhanced Mind
You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Will Defense

Poison & Disease Resistance
+2 racial bonus to saving throws against Poison and Disease

Enhanced Vigor
Encounter, Healing
Free Action, Personal
Special: You must be bloodied to use this power
You regain hit points equal to your Strength bonus

gnownek
2009-07-10, 09:25 AM
http://www.goodman-games.com/FRPGD09-amethyst.html

Did some research and goodman games is doing something modernish releasing September. The freebie at this link is worth looking at.

gnownek
2009-12-14, 10:58 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6765222#post6765222

I have continued this thread in a totally different thread