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View Full Version : The Daleks vs. The Necrons



Meshakhad
2009-06-30, 06:45 PM
Who would win in the Omnicidal War? Borrowing from the AvP tagline: Whoever wins, we lose.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 06:50 PM
Details?

I mean, what kind of fight we talking? Ground level scrap, cross time godlike level chaos, "We would destroy the Necrons with ONE Dalek!" or what?

Because details like that tend to factor in.

Trizap
2009-06-30, 06:52 PM
Daleks................

Oslecamo
2009-06-30, 07:01 PM
If the necrons can bring the Void Dragon into the fray, they may have a chance, otherwise time traveling is just too cheesy.

Meshakhad
2009-06-30, 09:33 PM
Empires. The Dalek Empire under their Emperor vs. the Necrons as currently shown in 40k.

Also, we shall assume that neither Davros nor the Void Dragon are involved.

Yulian
2009-06-30, 09:46 PM
Details?

I mean, what kind of fight we talking? Ground level scrap, cross time godlike level chaos, "We would destroy the Necrons with ONE Dalek!" or what?


The best smack-talk any Dalek has ever laid down. And it was to the bitch-ass Cybermen.

And individual Dalek is incredibly powerful. We almost never see them go down in a fight. They can survive a fall from orbit, they can achieve escape velocity under their own power.

But yes, setting matters a bit. The C'Tan are not to be taken lightly.

- Yulian

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 09:49 PM
The best smack-talk any Dalek has ever laid down. And it was to the bitch-ass Cybermen.

And individual Dalek is incredibly powerful. We almost never see them go down in a fight. They can survive a fall from orbit, they can achieve escape velocity under their own power.

But yes, setting matters a bit. The C'Tan are not to be taken lightly.

- Yulian

Yeah. I mean, a guy of the same general type, IE sleeping/imprisoned gods of evil, (Sutekh, if you're wondering) was said by the Doctor to be, bar none, the worst foe he ever ran into, and he only stopped the guy by preventing him from ever getting free. If the C'Tan are in on this, even if Sutekh is assumed to be worse than them, all bets are off.

Starscream
2009-06-30, 11:18 PM
Daleks, hands down. Don't get me wrong the Necrons would put up a good fight (better than the Cybermen anyway), but they can't compete with Dalek technology.

The Daleks can travel through time, cross into parallel universes, transport planets across time and space, and even developed a weapon that would literally destroy the universe.

Only way to realistically beat them with with extreme applied phebotinum. The Warhammer philosophy of "just make the gun bigger" wouldn't accomplish much.

Verruckt
2009-07-01, 12:56 AM
Only way to realistically beat them with with extreme applied phebotinum. The Warhammer philosophy of "just make the gun bigger" wouldn't accomplish much.

Ahem *points at the Gurren Lagan "shoot everything at everywhere, everywhen" gun*

If making the gun bigger doesn't work, then clearly you didn't make the gun big enough. That said, the C'tan are not to be taken lightly, and the Necrons at their height were a galaxy spanning empire, but time travel is just such a major element that they really have no chance.

On the other hand, it may not work out that way, because the further back the Daleks go, the stronger the Necrons get. There are actually more C'tan and more active necrontyr the further back you go. Even if the Daleks were to arrive before the Necrontyr made their pact they'd still have to contend with the entire host of full strength star gods. Their major linchpin may prove ineffectual or even damaging.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-01, 01:43 AM
Daleks. Even without the power of Plot and the Rule of Cool.

They would have to fight a bit, even take some casualties. And that would annoy them.

Now pit them against the whole 40k universe.

And yes, personally I hold "that smack talk" to be the best smack talk by anyone, anywhere, in any universe.

Thufir
2009-07-01, 06:47 AM
On the other hand, it may not work out that way, because the further back the Daleks go, the stronger the Necrons get.

Does this trend continue? Because they can travel forwards in time as well, you know.

J.Gellert
2009-07-01, 07:04 AM
Daleks. Even without the power of Plot and the Rule of Cool.

I am confused... Are you implying that Daleks are cooler than Necrons? :smallconfused:

thorgrim29
2009-07-01, 08:17 AM
Of course they are, EXterMINATE!!!

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 08:24 AM
Does this trend continue? Because they can travel forwards in time as well, you know.

Depending on who you support. The Necrons could return to being almighty universe conquering gods in the future. Or they could be run over and left as roadkill by (your favorite faction here).

PirateMonk
2009-07-01, 08:24 AM
Does this trend continue? Because they can travel forwards in time as well, you know.

While they can, unlike defeating the Necrons in the past, this would not cause the present Necrons to be defeated.

Renegade Paladin
2009-07-01, 08:27 AM
The Necrons. You see, all they have to do is climb some stairs, and...

:smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I don't know enough about either one to call it. What's this about a Dalek smack-talking the Cybermen, though? Sounds like something I want to hear. :smallamused:

Emperor Ing
2009-07-01, 08:29 AM
If you don't knock them down they get back up. If they don't get back up they get back up after several days or even hours. Their Necron Lords are pretty much Demigods at the weakest and their weakest weapons for their most basic foot soldier can turn a person into a pile of dust regardless of armor.

If you go forward in time there may be less to fight but they'll still be uber powerful.

If you go back in time its an even bigger suicide mission than it was before.

kamikasei
2009-07-01, 08:36 AM
What's this about a Dalek smack-talking the Cybermen, though? Sounds like something I want to hear. :smallamused:

Top result for "Daleks vs Cybermen" on YouTube last I checked. Well worth a look.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-01, 08:43 AM
Top result for "Daleks vs Cybermen" on YouTube last I checked. Well worth a look.

Indeed. Funny though it does not contain the "Your momma..." part with a Dalek voice... :smallbiggrin:

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-01, 08:44 AM
The Necrons. You see, all they have to do is climb some stairs, and...

Lev-I-Tate!!!
Lev-I-Tate!!!

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 10:29 AM
If you don't knock them down they get back up. If they don't get back up they get back up after several days or even hours. Their Necron Lords are pretty much Demigods at the weakest and their weakest weapons for their most basic foot soldier can turn a person heavy tank into a pile of dust regardless of armor.


Just had to fix that little nitpick, please continue.

Kyouhen
2009-07-01, 10:38 AM
I think I'd have to give this one to the Necrons. Daleks are pretty awesome, but they have nothing that could compete with the C'Tan. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that if they used their time travel anywhere within sight of a C'Tan they'd probably figure out how it works (Can't the C'Tan see molecules moving around kind of the Dr. Manhattan could?) and reproduce it. Now you've got time-travelling Necrons. And let's not forget that if the Daleks start to win a battle the Necrons can just teleport their entire army out of there and come back later.

Eldan
2009-07-01, 12:36 PM
Thank you. Now I'll have nightmares about Time-travelling Necrons. (Well, not really. but the idea is scary :smalltongue:)

Now imagine: tomorrow morning, a few tomb ships pop up to nuke the world before the imperium gets really powerful.

On the other hand, they would run into the emperor, then.

Pastafarian
2009-07-01, 12:39 PM
Does this trend continue? Because they can travel forwards in time as well, you know.

The Necrons are awakening, and the trend is almost certainly going to begin to reverse itself. They have been at their weakest ever over the last several millennia, and even then they were just asleep in their tombs, not actually at risk.

One big question is scale. Things in the 40k universe are vastly bigger than anything almost anywhere else, barring that Gurren Lagann show. There are at minimum billions of Necrons, and that leaves out all the monoliths, starships, and the big ground stuff we never see because it wouldn't fit in a 40k game. How many Daleks are there? Do they have anything besides infantry?


Thank you. Now I'll have nightmares about Time-travelling Necrons. (Well, not really. but the idea is scary )

Now imagine: tomorrow morning, a few tomb ships pop up to nuke the world before the imperium gets really powerful.

On the other hand, they would run into the emperor, then.

Maybe you should really have nightmares; if they show up actually tomorrow morning, I don't think the Emperor has been born yet :smalleek:

Eldan
2009-07-01, 12:41 PM
There are those quite silly "Heavy Weapon Daleks", but really, their infantry are tanks. Then they have world-destroying, faster-than-light time-travelling space ships.

Dallas-Dakota
2009-07-01, 12:52 PM
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u130/Castaras/Dalek.png

Stormthorn
2009-07-01, 12:56 PM
Daleks. Even without the power of Plot and the Rule of Cool.

They would have to fight a bit, even take some casualties. And that would annoy them.

Now pit them against the whole 40k universe.

And yes, personally I hold "that smack talk" to be the best smack talk by anyone, anywhere, in any universe.

Daleks dont have cool. They are essentialy a whisk and a plunger attacked to a large steampunk Roomba.

An individual Dalek could kill a necron with its death ray. Now some of the necron vehicles and their big temple-y things also have massive deathrays.

Ultimatly the Necrons would need their gods to win. If they could get that one thats buried in mars then they could probably hijack all Dalek tech including thier metal casing body things.


are at minimum billions of Necrons
Considering that they caused mass extinction on a galactic scale i would say they number more in the quadrillions.


Also, if we assume they existe din seperate universes until the moment this thread was declared then traveling back in time only goes back to before you met them. That is, before you could harm them since they are in a different universe.

Mr.Silver
2009-07-01, 12:58 PM
Much as I like Daleks, unless they resort exclusively to time-travel tactics they're probably going to lose this. In a straight fight, Necron Gauss weaponry is probably one of the few things capable of beating Dalek defences (as there is very it can't overcome, if it's sustained long enough). The second point, is that the Necrons are, essentially, immortal. Daleks aren't. In space comabt I'm not sure, but the most powerful Necron Tombships probably do pack firepower on a planetary scale (I think I recall one short fluff piece set during the war with the old ones that showed a necron ship slowly pulling a star apart). They're also a lot more numerous and probably have a serious manouverability advantage.
Daleks only real hope is scouting out all the tomb worlds then send strike forces back in time to before those worlds had risen to destroy the tombs then. Even in that case though there's no guarantee what would happen if they ran up against one of the C'tan, even in a weakened state they're put up one hell of a fight. In any other scenario though, the Necrons will just win through sheer attrition, as they have the daleks outnumbered and quite possibly outgunned.

Eldan
2009-07-01, 12:59 PM
The question, though, is if the basic necron gauss gun could kill or wound a necron. It probably can, given that it kills tanks.

Selrahc
2009-07-01, 01:00 PM
The Daleks have weapons that can utterly destroy the Necrons, enough that their Get Back Up will be a non factor.

The Necrons on the other, can hurt the Daleks. Thats more than most opposition could do. I would give a non time travel fight to the Necrons due to weight of numbers and C'Tan.


If time travel is brought into it though.. Daleks win, no question. Far from "getting stronger" the Necrons would in fact be completely inert if the Daleks made even a short jump into the past. The Necrons have been completely inactive for millions of years and Dalek kill teams could be sent to clean out the tombs much more effectively than anything in 40K could manage. If they go back even further, they could wipe out the Necrontyr before they become the Necrons.

A united Necron Empire stands a good chance of beating Daleks. The squabbling mass it has become with each C'Tan essentially mucking around safe in the knowledge that they are immortal would fall easily. The only Necrons that have a shot are the Necron Empire at its height with no time travel from the Daleks. The Daleks are a threat at least as palpable as the old ones in their prime.

Renegade Paladin
2009-07-01, 01:11 PM
Maybe you should really have nightmares; if they show up actually tomorrow morning, I don't think the Emperor has been born yet :smalleek:
I would like to point out that the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind was born in ancient prehistory, circa 10,000 BC. :smalltongue:

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-01, 01:14 PM
Daleks dont have cool. They are essentialy a whisk and a plunger attacked to a large steampunk Roomba.

An individual Dalek could kill a necron with its death ray. Now some of the necron vehicles and their big temple-y things also have massive deathrays.

Ultimatly the Necrons would need their gods to win. If they could get that one thats buried in mars then they could probably hijack all Dalek tech including thier metal casing body things.


Considering that they caused mass extinction on a galactic scale i would say they number more in the quadrillions.


Also, if we assume they existe din seperate universes until the moment this thread was declared then traveling back in time only goes back to before you met them. That is, before you could harm them since they are in a different universe.

Daleks do not have cool. They ARE cool. The whole point is that they are Cool DESPITE your description.
As for numbers... Isn't the only 40k race that has any contacts outside the milky way the bugs?
The ultimate plan for the Daleks is to kill every other lifeform in the universe. As far as I know, the Necrons have never managed to spead outside the galaxy?

Eldan
2009-07-01, 01:15 PM
Huh. Thinking about it... isn't that the Necron's goal as well?

I mean, they would never, ever team up, both species just don't do that, but imagine the horror.

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 01:21 PM
. . .

Uhm. Maybe I missed something, but what's stopping a Necron from teleporting behind the Dalek and picking it up at an angle that the top spinner with the gun either can't rotate or shoot it?

Or just pushing them over?

:smallconfused:

Renegade Paladin
2009-07-01, 01:23 PM
. . .

Uhm. Maybe I missed something, but what's stopping a Necron from teleporting behind the Dalek and picking it up at an angle that the top spinner with the gun either can't rotate or shoot it?

Or just pushing them over?

:smallconfused:
Or climbing stairs. :smallbiggrin:

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-01, 01:29 PM
Or climbing stairs. :smallbiggrin:

...Or not. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OYMzkJ5dqk)

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 01:32 PM
. . .

Uhm. Maybe I missed something, but what's stopping a Necron from teleporting behind the Dalek and picking it up at an angle that the top spinner with the gun either can't rotate or shoot it?

Or just pushing them over?

:smallconfused:

Like already pointed out, it was later revealed in the series that Daleks can levitate to avoid such kind of humiliations. The poor fools laughed as they climbed the stairs, leaving the dalek behind. None survived.

Anyway, if time travel isn't allowed, then the Daleks are screwed, since necrons can indeed teleport at will and their weapons pack more punch.

kamikasei
2009-07-01, 01:49 PM
Uhm. Maybe I missed something, but what's stopping a Necron from teleporting behind the Dalek and picking it up at an angle that the top spinner with the gun either can't rotate or shoot it?

I'm not sure what you mean. Both the top section (with the eyestalk) and the midsection (with the gun and manipulator) can rotate independently so the Dalek can bring its gun to bear on pretty much any point around it.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-01, 01:51 PM
In terms of a 1 on 1 fight, I noticed an inconsistency. There's no doubt a Gauss Gun would annihilate a Dalek unit, but there's the matter of the Death Ray. Its questionable wether or not the necron hit would simply...get back up like they usually do. DDRs (Dalek Death Rays) don't really seem to do anything to the target on impact, so there's the possibility that Necrons are IMMUNE to DDRs. While I would side with the necrons due to their sheer numbers, firepower, and general invincibility, I really don't know if this could work as a fight.

Eldan
2009-07-01, 01:53 PM
I really have no idea how the DDR works, or what it's supposed to do. However, given how long they've been around and their high tech level, I'm sure they could just build some lasers or rockets if necessary. Of course, if they first needed to do that, the Necrons would have an initial advantage, which could bring them far together with their superior numbers.

lisiecki
2009-07-01, 04:13 PM
I really have no idea how the DDR works, or what it's supposed to do. However, given how long they've been around and their high tech level, I'm sure they could just build some lasers or rockets if necessary. Of course, if they first needed to do that, the Necrons would have an initial advantage, which could bring them far together with their superior numbers.

They shoot things.
Things that are shot die.

In 20 years of watching Dr Who
I cant think of anything that was shot, and didnt just die right there
(I could be wrong, i started watching the 4th Dr on PBS as a kid...
Doctor Who and Degrassi High, my parents wouldnt get cable, its the reasion i have issues)

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 04:17 PM
They shoot things.
Things that are shot die.


You cannot kill that wich isn't alive:smallwink:

Now more seriously, did the daleks ever faced robots or nonliving enemies?

Zain
2009-07-01, 04:20 PM
yes but to "Die" it has to be live in first place, Necrons have no organs, no blood, and have a tendency to get back up again, even if hit if a anti-tank laser... Then again, the daleks might make a new weapon to fight the necrons with....

coarse they are all owed by a E.M.P, so its all good:smallbiggrin:

lisiecki
2009-07-01, 04:23 PM
yes but to "Die" it has to be live in first place, Necrons have no organs, no blood, and have a tendency to get back up again, even if hit if a anti-tank laser... Then again, the daleks might make a new weapon to fight the necrons with....

coarse they are all owed by a E.M.P, so its all good:smallbiggrin:

LoL fair enough.
but they "die" as is approprate for there Race.
To the best of my memory they have killed more than a few robots.

So perhaps i should say "things that are shot by the death ray, cease to function"

is that any better?

chiasaur11
2009-07-01, 04:26 PM
You cannot kill that wich isn't alive

The works of a certain Mr. Williams, Ashley disagree with you sir.

lisiecki
2009-07-01, 04:29 PM
The works of a certain Mr. Williams, Ashley disagree with you sir.

And Necrons ARE killed by one shot from a laz cannon, not to hard to think that ANY sort of really, really strong energy weapon could kill them

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 04:29 PM
coarse they are all owed by a E.M.P, so its all good:smallbiggrin:

Silly living one. You really think we the chosen of the C'tans duse something as primitive as silicon circuits? I would explain the advanced technology we use so you could gap in awe at our genius, but you would die of old age before grasping the most simple basics.:smallcool:

Mr.Silver
2009-07-01, 05:22 PM
I really have no idea how the DDR works, or what it's supposed to do. However, given how long they've been around and their high tech level, I'm sure they could just build some lasers or rockets if necessary. Of course, if they first needed to do that, the Necrons would have an initial advantage, which could bring them far together with their superior numbers.

The standard Dalek weapon is perfectly capable of damaging non-living/inorganic structures (in the finale of the first new series a small group of Daleks destroy the reinforced window on a space station). I have no doubt they can harm and destroy Necron warriors. The downside of course is that permentantly taking a necron out of action is extremely difficult, if not impossible (due to that whole teleport-repair thing) and there's no way the DDR is going to be able to do that.

Guancyto
2009-07-01, 06:11 PM
It's rocket tag.

The Daleks are good enough at time travel to have staged an entire war using it, and won such that many of their opponents simply never existed.

Necrons are tough and all, but they can't match that without use of C'tan. It boils down to "do the Necrons have their I Win Button? If not, they die horribly. If so, they win by virtue of Having an I Win Button."

DamnedIrishman
2009-07-01, 06:16 PM
It's rocket tag.

The Daleks are good enough at time travel to have staged an entire war using it, and won such that many of their opponents simply never existed.

Necrons are tough and all, but they can't match that without use of C'tan. It boils down to "do the Necrons have their I Win Button? If not, they die horribly. If so, they win by virtue of Having an I Win Button."

To be perfectly fair, you might as well describe the Dalek's time-travel technology as an "I Win Button" if you're going to describe the C'tan in the same way.

Maybe a better question would be: who would win in a fight war between the fully-awakened Necron empire (without the C'tan) and the Dalek Empire in it's heyday (without time-travel)?

Kyouhen
2009-07-01, 06:23 PM
To be perfectly fair, you might as well describe the Dalek's time-travel technology as an "I Win Button" if you're going to describe the C'tan in the same way.

Maybe a better question would be: who would win in a fight war between the fully-awakened Necron empire (without the C'tan) and the Dalek Empire in it's heyday (without time-travel)?

I'd say Necrons. They were the masters of the physical world at their peak. Let's not forget that they had lifespans of maybe 30 years and were still able to advance far enough technologically to wage war against gods.

shadzar
2009-07-01, 06:31 PM
The Daleks survived being attacked by the TARDIS itself, and Necrons can be taken down by Imperial Guardsmen, or worse...Tau.

So Daleks win hands down. Do not roll dice. Do not attempt to get back up.

Zain
2009-07-01, 06:57 PM
And Necrons ARE killed by one shot from a laz cannon, not to hard to think that ANY sort of really, really strong energy weapon could kill them

case and point, the resurrection orb/tomb spider lets then get back up anyway...

Guancyto
2009-07-01, 06:58 PM
To be perfectly fair, you might as well describe the Dalek's time-travel technology as an "I Win Button" if you're going to describe the C'tan in the same way.

It definitely is. That's why you need one of your own to match it. It's just that the Necrons' I Win Button isn't something you can properly count on, but it's one that may overrule the Daleks' I Win Button.

Overwhelming victory or no prayer whatsoever.

comicshorse
2009-07-01, 07:06 PM
Now more seriously, did the daleks ever faced robots or nonliving enemies?

The Daleks fought and won a huge war against the robot race, the Movellans. So actually I'd think robot killing is one of the things they've had chance to get really good at

Zain
2009-07-01, 07:07 PM
the C'tan could just go into the Daleks time-travel machine and shut it down, because the machine spirit is a C'tan!

The C'tan can just control the Daleks then we're relay gona die

Yulian
2009-07-01, 11:57 PM
The Necrons. You see, all they have to do is climb some stairs, and...


No, no Avilan, it was

EL-E-VATE!

Daleks can fly. In space.

Eldan, the heavy Special Weapons Daleks "abominations" should have little trouble taking on even Destroyers.

But I can see two types of Necron that could potentially give a Dalek some trouble.

I wonder if Paraiahs can do anything psyker-like to the insanely (and insane) advanced mind of the Kaled mutant within the casing?

Wraiths can phase through solid matter and have no ranged weapons. Note we've seen Daleks blinded by advanced projectiles. But the Necron gauss weapons are EM weapons, which a Dalek should shrug off, as we've seen them utterly laugh off any energy weapons they're hit with that doesn't come from another Dalek's gunstick.

I don't know about a Staff of Light, though. That might work. But I would say a Warscythe should be able to cut into Dalekanium, since it also cuts through energy fields.

- Yulian

Ganurath
2009-07-02, 12:15 AM
"EXTERMINATE!"

"I... Concur..."

*Necrons release Wraiths*

*Wraiths "release" Daleks*

*Void Dragon gets new toys*

Ricky S
2009-07-02, 04:32 AM
I seriously reckon the necrons would win. They are near indestructable. Have you read the fluff on necrons??? They have tombships the size of planets and basically have planet sized gauss weapons sure the daleks are strong but the necrons are as well. They have numbers they are like the scary version of terminators and thats saying something. Even if the daleks are better equipped sheer numbers would eventually overwhelm them. That brings me to another thing if sheer numbers could take them on do you think the tyranids would ever be able to take down the daleks? considering that if every bullet, and lazshot in the imperium killed 1 tyranid there would still be 100 more to each of those shots? So could the daleks beat an near infinite tide of bugs?

Mr.Silver
2009-07-02, 04:47 AM
Eldan, the heavy Special Weapons Daleks "abominations" should have little trouble taking on even Destroyers.
Which is great and all, but you can't permenantly put a necron down. They're immortal. Once a Dalek dies, on the other hand, it stays dead

But the Necron gauss weapons are EM weapons, which a Dalek should shrug off, as we've seen them utterly laugh off any energy weapons they're hit with that doesn't come from another Dalek's gunstick.
To my knowledge, nothing in the Whoniverse uses anything comparible to Gauss. Gauss by the way does not shoot blasts of energy, it strips it's target apart on a molecular level. Enough concentrated Gauss fire can damage just about any substance, and some guns have a lot more power. Heavy Destroyers, for example, pack enough firepower to rip Land Raiders apart. While Daleks could probably resist a lot of warrior fire, eventually the tipping point is going to be reached and when that happens Daleks die.

KjeldorMage
2009-07-02, 05:25 AM
I don't watch much Dr. Who but the last episode I saw, the Doctor (who looks like some sort of weird gumby in this incarnation) Goes back to a hooverville and kills the last three remaining Daleks.

So the Daleks are all gone. Hence the Necrons have nothing to fight.


Also the Dalek death ray seems to be weak at best. To me it seems as if it would be akin to a wide ranged lasgun blast.

The Necrons would win in a massacre.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-02, 05:27 AM
The Dalek's 'I win' button is counterproductive, because the necrons are stronger the further back they go. Sure they can go forward in time, but that won't accomplish anything either.

The Necron's 'I win' button is almost literally an 'I win' button. :smalltongue:
Even worse is that people seem to forget that Necron Lords are pretty much demigods in their own right and as long as they're around, Daleks do not stand a chance. I would not be very suprised if the Necron Lord was very resistant to DDRs

And another 'I win' button are Necron Scarab Swarms. swarms of tiny flying robots with a disruptor field. It works something like this. 'Scarabs fall every dalek dies.'

Destro_Yersul
2009-07-02, 05:56 AM
A quick look around the interwebs turns up an answer to the question 'What do DDRs actually do?'

Apparently, they scramble internal organs. Or, in the case of robots, circuitry. The problem with trying that on Necrons is, of course, that they can fix that.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-02, 06:04 AM
A quick look around the interwebs turns up an answer to the question 'What do DDRs actually do?'

Apparently, they scramble internal organs. Or, in the case of robots, circuitry. The problem with trying that on Necrons is, of course, that they can fix that.

:smalleek:
this isn't a match, it's a massacre!

Starscream
2009-07-02, 10:24 AM
So the Daleks are all gone. Hence the Necrons have nothing to fight.

Yeah, they've gone extinct pretty much every time they've appeared in the new series. That hasn't stopped that from returning. By the series 4 finale they have an entire army again.

Kyouhen
2009-07-02, 10:40 AM
To my knowledge, nothing in the Whoniverse uses anything comparible to Gauss. Gauss by the way does not shoot blasts of energy, it strips it's target apart on a molecular level. Enough concentrated Gauss fire can damage just about any substance, and some guns have a lot more power. Heavy Destroyers, for example, pack enough firepower to rip Land Raiders apart. While Daleks could probably resist a lot of warrior fire, eventually the tipping point is going to be reached and when that happens Daleks die.

To be more specific, I believe the Gauss weapons pull the molecules of the target into the weapon. Like some sort of twisted tractor beam. That's why the basic warrior's weapon is called the Gauss Flayer, because of how it looks when it strips away the target layer by layer. :smalltongue:

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-02, 04:54 PM
Unless I'm wrong, the Necrons are not invincible, no? Given that, unless 40k has changed greatly, Imperial Guard (who are, as I recall, basically conscripts with basic weapons) can actually hurt Necrons, right? (Granted in some number, but still.) Given that, unless every 40k game (tabletop or otherwise) lies about the Necron's power (understating it to bring it down to make a playable game), I don't think the Necrons could be massecring the Daleks.

(Also, from the sounds of it Necron Guass weaponry is basically not dissimilar to a disintigrator or a disruptor, not that uncommon in sci-fi; hard to believe given the Dalek's experience they wouldn't have come across something like it before. By-the-by, it's a strange use of 'gauss' since that's normally associated with railgun weaponry.)

Given a lone Dalek is capable of tackling a large number of grunts (even with modest energy weapons), I'd say they weren't much different (maybe slightly to significantly better) than an individual Necron. I'm not sure what the current 40k rules have it, but I'm guessing a Necron is not much more powerful than a Space Marine, yes? And I certainly don't believe a Space Marine is an order of magnitude better than a Dalek. (I'd say Space Marines would be closer to Cybermen - maybe - give or take a bit. I think you could argure that one either way, actually.) Point I'm getting at, though, is that if Imperial Guard can concievably defeat the Necrons (at least locally) then the Daleks certainly can. Unless someone really wants to try and argue Imperial goon- er Guard are better than the Daleks...? (I mean come, on Imperial Goon, er Guards are practically every disposable goon in Doctor Who!)

So I reckon in terms of overall infantry to...infantry, Daleks and Necrons would be about even. I suspect the advantage of the Dalek's superior technical knowledge (from they're time travel-capable and the fact they are all of genius intellect, something that can't be said for the Necrons) would be balanced out by the Necron's demi-gods supernatural gubbins. I think it entirely possible the Daleks could come up with some sort of space-time wibbly thing capable of knobbling a deity (after all, the last time they created a space-time wibbly thing it express purpose was to destroy the entire of reality, and they teleported whole planets to make it!) Whether they managed to use it successfully (or more than once) is another matter. Still, the point is, they would pose a concievable threat to the C'Tan, enough to make the latter not an 'I win'.

In terms of space combat, I'd be inclined to favour the Daleks, since they do have the technological advantage and that matters more in starship combat than anywhere else.

As usual, though, numbers are the real issue, and how many resoucres can be brought to bear. The Necrons don't have - unless I'm mistaken - inter-galactic and inter-temporal resources, so the Daleks could beliveably have supply bases simply out of their reach. From those, they could launch attritional attacks and slowly whittle the Necrons away. (And there's also the possibility the Daleks might start planet-busting as well.)

Overall, I'd say the battle would be very hard fought and likely drawn out if both started with reasonably comparable resources. (I.e within a local system of several or both empires at their height.) I'd likely say the Daleks would win out eventually, but it'd be a close thing, close enough I'd not place bets without some very specific information!

Otherwise, the Necrons would probably eventually force the Daleks to seek greener pastures through weight of numbers. (Afterall, the Daleks have all of space-time to fiddle with; at some point enough local casualties would render it cost ineffective for whatever reason they were after.) Neither is likely to completely destroy the other, I think.



Actually, what would most likely happen is the Necrons and Daleks would be fighting each other over some critical doohickey mcguffin on a planet of Imperial Go- er Guards, then the Doctor would show up and get captured by the Empire, then befriend them and, with the 'help' (i.e. body count) of the local humans, handily defeat both with his sonic screwdriver and said doohickey (probably sending some sort of space-time wibbly thing to knobble both sides) and then bugger off in the TARDIS.

Sadly, even combined, Dalek and Necron Awesome is no match for the Doctor's Plot Armour and Plot Hax Win buttons...

Emperor Ing
2009-07-02, 05:12 PM
the main problem with using game mechanics is that necrons got ridiculously nerfed just to make 'em beatable.
Individual-wise, Necrons are masses of living metal with guns that can destroy tanks. A steampunk R2 D2 ripoff (or the other way around :smalltongue:) that can't aim its gun diagonally shouldn't be too difficult. The DDR weapon, which apparently damages internal organs, sounds like something that a being that can restore itself from being blown to pieces would be quite resistant to.

And if the necrons bring in a Monolith...well...lets just say there's a good reason they haven't been mentioned much. :smallbiggrin:

Mr.Silver
2009-07-02, 07:30 PM
In terms of space combat, I'd be inclined to favour the Daleks, since they do have the technological advantage and that matters more in starship combat than anywhere else.
I'd be inclined to say you're wrong here. Tech-wise, necrons are insanely advanced and this really shows in their ships. To give some idea of how much so, Necron ships can reach FTL simply by accelerating. Not warping, not hyperdrives, accelerating (yes, I'm aware that according to physics this is impossible, a lot of necron tech is meant to be as that's kind of the point). So not only are we talking a serious manouverability advantange but you have to factor that necron ships are (like their Monoliths) living metal, which makes them incredibly durable and they pack an awful lot of firepower. IIRC, these larger ships are also perfectly capable of teleporting attack squads onto enemy ships regardless of whatever shield said ships have. I'd agree with you mostly on the infantry part (although necron elite troops are significantly tougher than standard warriors) but as I said you're seriously underestimating just how lethal they are in space combat.



As usual, though, numbers are the real issue, and how many resoucres can be brought to bear. The Necrons don't have - unless I'm mistaken - inter-galactic and inter-temporal resources, so the Daleks could beliveably have supply bases simply out of their reach. From those, they could launch attritional attacks and slowly whittle the Necrons away. (And there's also the possibility the Daleks might start planet-busting as well.)
You can't whittle necrons away without planet busting. They're immortal. It takes an awful lot of pounding to break a necron warrior's initial self repair system and even then you still have the effects of Monoliths, Tomb Spyders and Lords. Even assuming even those aren't able to bring it back, said warrior then phases out to the nearest tomb world where they're simply rebuilt over a slightly longer period then they're back in with the next attack squad. Anything short of atomising them is at best a short term stop-gap and even then there's a fair chance that they'd phase out before that rendered them utterly unrepairable.
On top of this, getting Necrons into a battle of attrition is actually very difficult. Despite their durability, it's very rare that they fight to the last man. Generally, is it looks like they aren't going to do it, they'll just retreat, repair and then teleport out somewhere else soon afterwoods. The only way to make your victories count long term you have to destroy planets and tomb ships. Tomb Worlds tend to be very heavily defended and seriously going after them will probably you into contact with the aforementioned Necron fleets. It's also a very good way to get yourself noticed by the C'Tan, which believe me you don't want.


Overall, I'd say the battle would be very hard fought and likely drawn out if both started with reasonably comparable resources. (I.e within a local system of several or both empires at their height.) I'd likely say the Daleks would win out eventually, but it'd be a close thing, close enough I'd not place bets without some very specific information!

No, barring some unseen awesome superweapon this is probably going to be a necron victory, although it would take them a while.

As I mentioned in another thread, the Necrons are at the top end of the 40k spectrum. They may well actually be the top, debate is usually split between them or the tyranids in terms of who has top spot.



Actually, what would most likely happen is the Necrons and Daleks would be fighting each other over some critical doohickey mcguffin on a planet of Imperial Go- er Guards, then the Doctor would show up and get captured by the Empire, then befriend them and, with the 'help' (i.e. body count) of the local humans, handily defeat both with his sonic screwdriver and said doohickey (probably sending some sort of space-time wibbly thing to knobble both sides) and then bugger off in the TARDIS.

Sadly, even combined, Dalek and Necron Awesome is no match for the Doctor's Plot Armour and Plot Hax Win buttons...

Oh yes, quite definitely.

comicshorse
2009-07-02, 07:37 PM
(Also, from the sounds of it Necron Guass weaponry is basically not dissimilar to a disintigrator or a disruptor, not that uncommon in sci-fi; hard to believe given the Dalek's experience they wouldn't have come across something like it before.

In a few Who episodes its showed that the Daleks have equipped their Ogron troopers with Disruptors. This indicated two things to me.
(1) Dalek weapons are better than Disruptors
(2) Disruptors don't work on Daleks

Mr.Silver
2009-07-02, 08:04 PM
In a few Who episodes its showed that the Daleks have equipped their Ogron troopers with Disruptors. This indicated two things to me.
(1) Dalek weapons are better than Disruptors
(2) Disruptors don't work on Daleks

Neither of which means much in regard to Necron Gauss.

comicshorse
2009-07-02, 08:05 PM
Er... I thought the Necron Gauss wepons were effectively disruptors ?

Zain
2009-07-02, 11:10 PM
not really, Gauss weapons destroy the target by strip apart the molecules...
i thought disruptors just messed with them, not moved them...

Dervag
2009-07-03, 01:15 AM
Anything short of atomising them is at best a short term stop-gap and even then there's a fair chance that they'd phase out before that rendered them utterly unrepairable.Of course, if you can atomize them... the metal dies.:smallamused:

For the Daleks, this is not impossible- but the level of firepower involved is so great as to be almost impossible to compare. Necron gauss weapons can gut tanks- even the small arms can do it, at least in theory. Dalek disintegrators are very effective; how much do we know about their antiarmor capabilities?


On top of this, getting Necrons into a battle of attrition is actually very difficult. Despite their durability, it's very rare that they fight to the last man. Generally, is it looks like they aren't going to do it, they'll just retreat, repair and then teleport out somewhere else soon afterwoods. The only way to make your victories count long term you have to destroy planets and tomb ships. Tomb Worlds tend to be very heavily defended and seriously going after them will probably you into contact with the aforementioned Necron fleets. It's also a very good way to get yourself noticed by the C'Tan, which believe me you don't want.Moreover, you have to find the Tomb Worlds, which is not a trivial challenge. Because the Necron teleport all over the place, it's impossible to trace their combat groups back to their homeworld.


Er... I thought the Necron Gauss wepons were effectively disruptors ?They could be really good disruptors.

I mean, think about the reasoning you're using here. "Ogron disruptors are weak by Dalek standards. Gauss weapons are disruptors. Therefore, Gauss weapons are weak by Dalek standards."

Taking for granted that (1) is true, (2) is not necessarily true, and (3) doesn't follow from (1) and (2). For example:
-Gauss weapons might be very different from Ogron disruptors, and just happen to have a similar effect.
-The Daleks might have specifically gone out of their way to nerf the Ogron disruptors, to keep them from becoming a threat.
-The Necrons might be better at building disruptors than the Daleks, to the point where Necron "disruptors" (gauss weapons) are far more powerful and can threaten Daleks.

Kyouhen
2009-07-03, 01:43 AM
They could be really good disruptors.

I mean, think about the reasoning you're using here. "Ogron disruptors are weak by Dalek standards. Gauss weapons are disruptors. Therefore, Gauss weapons are weak by Dalek standards."

Taking for granted that (1) is true, (2) is not necessarily true, and (3) doesn't follow from (1) and (2). For example:
-Gauss weapons might be very different from Ogron disruptors, and just happen to have a similar effect.
-The Daleks might have specifically gone out of their way to nerf the Ogron disruptors, to keep them from becoming a threat.
-The Necrons might be better at building disruptors than the Daleks, to the point where Necron "disruptors" (gauss weapons) are far more powerful and can threaten Daleks.

Key thing to remember here is, as far as I know, Gauss weapons are basically molecular magnets. The molecules in direct contact with the beam are drawn into the gun. As previously mentioned, it doesn't 'disrupt' anything. It strips it apart layer by layer on a molecular level. It pulls the molecules somewhere you're never getting them back from.

Revlid
2009-07-03, 04:42 AM
The Daleks activate the reality bomb. They win.

Alternatively, the Daleks activate the reality bomb, aimed only at the 40k galaxy. They win, with planets to spare.

The Daleks are ridiculously advanced. They can tow planets from galaxy to galaxy, time travel, and each one is autonomous and capable of engineering and scientific feats almost beyond human comprehension.

I loves my Necrons, I really does, but their only advantage here are the C'tan.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-03, 06:02 AM
the main problem with using game mechanics is that necrons got ridiculously nerfed just to make 'em beatable.
Individual-wise, Necrons are masses of living metal with guns that can destroy tanks. A steampunk R2 D2 ripoff (or the other way around :smalltongue:) that can't aim its gun diagonally shouldn't be too difficult. The DDR weapon, which apparently damages internal organs, sounds like something that a being that can restore itself from being blown to pieces would be quite resistant to.

And if the necrons bring in a Monolith...well...lets just say there's a good reason they haven't been mentioned much. :smallbiggrin:

I hate to tell you, but infantry killing tanks is not a noteworthy achivement. It's a natural occurance of warfare. If we've leaving aside the tabletop rules, then, then yes, I can easily see Necrons taking out tanks - with only slightly more ease than the Imperial Guard with the appropriate anti-armour weapons (or modern infantry or WW2 infantry or...). The Necrons are just advanced enough to be able to do that with their regular weapons. That's not really all that impressive. It's powerful, granted, but it's not that powerful. Outside of the 40k rules (and far too many other game rules as well) vehicles are really not the kings of battle and in fact are usually very vulernable to infantry.

I'm not saying the Necrons couldn't hurt the Daleks - I'm sure they could - but I think it far more likely to be an even match, with one, maybe two-shot kills from both sides.


not really, Gauss weapons destroy the target by strip apart the molecules...
i thought disruptors just messed with them, not moved them...

Depends on the disruptor/disintegrator. The two often have similar effects, in that they destroy the target at a small level, sometimes (usually but not exclusively disinitegrators or partical accelerators) down to a sub-atomic level.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't really matter what you do with the molecules, because the effect is going to be destructive. You can't actually get 'more dead' than 'dead'.

The point I was making, though, was that this sort of weapon is hardly uncommon in sci-fi in general - even relatively low-tech places - so it would entirely unreasonable to say the Daleks would be utterly unprotected against it, given their experience across, y'know, all time and space and beyond.

From the 40k wiki, is says gauss weapons are asymmetric linear accelerators (which would explain why they are 'gauss') which use electromagnetic energy to disrupt atomic bonds. So, pretty much a standard definition for particle accelerator or disruptor/disintegrator.

(Interestingly, though if it uses electromagnetic energy, it raises the worrying spectre of the being relatively easy to screen against (as EM always seems to be easy to scramble). At least certainly as far as migitating the effect instead of outright blocking it.)

Dalek weaponry:




Physical effects

As stated above, the gunstick was an energy weapon. (DW: The Five Doctors) The discharge beam appeared blue and had a "negative effect". On occasion this exposed the skeletal structure of the victim.

Early sources of information about the Daleks described being hit by the weapon as being akin to being struck by lightning, suggesting the energy involved was roughly analogous to an electric charge. Sometimes victims of the weapons appeared charred. (DW: The Daleks' Master Plan)

However, Rachel Jensen, examining the body of a Human killed by the discharge of a Renegade Dalek's gunstick during the Shoreditch Incident said the cause of death appeared to her to be "massive internal disruption" (paraphrased by the Doctor as "his insides were scrambled") which may suggest a different kind of weapon had been used on this occasion. (DW: Remembrance of the Daleks) She later theorised that they might be using plasma weapons. (DW: Remembrance of the Daleks (novelisation))

The Dalek Factions present in the area at this time were using what appeared to be slightly different weapons, in that they fired bolts of energy rather than beams (and the weapons of the Imperial Daleks discharged yellow-orange bolts rather than blue). (DW: Remembrance of the Daleks)
During the massacre inside the GeoComTex Vault, the Dalek involved was able to use conductive substances such as metal and water to considerably extend the effect of its gunstick, strongly suggesting that these beams also possessed electrical properties. (DW: Dalek)

However, on a number of occasions Daleks showed a definite vulnerability to the weapons of their own kind. (DW: The Evil of the Daleks, Planet of the Daleks, Resurrection of the Daleks, Revelation of the Daleks, Remembrance of the Daleks, Evolution of the Daleks) As Daleks have been observed being exposed to extremely high voltage electricity and suffering only superficial damage (DW: Death to the Daleks) it therefore seems unlikely the weapon's effect is purely electrical. The fact that the beam can be reflected by a mirrored surface (see weaknesses, below) is also evidence against the purely electrical theory.

It is possible to survive a gunstick blast, as less than full exposure to the beam does not always kill. For example, when the Tenth Doctor was hit by only half of a gunstick blast, he survived by (almost) regenerating. (DW: The Stolen Earth / Journey's End)

[edit] Settings

This weapon had a non-lethal setting which paralysed the target. The Daleks said that repeated exposure to the paralysis effect would result in permanent neural damage(DW: The Daleks). At full power the gun stick can totally disintigrate the victim (NSA: Prisoner of the Daleks).

Effective Against

Humanoids: Kills with a single shot and may expose the skeleton for a few seconds. (DW: Genesis of the Daleks) onward

Cybus-Cybermen: Kills with a single shot and destroys inner mechanics as seen during the Battle of Canary Wharf. (DW: Doomsday)

Droids: Destroys with a single shot and has been known to literally blow them apart as seen during the battle of the Gamestation. (DW: The Parting of the Ways)

Daleks: Can blow off the top half of the mutant's armour. (DW: The Daleks, The Five Doctors, Evolution of the Daleks and The Evil of the Daleks)
Retrieved from "http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gunstick"

From that information, I think it impossible to say that the Daleks couldn't kill the Necrons with their weapons. Worst case, and I mean, absolutely bottom line, they'd have to use it at full power, which would possibly (and even then I'm not sure) reduce their combat endurance after extended usage. The Necrons, however, aren't going to regenerate from having their bodies obliterated anymore than the Daleks are.




Also from the same wiki, it is apparent the Daleks starships carried planet-busting missiles as standard and their smaller ships had weapons that "could melt whole continents." So clearly planet-busting was something they were geared up to do as a matter of course. Actually, I guess Earth is lucky the Daleks just wanted to conquor it over the years...


I'd be inclined to say you're wrong here. Tech-wise, necrons are insanely advanced and this really shows in their ships. To give some idea of how much so, Necron ships can reach FTL simply by accelerating. Not warping, not hyperdrives, accelerating (yes, I'm aware that according to physics this is impossible, a lot of necron tech is meant to be as that's kind of the point). So not only are we talking a serious manouverability advantange but you have to factor that necron ships are (like their Monoliths) living metal, which makes them incredibly durable and they pack an awful lot of firepower. IIRC, these larger ships are also perfectly capable of teleporting attack squads onto enemy ships regardless of whatever shield said ships have. I'd agree with you mostly on the infantry part (although necron elite troops are significantly tougher than standard warriors) but as I said you're seriously underestimating just how lethal they are in space combat.

Reaching FTL by accelerating is impressive,is a goodly bit beyond most sci-fi techs. But it's probably not outside the reach of the Daleks, since really, all you need a time-dilation device and you're golden! The important point is that it is also 'slower' than the Daleks ability to transit between galaxies and time itself. We don't know much about Dalek spacecraft, but it's not unreasonale to assume that in addition to the planet-busting weapons their main weapons would be at least as destructive as their Dalek guns against enemy spacecraft, so being made of living metal isn't going to be overly helpful. It might, I'll grant you, be closer than I originally said.



The Necrons might be technologically/magically (etc) advanced, but there is simply no way they are as advanced as the Daleks. Because if they were, they'd have already won and the 40k universe already be dead. I mean, seriously, the Daleks teleport planets and built a bomb that would have destroyed the entire of Reality except for themselves. That's kinda a bit beyond what even the C'Tan are capable of, right? (Otherwise, why haven't they done it already?)

40k has always struck me as being a fairly-low tech, if grandiose, universe. They are quite capable in some technological areas and woefully low-tech in others. (In fact, having it high tech would kind of destroy most of the gritty/messiness of 40k). The Necrons are top of the tree, but the tree, as they say, isn't all that high. But it's also not so low the Daleks could run totally rampant over them (Reality bomb excluded).

I stand by the fact that it would be actually a largely even fight, with a slight (technologically-based) advantage to the Daleks, maybe balanced out by superior numbers on the part of the Necrons, depending on the scale of the engagement.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 06:31 AM
I hate to tell you, but infantry killing tanks is not a noteworthy achivement. It's a natural occurance of warfare. If we've leaving aside the tabletop rules, then, then yes, I can easily see Necrons taking out tanks - with only slightly more ease than the Imperial Guard with the appropriate anti-armour weapons (or modern infantry or WW2 infantry or...). The Necrons are just advanced enough to be able to do that with their regular weapons. That's not really all that impressive. It's powerful, granted, but it's not that powerful. Outside of the 40k rules (and far too many other game rules as well) vehicles are really not the kings of battle and in fact are usually very vulernable to infantry.
Keep in mind the WEAKEST NECRON WEAPON can destroy a tank. And there are more than 5 of them on the battle field at once


I'm not saying the Necrons couldn't hurt the Daleks - I'm sure they could - but I think it far more likely to be an even match, with one, maybe two-shot kills from both sides.
Necrons are masses of living metal. If they can recover from being blown to bits, im sure they can recover from having their insides scrambled. Hell they even might be immune to their weapons. It's not an even match, its like pitting 500 Kobolds against 500 20th level Wizards



Depends on the disruptor/disintegrator. The two often have similar effects, in that they destroy the target at a small level, sometimes (usually but not exclusively disinitegrators or partical accelerators) down to a sub-atomic level.
Necron Gauss Guns don't make small holes, they vaporize the whole thing!



Ultimately, though, it doesn't really matter what you do with the molecules, because the effect is going to be destructive. You can't actually get 'more dead' than 'dead'.
Necrons get right up from being dead all the time, even in the middle of the battlefield.


The point I was making, though, was that this sort of weapon is hardly uncommon in sci-fi in general - even relatively low-tech places - so it would entirely unreasonable to say the Daleks would be utterly unprotected against it, given their experience across, y'know, all time and space and beyond.
Because the necrons are stronger in the past, and going into the future does nothing, time travel really can't help the Daleks. If you think they can give them infinite reinforcements, then there's the possibility that one dalek destroyed causes dozen of others to die on the spot as well.
Let me put it this way, if an 800 year old definitely-not-a-human can genocide them, i'm pretty sure machines whom have wiped the galaxy of sentient life time after time again would be absolutely no problem. This isn't a match, its a massacre!


From the 40k wiki, is says gauss weapons are asymmetric linear accelerators (which would explain why they are 'gauss') which use electromagnetic energy to disrupt atomic bonds. So, pretty much a standard definition for particle accelerator or disruptor/disintegrator.
I'm the only one that's willing to tell it like it is. They vaporize on hit. They're nonmagical Disintegrate spells.



From that information, I think it impossible to say that the Daleks couldn't kill the Necrons with their weapons. Worst case, and I mean, absolutely bottom line, they'd have to use it at full power, which would possibly (and even then I'm not sure) reduce their combat endurance after extended usage. The Necrons, however, aren't going to regenerate from having their bodies obliterated anymore than the Daleks are.
They regenerate from being oblitherated like...all the time. :smalltongue:



Also from the same wiki, it is apparent the Daleks starships carried planet-busting missiles as standard and their smaller ships had weapons that "could melt whole continents." So clearly planet-busting was something they were geared up to do as a matter of course. Actually, I guess Earth is lucky the Daleks just wanted to conquor it over the years...[quote]
And Necrons can tear frickin' stars apart. I would not be suprised if they could vaporize those puny ships. :P



[QUOTE=Aotrs Commander;6419763]Reaching FTL by accelerating is impressive,is a goodly bit beyond most sci-fi techs. But it's probably not outside the reach of the Daleks, since really, all you need a time-dilation device and you're golden! The important point is that it is also 'slower' than the Daleks ability to transit between galaxies and time itself. We don't know much about Dalek spacecraft, but it's not unreasonale to assume that in addition to the planet-busting weapons their main weapons would be at least as destructive as their Dalek guns against enemy spacecraft, so being made of living metal isn't going to be overly helpful. It might, I'll grant you, be closer than I originally said.
Teleportation > FTL speeds




The Necrons might be technologically/magically (etc) advanced, but there is simply no way they are as advanced as the Daleks. Because if they were, they'd have already won and the 40k universe already be dead. I mean, seriously, the Daleks teleport planets and built a bomb that would have destroyed the entire of Reality except for themselves. That's kinda a bit beyond what even the C'Tan are capable of, right? (Otherwise, why haven't they done it already?)[quote]
1) Necrons are completely nonmagical. It's all technology
2) WHY do they need a weapon that can do that?
3) C'Tan would make that bomb to *poof* :smalltongue: Once they get involved it's pretty much "Rocks Fall Daleks Die"

[QUOTE=Aotrs Commander;6419763]40k has always struck me as being a fairly-low tech, if grandiose, universe. They are quite capable in some technological areas and woefully low-tech in others. (In fact, having it high tech would kind of destroy most of the gritty/messiness of 40k). The Necrons are top of the tree, but the tree, as they say, isn't all that high. But it's also not so low the Daleks could run totally rampant over them (Reality bomb excluded).
If they got wiped out by invading one planet of ordinary humans....i'm pretty sure the Astartes actually wouldn't have much trouble with them. Hell I actually wouldn't be suprised to see a Dalek destroyed by one Lascannon beam.


I stand by the fact that it would be actually a largely even fight, with a slight (technologically-based) advantage to the Daleks, maybe balanced out by superior numbers on the part of the Necrons, depending on the scale of the engagement.
Tech advantage? If they can teleport planets, why don't they teleport their individual soldiers? Why don't they have better guns? Why do they move so damn slowly? Let me finish by saying this


Necrons can easily get back on their feet from being Oblitherated, and it would not suprise me if the DDR at normal power level had no effect on the necron warriors at all. Gauss weapons vaporize tanks while ignoring armor and shielding. One shot from the gauss weapon and suddenly there is a pile of dust where there was a Dalek. As mentioned before, daleks don't get back up from the dead, they stay dead. Necrons get back up all the time. Look, it's NOT an even fight. It's a friggin' massacre.

Selrahc
2009-07-03, 06:45 AM
The Necrons might be technologically/magically (etc) advanced, but there is simply no way they are as advanced as the Daleks. Because if they were, they'd have already won and the 40k universe already be dead. I mean, seriously, the Daleks teleport planets and built a bomb that would have destroyed the entire of Reality except for themselves. That's kinda a bit beyond what even the C'Tan are capable of, right? (Otherwise, why haven't they done it already?)

The C'Tan don't want to destroy reality. They're basically junkies, and the material universe is their drug of choice. They do want to destroy the warp, and once they've woken up it looks like they'll be eminently capable of doing that.

I assume in this thread that before the time travel is brought into account we are talking about the Necrons at their best. The time when they were united and the C'Tan hadn't fallen prey to squabbling and infighting. At that time they were fighting gods. The Old Ones were capable of making species on the fly, terraforming and creating planets as well as destroying them, hell they could even create whole new dimensions, all in all rather reminiscent of the Galifreyans in their prime. The Necrons and the C'Tan managed to beat them. Essentially they won their Time War.



40k has always struck me as being a fairly-low tech, if grandiose, universe. They are quite capable in some technological areas and woefully low-tech in others. (In fact, having it high tech would kind of destroy most of the gritty/messiness of 40k). The Necrons are top of the tree, but the tree, as they say, isn't all that high. But it's also not so low the Daleks could run totally rampant over them (Reality bomb excluded).

There are only two real areas to be concerned about in a versus thread. War technology and the ability to get troops into the field. 40K generally is right up there on the first but falls down a bit on the second. The Necrons don't have that problem and are pretty top tier sci fi powers.

They can't deal with time travel though. And being top tier powers only means that they can fight the Daleks, not that they would necessarily win.


Tech advantage? If they can teleport planets, why don't they teleport their individual soldiers? Why don't they have better guns? Why do they move so damn slowly? Let me finish by saying this

Firstly: The Daleks do teleport their soldiers around.
Secondly: The Daleks on Doctor Who have never shot something that didn't actually instantly die. And while the Necrons gauss weaponry *can* kill a tank, it isn't all that likely to. Even in the fluff an ordinary(Albeit armoured) human can survive shots from their guns. The Necron guns are going to have a chance to hurt the Daleks, but I would say the Daleks give better guns to their troops.
Thirdly: Daleks don't actually move all that slowly when they need to be speedy... The latest tv appearances have seen them flying around the planet at high speeds.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 06:55 AM
They can't deal with time travel though. And being top tier powers only means that they can fight the Daleks, not that they would necessarily win.

1) Personally the way I see it, time travel really isn't usable by the Daleks as a key advantage. if they go back in time and do something to change the future, they would not have had a reason to go back in time and fix it, so as a result, they couldn't have gone back in time and done anything. In other words, change the future and absolutely nothing happens.
2) Oh yeah, they would win. No question in my mind.

Oh and did I mention that their weapons ignore armor and shielding? That means that their energy shields which is pretty much all of their resistances, are completely useless.

Brother Oni
2009-07-03, 06:58 AM
Because the necrons are stronger in the past, and going into the future does nothing, time travel really can't help the Daleks.

Then you're simply not going back in time far enough.

The way you describe it, it'd be like trying to destroy the Imperium by going back to just before the Horus Heresy, when the Emperor and the Imperium was at its full might.

What's stopping them from going back to when Earth was simply an soup of primitive chemicals and basic organic compounds and eradicating humanity from there?

Time wars come in two flavours - the simple "troops in a different era, trying to blast each other to bits" and the much nastier "manipulation of causality to prevent the other side from even exisiting".

From what I know of the Necron fluff, what's stopping the Daleks from heading back to when they were still organic and setting themselves up as the Necron machine gods? Or heading back further and arranging for an extinction level meteor strike when the pre-metal necrons were still in the stone age?

Time travel is usually regarded as an 'I win' button, hence why most of the discussion here is disregarding it.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 07:02 AM
Then you're simply not going back in time far enough.

The way you describe it, it'd be like trying to destroy the Imperium by going back to just before the Horus Heresy, when the Emperor and the Imperium was at its full might.

What's stopping them from going back to when Earth was simply an soup of primitive chemicals and basic organic compounds and eradicating humanity from there?

Time wars come in two flavours - the simple "troops in a different era, trying to blast each other to bits" and the much nastier "manipulation of causality to prevent the other side from even exisiting".

From what I know of the Necron fluff, what's stopping the Daleks from heading back to when they were still organic and setting themselves up as the Necron machine gods? Or heading back further and arranging for an extinction level meteor strike when the pre-metal necrons were still in the stone age?

Time travel is usually regarded as an 'I win' button, hence why most of the discussion here is disregarding it.


1) Personally the way I see it, time travel really isn't usable by the Daleks as a key advantage. if they go back in time and do something to change the future, they would not have had a reason to go back in time and fix it, so as a result, they couldn't have gone back in time and done anything. In other words, change the future and absolutely nothing happens.


:smallconfused: defeat the necrontyr before they get a chance to exist. Suddenly there's no reason to go back in time and take them out in the first place. Congradulations, you just accomplished literally nothing.

Brother Oni
2009-07-03, 07:03 AM
1) Personally the way I see it, time travel really isn't usable by the Daleks as a key advantage. if they go back in time and do something to change the future, they would not have had a reason to go back in time and fix it, so as a result, they couldn't have gone back in time and done anything. In other words, change the future and absolutely nothing happens.

However because they didn't go into the past and do anything, the current future timeline remains, prompting them to go into the past to change it, etc, etc.

You have to draw the line somewhere when applying paradox theory, otherwise you end up in an eternally looping cycle of which the only result could a draw.

Brother Oni
2009-07-03, 07:08 AM
:smallconfused: defeat the necrontyr before they get a chance to exist. Suddenly there's no reason to go back in time and take them out in the first place. Congradulations, you just accomplished literally nothing.

In the Who universe, technology exists that can sustain such a paradox (the Master used it to allow the far off decendents of humanity to come back and subjugate Earth circa 21st century).

Whether the Daleks could build such a device (it was Timelord tech and required a TARDIS), is debatable.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 07:15 AM
Whether the Daleks could build such a device (it was Timelord tech and required a TARDIS), is debatable.

So what you're saying is that they don't have it.

And my theory about the results of a 'paradox' is that the dalek who wipes out the necrontyr in the uber-deep past believes themselves successful only to find themselves attacked by a Necron warrior.

Essentially, there are an infinite number of parralel universes, each identical to our own, except at different stages of the flow of time. 0.000001 seconds ago is a different universe than .000001 seconds later. You can go back 200000+? in the past, it won't do anything to the universe of 1 relative second later.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-03, 07:52 AM
I'm the only one that's willing to tell it like it is. They vaporize on hit. They're nonmagical Disintegrate spells.

What I'm reading of the source material would disagree with you. Even the most beneficant reading only described them as being able to punch a hole in a land raider (which is no different to an RPG or anti-tank weapon).


The C'Tan don't want to destroy reality. They're basically junkies, and the material universe is their drug of choice. They do want to destroy the warp, and once they've woken up it looks like they'll be eminently capable of doing that.

Fair enough. And good luck to them on that last task, actually. I find Chaos and the Warp to be terribly irritating. I have to say, the Necrons are the first decent bad guys 40k has ever thrown up. (Discounting the humour value of the Orks.)



Also, from reading, Necrons - and the C'Tan in particular - are apparently vulnerable to psychics. So, the Daleks have an advantage in that they're not quite too proud to use servitor races. I can see them engineering a whole race with the specific goal of making them psychic weapons to noble the Necrons. (Presumably just for the Doctor to free and turn on both sides, no doubt...)



That brings another point; given the Daleks penchant for 'wierd' technology, I don't find it hard to believe they might try creating some sort of device which could disrupt the Necron's teleportation (at least on a local level).

Really worrying query: what happens when a Dalek tries to absorb a Necron through touch to steal energy as they've sometimes been to do (E.g. "Dalek" of the first season of the newest series)? 'Cos the thought of self-replicating Daleks covered in living Dalekanium is not a happy one...

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-03, 07:53 AM
:smallconfused: defeat the necrontyr before they get a chance to exist. Suddenly there's no reason to go back in time and take them out in the first place. Congradulations, you just accomplished literally nothing.

?

You are thinking that the Daleks would not remember going back and destroying the Necrons and so would not do it and the necrons would still exist?

Of course the Daleks remember. They are masters of time-travel, only The Doctor (probably) have a better grasp of it.

Again though I would favor the Daleks without going back that far; I agree that the Necrons are immensely powerful in the 40k Universe, but that it doesn't really hold up to the power levels of the Who-verse. Both in numbers and technology, the Daleks are superior. In "man" to "man" fights... maybe not.

As for the T'Can: I remember the quote from an old Marvel special when Galactus invaded... "It's time to kill a god". Since the T'Can are not Dalek, they do not deserve to exist... :smalltongue:

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-03, 07:55 AM
Fair enough. And good luck to them on that last task, actually. I find Chaos and the Warp to be terribly irritating. I have to say, the Necrons are the first decent bad guys 40k has ever thrown up. (Discounting the humour value of the Orks.)

...Which is a race optimized to kill Necrons, btw.



Really worrying query: what happens when a Dalek tries to absorb a Necron through touch to steal energy as they've sometimes been to do (E.g. "Dalek" of the first season of the newest series)? 'Cos the thought of self-replicating Daleks covered in living Dalekanium is not a happy one...

Of course if you are a Dalek, it's a happy thought. And then you would kill yourself for being happy, but hey...:smallbiggrin:

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 08:06 AM
A lot of these anti-necron arguments are 'Daleks could totally build that!' stuff. If they don't have it with them then I don't think they can use it.

Mr.Silver
2009-07-03, 08:52 AM
Also, from reading, Necrons - and the C'Tan in particular - are apparently vulnerable to psychics.[ So, the Daleks have an advantage in that they're not quite too proud to use servitor races. I can see them engineering a whole race with the specific goal of making them psychic weapons to noble the Necrons. (Presumably just for the Doctor to free and turn on both sides, no doubt...)
No. C'Tan have some vulnerability to the warp, not psychic powers on their own. Necrons also have Pariahs, elite troops armed with warscythes which act as psychic nullifiers (and have rather disconcerting effects on the minds of most things that get near them). Indeed, pyschic races (Old Ones, Eldar) were generally who the Necrons spent most of their time fighting 'back in the day' (i.e. many millions of years ago). So no, this is unlikely to work. Besides if you add a slave race then it starts becoming team battles, and yes, Necron troops have occaisionally been known fight alongside human forces, generally if fighting chaos not the mention the antics of The Deceiver.




That brings another point; given the Daleks penchant for 'wierd' technology, I don't find it hard to believe they might try creating some sort of device which could disrupt the Necron's teleportation (at least on a local level).
I dunno, it's possible to prevent ligther necron ships from 'porting troops onto heavily shielded places, but anything above that is going to be very difficult. Teleportation is the necrons thing, and they've had millions of years to perfect it. You might be able to to create a location that would be difficult for them to teleport troops into but beyond that you'd struggle.



Really worrying query: what happens when a Dalek tries to absorb a Necron through touch to steal energy as they've sometimes been to do (E.g. "Dalek" of the first season of the newest series)? 'Cos the thought of self-replicating Daleks covered in living Dalekanium is not a happy one...
Not sure it'd work to be honest. The only time that's happened has been with flesh and blood species (pretty much only humans in in the new series). I'd imagine it wouldn't be a practical possibilty.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-03, 08:57 AM
No. C'Tan have some vulnerability to the warp, not psychic powers on their own. Necrons also have Pariahs, elite troops armed with warscythes which act as psychic nullifiers (and have rather disconcerting effects on the minds of most things that get near them). Indeed, pyschic races (Old Ones, Eldar) were generally who the Necrons spent most of their time fighting 'back in the day' (i.e. many millions of years ago). So no, this is unlikely to work. Besides if you add a slave race then it starts becoming team battles, and yes, Necron troops have occaisionally been known fight alongside human forces, generally if fighting chaos not the mention the antics of The Deceiver.

Fair enough.


A lot of these anti-necron arguments are 'Daleks could totally build that!' stuff. If they don't have it with them then I don't think they can use it.

Actually, they can, and frequently have. That's the point of the Daleks, why they are so dangerous. I mean, the Cult of Skaro survived a Time War by going into the space between Realities with technolgies stolen from the most powerful race in their universe (whom they rendered extinct bar two) and then, with nothing more than their own bodies, teleported back through time and created a servitor race from humans and pigs in 1930s Earth. That's the most extreme example, granted, but illustrative nontheless.

The Daleks are a race of genius-level intellects. Every Dalek is a genius. The only reason the Doctor can beat them is he's even smarter. And he's just about the only one who can beat them. They even whomped the other Time Lords. That's why they are actually scared of him, because he is about the only person to ever defeat them and he does it quite often. Everybody else the Daleks have encountered, they eventually annhilated, even if sometimes it took them a while, they won in the end.

The Necrons, from what I've been reading up on, are not exactly intellectual giants. Aside from possibly the Necron Lords, the average Necron is apparently a none-to-bright metal zombie. They have a high level of technology, but it doesn't sound like they are very good at researching further.

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that in a full-scale war, at the height of their respective powers, the Necrons would probably win the opening rounds, right up until the Daleks started bringing their intelligence to bear in anger. (Priorly, they'd be too arrogant to bother doing any real research.) And then they'd adapt the Necrons to death by coming up with some crazy mcguffin, because that, in the end, is what the Daleks DO. Basically everytime they show up, they're pulling off some insane scheme to win against whatever it is they're doing in a single blow. The Doctor is ideally suited to stopping them because mcguffin-bashing is his speciality, since it doesn't require any shooty-ness. The Necrons? Not so much.

As I say, I'm firmly convinced that on the ground, Necron vrs Dalek, or in a relatively limited engagement, the fight would be about even. In space, I'm not so sure - more detail on the ships of both sides would be needed to render a fair judgement.

But in a full-scale war, the Necrons are going to be fighting a purely reactively. They can teleport and fly anywhere they like in their own galaxy, but the Daleks can simply slap their staging grounds - as they have before (before some rotten spoilsport of a Time Lord wanders in and spoils the fun) seventeen galaxies away at half-past The Future, where the Necrons simply can't get to them. That, regardless of badassey, rule-of-cool, technology, etc ect ect, is simply a bad place to be, strategically, to fight a war. The Necrons could certainly drive the Daleks off locally (even galactically) but that's the limit.

So in a full-scale war, the Daleks would eventually win (assuming they were prepared to commit the resources to do it - and the Doctor didn't show up!) by sheer dint of adaption and the fact that the Necrons couldn't hit anything aside from the Dalek's local bases.

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 09:04 AM
In a full scale war, the Daleks would have to slip in and out of time constantly just to survive against might-as-well-be-invincible army of zombie-robots that can teleport into and out of anywhere they want at will. While the Daleks plan, a necron strike force is already en route to bring them down.
Keep in mind that Daleks don't get back up when they die. Once a dalek is destroyed it's not getting back up. If you blow up a necron, they get back up.

Basically this is what happens
"An army of Necrons has awakened to destroy us how do we retaliate?"
*necron teleportation noises*
"What are you doing h-*
*BZZZZT*

Emperor Ing
2009-07-03, 09:19 AM
Another point:
To defeat lowly necron warriors, Daleks had to unleash their full arsenal. Here are some Necron 'I win' buttons besides the C'Tan:

-Scarab Swarms that can vaporize baneblades just by flying around
-Monoliths, the necron tank. It has main cannon which is like a Gauss Gun X100 and can summon loads of necron warriors to aid it. Yes they can also fly.
-Necron Lords. Give up here. Necron Lords are immortal might-as-well-be-demigods. Immortal, as in 'cannot be killed'. They're also, ironically enough, very intelligent.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-03, 09:29 AM
Can the Necrons teleport intergalactic distances? (I suspect not, given as I've heard, they is a limit to their teleporting range.) Can they time-travel? Nothing I've read suggests that, aside from time-delays casued by the Warp, nothing in the 40k universe has that technology, unless there's something I've missed.

If not, then realistically, they can't attack Daleks not in their own galaxy. Hence the Daleks, if they are prepared to spend the prodigious time and effort and resources into dealing with a difficult and intractable foe, are going to have the luxury of time to plan and to adapt. Literally.

Selrahc
2009-07-03, 09:41 AM
Randomizer, you are severely overestimating Necrons.

Their basic guns do not "ignore" energy fields. They do not scatter tanks like they were chaff. Gauss guns can be survived by humans. Necrons are not immune to attack, and the extremely high powered guns which the Daleks wield will do them severe damage if not take them down permanently.

DamnedIrishman
2009-07-03, 10:14 AM
The Daleks are ridiculously advanced. They can tow planets from galaxy to galaxy, time travel, and each one is autonomous and capable of engineering and scientific feats almost beyond human comprehension.

Wrong. Individual Daleks have a complete lack of any form of creativity and imagination. They make excellent footsoldiers, but they're no creative scientists.

Davros and the Cult of Skaro existed for a reason. And it was Davros that designed the reality bomb, not the Daleks. The Daleks don't have the creative capacity to do so. Plus, the Cult of Skaro was destroyed, except for one (and it went irrevocably insane).

ImmortalAer
2009-07-03, 10:19 AM
I dunno, it's possible to prevent ligther necron ships from 'porting troops onto heavily shielded places, but anything above that is going to be very difficult. Teleportation is the necrons thing, and they've had millions trillions of years to perfect it. You might be able to to create a location that would be difficult for them to teleport troops into but beyond that you'd struggle.


Fix'd. The Necrons/C'Tan were battling the Old Ones at the beginning of the universe, since the OO's pretty much magically created the majority of it. And the Necron's were winning.

Brother Oni
2009-07-03, 10:24 AM
Essentially, there are an infinite number of parralel universes, each identical to our own, except at different stages of the flow of time. 0.000001 seconds ago is a different universe than .000001 seconds later. You can go back 200000+? in the past, it won't do anything to the universe of 1 relative second later.

So basically you don't believe that a cause has an effect?

If I do something now, it will have no effect on the universe's current state in one second's time? :smallconfused:


From your posts regarding the abilities of the necrons and the overall effectivness of the Daleks, it appears that you think the Daleks would be even less effective than the Imperial Guard...

Kyouhen
2009-07-03, 10:57 AM
Can the Necrons teleport intergalactic distances? (I suspect not, given as I've heard, they is a limit to their teleporting range.) Can they time-travel? Nothing I've read suggests that, aside from time-delays casued by the Warp, nothing in the 40k universe has that technology, unless there's something I've missed.

If not, then realistically, they can't attack Daleks not in their own galaxy. Hence the Daleks, if they are prepared to spend the prodigious time and effort and resources into dealing with a difficult and intractable foe, are going to have the luxury of time to plan and to adapt. Literally.

I don't think the Necrons have ever needed to teleport intergalactically, but as they're labelled as masters of the physical realm and developed their technology while fighting gods I don't think it would be difficult for them. But no, time-travel is beyond them. Either that or they just don't care enough to bother with it, but if they had it I'm sure The Deceiver would have abused it by now.


Randomizer, you are severely overestimating Necrons.

Their basic guns do not "ignore" energy fields. They do not scatter tanks like they were chaff. Gauss guns can be survived by humans. Necrons are not immune to attack, and the extremely high powered guns which the Daleks wield will do them severe damage if not take them down permanently.

Gauss Flayers can be survived by humans. Yes their basic guns don't make tanks explode on impact, that only happens if they manage to hit something critical inside. They do manage to damage them though and with enough concentrated fire can easily bring down a tank. The higher-level Gauss weapons, specifically that of the Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers, can easily take down tanks though.

ImmortalAer
2009-07-03, 11:01 AM
From your posts regarding the abilities of the necrons and the overall effectivness of the Daleks, it appears that you think the Daleks would be even less effective than the Imperial Guard...

But the Imperial Guard can't hurt Necron's at all either, fluffwise.

(...waits for the inevitable cries of CAIN...)

Deliverance
2009-07-03, 11:38 AM
(...waits for the inevitable cries of CAIN...)
Sorry, but no to that one. :D (Though I know what you mean)

With Sandy Mitchell being one of the few writers to not continuously downgrade the Necrons to get a more level playing field, even our great hero of the Imperium Ciaphas Cain knows full well that the Imperial Guard has no chance in hell of standing against a necron incursion, as illustrated rather nicely in Cain's Last Stand. :)

chiasaur11
2009-07-03, 11:54 AM
Sorry, but no to that one. :D (Though I know what you mean)

With Sandy Mitchell being one of the few writers to not continuously downgrade the Necrons to get a more level playing field, even our great hero of the Imperium Ciaphas Cain knows full well that the Imperial Guard has no chance in hell of standing against a necron incursion, as illustrated rather nicely in Cain's Last Stand. :)

Still, Stormtroopers did solid damage right up until the pariahs showed, and a Garg being used to detonate a fuel refinery apparently did some good.

So even if they're doomed longterm, even the guard can do something to Necrons.

Mr.Silver
2009-07-03, 12:16 PM
Still, Stormtroopers did solid damage right up until the pariahs showed, and a Garg being used to detonate a fuel refinery apparently did some good.

So even if they're doomed longterm, even the guard can do something to Necrons.

I'm pretty sure Guard could do something to Daleks as well, given enough massed fire and heavy weapons. While they're main tactic is human wave they do pack some fairly heavy weaponry and tanks as well.


From your posts regarding the abilities of the necrons and the overall effectivness of the Daleks, it appears that you think the Daleks would be even less effective than the Imperial Guard...
Well, the guard have won some long term victories without getting defeated by a guy with a sonic screwdriver :smalltongue:

Seriously though, there's a bit of overhyping going on on both sides here. I doubt Necrons would win this with, as rand puts it, a massacre. I think the capabilities of the Daleks are also being a little overhyped as well. Bear in mind that, while Dalek Sek did say that one Dalek could defeat a planet's worth of cybermen, the cult of Skaro only took on about a building full of them. Dalek's are notorious for being incredibly self-confident, often to the point of delusional arrogance. This tends to be the weakness the Doctor usually exploits.

Viv
2009-07-03, 12:43 PM
I don't watch much Dr. Who but the last episode I saw, the Doctor (who looks like some sort of weird gumby in this incarnation) Goes back to a hooverville and kills the last three remaining Daleks.

So the Daleks are all gone. Hence the Necrons have nothing to fight.

No, they're not. Really. Trust me, they're not. The Doctor keeps saying there are no more X's. But there are.

Especially when it comes to Time Lords and Daleks. There is no way, under any circumstances, EVER, they will remove the Master and the Daleks from the universe.

I had this conversation with a friend that was new to Doctor Who when the new series came out. He was asking about the Time Lords and went on about how the Doctor was that last one. My comment was, "That's bull, there's no way they permanently write out the Master. Heck, there's no way they even do it for very long."

Not three episodes later, yup, there's the Master.

EvilDMMk3
2009-07-03, 12:55 PM
So the Daleks are all gone. Hence the Necrons have nothing to fight.

Not only has the most recent season (last year's) proven you totally wrong but even in that episode Dalek Caan escaped

Viv
2009-07-03, 01:09 PM
1) Personally the way I see it, time travel really isn't usable by the Daleks as a key advantage. if they go back in time and do something to change the future, they would not have had a reason to go back in time and fix it, so as a result, they couldn't have gone back in time and done anything. In other words, change the future and absolutely nothing happens.

Except that's not how Doctor Who time travel works. Time and time again in the series, the future is deliberately changed by people going back in time.

Heck, the Paradox machine the master made is not even strictly necessary. I imagine it was just convenient -- and I imagine it was made specifically to psychologically injure the Doctor. Seeing that done to his TARDIS must have hurt.


The Daleks are a race of genius-level intellects. Every Dalek is a genius. The only reason the Doctor can beat them is he's even smarter. And he's just about the only one who can beat them. They even whomped the other Time Lords. That's why they are actually scared of him, because he is about the only person to ever defeat them and he does it quite often. Everybody else the Daleks have encountered, they eventually annhilated, even if sometimes it took them a while, they won in the end.

Heh, they're not just scared, they're terrified. He's their boogeyman. They call him things such as The Destroyer Of Worlds, The Bringer of Darkness and The Oncoming Storm.


Wrong. Individual Daleks have a complete lack of any form of creativity and imagination. They make excellent footsoldiers, but they're no creative scientists.

Davros and the Cult of Skaro existed for a reason. And it was Davros that designed the reality bomb, not the Daleks. The Daleks don't have the creative capacity to do so. Plus, the Cult of Skaro was destroyed, except for one (and it went irrevocably insane).

False. The Daleks all have creativity and imagination but they have, for lack of a better word, an orthodoxy. They are incapable of operating outside of the bounds of that orthodoxy but within it they are very capable.

Mostly, this orthodoxy consists of (1) the Daleks are the superior race, and (2) all other races must be exterminated. This orthodoxy precludes things like alliances (enslavement is not an alliance), changes to the Dalek race (not technology), etc. But it doesn't limit them otherwise.

Davros wasn't created by the Daleks. It was the other way around. He doesn't exist to serve their purpose, they exist to serve his. Davros is the Dalek C'than equivalent. Because of their orthodoxy, the Daleks believe this isn't the case -- but one must always remember that they're wrong.

The Cult of Skaro was created to permit the Daleks to consider options that do not exist within their orthodoxy. I wonder if it was Davros that created them, or if it was the Daleks themselves. If it was the Daleks, it seems even normal Daleks can somewhat move past their own orthodoxy.

DamnedIrishman
2009-07-03, 02:32 PM
Davros wasn't created by the Daleks. It was the other way around. He doesn't exist to serve their purpose, they exist to serve his. Davros is the Dalek C'than equivalent. Because of their orthodoxy, the Daleks believe this isn't the case -- but one must always remember that they're wrong.


True. In fact, Davros created the Daleks out of his own race, the Dal. But now he is their slave: they do not serve him, they hate him for he is not a Dalek.

comicshorse
2009-07-03, 05:39 PM
True. In fact, Davros created the Daleks out of his own race, the Dal.

Actually they were called the KALEDS

Viv
2009-07-03, 07:03 PM
Actually, you're both right. At different points in time, the show has referred to the Dalek predecessor race as either the Dal or the Kaled.

Kyouhen
2009-07-04, 12:25 AM
Come to think of it, I don't think travelling back in time to wipe out the Necrontyr would work. Unless I'm mistaken the Daleks can't see through time, only travel through it. Which means that they have no idea how the Necrons were created or where they originated from. I'm not sure anyone knows that. The Eldar might, but I doubt they would cooperate with the Daleks. So go ahead, travel back through time to figure out where a race that can teleport anywhere in the galaxy originated from. Unless they stumble upon the Necrontyr home world while the conversion is happening I doubt they'll be able to do anything useful.

factotum
2009-07-04, 12:47 AM
Actually, you're both right. At different points in time, the show has referred to the Dalek predecessor race as either the Dal or the Kaled.

I always thought the Dals were the still-humanoid variant who were fighting the Kaleds...leastways, that's how I remember "Genesis of the Daleks".

Viv
2009-07-04, 03:16 AM
There are earlier references to the origin of the Daleks than Genesis.

Like I said, they're both right. It just depends on which episodes you're drawing from.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-04, 01:34 PM
Heh, they're not just scared, they're terrified. He's their boogeyman. They call him things such as The Destroyer Of Worlds, The Bringer of Darkness and The Oncoming Storm.




Any chance there will be a case of mistaken identity and massive freak-out on the Dalek's part when they learn the Necrons are led by a being called the "Night-Bringer"?:smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2009-07-04, 02:16 PM
Any chance there will be a case of mistaken identity and massive freak-out on the Dalek's part when they learn the Necrons are led by a being called the "Night-Bringer"?:smallbiggrin:

Followed by massive offense on the part of the Night-Bringer the instant the Dalek's relax on finding it "only" an extradimensional star god.

Aotrs Commander
2009-07-04, 04:03 PM
Followed by massive offense on the part of the Night-Bringer the instant the Dalek's relax on finding it "only" an extradimensional star god.

The best part comes when the Necrons and Daleks realise, Scooby-Doo fashion, the Night-Bringer really is the Doctor and the Necrons have spent several millions years blindly following him, mistakenly thinking he is the celestial avatar of destruction (easy mistake to make with all the chaos and death that follows in his wake) and the avatar was created from the Time Lord DNA left in one of his used socks. Hilarity Ensues...

Kyouhen
2009-07-04, 05:23 PM
The best part comes when the Necrons and Daleks realise, Scooby-Doo fashion, the Night-Bringer really is the Doctor and the Necrons have spent several millions years blindly following him, mistakenly thinking he is the celestial avatar of destruction (easy mistake to make with all the chaos and death that follows in his wake) and the avatar was created from the Time Lord DNA left in one of his used socks. Hilarity Ensues...

Wait wait wait wait. Wait. I know how this would all go down.

The Daleks show up and say they're going to EX-TER-MIN-ATE all the Necrons. The Deceiver turns into The Doctor. The Daleks flee back to their own universe and never show up again. In short, it's a draw. :smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2009-07-04, 06:41 PM
the Night-Bringer really is the Doctor

Ah, so that's what the Doctor does as a hobby. "Playing" WH40K.:smalltongue:

Brother Oni
2009-07-07, 06:21 AM
There's quite an amusing short story I remember reading somewhere where the Emperor was actually Captain Jack and the whole Horus Heresy was actually a coverup by the 'loyal' Primarchs like Rogal Dorn to imprison the Emperor, with the psyker sacrifices to keep him unconscious.

My favourite bit is the first thing Jack does after being freed by the Doctor, is to flirt with the Arbeites that was guarding the Golden Throne. :smallbiggrin:

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-02, 09:50 PM
The daleks have
1. The reality bomb
2. the void ship
3. time travel
4. genius level strategic intelligence
5. the deathsmiths of Goth
6. they can steal technology from any other source they know of in ALL OF HISTORY
Also in the Great Time War the Time Lords didn't even know who they were fighting. THe Daleks could employ the same stategy with the Necrons. The Daleks would have a tough fight but they would win.

Avilan the Grey
2009-11-03, 02:36 AM
There's quite an amusing short story I remember reading somewhere where the Emperor was actually Captain Jack and the whole Horus Heresy was actually a coverup by the 'loyal' Primarchs like Rogal Dorn to imprison the Emperor, with the psyker sacrifices to keep him unconscious.

My favourite bit is the first thing Jack does after being freed by the Doctor, is to flirt with the Arbeites that was guarding the Golden Throne. :smallbiggrin:

Oh yes, that whole half page story was made of Awesome.

Texas_Ben
2009-11-03, 12:28 PM
Oh yes, that whole half page story was made of Awesome.


Just pointing out, the post you just replied to was made about 4 months ago. I mean I know that you aren't the one who necroed this thread, just sayin'.

Talkkno
2009-11-04, 12:01 PM
The Gauss Flayer take outs tanks thing is false, the land raider incident was from a heavy gauss weapon, not a gauss flayer. Hell, the guass weapons on there bikes in Caves of Ice only made small incisions in the IG shuttles. And Nercon's flayers have easily exposed and hit that even Orks can hit (given it was a lucky shot, but Orks don't exactly aim in the first place) that blow them up.

Somebloke
2009-11-06, 08:47 AM
I vaguely recall the TL using Black-Hole Carriers in the wars and still being wiped out.

If that is the case...

tribble
2009-11-06, 02:05 PM
Daleks dont have cool. They are essentialy a whisk and a plunger attacked to a large steampunk Roomba.

That sounds like a pair of contradictory statements to me.:smallamused:

Bouregard
2009-11-06, 05:52 PM
Uhm ... I guess the Nightbringer alone is quite capable to slaughter a good part of the Daleks.

Daleks are still sentient under all those layers of steel... oh they will fear death and if the fear death... they fear The Nightbringer.

Also a simple number thing, I'm not that into the Doctor Universe but if I understand most of the wiki correctly the Daleks are limited? So the Necrons automatically win. They can revive their fallen soldiers pretty much anytime uh... well you have to kill a Necron first...

The Glyphstone
2009-11-06, 06:04 PM
The Gauss Flayer take outs tanks thing is false, the land raider incident was from a heavy gauss weapon, not a gauss flayer. Hell, the guass weapons on there bikes in Caves of Ice only made small incisions in the IG shuttles. And Nercon's flayers have easily exposed and hit that even Orks can hit (given it was a lucky shot, but Orks don't exactly aim in the first place) that blow them up.

Game/fluff disconnect...and for that matter, Edition disconnect. A gauss flayer has a 1/36 chance of killing a land raider it hits, just like any other vehicle in the game...well, it did until 5thEd hit. Assuming a IG shuttle has AV14+, the guns on Destroyers (the aformentioned bike-things) can't only inflict any noticable damage at all 1/6 of their hits (less if the shuttle has Extra Armor), and would only blow it up with 1/36 of those hits. In this case, they didn't get lucky.

HandofCrom
2009-11-07, 03:22 AM
I think it would go down to whoever could reverse engineer the other side's technology better. Without the C'tans' involvement, the Daleks would win, even without time travel. They are all geniuses, and while they may have trouble to start, they would steal the Necron technology and use it against them. The Necrons would not be able to pull the same trick, as only their lords and immortals are sentient.

If the Void Dragon got involved, I'd give it to the Necrons. All the C'tan, especially it, have singularly unimaginable understandings of physics and technology. They would steal Dalek technology, learn how to overcome it, and exterminate the children of Skaros.