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View Full Version : Is the kensai broken?!



Jeristo
2009-07-01, 04:01 AM
Ok, I know this is a total abuse of rules, and by RAW, probably would not work, but bear with me.

1. So, if you consider the unarmed strike to be a strike by any part of your body, your body is effectively the entire weapon.

2. The kensai PrC can effectively enhance unarmed strikes with weapon abilities. (Though there are probably a few easier ways to get this without going through kensai, it's just the first I noticed)

3. Sizing, a +1 enhancement, can change the size of the weapon as a standard action....to any size.

Now, with these 3 things in mind, what is to stop you from making your unarmed strikes (AKA yourself) colossal/fine as a standard action? :smallamused:

(Just toying with random ideas here for the most part, and seeing what everyone thinks of this)

Quietus
2009-07-01, 04:06 AM
It's a strike with a *part* of your body. So you can't make your whole body change size, just your fists/feet/shoulder/etc.

kamikasei
2009-07-01, 04:10 AM
Kensai can also give you flaming, throwing, returning unarmed strike. Rocket Punch!

Point being, DM should pay some attention to both the power and absurdity levels of the class in play.

(Note: for that matter it could give you a flaming, throwing, returning head).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-01, 04:11 AM
Increasing weapon size to get extra damage...
http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg
You could just play a Changeling and get levels in Warshaper to do what you describe not only free of XP costs and alignment restrictions, but also with no limit to just how big you can go. Even then, you'd have been better off basing your character's damage on Power Attack.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-01, 04:12 AM
Kensai can also give you flaming, throwing, returning unarmed strike. Rocket Punch!

Point being, DM should pay some attention to both the power and absurdity levels of the class in play.

(Note: for that matter it could give you a flaming, throwing, returning head).

If I were the DM I'd make it a "Hadoken" kinda thing...

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-07-01, 04:14 AM
Bizarre, weird, but from a pure mechanical standpoint powerwise it is not neccessarily overpowered... at least if you consider you can only wield a "weapon" within how many size categories of your size... and the sizing enchantment changes the weapon size, not the "user's" size.

Random NPC
2009-07-01, 04:44 AM
Now, with these 3 things in mind, what is to stop you from making your unarmed strikes (AKA yourself) colossal/fine as a standard action? :smallamused:

Making a part of me colossal with a standard action :smalleek:

Now, who needs Charisma? :smallbiggrin:




ANYWAYS..... yeah, no. The Kensai, if anything, could use a boost

One Step Two
2009-07-01, 04:51 AM
If I were the DM I'd make it a "Hadoken" kinda thing...

Wouldn't that be a head-oken?

Quietus
2009-07-01, 05:00 AM
Increasing weapon size to get extra damage...
http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg
You could just play a Changeling and get levels in Warshaper to do what you describe not only free of XP costs and alignment restrictions, but also with no limit to just how big you can go. Even then, you'd have been better off basing your character's damage on Power Attack.

Warshaper is limited to one size increase. The Sizing enhancement isn't.

Does the Sizing enhancement eliminate the penalty for unusually sized weapons? Or would your overlarge hands/feet/head give appropriate penalties for being awkward as all get out?

AslanCross
2009-07-01, 06:50 AM
If I were the DM I'd make it a "Hadoken" kinda thing...

I think it's meant to be a Ghost Rider thing, actually.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-01, 07:07 AM
Warshaper is limited to one size increase. The Sizing enhancement isn't.

Does the Sizing enhancement eliminate the penalty for unusually sized weapons? Or would your overlarge hands/feet/head give appropriate penalties for being awkward as all get out?

No, it's described as being designed for characters who change sizes often, and would need a weapon capable of becoming the appropriate size. If a medium size character uses the Sizing property to cause any weapon, including his unarmed strike, to grow exceptionally large, he would no longer be capable of wielding it.

Warshaper gives no such limitation, it simply requires an additional activation for each size category you wish to grow it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-01, 07:20 AM
Ok, I know this is a total abuse of rules, and by RAW, probably would not work, but bear with me.

1. So, if you consider the unarmed strike to be a strike by any part of your body, your body is effectively the entire weapon.

2. The kensai PrC can effectively enhance unarmed strikes with weapon abilities. (Though there are probably a few easier ways to get this without going through kensai, it's just the first I noticed)

3. Sizing, a +1 enhancement, can change the size of the weapon as a standard action....to any size.

Now, with these 3 things in mind, what is to stop you from making your unarmed strikes (AKA yourself) colossal/fine as a standard action? :smallamused:

(Just toying with random ideas here for the most part, and seeing what everyone thinks of this)

This might work if you have a natural slam attack.

Hunter Noventa
2009-07-01, 07:37 AM
This might work if you have a natural slam attack.

So a Warforged Kensai puts sizing on his slam attack? And can therefore become a giant robot? And puts flaming, throwing and returning on his fists to get a giant robot rocket punch?

I totally want to do this now.

JeenLeen
2009-07-01, 07:38 AM
This might work if you have a natural slam attack.

Is there anything, such as one of the Totemist soulmelds in Magic of Incarnum, that gives Slam attacks? Well, anything besides being or becoming a vampire, mummy, or other monster?

I suppose Warshaper could let you 'grow' a Slam attack. Is that forbidden by its ability to grow a natural weapon if you do not normally have one?

ImmortalAer
2009-07-01, 08:07 AM
I think it's meant to be a Ghost Rider thing, actually.

. . .

I'm using this, now. And wielding a chain. :smallcool:

#Raptor
2009-07-01, 09:45 AM
Increasing weapon size to get extra damage...
http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Not always.

Greater Mighty Wallop increases a bludgeoning weapons damage by 1 size category/4lvls.
So a normal sized greatclub goes from 1d10 to 4d8 @ CL 12, to 6d8 @ CL 16. And it is a lvl 3 spell that lasts 1 hour/lvl.

Strongarm bracers are ok too if your caster won't or can't cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you.
But getting a +2 str item should usually be a higher priority. After that, get the bracers.

/E: Or be a race wich gets powerful build... Goliath and Half-Giant are both decent choices that offer alot more than just increased weapon dice.

Keld Denar
2009-07-01, 10:19 AM
4 levels of Kensai nets you Brilliant Energy Weapon. If you were a monk before becoming a Kensai, you can make UASs with your whole body. That means your whole body is a weapon, and is made from Brilliant Energy and can pass through all non-organic material. Congratz, if you aren't walking on the grass, you are falling through the world.

Clipping error, please reset collisions!

EDIT:
The other broken thing you can do with a Kensai is donate your BAB to someone. Its not an attack bonus, you are actually giving part of your BAB to another character. But...how do I break this? Well, you give your BAB to another character who has 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. His caster level is equal to his BAB. Thusly, you can artificially inflate his CL during the morning buff routine to make your buffs more effective and harder to dispel.

Zeful
2009-07-01, 01:12 PM
The other broken thing you can do with a Kensai is donate your BAB to someone. Its not an attack bonus, you are actually giving part of your BAB to another character. But...how do I break this? Well, you give your BAB to another character who has 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. His caster level is equal to his BAB. Thusly, you can artificially inflate his CL during the morning buff routine to make your buffs more effective and harder to dispel.

And give your weapon the skillful enhancement for permanent 3/4 Bab (with that specific weapon but, yeah).

Curmudgeon
2009-07-01, 01:27 PM
Making a part of me colossal with a standard action :smalleek:

Now, who needs Charisma? :smallbiggrin: ... but with no chance at all of putting it to use:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature canít make optimum use of a weapon that isnít properly sized for it.
... If a weaponís designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature canít wield the weapon at all.

Siosilvar
2009-07-01, 01:31 PM
4 levels of Kensai nets you Brilliant Energy Weapon. If you were a monk before becoming a Kensai, you can make UASs with your whole body. That means your whole body is a weapon, and is made from Brilliant Energy and can pass through all non-organic material. Congratz, if you aren't walking on the grass, you are falling through the world.

Clipping error, please reset collisions!

What about the organic material in things like topsoil?

Keld Denar
2009-07-01, 01:39 PM
Has to be living, otherwise Brilliant Energy would work on undead, which it doesn't. And don't give me any of this "thousands of living creatures and bacteria in the soil" BS.

Its just there for absurdity...don't go over analyzing it...

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-01, 01:40 PM
... but with no chance at all of putting it to use:

Ah, but the unarmed strike remains a light weapon, no matter how many size categories you increase it.


An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

AmberVael
2009-07-01, 01:43 PM
I read this thread, and all I can think of is Mario in Super Smash Bros. (http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/801/801587/super-smash-bros-brawl-20070705095409804-000.jpg)
It would be hilarious to use. >.>

Faleldir
2009-07-03, 09:11 PM
If a Monk's entire body is a weapon, a Psychic Warrior can summon a Monk with Call Weaponry!

woodenbandman
2009-07-03, 09:23 PM
Oh god...

Put morphing on your unarmed strike and turn yourself into another person's unarmed strike (their whole body).

Ganurath
2009-07-03, 09:27 PM
If a Monk's entire body is a weapon, a Psychic Warrior can summon a Monk with Call Weaponry!I call... Epic Level Monk!

Also, Brilliant Energy Monk works five with Wings of Flying and the Improved Flight feat. The best part? Most attacks aren't made of organic material.

Indon
2009-07-03, 09:44 PM
4 levels of Kensai nets you Brilliant Energy Weapon. If you were a monk before becoming a Kensai, you can make UASs with your whole body. That means your whole body is a weapon, and is made from Brilliant Energy and can pass through all non-organic material. Congratz, if you aren't walking on the grass, you are falling through the world.

Clipping error, please reset collisions!

Can't the Monk count his body as a natural or artificial weapon in regards to buffs depending on which is more beneficial? Just consider your body an artificial weapon for anything you don't want to drop through.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-03, 10:43 PM
Keld stole my comment!

More sillyness: Add the weapon ability that lets it the weapon turn into different weapons (morphing). Because you are a monk, turn into a dart. Then get stuffed in someone's mouth. Change into a greatsword :smallbiggrin:

Or, if you were willing to abuse RAW even more, you could change into a Tarrasaque Monk. Its entire body is a weapon! :smallbiggrin:

oxybe
2009-07-03, 11:44 PM
i believe the proper term is

GIGA... DRILL... BREEEAAAAKAHHHHH!
http://www.anime-source.com/banzai/images/articles/TTGL/TTGL13.JPG

chiasaur11
2009-07-03, 11:56 PM
So a Warforged Kensai puts sizing on his slam attack? And can therefore become a giant robot? And puts flaming, throwing and returning on his fists to get a giant robot rocket punch?

I totally want to do this now.

Who wouldn't?

jagadaishio
2009-07-04, 12:19 PM
Everdancing + Brilliant Energy. A flying, shining monk that can't be harmed with non-living things. After being rendered unconscious, the monk's body continues to fight the same enemy that it was originally attacking until the enemy is defeated.

Paul H
2009-07-04, 12:56 PM
Hi

Been playing in an Age of Worms campaign. One of my (retired) characters was a Ftr/Swashbuckler/Kensai mix, using TWF with 2 Large Elven Thinblades. (Using 'special' bracers for oversized weapons).

Campaign primarily against Evil & Evil Outsiders.

Primary wpn was:
Lge Elven Thinblade +2/Evil Outsider Bane/Holy/Collision/Sacred/Spell Storing/Prismatic Burst. (With Acid Wpn Crystal for extra D6 acid. Also wearing complete Wraith's Woe for Ghosttouch).

Dam vs Evil: 2D6+2+(Str Mod)+(Int Mod)+2D6+2 (Holy)+5(Collision)+(Sacred)+D6 Acid+D6 Flame.
That's 8D6+19 (Str 22 Int 18) + 12D6 Fire (stored Scorching Ray) + D6 Acid

Only got to use Prismatic Burst once - couldn't poison an ooze! :smallfrown:

Cheers
Paul H
PS with feats got 4 attacks each per round with both primary & secondary weapons.
PPS had Belt of Battle!:smalltongue:

Pulsecode
2009-07-04, 08:51 PM
(Note: for that matter it could give you a flaming, throwing, returning head).

... that is the best thing ever. I now have to design some kind of superhero - probably in Mutants and Masterminds - who has that as a power. The long ranged flaming headbutt.

Indon
2009-07-05, 11:11 AM
Kensai can also give you flaming, throwing, returning unarmed strike. Rocket Punch!

Point being, DM should pay some attention to both the power and absurdity levels of the class in play.

(Note: for that matter it could give you a flaming, throwing, returning head).

Come to think of it, why bother with Returning? Get a Slam attack and use it to move around!

A Warforged Monk with Throwing could hurl themselves up to 50 feet (100 with Distance too) as part of their ranged attack. Plus, thanks to ranged sunder, they can execute this leap to anywhere there's an object they can try to break!

Edit: And it gets even better as you gain multiple attacks!

Roderick_BR
2009-07-05, 01:52 PM
Ok, I know this is a total abuse of rules, and by RAW, probably would not work, but bear with me.

1. So, if you consider the unarmed strike to be a strike by any part of your body, your body is effectively the entire weapon.

2. The kensai PrC can effectively enhance unarmed strikes with weapon abilities. (Though there are probably a few easier ways to get this without going through kensai, it's just the first I noticed)

3. Sizing, a +1 enhancement, can change the size of the weapon as a standard action....to any size.

Now, with these 3 things in mind, what is to stop you from making your unarmed strikes (AKA yourself) colossal/fine as a standard action? :smallamused:

(Just toying with random ideas here for the most part, and seeing what everyone thinks of this)
You'll look like a Battletoad, with huge hands and feet.

Kyouhen
2009-07-05, 02:42 PM
You'll look like a Battletoad, with huge hands and feet.

Unless you use it on the rest of your body too. Don't forget, monks can attack with ANYTHING. Knees, arms, head, torso.

Also, this has finally given me a way to make a Halfling Hulking Hurler! Fear my wrath!