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Ping_T._Squirrel
2006-01-09, 04:21 AM
Simple question. Would a feat that allowed someone to fight with a reach weapon against a target at 5ft be broken?

Basically, it would allow any reach weapon like a glave be used like the spiked chain, so I don't think it would, but I might be missing something.

Beelzebub1111
2006-01-09, 04:30 AM
add a pre-requisit feat or two

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-01-09, 04:43 AM
There was an Exotic Weapon called a Duom that was a D8 or D10 polearm that could be used against people 5 ft away from you. Basically, it had back-spikes that could be used to poke your opponent in the back.

So, make it an exotic weapon, with appropriate penalties for not having the proper EWP feat, and have fun.

OR, if you truely want to do that with ALL polearms, I'd say that would be far too powerful for a single feat. I can just think of all the broken-ness that would ensue...

Darkie
2006-01-09, 04:45 AM
I swear there's a feat for this.

I think it was Monkey Grip, where you could use a Reach weapon against adjacent targets, but took a -4 to hit.

Yuki Akuma
2006-01-09, 04:46 AM
How about...

Close-Quarter Fighting [General]
You are adept at using reach weapons in tight quarters.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: You can use a weapon with reach against adjacent foes. You must have at least five feet of open space (that is, no solid obstructions like a wall) behind you in order to gain the benefits of this feat.
Special: A Fighter may choose this feat as a special bonus feat.


I swear there's a feat for this.

I think it was Monkey Grip, where you could use a Reach weapon against adjacent targets, but took a -4 to hit.

...WHy do so many people completely misunderstand Monkey Grip? It lets you wield weapons that are too large for you without penalty. It functions exactly like the Goliath/Half-Giant racial ability Powerful Build.

RoboticSheeple
2006-01-09, 04:55 AM
I doubt it, just make a Dex requirement and maybe a strenght one too (it would be unbalanced)

Also I think the person shouldn't be able to if flanked or up agaisnt a wall or any other sort of circumstance that would mean the extra lenght of the weapon that must now be behind the fighter would hit something.

Ping_T._Squirrel
2006-01-10, 07:54 AM
The close-quater feat suggested by Yuki might work, but the way he has it, there is no advantage to taking it. If there is nothing behind him, what is to stop the fighter from taking a five foot step back to make his full attack.

And I don't think it would not be too broken as the spiked chain already has that ability, but Beelzebub might be right when he says there is need for prerequisit feats.

Toliudar
2006-01-10, 11:12 AM
I've seen similar abilities put into a couple of pole-arm based Prestige classes, but not as a separate feat. Since EWP gets you spiked chain, I don't think it's unbalanced for one feat to give you the ability to do this with another reach weapon. I've already house-ruled the use of the haft/butt end of the pole-arm as an improvised weapon in close quarters.

A dex requirement 13+ seems appropriate. If you want to avoid creating a 25' diameter kill zone from attacks of opportunity, you could also shift it so that the player can choke up on his/her weapon grip as a free action 1/round - that way, they choose whether they're threatening close or far, but not both. Limits the power a bit.

Azrael
2006-01-10, 11:21 AM
There are plenty of reasons to take Close Quarters if you're a pole arm fighter, some of the better ones are:

- You can make AoO on both the 5' and 10' squares
- You can attack adjacent foes, even when swarmed or surrounded on all sides.
- Whirlwind would threaten 20 squares (24 if you count the far corners)

And guess what? The feat already exisits, as posted by Yuki. There's no need to try to rewrite it. Sure, it's not core... but that wasn't the question.

Darkie
2006-01-10, 09:29 PM
Ok, so it's not Monkey Grip.

However, there is an official feat somewhere that lets you attack adjacent opponents with a -4.

I know this because I houseruled in a feat that let you do it without, initially, and then saw that there was one already.

Democratus
2006-01-10, 10:32 PM
As the feat is currently written, it does not allow you to threaten adjacent squares, only attack into them.

I think this a great compromise. You still have one disadvantage of a reach weapon (no AoO) but nullify another (no attacks at 5').

Perhaps you could create an "Improved Close Quarter Fighting" that allows you to threaten adjacent squares?

ccelizic
2006-01-10, 10:48 PM
I saw a home brewed feat that allowed the fighter to use a free action to shift grip and turn a reach weapon into a regular weapon and back. This was before swift actions mind you. It was a handy compromise though since whatever you pick at the end of the round affects what happens for the rest of the round, if you choke up you can get those guys in close but you no longer threaten at 10 feet. If you go with the standard grip you can get those guys at long range but people inside your reach now can whack you with impunity.

WoTC posted an article on reach weapons on their site that I cannot find. The authors suggested taking unarmed strike since you can deliver kick attacks at d6 damage, better then nothing but it allows you to threaten adjacent squares with a reach weapon. Another thing they suggested as an unofficial ruling would be to allow reach weapons to attack adjacent squares if the attacker takes -4 on the attack due to the weapon being poorly built for such a strike.

Reptile
2006-01-10, 11:46 PM
I posted this yesterday, but the post got eaten when the boards were reset:

Complete Warrior contains a feat called "Close-Quarters Fighting" that is completely unrelated; you might want to rename your proposed feat.

MartinRelph
2006-01-11, 01:36 AM
Here's another homebrew mechanic to chew on (haven't run it, but it might make some sense...)

Allow a polearm user to use his weapon as a club/staff within 5'.

I'd say 1d6 dmg with the strength bonus to damage reduced to none halved. This would represent the fact that the weapon is designed to deliver power to the end, not the middle.

I realize this doesn't really capture how they were used historically, but for a quick and dirty ruling it might be okay.

--MR

Single Shot Zombie
2006-01-11, 07:54 AM
There's an odd feat somewhere (non-core) that allows the halberd to be used as a double weapon, with the blunt end dealing 1d6+1/2 Str mod bludgeoning damage. Not sure about threatened area, but I think that using the halberd like that would make it a non-reach weapon.

I think it was called Spinning Halberd or something........

(Btw Yuki, apart from letting you wield larger weapons, Powerful Build also treats you as one size larger for determining checks like bull rush and grapple.)

Meat Shield
2006-01-11, 09:52 AM
I think the feat you are looking for is called "Choke-Up", but I can't remember what book it was in. Sword and Fist maybe?

EDIT: Feat was actually in Dragon mag, but I don't have the issuenumber. Essentially let you "choke up" (like a baseball bat) on reach weapons as a free action to allow you to attack adjacent squares.

Akiosama
2006-01-11, 01:53 PM
As to the original topic, keep in mind that a change such as you're suggesting would make reach weapons all act similar to a spiked chain (except be easier to acquire/use since the chain is an Exotic Weapon (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong)). If you don't have a problem with that, then this idea isn't too bad.

If you do, you need to really rethink the whole idea.

If you don't penalize the wielder enough, it will end up feeling like a spiky-chainy world... Some of the suggestions here seem to take that into account to one degree or another, though.

I haven't had any characters in my games metagame to the chain yet, so I can't really say if the chain is broken or not. *I have seen it mentioned a bunch of times here though...

Anyhow, something to think about.

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

Seffbasilisk
2006-01-11, 09:29 PM
...WHy do so many people completely misunderstand Monkey Grip? It lets you wield weapons that are too large for you without penalty. It functions exactly like the Goliath/Half-Giant racial ability Powerful Build.


Actually monkey grip comes with a -2 penalty. ;D

Torger
2006-01-11, 10:00 PM
Ok, so it's not Monkey Grip.

However, there is an official feat somewhere that lets you attack adjacent opponents with a -4.

I know this because I houseruled in a feat that let you do it without, initially, and then saw that there was one already.


It was in Dragon last year, Jeff. There was an article "All Abour Polearms that had it.

Edit: Fixed broken tags

Darkie
2006-01-11, 10:38 PM
It was in Dragon last year, Jeff. There was an article "All Abour Polearms that had it.Aye, I see it now. Couldn't remember properly... saw it in the Candlekeep compilations.

Shorten Grip, from DR331. Can attack adjacent enemies with a reach weapon (but not an Awl Pike) with a -2 penalty.

Gralamin
2006-01-12, 12:51 AM
hmm sounds like an intresting feat, it would make playing with a reach weapon funer