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oxinabox
2009-07-01, 10:19 PM
I'm going to be runing a nautical campaign with siege engines (no cannons)
now a balista couldn't sink a ship, but a mongol or gods forbid if they manage to get a trebuchet onto a ship.
Seige engine rules are from Hero's of battle Not DMG.

Now i need a method to work out how long until a ship sinks.
before anyone suggests it i can't use narative time.
It wouldn't be fair on the enemies or the players.

Requirements:
*Answer in number of rounds.
*take into account furthur damage
*Repairs. someone can use a full round action of Craft Shipwight to temporarily repair a breach. also some spells may be able to do simiular.
*min damage requirement: ship can take some damage before it starts to sink.

Not requirements:
*Bailing: Noone will be bailing in a fight.
*Weather.
*long term consequences. we assume after the fight they can keep the ship together long enough to dry dock it for proper repairs.

thing with seige engines is that even if they are trying not to sink thge ship they may miss and hit it anyway, or even if they hit a person, it will carry though.

quick_comment
2009-07-01, 10:25 PM
It depends on the size of the ship, its buoyancy and the specific damage.

oxinabox
2009-07-01, 11:00 PM
It depends on the size of the ship, its buoyancy and the specific damage.

exactly.
Now do ships fit the size rules?
Their not square.
and most are too big.

Bouyancy. I will know the max load of the ship and the load it's currentlyu holding.
I would say we can abstract size and buoyancy out of the equation.
All that really matters is: total current damage,a nd how long it's been sinking already.
current damage determines rate of sinking.
How long it's been sinking needs to be turned in to how long it has left.


I could solve this using dimentional reasoning (yay for 1st year engineering)... but the answer would be complex and not something i'ld want to use in a game.

AslanCross
2009-07-01, 11:06 PM
exactly.
Now do ships fit the size rules?
Their not square.


Neither are dragons. In fact, the only monster that really fits a square base is a gelatinous cube.

The space a creature takes up is simply the amount of space it needs to occupy for it to fight effectively in combat (hence a dragon doesn't need to include its entire length, and squeezing past tight walls includes penalties for combat).

Stormwrack has many details regarding ship combat. You might want to check it out if your campaign is naval. The book does use the traditional size categories for ships. Many of them are gargantuan to colossal.

EDIT: I looked it up quickly. A d% roll gives you the number of minutes it takes for a ship to sink if the captain fails his Profession (sailor) check to keep the ship from sinking. Takes quite a while, especially if you consider that one round (with everyone acting) is six seconds.

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 12:18 AM
stormwreck.
*shuffles through books at gaming club, ahha!*
Why haven't i looked at this before?
I really must tell my players about this,

I've only had a quick glace through.
But dones't really deal with havein a hole blown maliciosly through your ship.
mostly it's natural, even battering refers to wind battering.

Once i look furthur i might find better rules but for now i'm looking at:
SHip has a stat FP (floataion points)
they come in multiples of 1000 , so a big ship might have 10,000 FP
a well built raft 1000.
And also a Dgm - Damage Minor, which is equal to 10% of FP. this repressents the damage the ship can take before it starts sinking.

and Dg - Damage. once the damage Minor is used up the damage goes into this stat.
at the end of every round the ship loses FP equal to it's current Dg.

so a ship with 5,000 FP, has Dgm 50
being fired upon by 2 light mongol (4d6 each, avg ~15 each so 30 damage per round)
could take 2rounds before it started sinking.
Carrying 10 dgm across to dg:


DG Fp-lost round
10 10 2
40 50 3
70 120 4
100 220 5
130 350 6
160 510 7
190 700 8
220 920 9
250 1170 10
280 1450 11
310 1760 12
340 2100 13
370 2470 14
400 2870 15
430 3300 16
460 3760 17
490 4250 18
520 4770 19
550 5320 20



so i would survive 20 rounds. = 2 minutes
that is under moderate bombardment. it takes 2 people to operated each Mongol.
so thats 4 peoples full round action used up constantly. for 20 rounds
if they had stopped at round 10 it would have been another 16 rounds before it had sunk.

This is good.


EDIT:
I think, that iron plating etc, will give a DR5/acid, or thicker DR10/Acid.
anything thicker that will be too heavy.

EDIT 2:
Ahh, i've found the section on combat.
Now i need to deside between my combat idea, stormwracks and Arms and armerments guide

Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 01:37 AM
Never heard of Mongols sinking ships. A Mangonel however might do some of the job.

As well as Stormwrack there are some rules for seige weapons in Heroes of Battle which might help out as well. Then of Course Arms and Armaments has some too I think.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-02, 01:59 AM
I was playing a Druid in a level 10 game a while back, I was minding my own business in my forest while the rest of the party who I was yet to meet were flying by in their airship. A second airship showed up and they started fighting, raining down burning debris on my forest, so I hopped on my dire eagle companion and flew up there to shoo them away. The two ignored me and continued to battle, so I randomly determined which one I would destroy, luckily it wasn't the rest of the party. I cast... Call Avalanche from Frostburn on the enemy airship, and it fell out of the sky and crashed to the ground. I used Summon Nature's Ally to get a Water Elemental to go douse all the fires, and that was the end of that.

A spell that causes a ten foot radius per caster level area of snow to drop out of the sky could be just as useful in a naval campaign. I doubt any ship could support 500 pounds of snow per 5-foot-by-5-foot area for long, assuming it was even able to withstand the initial impact. Everything on the deck would suffer 8d6 crushing damage, which would splinter barrels and crates and likely knock over every mast, and probably even pancake the deck into the floor below. Cometfall in SC/CD would probably be just as useful for destroying an enemy ship.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-02, 02:19 AM
I was playing a Druid in a level 10 game a while back, I was minding my own business in my forest while the rest of the party who I was yet to meet were flying by in their airship. A second airship showed up and they started fighting, raining down burning debris on my forest, so I hopped on my dire eagle companion and flew up there to shoo them away. The two ignored me and continued to battle, so I randomly determined which one I would destroy, luckily it wasn't the rest of the party. I cast... Call Avalanche from Frostburn on the enemy airship, and it fell out of the sky and crashed to the ground. I used Summon Nature's Ally to get a Water Elemental to go douse all the fires, and that was the end of that.

A spell that causes a ten foot radius per caster level area of snow to drop out of the sky could be just as useful in a naval campaign. I doubt any ship could support 500 pounds of snow per 5-foot-by-5-foot area for long, assuming it was even able to withstand the initial impact. Everything on the deck would suffer 8d6 crushing damage, which would splinter barrels and crates and likely knock over every mast, and probably even pancake the deck into the floor below. Cometfall in SC/CD would probably be just as useful for destroying an enemy ship.

A decidedly more low tech solution: Melee Brute + Adamatine Sledgehammer/Big Axe + Swim Speed or Fly Speed.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 02:36 AM
A decidedly more low tech solution: Melee Brute + Adamatine Sledgehammer/Big Axe + Swim Speed or Fly Speed.
Also, water elementals have a power specifically capable of sinking overturning ships. Doesn't seem to come up much.



obnoxious
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oxinabox
2009-07-02, 05:38 AM
Never heard of Mongols sinking ships. A Mangonel however might do some of the job.

As well as Stormwrack there are some rules for seige weapons in Heroes of Battle which might help out as well. Then of Course Arms and Armaments has some too I think.

Heroes of Battle is what i'm already using, mongol mangonel, there's all good for sacking cities. :smallredface:

Seige engine rules are from Hero's of battle Not DMG.


A spell that causes a ten foot radius per caster level area of snow to drop out of the sky could be just as useful in a naval campaign. I doubt any ship could support 500 pounds of snow per 5-foot-by-5-foot area for long, assuming it was even able to withstand the initial impact. Everything on the deck would suffer 8d6 crushing damage, which would splinter barrels and crates and likely knock over every mast, and probably even pancake the deck into the floor below. Cometfall in SC/CD would probably be just as useful for destroying an enemy ship.
Thank god, my players don't read this forum.


A decidedly more low tech solution: Melee Brute + Adamatine Sledgehammer/Big Axe + Swim Speed or Fly Speed.
Don't need admantine.
wood has hardness 5.
pretty great greataxe if it can't cut wood.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 05:59 AM
Don't need admantine.
wood has hardness 5.
pretty great greataxe if it can't cut wood.
But if you're hitting wooden objects, this means adamantine is effectively a +5 bonus to damage, and who doesn't want another +5 to their weapon?

obnoxious
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oxinabox
2009-07-02, 06:33 AM
nice.
good point.
Umm i kinow this is getting iof topic,

But what sort of penalties do you take for being on a rocking surface?
I'm putting in a free feat.
works like the Gurrila scout, and gurrilar warrior feats p97 HoB

So it lets cross class skills be purchased at 1 instead of at 2.
for 2 skills (these will be between, Proffession Siege engineer, craft shipwight, Apraise (for trade value), as well as proffesion salior)
and a other benifit:
as to the other benifit I was thinking Sealegs.
"After 1d4-1 days on a ship or floating vessal you gain your sealegs. however when you return to land for 1d4-1 days you suffer the effects someone without this feat would suffer on a ship.
When you have your sealegs you don't take any penalities for being on a rocking surface."

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-02, 06:46 AM
Check the Balance skill description.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 06:50 AM
I think complex actions require a balance check is all.
Check page 83 of Stormwrack.

There is already a feat on Stormwrack caled Sea Legs I believe.

EDIT:
:)



Sea Legs ó +2 bonus on shipboard Balance and Tumble checks, +1 initiative

Old Salt Profession (sailor) 5 ranks +1 bonus on Balance, Profession (sailor), Use Rope; predict weather

Sailorís Balance Profession (sailor) 4 ranks +5 bonus on shipboard Balance checks

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 06:57 AM
Surly there's a penalty to movement and attack? esp in rough seas.
I have really got to finish reading stormwracked

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 06:59 AM
nice.
good point.
Umm i kinow this is getting iof topic,

But what sort of penalties do you take for being on a rocking surface?

It's your thread so I don't think it's a big deal. Glancing through Stormwrack, I can see that there are balance checks listed on page 83 for things such as 'heavy surf' and 'heeling deck' at 15 and 10 respectively. It also says a heeling deck is pretty much the same as a 'sloped floor' from the PHB.

You could certainly apply a bonus for being 'on higher ground' as per combat modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm) in the SRD should the deck become angled and one opponent become elevated over another.



I'm putting in a free feat.
works like the Gurrila scout, and gurrilar warrior feats p97 HoB

So it lets cross class skills be purchased at 1 instead of at 2.
for 2 skills (these will be between, Proffession Siege engineer, craft shipwight, Apraise (for trade value), as well as proffesion salior)
and a other benifit:
as to the other benifit I was thinking Sealegs.
"After 1d4-1 days on a ship or floating vessal you gain your sealegs. however when you return to land for 1d4-1 days you suffer the effects someone without this feat would suffer on a ship.
When you have your sealegs you don't take any penalities for being on a rocking surface."

Sailor's Balance from Stormwrack grants a bonus to balance checks while on a ship as well as allowing a character to move across a slippery deck without penalty.

There's also one called Sea Legs that just gives you bonuses to balance, tumble, and initiative while on a ship. (Though I like yours.) You may want to lessen the penalty to your Sea Legs feat though, possibly based on how long the individual has spent at sea, or simply change the penalty from days to hours. Feats are supposed to be good things.

I highly recommend picking up Stormwrack for any sort of sea adventure.

obnoxious
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oxinabox
2009-07-02, 07:15 AM
I do have Stormwrack (I'm borrowing it from the gaming club at uni)
I just haven't sat down and read it.

The feat is a good thing.
It grant's the ability to buy 2 crossclass, at 1 point each.
Plus the sea legs wich are basically neutral.
Neutral + good = moderatly good.
WHich is surficent since i'm giving it away free.

I really couldn't reduce sea legs penality to hours, i've sailed a tall ship, one of my players has sailed a tall ship. we both know it takes on average 1.5 days, before you a) stop knoticing that the ship is rocking, and b) stop thinking the land is. (I've actually felt some land sickness)
1d4-1 is slightly less than 2 days.

Plus there is some time related thing.
If you get of the ship before you sealegs kick in you have no problem.
You might not have a problem anyway (if you roll a 1)
anything else would be extra work...

Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 07:15 AM
Also on a side note a character I was working on as an NPC which I just remembered I had:

Catfolk (Using LA buy-back to reduce the LA+1)

Cannot remember what point buy I used for these.
STR: 14
DEX: 22
CON: 10
INT: 15
WIS: 13
CHA: 15


Level 1: Swashbuckler 1 / Noble 1
Level 1: Agile Athlete
Flaw: Sea Legs
Swashbuckler: Weapon Finese
Level 2: Swashbuckler 2 / Noble 2
Level 3: Swashbuckler 3 / Noble 3
Level 3: Sailorís Balance
Level 4: Swashbuckler 4 / Noble 4
Level 5: Swashbuckler 5 / Noble 5
Level 6: Fighter 1 / Noble 6
Level 6: Old Salt
Fighter: Weapon Focus (Cutlass)
Noble: Leadership
Level 7: Fighter 2 / Ledgendary Captain 1
Fighter: Dodge
LC: Great Captain
Level 8: Fighter 3 / Ledgendary Captain 2
Level 9: Fighter 4 / Ledgendary Captain 3
Level 9: Daring Warrior
Fighter: Weapon Specialisation(Cutlass)

It was just an amusing idea was all. lol.
I decided that air ships rock slightly like water ships do in my campaign world I've been working on.

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 07:22 AM
That was so confusing til i realised he was Gestalt.
what did you use for cutlass stats?
I was thinking scimitar.
But ki don't know, for some reason i've always thought of them as similar

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 07:24 AM
I really couldn't reduce sea legs penality to hours, i've sailed a tall ship, one of my players has sailed a tall ship. we both know it takes on average 1.5 days, before you a) stop knoticing that the ship is rocking, and b) stop thinking the land is. (I've actually felt some land sickness)
1d4-1 is slightly less than 2 days.


That should just be an effect off sea travel, then... which it will be if you are just giving everyone the feat, I suppose.

On the other hand, these are PCs... heroes. I don't remember Sinbad ever having that problem! But I concede the point.

obnoxious
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oxinabox
2009-07-02, 07:34 AM
That should just be an effect off sea travel, then... which it will be if you are just giving everyone the feat, I suppose.

Prescisly.
Most NPC's will have it too. (living on the coast)
Anyone one who doesn't will be a true landlubbe
One of the notable people who won't will be the Knights/mercs potential crew for your ship - they can't sail, but gods can they fight.



On the other hand, these are PCs... heroes.
That's why they won't get sea sickness :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 08:20 AM
That's why they won't get sea sickness :smallbiggrin:

Lucky them. My DMs like to impose fort saves for sea sickness, teleportation sickness, air sickness...

...my characters fail these checks often enough that I don't even bother rolling any more. We teleport and HARF! There goes the warblade's lunch.

obnoxious
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Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 08:34 AM
That was so confusing til i realised he was Gestalt.
what did you use for cutlass stats?
I was thinking scimitar.
But ki don't know, for some reason i've always thought of them as similar

Cutlass is a light martial weapon listed in Stormwrack. :)

I've been on and off boats most of my life.
It only takes me a couple of hours to regain my land legs after spending some serious time on a boat and it takes me about 15 minutes to fully find my sea legs.
It really depends on the character. Which is why the Balance skill works so well.

Though once when I was working as a kitchen hand on a boat we were out for just over 6 months. Took me about 3 days to fully get my land legs again and about a month before I could lie down without feeling a rocking sensation. lol.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-02, 08:38 AM
*fireball*

Here goes the enemy ship. Seriously, read spell description; it sets fire to any flammable objects. And a 40ft fire (ship burning) is colossal so it deals an additional 8d6 fire per round to both ship and sailors.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 08:41 AM
*fireball*

Here goes the enemy ship. Seriously, read spell description; it sets fire to any flammable objects. And a 40ft fire (ship burning) is colossal so it deals an additional 8d6 fire per round to both ship and sailors.

Hence why in D&D you employ a ship's mage and a couple of underlings for him.
Dispel magic is totally awesome.

AslanCross
2009-07-02, 08:50 AM
Hence why in D&D you employ a ship's mage and a couple of underlings for him.
Dispel magic is totally awesome.

Unless you use dispel magic to counter the fireball, it won't do a darn thing to the resultant fires, since all the fireball spell does is go boom. There is no magic left to dispel. Dispel magic would take out a wall of fire, not the resultant fires of a fireball.
You're better off with create water.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 08:52 AM
*fireball*

Here goes the enemy ship. Seriously, read spell description; it sets fire to any flammable objects. And a 40ft fire (ship burning) is colossal so it deals an additional 8d6 fire per round to both ship and sailors.

Stormwrack page 29 specifically mentions that you can indeed set a ship on fire with a fireball. But remember to pillage before you burn! The ship doesn't even get a save unless it's got some sort of magical augmentation.

Where are you getting the 8d6 fire damage from? The Catching on Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#catchingOnFire) entry in the SRD doesn't make any reference to fire dealing more damage based on the size of the blaze.

The Forest Fire section of the Wilderness entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm) mentions treating a colossal fire as a creature for the purposes of spot checks, but it references Catching on Fire for damage.


Unless you use dispel magic to counter the fireball, it won't do a darn thing to the resultant fires, since all the fireball spell does is go boom. There is no magic left to dispel. Dispel magic would take out a wall of fire, not the resultant fires of a fireball.
You're better off with create water.
This is correct. Fires started by magical means become mundane fires. Though I'd recommend keeping a few easy-use items of quench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/quench.htm) around for such emergencies rather than create water. In a nautical D&D world, such items would probably be as common as healing potions. (I know, a non-buffing druid spell, but there must be SOME druid out there who's willing to prepare it.)

obnoxious
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oxinabox
2009-07-02, 09:01 AM
*fireball*

Here goes the enemy ship. Seriously, read spell description; it sets fire to any flammable objects. And a 40ft fire (ship burning) is colossal so it deals an additional 8d6 fire per round to both ship and sailors.

I Can't see any reason why you would use dispel magic to not counterspell the fireball.
fireball has instantaneous duration (well standard action) it's not like flaming sphere.

Anyway, i for see that in a fantasy world most ships will be spelled against fire.
only the poorest fishing scrag wouldn't.


I've been on and off boats most of my life.
It only takes me a couple of hours to regain my land legs after spending some serious time on a boat and it takes me about 15 minutes to fully find my sea legs.
It really depends on the character. Which is why the Balance skill works so well.
I see, I bow down to you superior experience, with the assumption it was a tall ship or some other ship that has regualry rocks through 20 deg, under normal conditions.
A large mast make you kinda top heavy compared to a dingy, though i doubt you speak of a dingy.
The characters as there background will explicitly state they are privateers would have long term sailing experience.
I very muchly take you point with the balance thing.

maybe i should instead have the +2 to balance.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 09:04 AM
I Can't see any reason why you would use dispel magic to not counterspell the fireball.
fireball has instantaneous duration (well standard action) it's not like flaming sphere.

Realistically, it would be far more common for ship's mages to counter fireballs with fireballs, since it's likely each would have such a spell at the ready and countering spells in such a way has no chance of failure.


Anyway, i for see that in a fantasy world most ships will be spelled against fire. only the poorest fishing scrag wouldn't.
The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook lists the cost of including a spell permanently into part of a stronghold as 500gp x spell level x caster level. (Or 1000gp x spell level x caster level for an object which is 'bulky but still technically movable such as a statue'. I'm unsure which to use for a ship. You may even want to split the ship into parts and use the 500g base to apply it to hull/deck/masts/etc). Resist Energy would be ideal for this as even at its lowest level it provides energy resistance 10, which is enough to prevent any and all damage from mundane fire, though the initial blast of a fireball would still cause some damage. And while I think fire should have specific interactions with wood, by RAW electricity and fire only deal half damage to most objects before applying hardness. (Yes, by RAW fire deals 1d6/2 damage per round to a wooden object and the wooden object has a hardness of 5...)

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook also includes the spell Augment Object which could easily be made permanent via permanency but already has a duration of one day per CL. One could also use the wondrous architecture rules I referenced above from the same book to make it permanent. The spell doubles hardness and hitpoints of an object of up to 200 cubic feet per CL.


maybe i should instead have the +2 to balance.

In that case, you could just use the Sea Legs feat from the book which grants a +2 bonus to balance as well as other things.

obnoxious
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Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 09:15 AM
Well yes..obviously I meant to counter the spell with it.
Also not all ships mages have fireballs. Some focus on water/wind spells instead.

So they could use dispel magic to counter the fire spell and then a water spell to douse the flames. Though crew can douse flames manually as well if the battle is tough.

I think there are rules to make fire resistant hulls somewhere as well, which can help in such instances.

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 09:30 AM
In that case, you should just use the Sea Legs feat from the book.


No, i shouldn't because this also

...lets cross class skills be purchased at 1 instead of at 2.
for 2 skills (these will be between, Profession Siege engineer, craft shipwight, Appraise (for trade value), as well as profession sailor, edit: profession fisherman )
and a other benifit:

I'ld probably sell fire resistance (assuming no one is a mage that will use xp to cast spells with permanency) by the barrel.
3000 gp: this is a barrel of fire resistant oil. it is made both arcane and mundane fire retardants, it confer's fire resistance 15. it lasts for 6d20 days. (knowledge nature to know how close to wearing off it currently is)
no mundane fire will burn on somethiung treated by this wood.

Fireball has same spell leval as dispel, ansd dispel con do so much more

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 09:37 AM
No, i shouldn't
I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Apparently there are rules for catching ships on fire on page 31 of Stormwrack. Ships get 'fire checks' when they are subject to something which may catch them on fire.

There is some contradictory text here that says 'spells that cause an instantaneous blast of fire don't usually catch inanimate objects on fire' even though some of the spells listed previously in the book as having the capability of lighting ships on fire have instantaneous durations (such as fireball). The section has specific rules for putting out fires with both create water and quench.

I figure the fireball spell would be covered under the last bit on the table there, which would set the DC for a mundane ship to avoid fire at the normal save DC, though this is an unmodified roll unless the ship is specifically prepared for battle (wetted sails, buckets of water or sand on hand) in which case grants a +4 bonus.

obnoxious
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Choco
2009-07-02, 11:43 AM
Seas of Blood has rules for everything you are considering. You should definitely check that book out if you are running a nautical campaign, that's what it was designed for :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2009-07-02, 11:58 AM
I figure the fireball spell would be covered under the last bit on the table there, which would set the DC for a mundane ship to avoid fire at the normal save DC, though this is an unmodified roll unless the ship is specifically prepared for battle (wetted sails, buckets of water or sand on hand) in which case grants a +4 bonus.

obnoxious
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It should be noted that under standard object damage rules it is actually impossible to burn down a ship. Mundane fire does 1d6 damage per round, fire does half damage to objects before hardness is applied, and hardness applies normally to energy damage. The result is the most fire damage you can get is 3, which is reduced to 0 by hardness. Your ship can be merrily burning forever with no ill effect at all (although the crew may be somewhat discomforted.)

At least, that's how it works under the default of giving every 5-foot segment its own HP. There are a number of alternate ways to resolve ship fires that are less silly (quick and dirty: total the damage from every 5-foot square that is on fire. Apply hardness once, apply the damage to overall ship's HP.)

fusilier
2009-07-02, 12:11 PM
I'm curious to hear what rules you come up with (or find, or settle on), for sinking ships.

I imagine that it's not really the amount of damage done to the ship, but how much damage was done in a single blow. A lot of little strikes that compromise seaworthiness would eventually cause the ship to sink, but probably slowly (although there may be little the crew can do to patch all the holes). Whereas one major blow, like from a ram, could cause the ship to sink rapidly, or, worse yet, capsize. Old ships were not built with water-tight compartments and capsizing would probably cause them to sink really quickly. If the keel is broken, the ship will probably collapse and also sink quickly.

Having said all that, the USS Tecumseh hit a mine in Mobile Bay in 1864 and sank in about 30 seconds (although the wikipedia entry for the battle says 2 or 3 minutes -- I suppose it could have sank in about 30 seconds from the time the crew realized the ship was sinking??). The Tecumseh was an ironclad monitor, which meant it was mostly underwater to begin with. So in terms of how long it takes a ship to sink, in most cases it probably takes at least several minutes even for a heavily damaged ship.

MickJay
2009-07-02, 12:25 PM
Just for the record, if you'll be using galleys (biremes or triremes for example) you might want to consider that these types of ship were practically unsinkable. If the hull was pierced, the ship would simply become more immersed in (and filled with) water, but the buoyancy of wood would keep it afloat (usually there simply wasn't enough heavy materials on board to drag the ship down). If the circumstances allowed, such "wrecks" would be towed after the battle to a port, where they could be repaired and used again (or they would simply be disassembled for the wood).

fusilier
2009-07-02, 12:28 PM
Yeah, I've heard it was often cheaper to build a fleet of galleys when they were needed, then to maintain one for any length of time. The big problem was that the crews had to be well trained.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 12:33 PM
It should be noted that under standard object damage rules it is actually impossible to burn down a ship. Mundane fire does 1d6 damage per round, fire does half damage to objects before hardness is applied, and hardness applies normally to energy damage. The result is the most fire damage you can get is 3, which is reduced to 0 by hardness. Your ship can be merrily burning forever with no ill effect at all (although the crew may be somewhat discomforted.)

At least, that's how it works under the default of giving every 5-foot segment its own HP. There are a number of alternate ways to resolve ship fires that are less silly (quick and dirty: total the damage from every 5-foot square that is on fire. Apply hardness once, apply the damage to overall ship's HP.)

In the case of ships, fire seems to do slightly more damage...


If the affected ship equals or betters the DC, it is not set on fire...
When a ship catches fire, half the squares exposed to the attack ignite...dealing 2d6 points of damage per round to that hull section and and any character who enters...

One might rule that fire damage bypasses the hardness of 'flammable' items and/or deals full damage, but of course that would be a houserule. Well done, Wizards. :smallconfused:

The fire can burn out on its own, not change, or spread based on a roll of percentile dice. Rules for putting out fires, penalties for damaged or destroyed hull sections, and sinking follow that.

Unfortunately, previously on page 28, fire is still listed as dealing half damage to the ship. Additionally, the rules here state that hull sections still benefit from hardness even against fire. A hull has 5 hardness. Maximum half damage of 2d6 is 12, halved for being fire is 6, minus hardness is 1. A reinforced hull has a hardness of 6, meaning it is indeed completely immune to damage from normal fire. So you're still right, Tyckspook.

Aside from gross incompetence, the only solution I can come up with is that the hardness is meant to only apply once for any given hull section. So if multiple squares of a hull section are on fire, some damage may actually be dealt.

The immunity of the ship itself doesn't necessarily mean that the rigging, sails, and other parts of the ship cannot be burned, but it does mean that your typical ship can burn for a very long time. If left unchecked, the fire could certainly kill everyone on board, but with an average of 1 damage every 36 rounds to any given flaming square, I don't think it would be a stretch to say it could take days or even weeks for a ship to burn. And that's just silly.

Note for OP: I happened across 'heeling and listing' modifiers for characters on deck on page 20.

obnoxious
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MickJay
2009-07-02, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I've heard it was often cheaper to build a fleet of galleys when they were needed, then to maintain one for any length of time. The big problem was that the crews had to be well trained.

Oh definitely, an average trireme, during the period of Athenian domination in the Greek world, cost about 1 talent of silver to build, another to equip (sails were the most expensive, there were also some metal elements necessary, plus ropes etc.), and 12 talents a year to pay the crew of 200 men. The ships didn't cost anything to maintain when they were not manned, when they were needed, they were patched up and the crew was assembled.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-02, 08:04 PM
Also the way the o0ld ships were made the wood was heavily treated.
Otherwise the wood would soak up all that water and the ship would lose it's boyancy.

So I think the fire damage rules are pretty accurate.

It is only later ships which had special hulls that meant the wood was not treated so heavily (to save costs and speed up production time) when fires became a huge problem.

I would simply rule that hardness can only reduce fire damage to a minimum of 1 per round and leave it at that. Which means mundane fire will only slowly be a problem unless the masts or sails catch alight. Fire balls still hurt, though not too badly to a decent sized war ship.

This means that mangonels are still the best way to sink a ship. Which is how it should be. :)

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 10:15 PM
I'm curious to hear what rules you come up with (or find, or settle on), for sinking ships.


...for now i'm looking at:
SHip has a stat FP (floataion points)
they come in multiples of 1000 , so a big ship might have 10,000 FP
a well built raft 1000.
And also a Dgm - Damage Minor, which is equal to 10% of FP. this repressents the damage the ship can take before it starts sinking.

and Dg - Damage. once the damage Minor is used up the damage goes into this stat.
at the end of every round the ship loses FP equal to it's current Dg.

so a ship with 5,000 FP, has Dgm 50
being fired upon by 2 light mongol (4d6 each, avg ~15 each so 30 damage per round)
could take 2rounds before it started sinking.
Carrying 10 dgm across to dg:


DG Fp-lost round
10 10 2
40 50 3
70 120 4
100 220 5
130 350 6
160 510 7
190 700 8
220 920 9
250 1170 10
280 1450 11
310 1760 12
340 2100 13
370 2470 14
400 2870 15
430 3300 16
460 3760 17
490 4250 18
520 4770 19
550 5320 20



so i would survive 20 rounds. = 2 minutes
that is under moderate bombardment. it takes 2 people to operated each Mongol.
so thats 4 peoples full round action used up constantly. for 20 rounds
if they had stopped at round 10 it would have been another 16 rounds before it had sunk.

This is good.



There are Also rule in stormwrack and Arms and equipment guide.

Storm wrack works by breaking the hull it to seperaste sections, i don't know how many have to be destroyed to sink it.

Min works on total damage.

Haven't looked at arms and armorments guide.

Wow i had hardly thought about fire.
I'ld probably (this is purely without looking at any rules) that for mundane fire on a ship.
(this is without any resistances or DRs) does 1d6 damage (unless it's an opil fire, then it does 2d6) to everything in the square (including the wood).
each round it roll a d20: 1-8 means try to expand in to thats number of squares (must make a d20 vs fireresistance check, to actually catch alight) otherwise does nothing.

But that's withough even looking at anyrules what so ever