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Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 04:58 AM
pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-02, 05:02 AM
Scythe. Definitely.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 05:19 AM
My vote to mercurial greatsword. 2d6 is reliable and in case the enemy is vulnerable to crits, x4 can turn a combat.

Probably there are better ones, but..

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-02, 05:25 AM
My vote to mercurial greatsword. 2d6 is reliable and in case the enemy is vulnerable to crits, x4 can turn a combat.

Probably there are better ones, but..

Yes, but you're wasting an EWP feat for 2 extra damage. Scythe is also slashing, two-handed, has a x4 critical multiplier and deals 2d4 damage.

Also, Scythe can make trip attacks.

bosssmiley
2009-07-02, 05:30 AM
Greatsword (2-12 + 1+1/2Str, 19-20, x2), or Greataxe (1-12 + 1+1/2Str, 20, x3).

Eschew the false allure of exotica, and put aside twinkish ways. Walk forevermore in the path of hack'n'slash-ish righteousness.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:31 AM
so 8d4 versus 4d6? yeah I think scythe is better in terms of crits and trips are good from what I know. however how many criticals do I really have a chance of getting? also somebody mentioned some form of hammer that deals 3d6.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:32 AM
Greatsword (2-12 + 1+1/2Str, 19-20, x2), or Greataxe (1-12 + 1+1/2Str, 20, x3).

Eschew the false allure of exotica, and put aside twinkish ways. Walk forevermore in the path of hack'n'slash-ish righteousness.

wait. greatsword gets 2d12?:smallconfused: or am I reading that wrong?

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-02, 05:35 AM
also somebody mentioned some form of hammer that deals 3d6.

Greathammer. It only deals 3d6 damage for Large creatures or medium creatures with Powerful Build. It also has x4 critical multiplier, is bludgeoning and gives bonuses to sunder. Sadly, it's an Exotic Weapon.

Also, you're reading it wrong. It deals damage between 2 and 12 inclusive, not 2d12.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:44 AM
Greathammer. It only deals 3d6 damage for Large creatures or medium creatures with Powerful Build. It also has x4 critical multiplier, is bludgeoning and gives bonuses to sunder. Sadly, it's an Exotic Weapon.

Also, you're reading it wrong. It deals damage between 2 and 12 inclusive, not 2d12.

okay. otherwise I'd be using that.

oxinabox
2009-07-02, 05:44 AM
Greatsword, you just can't beat 2d6, crit 19-20/x2 no exotic proficiency required.
much better than greatAx - 1d12, crit x3. because 2d5 has the bellcurve probablity.
2d6 normally around 7, minimum 2
1d12 equally likly to be 1 as it is to be 12.

if you want to spend a feat then maybe fullblade, 2d8 crit 19-20/x2.

two Bastard Swords 1d10, with the oversided two weopon weilder from complete adventurer, is a cool idea, if you have full round actions to use though.


I likethe idea of the Warfan: your enemies must make a sensemotive vs your bluff to realise it's a weopon (until you use it), granting you a +4 to attack if they fail. but it's only a 1d6.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 05:54 AM
Yes, but you're wasting an EWP feat for 2 extra damage. Scythe is also slashing, two-handed, has a x4 critical multiplier and deals 2d4 damage.

Also, Scythe can make trip attacks.

Yeah true. Our group uses Weapon Categories so you can take EWP for free at level 1 if you BAB is +1. I have to admit that my judgement is not balanced.

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 05:59 AM
Falchion is also a contender due to 18-20/x2 criticals, which in practice means a lot of multiplications (really nice for characters with high base damage modifiers).

Oerthblood Greatsword deals strictly the most damage though.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 06:01 AM
Oerthblood Greatsword deals strictly the most damage though.

Wasn't oerthblood a debuffer agains spell saves? :smallconfused:

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 06:04 AM
Wasn't oerthblood a debuffer agains spell saves? :smallconfused:

That and +1 Luck to hit & damage.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 06:06 AM
That and +1 Luck to hit & damage.

Didn't remember this. Wow. Even better than Baatorian Greensteel, unless you have a luck bonus from another source.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 06:45 AM
Well, assuming I'm not making some grave error, if you're looking for average damage output you can do the following:

Find the average damage of the weapon, which is one-half the highest die value plus 0.5.
Example (Scythe): (Add values together if using multiple dice) The average of 1d4 is 2.5, so the average of 2d4 is 5.

Find the average critical damage.
Example (Scythe): 2d4x4 is 8d4 for an average of 20.

Multiply the average critical damage by the chance to critical.
Example (Scythe): A Scythe only criticals on a 20, which is 5%. 0.05 x 20 is 1.

Add that value to the average damage.
In this case the total would be 6.

So, over time, the average damage of a scythe is 6
The average damage of a greatsword is 8.4
The average damage of a greataxe is 7.475
The average damage of a falchion is 6.5

You do have to take strength bonuses into account. If you have a +4 strength bonus (which is of course +6 damage with a 2-hander), for example, the greatsword's average becomes 14.3 and the greataxe's become 14.375.

I'm sure someone will point out that I'm missing something, but this seems to work.

obnoxious
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Indon
2009-07-02, 07:16 AM
And the Scythe's average damage turns into 13.2, at +4 strength bonus.

At a Strength of 30 (Str bonus +10, +15 with a 2-hander):

Greataxe:24.725
Scythe:24

So it would seem the Scythe would pull ahead as strength increases, but it takes a very great deal of strength indeed.

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 07:34 AM
stuff

I'm not sure this works, as the exact numbers really depend on the AC you're attacking. This is especially true for varying critical ranges.

But yeah, .05*0+.9025*damage+.0475*crit should get you the average damage vs. AC 0 (accounting only for natural misses).


For scythe, that'd be .9025*5+.0475*20=5.4625 vs. Greatsword's .855*7+.095*14=7.315.

I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

EDIT: But yeah, it's obvious that weapons with higher critical factor (that is, higher critical multiplier or critical chance; the effect of multiplier vs. chance should be identical) benefit more of high damage bonuses.

Indon
2009-07-02, 07:48 AM
I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

I think it about breaks even - normal hits don't always hit, but criticals aren't always confirmed either - and since confirming a critical requires a hit, the hit/critical ratio should be about even for any target.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 08:01 AM
I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

EDIT: But yeah, it's obvious that weapons with higher critical factor (that is, higher critical multiplier or critical chance; the effect of multiplier vs. chance should be identical) benefit more of high damage bonuses.

I was kind of thinking that, myself, but I think it helps account for critical damage/chance in weapon choices. I had hopes that someone who knew what they were doing would post a more accurate equation :smallbiggrin:.

You can't ignore critical range and damage multipliers in weapon consideration completely, since it WILL factor in at some point. A weapon with a critical range of 20/x2 (against an AC of 0, yes) will do double damage roughly 5% of the time (though it won't always confirm so I guess that does indeed throw it off.) I included it because I was trying to look at average damage over a long period.

I don't think you need to take armor class into consideration unless you're also taking power attack into consideration, since it's going to have the same effect regardless of weapon damage.

obnoxious
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Fitz
2009-07-02, 08:03 AM
ok its situational but i'll put a offside call for the lance, the automatic x2 damage for charging means it gets a lot of bonus out of a charge , add in some feats and so on and you can rapidly rack up the damage (got a level 8 character up to a potential 189 damage on a crit when charging: for those looking at averages the standard damage worked out at 3d8 + 64 +3d6 +4d6 acid, required only 2 rounds buffing on a 32 point buy character)

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 08:06 AM
ok its situational but i'll put a offside call for the lance, the automatic x2 damage for charging means it gets a lot of bonus out of a charge , add in some feats and so on and you can rapidly rack up the damage (got a level 8 character up to a potential 189 damage on a crit when charging: for those looking at averages the standard damage worked out at 3d8 + 64 +3d6 +4d6 acid, required only 2 rounds buffing on a 32 point buy character)

Uberchargers don't count!

Also, are you doubling the acid damage? Normally when multiplying damage you multiply only the base dice of the weapon and any static bonuses (+2, +3, etc), not any extra dice of damage (such as sneak attack or flaming). This is why 'burst' weapons specifically state that they have an extra effect on a critical hit.

You're right about the charge, though. Since you're going to need to advance into combat at least once, a lance isn't a bad choice even if you only use it for the initial charge and then quickdraw something else.

obnoxious
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Eldariel
2009-07-02, 08:15 AM
I was kind of thinking that, myself, but I think it helps account for critical damage/chance in weapon choices. I had hopes that someone who knew what they were doing would post a more accurate equation :smallbiggrin:.

You can't ignore critical range and damage multipliers in weapon consideration completely, since it WILL factor in at some point. A weapon with a critical range of 20/x2 (against an AC of 0, yes) will do double damage roughly 5% of the time (though it won't always confirm so I guess that does indeed throw it off.) I included it because I was trying to look at average damage over a long period.

That's why I posted what I use; take percentage of the damage that's dealt as normal damage, percentage that's dealt as critical damage and add them up. It basically cuts 5% of the standard damage off from your calculations.


I don't think you need to take armor class into consideration unless you're also taking power attack into consideration, since it's going to have the same effect regardless of weapon damage.

The relevant difference is that critical confirmation varies; the weapons that rely more on critical hits (such as the Scythe or the Falchion) for their damage output are hurt more by higher crit confirmation difficulty, because it's going to cut into the critical hit frequency and the weapons that rely on criticals are most hurt by that.

So if one wants to account for criticals, one has to account for AC too. I mean, sure you could do 95%*standard + 5%*critical calculations (or well, X% dependent on critical range), but those favour critical-heavy weapons over what would happen in a game.

Fitz
2009-07-02, 09:34 AM
ok stripping out the psychic warrior stuff
Lvl 2 fighter can get 3d8 (spirited charge) +18 (strength wielded 2 handed kontos style) +1d6 (powerful charge)
Or add 9 for full power attack.
None of this needs a crit.
As you say though you need other options as on foot its a pretty tame d8 reach weapon
Fitz

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 09:41 AM
Hmmm, no one has mentioned Unarmed Strike. Completely ignoring magical enhancements to the weapon, the Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks are some of the easiest damage types to scale up, as evident in most King of Smack builds. Who cares that you are only getting +1x str bonus and 1:1 power attack when you are swinging 64d6 hamfists!

ericgrau
2009-07-02, 09:42 AM
Falchion. Same average damage as the scythe, but more consistent. More average damage than the greatsword after you count crits and the improved crit feat (or keen edge spell or scabbard of keen edges or etc.). No proficiency feat.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 09:44 AM
Hmmm, no one has mentioned Unarmed Strike. Completely ignoring magical enhancements to the weapon, the Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks are some of the easiest damage types to scale up, as evident in most King of Smack builds. Who cares that you are only getting +1x str bonus and 1:1 power attack when you are swinging 64d6 hamfists!

You can't power attack with an unarmed strike, since it is considered a light weapon, even for monks. :smallfrown:


Falchion. Same average damage as the scythe, but more consistent. More average damage than the greatsword after you count crits and the improved crit feat (or keen edge spell or scabbard of keen edges or etc.). No proficiency feat.
I have to second the falchion.

obnoxious
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ZeroNumerous
2009-07-02, 09:57 AM
pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

Straight out damage? Fullblade. 3d6 at medium size.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 10:00 AM
Straight out damage? Fullblade. 3d6 at medium size.

Doesn't that require exotic proficiency though?

obnoxious
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Curmudgeon
2009-07-02, 10:09 AM
pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output. If you really mean "without going into abilities", you have to remember that every weapon requires some sort of proficiency. The only weapons that every base class is proficient in are the club, dagger, and crossbow (light/heavy). So obviously the answer is the heavy crossbow at 1d10 damage.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 10:11 AM
Doesn't that require exotic proficiency though?

obnoxious
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The fullblade is tricky. You have two options:

- Consider it a sword of a larger size and so consider monkey grip (:smallamused:) to wield it. Yes, 3d6.

- Follow the flavour text, consider it a "2-hands and an half", updating it to 3.5 but keeping the 2d8 (increase of one size the d10 of bastar sword - 1H and an half sword", and you have 2d8).

It needs 2 hands, but if you increase your size and make it golden, maybe it's not optimized but you wield a BFS.

ex cathedra
2009-07-02, 10:12 AM
Weapon crit modifiers and special abilities matter much more once strength and miscellaneous modifiers start stacking up; when you're doing +112 damage on a PA you'll really rather have an 18-20 or 4x weapon, when the difference between 2d6 and 2d4 won't compare in the least.

Though this falls somewhere out of the vicinity of the 'mundane', I'm going to suggest you grab a Kaorti Fachion/Elven Courtblade. Both require EWP. Both are 18-20/x4 before keen. The second is finessable and two-handed, though. Since Kaorti resin likely won't be availiable until late (if at all) in any campaign, I'd go with falchion.

Fitz
2009-07-02, 10:44 AM
exotic weapons mean sacrificing a feat, so you have to work out if the benifits outweigh power attack, leap attack or similar?
Since multipliers or threat range are avaliable as martial ewp shines when it provides something extra like the spiked chain (10' reach without loosing 5' , trip disarm bonus etc) even then some of these are avaliable as martial wpns.
Martial weapons are free prof for martial classes, of course best for a fighter is not going to automatically be best for a cleric

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 10:51 AM
You can't power attack with an unarmed strike, since it is considered a light weapon, even for monks. :smallfrown:


You can ALWAYS Power Attack with natural weapons, and its always a 1:1 unless you have that one feat from a Dragon Mag that dictates otherwise. Even if a weapon gets 1.5x (like a dragon's tail slap), it still only gets 1:1 PA. A Monk's UAS is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, whichever is most advantageous in the circumstance, and thusly allows for PA.



Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

Emphasis mine.

ex cathedra
2009-07-02, 11:12 AM
light mace by far, one improved crit, lightning mace, the TWF tree, and 7 levels of disciple of dispater later

feat/class intensive but so so good.

You forgot two 18-20 weapons of Aptitude.

Edit: from before the message was deleted. It isn't core, but it's a decent strategy, even without the DoD levels. Assuming level 12-ish, averages 1-3 extra attacks depending on AB/opposing AC. Not core, but the point remains.

Justin B.
2009-07-02, 11:21 AM
I suggest you examine the characters background information and personality and decide which is most suitable for him.

If he's afraid of getting injured, go with Reach.

If he likes to intimidate, go with the Scythe.

If he's big and strong and likes to smash stuff alot, go with Greataxe.

If he's more civilized, go with the Greatsword.

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 11:51 AM
I suggest you examine the characters background information and personality and decide which is most suitable for him.

If he wants to force all opponents to face him, go with Reach.

If he likes spectacular head-severing strikes, go with the Scythe.

If he's a Dwarf and likes to smash stuff alot, go with Greataxe.

If he's non-Dwarf and likes to smash stuff alot, go with the Greatsword.

Fixed. :smalltongue:

Lord Denyuar
2009-07-02, 11:54 AM
Mercurial Fullblade, if you go by text, should still only take 1 feat.

Justin B.
2009-07-02, 11:57 AM
Fixed. :smalltongue:

Your grasp of the underlying message in posts continues to astound me, however, you forgot that it is also acceptable to use the Greataxe if you're a Half-orc who wants to smash stuff.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 12:19 PM
I have to second the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. 2d6, 19-20x4. Yeah, it's exotic, but geting expanded threat on a x4 weapon before you toss in Impacting...yeah. :smallamused:

Telonius
2009-07-02, 12:44 PM
exotic weapons mean sacrificing a feat...

Not exactly. They require sacrificing a whole bunch of skill points and the trade-offs between a level the class you would otherwise take, and the Master of Masks PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3). In practice, this means sacrificing one feat for the Fighter, or the capstone for everybody else. (Rogue basically sacrifices nothing).

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-02, 12:44 PM
IF's calculations work for this purpose. When trying to figure out something else, like how much Power Attack to use, AC is critical.

In core, masterwork greatsword wins. I don't have many non-core weapon books, though...

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-02, 12:55 PM
You can ALWAYS Power Attack with natural weapons, and its always a 1:1 unless you have that one feat from a Dragon Mag that dictates otherwise. Even if a weapon gets 1.5x (like a dragon's tail slap), it still only gets 1:1 PA. A Monk's UAS is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, whichever is most advantageous in the circumstance, and thusly allows for PA.
Emphasis mine.

Well look at that. I have been known to be wrong before. This is what I get for relying on the memory of my DM telling me no rather than looking it up myself.

Unless I'm mistaken again, this brings up a funny situation. A gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack (but it lets you do lethal damage without the feat) and therefore qualifies for use with PA. A spiked gauntlet, on the other hand (pun intended), is a light weapon, considered an armed attack and cannot be used to power attack.

You wouldn't happen to know the name of the feat from Dragon Magazine or perhaps the issue it was in, do you?

obnoxious
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Talon Sky
2009-07-02, 12:55 PM
Gotta say the scythe and falchion are both really close for top contender for my suggestion here. You could begin battle with a scythe, and quickdraw the falchion when the enemies close in.

Trips can be very useful....coup de grace, or sending enemies toppling off a cliff, for example.

woodenbandman
2009-07-02, 12:55 PM
Goliath Greathammer. really anything with a 2d6/x4. Mercurial Greatsword fits the bill.

Insert Name Here
2009-07-02, 12:56 PM
The talenta sharrash from Eberron campaign setting is a reach weapon with a 19-20/x4 crit, doing 1d10 damage. It also can be used to make trip attacks.

It does, however, require exotic weapon proficiency.

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 01:00 PM
The talenta sharrash from Eberron campaign setting is a reach weapon with a 19-20/x4 crit, doing 1d10 damage.

Has been Errata'd to x2 critical. It was a missprint.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 01:19 PM
by no abilities I meant no magic abilities. so no +1 acid greatsword no +5 starmetal or anything like that. just normal and masterwork.

Toliudar
2009-07-02, 01:27 PM
All things considered, I've got to go with bite. Okay, not so good with the crits, but reliable, and tough to disarm.


Giant Crocodile: 2d8
Cachalot Whale: 4d6
Twelve-headed hydra: 12 x 2d6

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 01:35 PM
okay now a question. how is my character supposed to wield a hydra?

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 01:35 PM
by no abilities I meant no magic abilities. so no +1 acid greatsword no +5 starmetal or anything like that. just normal and masterwork.

Oerthblood isn't magic; it's a material just as Adamantine, Cold Iron or Alchemical Silver. Hence it's a fair game and thus Oerthblood X wins out, where X is the standard strongest weapon. That said, the answer depends on circumstances and character in question.

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 01:38 PM
okay now a question. how is my character supposed to wield a hydra?

This is a question best left unanswered....

Telonius
2009-07-02, 01:40 PM
Drunken Master, improvised weapon. :smallbiggrin:

Deepblue706
2009-07-02, 01:47 PM
This totally depends on what level you're looking at.

At level 1 the Flail is good, because it is highly versatile. d8 Bludgeoning damage means you can penetrate some early-game DR (i.e. Skeletons) and can sunder. The Flail can also be used to trip, has a +2 to disarm, and being one-handed means you can use a shield (which is pretty useful at level 1). Or, if you decide you don't need the AC at the moment, drop the shield and go two-handed.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 01:53 PM
I'm level 2, 800 exp to level three and am currently wielding a greatsword. I think a greatsword is two handed so I don't have a shield. and I'm a half elf paladin of freedom and plan on getting the hellreaver prestige class at level 5. I realize there are better prestige classes but the DM doesn't want any player to be too powerful. although why he's letting a player be a druid with that rule I'll never know. granted she is a newbie and I think his girlfriend

Frosty
2009-07-02, 02:08 PM
If we're taking proficiency requirements into account, then a lot of weapons are just tossed out, even unarmed strike. Remember: The druid, wizard, and monk are not proficient with Unarmed Strikes because they don't have Simple Weapon Proficiency.

Xenogears
2009-07-02, 02:12 PM
If we're taking proficiency requirements into account, then a lot of weapons are just tossed out, even unarmed strike. Remember: The druid, wizard, and monk are not proficient with Unarmed Strikes because they don't have Simple Weapon Proficiency.

For the Monk unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon whenever convenient. So either they are proficient based on that or you have to say that all monsters that use natural attacks are not proficient with their natural attacks.

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 02:13 PM
I'm level 2, 800 exp to level three and am currently wielding a greatsword. I think a greatsword is two handed so I don't have a shield. and I'm a half elf paladin of freedom and plan on getting the hellreaver prestige class at level 5.

Keep with your plan. Hellreaver is actually a VERY good PrC, and a Greatsword is a perfectly find weapon, one of the best non-exotic weapons in the game.

Everything's lookin good.

Fitz
2009-07-02, 02:13 PM
ok you are already on a greatsword, it is a good enough weapon,
possibly have a lance and flail or scythe as situational back-up but to be honest the feats and abilities and how the weapon is used probably makes a lot more difference, if you go 2 handed leap attack really all that matters is that you either have a good threat range (consistent) or a high multiplier (better potential) which is down to personal preference (how much you gamble on getting a lucky hit)
beyond that it is the side bonus' that make the weapon (trip/disarm bonus and/or reach for a melee class, finessable/2 wpn avaliable for rogue/ranger defnsive for mage (should be using magic anyway ;-) Druids use claws/ animal companions and cleric really should use the deities favoured weapon)

Fitz

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 02:22 PM
okay. a lot of people's debates seem to be talking about the monk. let me spell it out for you

I'M A PALADIN!

my DM has given me a hint I'll be getting a scythe near the end of the adventure so that's good.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-02, 02:24 PM
For the Monk unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon whenever convenient. So either they are proficient based on that or you have to say that all monsters that use natural attacks are not proficient with their natural attacks.

Actually, humanoids are not proficient with their natural attacks unless it's explicitly said in their entry that they are.

All other types gain proficiency with their natural attacks.

Humans don't even have an entry.

Darrin
2009-07-02, 02:28 PM
Hmmm, no one has mentioned Unarmed Strike. Completely ignoring magical enhancements to the weapon, the Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks are some of the easiest damage types to scale up, as evident in most King of Smack builds. Who cares that you are only getting +1x str bonus and 1:1 power attack when you are swinging 64d6 hamfists!

A normal non-monk Unarmed Strike only does 1d3 nonlethal damage. Taking monk levels... well, let's just say it generally doesn't improve things. Also, to get up to 64d6 usually involves quite a bit of magic/psionics.


You can't power attack with an unarmed strike, since it is considered a light weapon, even for monks. :smallfrown:


Read Power Attack again. There's an exception for unarmed strikes and natural attacks:



You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks)

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 02:32 PM
can you please take the debate about monk unarmed strikes elsewhere? it's completely irrelevant.

Talon Sky
2009-07-02, 03:36 PM
can you please take the debate about monk unarmed strikes elsewhere? it's completely irrelevant.

No. This is the internet. Lol

Also, I thought half-elves couldn't be Paladins? Just wondering.... ;p

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 03:38 PM
Also, I thought half-elves couldn't be Paladins? Just wondering.... ;p

They can, but they can't wield greatswords (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-692629).

For anyone who doesn't get the reference, read the thread. Its one of the most hillarious derailments in WotC forums history. A little culture will do you young wippersnappers good.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-02, 05:10 PM
can you please take the debate about monk unarmed strikes elsewhere? it's completely irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant to the title of your thread, and your original post. They're answering what you asked, which is what is the best non-magical weapon in core which is unarmed attacks.

Now if you had asked what is the best weapon for (this class) under (these conditions) with plans (for this PrC) then yes, you'd have a right to complain :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-07-02, 05:11 PM
pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds of lead tossed by a hulking hurler.
Alternatively, in some extreme cases, the moon.

Finally, I didn't see it mentioned in my skim:
The humble wooden lance.
x3 damage on a spirited charge? Yes, because I can't see how that's relevant ;)

You cannot neglect abilities in selecting a weapon, because abilities and the intent that you use the weapon with absolutely determine its damage output as well as its tactical relevance. I mean, would you use a Lance in a chain tripper build? Or a Ritiik on a charger?

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 05:13 PM
Alternatively, in some extreme cases, the moon.

Pshhh...who uses a moon as a weapon? Seriously? It can't even bypass DR/Silver. What a worthless weapon!

:P

Doc Roc
2009-07-02, 05:14 PM
Herm, I think it technically has enough silver oxide in it that at least some hunks of it will bypass dr/silver. Alternatively, it may count as an epic weapon, which I seem to remember screws with normal DR.

Mo_the_Hawked
2009-07-02, 05:26 PM
The Greatsword sounds like it's the best option for you, right now at least.

But The Greathammer is the baddest mother on the block. 3d6 x4 is just plain wicked. The Scythe is alright, but its no Greathammer. For ranged weapons its the Hafling Warsling, 1d6 x4...gotta love it.

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 05:32 PM
Orc Shotput takes the Halfling Warsling out any day in the ranged weapon catagory. Its a FREAKIN SHOTPUT!

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:37 PM
I thought composite greatbow was better. 1d10 and strength bonus which I believe is my highest stat.

of course you can't beat a shotput. as keld Denar said IT'S A FREAKING SHOTPUT!

and by abilities I meant, albeit in a confusing manner, no magical enahncements to the weapon such as acid greatbow or anything like that.

also. tell me more about this hydra melee weapon.:smallamused:

Mo_the_Hawked
2009-07-02, 05:42 PM
No, no, no. You can't beat cracking a skiprock out of warsling critting a bugbear then skipping into his buddy knocking them both dead. It is impossiable to beat that...although a shotput is kinda fun...but its no Warsling.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:43 PM
No, no, no. You can't beat cracking a skiprock out of warsling critting a bugbear then skipping into his buddy knocking them both dead. It is impossiable to beat that...although a shotput is kinda fun...but its no Warsling.

yeah but with the shotput instead of slicing through their brain you smash their heads. and that is so much more fun.

is it just me or should I not be a paladin?:smallbiggrin:

Mo_the_Hawked
2009-07-02, 05:45 PM
Maybe instead of Freedom, you should be a Paladin of Ass Kickery

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 05:46 PM
Maybe instead of Freedom, you should be a Paladin of Ass Kickery

what alignment would that be?:smallconfused:

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 06:08 PM
what alignment would that be?:smallconfused:

Lawfully Awesome?

You adhere strictly to the belief that you should promote awesomeness above all else!

And back to the Orc Shotput, put one of those in the hands of a Bloodstorm Blade and it'll beat the tar out of your crummy little half-man sling any day.

Plus, 3 little words enter the equation in a big way. GREATER MIGHTY WALLOP! When you start with a 2d6 base, 5 size increases stack up a lot faster than from 1d6...

Mystic Muse
2009-07-02, 06:27 PM
Lawfully Awesome?

You adhere strictly to the belief that you should promote awesomeness above all else!

And back to the Orc Shotput, put one of those in the hands of a Bloodstorm Blade and it'll beat the tar out of your crummy little half-man sling any day.

Plus, 3 little words enter the equation in a big way. GREATER MIGHTY WALLOP! When you start with a 2d6 base, 5 size increases stack up a lot faster than from 1d6...

aw man! I like neutral:smallfrown: of course that only applies to neutral good. I guess my character would be like the way Po described himself in kung fu panda "he was so amazing that his enemies were blinded by the exposure to sheer awesomeness!"

okay now two questions. how in the nine hells do I get five size increases and what in the twelve god's names is a bloodstorm blade?

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 06:41 PM
Greater Mighty Wallop is a spell from Races of the Dragon. It increases the damage of a bludgeoning weapon by 1 size catagory per 4 caster levels. It was supposed to help out small kobalds with small clubs be a viable threat, but CharOp killed the kobalds, stole their spell, and regularly abuse it for substantial size catagory stacking. A 2d6 Orc Shotput increases to 3d6 at CL5, 4d6 at CL8, 6d6 at CL12, 9d6 at CL16, and 18d6 at CL20, and its really rather easy to get to CL20 before actual level 20, sometimes as early as level 13 or so if you devote resources to it. Enlarge Person on the thrower for 27d6. Full attacking at range with an 27d6 weapon will make a lot of people fall down very quickly.

Bloodstorm Blade is a PrC in Tome of Battle that is all about throwing stuff at peoples heads in a way that bounces just right. Kinda absurd if you only think about it a little, and kinda awesome if you think about it a lot. Its the "big folk" version of the Halfling Skiprock Champion or Master Thrower or whatever. One of its abilities is to treat a thrown attack as a melee attack, which allows you to combine a lot of shananigans like Power Attack and Knockback. You can also make full attacks with a single thrown weapon and hit multiple foes per throw.

AgentPaper
2009-07-02, 10:49 PM
So, back the the original purpose of this thread, I've made myself a nifty little excel sheet that will calculate the average damage of a weapon for a given AC value. I even went the extra mile and added the critical threat mechanic. In case anyone is curious, here's the formula I used:

((Average Weapon Damage + Str Mod + Bonus Damage) * (21 + Str Mod - Critical Threat Range - AC) + (Average Weapon Damage + Str Mod + Bonus Damage + Bonus Critical Damage) * Critical Multiplier * Critical Threat Range * (1 - ((AC) / 20)) + (Average Weapon Damage + Str Mod) * ((AC) / 20)) / 20

Anyways, it seems to be accurate from my testing, and it's revealed some interesting things. For one, the Greatsword and the Greataxe are the only two weapons worth a second glance as far as martial two-handed weapons go. Greatswords are better than Greataxes when you're hitting more often than not, but once you need a 13 to hit, a Greataxe becomes better again. The only exception to this is, if you need a 20 to hit something, the Greatsword does slightly more damage on average than the Greataxe.

All in all, here's the rankings:

1) Greatsword
2) Greataxe
3) Glaive/Halberd
4) Greatclub
5) Heavy Flail
6) Scythe
7) Guisarme/Ranseur
8) Spiked Chain
9) Falchion
10) Lance

Mystic Muse
2009-07-03, 12:27 AM
sorry. a hydra definitely beats a greatsword :smalltongue:

Fitz
2009-07-03, 03:39 AM
which class has weapon proficency :hydra? ;)
Besides wouldn't dragon be better? (in case of dr /non-bite ;p )
Fitz

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-03, 12:32 PM
which class has weapon proficency :hydra? Master of Masks:Gladiator mask.

Blackfang108
2009-07-03, 03:03 PM
You can't power attack with an unarmed strike, since it is considered a light weapon, even for monks. :smallfrown:

It specifically states in the description for Power Attack,and I quote:


You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks),

Make sure you've actually read the feat before expousing the limitations of the feat.:smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2009-07-03, 03:28 PM
Master of Masks:Gladiator mask.

I lol'd... I'm definitely thinking about putting one of those in there the next character I build.... Especially now.:smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2009-07-03, 05:43 PM
man I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO need to have an enemy who wields a hydra in my campaign.