Make 'em PAY! (Contest)

[GreatWyrmGold]

In 3.5 D&D, there is no reason not to sling a spell, except that you can't sling it later. If you only do one or a few encounters a day, this is a huge problem.
It's been tried to change this. The ones I've seen aren't quite up to snuff. Zeta Kai's bio-mage puts a cost on spells if the campaign lasts long enough, but A.) in a short campaign, it's overpowered, and B.) it doesn't solve druidic/wizardly/etc problems. I've tried to make a couple of systems; one takes too much time, the other is a nuisance unless you're stupid.
Let's see what you come up with.

Disclaimer: As Jane Smith told me, there is not really a way to fix spellcasters without fixing the spells. They're such an integral part of the game that rewriting the spells would likely change D&D enough that it's not so much D&D.

Rules:
One entry per member, tops.
3.5 D&D. Call of Cthulu and 4th edition D&D don't have this problem.
You may edit your post until voting begins.
You may post entries from when this is posted (July 3rd) until midnight on July 17th (may be extended). Voting will be from nidnight on July 17th until July 22nd.
Breaking any of the above rules will disqualify you.
There may only be one vote per member. Any votes after that will be ignored. You may not vote for your own entry.
The entry must be easy to play at the gaming table, without referring to all sorts of tables (for instance). I fell into this trap.
The entry must cause spelllcasters to think twice before casting ANY spell, but must not turn a spellcaster into a terrified wreck about casting spells.
Notice the disclaimer.
Enjoy!

Scoring:
+5 per vote.
+1 if casting a spell causes caster's life to be threatened occasionally.
-2 if casting a spell causes caster's life to be threatened more than 5% of the time.
+2 for potential "flashy" mishaps/problems/etc.
-5 for almost garunteed failure.

[AugustNights]

The problem with this proposition, is that Low Hp, poor bab, and Focused Ability assignment already sets a spellcaster up for failure. Casting spells is all some of them have, and if they have to 'consider the consequences' of casting a spell any more than a Rogue has to 'consider the consequences' of hiding, or a Fighter of swinging a blade, there is a serious balance issue.

Consider, the Fighter-Type Character. The Fighter-Type Character relies on swinging a blade, but what if the Martial character had a 5% of invoking a lethal situation every time he swung. You might argue that Critical Failure is this 5%, however many spells require attack rolls, and there are several other balancing factors that spells actually have. And, most fighters can handle a critical hit or five from their own weapon.

Here is an interesting way to handle 'loose cannon' spell casters if you like, but it still needs some tweaking.

Chronochetos [Never was good at Greek.]
'Aye, I slew the Dragon... but at what Cost?' ~ Erent The Child Elder

Simple, Dangerous Version:
At the beginning of play, every character must roll a less thought of stat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#tableAgingEffects), Maximum Age.

If the character is immune to Death by age (and does not have the Undead or Dragon Type) their Effective Maximum age is 500 years. However they only die when they have incurred 500 years of Chronochetos drain, not when their age and drain add up to 500 years. This character dies just as if they had reached the end of their life span.

Every time a character casts a spell, they suffer from backlash, equal to one month per spell level. (Undead and Dragons are immune to the effects of Chronochetos.)

Less Dangerous Version:
Casters need to make a will save against the same DC as the spell they cast, if they fail they suffer Chronochetos Backlash. If they pass they do not.

More Complicated Version:
Designate an amount of Backlash per class.
Arcane Casters: 1 Month
Divine Casters: 2 Weeks (Assuming there are 4 weeks in a month)
Psionic Manifesters: 6 Weeks
Invoker: 1 week
Martial Adept: 1 week
Meldshaper: 1 week
Shadow-Magic: 2 Weeks
Truenamer: 1 Week
Pact-Binder: 1 month
Or whatever you feel is appropriate, depending on your setting and view of how magic works. The more natural, and less straining the magic is the less it should drain on a character. For example, I view psionic magic as very unnatural and quite draining on the individual casting, where as Divine Magic is more natural and less straining on the caster. This is a suggestion.

Problem: Some races are better off than others, such as Elves. An elf is much more likely to be a Wizard than a Human, but perhaps this isn't an entirely terrible issue. I would personally add a feat for Sorcerers, to make their drain less potent. Like...

Dragon Borne
You are blessed by your Ancestors
Prereq: Sorcerer L.1, Cha 15+
Benefit: You only suffer Chronochetos Backlash when casting spells at your highest level.

Alternatively If you are Using the Saving system you may gain a +4 Resistance bonus to Saves against Chronochetos Backlash, instead.

Other such Feats could be Established to Lessen the Burden on different types of Casters, or better Trained Casters.

[Knaight]

Why should martial adepts have to pay for using manuevers? They are swinging a weapon around, not using magic, with the exception of the sword sage, sometimes. And psionics is already more balanced than magic, why should they pay more? Plus the psionic Elan race benefits from this, they have infinite aging capability, and can get big mental bonuses, particularly as druids.

If one can use magic haphazardly without considering the consequences of bringing magic in, it doesn't feel very magical. So I present this as an alternative, with no connection to either the Bio Mage or The Riddle of Steel.

Charge Time
All spells take one round to cast, spread over two rounds, the move action of the first round and the standard action of the second round. The action of the first round is to charge a specific spell, the second is to release it. Higher level spells take longer to charge, and the caster takes a penalty to the initiative of the second round equal to the level of the spell being cast.

While a caster has a charged, but not a released spell they are very vulnerable. All magical defenses are rendered null during that time. In addition, if anybody attacks them they must make a concentration check equal to the damage done + the level of the spell being cast. If they fail the person who attacked them gets to choose what the spell targets. If the spell is not disrupted, a concentration check with a difficulty equal to 10+twice the level of the spell must be made. If it fails, the GM decides what the spell targets, and is encouraged to cause the worst case scenario.

[Lysander]

I like the idea of magic being risky, and potentially damaging the very fabric of reality. Magical Stability gives every caster a certain amount of magic they can handle before they tear a rift in spacetime and get sent to another plane:

Magical Stability
As a magic user casts spells they weaken reality around them. A spellcaster has a maximum Magical Stability equal to their caster level. Whenever they cast a spell, subtract that spell's level from their Magical Stability. A caster's Magical Stability naturally replenishes at a rate of one level per minute. A caster can also discard an available spell slot as a standard action to add that spell slot's level to their Magical Stability, by using that spell's energy to repair some of the damage.

Magical Stability can enter negative numbers. For each negative number, the caster has an cumulative 5% chance of opening up a rift and being shifted to a random plane. For example, a caster who had reduced their Magical Stability to -3 would have a 15% chance of getting pulled to another plane the next time they attempt to cast a spell. This chance does not rise above 95%.

Level 0 cantrips do not reduce Magical Stability, nor does casting them risk opening a rift regardless of how low one's Magical Stability is. Every 5 levels a magician can cast one higher spell level without risking a rift (for example a level 20 caster would not risk a rift with any spell Level 4 and under). Those spells still drain Magical Stability however.

[GreatWyrmGold]

ChumpLump:
A.)...Welcome to reality. Before I started chatting about it on this forum, I never understood why spellcasters were supposedly "more powerful" than other classes (or why monks were supposedly underpowered). Now, I (sorta) do. If you add something, spellcasters won't be underbalenced. If it's good, it'll help spellcasters be balenced (do I really want to cast X? I have a chance of Y!).
B.) Sure. Tweak it. You can edit it until voting starts.

[playswithfire]

Consequences of Channeling

The human (or elf or dwarf or whatever) body was not designed to channel the raw energies of the universe that are so unthinkingly called upon by the various spellcasters to do their bidding. If said caster is not careful, the energy may do great harm to them on its way from their body to their intended targets.

Based on the effect of the spell, the spellcaster runs certain risks. Every time a character casts a spell, he or she must make a will save DC equal to 10+caster level. There are four possible outcomes of this save: the character makes the save, fails the save by less than five, fails by five or more, or rolls a natural 1. On a successful save, nothing happens. The consequences of the three failures vary based on spell effect.


Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, or Sonic
These energies are hard to control and sometimes take their toll on the body that conjures them.
Fail the save: take 1 point of damage per spell level of the same type as the spell.
Fail by 5 or more: take 1d2 points of damage per spell level instead; same type.
Natural 1: in addition to Xd2 damage, you can not cast spells with the same effect for a number of rounds equal to the spell level

Air, Earth, Water
Fluff later
Fail the save: take 1 point of damage per spell level; bypasses DR.
Fail by 5 or more: take 1d2 points of damage per spell level instead.
Natural 1: in addition to Xd2 damage, you can not cast spells with the same effect for a number of rounds equal to the spell level

Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful
Calling upon your fundamental nature can leave you open to attack by those who oppose you.
Fail the save: -2 AC penalty against attacks made by characters with alignment opposite that of spell.
Fail by 5 or more: flat-footed against attacks made by characters with alignment opposite that of spell instead.
Natural 1: In addition to being flatfooted against attacks made by characters with alignment opposite that of spell, you take an AC penalty equal to the level of the spell against the same attacks.

Darkness or Light
The eyes of those who tamper with the balance of light and dark are sometimes unaccustomed to the new reality.
Fail the save:Dazzled for 1 round.
Fail by 5 or more: 20% miss chance for 1 round, dazzled for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.
Natural 1: Blinded for 1 round, 20% miss chance for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.

Death, Fear, Mind-Affecting, Sleep
Still working on these, but you get the idea where this is going

indicates something I'll probably tweak

Needs a fair amount of work, but I think it makes conceptual sense.

[fetfet]

Consensual Casting

The way magic works is not supported by the current version of the universe. Arcanists must draw upon the strangest of powers to utilise a simple effect, and divine casters must draw faith before their spell become effective.

Each level, the arcanist chooses 1 school. He may gain one level in that school, and gain one more spell of that level, or he may gain 3 new spells and not advance a level. The first level of a school grants you three spells. You learn all cantrips from that school. For example, a 4th-level wizard may have Evocation 3, and sacrifice his 4th level for 3 new evocation spells. He would then have 8 Evocation spells, of any level from 1st to 3rd level.

If an arcanist casts a spell, he must roll a caster level check, with a DC equal to 10 + the school level. Success means the spell goes as planned, failure means that no spell is cast, and the spellcaster may try again at a +1 DC. Critical Success Empowers the spell(as the feat), and critical failure causes a Fault. Faults cause the spell to function, but the DM rolls a d6. A result of 1-2 causes the spell to select a target at random, a result of 3-4 causes the caster to go insane, as per the spell, and a result of 4-5 summons an Abyssal Entity with a CR equal to twice the spell level. For example, if the 4th-level wizard above were to cast scorching ray, he'd have to make a DC 13 caster level check, 13 being 10 + the school level. If he rolls a 9 or higher, he succeeds, and if he rolls a 20, the spell does 1.5 times the damage. If he rolls lower than 9, the spell fails, and he may try again at DC 14.

Divine casters learn and cast spells as per the PHB, but there is one difference. A divine spellcaster must take a full action their first turn of combat praying, or take a -1 penalty to caster level and damage/healing dice until they pray. Ressurection also causes the caster to lose 1 level, as does reincarnation. If there is a member of the cleric's adventuring party who does not believe in a god, the cleric take a -1 penalty to caster level. They recieve a +1 caster level if they are in a temple, +2 if it is a temple to their god.

[TSED]

Premise 1:
The spellcaster takes lethal damage equal to the spell level when he casts it. Metamagic increases the damage by the modifier. This ignores any and all temporary hp of any form, and cannot be mitigated in any way except direct healing (so damage reduction, energy resistance, spell resistance, etc. do nothing to this unmitigatible damage). Unconsciousness caused by casting a spell does not result in bleeding to death (OPTIONAL: unless they already had at least 1/4 -3/4 [DM's choice] of their hit points taken away from direct wounds). Fast healing and regeneration does not recoup this damage.

*This means that a wizard spamming high level spells WILL kill himself quickly. d4 HD can NOT sustain plowing through 9, 9, 8, 4, 7, etc. damage on his own actions. Likewise, it doesn't auto-doom the casters because he can still have his actions. Furthermore, a low hp mage has to decide if knocking himself out is worth the spell effect, or if he should maybe wait and see.

**This does not work quite as well on clerics and druids, unfortunately. However, it is still a hefty consideration that WILL slow them down. Optionally, you could decide that, since their HD are bigger and they have self-healing, the spells do twice their level in damage. This makes a 9th level Divine Spell spectacular, as they arguably should be. Deities don't go around granting Miracles and Storms of Vengeance because the high priest lost his keys.


Premise 2:
On a caster level check (dispel magic, spell resistance, etc.), a natural 1 OR failing to meet the DC by 5 requires a roll on a Wild Magic Table. This is MUCH more satisfying than "nothing happens."

Premise 3:
There is a wild surge table with 10,000 results on it somewhere on the internet. I have it saved in pdf format but I can't recall where it's from, sorry. Still, some google-fu should find it... (Answer: it did! http://gnba.netdemons.com/books/olik/Spells_Magic.html - Net Libram of Random Magical Effects)




EDIT:: In conclusion, spellcasters now have to worry about casting spells but are generally safe. Low level spellcasters can take that 1 pt of damage in exchange for a telling Sleep, but still cast their cantrips without worry. Higher level spellcasters can't use their cantrips to influence battles, but their higher HP pools should allow lower level spell effects to be cast with relative impunity. High level effects are ALWAYS a consideration - not only can you not cast it later, but that's a decent chunk of damage for your level.

The caster checks adds a bit of liveliness to the spellcasting thing. If you have a critical fumble chart (I do!), melee combat can turn hilarious as the ogre tries to hit the rogue and clobbers his pals by mistake, who then clobber him, and the PCs just kind of stand there and go "Huh."

It's easy bookkeeping (it's a 7th level spell so I take 7 damage. Check.), discourages going nova (helping to prevent the 8-hour adventuring day), cannot be cheesed against (well you COULD use gestalt to make the hp not bother you or multiclass for bigger HD, but multiclassing hurts your spellcasting and gestalted casters are already auto-broken), adds fun if you use premise 2 (Wait, my dispel magic turned his hair into flowers?), doesn't actually inhibit spellcasting mechanically, and will infuriate every munchkin I've ever played with.

EDIT EDIT:: Wild surge. Wild surge.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Premise 3:
There is a table with 10,000 results on it somewhere on the internet. I have it saved in pdf format but I can't recall where it's from, sorry. Still, some google-fu should find it...
Post a link, or this won't count.
"a table with 10,000 results" (no quotes) gets me a bunch of what seem to be ads for tables from companies with 10,000 in the name. With quotes, I get this familiar page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6427075).

[TSED]

http://gnba.netdemons.com/books/olik/Spells_Magic.html


Bam! "Wild surge table 10000", first page though not first result.

Uh. I'll go edit in "Wild surge table" though.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'm going to suggest making -all- spells work the way epic spells do, with the following considerations:

1) The DC for a Spellcraft check is equal to 13 + twice the levels of metamagic feats applied + the minimum level a caster must have to cast the spell. Do not allow the alternate ruling in the Epic Level Handbook that suggests letting casters using stats other than Intelligence to use their main casting stat on Spellcraft checks.

2) The check for casting a spell is an automatic failure if you roll a natural 1. On such a roll, the caster suffers a magical backlash; he suffers the effect of the spell as if he had succeed a saving throw for a lesser effect, if possible, otherwise he suffers the full effect of the spell. Spell resistance or immunity does not apply to magical backlash.

3) As a corollary, if the spell does not have an effect that would be detrimental, the backlash from a failed Spellcraft check is equal to 1d6 per level of the spell, plus the modifier for the caster's primary casting stat.

4) Under no circumstances is a player allowed access to wish or miracle.

[jakonen115]

Full Casting.
During the rest period when spells are chosen; all the spells are performed, but not completed untill the spell is "cast". the spells need only their triggers performed to finish the spell.
So logically, if the spellcaster were to perform the "whole spell" instead of the trigger for that spell. the spell slot wouldn't be expended. however Full Casting takes much longer to perform that usual. Leaving them open to any and all attacks. If the whole spell trigger system didnt exist, then mages would have to carefully consider where and when they started casting their spells.

In short if the increase the cast time of the spell used, but no one has to have it expended or prepared that morning.
as a base for my idea.
increase cast time to a number of rounds equal to the spell level divided by 2 rounded up, with cantraps (lvl 0's) and level one useing an extra round cast.
metamagic feats cause normal cast time increases.

For example:
Fireball is a level 3 spell.
Full casting fireball would take 2 rounds and a standard action to cast.(3 /2 is 1.5, rounded up is 2).

[SilveryCord]

Well i have a theroy, a small one, but a theroy. Its called Full Casting.
When reading the Players handbook i saw that during the rest period when spells are chosen; all the spells are performed, but not completed untill the spell is "cast". the spells need only their triggers performed to finish the spell.
So logically, if the spellcaster were to perform the "whole spell" in stead of the trigger for that spell. the spell slot wouldn't be expended.

In short if the caster were to chose to willingly increase the cast time of his/her spell the spell can be used without it being expended or prepared that morning.
as a base for my idea. how about
increase cast time to a number of rounds equal to the spell level divided by 2 rounded up, with cantraps (lvl 0's) and level one useing an extra round cast.
and as a simplification rule, no metamagic feats can be applied to full casting (it would be to complicated to recite the entire spell with modifcations mid battle.)

For example:
Fireball is a level 3 spell.
Full casting fireball would take 2 rounds and a standard action to cast.(3 /2 is 1.5, rounded up is 2)

tell me what you think!
uh, I don't think you're supposed to make wizards and sorcerors MORE POWERFUL. I think the idea is LESS POWERFUL.

[jakonen115]

uh, I don't think you're supposed to make wizards and sorcerors MORE POWERFUL. I think the idea is LESS POWERFUL.

accedently left out a part sorry edited now.

[AstralFire]

Disallow spells with an XP cost, except for Wish. Double the cost of Wish.
Make everything subject to spell resistance and spell immunity.

Disallow every single magic item in the game that solely or primarily benefits a caster. When that caster has spell DCs of 29 if he really pumps it, AND all of his spells are subject to SR, his save or sucks aren't so sexy. That reminds me - remove all spells that allow you to overcome spell resistance. (There are only 3, anyway.)

Require UMD to use any spell-trigger items. Remove Scribe Scroll. Disallow Wizard Specialization.

Do not give Clerics domain powers. Require them to pick only one domain.

Force Druids to use one of the Wild Shape Variants in PHB II or UA. Ban Natural Spell.

Remove Shapechange. Remove Summoning spells (Astral Construct is okay, though; if you want to rebuild the summon spells like that, be my guest).

Remove Share Spell aspect of animal companions. Remove Divine Power, swap for Tenser's Transformation. Remove Contingency. Ban Persistent Spell.

Remove Miracle. Replace with Wish. Remove Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line.

Increase Forcecage's casting time to 10 minutes. Increase duration to 1 day/level.

Doesn't fit your contest's requirement of making spells hurt. Is a hell of a lot faster to put into play than most such systems.

Alternatively, can keep all spells with an XP cost (such as Gate), and multiply the XP cost by 3. Or hell, force a level loss for every such usage - and set their new experience total to a fresh level, rather than mid. People won't mind using a little bit of XP constantly, but if they lose a level every time they cast Wish or Gate, they're going to use it a lot less - imagine being almost 20 and dropping to a fresh 18. Make this level loss irreparable by any means.

[fetfet]

What's the word on Consensual Casting?

[waterpenguin43]

My system is this: When you want to learn, you can use 1 point per level of the spell cast, your point total is the ability modifier you use to cast with times your level. The loss of points is permanent, you regain your ability modifier worth of points next level. You can now use that spell at will, however, there is a 25% chance minus your caster level that a mishap occurs with your spell, such as chain lightning making a chain that entangles you dealing 3d6 electricity damage or some other mishap at the DM's discretion. You can also have normally prepare spells.

[TSED]

What's the word on Consensual Casting?

I'd say it utterly demolishes arcanists (oh look, I can only do... nothing, really. Heh.



Each level, the arcanist chooses 1 school. He may gain one level in that school, and gain one more spell of that level, or he may gain 3 new spells and not advance a level. The first level of a school grants you three spells. You learn all cantrips from that school. For example, a 4th-level wizard may have Evocation 3, and sacrifice his 4th level for 3 new evocation spells. He would then have 8 Evocation spells, of any level from 1st to 3rd level.

So how do you get an arcanist who is actually capable of, well, ANYTHING? For a lot of schools, there aren't even 3 spells for every level. What happens in that case? Furthermore, these wizard slots are limited.

Secondly, if you gain 3 new spells in a new level, why would you trade that for 3 spells in an old level? A couple of spell levels have a lot of nice things, but you ALWAYS get nicer things from a higher level.

Lastly, this basically only leaves 4 schools for PCs: evokers, conjurers, transmuters, and necromancers. Abjurers get no neato-effects (I cast mage armour and dispel magic. The monsters can totally ignore me because I can do nothing to hurt them). Diviners are always around in NPC format, but would you want to play a guy who scries or identifies items and nothing else? Especially given the rules for them...

And splitting your level-ups between two schools is just a recipe for disaster.


If an arcanist casts a spell, he must roll a caster level check, with a DC equal to 10 + the school level. Success means the spell goes as planned, failure means that no spell is cast, and the spellcaster may try again at a +1 DC.

So it gets progressively harder to cast the same spell? Did you mean next round, without costing another spell slot? If so, that makes sense, otherwise... Ouch.


Critical Success Empowers the spell(as the feat), and critical failure causes a Fault. Faults cause the spell to function, but the DM rolls a d6. A result of 1-2 causes the spell to select a target at random, a result of 3-4 causes the caster to go insane, as per the spell, and a result of 4-5 summons an Abyssal Entity with a CR equal to twice the spell level.

Ouch, dude. Basically everyone in the world who touches magic is going to be insane, and since they're insane there's no one higher level to remove insanity, so you end up with a gibbering population of would-be spellcasters and no actual magic.

Wait, nevermind, clerics are different and don't get faults. Still, that sorcerer in the middle of the tiny village gets lynched for daemonics. That wizard from a small town comes back from the big city university, screws up a cantrip, and gets lynched by a mob. Spellcasting is outlawed in every city because of demons and insane axe-murdering ex-archmages. Might want to rethink the Fault effects a touch.

Also, what about spells that can't be empowered?


Divine casters learn and cast spells as per the PHB, but there is one difference. A divine spellcaster must take a full action their first turn of combat praying, or take a -1 penalty to caster level and damage/healing dice until they pray.

Wouldn't it be easier to have a full round praying to prepare to cast a spell, then cast the spell as the normal action? This breaks Action Economy a bit so that they aren't nastily broken.

Still, arcanists took a much bigger hit and in most forms of gameplay it's the druids / clerics that are really broken. Especially since a lot of buffs will work just fine with a -1 penalty to caster level, you now have servants of God who are still THE most powerful class, what with full spellcasting (only classes who get it now!), 3/4 BAB, and heavy armour proficiency.

Arcanists get a massive nerf - specialist wizards with all 5 other schools banned and only a couple of spells, or generalists who never get into the good stuff - while clerics can play exactly the way they did before at only a -1 to CL. Vigor for heals, buffs for combat, yo.


Ressurection also causes the caster to lose 1 level, as does reincarnation. If there is a member of the cleric's adventuring party who does not believe in a god, the cleric take a -1 penalty to caster level. They recieve a +1 caster level if they are in a temple, +2 if it is a temple to their god.

What if it's a temple for an opposed God?
Also, this seems like a pointless restriction. Some DMs don't like games with a revolving door afterlife, in which this is fine, but they probably have their own houserules for it. Others don't mind it, and wouldn't use this ever. Ever.

[Lapak]

Casting Limits and Overcasting

Point One: Any spellcaster may cast spell levels equal to his own character level in any one encounter without danger. (A Wiz6 could cast a third-level spell, a second-level spell, and a first-level spell without endangering himself, for example.)

Point Two: Going over this limit subjects the caster to Overcasting damage. Every spell level over the limit is taken as unpreventable Constitution damage that cannot be magically healed; it can only be recovered naturally over time.

Point Three: Going over this limit is also difficult; the caster must succeed at a Concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the total spell levels he has cast in this encounter. Failing the check causes the spell to fail. Failing the check by more than 10 causes the spell to backlash violently, doing force damage equal to the spell level to the caster and all creatures within five feet. In either case, the spell fails.

Failing the check by more than 20 causes the caster to explode as with a Staff of Power's retributive strike. Treat all unused spell levels that the caster has remaining as charges.

[Notes: I've kind of off-the-cuff guessed on the DC for the concentration check; they'll become more difficult since the caster is also losing CON but I'm not sure how tough to make them.

My theory on this is that it allows the caster to safely cast during combat up to a point; he can drop two of his highest-level spells, or poke away with lower-level spells, or go all out and just suck up the CON damage and hope it works out. Input on adjusting the limit before Overcasting kicks in is welcome.]

[mikeejimbo]

Here's my idea. It's simple, playable, and unlikely to get many votes.

Increase the number of encounters per day. Allow characters to heal up between encounters, and possibly even increase access to healing magic. Also, never tell them quite when the encounters for the day will be over, or how many there will be.

This way, the caster has to think twice about using a spell, because he might need it for something even worse, later.

This doesn't, of course, solve Divine Metacheese or other high abuse things like PaO. The solution for this is to hit the player with the PHB.

[fetfet]

I'd say it utterly demolishes arcanists (oh look, I can only do... nothing, really. Heh.
<snip>

Never really thought of it that way. Gah.

[sigurd]

Either way you hit the same problem.

Players don't partake in a real economy and don't want to struggle with rare ingredients, finite known magic sources, or persistent world economies of power, wealth, or arcane mana.

Spells just happen - that's the most palatable solution for players.

What party would enjoy role playing the tedious study and marshaling of power. We don't really worry about the footwork for fighters - I mean are they really in a position with the leverage and reach for a killing blow? - and we don't worry about the detailed nitty gritty of magic and the acquisition of magic power.

Anything that approaches realism will be discarded by people who are playing a game to have fun. Like spell components. Here is the primary balance to make spells expensive - the problem is that if demands much more attention from DM and Player than they are willing to expend. If there are 150 spell components whats the chance that they will be available in any circumstance? When the story line demands that an object be 'Identified' what is the chance that the DM has already determined all the local sources for pearls? The game table will always end up glossing over details that are simply no fun.

When the party divides treasure are they going to pay for the magic components as a party or make the Wizard pay it out of his share? How does the wizard afford the extra scrolls etc... to advance his knowledge and become a more powerful party member?

Fixing magic is all about fixing setting and having a detailed enough setting that spells are a reflection of ambient power\treasure\mana or whatever. Most player have only a loose association of a region. The game creates self sufficient explorers not careful wizards intimately tied to the power sources in their region.


my .02


Sigurd

[GreatWyrmGold]

Alright, voting has begun. Yay.

[Gnomo]

Why don't you simply slow down spell recovery?

A very simple solution would be to make the spellcaster recover a number of spell slots equal to the ones granted by his class levels when resting, but not those granted by a high ability score.

For example, a 9th level Wizard with an Intelligence score of 20 (+5) has this number of spell slots available to cast:

{table=head]Spell Level|Base Slots|Extra Slots|Total Slots

0 |
4 |
2* |
6*

1st |
4 |
2 |
6

2nd |
4 |
1 |
5

3rd |
3 |
1 |
4

4th |
2 |
1 |
3

5th |
1 |
1 |
2[/table]
*Granting extra 0 level spell slots due to a high relevant ability score.

So, when a 9th level wizard rests he only recovers 4 0 level spells, 4 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 3 third level spells, 2 4th level spells and only 1 5th level spells. As you can see this makes higher level spells to be recovered slower than low level spells (at least at lower caster levels) so it makes those spell slots more valuable.

Then the casters will always have some more spell slots that will not be refreshed unless the spellcaster save some spells during the day. And, this will also rest some importance on the main casting ability score for that character. This will affect characters who go nova all the time little by little and it's a very simple solution.

Of course you apply the same for psionic manifesters, they only recover the base power points listed by it's class level, not those extra power points granted by a high relevant ability score.

About ways to get extra spell slots or power points, those do not affect the recovery, so you will have to rest a lot to get those back.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why don't you simply slow down spell recovery?

A very simple solution would be to make the spellcaster recover a number of spell slots equal to the ones granted by his class levels when resting, but not those granted by a high ability score.

For example, a 9th level Wizard with an Intelligence score of 20 (+5) has this number of spell slots available to cast:

{table=head]Spell Level|Base Slots|Extra Slots|Total Slots

0 |
4 |
2* |
6*

1st |
4 |
2 |
6

2nd |
4 |
1 |
5

3rd |
3 |
1 |
4

4th |
2 |
1 |
3

5th |
1 |
1 |
2[/table]
*Granting extra 0 level spell slots due to a high relevant ability score.

So, when a 9th level wizard rests he only recovers 4 0 level spells, 4 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 3 third level spells, 2 4th level spells and only 1 5th level spells. As you can see this makes higher level spells to be recovered slower than low level spells (at least at lower caster levels) so it makes those spell slots more valuable.

Then the casters will always have some more spell slots that will not be refreshed unless the spellcaster save some spells during the day. And, this will also rest some importance on the main casting ability score for that character. This will affect characters who go nova all the time little by little and it's a very simple solution.

Of course you apply the same for psionic manifesters, they only recover the base power points listed by it's class level, not those extra power points granted by a high relevant ability score.

About ways to get extra spell slots or power points, those do not affect the recovery, so you will have to rest a lot to get those back.

Oops. Sorry, too late. Very, very sorry.

[TSED]

Disallow spells with an XP cost, except for Wish. Double the cost of Wish.
Make everything subject to spell resistance and spell immunity.

Disallow every single magic item in the game that solely or primarily benefits a caster. When that caster has spell DCs of 29 if he really pumps it, AND all of his spells are subject to SR, his save or sucks aren't so sexy. That reminds me - remove all spells that allow you to overcome spell resistance. (There are only 3, anyway.)

Require UMD to use any spell-trigger items. Remove Scribe Scroll. Disallow Wizard Specialization.

Do not give Clerics domain powers. Require them to pick only one domain.

Force Druids to use one of the Wild Shape Variants in PHB II or UA. Ban Natural Spell.

Remove Shapechange. Remove Summoning spells (Astral Construct is okay, though; if you want to rebuild the summon spells like that, be my guest).

Remove Share Spell aspect of animal companions. Remove Divine Power, swap for Tenser's Transformation. Remove Contingency. Ban Persistent Spell.

Remove Miracle. Replace with Wish. Remove Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line.

Increase Forcecage's casting time to 10 minutes. Increase duration to 1 day/level.

Doesn't fit your contest's requirement of making spells hurt. Is a hell of a lot faster to put into play than most such systems.

Alternatively, can keep all spells with an XP cost (such as Gate), and multiply the XP cost by 3. Or hell, force a level loss for every such usage - and set their new experience total to a fresh level, rather than mid. People won't mind using a little bit of XP constantly, but if they lose a level every time they cast Wish or Gate, they're going to use it a lot less - imagine being almost 20 and dropping to a fresh 18. Make this level loss irreparable by any means.

Astral Fire gets my vote.

Most of these are already in my mish-mash of a homebrewed 3.5, actually. Doesn't the "Everything has Spell Resistance" slow down gameplay though?

[mikeejimbo]

Disallow spells with an XP cost, except for Wish. Double the cost of Wish.
Make everything subject to spell resistance and spell immunity.

Disallow every single magic item in the game that solely or primarily benefits a caster. When that caster has spell DCs of 29 if he really pumps it, AND all of his spells are subject to SR, his save or sucks aren't so sexy. That reminds me - remove all spells that allow you to overcome spell resistance. (There are only 3, anyway.)

Require UMD to use any spell-trigger items. Remove Scribe Scroll. Disallow Wizard Specialization.

Do not give Clerics domain powers. Require them to pick only one domain.

Force Druids to use one of the Wild Shape Variants in PHB II or UA. Ban Natural Spell.

Remove Shapechange. Remove Summoning spells (Astral Construct is okay, though; if you want to rebuild the summon spells like that, be my guest).

Remove Share Spell aspect of animal companions. Remove Divine Power, swap for Tenser's Transformation. Remove Contingency. Ban Persistent Spell.

Remove Miracle. Replace with Wish. Remove Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line.

Increase Forcecage's casting time to 10 minutes. Increase duration to 1 day/level.

Doesn't fit your contest's requirement of making spells hurt. Is a hell of a lot faster to put into play than most such systems.

Alternatively, can keep all spells with an XP cost (such as Gate), and multiply the XP cost by 3. Or hell, force a level loss for every such usage - and set their new experience total to a fresh level, rather than mid. People won't mind using a little bit of XP constantly, but if they lose a level every time they cast Wish or Gate, they're going to use it a lot less - imagine being almost 20 and dropping to a fresh 18. Make this level loss irreparable by any means.

I have to agree. Astral Fire gets my vote too!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Voting ended two days ago. :smallredface:

Scores:

ChumpLump:
+1 for life-threatening
Total: 1

Knaight:
+2 for potentially flashy results
Total: 2

Lysander:
+1 for life-threatening
+2 for potentially flashy results
Total: 3

playswithfire:
+1 for life-threatening
+2 for potentially flashy results
Total: 3

thelizard:
Total: 0

TSED:
+1 for life-threatening
+2 for potentially flashy results
Ad hoc -1/2 for pre-3.5 D&D, which has some minor problems (THACO, anyone?)
Total: 2-1/2

vasharanpaladin:
+1 for life-threatening
+2 for potentially flashy results
Total: 3

jakonen115: Huh? This makes spellcasters LESS powerful?
Yes, I looked at the edited version. Ad hoc -3.
Total: -3

AstralFire:
Yep, okay. Ad hoc -1 for non-makes-a-spellcaster-paying-ness.
+10 for 2 votes
Total: 9

waterpenguin43:
+2 for flashiness
Ad hoc -3 for non-less-powerful-ness.
Total: -1

Lapak:
+1 for life-threatening
+2 for potentially flashy results
Total: 3

mikeejimbo: ? I guess I'll allow it, just to be kind.
Total: 0

Gnomo: Cool idea, but too late. :smallfrown:

--------------------

AstralFire wins! There are enough 2nd-place ties that I won't name them all.

[AgentPaper]

The contest seems to be over, but here's a system anyways.

Backlash:

Whenever you cast a spell, roll a d20. If the d20 lands as a natural 1, the spell fails and the caster takes 1 point of constitution damage. This damage lasts 24 hours, or until the caster sleeps for at least 8 hours. If the spell is being cast from the highest-level spell slot available to the caster, then the damage lasts for a week or an entire day's rest instead.

[TSED]

Eh? I just said "find the biggest wild surge table you can, for example this one has 10,000 results." I didn't say "use this table."

[GreatWyrmGold]

Eh? I just said "find the biggest wild surge table you can, for example this one has 10,000 results." I didn't say "use this table."

Wha? Oops. That gets you up to 3 points.

Edit: Cool! Second page!

[Haarkla]

*Druids lose spontaneous casting.

*Casting a spell is a full round action.

*9th level spells are abolished.

*You add the spells level to concentration dcs.

*Arcane spellcasters must roll d20 every time they cast a spell. On a 1 they must roll on The Net Libram of 10,000 Random Magical Effects.

*Wizard specialisation is disallowed.

*1st-3rd level wizards gain an extra 1st level spell/day.

*Druids armour restrictions replace those of Wizards/Sorcerers. Wizards/Sorcerers gain light armour proficiency.




I like Astralfires and Gnomos ideas as well.