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Gaiyamato
2009-07-03, 11:45 PM
I just noticed something.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion

This is a slightly powerful Skeleton Warrior is all. It does not state that the Skeleton cannot be turned or more importantly Rebuked.
With starting gold and the Mercantile feat a Wizard could make a few of these at first level if he wished. A fellow Cleric from the same party could rebuke them one at a time. In effect this allows a Level 1 party to make undead of sorts.
It would take a lot of downtime and costs more than Animate dead does.
But it is a way to get a bunch of skeletons at level 1.
Using Negative Energy ray the wizard could easily heal them if needed as well.

Is this right?

woodenbandman
2009-07-03, 11:53 PM
It says if destroyed it can be replaced. Rebuked =/= destroyed.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 12:09 AM
No but you no longer control it.
It is for all intents destroyed.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-04, 12:12 AM
Depends on the DM. Some would agree, others would not.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 12:17 AM
What could I do if it WAS Rebuked?
If I cannot replace it I would have to use my own magic to take control once again.

If it was rebuked and then released would it return back to my control??

Hat-Trick
2009-07-04, 12:19 AM
Probably return control, yeah. That's how I see it, anyway.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 12:38 AM
Hmm this is all really vague. Google turns up nothing on the subject unfortunately. :(

Animefunkmaster
2009-07-04, 12:48 AM
Well RAW from your link turns up:


If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant.

Rebuke =/= destroyed... unless you can find raw to say the contrary, I could not. There is nothing in the raw that says you can make another one when the original is not destroyed. Having no control =/= destroyed, it simply means having no control.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 12:56 AM
However if that is the case then it sort of screw necromancers.

Because according to Libris Mortis they only regain the slot used to control the undead (if it was animated from animate dead etc.) if it is destroyed. Though they also have the option to release the undead when animating new undead as well, which solves that.

But that could mean that you could rebuke all of the undead a Necromancer (of any sort) has and they are not able to control new undead until they get fresh corpses and go through the process of re-making the undead.

Losing an Undead to Rebuke should count as it being destroyed or released for the purpose of the control limits. Which makes this trick work in that context.

I do recall reading a WotC on the issue somwhere once upon a time.

But this area seems really really vague to me.



If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant.

But that is only in referance to the normal effects of having a familiar destroyed.
All it is saying there is that even though it replaces your familiar, you do not suffer ill effects from it being destroyed and have the option of replacing it, just as you can with a familiar, though without the time restriction.

It says nothing about losing control of the undead, or indeed even IF it can be rebuked or controlled through any manner.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 01:04 AM
Actually according to the players handbook Commanding Undead for Rebuking counts as Destroying Undead for Turning except for the rule differences noted.
(Players Handbook page 159).

Which means that for the original controller they count as being destroyed. There is no distinction between Rebuke and Turned for Destroyed/Commanded undead from the original animators position.

Which means that under RAW, through any interpretation, this works.

This also makes the rules and wording in Libris Mortis make much more sense.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 01:08 AM
It says that only if it is destroyed, i.e. no longer exists as a creature, you have the option of making a new one. It doesn't give any provisions if you lose control over it, and it does not say that it can be dismissed and then replaced. Therefore, if it gets stolen from you, you lose the benefit of that class feature until you can either destroy it yourself or have it destroyed, cause whoever currently controls it to lose or dismiss that control, or steal it back.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 01:10 AM
It says that only if it is destroyed, i.e. no longer exists as a creature, you have the option of making a new one. It doesn't give any provisions if you lose control over it, and it does not say that it can be dismissed and then replaced. Therefore, if it gets stolen from you, you lose the benefit of that class feature until you can either destroy it yourself or have it destroyed, cause whoever currently controls it to lose or dismiss that control, or steal it back.

In my last post I showed that Rebuked counts as Destroyed from the perspective of the original controller in the PHB under RAW.



The effect of this is that Turning Undead and Rebuking Undead are the same effect from the point of view of the current controller of the creature...



Regardless of the effect the general term and process for the activity is "turning". When attempting to exercise their divine control over these creatures, characters make turning checks.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 01:23 AM
Also I found this in Libris Mortis:



... Turning Undead and Rebuking Undead is the same effect using different energy (Positive for Turn Undead and Negative for Rebuke Undead) to achieve different ends. However from the point of view of the Necromancer these effects are not distinguishable ...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 01:26 AM
Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command
(control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or
destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning
check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those
that would be destroyed are commanded.
They are not destroyed, they are commanded instead.

I searched my PDF of the PHB for the quotes from your last post, the first one isn't even there, the second one doesn't have anything to do with this discussion even when taken out of context. You're either grossly misquoting it or making up quotes, neither of which helps your case.

Edit: give me a page number, because the phrase "point of view" appears nowhere in either the PHB or Libris Mortis.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-04, 01:28 AM
Both are in my printed copy of the PHB. :P

Your section there refers to the effect on the undead itself.
I am only talking about the effect of rebuking an undead on the original controller of the undead.

EDIT: Page 135 of my printed Libris Mortis.
But you are right. It does not appear in my pdf copy.

This is the third time I have found discrepencies between different copies of pdf copies and different copies of printed books or between printed and pdf copies.

EDIT #2: In my pdf copy it says "This copy uses updated material from the 3.5 revision" which does not appear in my printed copy of the book.
Which means the pdf is probably correct.
:P

*bows to defeat*

EDIT #3: Teaches me to not buy "original version" books from eBay. lol.