View Full Version : Relentless Fighter Prc updated!

2009-07-04, 06:33 AM
This is my first prc, its supposed to give the fighter the same benifits the archmage class gives the wizard, so it will seem a little over powered.

Must have had a successful called shot result in a kill.
+ 10 base attack bonus
13 ranks in intimidate

skill points:2+int per level

hit die:d10

base attack bonus and saves, same as fighter

Relentless Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|[1]|[2]|[0]|[0]|special ability , bonus feat

2nd|[2]|[3]|[0]|[0]|special abitlity, bonus feat

3rd|[3]|[3]|[1]|[1]|special ability

4th|[4]|[4]|[1]|[1]|special ablity bonus feat

5th|[5]|[4]|[1]|[1]|special ability

6th|[6/1]|[5]|[2]|[2]|Special Ability, bonus feat[/table]

special abilities
Ruthless assault:(you no longer take negatives with a called shot when aiming for an arm or a leg)

Ruthless bash:(you can use a shield as part of a shield bash, and you only lose half the benefits to your armor class)

Ruthless charge:(you can make a full round attack at the end of a charge. All charge bonuses are negated, you take a negative 6 on the attack regardless of other feats or abilities)

Ruthless strength:(apply 2 1/2 times str mod to 2 handed weapons, when wielded in two hands)

Ruthless affinity:(For every opponent within your melee range, you get +1 dodge bonus to your ac. )

Relenting blow: (When striking a spell caster who is casting a spell, they must make a concentration check of 10damage done. or lose the spell their casting and be stunned for 3 rounds)

Ruthless Warlord: (For each enemy you defeat all allies within 30 feet gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls for 3 rounds, each defeat resets the counter to 3 rounds.)

Horrifying blow :(when attacking an opponent make an intimidate check, if successful they lose 5 ac for 10 rounds(this does not stack)

Reflective attack(prerequisite deflect arrows) When aware of a ranged attack against you, you can deflect the attack back at the opponent, if it successfully hits them, you may roll damage as if you hit with your melee weapon)

Relentless Strength(prerequisite str 18, power attack, 5 other relentless fighter special abilities) You can wield a two handed sword , axe, or other non reach weapon in your main hand, and treat it as a normal sized weapon, for making attacks.)

Impressive rampage(prerequisiteCleave, Great cleave,5 other relentless fighter special abilitiesThis ability lasts 1d10 + your con modifier When you drop one enemy with an attack, you may move up to 20 feat to attack another enemy, you may not attack more then 5 enemies with this ability in one round. When this wears off, you are fatigued for 1 hour. You can only activate this ability once ever hour.

any feat that requires you to be a fighter of a certain level treats this class as a fighter, these levels stack with fighter levels.exp a level 6 fighter level 2 ruthless fighter can pick improved weapon focus.

2009-07-04, 01:58 PM
come on any help? bump

2009-07-04, 02:27 PM
1) Chaotic alignment seems unnecessary. You going to tell me a NE or LE fighter can't be ruthless? What about LN? Why, what about TN? Or LG?

2) Skill points? Saves? You left out a LOT of information about the class.

3) Please get a table to make it easier to read. There are many empty tables already around that you can copy paste and plug.

4) Called Shot is just an optional rule. For a basic-equivalent prc, you shouldn't rely on optional rules.

5) Pounce at level 7 with bonus feats. Yeah, sure, ok, let's just make an ubercharger's dream prc. Oh, look, uberchargers are one of the few melee builds that don't need much/any help...

6) Your third level ability can't even APPLY to a good number of characters who take the class. What if they sword and board? A guy with a longsword or a rapier or whatnot can't be 'ruthless'?

7) You gain 1d6 sneak attack at 5th level and 2d6 sneak attack at 6th level. That seems... sketchy. Oh, wait, AND fighter levels? So your fighter can now ubercharge AND sneak attack as well as a rogue?

8) Lastly, I can't even decipher what the capstone does. Immediate attack is what? An immediate action? But you only get one of those a round, and you use them on other people's turns. So now you attack people during their own turn? Wait, and you can make full attacks on other people's turns, assuming you're smart enough, and you... I... strongly suggest you reword that.

CONCLUSION: Try the Guide to Homebrewing section on classes. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313 or sticked in this forum area. Not to be rude, but this is unpolished, broken, and doesn't even work without extensive houseruling that you didn't even provide.

2009-07-04, 02:37 PM
easier way to criticize other then being a ****

2009-07-04, 02:42 PM
You said "Peach." The 'H' stands for 'Honestly.'

You did not ask me to 'peacn' or 'peaciakayc' or the like. It hurts to have something you worked hard on get criticism, but there's not much I can do about it. I'm a fairly abrasive person, and for that I apologize.

On the bright side, you got what you asked for.

2009-07-04, 02:44 PM
edited some

2009-07-04, 03:07 PM
You really should cut down on the bonus feats, too. I mean, really, bonus 6 feats in 6 levels is just as many feats as a 15th level dwarven barbarian would have. There's no reason for that many, ESPECIALLY on top of powerful class abilities.

Oh, and this is meant to be an arch-mage's equivalent, correct? Archmages cannot be gotten into until high levels. Now a fighter just needs to get to level 6 to get in instead of level 5. An archmage still needs to be at least13, and with many resources of which the character is starved for (feats). I would suggest a lot of skill ranks for this, in addition to, say, Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack (if you want to keep it core).

EDIT:: In addition, you still don't have a save progression. EDIT2: Wait it's there now, I probably just missed it.

2009-07-04, 03:09 PM
well the reason it has the bonus feats, is its supposed to continue with fighter progression, so when you hit mid -high level the wizard and fighter are more on par with each other

2009-07-04, 03:17 PM
well the reason it has the bonus feats, is its supposed to continue with fighter progression, so when you hit mid -high level the wizard and fighter are more on par with each other

To quote the debate ad nauseum, "handing out linear abilities to a linear scaling class being compared to a quadratic class will never catch it up."

Furthermore, mid-level fighters are FINE. Casters are powerful if they're built right, and melee are powerful if they're built right. It's at high levels where casters achieve terminal velocity, and an extra 6 feats + pounce is NEVER going to compare to shapeshifting into a red dragon with full wizard spell casting and contingent celerity who is astrally projecting from his demiplane and can teleport to another demiplane where time flows 14400 times faster so he can rememorize ALL SPELLS in a single round and blahblahblahblah.

Don't aim for the top, because no one really likes playing at the top. Aim high, but do so with options. A well built fighter can still be fun to play at high levels. Making a class that automatically builds well for you, and THEN giving the option to build well with what options you have on top of that? You end up with a class that only works in high-power gameplay and still doesn't work because of official books that are more broken than what you did.

2009-07-04, 03:19 PM
like i said its built for a class in my campaign, it fits my needs lol im not saying wizards are op, but i have a two handed fighter that needs something like this. I was asking for help, or suggestions not changing what the class does completely.

2009-07-04, 03:25 PM
like i said its built for a class in my campaign, it fits my needs lol im not saying wizards are op, but i have a two handed fighter that needs something like this. I was asking for help, or suggestions not changing what the class does completely.

Uh, no you did not ask for help or suggestions.

You said "Please Examine and Assess Class Honestly" and that it is "for a campaign you're working on." This does not translate into "please help and give me suggestions" ESPECIALLY since you didn't mention ANYTHING about your campaign, the fluff, the player who you only now brought up, etc. etc. etc. I PEACH'd, and you got mad because I'm not telepathic or something.

(I linked the Homebrew Guide, which has charts ready to be copy pasted and fed numbers for you. Also you can check out the PrC contests which always have a NICE template to work from.)

2009-07-04, 03:40 PM
you could talk like a person, and not like a d'bag. All i want are suggestions i will edit my post as such

2009-07-04, 04:12 PM
He gave you just suggestions in a polite manner. You need to learn how to take constructive criticism.

2009-07-04, 06:56 PM
I'm here to provide some more peaches.

Firstly, there is no flavor. Without flavor, the prestige class kind of falls apart. What is the reason for its abilities? Why the prerequisites? It needs something solid to base a concept around. "Like an archmage, only a fighter" is kind of a sketchy concept, so you're looking for the elite... fighter? An archmage is the master of manipulating arcane energy in different ways, so an arch-warrior is a master of.. weapons? Combat technique? Manipulating the battlefield? Throw me a bone, here.

Must have had a successful called shot result in a kill.
+6 base attack bonus
8 ranks in intimidate

A fightery archmagish class needs more prerequisites. They're supposed to be masters of battle, not fresh rookies hitting their first iterative attack. I'd raise the BAB requirement up to +11 or +13. Needs more skill reqs, since skill points are something fighters lack. Maybe some important feats in a feat chain. Leadership if you're going for the warlord angle, Weapon Focus et al for the weapon master angle.

The "killed something with a called shot" is pretty bad. No flavor whatsoever. It's empty. Unfulfilling. You become a master of war by stabbing someone in the eye? What?

skill points:2+int per level

I guess this is okay.

hit die:d12

Why a d12, something reserved for barbarians?

Pick one type of weapon, you are only proficient in this weapon type.

Lame. Don't make them weaker if you wanted to make them stronger!

base attack bonus and saves, same as fighter

level 1 ,ruthless assault(you no longer take negatives with a called shot)/bonus feat
So I can stab him in the eye as well as I can attack his whole body? That's... interesting. I might as well stab out the eyes of anyone I fight then. Not very... warrior like.

level 2 ,ruthless charge(you can make a full round attack at the end of a charge at a negative 4 penalty)bonus feat
A full attack at the end of a charge at a -4 penalty to what? AC? Attack? If it's attack, it's not really worth it. You lose -5 on your iteratives anyway. And then gain +2 for a charge so... really you're attacking at -2. Overcomplicated.

level 3, ruthless strength(apply 2 1/2 times str mod to 2 handed weapons) also gain improvised weapon proficiencies.
WHY? Why this and improvised weapon profs? What possible reason could you have for this? Do they get stronger? Do they learn how to control their strength better? If so, why do they gain proficiency with improvised weapons along with this?

level 4, ruthless affinity(gain +2 to attack and damage when wielding the weapon of your choosing)bonus feat
Okay. Don't really know why, considering you don't really have to invest any training in a particular weapon beforehand.

level 5, ruthless strike(1d6 sneak attack per every 5 ruthless fighter, and fighter levels, beyond this level)

What's this doing here? This is not a rogue class! Shoo!

level 6, ruthless warlord( when wielding your two handed weapon, you are allowed an attack of oppurtunity against any creature attacking you a number of times per round= to your int bonus)bonus feat

So now they're masters of riposte? The abilities you've given are really really patchy and unfocused. I can't really tell what this class is supposed to be. The bonus feats at every level also are... strange since you get abilities along with them. There's no flavor text to bind the abilities together, and no real reason for someone NOT to take this class. Or take it anyway, since there's no fluff.

The archmage is a good general class because it allows the player to progress with choices. Here, the abilities are presented linearly. That's not as good. Give the abilities as a choice, and give "Super Fighter Ability!" at each level where the player can choose what abilities are pertinent to their character concept. Drop the feats, you don't need them. Add some more abilities, clean it up and do some playtesting, and you may have something.

I'd present it in a table, and if you don't know how those work, do some research and learn how to present it properly. You'll get, on the whole, a much more positive response if you do that.

Also, I don't think called shots are a good idea in d20. Especially not called shots without penalty. Why would anyone do anything else? And you haven't discussed with us the mechanics of the called shot, so we can't judge the balance of the abilities you provide.

Finally, try to make prestige classes around a specific concept, but not a character concept. More than one person must be able to take this class and those two people must have different takes on the same concept. No use tailoring the class to just one concept if it's a segue from the more general fighter class.

It has... potential, but it's not ready for the limelight yet!

2009-07-07, 08:18 AM

2009-07-08, 02:48 AM
Okay dokay, but remember you asked.

First, prestige classes are normally either 5 levels or 10 levels with a few 3 levels. Either reduce it to 5 or expand it to 10.

Second, any class that relies on variant rules (such as called shots) isn't going to be useful to those that don't use those rules. Furthermore, you need to cite to the rules whenever you use varient rules. As in, see page X of Book Y for details. This is only common curtesy.

Why are you calling this class Relentless Fighter when it doesn't use a Fighter's Hit Die? It overpowers the fighter and stomps on the toes on Barbarians. Sure it would be lovely to hand that out, but then the next overpowered prestige class will give Full BAB and D10 hit die to spellcasters. It's a cheat and not one that sits well with most DMs. It's not good for game balance; in fact, It's terrible for game balance. I want my prestige classes to at least balance with each other to a large degree so that players can't claim favoritism.

Ditto for giving a Fighter the ability to backstab. Don't give out other class's special abilities to your class unless your class directly relates to those abilities. Furthermore, that measley 1d6 is almost an insult as an assassin or rogue at the same level can do far more damage, at least 5d6. Don't send a boy out to do a man's job. The Relentless Fighter would be better off hitting people with improvised weapons than with backstabbing them.

Ruthlessly Armed: (Gain improvised weapon proficiencies, also treat them as one weapon size larger,for damage purposes.)

The way you have written this, it sound like you get improvised weapon proficiency with all improvised weapons but you aren't clear about this. Or do you gain improvised weapon proficiency multiple times for each improvised weapon? You need to be clearer about this. Does this mean that you no longer have the -4 attack penalty? You didn't mention this one way or another. What is the purpose behind treating improvised weapons as one size larger and why is it relevant to this class. From my perspective, it just guarantees that the rest of the bar patrons will gang up on him as that is what happens to bullies in bar fights.

Ruthless bash:(you can use a shield as part of a shield bash, and it still benefits the armor class)

Huh? Do you simply mean that if you use your shield as a weapon, you don't lose its AC bonus until your next action. The reason you lose the AC bonus is because it can't cover you while you are bashing someone with it. If I take off my armor and hit you with it, should I still argue that I get its AC benefit? At best, you could be talented enough to be lose only half AC bonus [rounded down].

Relenting blow: (When striking a spell caster who is casting a spell, they must make a concentration check of 10+total levels+1/4 damage rounded down. or lose the spell their casting and the ability to cast for 3 rounds)

This is just DM abuse. Make it a standard Concentration check [10 + damage dealt], the the spell being cast is lost and the caster is stunned for 3 rounds. If this happens on a critical blow, no check is made, the spell is automatically lost, and the spellcaster is automatically stunned for 3 rounds. K.I.S.S. principle.

More to come when I have time...


PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-08, 08:10 AM
Impressive rampage(prerequisiteCleave, Great cleave,5 other relentless fighter special abilitiesWhen you activate this ability, you go into rage(barbarian class ability treated as a barbarian of your total level) When you drop one enemy with an attack, you may move up to 20 feat to attack another enemy, you may not attack more then 5 enemies with this ability in one round. When you are finished, you are fatigued for 1 hour. You can only activate this ability once ever hour.

So if you're a fighter, by taking 6 levels in a single PrC you have the HD and rage of a barbarian of your character level, more bonus feats than a fighter of your character level, and extra abilities on top? Not a good idea.

If you're looking to fix the fighter by pseudo-gestalting it with barbarian, do that. Don't give out a capstone ability that basically invalidates a base class (unless that base class sucks, which the barbarian doesn't).

2009-07-08, 10:11 AM
updated!, also i have seen several prc's with 6 class levels, it may stay 6 it may not.

2009-07-08, 11:35 AM
What you have is interesting, but the abilities don't seem to really give the fighter any new tricks...which it really needs. I sort of feel you need to offer new things to keep the fighter from going through the same old routine. I'm not saying "Use Tome of Battle," but you do need to offer options aside from "add a small bonus."

Personally, I'd keep it at 5 levels, for that "sort-of-archmage" flavor you seem to want. I'd also call it the "Champion," as the Archmage is fairly generic in name. Put abilities (called Combat Mastery) at all five levels, and bonus feats (from the Fighter's feat list) at levels 1, 3, and 5.

In fact...here's what I'd do.

Replace the skill requirement with Base Attack Bonus +13.

Replace the feat requirements with Weapon Focus (any two weapons) and Weapon Specialization (any one weapon). Yes, they're weaker feats. But it gives us a chance to offer up some true power, not just little gimmicks like you seem to have now. They're all just slight improvements on a trick...not something impressive. Perhaps good for a weaker PrC, but for a level 10+ class? Probably not.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Champion gains proficiency in all weapons (including exotic weapons and improvised weapons), as well as in all armor and all shields (including exotic armor, exotic shields, and tower shields).

Combat Masteries

Battle Dervish (Ex): The Champion gain the ability to rend armies asunder. When taking a move or double move action, he may make one free attack at his highest attack bonus each time he moves 5 feet. No single opponent may be attacked more than once in this manner. For example: Gerard Levi, a 3rd level Champion, takes a move action and moves thirty feet during his turn. At any point during this movement he may make up to six free attacks, provided he attacks no single foe more than once. At the end of this movement, he may take a standard action as normal.

Additionally, the Champion no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when taking a move or double move action.

You must have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +15 to select this ability.

Command the Field (Ex): The Champion learns to threaten a larger area and keep his foes close. His reach increases by five feet, and any opponent struck by an attack of opportunity from the Champion is immobilized until its next turn. This ends the foe's movement in the square where the attack was provoked. Note that this helps to solve the Caster problem. A Caster adjacent to the Champion who tries to escape either takes a five foot step (and is still within the threatened area) or takes a withdraw action (and provokes an attack of opportunity).

You must have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +13 to select this ability.

Talent for War (Ex): The Champion can adapt to a variety of fighting styles, given time. He may select any two feats he possesses (including those used to qualify for this class). At the beginning of each day he may replace those feats with any feat he qualifies for (including using one of these floating feats to qualify for the second floating feat). By spending an hour in practice, he may likewise alter his feat selection. If he loses access to his Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats through the use of this ability, he still retains all class abilities.

You may select this ability more than once, choosing different feats each time.

You must have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +14 to select this ability.

Ready for Anything (Ex): The Champion is always ready to learn new tricks. When selecting a bonus feat through a class ability (including choosing feats with the Talent for War ability), he may select any feat that a character of his level could qualify for, even if he does not meet the requirements. For example: a Champion with an Intelligence of 11 could take Combat Expertise as a feat, even though he lacks the 13 Intelligence normally required.

Additionally, the Champion gains two bonus feats from the list of Fighter bonus feats.

You must have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +13 to select this ability.

Master of Opportunity (Ex): The Champion quickly learns to seize every opening. Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from a Champion, the Champion may make an immediate attack as a free action (in addition to the attack of opportunity normally granted). If both this free attack and the attack of opportunity land, the foe must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the Champion's Base Attack Bonus + any bonuses to the attack roll granted by Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, or Weapon Supremacy) or be stunned for 1 round.

Additionally, if the free attack is provoked by the casting of a spell and the attack is successful, the spellcaster loses the spell completely (no Concentration check can negate this effect).

You must have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +15 to select this ability.


Actually, I like where this is going. I may flesh this out completely, and add a few more Combat Masteries (as 4 really isn't enough...the Archmage has 7, so this may end up at 7-8).

Was this something like what you wanted?