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GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 09:00 AM
Is there any way to balence gesalt characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) with normal ones?

Dogmantra
2009-07-04, 09:02 AM
Full spellcaster single-classed vs. Gestalt everything else would be reasonably balanced at mid levels.

only1doug
2009-07-04, 09:04 AM
Is there any way to balence gesalt characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) with normal ones?

Nope, Gestalt are not intended to balance with normal and I can't see a way to overcome the imbalance.

(I'm sure someone will say let lower tier classes gestalt and keep upper tier normal but I balancing that would be too tricky for my liking)

Vortling
2009-07-04, 09:08 AM
This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=21479288d97bd2362f44db54c483bd 58&topic=1002.0) is talking about the D&D 3.5 class tiers but gives a good approximation of gestalt to non-gestalt balance.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 09:08 AM
Unless you're going all out to make a Gestalt build overly broken with Cheese, it's a good way for Melee-based characters to be on par with Spellcasters without ToB handy.

Sure, you get a ton of extra things, but at the same time you still have to remember while you have the good sides of everything, you still only have the HP of a non-gestalt character, and only have one standard action per round.

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 09:12 AM
You can use the homebrewed multiclass-variant that hovered around the forums at some point á la AD&D multiclassing; you put XP into both Gestalt-classes separately and advance in levels in accordance. In other words, you take Gestalt-levels, but slower than usual. It should work out pretty well.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-04, 09:17 AM
You can use the homebrewed multiclass-variant that hovered around the forums at some point á la AD&D multiclassing; you put XP into both Gestalt-classes separately and advance in levels in accordance. In other words, you take Gestalt-levels, but slower than usual. It should work out pretty well.

Half the levelling speed would be balanced by the fact that as CR increases the XP increases; as well as by the bonus XP awarded by the disparity between them and the rest of the party.

Interesting.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-04, 09:29 AM
I've run encounters where the enemies were Gestalt and the PCs weren't without telling the players. Oddly, the only difference is the options. The enemy ended up being on-par with the CR I gave it.


It thrashed one of the players before they dropped it, so it did its job.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 10:01 AM
This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=21479288d97bd2362f44db54c483bd 58&topic=1002.0) is talking about the D&D 3.5 class tiers but gives a good approximation of gestalt to non-gestalt balance.

Huh? Mind being more specific/realising I play 3.5 D&D?

kamikasei
2009-07-04, 10:05 AM
Huh? Mind being more specific/realising I play 3.5 D&D?

The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 10:19 AM
The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

(sigh) He was implying I didn't play D&D (at least that's how I read it). After a bit of thought, though, the relevance of the thing became apparent.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 10:21 AM
Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

Good enough without gestalt:

Tier 1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite
Tier 2: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

May choose an NPC class (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, (Magewright), Warrior) to Gestalt with:

Tier 3: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior
Tier 4: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

May choose another class from this same list to Gestalt with:

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight
Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-04, 10:22 AM
The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

The rules work too, at least from what I've seen so far. I'm running a game on that forum using those rules/tiers, and the players got into the idea really fast.

Korivan
2009-07-04, 10:24 AM
Nope, Gestalt are not intended to balance with normal and I can't see a way to overcome the imbalance.

(I'm sure someone will say let lower tier classes gestalt and keep upper tier normal but I balancing that would be too tricky for my liking)

not to mention the hassle with figuring out different xp for different people. I dont know about you, but I like to have the least amount extras to deal with so its easier to dm.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-04, 10:33 AM
not to mention the hassle with figuring out different xp for different people. I dont know about you, but I like to have the least amount extras to deal with so its easier to dm.

You don't need to change the XP with partial gestalt, just the encounters/day need an increase from 4 to around 6.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 10:36 AM
Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)
Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realises they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something. :smallconfused:
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gsalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.

TSED
2009-07-04, 10:42 AM
(sigh) He was implying I didn't play D&D (at least that's how I read it). After a bit of thought, though, the relevance of the thing became apparent.

What?

No he wasn't.

I keep rereading what he said looking for the insult you've perceived and I cannot find it.

At all.


At all.

Mayhaps you're just being overly sensitive?

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 10:55 AM
Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)
Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realizes they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something. :smallconfused:
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gesalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.
Oh, fine, I'll spoiler it...
Belkar'd probably choose Expert for the skillpoints. :smallbiggrin:

Roy... Well, he definitely wouldn't be taking Pally now... Hmm... Unless he wanted to be able to easily double-check that he was going back to where he thought he was going. And I think he'd refuse to take Adept or Magewright to make more use out of his Int score on general principle/patricidal sentiment...

O-chul would be a full fighter-paladin rather than a multiclassed fighter6(ish?)/pally3(ish?). So, more feats for him, and whatever it is that Pallys get that he has the stats to qualify for :/...

Hinjo: obligated to take aristocrat levels? :smallconfused:

Agree about Haley and warrior... Maybe, just maybe adept(spells) or aristocrat(fluffy feelings inside).


Also, GWG I agree with TSED, I'm kinda confuzzled about what about that caused you to become upset.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 10:57 AM
What?

No he wasn't.

I keep rereading what he said looking for the insult you've perceived and I cannot find it.

At all.


At all.

Mayhaps you're just being overly sensitive?

First off: No insult.
Second off: It's something I interpreted, but later realised wasn't there.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 11:00 AM
Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)
Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realises they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something. :smallconfused:
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gsalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.

Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 11:07 AM
Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

Heh, point about Roy... Say, didn't Mr. Burlew help write up the Dungeoncrasher variant? :smallconfused: ...He wrote something for WOTC, didn't he?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 11:13 AM
Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

Since you replied in a spoiler...
I meant before the castle-go-blow-up thing for Miko.
Yeah, Warrior's redundant for B.
Why'd Roy need Expert? He could choose Monk for the same effect, plus some cool class abilities (most if which, sadly, are negated by armor...).
Elan's explanation is fine, but it requires him to remember to use the option...hence what I said.
Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" both overpowered spellcasters AND balencing gesalt. In (checks) a bit over two hours. Good job, playground.

kamikasei
2009-07-04, 11:17 AM
Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" ... overpowered spellcasters

It really hasn't.

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 11:22 AM
Since you replied in a spoiler...
I meant before the castle-go-blow-up thing for Miko.
Yeah, Warrior's redundant for B.
Why'd Roy need Expert? He could choose Monk for the same effect, plus some cool class abilities (most if which, sadly, are negated by armor...).
Elan's explanation is fine, but it requires him to remember to use the option...hence what I said.
Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" both overpowered spellcasters AND balencing gesalt. In (checks) a bit over two hours. Good job, playground.

Roy benefits of Expert much more 'cause he's smart (and has all high mentals) and skilled and thus can make use of 6+Int skills (especially since with ranks, he's pretty good at anything) and having class skills of his choice over Monk (I mean, he hasn't really showed any desire to fight unarmed) is pretty major. Monk would have few decent feats on low levels, but beyond that, Expert just does it better ('cause Roy is NOT going unarmored and unarmed, thus negating 90% of Monk's class features).

ColdSepp
2009-07-04, 11:25 AM
Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?



Dungeonscape.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 11:27 AM
Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Dungeoncrasher is in Dungeonscape.

Korivan
2009-07-04, 11:32 AM
Now that I think about it...I know the PERFECT gestalt character for this. He'd blend in so well with normal characters that nobody would think he's gestalt. One of our group members is a human rouge/ranger... Its a human heavy world but he hasnt taken favored enemy humonoid (or whetever he needs.) Has a 10 WIS and is level 5...So he doesnt have any ability to use ranger spells yet, or possibly ever depending on what he does. He relies heavily on a bow, but stays far enough away so point blank shot, and sneak attack dont work. Tends to get caught up in melee...alot...alot alot. We are in a low magic item world, so his ability to get things upgraded or buy magic items is rare or non-existant (one of our players is a fighter/mage, working on taking alot of craft feats though.) I think he's a fair match for a normal charcter....or 5 kobolds

Indon
2009-07-04, 11:53 AM
I'm planning out a game now in which limited gestalt options replace WBL for players - so only PC's and dangerous NPC's have that power (as it's equivalent to having and using magic items).

If I run it in the near future, I'll post back here.

TSED
2009-07-04, 12:02 PM
Now that I think about it...I know the PERFECT gestalt character for this. He'd blend in so well with normal characters that nobody would think he's gestalt. One of our group members is a human rouge/ranger... Its a human heavy world but he hasnt taken favored enemy humonoid (or whetever he needs.) Has a 10 WIS and is level 5...So he doesnt have any ability to use ranger spells yet, or possibly ever depending on what he does. He relies heavily on a bow, but stays far enough away so point blank shot, and sneak attack dont work. Tends to get caught up in melee...alot...alot alot. We are in a low magic item world, so his ability to get things upgraded or buy magic items is rare or non-existant (one of our players is a fighter/mage, working on taking alot of craft feats though.) I think he's a fair match for a normal charcter....or 5 kobolds

If he keeps getting caught up in melee, surely sneak attack is going to show up?

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 12:05 PM
Aye, what with flanking and all, right?

Korivan
2009-07-04, 12:14 PM
Think again, hes charged in, failed spot checks from ambushes, landed in tight spots, and so on. He gets into the spot of being cut off, surrounded, or on his own. We've had him scout ahead since, you know, we figured he would have max ranks in hide and move silently, and a good DEX modifier, he has yet to avoid being caught. And thieves dont do so well trying to be fighters when outnumbered...

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 02:42 PM
It really hasn't.
Better than some. I do humbly belive a gesalt paladin/fighter or somesuch is closer to a normal wizard than a fighter is.


Roy benefits of Expert much more 'cause he's smart (and has all high mentals) and skilled and thus can make use of 6+Int skills (especially since with ranks, he's pretty good at anything) and having class skills of his choice over Monk (I mean, he hasn't really showed any desire to fight unarmed) is pretty major. Monk would have few decent feats on low levels, but beyond that, Expert just does it better ('cause Roy is NOT going unarmored and unarmed, thus negating 90% of Monk's class features).
Monks have other pluses, like good reflex saves and the abilities armor DOESN'T negate. Plus some help if Roy loses his gear for some reason.
Trading that for 2 skill points/level? Nah.


Dungeoncrasher is in Dungeonscape.
Which is, sadly, one of those books I don't have.

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 02:45 PM
Monks have other pluses, like good reflex saves and the abilities armor DOESN'T negate. Plus some help if Roy loses his gear for some reason.
Trading that for 2 skill points/level? Nah.

I dunno. Something just tells me that Roy wouldn't enjoy the inflexibility and rigidness of being a monk for similar reasons to why he wouldn't enjoy being a paladin. In addition to him not seeming like he'd like the flavor.

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 02:55 PM
Monks have other pluses, like good reflex saves and the abilities armor DOESN'T negate. Plus some help if Roy loses his gear for some reason.
Trading that for 2 skill points/level? Nah.

All the stuff Monk gives him is pretty minor. 2 skills per level is at least a fast trade for that, and in addition getting to choose ANY class skills (Use Magic Device? Iaijutsu Focus? Lucid Dreaming? Anything!) is just insane; there're a few great skills that are hard to access and Monk doesn't get any of them. And thanks to the extra skill points, he can max them out. The short of it: With Expert, he becomes a better Fighter.

With Monk, he becomes a slightly better Fighter with a backup plan if he loses all his equipment. I know I'd take Expert any day. As you should have figured out from all the Monk-threads, the stuff Monk gets really isn't that good. The feats are nice, but he's a high-level straight Fighter; he already has enough to do what he does. I'm going to claim Expert is actually the stronger alternative of the two provided he doesn't constantly get disarmed (so far, he's had trouble acquiring a weapon for a combat...once?).

only1doug
2009-07-04, 04:41 PM
All the stuff Monk gives him is pretty minor. 2 skills per level is at least a fast trade for that, and in addition getting to choose ANY class skills (Use Magic Device? Iaijutsu Focus? Lucid Dreaming? Anything!) is just insane; there're a few great skills that are hard to access and Monk doesn't get any of them. And thanks to the extra skill points, he can max them out. The short of it: With Expert, he becomes a better Fighter.

With Monk, he becomes a slightly better Fighter with a backup plan if he loses all his equipment. I know I'd take Expert any day. As you should have figured out from all the Monk-threads, the stuff Monk gets really isn't that good. The feats are nice, but he's a high-level straight Fighter; he already has enough to do what he does. I'm going to claim Expert is actually the stronger alternative of the two provided he doesn't constantly get disarmed (so far, he's had trouble acquiring a weapon for a combat...once?).

Agreed.

Remember: if a fighter loses his weapon a replacement can be hard to find, after all great clubs don't just grow on trees you know...
(aka why wizards learn greater magic weapon)

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-06, 05:52 PM
Compare the benifets for a gesalt fighter/expert v. those of a gesalt fighter/monk:
Expert:
4 extra skill points
Ability to choose ANY 10 other skills
Good Will saves
Flavor

Monk
2 extra skill points
11 (maybe more, I didn't check to make sure that all fighter skills were on the monk list) extra skills
Good Will and Reflex saves
Bonus feats
Proficiencies
Ability to use foot/headbutt as off-hand attack
Still Mind, Ki strike (with a ki focus weapon), Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul (can be a nuisance if V/Durkon needs to cast a spell on Roy in combat, but one can lower SR), Quivering Palm (technically would work with greatsword), Timeless Body, Tounge of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self
Relatively ready if, for some reason, he needed to disarm/disarmor at some spot
Pure awesomeness (killing Xykon with a roundhouse kick or charging headbutt is so much cooler than smacking him with a sword, and with Magic Fang would be able to pierce DR)
Yeah, the expert is a lot better, choice of any skill, flavor, and 2 skill points/level is much better than good Reflex saves, at least one extra class skill, bonus feats, a bunch of cool/semi-useful abilities, more abilities that are useful just in case he loses armor/weapon, etc...[/sarcasm]

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 06:00 PM
Roy is a Fighter dedicated to the Greatsword with his feats. His ancestral Greatsword. He's not going to waste time getting a ki one, not use his fists (even as an off-hand attack, the penalties would be huge and pointless). The rest of those abilities are likewise useless (Slow Fall wouldn't even have saved him from death if he were 20th level, that's how worthless it is).

Autohypnosis and UMD are better than the Monk class on their own, not to mention the 8 other skills Roy would get.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:30 PM
My question is... what would a factotum get out of multiclassing with any of the NPC classes?

Vaynor
2009-07-06, 09:57 PM
Make all of the Gestalt people go Samurai//Truenamer.

Vortling
2009-07-06, 10:40 PM
My question is... what would a factotum get out of multiclassing with any of the NPC classes?

Warrior would grant Good Fort saves and Full BaB. Useful if you wanted a more martial factotum. Adept would grant spells the factotum doesn't have, thus saving money to purchase other things to UMD. Additionally, even the slow casting progression of the adept is better than the casting the factotum receives and it includes many useful spells.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 07:03 AM
Compare the benifets for a gesalt fighter/expert v. those of a gesalt fighter/monk:
Expert:
4 extra skill points
Ability to choose ANY 10 other skills
Good Will saves
Flavor

Monk
2 extra skill points
11 14 extra skills [including allstars like Perform, Profession, Heal, Concentration, et co.]
Good Will and Reflex saves
Bonus feats
Proficiencies [all of them are ****]
Ability to use foot/headbutt as off-hand attack
Still Mind, Ki strike (with a ki focus weapon), Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul (can be a nuisance if V/Durkon needs to cast a spell on Roy in combat, but one can lower SR), Quivering Palm (technically would work with greatsword), Timeless Body, Tounge of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self
Relatively ready if, for some reason, he needed to disarm/disarmor at some spot
Pure awesomeness (killing Xykon with a roundhouse kick or charging headbutt is so much cooler than smacking him with a sword, and with Magic Fang would be able to pierce DR)
Yeah, the expert is a lot better, choice of any skill, flavor, and 2 skill points/level is much better than good Reflex saves, at least one extra class skill, bonus feats, a bunch of cool/semi-useful abilities, more abilities that are useful just in case he loses armor/weapon, etc...[/sarcasm]

Removed the ****. That leaves Monk with 14 skills NOT of your choice (including at least 4 total ****piles...oh, and lack of ability to pick up Use Magic Device, Iaijutsu Focus, Use Psionic Device, etc. - the good skills), one good save and two per-day abilities (in couple of levels) vs. Expert's 2 extra skillpoints and customizable skill list.

Again, the feats are totally worthless to a Fighter without much of out-of-core access (because Fighter already gets so many he doesn't have good ones left to pick), and the rest only comes into play when unarmed (which, let's face it, Roy isn't...ever). Also removed the flavour-**** since it has nothing to do with your class.

So yeah, Expert does win out in my books. Reflex-saves just aren't all that important (and he already has decent ones thanks to his Dex), most of Monk's skills are of little use to him (and the ones that are useful, he can not only pick but MAX OUT thanks to being Expert and getting extra skillpoints), and Monk's class features are either 1/day, unusable in armor or just useless overall (majority of them).

Indon
2009-07-07, 08:23 AM
All the stuff Monk gives him is pretty minor. 2 skills per level is at least a fast trade for that, and in addition getting to choose ANY class skills (Use Magic Device? Iaijutsu Focus? Lucid Dreaming? Anything!) is just insane; there're a few great skills that are hard to access and Monk doesn't get any of them.

Roy is unlikely to care about skill cheese.

I imagine his player'd convince his DM that the Fighter Feat variant Rogue would be weak enough to gestalt with (as he wouldn't benefit from the feat progression), so he'd do it to gain the Rogue skill list and good Reflex saves - after all, Haley'd be more than willing to train him.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 08:27 AM
Roy is unlikely to care about skill cheese.

No reason to cheese it then. Just pick the ones he wants :P Point about the extra points (compared to Monk, lacking 2 vs. Rogue) allowing maxing out whatever he wants stands.

But yeah, Rogue would be a solid pick, although I can't see Roy really getting Dominated/anything, so I think the good Will-save progression is right with Expert/Fighter (while he hasn't shown too much interest for dodging AoE effects so Reflex sorta seems out of place).

Indon
2009-07-07, 09:09 AM
I imagine he has pretty low dex (and is unlikely to bother ever getting it higher), and for his first rogue special ability, he'd probably go with Slippery Mind (and for subsequent ones, he'd probably just take bonus feats).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 09:54 AM
I think Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) would probably be a better fit, a few more class skills that he actually may take ranks in and some extra special ability choices.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-07, 01:20 PM
Removed the ****. That leaves Monk with 14 skills NOT of your choice (including at least 4 total ****piles...oh, and lack of ability to pick up Use Magic Device, Iaijutsu Focus, Use Psionic Device, etc. - the good skills), one good save and two per-day abilities (in couple of levels) vs. Expert's 2 extra skillpoints and customizable skill list.

Again, the feats are totally worthless to a Fighter without much of out-of-core access (because Fighter already gets so many he doesn't have good ones left to pick), and the rest only comes into play when unarmed (which, let's face it, Roy isn't...ever). Also removed the flavour-**** since it has nothing to do with your class.

So yeah, Expert does win out in my books. Reflex-saves just aren't all that important (and he already has decent ones thanks to his Dex), most of Monk's skills are of little use to him (and the ones that are useful, he can not only pick but MAX OUT thanks to being Expert and getting extra skillpoints), and Monk's class features are either 1/day, unusable in armor or just useless overall (majority of them).

First off, I only mentioned flavor because someone else used that as part of his/her argument.
Next, yeah, most abilities are useless in armor. I only listed ones that you could still use. They aren't all uber-useful, but so what? Roy's never been optimised. The expert's only advantage is skills, and the mnok isn't totally ****, as you put it. And what all isn't cool about Roy using headbutts or whatnot?
Plus, with a mere Amulet of Natural Weapons or whatnot, or when he gets Ki strike (magic), Roy can kick Xykon and get thriugh his DR.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 02:09 PM
First off, I only mentioned flavor because someone else used that as part of his/her argument.
Next, yeah, most abilities are useless in armor. I only listed ones that you could still use. They aren't all uber-useful, but so what? Roy's never been optimised. The expert's only advantage is skills, and the mnok isn't totally ****, as you put it. And what all isn't cool about Roy using headbutts or whatnot?

Expert's advantage is skills and Monk's advantage is Reflex-save with few sporadic abilities of little relevance. Again, I'd rather take a relevant number of skillpoints and choice in what skills to get over a set skill list with less points in exchange for some saves. Also, what does Roy being/not being optimized have to do with anything?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-14, 07:54 PM
Expert's advantage is skills and Monk's advantage is Reflex-save with few sporadic abilities of little relevance. Again, I'd rather take a relevant number of skillpoints and choice in what skills to get over a set skill list with less points in exchange for some saves. Also, what does Roy being/not being optimized have to do with anything?

Why is extra skills>>what monks get? Lots of the monk's stuff is cool. If nothing else.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 08:13 PM
Why is extra skills>>what monks get? Lots of the monk's stuff is cool. If nothing else.

I'd imagine Roy has/would want Bluff, Gather Information, a bunch of Knowledges and so on in class given how he's handled those checks in the past. Monk offers none of those (it does offer Diplomacy and Sense Motive though). And the extra points would help make his various talents happen.

The reason I find that better than Monk is that Monk's stuff just frankly isn't that useful to a Fighter like Roy. Improved Unarmed Strike? Psh, he'll fight with weapons anyways. Flurry of Blows? I think he's still fighting with weapons, and wears an armor. AC bonus? Oh wait, armor. Speed, etc.? Yeah, still armor. Ki Strikes? Not using Unarmed Strikes. Slow Fall? Err, what? (no, it wouldn't have saved him 'cause he wasn't next to a wall) In the end, he'd end up with Improved Trip, Improved Grapple and I guess Combat Reflexes for his troubles.

Nice, but frankly he has enough feats to get those anyways if he wants them without losing much, and what Monk doesn't give, skill points & certain specific class skills, is something he does need (and indeed, showcase).

Oslecamo
2009-07-15, 02:16 AM
Also, what does Roy being/not being optimized have to do with anything?

He's a fighter specialized in greatswords who willingly choose to fight whitout greatswords for several days.

He would totally pick up commoner as his other gestalt side just for the lulz, because his job isn't to make the uberest character ever, but to entertain us.

Yora
2009-07-15, 05:23 AM
Why is it called Gestalt anyway?

Gestalt is a german word meaning shape or form, but why would anyone use it in this context?

AmberVael
2009-07-15, 08:32 AM
Gestalt
ge·stalt or Ge·stalt
n., pl. -stalts or -stalts or -stalt·en or -stalt·en
A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts.

(and the etymology is indeed german).

Essentially, it kinda works, and fits with the fantasy/RPG theme of naming things with uncommon words so it sounds more interesting. They could have called them Fusion or Alloy characters, but that doesn't sound as nice as Gestalt, does it?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-20, 07:31 PM
I'd imagine Roy has/would want Bluff, Gather Information, a bunch of Knowledges and so on in class given how he's handled those checks in the past. Monk offers none of those (it does offer Diplomacy and Sense Motive though). And the extra points would help make his various talents happen.

The reason I find that better than Monk is that Monk's stuff just frankly isn't that useful to a Fighter like Roy. Improved Unarmed Strike? Psh, he'll fight with weapons anyways. Flurry of Blows? I think he's still fighting with weapons, and wears an armor. AC bonus? Oh wait, armor. Speed, etc.? Yeah, still armor. Ki Strikes? Not using Unarmed Strikes. Slow Fall? Err, what? (no, it wouldn't have saved him 'cause he wasn't next to a wall) In the end, he'd end up with Improved Trip, Improved Grapple and I guess Combat Reflexes for his troubles.

Nice, but frankly he has enough feats to get those anyways if he wants them without losing much, and what Monk doesn't give, skill points & certain specific class skills, is something he does need (and indeed, showcase).


Most of what he gets is KINDA useless...but in the right situation, they'd be useful. He could have probably taken on half of the Saphire Guard (admitadly, the low-level half :smallbiggrin:) if he'd gesalted then. He might be forced to disarm at a city gate. A few abilities (quivering palm, and ki abilities if he upgraded his greatsword) can be used even with his arms and armor. And so on. Plus the fact that, technically, Roy would have to take a tier 5/6 class, not an NPC class, to gesalt with. Lame argument, maybe, but we know that rules are taken strictly to humorous effect.

:haley: Guess what?
:elan: You're not pregnent, are you?
:OotS: ...
:elan: I mean, not that she would be...
:haley: We'er switching over to a tier-based gesalt system!
:vaarsuvius: I notice no change.
:durkon: Aye, we be tier 1.
:haley: I choose fighter!
:elan: But you're tier-
:haley: Shush!
:belkar: I choose to go ranger/barbarian!
:haley: Sorry, it's a no-go.
:belkar: Crap.
:elan: Er, warrior for Bard! And adept for Dashing Swordsman! Just don't let me forget.
:haley: I won't.
:roy: Expert for me!
:durkon: Lad, that be an NPC class. Ye must choose a tier 5 or 6 class.
:roy: Crap.
:elan: (whispers)
:roy: Why would I want to be monk?
:belkar: I choose expert!
:VoiceFromAbove: Durkon and Vaarsivus are not gesalt. Elan has chosen warrior and adept. Haley has chosen fighter. Belkar has chosen Expert. Roy has chosen-
:roy: No, I haven't!
:VoiceFromAbove: -monk.
:OotS: ...
:roy: Crap.

Edit: As an example, V, Haley, and Belkar didn't Spot a horde of goblins...nor did they Listen (er, hear) when one of them spoke.

AmberVael
2009-07-20, 08:59 PM
Plus the fact that, technically, Roy would have to take a tier 5/6 class, not an NPC class, to gesalt with. Lame argument, maybe...
Very lame, as its wrong. :smalltongue:
Expert is a tier 5 class. Says so right on the list.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-24, 07:25 PM
Very lame, as its wrong. :smalltongue:
Expert is a tier 5 class. Says so right on the list.

Oopsie. Stupid 10 character rule.