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Meshakhad
2009-07-05, 03:50 PM
According to many, Batman can defeat anyone with enough preparation time. But I have a foe he may not be able to prepare for: the Doctor.

For purposes of this battle, Batman gets 24 hours preparation time. The Doctor gets full access to the TARDIS and the companion of his choice.

Nevrmore
2009-07-05, 03:52 PM
For fully and completely biased reasons (them being that I hate Dr. Who), I'm going to say that Batman, considering the doctor fair game to kill seeing as he's an alien, stuffs him in a large chamber, cryogenically freezes him, and shatters him with a large hammer. Then does it again when he resurrects himself, and then again as many times as it takes to get to his 12th and final reincarnation.

DamnedIrishman
2009-07-05, 03:53 PM
Batman wins eventually because the Doctor will always let him go.

bladedSmoke
2009-07-05, 04:31 PM
BatmanThe Doctor wins eventually because the Doctor Batman will always let him go.

Fixed that for ya. :smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 04:33 PM
Batman wins.

Why?

Because he's the goddamn Batman. And the Doctor is... well, a nobody. He's not even globally famous. Everyone knows Batman.

Hell, we even have a city named after him (even though it was named before he was created).

Kyouhen
2009-07-05, 04:35 PM
And so we have it! Batman won't kill The Doctor (even if he's technically an alien, he still looks human) and The Doctor won't kill Batman. They'll just keep capturing and releasing each other until they both die of old age. And if The Doctor can't die of old age, then he wins.

The_JJ
2009-07-05, 04:36 PM
And so we have it! Batman won't kill The Doctor (even if he's technically an alien, he still looks human) and The Doctor won't kill Batman. They'll just keep capturing and releasing each other until they both die of old age. And if The Doctor can't die of old age, then he wins.

This.
/thread

HamHam
2009-07-05, 05:05 PM
Why do they have to kill each other to win? That's dumb.

The most likely scenario is that Batman goes off on one of his paranoid rampages and tries to build some kind of time machine that will let him go back and stop all crimes before they happen or something, and the Doctor shows up to stop him because he's meddling with forces beyond his ken or the like.

And then the question is whether the Doctor can stop him or not.

Starscream
2009-07-05, 05:11 PM
Do we have a reason for them fighting? Because I can't think of any good reason for them to do so. They'd probably team up and give Darkseid a wedgie or something.

Skorj
2009-07-05, 05:53 PM
Dr Who, because there's no such thing as "adquate time to prepare" against a time machine. Batman could only prepare adequately by building a time machine himself, since a time machine wins over ordinary preparation every time. Two competing time machines starts the Time Wars, and the Time Wars must have a universal victor that crushes everyone else before they can get started (think about it, it's the only way they would ever "end"). That's the Time Lords for you.

Also, Dr Who does kill people as a last resort (and his companions have occasionally been quite bloodthirsty), it's only genocide of entire species where he draws the line, so really that's not an issue.

Of course, Batman did beat Superman, so one never knows.

Salty
2009-07-05, 06:00 PM
Do we have a reason for them fighting? Because I can't think of any good reason for them to do so. They'd probably team up and give Darkseid a wedgie or something.

Yeah, this seems likely. I really can't think of any reason the Doctor would be after Batman. The only reaction I could imagine the Doctor having to any hostilities would be to leave, because I don't see any way that Batman would be willing to do something despicable enough to get the Doctor's attention.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 06:31 PM
...because I don't see any way that Batman would be willing to do something despicable enough to get the Doctor's attention.

Well, he does kick people in the head for having ice-cream.

Salty
2009-07-05, 06:44 PM
Well, he does kick people in the head for having ice-cream.

I haven't read that much Batman. That just seems...chilling. :smalleek: Although unless he killed a large number of innocents, I don't see him making a blip on the Doctor's plot radar.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 06:50 PM
Well, he does kick people in the head for having ice-cream.

It was poisoned. Doing that was the only way to prevent that man from dying.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 06:50 PM
I haven't read that much Batman. That just seems...chilling. :smalleek: Although unless he killed a large number of innocents, I don't see him making a blip on the Doctor's plot radar.

Actually, neither do I. I'm pretty sure it makes sense in context, but most people are introduced to that aspect of Batman through a specific image. Just Google "Batman Alignment" to find it.

EDIT: Dammit, ninja'd.

Zaphrasz
2009-07-05, 07:02 PM
Dr Who, because there's no such thing as "adquate time to prepare" against a time machine.Batman beat Chronos, the guy who invented a time machine in his garage. Sure, he had the Justice League helping him with the brute force work, but it was he who understood and reprogrammed the device to ultimately defeat him. So Batman is familiar with the mechanics of time travel, and knows how to counteract them. I think he can take the Doctor out.

Salty
2009-07-05, 07:08 PM
Batman beat Chronos, the guy who invented a time machine in his garage. Sure, he had the Justice League helping him with the brute force work, but it was he who understood and reprogrammed the device to ultimately defeat him. So Batman is familiar with the mechanics of time travel, and knows how to counteract them. I think he can take the Doctor out.

The TARDIS has been described as an entity. A living organism. The overload of power gained from gazing into the heart is enough to kill a Timelord (well, cause him/her to regenerate). I don't think that Batman would be able to control it. Besides, the TARDIS is able to travel through space as well as time.


It was poisoned. Doing that was the only way to prevent that man from dying.

That makes a lot more sense. I was disturbed for a while. :smallsmile:

Starscream
2009-07-05, 07:14 PM
The problem with beating Batman is that even if you can do it (and good luck with that) you then have to deal with his friends.

He's worked with pretty much every big gun in the DCU. And if they hear that some alien showed up and whacked the Bat they are going to come gunning for you no matter how many times you claim to have saved the universe.

Who do you think is going to get involved if the Doctor is killed?

UNIT? They can't handle anything bulletproof. And seeing as getting shot at is a pretty common hazard when fighting crime, pretty much every superhero is this to some degree.

Sarah Jane? I can't imagine many Justice League members running in terror from her tin dog.

Torchwood? Just throw some adult magazines and run the other way.

I kid, I kid.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-05, 07:18 PM
I'm going to guess that no matter what happens, there won't be a clear "winner" because both characters are mind-crushingly plot-contortingly brilliant, and merciful.

It isn't going to be a game of "Kill the enemy" it's going to be a competition to achieve a goal, and either neither or both of them is going to going to walk away happy.

Salty
2009-07-05, 07:20 PM
The problem with beating Batman is that even if you can do it (and good luck with that) you then have to deal with his friends.

He's worked with pretty much every big gun in the DCU. And if they hear that some alien showed up and whacked the Bat they are going to come gunning for you no matter how many times you claim to have saved the universe.

Who do you think is going to get involved if the Doctor is killed?

UNIT? They can't handle anything bulletproof. And seeing as getting shot at is a pretty common hazard when fighting crime, pretty much every superhero is this to some degree.

Sarah Jane? I can't imagine many Justice League members running in terror from her tin dog.

Torchwood? Just throw some adult magazines and run the other way.

I kid, I kid.

Yeah, the Doctor's allies may not be able to help, but nothing's stopping the Doctor from jumping into the TARDIS and traveling somewhere or somewhen that he couldn't be reached.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 07:23 PM
Yeah, the Doctor's allies may not be able to help, but nothing's stopping the Doctor from jumping into the TARDIS and traveling somewhere or somewhen that he couldn't be reached.

Batman has living gods as allies. If anything, I think a member of the Quintessence is an honorary member of the Justice League. Superman, given enough power, can break down the barriers between universes. There is nowhere that could not be reached by a DC superhero on good terms with Batman.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-05, 07:25 PM
Batman has living gods as allies. If anything, I think a member of the Quintessence is an honorary member of the Justice League. Superman, given enough power, can break down the barriers between universes. There is nowhere that could not be reached by a DC superhero on good terms with Batman.

Anyone who kills the Doctor will immediately be hunted by Cybermen, Daleks, and everything else under the unified banner of "KILL STEALERRRRRR"

Salty
2009-07-05, 07:31 PM
Not a sufficient argument, but I found this (http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs49/f/2009/186/8/4/Giantitp_Forums_Occurrance_by_1337Salty.jpg) funny.


Anyone who kills the Doctor will immediately be hunted by Cybermen, Daleks, and everything else under the unified banner of "KILL STEALERRRRRR"

Yes, win. :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 07:33 PM
Anyone who kills the Doctor will immediately be hunted by Cybermen, Daleks, and everything else under the unified banner of "KILL STEALERRRRRR"

Well, I'm not sure about the relative omnipotence levels of Torchwood-verse (although I do hear about its omnisexuality levels quite often), but how capable they are of going against, say, the Phantom Stranger? Captain Marvel? Zatanna?

HamHam
2009-07-05, 07:44 PM
Well, I'm not sure about the relative omnipotence levels of Torchwood-verse (although I do hear about its omnisexuality levels quite often), but how capable they are of going against, say, the Phantom Stranger? Captain Marvel? Zatanna?

We would destroy the Justice League with one Dalek!

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 07:45 PM
We would destroy the Justice League with one Dalek!

Dalek:"EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
The Big Red Cheese: "That tickled."

averagejoe
2009-07-05, 07:48 PM
The problem with beating Batman is that even if you can do it (and good luck with that) you then have to deal with his friends.

He's worked with pretty much every big gun in the DCU. And if they hear that some alien showed up and whacked the Bat they are going to come gunning for you no matter how many times you claim to have saved the universe.

Who do you think is going to get involved if the Doctor is killed?

UNIT? They can't handle anything bulletproof. And seeing as getting shot at is a pretty common hazard when fighting crime, pretty much every superhero is this to some degree.

Sarah Jane? I can't imagine many Justice League members running in terror from her tin dog.

Torchwood? Just throw some adult magazines and run the other way.

I kid, I kid.

I don't understand the relevance of this line of thinking. Even if Superman punches the doctor in the face really hard, it doesn't change the fact that the Doctor won in the Doctor v. Batman fight.

Trizap
2009-07-05, 07:54 PM
Doctor Vs. Batman? dude, that is like saying "unstoppable force vs. immovable object" there is no answer, the try to outsmart each other, they fail in a super-mega-thirty xanatos pileup that results in canceling both of their genius's out, they recognize that they can't beat each other and become friends.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 07:56 PM
Doctor Vs. Batman? dude, that is like saying "unstoppable force vs. immovable object" there is no answer, the try to outsmart each other, they fail in a super-mega-thirty xanatos pileup that results in canceling both of their genius's out, they recognize that they can't beat each other and become friends.

Or as Superman once put it: "They yield".

kpenguin
2009-07-05, 07:56 PM
They both realize, probably at the same time, that they're being duped and team up to kick the ass of whoever set them up?

Meshakhad, you're in trouble...

Faulty
2009-07-05, 08:02 PM
This thread is boring. Where's the Samus?

Trizap
2009-07-05, 08:07 PM
This thread is boring. Where's the Samus?

busy either being completely destroyed by Batman's crazy-preparedness (maybe he packed some phazon?) or being defeated by one of the Doctors brilliant ideas in action.

HamHam
2009-07-05, 08:15 PM
I think the Doctor might come out on top because he's better at improvisation when push comes to shove. Batman has his whole preparation thing, but the Doctor can out-MacGyver MacGyver.

On the other hand, Batman's stoic disposition would counter one of the Doctor's greatest weapons: talking. He just starts talking and the bad guys usually stand there and listen to him babble for an hour while he secretly programs their ship to fly into the nearest star.

Viv
2009-07-05, 08:16 PM
Also, Dr Who does kill people as a last resort (and his companions have occasionally been quite bloodthirsty), it's only genocide of entire species where he draws the line, so really that's not an issue.

And even then, in special cases, he'll go with genocide.


Batman has living gods as allies. If anything, I think a member of the Quintessence is an honorary member of the Justice League. Superman, given enough power, can break down the barriers between universes. There is nowhere that could not be reached by a DC superhero on good terms with Batman.

By most definitions, the Time Lords can easily be considered Gods as well. Did you see what Rose and the Doctor did when they absorbed the heart of the TARDIS?

It seriously costs a Time Lord to do so, but the power that they are capable of bringing to bear is indistinguishable from that of a God.

Starscream
2009-07-05, 11:35 PM
We would destroy the Justice League with one Dalek!

The Justice League would destroy the Daleks with one Kryptonian.


This thread is boring. Where's the Samus?

Hey, so that's what they're fighting over. Finally this thread makes sense!

Meshakhad
2009-07-06, 02:36 AM
They both realize, probably at the same time, that they're being duped and team up to kick the ass of whoever set them up?

Meshakhad, you're in trouble...

/thread

Of course, this is why I set up an elaborate scheme implicating Wolfram & Hart.

kpenguin
2009-07-06, 03:44 AM
/thread

Of course, this is why I set up an elaborate scheme implicating Wolfram & Hart.

You really think you can fool the GODDAMN BATMAN and THE DOCTOR? You, sir, have an overabundance in nerve and a shocking deficiency in sense.

Cheesegear
2009-07-06, 04:12 AM
For purposes of this battle, Batman gets 24 hours preparation time. The Doctor gets full access to the TARDIS and the companion of his choice.

You say nothing about ethics, right? And, considering the Doctor would probably abhor (most of) Batman's methods, the Doctor goes back in time to save Bruce's parents from getting killed. Bruce does not become Batman in the future. And there is no fighting between the Doctor and Batman.

There are no problems. Ever. If Time Travel is an ability.

kamikasei
2009-07-06, 04:33 AM
I have no interest in the actual versus, but:


...Batman, considering the doctor fair game to kill seeing as he's an alien...


Batman won't kill The Doctor (even if he's technically an alien, he still looks human)...

...what? Has it been established at some point that Batman is willing to kill non-humans? Isn't that... kind of idiotic?

Starscream
2009-07-06, 07:14 AM
You say nothing about ethics, right? And, considering the Doctor would probably abhor (most of) Batman's methods, the Doctor goes back in time to save Bruce's parents from getting killed. Bruce does not become Batman in the future. And there is no fighting between the Doctor and Batman.

There are no problems. Ever. If Time Travel is an ability.

Batman may go around clocking criminals with a batarang, but he hasn't engaged in near the levels of violence that the Doctor has. It pretty much takes genocide or the murder of innocents to faze our favorite Time Lord these days.

And he's done both of those when the situation required it, although never without regret. No way would he have an ethical problem with beating people up and sending them to Arkham. Heck, there's another thread going on right now in which people are debating whether he would do what Batman won't and kill the Joker.

As for time travel, he won't go back and change the past. Ever. Too easy to destabilize the future. Except for funny parlor tricks that don't matter ("Red bicycle when you were twelve!") And considering how many times Batman has saved the entire world, rescuing his parents is not an option.

Revlid
2009-07-06, 11:39 AM
Dalek:"EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
The Big Red Cheese: "That tickled."

Dalek: "EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
The Big Red Cheese: "Please. I'm invincible, your lasers can't harm-"
*interesting side-note for readers: Dalek weaponry actually mostly consists of atomic scramblers, which would be entirely unaffected by the toughness of the material they are used against*
The Big Red Cheese: "AAARGARBLEBLARGLEAAArgh!"

The Justice League has literal gods on its side. The Doctor has killed literal gods in the past (including Satan. Multiple iterations, iirc). The Doctor is worshipped as a god in a number of galaxies. The Doctor is a creature who burnt an intergalatic empire of entities that could tow planets for their own amusement. The Doctor is, was, and shall be.

Batman is an extremely well-trained vigilante with psychological trauma and a scary costume. He's a memetic badass, but that simply isn't good enough here.

Mind you, I'm not entirely sure what either could do to the other. The moral codes and personal authority of each character are such that they can't kill each other, or put each other away. What's the goal here? What's the motivation.

Just as we put the Doctor up against the Joker, a better matchup would be Batman up against the Master.

Devonix
2009-07-06, 07:16 PM
I seriously doubt One Dalek could take on the JLA. Hell one Dalek couldn't even handle batman. He's got one of their corpses kept in study from a previous mission in the Batcave.

Cheesegear
2009-07-06, 11:44 PM
Batman may go around clocking criminals with a batarang, but he hasn't engaged in near the levels of violence that the Doctor has. It pretty much takes genocide or the murder of innocents to faze our favorite Time Lord these days.

Fair enough. I'd say the Ex Machina Device Sonic Screwdriver disables any and all of Batman's gadgets. Yeah...I don't understand how it disables/enables mechanical objects either, but it does.

Batman loses. Because the Doctor can't.

chiasaur11
2009-07-06, 11:57 PM
Dalek: "EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
The Big Red Cheese: "Please. I'm invincible, your lasers can't harm-"
*interesting side-note for readers: Dalek weaponry actually mostly consists of atomic scramblers, which would be entirely unaffected by the toughness of the material they are used against*
The Big Red Cheese: "AAARGARBLEBLARGLEAAArgh!"


Magic.

With Marvel, conventional arms tend to run into a solid wall of handwavium.

Besides, if the Wisdom of Solomon doesn't provide tactics better than "Get hit"...

Well, somebody's wisdom is overrated, all I'm saying.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-07, 12:06 AM
Fair enough. I'd say the Ex Machina Device Sonic Screwdriver disables any and all of Batman's gadgets. Yeah...I don't understand how it disables/enables mechanical objects either, but it does.

Batman loses. Because the Doctor can't.

You think he needs gadgets?

His enemies once stripped him of all his gadgets. Had him beaten. And literally buried him alive.

Didn't stop him.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 12:41 AM
It would probably turn out to be something really dumb, like Daleks not being resistant to Nth metal.

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 01:32 AM
Apparently I really haven't watched enough Dr. Who (and given the enormity of the series I never will) but I seem to be missing what makes him so damn awesome. Outside the TARDIS he's a very intelligent eccentric with a very cool screwdriver and what amounts to a few do-over lives. All The God Damn Batman has to do is catch him outside the TARDIS, because really that booth seems to be the source of all his power. He can't time travel under his own power (that I know of) and his SOP when confronted by the monster of the week is to run away and either lock or unlock a door/control panel/space toilet with the sonic ex machina. Batarang that Screwdriver out of his hands and I don't think we really need to debate who wins in a hand to hand fight.

I mean hells, you don't need batman to defeat the Doctor, you need a man with a gun and the competence to actually shoot the bastard before he flees. He's not really crazy prepared at all, he runs away and improvises.

Demons_eye
2009-07-07, 02:46 AM
The Doctor has killed literal gods in the past (including Satan. Multiple iterations, iirc).

I am sorry but you fail to mention that he was chained to a wall and all he could do was scream at the doctor.


If it came to a fight then batman wins, hes better trained then the doctor in a fight and has better weapons. Granted the doctor could make a weapon but I dont think he would.

If it comes down to a race of some sorts (first to get the clues and disable the bomb) or some thing that relies only on intelligences then the doctor wins.

Viv
2009-07-07, 04:32 AM
Batarang that Screwdriver out of his hands and I don't think we really need to debate who wins in a hand to hand fight.

Actually, you do. The Doctor is much more than he seems, even when it comes to hand to hand combat. Just because he rarely chooses to exercise his martial capabilities does not mean that they do not exist.

The Third Doctor, as portrayed by John Pertwee, is known to have practiced alien martial arts in some depth.

We also know that the Doctor, as a Time Lord, has distinctly different physiology from humans, and possesses unusual resilience and strength, as well as psychic powers.

They also have a peculiar relationship with time itself, and I have always hypothesized that much of the Doctor's success is related to this. Despite Wikipedia not being canonical, I'll quote something from the Time Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Lord) entry anyway because it's instructive:


The Tenth Doctor also mentions to Donna Noble, in the episode "The Fires of Pompeii", that Time Lords can perceive the past, present, and all possible futures simultaneously (as the Ninth Doctor told Rose Tyler in "The Parting of the Ways").

One of the implications of this is that the Doctor likely has the ability to perceive which of the possible actions he can currently take will result in the optimal outcome. Alternatively, he may just get flashes of intuition that nudge him in the right direction. Either way, this is a rather powerful ability, one even the Batman would not take lightly.

This is also likely why trying to shoot the Doctor is often not as simple as pointing the gun and pulling the trigger.

We really just don't know enough about the Doctor in this regard to evaluate it fairly.

horngeek
2009-07-07, 04:50 AM
he's a very intelligent eccentric with a very cool screwdriver and what amounts to a few do-over lives.

You've just summed up what makes him so awesome. Have a cookie.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2009/06/chocolate_chip_cookie.jpg

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-07, 04:52 AM
Batman sprays him with his Time Lord repellent spray (http://www.66batman.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/shark-repellant-bat-spray-batman.jpg) which he prepared precisely 9,001 years in the future and sent back to himself to induce a paradox should the cycle be interrupted. The Doctor loses because it's the goddamn Batman.

Revlid
2009-07-07, 07:13 AM
Magic.
Sufficiently advanced technology.


Besides, if the Wisdom of Solomon doesn't provide tactics better than "Get hit"...

Well, somebody's wisdom is overrated, all I'm saying.
Given that Solomon's most famous bit of wisdom consisted of cutting a baby in half, I'm fully prepared to agree. Also, Wisdom seldom helps you avoid lasers any more than common sense.

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 11:00 AM
Actually, you do. The Doctor is much more than he seems, even when it comes to hand to hand combat. Just because he rarely chooses to exercise his martial capabilities does not mean that they do not exist.

The Third Doctor, as portrayed by John Pertwee, is known to have practiced alien martial arts in some depth.


Well yes, we could speculate that he's a better fighter than Batman the same way that we could speculate that he's really been packing a .45 this whole time and just never used it. We know that Batman is one of (if not the) best martial artists on the planet, and while it is conceivable that the Doctor know some alien technique that blows all of Batman's training out of the water there's no evidence that he does, so why bother bringing it into the discussion?



One of the implications of this is that the Doctor likely has the ability to perceive which of the possible actions he can currently take will result in the optimal outcome. Alternatively, he may just get flashes of intuition that nudge him in the right direction. Either way, this is a rather powerful ability, one even the Batman would not take lightly.

This is also likely why trying to shoot the Doctor is often not as simple as pointing the gun and pulling the trigger.


Or more realistically this simply means that the doctor knows what will happen, not that he can do a damn thing about it. He knows that one of his possible futures involves getting roundhoused before he makes it to the TARDIS, and whaddya know, in comes Bats with his head kicking boots on. The only reason it's harder to shoot the Doctor than anyone else is that the Doctor has only ever run into people with reaction times longer than commercial breaks. He survives on the same plot armor that keeps bats from being picked off by a trained marksman with a 20mm anti tank rifle. It's not simple to gun him down because if it were the series would end the first time he got mugged in Oakland.

Don't get me wrong, the Doctor is cool and make no mistake, I just don't think he's nearly as powerful as some people make him out to be.

Friv
2009-07-07, 11:18 AM
It's not simple to gun him down because if it were the series would end the first time he got mugged in Oakland.

Watch it from 7:30 on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqblaWWkheA) ;)

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-07, 11:18 AM
Given that Solomon's most famous bit of wisdom consisted of cutting a baby in half, I'm fully prepared to agree.

Actually that little tidbit is rather ingenious. He knew the mother would care for the baby but the thief would only view it as money. Dead or alive, the thief would have gotten paid but the mother would rather her baby be alive than dead. Move to harm the baby and the real mother reveals herself.

GoC
2009-07-07, 11:36 AM
Yeah, the Doctor's allies may not be able to help, but nothing's stopping the Doctor from jumping into the TARDIS and traveling somewhere or somewhen that he couldn't be reached.
Why doesn't he use his time machine to correct every threat that happens every episode?

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 11:37 AM
Actually that little tidbit is rather ingenious. He knew the mother would care for the baby but the thief would only view it as money. Dead or alive, the thief would have gotten paid but the mother would rather her baby be alive than dead. Move to harm the baby and the real mother reveals herself.

Amusingly Bats himself tried this exact line of reasoning in the No Man's Land arc with less than stellar results. He approached two bickering women fighting over a baby in the ruins and literally thinks to himself "I can use the Wisdom of Solomon to resolve this dispute." he proceeds to offer Solomon's ultimatum and both women simply look at him as if he were crazy. He eventually just gets them to agree to raise the child together.


Why doesn't he use his time machine to correct every threat that happens every episode?

Because time travel has rarely ever been handled properly in fiction (in fact the only good instance I've ever read was in Anathem and to a lesser extent in the latest couple of Artemis Fowel books) and its introduction into a series is almost without exception terminally stupid. Dr. Who is a series that is founded on bad time travel, what do you expect?

chiasaur11
2009-07-07, 11:43 AM
The Third Doctor, as portrayed by John Pertwee, is known to have practiced alien martial arts in some depth.


Actually, that's not an edge on Batman at all. Every heard of Val Armorr, the Karate Kid? Master of every martial art known to man or alien, and so good at each of them that he was admitted to the Legion of (Incredibly picky) Super-Heroes on skill. We're talking the best there is, was, or will be in martial arts. The year 3000 would never see better, let alone an earlier time.

Batman fought him.

It was a tie.

Starscream
2009-07-07, 03:56 PM
Amusingly Bats himself tried this exact line of reasoning in the No Man's Land arc with less than stellar results. He approached two bickering women fighting over a baby in the ruins and literally thinks to himself "I can use the Wisdom of Solomon to resolve this dispute." he proceeds to offer Solomon's ultimatum and both women simply look at him as if he were crazy. He eventually just gets them to agree to raise the child together.

I remember that issue. No Man's Land was great. Why do all the crossovers have to suck now?

kpenguin
2009-07-07, 03:58 PM
What do you have against 52? That didn't suck. That didn't suck at all.

chiasaur11
2009-07-07, 04:01 PM
What do you have against 52? That didn't suck. That didn't suck at all.

Well, at all may be an exaggeration, as the Steel plotline was a bit weak, and Vic Sage biting it is lame, but on the whole I agree.

Viv
2009-07-07, 05:11 PM
We know that Batman is one of (if not the) best martial artists on the planet, and while it is conceivable that the Doctor know some alien technique that blows all of Batman's training out of the water there's no evidence that he does, so why bother bringing it into the discussion?

Because there are people who are saying that the Batman is hands down better. My point is that you know what the Batman is capable in this regard, but you don't with the Doctor.

In fact, you know that the Doctor has some capability in this regard, but you just don't have any information on it.

As such, it's dishonest to say, "Oh, the Batman will certainly win hand to hand combat." You just don't have enough information to draw that conclusion.


Or more realistically this simply means that the doctor knows what will happen, not that he can do a damn thing about it. He knows that one of his possible futures involves getting roundhoused before he makes it to the TARDIS, and whaddya know, in comes Bats with his head kicking boots on. The only reason it's harder to shoot the Doctor than anyone else is that the Doctor has only ever run into people with reaction times longer than commercial breaks. He survives on the same plot armor that keeps bats from being picked off by a trained marksman with a 20mm anti tank rifle. It's not simple to gun him down because if it were the series would end the first time he got mugged in Oakland.

The in-world mechanism for the Doctor's plot armor, in my opinion, is this Time Sense. If you watch the series as much as I have, you'll notice that, like the Batman, the Doctor is always in the right place at the right time with the right tool and technique to save the day.

The Batman does this through meticulous, clever planning. The Doctor seems to do it by pure happenstance. But it happens too often for it to be pure luck, in my opinion. Enter Time Sense.

Now, none of this leads up to a clear statement that the Doctor will defeat Batman in hand to hand combat. All I am trying to do is point out that, if you're honest, there is enough information to say, "You know, we really don't know what the Doctor's capabilities are in this area. Let's jot this one down as, 'Unknown.'"

Otogi
2009-07-07, 05:49 PM
Batman wins.

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 06:05 PM
I remember that issue. No Man's Land was great. Why do all the crossovers have to suck now?

I haven't gotten my hands on 52 yet, but personally DC started to slump for me when Cassandra became evil for no readily apparent reason, despite being the only member of the Bat Fam I could really empathize with (yeah yeah I know, out of all the people in the group I empathize with the mute asian girl the most, bite me.) On the upside it was that character assassination that got me reading Punisher MAX, so there's an upside to everything I guess.

Back on subject, given that Batman apparently battled a dude who knows every form of martial art in the universe to a standstill (thank you much Chiasaur for your ever useful expansive comic-fu) I think we really can safely say he would hand the Doctor his ass in a fistfight.

chiasaur11
2009-07-07, 06:16 PM
I haven't gotten my hands on 52 yet, but personally DC started to slump for me when Cassandra became evil for no readily apparent reason, despite being the only member of the Bat Fam I could really empathize with (yeah yeah I know, out of all the people in the group I empathize with the mute asian girl the most, bite me.) On the upside it was that character assassination that got me reading Punisher MAX, so there's an upside to everything I guess.

Back on subject, given that Batman apparently battled a dude who knows every form of martial art in the universe to a standstill (thank you much Chiasaur for your ever useful expansive comic-fu) I think we really can safely say he would hand the Doctor his ass in a fistfight.

Yup.

Brave and the Bold, current comic, issue five. Mark Waid, George Perez. I highly recommend tracking it down.

Interestingly, Batman has fought Captain America twice. First time Bats won by dumb luck (barely), second time, they called off the fight when Batman said it was possible Cap would win...

But the fight would last for days. (I think. Anyone got JLA vs. Avengers to confirm the length?)

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 06:34 PM
Yup.

Brave and the Bold, current comic, issue five. Mark Waid, George Perez. I highly recommend tracking it down.

Interestingly, Batman has fought Captain America twice. First time Bats won by dumb luck (barely), second time, they called off the fight when Batman said it was possible Cap would win...

But the fight would last for days. (I think. Anyone got JLA vs. Avengers to confirm the length?)

I think Bats said something along the lines of "It could go on like this for a week", for me the best part of those books were the Supes V. Thor fight. Batman taking some time out to pummel the Punisher off screen hurt, but in a good way, because it fit the character. The of course there's the panel of Superman with Cap's shield in one hand and Mjolnir in the other. That's one of the only moments when I've actually liked the big blue bastard.

Viv
2009-07-07, 06:41 PM
Back on subject, given that Batman apparently battled a dude who knows every form of martial art in the universe to a standstill (thank you much Chiasaur for your ever useful expansive comic-fu) I think we really can safely say he would hand the Doctor his ass in a fistfight.

snort, and Batman's never been beaten in hand to hand combat by someone with less martial skills than that? Someone with say, perhaps superhuman strength, and superhuman stamina? And let's toss in some low level precognitive abilities on top of it.

Verruckt
2009-07-07, 06:51 PM
snort, and Batman's never been beaten in hand to hand combat by someone with less martial skills than that? Someone with say, perhaps superhuman strength, and superhuman stamina? And let's toss in some low level precognitive abilities on top of it.

Batman has been beaten in fistfights by the likes of superman, Bane and Killer Kroc to be sure. Bane took him out after Bats had dealt with the entirety of Arkham, Kroc managed it when he was in a more bestial nasty form during Hush, and Superman is freaking Superman. Seeing as how Batman can handle Cassandra in a fight, and she's got what amounts to fight precognition, let alone a host of superheroes far more powerful than the Doctor. So yes, Batman has lost to people less skilled than the Karate Kid, but not to my knowledge has he ever fallen to someone at the Doctor's power level. The Doctor has two hearts and a modest amount of super stamina, he is not a match for Bats in a fistfight.

Viv
2009-07-07, 06:56 PM
Well, you will get me to admit that Batman is the likely winner in this case, but I still maintain that there isn't enough information on the Doctor to state it with certainty.

That said, my expectation is that more than likely even if Batman won such a fight, it would result in the Doctor's ultimate victory. The Doctor usually doesn't get into fights like that without knowing what the end game is.

Well, unless it's the Master, but then the Master has the same advantages as the Doctor, less a little scientific genius plus a little psychic ability.

Devonix
2009-07-07, 07:42 PM
Batman is a very good Martial Artist. hell one of the best that the DCU has. One of the best. He is in no way though the top of the heap or indeed even in the top 5. Its one of the reason's he's got so many gasses and other such trickery to compensate for going up against better fighters than him.

Hell Superman without his powers has beaten Batman in hand to hand fighting.

I'd put Richard Dragon at or very close to the top. not counting Karate Kid who is so much better than everyone else its not even funny.

Devonix
2009-07-07, 07:43 PM
Batman himself admits that Wonderwoman is the Best Mele fighter in the world. Though he's including weapon skills in his description not just hand to hand.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 08:28 PM
If your plan to beat the Doctor is fist-a-cuffs you've already lost. The Doctor just hasn't explained how yet.

Salty
2009-07-07, 08:42 PM
*snip*

The Doctor Batman loses because it's the goddamn Batman Doctor.

FIxed it for you. :smallbiggrin:

Starscream
2009-07-07, 11:29 PM
DC started to slump for me when Cassandra became evil for no readily apparent reason, despite being the only member of the Bat Fam I could really empathize with

The editors realized that they had made a mistake when they checked their e-mail the next day and their computers melted from the heat.

Bottom line, she's fixed now and the suits are trying to pretend it never happened. Most fans are happy to accommodate them.

Verruckt
2009-07-08, 12:57 AM
The editors realized that they had made a mistake when they checked their e-mail the next day and their computers melted from the heat.

Bottom line, she's fixed now and the suits are trying to pretend it never happened. Most fans are happy to accommodate them.

Praise Xenu, now there's a retcon I can get behind.

factotum
2009-07-08, 01:41 AM
Why doesn't he use his time machine to correct every threat that happens every episode?

Because really nasty things can happen if history is changed--see the episode "Father's Day" from the first of the revamped Dr. Who series for an example.

Viv
2009-07-08, 02:19 AM
It's more complicated than that. According to my understanding of Doctor Who physics, if you "experience" a sequence of time, it becomes fixed relative to you. You can't change such fixed sequences of time without introducing rather nasty paradoxes.

So, you can in fact change history, but only history you weren't and have never been present for.

Salty
2009-07-08, 02:24 AM
It's more complicated than that. According to my understanding of Doctor Who physics, if you "experience" a sequence of time, it becomes fixed relative to you. You can't change such fixed sequences of time without introducing rather nasty paradoxes.

So, you can in fact change history, but only history you weren't and have never been present for.

That sounds right to me. :smallsmile:

Indon
2009-07-09, 07:11 AM
Another thing: Don't Time Lords get significantly more supertech-power stuff than the Doctor has manifested, implying that the Doctor doesn't use it mostly because he's a bit crazy and has probably blocked it off?

We might consider the possibility of those blocks wearing thin during such a conflict.

Verruckt
2009-07-09, 02:50 PM
Another thing: Don't Time Lords get significantly more supertech-power stuff than the Doctor has manifested, implying that the Doctor doesn't use it mostly because he's a bit crazy and has probably blocked it off?

We might consider the possibility of those blocks wearing thin during such a conflict.

Well, yes, much in the same way that we might consider that the thing that keeps Bats from just breaking the necks or crushing the windpipes of every criminal he meets might wear thin. We consider it in the way that we shouldn't, because it's entirely hypothetical and pointless to do so.

factotum
2009-07-10, 01:50 AM
Another thing: Don't Time Lords get significantly more supertech-power stuff than the Doctor has manifested

I don't see that they do. If they DID then the Master would be using those powers, because he sure as heck has no compunction about collateral damage or other pesky issues that might cause him to hold back. As things stand, the Master's bestest power we've ever seen him use is his ability to hypnotise people into doing stuff they wouldn't normally do!

No, Time Lords are somewhat stronger and more resilient than your average human, but their main advantages are their superhuman intellect and their technological advantage over pretty much everybody.