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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-05, 03:56 PM
Yep, he's dead, killed by Darkseid in Final Crisis.

But he was badass enough to kill Darkseid too.

kpenguin
2009-07-05, 03:59 PM
No he's not.

Batman is still patrolling the city of Gotham. He looks a bit smaller though... and Robin looks different too.

Bruce Wayne was sent into the far distant past.

Hannes
2009-07-05, 04:00 PM
Not following Batman, though isn't this kinda spoiler-ish?

kamikasei
2009-07-05, 04:10 PM
...Is this in addition to having been "killed off" in Batman RIP a while back? I mean... fool me once, shame on me...

averagejoe
2009-07-05, 04:13 PM
Oh, no, a superhero died, this will be completely permanent.

Jibar
2009-07-05, 04:21 PM
Oh, no, a superhero died, this will be completely permanent.

Funny you say that, actually.
Seems like Bruce is going to be coming back as a Black Lantern

...come to think of it I don't actually know if that's a spoiler or not.
It's really hard to tell what is with continuing series comics.

Rutskarn
2009-07-05, 04:21 PM
Yeah. He's coming right the hell back.

Seriously, I give him four months at the outside.

EDIT: @ Jibar:

If so, I give him another 4 months before he becomes Batman again.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 04:24 PM
Well, Superman took an entire year to come back, did he not? So cut Batman some slack. Maybe DC can pull it for two years before they need the extra sales.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 04:25 PM
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/BatmanDeath1.jpg
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/WarForCowl.jpg

Starscream
2009-07-05, 05:14 PM
He's not really dead. Sure, his body was killed and his soul sent elsewhere, but in comic books this is not the same as dead.

DC isn't even pretending that this is permanent. They have a story they want to tell that requires him being kaput, they'll tell it, they'll bring him back in time for his next movie to boost sales.

At least they're being honest with us. Marvel is still pretending that Cap is gone and that Peter won't be married again as soon as they can distract Quesada with something shiny.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-05, 05:16 PM
Marvel is still pretending that Cap is gone and that Peter won't be married again as soon as they can distract Quesada with something shiny.

Man, the mental image of keeping Quesada from editing Marvel writers by holding a shiny penny before his face is just too funny for words.

Faceist
2009-07-05, 05:25 PM
"Looka the ball! Looka the ball! Go get it! Go get it, boy!"

alchemyprime
2009-07-05, 05:26 PM
... I just hope we don't get a "Batman: Rebirth" out of this...

Yes, it was a great idea for Green Lantern and Flash. Hell, I can see a "Blue Beetle: Rebirth" down the road too.

But please, no "Batman: Rebirth." Unless they called it "Batman: Reawakening" or something...

Hm...

WalkingTarget
2009-07-05, 05:30 PM
Something telling about recent history, when I saw the thread title I thought it was reporting that Adam West had died (he hasn't, at least wikipedia hasn't heard about it yet if he has).

Mando Knight
2009-07-05, 05:45 PM
Marvel is still pretending that Cap is gone

Actually... Steve Rogers is making a comeback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America:_Reborn).

Berserk Monk
2009-07-05, 05:54 PM
Yep, he's dead, killed by Darkseid in Final Crisis.

But he was badass enough to kill Darkseid too.

Um, he's a comic book character. Name me one comic book character that's died and wasn't brought back (either by being resurrected by magic/technology/cloning/whatever or by just creating new story arcs that ignored the fact he/she's died).* I mean, Captain America died and I heard he's being brought back.


*Characters from limited series such as Watchmen don't count.

Cracklord
2009-07-05, 05:55 PM
I've always thought it must be great to go to Super hero comic heaven. Just Uncle Ben, wandering the clouds, totally alone.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 05:56 PM
Uncle Ben.
Gwen Stacy.

Cracklord
2009-07-05, 05:57 PM
She came back.
So did Jason Todd.
Uncle Ben is the only one who has consistently stayed dead.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-05, 05:58 PM
Uncle Ben is the only one who has consistently stayed dead.

Walter Kovas
Edward Blake

Cracklord
2009-07-05, 06:00 PM
Eddie has been thought to be dead tonnes of times, and been brought back. Though he hasn't been bought back for a long time.

cnsvnc
2009-07-05, 07:17 PM
I'm betting he won't be resurrected. 10 gold says it'll be retconned instead.

WitchSlayer
2009-07-05, 07:18 PM
Batman's parents
Jor-El

But to the point, I'm kind of glad Bruce is in the past. **** as Batman is very interesting and fun.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 07:32 PM
Batman's parents
Jor-El

But to the point, I'm kind of glad Bruce is in the past. **** as Batman is very interesting and fun.

I'd find it more interesting if it was going to stick.

My opinion is that comic universes (DC, Marvel, etc.) should work in a clear cyclical basis.

You start with origin stories of classic characters. Batman, Superman, etc.

You try to keep to a rough passage of time that matches with actual years. Characters age (unless they're abnormally long-lived, or ageless entirely). Sidekicks become partners, become legacy replacements (the Flash did this decently, for a while at least.).

After, say, 30-40 years, you close things up. Happy ending, sad ending, open ending, whatever. You stop there.

Then you start again. Whole new generation of writers and readers, whole fresh look at the characters. If old readers don't like stuff, they have decades of story to fall back on and enjoy.

It'll never happen, but that's what I'd love to have happen, roughly speaking. Death and resurrection would be rare, if occurring at all.

Salty
2009-07-05, 07:36 PM
Walter Kovas
Edward Blake

The original point was in Super Hero Comic Heaven.

As much as I like Kovacs, it's debatable whether or not he would be there, and Edward Blake is definitely out.

Please don't turn this into a religious debate.

averagejoe
2009-07-05, 07:47 PM
Walter Kovas
Edward Blake


*Characters from limited series such as Watchmen don't count.

Haha, what?

WitchSlayer
2009-07-05, 07:53 PM
I'd find it more interesting if it was going to stick.

My opinion is that comic universes (DC, Marvel, etc.) should work in a clear cyclical basis.

You start with origin stories of classic characters. Batman, Superman, etc.

You try to keep to a rough passage of time that matches with actual years. Characters age (unless they're abnormally long-lived, or ageless entirely). Sidekicks become partners, become legacy replacements (the Flash did this decently, for a while at least.).

After, say, 30-40 years, you close things up. Happy ending, sad ending, open ending, whatever. You stop there.

Then you start again. Whole new generation of writers and readers, whole fresh look at the characters. If old readers don't like stuff, they have decades of story to fall back on and enjoy.

It'll never happen, but that's what I'd love to have happen, roughly speaking. Death and resurrection would be rare, if occurring at all.

Interesting, a friend has actually suggested an alternate universe where just this happens. I think it would be a great exercise.

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 07:57 PM
Interesting, a friend has actually suggested an alternate universe where just this happens. I think it would be a great exercise.

In some ways, Ultimate Marvel is a step in this direction.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was also such a step, back in the day.

It's just that things keep looping way back, continuity-wise.

Before Final Crisis actually came out, the marketing almost sounded like it would end with a major reboot.

I was disappointed in many ways.

This idea also would be the "main universe". Elseworlds and such could always happen as one-shots or short series in the company.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-05, 08:57 PM
he also died in crimson mist. so did all the badguys but you don't see them dead.

Nevrmore
2009-07-05, 09:54 PM
She came back.
Didn't she only come back as a clone made by The Jackal?

Foeofthelance
2009-07-05, 10:19 PM
So wait, how the heck did he die then? Final Crisis ended with Metatron (the dude in the flying time traveling chair) dying of old age in front of Bruce Wayne back in the paleolithic era. This is after Grant Morrison (at least I think it was Grant Morrison) also retired him at the end of "Batman R.I.P.", and Richard Grayson is supposed to have taken up the cowl. Either way, Bruce Wayne never died. He's either in hiding (Word of God on that one) or trapped in the past. So how is he supposed to be coming back for Blackest Night?

(And no, I don't see a point to spoilering either. These issues have been out in TPB for at least a month as far as I can tell, so it should be fair game by this point.)

KnightDisciple
2009-07-05, 10:21 PM
He was hit with "Omega Sanction". It seemingly kills a body, sending the soul on to increasingly worse alternate universes or some such. I think each new "trip" ends with death.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-06, 02:40 AM
...But... isn't he just on the way to come back? I only read Bats off and on, and definitely not all titles, but... I thought Battle For the Cowl was the leadup to him coming back...

Oooh now I am so shocked I will... Not read any more batman until this straightens out.

Cheesegear
2009-07-06, 04:00 AM
You try to keep to a rough passage of time that matches with actual years. Characters age (unless they're abnormally long-lived, or ageless entirely). Sidekicks become partners, become legacy replacements (the Flash did this decently, for a while at least.).

John Constantine ages. In real time too! Although he is one of the only ones who does so. Grayson became Nightwing, a hero in his own right, and is now the new Batman. Because, seriously; Grayson is awesome. Pity his first name would get asterix'd out on this board.

A bunch of people died in Final Crisis...Most of them look like they're coming back as Black Lanterns though.

Yep. Kid Flash became 'real' Flash. But...Yeah. Barry came back. Lame. And Bucky is new the new Captain. Although, Steve is coming back, but, who's to say Bucky will hand it over?

Rick Jones - sidekick extraordinaire - often turns out to be a hero in his own right too.


Then you start again. Whole new generation of writers and readers, whole fresh look at the characters. If old readers don't like stuff, they have decades of story to fall back on and enjoy.

That's where you're wrong. Since 'decades of story' is old. Fans crave the new stuff. If the new stuff is crap, the 'core fanbase' gets angry and leaves. Cash drops. The comic suffers.

Deaths don't stick for one reason; Profit margins. DC wouldn't do that to their Flagship Comic (Batman > Superman, right?). There's far too much money to lose. And making a 'new' hero with a new spin...That's just a cheap imitation of Batman, and probably would never sell as well.

Ohgodtherats
2009-07-06, 04:59 AM
I said this in the other thread but I'll repeat for clarity (and for posting it in the right dang place for once):

Batman "died" in the same storyline/event that culminated in Superman meeting the Zoo Crew, including Captain Carrot and Yankee Poodle. Seriously. They show up, not just in the background but as a final plot twist 8 pages before Final Crisis "wraps up". (Does not include spin-offs, post-crisis kickoffs, and other DC tailgate parties.) If Final Crisis includes THOSE characters, I'm pretty sure it'll be easy for mainstream DC to come up with an easy alternate dimension Batman or some such fun.

Really though. The Zoo Crew totally overshadowed the Death of Batman for me.
Which is hilarious.
-Jared

WitchSlayer
2009-07-06, 05:45 AM
...But... isn't he just on the way to come back? I only read Bats off and on, and definitely not all titles, but... I thought Battle For the Cowl was the leadup to him coming back...

Oooh now I am so shocked I will... Not read any more batman until this straightens out.

It lead to Richard Grayson taking the cowl, and his book has been great so far. I'm sorry to say but bat-books were kind of sub-par before all this happened. And again, everyone, Batman isn't dead, he's just stuck in the past.

Just remember the Samurai Jack intro:
NOW HE SEEKS TO RETURN TO THE FUTURE AND UNDO THE PAST THAT IS DARKSEID!
Wait...

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-06, 05:54 AM
It lead to Richard Grayson taking the cowl, and his book has been great so far. I'm sorry to say but bat-books were kind of sub-par before all this happened. And again, everyone, Batman isn't dead, he's just stuck in the past.

Ah.
Of course how far back is "sub-par"? Like all popular comics Bats have suffered from over-exposure, re-writes and run-of-the-mill uninspired writing in periods.

Now I am more concerned with the fact that they never manages to decide how much of a croc Killer Croc actually is...

Oh and I must admit that I have not read Bats regulary since before Oracle (which is one of the reasons I liked the Batman Confidential run with the original Batgirl. The other one is... You know).

Dienekes
2009-07-06, 08:09 AM
It lead to Richard Grayson taking the cowl, and his book has been great so far. I'm sorry to say but bat-books were kind of sub-par before all this happened.

Yah-huh-wahhh???

Wait, someone likes what Grant Morrison has done? I'm sorry, this is new to me.

And really, Year One, DKR, Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Arkham Asylum, Joker (ok debatable if it's a Batman comic but still). Sub-par you say?

Well I guess everyone deserves to have an opinion.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-06, 08:18 AM
Yah-huh-wahhh???

Wait, someone likes what Grant Morrison has done? I'm sorry, this is new to me.

And really, Year One, DKR, Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Arkham Asylum, Joker (ok debatable if it's a Batman comic but still). Sub-par you say?

Well I guess everyone deserves to have an opinion.

Yeah, but those examples are one-shots/limited series. DC is typically pretty good about the usage of their IP in such things, but I think the observation was referring to the standard monthly titles.

Devonix
2009-07-06, 08:43 AM
Argh thought we settled this months ago. Bruce isn't dead. Flat out not dead. Before RIP During Final Crisis and After Final Crisis. Morrison went on record multiple times as saying he's not dead.

Omega Sanction is a non lethal attack Once you willpower yourself out of the cycle of lives it gives you, you return to your true form. He's not dead ok!

No one hit by Omega Sanction has ever died in the history of comics because it doesn't kill you. Its Like hitting someone with a beam that teleports you into a seemingly inescapable prison. or the bad version of a Lotus eater machine.

Dienekes
2009-07-06, 08:46 AM
Yeah, but those examples are one-shots/limited series. DC is typically pretty good about the usage of their IP in such things, but I think the observation was referring to the standard monthly titles.

Ahhh, my mistake then. And I'd agree that the monthlies have dragged, but that seemed true across board to me.

Thialfi
2009-07-06, 10:33 AM
The news of Batman's death reached the Marvel universe today. Jean Grey was reached for comment;

"Yeah, I ran into Bats yesterday. It's kinda sad. He is such a noob at this death thing. As an established veteran, I gave him a few pointers to help him out."

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-06, 10:39 AM
The news of Batman's death reached the Marvel universe today. Jean Grey was reached for comment;

"Yeah, I ran into Bats yesterday. It's kinda sad. He is such a noob at this death thing. As an established veteran, I gave him a few pointers to help him out."

Obligatory link. (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2009-06-10)

V Did you get ninja'd? You got ninja'd!

Telonius
2009-07-06, 10:39 AM
I was going to say something about this, but Aaron Williams got to it (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2009-06-10) a few weeks before I did.

Catch
2009-07-06, 10:52 AM
Argh thought we settled this months ago. Bruce isn't dead. Flat out not dead. Before RIP During Final Crisis and After Final Crisis. Morrison went on record multiple times as saying he's not dead.

Omega Sanction is a non lethal attack Once you willpower yourself out of the cycle of lives it gives you, you return to your true form. He's not dead ok!

No one hit by Omega Sanction has ever died in the history of comics because it doesn't kill you. Its Like hitting someone with a beam that teleports you into a seemingly inescapable prison. or the bad version of a Lotus eater machine.

This is important to note. But, being DC, teleporting a person's consciousness back in time is a more preferable means of dispatching a foe than, say, a bullet.

WitchSlayer
2009-07-06, 03:46 PM
Yah-huh-wahhh???

Wait, someone likes what Grant Morrison has done? I'm sorry, this is new to me.

And really, Year One, DKR, Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Arkham Asylum, Joker (ok debatable if it's a Batman comic but still). Sub-par you say?

Well I guess everyone deserves to have an opinion.

Most of those were in the 80's and 90's, not the 00's, and yes, I thought the Joker HC ranged from mediocre to bad, and while I like DKR I thought it was overrated.

And Grant Morrison wrote Arkham Asylum.

Dienekes
2009-07-06, 05:09 PM
Most of those were in the 80's and 90's, not the 00's, and yes, I thought the Joker HC ranged from mediocre to bad, and while I like DKR I thought it was overrated.

And Grant Morrison wrote Arkham Asylum.

As already stated I didn't connect that you were talking about recent monthlies which I agreed were going downhill across the board. I know GM wrote AA which is close to the only work of his I thought was pretty good (though I haven't read all of him so I can't say it was his only good one)

And I thought Joker was great. But then I'm biased.

Foeofthelance
2009-07-07, 09:39 AM
I said this in the other thread but I'll repeat for clarity (and for posting it in the right dang place for once):

Batman "died" in the same storyline/event that culminated in Superman meeting the Zoo Crew, including Captain Carrot and Yankee Poodle. Seriously. They show up, not just in the background but as a final plot twist 8 pages before Final Crisis "wraps up". (Does not include spin-offs, post-crisis kickoffs, and other DC tailgate parties.) If Final Crisis includes THOSE characters, I'm pretty sure it'll be easy for mainstream DC to come up with an easy alternate dimension Batman or some such fun.

Really though. The Zoo Crew totally overshadowed the Death of Batman for me.
Which is hilarious.
-Jared

It was Final Crisis. I remember seeing a quote somewhere (might have been on TVtropes) where Dan Dio basically said, "I have no idea what happened, but Grant Morrison assures me that it all makes sense and I TRUST him." I read the entire series, and most of the tie ins, and personally understand it no more than "Darkseid and friends bodyjack a lawyer and some superheroes". The last issue in its entirety just made no sense whatsoever...

Starscream
2009-07-07, 11:04 AM
Here's my take on recent events in comics:

DC
Countdown to Infinite Crisis: Good
Infinite Crisis: Not bad
52: Surprisingly awesome
Countdown: Completely pointless
Final Crisis: Oh god, make it stop!

Marvel
House of M: Stunk
Decimation: Stunk more
Civil War: Had its moments
World War Hulk: Utter garbage
Secret Invasion: My eyes! Arrgh!

A year ago I would have gone to the mattresses to defend DC as the better company. Now they seem determined to follow Marvel's mistakes.

I'll be glad when enough people stop buying crossovers that the companies stop writing them.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-07, 02:19 PM
Superman meeting the Zoo Crew, including Captain Carrot

If only this had been the adopted dwarf Carrot instead of the rabbit Carrot, then Final Crisis would have been totally redeemed.

Devonix
2009-07-07, 03:59 PM
The biggest problem of Final Crisis was that it was touted as a !!!Big Summer Event!!! When it wasn't. It was just the continuation of a story about the New gods and the DCU as envisioned by Morrison.

Everything that you needed to understand the story was out there but DC didn't tell people where to look. Coundown and Death of the New Gods were stories done without Morrison's input and threw off a ton of people.

To me Final Crisis was one of the most fun DC stories I'd read in years but only because I go to Gaia Online. and had a nice group of people in the forums helping me to find what I needed to make sense of the story before it started.



For people who knew what was going on most of them seemed to have fun, but DC didn't help you know it.